Athiests, why bother visiting insane Christian forums?

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Claire Evansposted 12 years ago
If somebody truly believed that Santa was God, I would not even bother addressing that person because the insane CANNOT be reasoned with.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless Santa actually was God. Your point is begging the question.
  
  If someone has personally seen and spoken with God, does that make them insane?
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @jaxon yes...psychiatrist can treat that person for the symptoms you mentioned...it is advisable for such person to take expert opinion...
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You assume that it didn't really happen. What if it did?
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the whole point is that contrary to a religious person's beliefs, there isn't any way that some god visited them but let babies die, let cities get destroyed from natural disasters etc.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Historically, God has confronted the people where their minds were at the time. Who is say how God should develop eternal humans?
  
  It was and is the sins of the people that caused all catastrophes. God allows because He gave us freedom of choice; chose God's Will or learn what happens if one or the people doesn't.
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seem like an intelligent person, I would love your opinions on this hub showing that we cannot have free will if we were actively created.
  
  <link snipped - no promotional links>
  
  Selfless self promotion? Yes. But it was God's will that this happened.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He types in multiple colors while not believing in the diversity of life; how sad...
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your useful and insightful comment, I enjoyed it almost as much as I did your hubs.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Idiot... You never visited all my hubs... Thanks anyway, troll...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. I have been shown the truth already.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Not necessarily. They could be schizophrenic, bipolar, a liar or they can be telling the truth. God is a very general term and could be defined in many different ways.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right, the important thing is, nobody but that person can know what their experience was. They might be crazy, but it might have really happened. A claim of religious experience doesn't equal insanity.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many sane people have claimed experiences with God.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True, many sane people also believe they are Napoleon.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really like who
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I claim experiences.
  
  Troubled lives in a world where billions of people are insane.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I do live in that world.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can see it now. Everyone is together in heaven after this life. Troubled is sitting in a corner, hugging his knees, and saying over and over again 'This isn't real. I'm going crazy. I need medication. This isn't real...'.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True dat.
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  many very wealthy people claim they believe in god also. the reason is because to claim to be an atheist in many cases would destroy their wealth as the people they make money off would quit supporting them. i no this for a fact.
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am a former Psychiatric Nurse, and I once nursed a man who believed he was Jesus Christ, and one who believed he was John the Baptist on the same ward! - They got on like a house on fire by the way. Best of friends. They were both, of course, barking mad, and yet "Jesus" had his followers who would visit him for his "wise words". The fact that he was incarcerated in a mental asylum seemed to be lost on them.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  so the insane blindly followed the insane
  
  somehow that makes sense in that situation.
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  ackman1465posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Santa is GOD????? Good grief, I was TOTALLY unawares of that!!!!
  
  What are you going to tell me next????..... that Judge Judy is Pontius Pilate????
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Love it.
  
  I started a thread years ago, called "fools debating with fools" (or something like that).
  It too, asked, "Why bother"?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Often times I do it just to get a good laugh.
  
  If they are stuck on themselves being right they usually slip and flip flop views on sub-categories.
  
  Happened just recently in dj's thread.. lol
  
  I admit it.. I laugh at some things they say.
  
  Like time isn't real.. lol. Or Einstein's work is nonsense.. What??
  
  Yep, you heard right. They know more than Einstein.
  
  And this JUST happened. That, and I hope once a few people go read some of it they start thinking.. It gives the unmotivated toward God to possibly search for Him.
  
  But mostly because the stuff they fabricate doesn't even exist in books and it's more like a comedy show.
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  No atheist to slam me on that one yet?
  
  The one I would have admitted to addressing incorrectly??
  
  Oh goodness.. I wonder sometimes.
  
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If an adult sincerely believed in Santa -- and this adult was otherwise entirely compos mentis -- then I don't know that I would try to dissuade him or her. If a handful of adults believed in Santa, then -- similarly -- I don't know that I would try to dissuade them. After all, there is nothing intrinsically destructive about believing in Santa, and a small number of folks believing something silly seldom has the capacity for harm. Further, a harmless belief doesn't generally become more dangerous as the number of adherents increase.
  
  Some atheists -- I'm unwilling to guess what percentage of them -- believe that believing in God is dangerous, hence they seek to reduce the numbers of theists in the world by the power of persuasion. Other atheists are also agnostics -- this describes myself -- and enjoy engaging with believers for the purpose of settling the question.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If an adult sincerely believed in Santa -- and this adult was otherwise entirely compos mentis -- then I don't know that I would try to dissuade him or her. If a handful of adults believed in Santa, then -- similarly -- I don't know that I would try to dissuade them. After all, there is nothing intrinsically destructive about believing in Santa, and a small number of folks believing something silly seldom has the capacity for harm. Further, a harmless belief doesn't generally become more dangerous as the number of adherents increase.
  
  Some atheists -- I'm unwilling to guess what percentage of them -- believe that believing in God is dangerous, hence they seek to reduce the numbers of theists in the world by the power of persuasion. Other atheists are also agnostics -- this describes myself -- and enjoy engaging with believers for the purpose of settling the question.
  
  I assume you don't think believers are insane because you engage with them previously stating that you would not engage with a person who was compos mentis. Therefore you would not contradict yourself.
  
  You are right, of course. You are thinking reasonably. Many atheists believe believing in God is dangerous although I don't see how Christianity is dangerous. There's a difference between a religion and extremists. AS you say, atheists hope to dissuade believers but if believers are insane, then it will be futile.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then tell us, is it futile, Claire?
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  Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please leave Santa, The Tooth Fairy, and ever-beloved Easter Bunny out of this. They're my friends.
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  lorlie6posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They're my GODS!
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Further, a harmless belief doesn't generally become more dangerous as the number of adherents increase". I can't agree with this - The more of them there are, (probability would suggest), the higher the likelyhood that the group will contain some nutters who will take the whole thing literally and be happy to fly airliners into skyscrapers for their "heavenly reward".
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus commanded His followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, and preach the Good News of the Kingdom.
  
  No planes crashing into buildings come as commands from Him, imagined or real.
  Please show a little common sense, and separate things that should be separate.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone taken a set of screwdrivers to a funeral lately?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Please show a little common sense, and separate things that should be separate.)
  
  aka-dj,
  
  This is not a debate about which irrational belief system produces the least violence - and it is unclear if the 50,000 that were tortured to death during the many different Christian Inquisitions over the centuries is a higher or lower body count than produced by Muslim or Hindu history.
  
  Common sense tells us that the problem is the irrational belief that any Santa is real, not a question of which fake Santa is best.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you tried it lately?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What, belief in Santa? No, not recently. I guess I do not have to ask about you, though.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, no, no!
  
  The hand and eye thing?
  
  Have you tried it lately?
  
  How did you go?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Jesus commanded His followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, and preach the Good News of the Kingdom.)
  
  aka-dj,
  
  How conveniently you omit the fact that Jesus in the sermon on the mount also called for self-mutilation to prevent a body part from sinning. If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out.
  
  I guess that is more love, peace, and common sense, eh? Of course, the practice would make it a lot easier to spot Christians - the ones with the eye patches.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All you just did was show your total ignorance of what Jesus taught.
  
  When you get the lesson, come back and tell all of us!
  
  Until then, all I can say is, !!
  
  I think you should have posted this in the other thread, the one about Atheist intelligence!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus taught??? Or you meant what is purported as jesus teachings?
  
  Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out.
  Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
  john 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you
  And you are doing all these?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pulling out of context.. WOW...
  
  I could make G-rated cartoons look like a horrer show with that trick..
  
  Forgot the parallels to the last one.. need more than one perspective, and it's recorded so no excuses..
  
  Oh wait, you don't understand what He's saying to find the parallels.
  
  My fault..
  
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is , always.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I had forgotten that Christians practiced ritual sacrifice..something which they blame others for..thanks for the reminder though
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We disaprove of human sacrifice..
  
  It was animals, and it has passed as Jesus is the eternal Holy Lamb of God.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is born a human.
  He then breaks a loaf of bread and passes it around saying "eat of my body"
  then he passes around wine and says "drink of my blood"
  the next day he is sacrificed on a cross.
  At least once year, sometimes more, sometimes less, his followers ritualistically repeat this.
  However this is in no way ritual cannibalism or ritual sacrifice.
  And I'm suppose to somehow believe this?
  
  So the Shepard is now a Lamb? That doesn't make much sense.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's why it's called Christianity.
  
  Me and my brothers and sisters see the sense and truth in it.
  
  We are believers.
  
  Those who say what you have said are called unbelievers.
  
  They are unbelievers and don't believe because it doesn't make sense to them.
  
  I kinda already knew you didn't think it made sense.
  
  But opinions are opinions.
  
  I read the Bible, and I know God through His Word. Jesus Christ.
  
  If it doesn't make sense then you might be missing some details, as many people through the years I have seen saved, and go from darkness to light.. as though someone turned on a switch and the room flooded with light and all the things they couldn't see, were now visible.
  
  Not saying that will happen to you, but I have seen it.
  
  I believe. And know. Jesus Christ lives and is the King of kings.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (We disaprove of human sacrifice.. It was animals, and it has passed as Jesus is the eternal Holy Lamb of God.)
  
  vector7,
  
  If god is omnipotent, then he could forgive sin without the need for any sacrifice; if sacrifice is a mandatory action that must be performed, then god is not omnipotent.
  
  So which is it? Is your god not omnipotent or is he just a sick bastard who likes to watch creatures get slaughtered?
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  Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  + 2
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  Wesman Todd Shawposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice analogy, but the technology existed in the 1960's to fly an air liner plane into the trade towers via remote control, and most likely, that is exactly how it happened.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (....I don't see how Christianity is dangerous.)
  
  Claire,
  
  If that is the case, you are ignoring history and misunderstanding the relationship between religions and power. It is disingenuous to simply claim that there was no conflict between David Koresh and Christianity because David was obviously not a "real Christian".
  
  This claim can be made of any person or group - by the same token it was not atheism that caused yada, yada, yadi because he wasn't a real atheist.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The gospels have never advocated violence. It is those who pervert Christianity that are dangerous but that doesn't make the religion itself dangerous.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which bible are you reading from, because I just found plenty of references to violence, including the one below:
  
  They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
  
  One doesn't really need to pervert anything when it is already written in plain English.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's not the gospels. The gospels are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. The Old Testament has so much violence in it that it makes my head spin.
  
  Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Gospels are any book in the bible marked "The Gospel According To [Name]"
  
  Jesus never said live by the sword, die by the sword. In fact the only thing that comes close is when Jesus says "turn the other cheek."
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 26:52 says:
  
  "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Must be using one of those newer translations. So much has been changed in the bible just in the last ten years it's ridiculous. I'll allude to him saying it though even though it's not in the copy that I posses.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which copy do you have?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1988 King James Version..same version I've had since I was kid. Plan on double checking it for that later on, but I don't remember it being in there.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's in my KJV, ESV, and NIV.
  
  1988.. is that a different kjv?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Check because the KJV does have that passage.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ahh I found it, it's slightly different though..mine reads:
  
  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
  
  Not a big difference, but a difference that was enough to throw me off. Sorry about that.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. Then ignore the comment I just wrote a minute ago.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (It is those who pervert Christianity that are dangerous but that doesn't make the religion itself dangerous.)
  
  Claire,
  
  Did you not read my post to you or did you simply choose to ignore the following (or, as is more likely, simply acknowledge by silence there is no good refutation)?
  
  quote: "It is disingenuous to simply claim that there was no conflict between David Koresh and Christianity because David was obviously not a 'real Christian'. "
  
  Any sect of any kind, any belief system can be excused from responsibility for any action simply by claiming, "he, she, or it perverted the belief."
  
  Don't blame authoritarian fascists - Hitler wasn't a real authoritarian fascist.
  
  But that does not solve the conundrum in the fact that there is no justification that explains why belief in supernatural superbeings in the aggragate has been responsible for humans committing atrocities against other humans for centuries. When we lump in the two primary relgions, Christianity and Islam, both based on belief in a supernatural superbeing, we get a clearer picture of the aggregate.
  
  Christians believe in their own version of the supernatural superbeing, with a different name from Islam, but Christians are accomplices to the furthering of the same basic irrational belief, supernatural superbeings, and thus Christians aid and abet all that is done in the name of all supernatural superbeings, Christian or otherwise.
  
  The differences among Christianity, Islam, Mormanism, and Hinduism is simply a matter of which evidence convinces you personally that particular belief is right - that they all accept the irrational notion of a supernatural superbeing is the heart of the conflict between them - then it becomes a matter of whose SuperGod reigns supreme.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that is a valid explanation! If you started a club for atheists discussing Christianity, etc, and how it is wrong and a radical atheist joins the club and advocates murdering Christian and stabs one to death, does that make your club evil? I should be clear what I mean by Christianity. It revolves around the ministry, crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ. Do not think I refer to Christianity that has been corrupted today, thanks to the Satanic Vatican.
  
  Hitler was another who perverted Christianity for his own gain.
  
  I don't see why you can't differentiate between the perversion of a religion and the actually religion itself. If Jesus advocated violence then it is another story altogether. The Koran promotes violence, though.
  
  Please...people must start taking responsibility for themselves. That's like saying Darwin caused the death of millions because Hitler believed that the theory of evolution meant the weeding out of the weak (the survival of the fittest) which would aid in the promoting of a superior race. Deformed animals do not survive in the wild so Hitler saw this as a reason why disabled people should be exterminated. If Darwin didn't theorize evolution, you could argue that the Holocaust would never happened.
  
  Christianity is the truth while the others are not. That's the difference. Sorry if you disagree.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is only the truth if you choose to accept it as such. There are many who disagree with that statement. But you reaffirmed that it is your belief. Which means that no matter what anyone has to say they are lying and only you can be right. You yourself have talked about those that are unreasonable and your belief, while you are sane, are unreasonable and uncompromising in your belief. Which by your own words, makes you a liar. So the question then becomes, are you a liar, or are you willing to accept that there is other rationale and reasoning out there?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The gospel of Jesus is the truth regardless of what anyone believe. I don't want to use the word Christianity because it is so perverted now it's disgusting.
  
  There's a difference between lying and just not knowing the truth. Most who says Jesus is not the Son of God are not doing it deliberating to deceive. They truly believe it is so.
  
  Should I lie and say Jesus is not the son of God when I know it is true?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hence, your belief outweighs anyone else belief. Contradict much?
  
  No, you don't know, that would be a lie. If we were to go by your logic, then everything and anything can be true as long as we believe it to be true.
  
  That has been shown to be entirely false.
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  Leafy Denposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is no such thing as "The Gospel of Jesus". The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The thing is, the Bible has been translated so many times by so many different people who thought they knew what the Bible was saying but, when it comes down to it, it is just somebody's interpretation. It is not truth. I would never say that Christians are necessary insane. Some may be but being a Christian doesn't necessarily mean being insane.
  
  I was raised Pentecostal. The worst thing about the way I was raised was that I wasn't allowed to ask questions. I was told that if I had doubts, it was the voice of Satan in my head! I was cautioned not to listen to anything that contradicted the way the Bible was interpreted in our church as it was always presumed to be false prophets. I was told that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was trash, even though there is clear evidence that evolution is a reality.
  
  Now, I look back and I see that most of this cautioning and barring and writing off scientific findings was control and fear-driven. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what was true. It is a desperate grasp on trying to ensure your life has meaning. At the point where I finally broke away, there was a period of limbo where I was an empty shell because too much of my entire life and purpose was wrapped up in that religion. Such a sad and pathetic way to live.
  
  As hard as it may be to accept, just because you believe something does not make it truth. Just because it is written in a book that claims to be the word of God does not make it truth. On the other hand, if you have a relationship with God or Jesus and you feel that God or Jesus is real in your heart, does it matter what other people think or say? Why do you have to convince others that what you believe is true in order for you to be convinced that it is true?
  
  If you are that strong in your faith, it should not matter whether someone calls you liar or tells you that you are insane. But, this reaction tells me that you aren't entirely sure that you believe what you claim you believe. Otherwise, it would not matter what anyone else says.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It means the gospels about Jesus. You know what I mean.
  
  How do you know it isn't the truth?
  
  You poor thing to be a Pentecostal. It is an oppressive denomination to not allow to discuss contradictions. God doesn't want mindless people being Christians.
  
  Absolutely.
  
  Just because people pervert the truth doesn't mean there isn't truth to it at all.
  
  Sorry to hear this.
  
  It is true that just because one believes something it doesn't make it true. It is all true that just because it is written in a book doesn't make it set in stone. I'm not one of those people who want to "save souls". I am so grateful for the gift I have I wish others could have it, too. This is a forum that discusses religion and thus we have people interested in the topic. What can be learnt if we didn't share our experiences with one another?
  
  Actually, them calling believers liars or insane when it is not true can put them off a faith in Christ because they don't want to be called those things. It also gives me the opportunity to actually make people who make those accusations rethink their stance. It makes them think, hopefully.
  
  Having said that, I most certainly do not go to bed at night crying because they call me those things simply because it is not true, although it is not true that someone secure in their beliefs would not always be hurt by untruthful, hurtful words. It must have hurt Jesus when people said He had the "spirit of Beelzebub".
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Call it what you will, that won't make any difference in the way it's viewed. Understanding that the power of belief is such that it is uncompromising, there is no proof anywhere outside of the bible in which you believe that Jesus ever existed in any way, shape, or form. This is fact.
  
  So then you are either lying or you just don't know the truth? Doesn't that mean that you truly haven't made up your mind one way or another?
  
  You are uncompromising in your belief. That is fine. You BELIEVE it to be true, which is fine. However, there is tons of proof to the contrary. What do you choose to do? Believe in anyway. According to YOUR very own words you are then a liar. I'm not asking you lie or even not to believe. You have called yourself a liar, I have not.
  
  It has been proven time and again, that one's words should be weighed and judged before one speaks. This is just another example of such. You have ended up calling your self a liar, and if you say that you haven't, then you are completely contradicting yourself, which is effectively lying.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  That is not fact. There are extra-biblical sources that attest to His existence.
  
  What are you talking about?
  
  There is tons of proof that disprove Jesus' divinity?? You aren't making any sense.
  
  ???
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There was a council held just to establish the divinity of Jesus. In all records, before that point, Jesus was not recorded as being Divine.
  
  Yes, there are extra biblical sources that would cite Jesus as real. However, there is no record of a man named Jesus ever existing. They defaulted this out to a guy named Joshua who was recorded as doing a few of the things quoted in the bible. This then was discounted as evidence because he didn't have any following what so ever and was primarily shunned every where he went. Much different then what the bible says. Bible says he was suppose to have disciples, followers, and done all sorts of great things. However these are not shown in the histories that we have. There for the biblical Jesus never existed.
  
  I read your passage from elsewhere wrong. I apologize for that.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (If you started a club for atheists discussing Christianity, etc, and how it is wrong and a radical atheist joins the club and advocates murdering Christian and stabs one to death, does that make your club evil?)
  
  Claire,
  
  There is no evidence that any violence has ever been committed by a group of people who became too reasonable and demanded too much objective evidence before they acted.
  
  It is irrational belief systems - belief with no evidence - that compels some too go off the deep end.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are missing the point in my hypothetical scenario. The point is that some radical could join the club and try and persuade the others to kill Christians. He is not there to reason. He just wants to use the opportunity to get a bunch of atheists together and kill Christians for the good of the world because Christians cause many wars. Now does this person reflect what atheists are about? No, it doesn't. Just because some people pervert Christianity doesn't mean it is bad. Geesh, can't you see that?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (You are missing the point in my hypothetical scenario. The point is that some radical)
  
  Claire,
  
  Some radical what? There is no such thing as a unencumbered radical unless you mean a single individual who is insane.
  
  It is not radicalism that causes theists to go off the deep end, rather it is fundamental belief beyond simply professing the creed. That you believe in a supernatural means that you aid and abet the same type belief that led 19 young Arabs to hijack planes and fly them into buildings and caused David Koresh to ignite the Mount Carmel compound.
  
  Can't you see that?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How does professing Jesus dying and rising from the dead and He preached love aid and abet terrorists? Tell me? You talk absolute crap when you say I aid and abet terrorists because of my belief in the supernatural and you know it. Darwin led to the Holocaust because Darwin believed that exterminating the weak aided evolution, according to your logic.
  
  I'm really surprised because you are more reasonable than this. BTW, there is no evidence that Al Qaeda was responsible for 9-11 and 5 of the hijackers are still alive. That's fact. I should say that those who fall for lies by the government regarding 9-11 aid and abet murder because they don't demand the government and others be held accountable for terrorism.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here's what you can't see.
  
  Christianity (amongst other religions) perverts good people to say and do bad things. And, while your statement can be true, so is this statement to a much greater degree, which means either way, religions like Christianity are the issue. If removed, then all there is to deal with are the small group of people who pervert ideologies to suit their agendas.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religion perverts good people!!! You are twisted. Who are your good people?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In order for Christianity to pervert good people there needs to have been people who perverted it in the first place. How is being Christ committed a threat to society? It's not. Better take teaching the theory of evolution out of school. We wouldn't want someone like Hitler killing the masses whom he deemed unworthy to aid evolution.
  
  You think that removing Christianity there would only be a small group of people perverting ideologies? How ignorant are you? Do you know who runs the world?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The same old satanists!!!!
  Tell your psychiatrist the next time you see him, that you have delusions that satanists are running the world. You know depression + delusion is more dangerous, so he MIGHT be able to get you help.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not necessarily.
  
  When it comes out from behind closed doors into the public eye where it is evangelized, for one.
  
  Hitler was a Christian and was doing Gods work. He said so himself.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not necessary? But true. The best defense against slander is truth. Perverted persons hijacks religion all the time for centuries. Hitler was one; it was mixture of paganism and mysticism. The religion was tailor made to promote his regime.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hitler was an occultist who hid behind Christianity to garner support. Answer me this one question: Why was the swastika an occult rune figure and not a crucifix?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People really don't know that Hitler was a Jew?
  
  I thought that was poignant when people thought him an anti-christ. Born into the same religion and race as Jesus himself many thought he was the anti-christ made flesh. Interesting. Then again there is many people who thinks the Holocaust didn't ever happen so I guess any type of ignorance is possible.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, just like a radical could join a bowling team and persuade the others to kill bowlers.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, those who believe in things that can't be shown "CANNOT be reasoned with" because they are insane?
  
  Many can't be reasoned with because they have been indoctrinated and show signs of reason well outside of their indoctrinated beliefs.
  
  Perhaps, some have been indoctrinated to believe Santa is God.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is a very true thing. Indoctrination does not necessarily equate to insanity therefore to say all religious people are insane is asinine.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, many insane people are religious and many religious people are insane.
  
  It is those who have broken the cycle of indoctrination that aren't insane.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many non religious people are insane. An insane person cannot break out of the cycle of indoctrination because they cannot be reasoned with.
  
  Former believers must still be insane to have believed the religious doctrines in the first place. The only way they could go from being a believer to an atheist and be sane they would need to have been treated with medication to realize their beliefs were psychotic.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we see that in your posts most adamantly, you cannot be reasoned with.
  
  Not all believers are insane, they are just indoctrinated. For example, I can't see any signs of insanity from Habee, to whom I just responded.
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But...you haven't seen me during the full moon!
  
  My faith is very personal to me, although I don't hold much with organized religion. I enjoy my relationship with God, and it gives me a feeling of comfort and hope. But each human has to find his own path - with religion, spiritualism, atheism, etc. And no matter how how well meaning some Christians might be, you can't force religion on anyone. To try to do so is a waste of time. I don't mind telling people about Christianity if they ask, but if they're not open to it, I don't force the issue. Nor do I think atheists are evil, or that all religious people are good.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, that is why non-believers appreciate the honesty and integrity you exhibit here even if we don't agree with the finer points of your beliefs.
  
  However, if you could get someone to video you during a full moon, I'm sure we'd all like to see that.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Habee has just been bestowed with the highest honour on this planet.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because she doesn't show signs of insanity?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Belief tends to take away one's ability to reason. Not believing in something, just that when it comes to that subject, a person is unable to reason. That is the power of belief. It's the thing wars have been fought over. That's why some think it is better to have an idea than to believe.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hear what you are saying but if the religious are insane, they do not possess the ability to reason and thus no one should bother to try and argue with them.
  
  The religious aren't the only ones who can be unreasonable. It is utterly and truly unreasonable to claim that all religious people are insane when any logical person knows that it is not true. It doesn't matter how much is shown to the contrary, they will still believe it. If they don't believe it then they are just plain lying.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No one should try to argue them. Arguing against someone who believes in something is asking for trouble. At the same time however, A religious zealot shouldn't go picking a fight and not expect to find one. People, whether religious or not, have a defence mechanism. When challenged, more often then not, they arise to meet the challenge set before them.
  
  I never said that the religious are the only one's who are unreasonable. Not all religious people are insane, just as those that are not religious are likewise not insane. Insanity is doing something over and over again just to get the same result and the same reaction. Trying to "convert" people to a religion when they don't want to be converted is truest show of insanity.
  
  The power of beliefs is such that it cannot be challenged. If someone is completely steadfast in their belief system, then it doesn't matter what you throw at them, they will believe it and find a way to refute to whatever you have to say. Assuming they are lying because they still choose to believe instead of not believe doesn't change the fact that they believe. All it changes is your perception on the situation. As no 2 people ever view the world in the exact same way, it doesn't really make a difference to anyone but you by calling them a liar.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly
  
  It's not insanity. It's the power of denial and perhaps ego, too.
  
  Why do you go on about me being a liar and me thinking others are liars? Lying is deliberating deceiving and most believers aren't guilty of that.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By stating emphatically that "The gospel of Jesus is the truth regardless of what anyone believe" and that you "know" Jesus is the son of God would most certainly be deliberately deceiving others, and you know it.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know I'm deliberately deceiving people? What if I am telling the truth? Since we both consider ourselves to be truthful, can you tell me that you don't have a shadow of doubt that Jesus isn't the son of God? That it is impossible?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you were telling the truth, it wouldn't sound as insane as it does.
  
  When you can acknowledge and compare your religious beliefs to that of the many other religious beliefs in the world and throughout history as being possible, then yours is as possible as theirs, considering none have a shred of evidence to support them.
  
  In other words, why should anyone consider your religious beliefs as being true?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I aplogize, I read what you said wrong and took it the wrong way. I had to re read it several times before I realized this. I apologize for that.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No problem.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When insanity is the norm.
  
  "IF" 95% of the population was insane; who would declare it so, The 5% or the 95%?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being firmly in the 5% myself, I geuss I'll just have to be the spokesman for the rest of the 5%ers....they think declaring it is pointless. Everyone on this planet is nutz!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So insanity is the norm on this planet? Most are completely crazy? Christian scientists, doctors, lawyers (okay, I'll say the lawyer part is true), teachers, etc, are all crazy?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hope you are not changing my question such that it becomes a statement of FACT?
  
  Most "Might be crazy? ??? Maybe Not.
  
  Suppose that they are! !!!
  
  "IF" so? ... Who gets to determine who will be Called Crazy?
  
  ME OR You ?
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First define normal and then see where you fit in, you'll find the results quite shocking. If I think of the nature of human behavior, the only normalcy I can find, is that there is nothing normal about human behavior.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OH yes there is.
  
  One thing ... is that Hormones, Estrogen, Testosterone, and Pheromones, one or the other or ALL of the above (or lack there of) is what Motivates behavior of (Maybe?) 95% of the population.
  
  Just kidding .... (Maybe)
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If there is any constant regarding human behavior, it's that humans are constantly insane. If we can control our compolsory activity, we are normal. If few can understand us, we are demed insane.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  YEP! there is a constant, And each of us think that we at the center of where it is at. And hormones is driving that bus.
  
  edit
  Don't know if that's Hormones or whoremones? LOL
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hormones, conditioning, geographic/sociological persuation, etc,etc,etc... There are many driving factors for our individual sicknesses.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep there are many reasons ..... They say that behing every good man there is a good woman.
  
  I think behind every reason is at least one hormone.
  
  Eleminate a hormone and the brain behaves differently no matter how it was acting before.
  
  still just funning wif Ya
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Crazy" can just mean that you believe in a delusional system. If Christian belief is delusional, then a huge percentage of the global population is delusional, yes. The majority? No. However, if we replace the words "Christian belief" with "religious belief" in that assertion -- or even with "supernatural belief" -- then it logically follows that the words "a huge percentage" would need to be replaced with "the majority."
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, crazy means mentally deranged:
  
  cra·zy/ˈkrāzē/
  Adjective:
  Mentally deranged, esp. as manifested in a wild or aggressive way: "Stella went crazy and assaulted a visitor".
  Noun:
  A mentally deranged person.
  Synonyms:
  
  adjective. mad - insane - demented - daft - lunatic - nutty
  noun. lunatic
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok... seeing as you posted the def..
  
  I give.
  
  I'mz kwazzy...........
  
  Why Claire..? Why would you do this ta meez?
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't remember sending you this comment. It was meant for someone else.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Believe it or not, crazy can also mean belief in a delusional system. "Crazy" describes a range of mental disorders, one of those disorders being psychosis. Psychotics frequently suffer from delusional beliefs.
  
  psy·cho·sis
  noun /sīˈkōsəs/
  psychoses, plural
  
  any severe mental disorder in which contact with reality is lost or highly distorted
  
  Religious belief has been equated with psychosis in some circles since at least 1927, with the publication of this book:
  
  http://www.questia.com/read/93928903
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You posted a definition for psychosis for understanding of the word crazy?
  
  Ok, I isn't kwazzy. I'mz not so bad.
  
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I posted a definition for psychosis for understanding of the word psychosis.
  
  ;-)
  
  However, "crazy" subsumes "psychosis," in the same way that "overweight" subsumes the words "fat" and "obese." If you are obese, then you are overweight. If you are psychotic, then you are crazy.
  
  In other words, if religion is a delusional belief system -- and I'm NOT claiming that it is -- then those who adhere to it can accurately be described as crazy.
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  Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even the craziest ideas can gain traction if they aren't challenged. The "craziness" of a religious claim is subjective in the sense that MOST religious claims seem pretty crazy when you take them out of their socially protective bubble. Would the idea of a God sacrificing his son, who was also himself, to himself in order to appease his own wrath seem sane if it hadn't caught on and become so widespread?
  
  Challenge the crazy ideas of today and you might prevent the emergence of the religions of the future.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Appease His own wrath??
  
  How did it catch on in the first place?
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  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If Christianity or any religion is so insane, then what do you hope to prove by attacking the beliefs of the believers? Doesn't that make you appear as insane as they are, or do you simply feed your illusions of being sane by attacking?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To help cure insanity?
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What's the difference between christianity and islam?
  
  Newer magazines...
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Islam nations do not believe Christ was divine where as Christians do.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was a Seinfeld refference.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If somebody posted they believed Santa was God, I'd suspect they were having a joke. After all, you can't prove that either of them exists, or doesn't exist. So what's the difference?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's personal proof to those who love God. Should we take someone seriously if they said they had personal proof of God being Santa? I'd like them to explain why. There could be a Santa god.
  
  The bottom line is that no one can prove God to another. It is a personal revelation.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If it's a personal revelation, chances are it's a delusion. Taking stock in one's life is natural, one needs no God/god to do this. If one looks at themselve's and says "it's time for a change", I'm pretty sure it wasn't God's/god's decision.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But we do, we will take him to a psychiatrist before he harm others.
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SomewayOuttaHereposted 12 years ago
..hey there Claire...i can be reasoned with..sometimes....depends on the day of the week and the season...the light is finally coming back and it's what? Wednesday/Mercredi......i sense truble...luv the title of the thread!...
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
This forum is for religion and philosophy Claire. As difficult as this might be for you to wrap your head around, Christianity is one of many religions. And the word philosophy is not synonymous with Christianity. This is not your forum, Claire. It is open to everyone, even those whom you think are insane.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually this forum goes beyond religion and philosophy, this part is labeled as such but it's part of the greater hub that encompasses many forums, like cooking, automotive, politics, family, lifestyle, everything.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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Wesman Todd Shawposted 12 years ago
Well, the atheist is typically such a vastly superior mind to the noodle in my noodle, that they often feel the need to show me how much more brilliant they are than I am.

It helps me to know my place!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The reason is simple: It's insecurity. They hate the fact that Christians just may be right and so if they call them insane it comforts them. The thought that God and Satan may exist is terrifying to a lot of people. It will turn people lives upside and most don't want that. I do not believe all atheists are completely deluded to truly believe all religious people are insane.
  
  I have FAR better things to do with my time than try and reason with the insane. I could talk to a tree and produce better results. At least I get some oxygen from it. Time is too short on this earth to waste it by constantly poking fun at the believers. It's is not constructive. It just causes more animosity.
  
  Think back to Jesus. Even His own family called Him mad (Mark 3:20). People are called mad, when they are not, because people don't understand what they are professing. It is beyond their own understanding so the easy thing to do is to call them insane. It is evident that Jesus was not crazy. The Pharisees would not have bothered to have indulged in conversation with Him if He was nuts.
  
  He was called drunkard, madman and black magician, anything but the truth. The truth is always the last to be considered and sometimes not considered at all.
  
  Calling oneself the Son of God on its own may seem wacko but other factors need to be considered. Did Jesus make sense or did He ramble like a madman? The people understood Him when He preached. The Pharisees certainly were angry because He refuted them with logic and exposed their hypocrisy. Was Jesus a liar? What purpose would that have achieved when it landed up with Him being ridiculed and ultimately crucified? A liar would soon tie themselves up in knots with such an earth-shattering claim. Finally, did Jesus simply profess the truth?
  
  Yes. Even today Jesus makes non believers feel uncomfortable because there is something about Him that is compelling.
  
  It's actually a compliment to be called insane by those who don't understand or have no interested in understanding. Jesus could do no other thing but profess the truth even though it must have been terribly lonely to have even your family call you mad.
  
  The truth can never be changed. People can call it insane all they like but it is in vain.
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  Thinking Allowedposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read the first sentence...face palmed. Not even close. God and satan possibly existing only terrifies believers. This is the main reason many of you believe: fear. Most believers are so caught in their own heads that they project THEIR insecurities and fears on to us. I fear god and the devil as much as I fear Skeletor.
  
  Believing in a god doesn't make you insane, it does tell me, however, you don't think critically. You can't possibly tell me you seriously thought about a god and said "yeah, that makes sense". It's not possible to actually think about it thoroughly and come to that conclusion.
  
  It's not about poking fun, it's about acknowledging that these beliefs can be dangerous and persuading as many people as possible to come over to the side of reason. Most believers I run into see any criticism of their belief as poking fun or some sort of attack. Again, being stuck in your own head causes this. The idea of persecution is big with you guys, so ANY criticism is seen as an attack or ridicule.
  
  Take what you're saying about Jesus. You're talking about events in a book you were told were real but when you look around, there are ZERO extra-biblical accounts of him in these events. ZERO. Mentioning events in the bible is like mentioning events in Harry Potter. If you understand why I'd reject someone quoting Harry Potter you understand why I reject quotes from the bible. Here's the problem though, the simple fact that I compared the bible to Harry Potter makes most of you shut down. You'll call it poking fun, when I'll I'm trying to get you to do is think.
  
  "It's actually a compliment to be called insane by those who don't understand or have no interested in understanding".
  
  Most non-believers are former believers. We understand your beliefs inside and out. We understand your thinking. It's YOU who doesn't understand that and doesn't want to understand that. There's that projection again. We've actually read your religious texts because at the time, it was ours. We found flaws and DIDN'T ignore them, we DIDN'T make excuses for them. We included ALL possibilities which includes the possibility of these texts not being true. Do you? Have you ever?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So say if you knew Satan did exist. Would that frighten you? Hypothetically speaking?
  
  It's true that many are "believers" because they fear hell or because they want the better seat in heaven. That's not being a Christian. God isn't stupid.
  
  Richard Dawkins doesn't have critical thinking because he thinks it's possible that aliens seeded the earth and there is a possibility God exists.
  
  Thanks for the concern but extremists are the dangerous ones and you are addressing the wrong crowd. Most non believers do insult and attack believers and that is why they are on the defensive.
  
  Huh? Does Tacitus, Celsus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus not ring a bell to you?
  
  At the moment I don't see you poking fun. Regarding the resurrection, we know something happened to inspire the Jews to abandon their religion to take up Christianity even when they were put to death for it. What happened do you suppose?
  
  "It's actually a compliment to be called insane by those who don't understand or have no interested in understanding".
  
  You understand what the beliefs are but you do not understand how people can have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. I by know means do not look over flaws in the Bible. I do not believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. I believe the crux of the gospels is true but some stories about Jesus' encounters must have been embellished. For example, can it be verified that Jesus make the demons possess the two thousand pigs? I'm skeptical about that. In a nutshell, the virgin birth and resurrection cannot be verified as true without actually having personal evidence of the Holy Spirit. If I didn't have that, there really would not be any reason why I should believe a book and revolve myself around the gospels.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "So say if you knew Satan did exist. Would that frighten you? Hypothetically speaking?"
  If anything that could hurt us exists we must fear it, however, if we know that either this thing is fictional or that we understand it enough for it to be rendered harmless then we will no longer fear it.
  In other words, "Knowledge is power" Many if not most or all of us were raised by Christian (or other religious) families, we were taught to fear Satan and Love God and so on, however those of us that are now atheists came to understand that these things are little more than scary bedtime stories and fairy tales. What the atheists that come here for is to make you understand that WE don't believe as you do and why. That we when you understand us, whether or not you come to believe as we do, you will not violate our rights by trying to make the laws of the land equal to your religious beliefs, or attack us as heretics, or prosthelytize our children and so on. Some of us are much angrier about it then others, some a bit more empathetic about it, but what remains is that almost all of us are sure of what we believe because of the simple fact that we base our beliefs on evidence and not faith. We are happier as we are now than we were as Christians and the likely hood of changing our mid depends on how much actual evidence you have that contradicts our beliefs/evidence.
  As far as your other questions:
  You make many assumptions and judgements based on statements out of context with the whole (mainly on Richard Dawkins, but he doesn't influence my beliefs in any way).
  Huh? Does Tacitus, Celsus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus not ring a bell to you? Yes they do but you must understand that some of these men never lived in the time of Jesus, Never new Jesus made statements that seem out of context with the whole of their testimony (meaning someone forged their testimony) and these people never actually met or knew Jesus. In fact Celsus was an opponent of Christianity in the time of Jesus and never mentions Jesus in context of Christianity as a person who he knew.
  As far as the Jews abandoning their religion to become Christians? That is a false and misleading statement as well, since Christianity was not invented by Jews, unless you take the Bible Literally and aren't looking at historical accounts. Jews keep a pretty good record of their history and their are many Jews in the world, 6,214,569 in the US and 14.5 million in the world, Christianity is the largest 1.9 Billion, but that is just 1/7th of the world population.
  As far as your very last statement, it's called emotional attachment to an idea, you get pleasure from your belief the same way someone gets pleasure from eating food, or going on shopping sprees or finding someone you feel in love with. In fact it's the same as being in love, because love is blind and you will do anything to defend that love even if in the end it turns out that the other person never loved you and was cheating on you with another person. But you move on and find someone better and you learn from your mistakes. Then you find out that love isn't based on faith it's based on mutual respect and trust and the ability to agree to disagree.
  We atheists believe by evidence not faith, if you are going to try and get us to believe as you do merely with stories of fear of the unknown, testimony of the unbelievable and often not true, or miracles and the empty promise of a salvation from an empty threat using only the power of faith, then I am sorry but you have nothing to offer us.
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  Leafy Denposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thinking Allowed...well said!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just as it comforts you to say that anyone believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is insane. Is it the fact that they my be right? Get real. Your beliefs are childish nonsense, and nothing to fear.
  
  The thought that God and Satan may exist is completely absurd to people who have the courage to use their common sense. Fear is for cowards.
  
  I prefer brainwashed as opposed to insane.
  
  Just like you have no idea who wrote the book of Mark. Now do you?
  
  Your beliefs are not beyond any thinking person's understanding. Your beliefs are simply primitive, unintelligent, blatant LIES!
  
  How would that prove Jesus' sanity?
  
  The truth is: Jesus is imaginary. Have you considered that? Not at all!
  
  lol! Totally delusional garbage propaganda! But it makes you feel like you are not brainwashed.
  
  So is THIS the truth or just insane?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't believe that's fine.
  
  But we are not liars.
  
  And you could learn some respect.
  
  You are a child.
  
  Maybe you enjoy mocking a Man so many people love with all their hearts because YOU don't believe.
  
  But that gives you no right to be so inconsiderate and ugly.
  
  Who said YOU determined what everyone can and can't believe?
  
  Maybe you should stick to the reasoning if you don't believe and quit the demeaning of my Lord.
  
  And the Lord of so many others.
  
  You should be as ashamed as you can be, just because you're rude and cold.
  
  As IF you posting that was going to do ANY good....
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Respect would mean that believers wouldn't go around demanding others make a choice to believe as they believe, that is disrespect. Do you understand?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've demanded nothing except for you to quit attempting to tell me what to do.
  
  But I've come to accept disappointment from you.
  
  Do you understand?
  
  God bless.
  
  Good day.
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kind of like you telling others to accept Jesus or not?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll make an exception here to respond.
  
  So you refuse to accept Jesus.
  
  And you refuse to deny Him..
  
  Now what brainiac?
  
  Oh yeah.. " Christians are liars har har har! "
  
  Boy, you're a great spokesman for the atheists . . .
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it's more along the lines that I don't accept your ridiculous claims about Jesus.
  
  You see, starting from the premise that Jesus existed and exists for you as something very real and tangible would make it appear from your perspective as if others aren't accepting that very same real and tangible entity you've created for yourself.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hypocrisy in action.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Quote me cheesy...
  
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I've demanded nothing except for you to quit attempting to tell me what to do." Vector7
  Yet when someone speaks their mind you attempt to contradict them when it's not the same as yours, no one is telling you want to do, in fact we enjoy a friendly debate, yet you make all debates unfriendly because they contradict your belief. You want to speak your mind, by all means do so but allow us the same consideration. You want to make fun of claims we make then you must accept the same consideration, but what you have failed to do is to back your claims up with requests for evidence, you call our (mine in particular) statements "parroting as if repeating them would make them true" I repeat my statements because they are a request for evidence to the contrary. I can back up any and all claims I make, so ask me a question but do not character assassinate and not expect someone to be on the offensive. Is this what Christianity is about? Making claims that cannot be backed up and then attacking someone that contradicts them in an unfriendly manner? A troubled man is guilty of this only because he is angry, I can understand his anger but as I make statements that contradict you I mean no disrespect and have shown none to you except in light of your attacks on myself and others. Show some respect and you shall indeed receive respect.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  <--- it's amazing how many times I have to show me being angry
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THAT... is your quotes???
  
  You want to call me unChristian.. I haven't pulled out the quotes on you yet.
  
  And you DON'T want me too either. lol
  
  I'm soooo horrible..... lol
  
  What a joke - pick on you?
  
  YOU starting pointing fingers at Christians before I said a peep.
  
  Give it up before I starting pulling posts...
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then you are, unfortunately, the victims of a vicious hoax.
  
  Thanks for pointing out my disrespect while disrespecting me. You are amusing Vector.
  
  I'm not mocking. I'm simply challenging your absurd assertions, of which you have not yet provided any level of intelligent rebuttal.
  
  Sorry you are attached to such a foolish Lord. Detach yourself and become free of the delusion that has permeated your being.
  
  Yep...many other psychotic minds can't be wrong!
  
  You are way too attached to these archaic nonsensical beliefs, man. I have only given a straightforward rebuttal of your ridiculous beliefs, and you take this as a personal attack.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would it comfort me? What is it to me if the Flying Spaghetti exists or not? If it exists, so what?
  
  You limit yourself in thinking the world is just about common sense. Common sense tells me that all life morphing from a primordial soup eventually causing consciousness from RNA is just absurd. Let's think of DNA:
  
  Since the discovery of DNA Biologists have been gradually learning that the basic cellular unit underlying all known life on Earth is enormously complex. Far more complex than the latest Intel CPU for example. It's so highly mechanised with concepts such as hardware and software that many at the forefront of microbiology believe a genetic algorithm could not possibly have produced it.
  
  But that just formed in a primordial soup according to people with the highest concept of common sense.
  
  Anyway, the staunchest and most reasonable of all atheists actually contends that humans may be intelligently designed - by aliens, I kid you not:
  
  Interview:
  
  BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?
  
  DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.
  
  He's thinking reasonably, of course. Unless he has been drinking some Kool-Aid. This theory actually is written in the ancient Sumerian Tablets and is a Freemasonic belief. This was also the view of Francis Crick, the Nobel Peace Prize winner who discovered DNA.
  
  Anthony Flew was also a respected atheist and said before he died in an interview:
  
  FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.
  
  HABERMAS: So of the major theistic arguments, such as the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, the only really impressive ones that you take to be decisive are the scientific forms of teleology? [teleology is the philosophical study of design in nature]
  
  FLEW: Absolutely. It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that... the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.
  
  http://www.theoligarch.com/richard-dawkins-aliens.htm
  
  Mail Online article:
  
  Professor Richard Dawkins today dismissed his hard-earned reputation as a militant atheist - admitting that he is actually agnostic as he can't prove God doesn't exist.
  
  The country's foremost champion of the Darwinist evolution, who wrote The God Delusion, stunned audience members when he made the confession during a lively debate on the origins of the universe with the Archbishop of Canterbury.
  
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ostic.html
  
  Being fearful is not cowardice. Persevering despite one's fear is courage.
  
  Can you reason with a brainwashed person?
  
  Oh yes, the Flying Spaghetti did. Sorry, I should have given him the credit.
  
  Are you hundred dillion percent sure I am lying? Be honest!
  
  If Jesus was not capable of reasoning ever.
  
  So you are an historian and biblical scholar and have spent years studying the evidence for Jesus?
  
  You sound rattled. I am making you feel uncomfortable.
  
  As for your picture, omit the Genesis part. That didn't happen. Jesus wasn't a zombie, by the way.
  
  Never ever be too sure about Jesus not being the son of God. If there is a small doubt and people lash out like crazy, then there much be some merit in the claim.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent post.
  
  Seriously.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, then your beliefs would have to be false, that's why.
  
  What a desperate stretch. There are many things about evolution that are not yet understood, however pointing them out does nothing for your beliefs. Let your beliefs stand on their own merit.
  
  Apparently NOT! To you, reason is only a tool to try to make brainwashing appear to be sensible.
  
  Evasion! Just admit you don't know.
  
  Why do you need to go to this length to trick yourself? This is why your argument becomes circular. Just because absolutes are technically illogical makes no difference in regards to your beliefs. These beliefs are childish nonsense.
  
  There is a remote chance that someone vaguely referenced as Jesus did, historically, exist...however we are not talking about the historical Jesus. We are talking about the SAVIOUR JESUS...and that is an imaginary person.
  
  Maybe you should be honest, and stop just making stuff up. There is nothing about Jesus that causes any uncomfortableness in anyone except the delusional believer. It is your desperate defense of this nonsense that is disturbing.
  
  Yep...when brainwashed one can create any paradox they want. Just imagine a zombie who's NOT a zombie.
  
  The same could be said for Spider Man.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Oh please! Since when does the Flying Spaghetti monster, if proven to exist, automatically negates God existence?
  
  Lol
  
  .
  
  Of course I don't know! They didn't exactly put their names on, did they?
  
  I'm asking you a question and I would appreciate it if you would answer it.
  
  There isn't a remote chance. It's a fact. Pliny the Younger and Celsus mentioned the claims Jesus was divine and the former called it a superstition and the latter did, too, but went further and mocked Jesus calling Him a black magician.
  
  Extra-biblical sources did mention the eclipse and earthquake that happened when Jesus was crucified:
  
  Roman historian Phlegon apparently has also written about a darkness around Jesus' crucifixion.
  Plegon's writing on history is known as "OLYMPIADES". The reference may be found in "Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum" (C. Muller) 1841- 1870, Volume 3, pages 603 - 624:
  "In the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was a great eclipse [Greek = EKLEIPSIS] of the Sun, greater than had ever been known before, for at the 6th hour the day was changed into night and the stars were seen in the heavens. An earthquake occurred in Bythinia and overthrew a great part of the city of Nicaea"
  
   The first olympiad was held in 776 BC
   Each Olympiad is 4 years
   The forth year of the 202 Olympiad is 32 AD -
  
  Pagan chronologer Thallus also tries to explains this away as outlines by Africanus:
  A most terrible darkness fell over all the world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake, and many places both in Judaea and the rest of the world were thrown down. In the third book of his HISTORIES Thallus dismisses this darkness as a solar eclipse, unreasonably, as it seems to me. For the Hebrews celebrate the PASSOVER on Luna 14, and what happened to the Saviour occurred one day before the PASSOVER. But an eclipse of the sun takes place when the moon passes under the sun. The only time when this can happen is in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last day of the old moon, when they are in conjunction. How then could one believe an eclipse took place when the moon was almost in opposition to the sun? So be it. Let what had happened beguile the masses, and let this wonderful sign to the world be considered a solar eclipse through an optical [illusion]. Phlegon records that during the reign of Tiberius Caesar there was a complete solar eclipse at full moon from the sixth to the ninth hour; it is clear that this is the one. But what have eclipses to do with an earthquake, rocks breaking apart, resurrection of the dead, and a universal disturbance of this nature
  
  http://www.textexcavation.com/thallustestimonium.html
  
  I don't think it would be pertinent for pagans and Jewish non believers to record Jesus' miracles. They Jesus' divinity was superstition.
  
  Why bother telling me this stuff since I'm brain-washed? Why get so worked up? I'm giving you a chance to rant and rave about Mohammed and tell me how false the Koran is.
  
  Do you know what a zombie is? A Zombie:
  
  Originally, a snake-deity of or deriving from West Africa and Haiti.
  A soulless corpse said to be revived by witchcraft, esp. in certain African and Caribbean religions.
  
  The term is often figuratively applied to describe a hypnotized person bereft of consciousness and self-awareness, yet ambulant and able to respond to surrounding stimuli.
  
  When Zombies came back to life they are devoid of a soul and are mute.
  
  Not exactly Jesus.
  
  You do have doubt at the back of your mind. Be honest.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Because the FSM IS GOD!!! And there can be only one, or are you suggesting multiple Gods?
  
  Using odds and probabilities, your assertions are WAY MORE LIKELY TO BE LIES THAN TRUTH. It is not a matter of being 100 percent sure, but of just being in reality. Your assertions are mind-numbing nonsense, and you are just trying, desperately, to support your senseless beliefs with reason. Imagine that.
  
  That's insane. I suppose you were there.
  
  All this research in support of abject nonsensical, wishful thinking...that some Bronze Age fairytale is REALITY. It's ashame to use one's intellect to support one's psychosis.
  
  The Koran is also complete garbage as well. Neither you nor brainwashed Muslims know anything about "divinity"
  
  Very technical! The difference being that Jesus had a soul, right? And he could talk, right? And he wasn't resurrected through witdhcraft, right? Oh, that reminds me, I got to pick up a copy of the latest Harry Potter, and the Twilight Saga.
  
  There is NO doubt that your beliefs are complete and utter nonsense. OK! I hereby commit "blasphemy" and declare the myth of God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit to be completely foolish, primitive, and delusional nonsense.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Imagine you sticking around at these forums screaming "Lies!" to people who cannot be reasoned with. Go figure.
  
  I don't need to be there. It's a fact that Jesus was mentioned in extra-biblical sources.
  
  Lol, so you ignore these texts just because it doesn't suit you? Did you think these texts are made up?
  
  And you know everything about divinity? I'm asking you why bother telling me I believe in garbage when you can't reason with a brain-washed person?
  
  LMAO! Actually, no, it isn't funny. Poor thing, you are trying to convince yourself that Jesus isn't the son of God by projecting. I've seen this over the years.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Getitrite This is her only reasonable statement and she is taking treatment, so better leave her alone!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  After all the objective points you're still posting?
  
  Did you comprehend the logic at all? lol
  
  Considering your post, after her well addressed counter argument, I believe you are right. You should give up..
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well addressed?!!
  
  I can't understand how you can see it that way. Claire's responses are mostly cuts and pastes from some pro-delusional websites.
  
  And her attempt at trying to use logic to support a childish and foolish premise is laughable.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Point well taken.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because you people can be quite amusing...I mean with some of the extreme nonsense that you assert when your delusion is totally debunked. Just to experience, firsthand, the effects of psychosis on the human mind is astonishing.
  
  You're right! Although you do believe in garbage, you are brainwashed and no longer possess the ability to discern reason. I would suggest psychiatric treatment, but you would have to acknowledge first that you are delusional. It is hopeless with most of the brainwashed believers, as they have the backing of society, encouraging and supporting their mental sickness.
  
  By using condescension and blatantly patronizing me you assume some type of superiority, right? This is your delusion, desperately trying to survive in the face of REALITY.
  
  BTW, I don't need your pity, for it is not me who is pathetic.
  
  Your reasoning is completely absurd. It shows an extremely elementary understanding of cause and effect. Since I don't even believe in God, how in the world can I believe God has a son? What a presupposition. Hence, in effect, it is YOU using the projecting mechanism.
  
  Of course the deluded mind can dismiss this, and go right on blissfully asserting nonsense as if it were truth.
  
  It is apparent that the deluded mind can "SEE" just what it wants to see. You also believe that primitive charlatans talked to some being you call God, and that God told them to write His thoughts. Brainwashed...a resounding YES! Analyst of human psychology...NOT IN THE LEAST!
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Richard Dawkins can't disprove that god exists? - Of course not. neither can he (or anyone else) disprove fairies, aliens, goblins or Santa - This is no proof that they exist. The onus isn't upon disbelievers to try and disprove any or all fictional concepts. The onus is upon believers to prove what they say is true, and not just wishful thinking.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He says that it is for that very reason he cannot know for certain that God doesn't exist. His own words. The difference between people who claim God exists and those who claim fairies, etc, exist is that most who claim God exist are sane and no one sane says fairies exists and is serious about it.
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm sorry but it's exactly the same thing.
  "no one sane says faries exist and is serious about it" - You need to look outside of your own belief. There is a huge body of people who are just as serious about faries as you are about god. (Check out Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the Author of Sherlock Holmes). Belief in both faries and god is irrational and they both carry the same body of "proof". You can't say that they are insane simply because their irrational belief is different to your own.
  Those who claim fairies exist have exactly the same body of proof behind their claim as do those who claim that god exists - In fact the fairy believers have a slightly better claim. At least their legends, writings and beliefs are consistent, whereas the concept and stories and legends about god change (often quite drasticaly), between the hundreds/thousands of mainline versions of god belief. Believers often use the "it must be true because it's in the bible" ploy but this carries no more weight than a book about fairies would as proof of faries existence.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose I was thinking of Tinkerbell. LMAO!
  
  Anyway, I was too quick with my answer. It is possible that fairies do exist looking it up:
  
  Faerie : from the Latin term for "fate" (fata), faeries (or fairies) are a "host of supernatural beings and spirits who occupy a limbo between earth and heaven" (Guiley). This is in recognition of the skill faeries had in predicting and even controlling human destiny. Faeries could be either good or evil creatures, and at various points in history have been confused with witches and demons
  
  Can't rule this out. In all honesty, I can't. Several years ago there was a report on a news site of tokoloshis (dwarf-like water sprites in the Zulu culture)walking into a school classroom. Several children had to be hospitalized for shock.
  
  It is natural to dismiss something as insane, like I did initially, when people aren't familiar with the subject and the claims or when it seems irrational to them. It's because people want a logical explanation first. However, looking into it makes me realize I cannot dismiss it as insane because I've never had evidence. Otherwise I'd be guilty of the same thing as atheists are regarding the supernatural.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  While I respect what you are saying here, I must object that many atheists -- if not most -- have spent a lot of time investigating claims of the supernatural. I've spent 30 years investigating such claims, hoping for positive evidence, but encountering none.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm curious, how did you go about investigation claims of the supernatural?
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some of that investigation has been firsthand, and some of it has been critically examining the claims of others. I've spent the night in cemeteries and haunted houses, hoping for purported ghosts (which never manifested themselves, if they existed). I've attended séances, paid for tarot card readings, and spent a week at an ashram. I've played with ouija boards. I've gone to many UFOlogist conventions, camped on ley lines and crop circles, and consorted with Satanists and Wiccans. I've spoken in tongues and spent hundreds of hours -- literally -- at faith healing meetings. I've interviewed the "healed" before they died.
  
  That's all the firsthand stuff. I've spent much more time critically examining the claims of others, none of which were convincing.
  
  Still, I haven't given up hope. :-)
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The one who IS serious about claiming fairies exist also believes they are sane.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Look at my revised comment.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree!
  Anyone making any claim carries the onus to prove this or that.
  
  If you make the adamant stand that there is NO God, show us WHY you make that claim. It's your claim, but, since you know nothing beyond this 3D world, you are not able, in all honesty, and with ANY integrity to assert any such thing.
  The most hones thing any Atheist can say is, "I don't know"! End of story!
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Atheists are not making the claim - They are refuting YOUR claim - The refutation can not come before the claim, that is why the onus is on the believers - It can not, logically, be any other way.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your refutation is empty!
  
  Your position negates anything you say.
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL ! My position of requiring some sort of proof before believing unsubstantiated claims negates anything I say? How does that work then?
  I am perfectly open to believing in the god theorey if someone can provide any proof other than self-referrencing stuff like "because it says so in the bible", or subjective stuff like "because I know in my heart it's true" Every deluded mental patient that I have nursed over thirty years knew "in their heart" that their delusions were true - This proves nothing. In fact, unless there is corroborating evidence, psychiatric services would regard it as indicating symptoms of delusional thinking. Note that the onus was not on us to disprove their delusions. To try would be futile, the definition of a delusion is "a false belief that cannot be corrected by logical argument.
  
  So it's not much to ask. Just show me some proper proof (i.e. that would stand up in a court) and I'll join you in church next sunday.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Love does not exist.
  
  Prove to us that it does!
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oxytosin creates the feelings of love and it's been proven scientifically. But love is also an interpretation of individual desire.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Oh dear dj.. that one made my stomach hurt...
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Previously comment did not come out properly:
  
  Can you reason with a brainwashed person?
  
  Oh yes, the Flying Spaghetti did. Sorry, I should have given him the credit.
  
  Are you hundred dillion percent sure I am lying? Be honest!
  
  If Jesus was not capable of reasoning ever.
  
  So you are an historian and biblical scholar and have spent years studying the evidence for Jesus?
  
  You sound rattled. I am making you feel uncomfortable.
  
  As for your picture, omit the Genesis part. That didn't happen. Jesus wasn't a zombie, by the way.
  
  Never ever be too sure about Jesus not being the son of God. If there is a small doubt and people lash out like crazy, then there much be some merit in the claim.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That was completely beautiful claire. Well spoken!
  +10
  
  Jesus was indeed in complete control of his mental faculties.
  Psychologists look at disturbed peoples emotions because often they will show signs of depression, at other times be vehemently angry, have anxiety.
  Jesus cried at his friends lazarus's death - a natural reaction. Jesus got angry in the temple but he did not lose control. He overturned everything but the seller of doves cages - because doves are frail animals and might have gotten hurt, in the midst of jesus rage he said:
  John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
  Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the SEATS of them that sold doves,
  Jesus was mad at the blatant mistreatment and gouging of temple visitors.
  Misperceptions are common among insane people. The will think people are trying to get them, paranoia. They are out of contact with reality. Jesus was not paranoid but he knew there were some very real dangers around him.
  Some insane people cannot carry on a conversation, they jump to faulty conclusions or are irrational. Jesus spoke clearly, powerfully even eloquently also being brilliant and having keen insights into human nature.
  Unsuitable behavior such as dressing oddly, a warm coat in summer or being unable to relate to others. Jesus had deep relationships with a variety of people from all walks of life.
  Jesus had adoring crowds around him but he did not let his ego get bloated. Jesus maintained balance in awkward and life threatening situations. He always knew where he was going and what he was doing. He cared about women and children who were not really that important back then.
  Some people as Claire pointed out thought he was possessed by a demon, of course i disagree with this but those people back then making this accusation were not mental health professionals.
  Jesus was not making absurd claims about himself he was actually backing those claims up with miracles like healing the blind and lame, compassionate healings not performance miracles.
  Jesus did not just claim to be the son of God - he backed it up with amazing feats of healing, with astounding demonstrations of power over nature, with transcendent and unprecedented teaching and ultimately with his own resurrection. In the face of this type of evidence it is definitely laughable to say Jesus was anything else but sane and sober.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely agree with the former statement based on the latter.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Great comment!
  
  It had nothing to do with them no understand mental health problems. They believed he cast out devils with devils because black magicians do miracles also so they assumed Jesus was one, too.
  
  Celsus was a second century historian and opponent of Christianity. This is what he wrote about Jesus:
  
  "Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain [magical] powers... He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god... It was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders
  which He performed... Let us believe that these cures, or the resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a few loaves... These are nothing more than the tricks of jugglers... It is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of [miraculous] power..."
  
  They did not believe Jesus was insane.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with what your saying upto the point of claiming to be the son of God and backing it up. He never said he was the son of God. He said that he was the son of Man. He prayed and when asked said that he was talking with his father, but he never said that he was the son of God. That was inferred through out the text, but it's not something he ever said or made claim to. He explicitly made a point of saying that he was the son of Man in fact.
  
  Matthew 25:45
  
  Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
  
  Matthew 25:62-64
  
  And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what [is it which] these witness against thee? But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
  
  Mark 2:10
  
  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
  
  These are just a few of the examples where he claims to be the Son of Man. He makes no claim to be the son of God, that name is given to him. It is also important to remember that the word Messiah means Prophet.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really man?
  
  John 3:16???
  
  There's more but if you can't see it, I'm not fighting you to show you.
  
  The Son of man is a reference to the book of Daniel speaking about the coming Messiah.. The Son of God.
  
  How do the same misconceptions come up over and over?
  
  It's even in your post....
  
  Matthew 25:62-64
  
  They asked if Him if He was the Son of God.. Then they crucified Him claiming He was blaspheming because He said yes...
  
  If Son of man meant what you think, do you think they would have crucified Him? For telling them He wasn't?
  
  That verse proves my point in itself.
  
  God bless
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet again, he did not say that he was the son of God. He simply say that God sent his only begotten son. He does not say that he is that son. This is something yet again implyd and by no means him actually saying that this is who he is. Read again and more carefully.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even if I only use the Bible for rolling papers to roll marijuana (only for re-sell, of course, since I don't smoke it) or prefer the New Testament for choice-select, Grade-C toilet paper for my arse, I'd still say that you have some comprehension issues on that particular, obvious verse.
  If I were a Christian, I'd be LMAO @ you! Fortunately for me, I'm just an innocent spectator, so my backside is spared from falling off due to LOLs!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see how they miss things so simple and blatently obvious.
  
  ...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By the evidence, who else could it be?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus said I am in the world but I am not of the world meaning His Spirit was with God when the world was created. Atheist call us Christians stupid, but at least we can put 1 and 1 together. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the Son of man also which relates to the signs of the coming Messiah who was Jesus, His human nature.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, at the very least, we can trust Christians to do something.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...
  
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innersmiffposted 12 years ago
Perhaps because they would secretly like to be persuaded. We all cry out for some kind of spiritual satisfaction, and maybe militant atheism is just another expression of it - continually frustrated by the dogma of religion but strangled by their own rigid belief systems in turn, they keep coming back.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps, there are those who understand "spiritual satisfaction" is complete nonsense embraced by the ignorant and delusional.
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  innersmiffposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So your tirade against 'delusion' is an expression of your profound satisfaction and comfort with your existence?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh no, like you asserted, "strangled by their own rigid belief systems "
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've got that right.
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  Gaizyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then again, perhaps not.
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lorlie6posted 12 years ago
I am quite reasonable, thank you very much! Oh, and you can visit me anytime in the asylum anytime. Perhaps we can chat over tea?
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tammybarnetteposted 12 years ago
It cracks me up how these forums are always the same. Who is the more intelligent and who is delusional. Same thing in the political forums. Believers want to bring you to the Lord to save you from Hell, why do non believer's want to bring people away from their lord? Now that's the interesting question. In what way will you be rewarded for your efforts to undermine the beliefs of Christians?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (In what way will you be rewarded for your efforts to undermine the beliefs of Christians?)
  
  tammybarnette,
  
  I would live in a safer, more sane world. If religious belief were eliminated, I would not have to concern myself that a college educated and wealthy young man who also happened to believe a flying mule took a prophet to heaven decided that, to appease his god, he needed to build a nuclear weapon and explode it amongst those whom he found unworthy, I wouldn't have to concern myself that a man in the U.S. who purportedly sincerely believes - only by accepting the authority of the storyteller he follows - that a lost tribe of Israelites lived and built huge cities in New York without leaving a single scrap of evidence of their existence could be elected to the most powerful political position in the world, and I wouldn't have to concern myself that believers in ghosts, Frankenstein-like dead people rising, and fairy kings who can live in the sky for thousands of years might also be on a jury hearing evidence against me when I have been wrongly accused.
  
  These people who are so easy to baffle, so unchallenging in their thinking, so irrational about their willingness to believe nonsense, that I want no part of them having a position of authority over me or anyone I care about. That starts by eliminating irrational thinking.
  
  There are tons of reasons for hoping we can eliminate irrational beliefs and the irrational thinking spawning those beliefs - I'm sure you can think of your own reasons if you give it a try.
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  tammybarnetteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So basically you lump all believers into one pile,hmm. I'm sure you love it when someone does this to you and your belief system, or lack there of. Politically speaking I am a liberal and believe you should have the right to believe or not believe anything you so choose. As a Christian, I would only want to spare YOUR soul. See, your reasoning is self interest and mine is love of fellow man.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That would be showing respect for others.
  
  No, that would be total disrespect for others, which does nothing but cause conflict. Yours is the one that is of self-interest because YOU want to spare someone else's soul, even though they never asked you to do so.
  
  That is not love, that is selfishness.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to see you enjoy being hateful.
  
  It doesn't matter what anyone does, you claim it's selfish.
  
  YOU on the other hand ARE selfish, rude, arrogant, and spiteful.
  
  Here, want to be hateful? Here is another opportunity to show everyone your colors.
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  <--- me being hateful
  
  That is a lie.
  
  Yes, keep evangelizing your religion to fulfill OUR needs.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thx, I'll tell the world.
  
  You just keep listening and reading even though you don't like it.
  
  I know.. It's hard to control your eyes.... lol
  
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Silence is the same as approval. That is why we do not keep silent. We do not approve of cults. Call us hateful all you like, make fun of us, character assassinate all you like, without the benefit of evidence for your claims, the hypocrisy is all yours.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Silence is the same as approval"
  
  You should really write a book. And I'm serious. Make an ebook so I can download it.
  
  Where do you people come up with this stuff?
  
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Silence can be inferred as tacit approval. I'm sure that you understand this, so I'm not sure what you are mocking.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll write a hub..
  
  Not leaving this one open.
  
  That is ridiculous to say "if you don't respond to my post then you approve of it"
  
  I can't believe anyone supports such illogical thinking. NO, I don't understand that as it's untrue.
  
  I was NOT mocking lol, I was laughing because I think it's funny he thinks that.
  
  I WOULD like him to write a book. I wouldn't have to say a word as I'm sure there would be plenty of people in the media that would love to do it for me.
  
  Please further explain your point if you would still like to discuss it even though I think it lacks any sense at all.
  
  That may apply in 'particular' situations but people around here just apply anything to everything willy nilly like it's some kind of data orgy.....
  
  And it DOES NOT apply here.
  
  I'm not being ugly btw, I'm speaking boldly because I'm tired of being bashed for laughing at nonsense.. I didn't make it lack sense or post it.
  
  I just laughed, because I think he could do better.
  
  If I thought he was handicapped I wouldn't laugh, but I think he is intelligent, therefore I will correct him.
  
  I also laugh because he has put the agenda before the reasoning before and it caught his foot, and he will deny it, but i won't pull posts.
  
  I would love, sincerely, to hear the logic in the statement if anyone has it.
  
  I will agree with what makes sense, and will disagree with what doesn't.
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wait.. No reply?
  
  Does that mean everyone approves???
  
  Sweet.
  
  .....
  
  I think I've made myself clear.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct. If I has made that assertion, it would indeed be ridiculous.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (So basically you lump all believers into one pile,hmm. I'm sure you love it when someone does this to you and your belief system
  
  tammybarnette,
  
  I am totally secure in who I am and who I am not and have no ego to stroke, so I don't care what anyone else thinks about me. I do care about how others think, though, as being a part of soceity means that societal decisions affect everyone.
  
  I prefer decision-makers to be rational, and therefore I urge rationality in everyone because one never knows who will be in a position of authority.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The problem here is that you are thinking of extremists in religion. The problem is that it is not the average believer that you are encountering here on these forums. You are conversing with the wrong people. You also tend to think that religion is the the main root for wars. World War 1 and 2 were not started over religion. The Arab Spring which has led to war in Libya and Syria where not started because of religion. They were started for the purpose of ultimately having a one world government.
  
  The last thing I would do is visit a religious forum set up by extremists. You are better off banging your head against a tree.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Claire. You are an extremist.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (You also tend to think that religion is the the main root for wars)
  
  Claire,
  
  This is an odd statement in that I have never once posted such a claim - never. I understand that human activities can rarely if ever be pinned down to one causitive claim - unlike those who claim Satan as THE cause.
  
  Emile R, above, is right. You may not consider yourself so, but you hold quite extreme views. They tend to come across and black and white views.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I apologize.
  
  Religious extremists:
  
  1. Introduction
  At first glance, the link between religious extremism and terrorism seems
  obvious. Religious extremists are willing to murder because they embrace theologies that sanction violence in the service of God. They have no sympathy for their victims, because they view those victims as enemies of God. And they readily sacrifice their own 2lives because they expect huge and immediate afterlife rewards in return form “martyrdom.”
  
  Is this me??
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here.. I'll pick up..
  
  ::ahem::
  
  NO
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They will be rewarded for their false security.
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habeeposted 12 years ago
Over the years, I've seen several threads started specifically for Christians, yet a couple of atheists and/or agnostics just had to come on the thread and post arguments. I just don't get it. I feel the same way about Christians arguing on forum threads started specifically for atheists, agnostics, Taoists, Muslims, etc.

If the thread is about religion or philosophy, in general, that's a different story. Otherwise, why waste time and effort? Atheists aren't going to convince Christians that their beliefs are wrong, and vice-versa.
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  tammybarnetteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  habee, your right, i saw this thread as I logged on and didn't realize it was an atheist forum until after I posted my first comment. No arguing intended. On that note goodnight to all:) (I would say God Bless but what would be the point)
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tammy, my comment wasn't aimed at you! Honestly, I didn't even read all the comments, and I was just making a general statement.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Would it be possible at the very least to convince Christians to stop evangelizing their religion? They can believe whatever they want.
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're preaching to the choir. I don't try to force my personal beliefs down the proverbial throat of others.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps, YOU don't, but many other Christians do. Or, perhaps you do but aren't aware that you're doing it.
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you'll show me where I did, I'll try to correct my evil ways.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I do see that, I'll point it out.
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rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

It always puzzles me why either belief bothers the other so much.

Didn't Einstein say something about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results? I think that applies to just about everyone.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Humans are insane at time I suppose.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
What makes me laugh is atheists claiming that it's not a religion, hanging out in religious forums and arguing their different points of view. Just because someone doesn't believe in God, doesn't necessarily follow that all of their belifs make sense. Atheists can also inhabit insane asylums. Just because someone is crazy, doesn't necessarily follow that they are religious. Any of you aware of the book of prophecy that was authored by Sir Isaac Newton? Yep...I think he set the big day sometime in 2035.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So this is a religious forum? I thought it was a public forum discussing the two subjects? As far as Isaac Newton having a prophecy... I don't believe he or anyone is qualified to make such a claim. You can predict the whether but you can't assure that that your prediction will be 100% accurate.
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Shiningstar4u2cposted 12 years ago
I love the name of this forum. please atheist, leave us insane Christians alone!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We would love to do that, unfortunately, many Christians believe they've been commanded to spread the Gospel, which means they won't leave others alone. In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But have you thought you encourage Christians by coming to their forums? If you ignored them they'd keep quiet.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, they wouldn't, and you know it. Many have stated they are commanded to spread the Gospel, and you know that, too.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By ignoring them I mean boycotting their forums.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These are not Christian forums. I'm not certain why this fact continues to escape you. Are you ignoring it, simply for the opportunity to create conflict?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She isn't referring to these forums. She is referring to the forums labelled Christian.
  
  She posted the thread in the atheist section because she is addressing atheists in her line of query.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Vector.
  
  I just assumed everyone would know why I posted in the atheist section.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Anytime.
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, that will accomplish what?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It will accomplish them not being able to preach to you. If they come to the atheist forums, just ignore them. They will soon go away.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Well it was fun ....

I'm all clean and smelling good ...... Got my cowboy boots on; ...

I'm going out and have some more.

Later.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Pontius Pilate existed. Herod (both of them) existed. Peter and Paul existed. James the Lesser existed. Joseph of Arimathea existed. Even the Jews don't deny that Jesus existed. You all sound quite ignorant of these facts.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we're ignorant of facts.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice to have some admissions for a change.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which fact are you laughing about. Obviously you don't know much about logical fallacies and what a slippery slope you are on! Pilate is recorded in Rome, as is Paul and Peter. Arimathea is also recorded in Rome as some kind of mining minister. The Jews don't deny Jesus lived, they merely deny him as their messiah. And yes, those facts which you are totally ignorant of you gets the same response as the one you just gave. Therefore, you are also ignorant of how to debate.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the Jews lack of denial is hard evidence of Jesus' existence.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you think THEY would if they thought it actually was an issue? Why not deny that Alexander existed, or any one of the Pharoahs? Maybe Abraham didn't exist. There are no muslims, there are no Jews. Pathetic.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jews believe in all kinds of ridiculous nonsense when it comes to religion.
  
  Funny how you confuse hard evidence with myths.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No where did I say that it was "Hard" evidence. The existence of those around the main figure of Jesus is indicative that the man really lived. Now, as to whether or not he posessed super powers is totally another issue. That is better solid ground for a debate. To deny one prehistoric life is pointless and inarguable from a logical point of view. Sorry, but I think you are not terrible good in this forum, or any other religious forum. It isn't what you are putting in your mouth which defiles you! It is what's coming out. Get a grip, old guy!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, just like eggs are indicative to the existence of the Easter Bunny.
  
  From an incredible weak argument to focusing on me. Well done, sir. Your logical fallacies are stacked high and wide.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  it is illogical to assume that eggs are indicative of the easter bunny. It would be more logical to assume that eggs are indicative of that which laid the eggs.
  Your tailor made argument is just that, tailor made and incredibly weak.
  
  whatever happened to beelzedad
  and hows your health these days ATM?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is exactly the same incredibly weak argument put forth to that which was responded, of course. That's why it's so incredibly weak.
  
  Fine, thanks. I had a long chat with the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada who directed me to the Pentecostal church in Duncan and feel much better now.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not ignorance, but lack of support for saying the man existed. We are not denying the others ever existed, take a little from factual history can make most anything seem real when written correctly. It does not however, make it actually real. We can prove that those people existed, but there is no record anywhere outside of the bible that Jesus ever existed. Some say that his real name is Joshua and that's why we cant find proof, but the proof we look for is the disciples that were always with him, the crowds that followed him, things such as that, of which there is no evidence in history at all. That is why at least, I claim that he didn't exist, at least as not more than man and certainly not with all the crowds and such that are proclaimed to have been around him. Likely not even with the disciples.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think a billion christians speak pretty loudly. It started as twelve. Most people who have ever lived are not recorded anywhere. Do you doubt they existed? Here's a good for instance: They say that YESHUA was crucified. Crucifixion has only one piece of hard evidence. One single heel bone with a spike through it, yet, it was a VERY popular form of punishment, especially in the Roman empire. During the Spartacus rebellion, thousands of people were crucified, and it was also popular in Carthage, and probably several other places, and still, all we have is one heel bone that suggests it was a real form of punishment.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They assume much about history, I don't deny this. However, I don't try to make heads or tails of things when I run into inconclusive facts. You say a billion Christians speak pretty loudly, but you have to remember as well that during the time of Jesus, he was only amongst the Jews, and only the Jews that were local to his location at that. We can claim several things from this, but we really don't need to claim anything. If you consider the bible a history book, and you consider it as 100% factual, then there is a lot that you have to learn to accept from it. First is that Jesus was a Jew. Second is the Jesus only spoke with the Jews. Third is that Jesus was a teacher amongst the Jews and there for had to be married, as was their law. Fourth Jesus never once said that he came to change the law, only to fulfill it. I could keep going with things that have to be learned from it but what is the point? A believer in anything is going to believe regardless of what you say, do, or can prove. In the end it all changed nothing. We just end up in a long, rather pointless, debate about the subject of what a person chooses to believe.
  
  The facts however, no matter how you try to spin them, are completely and utterly inconclusive. You say billions of Christians, but when the only followers of Christ were Jews, and didn't even number in the millions much less billions, it's kind of hard to claim. Jews were kept strict count of as their ideals might do what they did in the time of Constantine and cause problems. As a result, though Constantine never converted, he did bring Christianity to a nation and start something that allowed it to grow and gather more followers.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  amongst the Jews and there for had to be married, as was their law.
  
  NOT TRUE
  Jesus was not an ORDAINED teacher or rabbi. This was a title of respect not one due to mans ordination.
  Jesus never wrote the test
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He lived amongst the Jews and was regarded as a prophet and a teacher. Not to mention he came to fulfill Jewish law, not some made up stuff that people want to believe. In order to fulfill Jewish law he would have had to have been married before attempting to teach. It's not about being ordained in anything, it's about the laws of the people and showing the up most respect for those laws as you try to fulfill them in order to prove that they can be fulfilled. If you take that away then Jesus was a man of sin, which negates his divinity and infallibility. The fact that he was without sin is what established his divinity and subsequently his infallibility.
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  Leafy Denposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot answer for others but I agree that there are factual historical elements in the Bible. There are even some words of wisdom in the Bible. But, the part where it says that Jesus died for people's sins and the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and the bit about eternal life in heaven is the part where it goes fictional/fairy tale. I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I believe it is someone's interpretation of stories, of things that were said, fiction combined with facts. Shakespeare's plays were set in a lot of real places and he used real people from history but a lot of the stories were fictionalized. The Bible is simply a compilation of mixed fact and fiction.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Iliad was once considered totally fiction. I will add that much that Jesus said has been misinterpreted. Correct interpretations may exist, but not in the mainstream. Cofusion begins when one tries to determine between Jesus and the spirit which was speaking through him. Paul didn't help, because he stands many times in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. Comparing a writer to another is also risky, as some writers write from facts, some writers don't, and there is a full spectrum in between. Might as well discuss whether or not Buddha existed.
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  Leafy Denposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you personally know that what Jesus said was misinterpreted? Were you there? Did you get a chance to take Jesus aside and ask him what he really meant? And, remind me, what does this have to do with Buddha? LOL!
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since you got here late. Buddha is historical as much as Jesus is, yet his existence isn't disputed. How do I know about misinterpretation. Pick ten different churches and find out what they believe...ten differnt interpretations. Jesus' help isn't required for this. unless, of course, you want it from the horse's mouth, reading what he actually said reveals that many of his followers are barking up the wrong tree. I think it's that part about throwing the first stone.
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  Leafy Denposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Going by the topic of this thread, it is about Atheists and Christians... If you read my posts, I never said anything about Buddha. If other people did, well, I have nothing to do with that. But, since you mention it, when I took the comparative world religions course at university many years ago, the dispute over Buddha's existence was raised. Apparently, his existence is disputed but maybe not with the same fervor as the dispute over Jesus' existence. I believe that if Jesus did exist, which he probably did in some form, his words have been misinterpreted simply because of so many translations and human nature to apply meaning to what is said even when it is mostly guesswork as best. Most modern languages have a lot of colloquialisms that thousands of years from now could be very misinterpreted simply because the people deciphering it will not understood how it was used and understood in daily conversation. By the way, I am not an atheist, a Christian or a Buddhist so, maybe I am not qualified to even be commenting on this thread but I found the reasoning behind what was being said fascinating.
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wilmiers77posted 12 years ago
Jesus is confirmed within our mind in our spirit. Although, I am sure that Jesus existed. If you haven't found Him in historical records, than maybe by Him being a threat to the powers that be at the time they attempted to eradicate the records. After all, for a historical figure to have changed the world to the extent as Jesus has, being fictitious is overwhelmingly unlikely.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My point exactly. I will add that there are probably elements of exaggeration, as all stories that are passed by word of mouth usually present. Different perspectives of eye witnesses, etc. but even our myths have a grain of truth obscurred by millenia of retelling.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks! Helpful point for me.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You assuming that Jesus was much of a threat to anyone. He is purported to be a man of peace, which would mean that he was no threat to anyone, ever. Unless you want to contest that that is not true? Eradicating records, seem to be thought of as a highly common practice. The truth is, that it happened rarely, and only through a complete change of Government. At the time of Jesus and Herod, Rome was in power and that didn't change for a long time after that. There would've been no reason to change or eradicate the records then. If they exist and are not there, there must be another reason for it.
  
  Your claiming Jesus has changed the world. The problem is that nothing has changed from the time he arrived until now, except that science has become more popular and a lot of the Christian Denominations indirectly have a lot of innocent blood on their hands. Something that they didn't have before.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Now your turn: "I came NOT TO BRING PEACE, but division and a sword. I will set a mother against her daughter, and a father against his son." He could lay claim to Herod's crown. That is why he was perceived as a threat. He didn't scare Rome then....that would come later. He also said that knowledge would increase. He also said that EVERYONE would be following after the beast....and they are, even his own "Followers", who really follow Paul.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And if christianity hasn't markedly changed the world...then why worry about it?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can concur with that as I perhaps understand better then most what your saying there. He did say that he came to bring division and a sword. Again nothing that I contest. That could be why was perceived as a threat, though he himself never tried to lay claim to Herod's crown, others didn't that for him.
  
  It's not for me about whether or not Christianity has markedly changed the world, it's about the misconceptions people have about what they are doing and why they are doing it. Many only know what has been told to them or implyd around them. To know the truth is to see the way. I don't dispute God's existence, I just dispute the way in which people decide they are going to interpret the bible, or more accurately, the way in which they allow it to be interpreted to them as many don't take the time to study, read, and learn on their own.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You assuming that Jesus was much of a threat to anyone. He is purported to be a man of peace, which would mean that he was no threat to anyone, ever.
  
  The Pharisees considered him a threat. One cannot berate and logically crush a top gun and not get away with it. Jesus kicked at the law and said basically, it is folly to follow the law you cannot keep it and you don't keep it. This made them angry and they plotted to kill him.
  
  and as Druid said.. Jesus knew that preaching the ONE way to GOD was gonna create division, he did not avoid mentioning it or preaching it because it is/was true. There is no political correctness in Jesus, no whitewashing the intent of God or downplaying of what God is doing and some were gonna be left behind, some were gonna get angry, some were gonna destroy a household.
  
  Unless you want to contest that that is not true?
  not true, i could quote you scripture but that would just get you angry again
  
  Eradicating records
  there really is no need to eradicate records since religious movements were not considered historical or noteworthy material by the romans.
  Acts 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, ran a school of Law said that.
  The only people who regarded God were the Jews and God is intertwined with Jewish history - the two are inseparable. So Rome would not care to document this, albeit, a few hastened some words to paper.
  
  Your claiming Jesus has changed the world. The problem is that nothing has changed from the time he arrived until now,
  
  I think this is quite the statement. You look on the worldview of this as being insignificant but you ignore that the message of the bible is not that God will change the world, but God will change you. So the nothing you say has happened has happened in individual lives. Jesus said "the world hates me therefore it hates you". Jesus never intended for the world to change although he longed for that to happen but he did often say, He would change lives. So the change you don't see happening, happens on individual people and God smiles at that.
  
  except that science has become more popular
  Yah i see science majors graduating all the time from schools.
  "To give an example, last summer 12,000 psychology students and 10,000 history students graduated (I chose these subjects because they are two of the most popular - psychology is actually the fastest growing in the UK). In the same year, only 2200 physics students and 2400 chemistry students graduated."
  This may not be a popularity poll but google what you say next time and enough with the assumptions.
  
  and a lot of the Christian Denominations indirectly have a lot of innocent blood on their hands. Something that they didn't have before.
  
  oh i dislike this. Catholics not christians. I know you are referring to catholicism. The last time my church and i went on a crusade was... ummmmmmmmmmm..... never.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus never kicked at the law. He in fact quite frequently told people that they had to follow the law, that they had to give tax payers their do. The one thing he is showing as having done against the law is to throw the tax payers from the temple when he was child. That is the only time he shown to challenge anything to do with law at all.
  
  Your assuming I've gotten angry in the first place. Assumption just makes an ass out of you. Something worth remembering with all the assumptions to tend to make.
  
  Religious movements were considered very very noteworthy. Thus do we have some record of the Jews through the Romans. We also have a record of the establishment of the Catholic Church. These things were recorded by the romans because they knew of the troubles that could be caused by Religion and Belief. To say that they were not considered Historical or Noteworthy is proven wrong just by the simple fact that they did indeed record such things.
  
  I never said anything about the Religion not changing people on an individual level. What I was saying was in reply to "After all, for a historical figure to have changed the world to the extent as Jesus has, being fictitious is overwhelmingly unlikely." In order to accurately make that claim, you must assume that Jesus has changed the entire world. The entire world is unchanged and unaffected by the coming or going of Jesus. Only those who choose to be affected by it have been, which in NO way denotes the entire world.
  
  Psychology and history are both forms of science. Perhaps you need to understand what it is your saying before you decide to challenge something.
  
  No, Catholics directly have a lot of blood on their hands. Other Christians, by allowing them to do what they did and continue to do, indirectly have blood on their hands. The worst kind of evil is the evil of good men and women doing nothing.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He said what the Bible says.. You follow the law of the land you're in. With the exception it conflicts with God's law.
  
  Under which circumstance you follow God's law, even if man says not to.
  
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "After all, for a historical figure to have changed the world to the extent as Jesus has, being fictitious is overwhelmingly unlikely."
  
  "TO THE EXTENT..." is a limiting expression to entire world. Not entire world!
  
  But, one must admit that Jesus has been one of the most influential persons during the pass 2000 years. In the 13th century Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire Jesus became virtually king during those dark ages.
  
  You must remember that the hierarchy of the church was the history recorders and keepers. Since they were responsible for the crucifixtion of Jesus, I am sure they wouldn't have recorded and kept such records. The Romans didn't really give a sh**t.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I will give you that the effect that Jesus has had on people over the last 2,000 years is quite impressive. To the extent that he is debated by most everyone is impressive in and of itself, so I will give you that one.
  
  The Church as it has come to be known was not established until after the time of Jesus. Their history recorders and keepers would therefore be irrelevant in this. The Romans, more specifically Herod, charged Jesus with treason and conspiracy to take the throne, which would then have to be recorded so that the Emperor or current Caesar would know what happened and why. The Jews at that time, though not all over the world still had a powerful presence in the society in which they lived. They would've been highly upset at the crucifixion of their Prophet which could cause an uprising. Caesar would've had to be informed in order to make sure Herod had enough troops to be able to subdue the masses if they did decide to rise up.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree about the church because they used only word of mouth. This word of mouth was completely recorded and compiled into the bible 300 years after Christ Jesus.
  
  As far as the Romans are concerned, Rome was not that centralized as many people may think. Regional governors made all decides final; they only called on Rome if had need of more soldiers and materials. At which time, the governor had to justify such action to the Emperor. Much authority was delegated to the subordinates of the Emperor. Communication was difficult during such time. The Emperor at the time only received army need help to hold the region or to assure that region is sending tax revenue.
  
  The Jesus episode was actually insignificant to the ruling Emperor. I am not surprise that no records have been uncovered about the Jesus episode. Although, I have heard that there are record. I shall do farther research.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I plan on doing more research as well as I personally would like to know. What will be found, only time will tell.
  
  I give you that Communication was difficult, and it could be that any plea for more troops might have never made it to Caesar. That is fully possible as caravans and messengers were frequently attacked during those times. If they were attacked though, then the record would still exist, we'd just have to find out what happened to it.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen EinderDarkwolf.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Than, why was he crucified by the powers that was if not being enough of a threat?
  
  Why wouldn't the Romans not desire to eradicate the records? There is a possibility that the records never made it to Rome, but as you stated the government did change, and more nearer the event then to the present. What you pose is too weak; flying around like a butterfly.
  
  Jesus has changed the world. I don't believe you know the impact that Jesus has had on our social development over the pass 2000 years.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was crucified because the people were declaring him King, not because of anything he himself did. The Jews caused his crucifixion indirectly when they began these claims. The claims in turn became a threat to Herod. Jesus himself did nothing to promote such things.
  
  Why would the Romans desire to eradicate their own records? Especially when not to far later they would accept him as a saviour and turn him into a government religion? If they have the evidence to support him, why destroy such a thing? It would only make their Governmental Religion all the more popular. He didn't threaten the foundations of Rome. In fact he ended up strengthening them that much more. You say that what I'm posing is weak, yet there is no reason for them to have destroyed these records except that it supports what you claim. There is no reason at all for them to have destroyed them at all. They ended up needing them in fact. The records not existing would've had to have been noted when they went looking for them at the establishment of the Catholic church.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have a good argue, except that the Roman's didn't care about keeping a record of Jesus. If one read the Jesus episode, than one can see that the threat was to the Jewish religious hierarchy and not the Roman government. It was very common for holy men to rise into popularity during those times, and Jesus was no exception to the Roman government. Recall that when Jesus was taken to the Roman Governor, and he became irritated about it...finally saying that I find no fault in this man. Take him back to Herod...this is a Jew matter, and this was spoken with prejudice, like "Don't bring him back to me." The Roman's was only interested in persons that attempted to organize a rebellion against them. Jesus faultily being accuse of saying that he was king of the Jews weighted little; after all, Herod was a Jewish King, and he would be threaten only. Also, recall that even Herod gave the people the choice to crucify Jesus or Rabis(?) showing that Herod didn't feel that threaten. It was the religious Jewish hierarchy that insisted that Jesus be crucified. They felt very threaten.
  
  So, I hold strongly onto what I previously posed. No record on file. Jesus becoming King of the Catholic Church established by Emperor Constantinople only led to a situation of "heck, we should have recorded the Jesus episode!"
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In that light I can agree with you. We unfortunately have no way of knowing the mind of the people so we cannot say for certain, but this doesn't present another way of looking at it.
  
  Haha, there are unfortunately many instances of that, even today!
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peeplesposted 12 years ago
I usually go to christian forums for two reasons. One is to try and understand them a little better because my husband is christian. The other reason is because sadly I am kind of like them in the sense that when I see them speak about how we atheist have no morals I feel a strong need to tell them how wrong they are.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you take into account the harsh atheists that rant and try to disrupt and destroy just for the sake of some psychological reason they have. You have to admit we have some doozies in here and for the amount of abuse the christians take, we suck it up well. I am sure the atheist would be punching first in any meeting for coffee.
  enjoy....
  I am extremely glad to know your best and loving husband is christian. God hears every sincere heart and has healing for all things.
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  peeplesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do understand that there are extremist in any group. Honestly the atheist who bash for the sake of bashing make me sick because they make us all look like fools. As for who would throw the first punch, who can tell. I have known crazies on both sides of the table! I just wish we could all come to accept that disagreeing doesn't have to mean name calling and bashing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi peeples, welcome to HP forums. Allow me to introduce you to the real brotheryochanan and some words he had for one of our most esteemed atheist members who recently passed away; Earnest...
  
  "brotheryochanan wrote:
  
  So much i could say but it would be construed as just nasty meanness.
  and you'd probably be right.
  
  I Don't know where you get this mr nice guy stuff from? My perception is that he lied constantly, printed misinformation willingly, made himself out to be someone who he wasn't. Was blatantly rude beyond what is normal. He spewed crap like it was second nature and the list goes on.
  
  The only thing i think he knew was cars.
  
  I am just glad he isn't going to be in torments the rest of eternity, burned by the fires of hell - cuz that don't exist. He went peaceful - so we are told and he will get what he wanted - nothingness after death.
  
  He could have done so much better but he held onto the anger.
  Lets hope others find God through loss."
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/88788
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artblack01posted 12 years ago
Because they are in the majority in America, they help to put people into offices of power and they constantly violate our basic freedoms and our 1st Amendment rights, they try and prosthelytize our children as they have done and continue to try and do to us. If you remain silent that can be mistaken for acceptance. I don't bash I merely contradict the things I find to be wholly untrue, assumptions, logical fallacies or out and out lies.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  peeplesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In short respect is earned by all no matter beliefs.
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to mention being immaturely attacked by people such as Vector7, who, when having lost an argument and having nothing more to say in his defense proceeds to attack a person's character and claim victory in an argument without providing any evidence for his claim.... this is the sort of thing I have seen in the last 20 years of having this sort of conversation with Christians, many of them do this and it pushes me further from the respect that other nice Christians, such as Claire Evans, deserves.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol, You aggrevated the pee out of me and now I'm your attacker???
  
  Get over yourself. You asked for me to pick at you, and please quote me from now on.
  
  I haven't said anything mean to you.
  
  Everyone has a finger to point and nothing to show.. lol
  
  Btw, slandering my name behind my back all over the threads without an ounce of proof? THAT is attacking character.
  
  No quote necessary, just look up.
  
  Drop it and you'll never hear another peep, but I won't let you go around spilling lies.
  
  Quotes, and you get apologies. Lies, and you get proof they are such.
  
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
He was crucified because those who were threatened by him insisted on it...the Jews of the San Hedren, etc. Rome wasn't threatened by Jesus, but they didn't want to fire a Jewish revolt. This is why Pilate washed his hands of the matter
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They visit the Insane Christian Forums because all of the Insane Atheist forums are BORING!
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol, perhaps I should go check out the Atheist (anyone else notice that Atheist if separated say a theist?) and liven them up a bit..
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. That is because Atheist is the same kind of word as asexual. No, that isn't a slam. "A" in this instance is a prefix
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kind of like scientists will believe facts and only accept theories until proven fact? Kind of kills the point in saying that you don't believe in a God of any type and such then..after all they are all theories...interesting and thank you Druid Dude.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Scientists speak of evolution as fact..
  
  It's a theory.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, we are to understand that you're statement, from the perspective of a religious believer who claims to have met Jesus is somehow valid over that of what scientists claim?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yay yay !
  
  It's soo funny
  
  ...
  
  Seriously
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know this isn't my conversation or whatever, but why is it when y'all overly abuse emoticons, it reminds me of the old Arcade game called Pac-Man?
  LOL!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Oh.. my bad..
  
  LOL
  
  It's hard not to..
  
  It's gives me a face dude.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, at least your emoticons vary from one to the next...
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those are Christian shades Insane...
  
  We have a club....
  
  But we had to go underground for awhile..
  
  Wasn't cool..
  
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here I was, thinking my shades represented the "Men in Black."
  Spotted any UFOs lately? I may be knocking on your door... LOL!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Other scientist say that it is a theory. Experience is king.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? So-called Christian scientists? Again, you are just being dishonest.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Secular scientist!
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Slave2ChristJesusposted 12 years ago
I believe you mean Emperor Constantine. Constantinople was the city named after Constantine I.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Looks like this has turned into an insane christian hub. Christians +1, Lions 0.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Any chance to learn and grow should be taken, no matter what your religion, beliefs, or place in which you reside.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol...
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christianajohanposted 12 years ago
Atheists visit Christian forums not to actually to criticize but to know the truth and they can't find happiness being alone.

Blessed be all of you and you may find the true path of life.

Those who visit here in Christian forums maybe are born atheists and seeking God but those who became atheists from Christian are hypocrites and arrogant and may lost their ways in the future.

They are ungrateful of the blessings they receive from God.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet all we find are LIES!
  
  BASELESS!!!
  
  Which God? Thor, Ra, Zeus....the Ju-Ju of the Sea?
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So if all you find are lies...what are you doing here????
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Waiting on one of you to tell the truth. Can YOU tell the truth? Or are you another liar for Jeebus...with no integrity? Please give me something more than the childish foolishness I've been reading from all the deluded believers in these forums...so I can become a believer, therefore I won't have to go to hell.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "another liar for Jeebus..."
  
  What are you?
  
  A Mark Knowles mini-me?
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since I am a 200 pound former Marine, I take issue with anyone using the term mini to describe me.
  
  Furthermore, if I want to use the term "Jeebus" there is no refeence to Mark, as he did not coin the term. So what is your point, except to show adolescence.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your size wasn't being referenced in physical terms...lol
  
  You think he didn't coin the term? I think he'd disagree.
  
  And very testy for someone with numerous exclamation points in most of his posts.
  
  Using that picture of me might as well fool you, as I'm not 'that dumb kid' you're thinking of.
  
  If you don't like the association then I wouldn't use the phrases common to his reputation. Think?
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I forgot to say thank you.
  
  I prefer looking young rather than old.
  
  I used to hate it. But I've come to appreciate it.
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought you were about 15. Seriously.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well thx man!
  
  Really?
  
  Well, maybe it'll stay that way. The girls usually shoot at 22, but I'm not that young either.
  
  Boy, you made my day. Not that I think you meant to.. lol
  
  I'm not worried what you or anyone else thinks about my looks if that tells you anything.
  
  But I'll take the compliment.
  
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot comment about your looks, but judging from the comments you make, you are less than 15.
  Just teasing...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am a 235 pound former paratrooper of the 82nd Airborne kind, and I take issue with anyone using Jeebus when referring to my Lord Jesus who was crucified on the cross for all of us as does my brother in the Body of Christ, Vector7. I am not angry, but I do defend Jesus.
  
  Once I saw the light, my faith has been revealing truth after truth, epitomes after epitomes, and mysteries after mysteries; revealing atheist as hopelessly fighting in a small arena of life. They even think that they are seeing more than Jesus lovers.
  
  I can not prove God to you, the atheist, but God continues to reveal Himself thru Jesus to me and others of the body of Christ.
  
  Atheist scream no when a follower of Jesus says that they will pray for them, but deep in the atheist heart they are wanting to be saved. Physical death is one thing, but spiritual (soul) eternal death is another thing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you defend Jesus so much that you have to make blatant and dishonest false statements to defend Him.
  
  How sad and desperate is that.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Personal experiences supercede science and especially any other layman's opinion. Experience is the father of knowledge.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People who count experience above evidence usually end up in the psychiatry wards!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  From the teachings you attempt in the forums, I think you know a bit about those wards don't ya jomine?
  
  lol
  
  Just teasin..
  
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, studying those patients were part of my undergraduate curriculum, so I can easily spot such patients!
  And I don't teach vector(in the forums), I'm like the audience who appreciate Good music and laugh at bad. So where I see reason and logic, I congratulate/appreciate them and when I see illogic or irrational ones I laugh at them(or point out the contradictions, if they listen). So far you have not given much reason to congratulate you.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is all about the experience, uh, duh! ...And you speak about insane asylums while denying such things? LOL!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only the deluded and insane believe that nonsense.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you knew what I meant by being saved, than I would hold you responsible for your comment.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying "your" meaning of the word saved is different from other Christians?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You also don't have the slightest idea about being saved by any Christian standard.
  Where did you get your antibeliefs; at the neighborhood bar? Think that I shall drop by U R bar while going about my Heavenly Father's business, and have a sip of wine. LOL!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would you take issue with something that was not even personally directed at you? Furthermore, since Jesus is imaginary, the only point that you seem to be asserting is that you have a serious disconnect with reality.
  
  Get Real. You are only suffocating your mind with psychosis. You are learning nothing but how to be a non-thinker...a sheep. This delusional god can do nothing.
  
  And you think that somehow you are to be taken seriously when you rant testimonies like this, then conclude, by your very own words, that you have NO PROOF. Please never go to court with this mentality.
  
  You continue with this delusional rant although your credibility is completely shot. Never underestimate the power of a silly 2000 year old LIE, I guess.
  
  Saved from what? Get rid of these worn out old fashioned beliefs, dude. This BS doesn't mean a thing to anyone except the fearful deluded mind. Join the 21st century.
  
  More ranting with no proof. Just how do you expect atheist to believe you? Just what are we doing wrong? Since you have provided no proof, and admitted that you CAN'T provide any, why are you p_ssed at us for doing what you, yourself, would actually do...if someone gave a testimonial about an expensive product, then asked you to buy it, with no proof that the product even existed? WOULD YOU BUY IT? WOULD YOU? This is a serious disconnect from reality.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's right, getitrite! You tell 'em!
  How can they religiously rant before your atheist chant!?
  Why do they even try to tell you a bogus tale before you speak about a fictitious evolutionary whale!?
  How dare them speak of philosophic hell while you're an angel that can scientifically sing well!
  Yeah, make those atheists look good!
  To hell with Noah and the flood!
  LOL!
  You guys are funny, I'll give ya that...
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't really have a point do you...unless it is to write poetry that sucks?
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The quality of poetry was in response to the poor quality of your response, hence forth a reciprocation of your notion, eh?
  The outcome was that the hubber 'getitrite' didn't get it right, poetic justice? Nah! LOL!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Insane Mundane hilariously inflamed....
  
  LOL..
  
  That next post up was RICH......
  
  Oh yeah..
  
  Think I might pick back up.. [men in black \ Christian mastermind]
  
  Hmmm
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Complete childish drivel.
  
  I guess I hit a nerve. Good!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Jeebus" my friend. Are you that insensitive not to know why I responded.
  
  The hold that you think you have on reality is fallacious. Check with a few science disciplines concerning reality. I suggest psychology, physics, and futuristic engineering for starters.
  
  The future is in the imagination. All technology of today began in the imagination. I am sure that you are not responsible for none of it. By your previous comments the device would have to be shown to you as proof that it exist!! Dead head.
  
  Ever thought of where your emotions originate? The mind does more involuntary work constantly than conscience work. This involuntary activity goes deep into the inner sanctuary of the mind. I would recommend that you study some of those scientists research, but it might shatter your logical and supposedly connected to reality mind when you read the positive role that Christianity plays. Dr. Carolyn Leaf
  
  Governments love your kind of mind because they can easily become your reality. Believe me, they will prove logically to you anything that they want too. They have to respect Christians who have a personal relationship with God.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry that you have been so deceived as to think that Santa(Jesus) is real. I forgot that some people never grow out of childhood fantasy.
  
  Let me guess: All these disciplines will confirm, categorically, that Goddunnit!
  
  But this has absolutely nothing to do with your invisible magical skydaddy, and your 2000 year old book of nonsense...now does it? Why don't you say something relevant?
  
  I am quite sure Muslims and other brainwashed religions would fight you to the death, because they are sure that it was their God who has had the greater impact. So how do you explain this disparity, without looking ridiculously closed-minded and biased?
  
  Quite the contrary. Your religion IS the government. Atheism is not sanctioned by the government, religion is. A candidate who espouses atheism will never be elected, but a candidate can pepper his speeches with references to God, and become president. Exhibit A: George W. Bush.
  
  So, my friend, you must see that it is you who is the sheep of the government, because you have decided to allow others to think for you...going as far as to allow them to deceive you into believing that a 2000 year old book of childish fairytales is sacred.
  
  Yep. Just like they have proven "LOGICALLY" to you that a 2000 year old book of barbaric childish fairytales was inspired by God, and that YOU should never ever question them...LOGICALLY.
  
  You don't have a personal relationship with God. God is imaginary. The government has tricked you into believing this nonsense so that you are helpless against their control.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's recorded forever that you said it; I didn't.
  
  That's "reality", not whether God exist.
  
  That's "tech", research and development, not a statement whether God exist.
  
  Christians and Muslims are much more alike than difference. The main difference is that Jesus is considered a great prophet and us Christians know Him as the Son of God.
  
  You are void of knowledge of the Word of God. You are giving blanket denial of supreme moral codes considered needed in all cultures and religions such as love and care for your fellow man.
  
  God is for all the people; when believers hold strongly to God and the Word of God the gov't can not suppress the people's freedoms. Personal relationship with Jesus is freeing!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Big deal!
  
  You are not making one bit of sense.
  
  Then only talk tech, please, and stop trying to tie it to your delusion.
  
  The main similarity is that they are both dangerously delusional.
  
  What a silly assumption. My father was a minister, and I was made to go to church very often. I was saved probably before you were born. There is no such thing as the word of God...and anyone who has allowed himself to be duped into believing such a deception is nothing but a sucker.
  
  No I'm not. Why do you need to slander for Jesus? I have said nothing against morals. Your bloody religion has almost nothing to do with morals. I guess one of your supreme moral codes would be to go from house to house, killing innocent children, just because they happened to be the first born. Wow!!! What a moral God you serve.
  
  Your God is a bloody, nasty, psychotic beast...full of hatred. It's a good thing that the only place this piece of garbage exists is in the pages of the UNHOLY BIBLE.
  
  No the government is right in step with you.
  
  But there are others, like the freethinkers on this forum, and others, that have taken away that carte blanche that the government had given you. It is us who took prayer out of schools, and stopped Intelligent Design from being taught. It is us who have demanded that you keep your nonsensical beliefs separate from state...not the government.
  
  Apparently it frees you from the use of your mind, because your critical thinking is almost nonexistent.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you have shown me that you know nothing of the Word of God. Now, I have discovered that you know very little science, metaphysics, or philosophy. Don't be shocked when I tell you that physics leads to metaphysics, and optimum metaphysics becomes theology. Of course, I know that you dad told you about theology.
  
  Critical thinking is for business (like work), not whole life that revolves around love and many other intangibles.
  
  I sure wouldn't boost about taking prayer out of school. Take a unifying positive out of the equation of life, and you get a chaotic negative effect.
  Every culture that has ever existed for a reasonable time has created a higher power. Now, you have popped up Johnny come lately, and you are publishing that there is no God when blood has been shed by millions to grow into the spirituality that is available presently. But "let her roll"; your gamble is much larger than mine.
  
  Thaw out! You are iced in, up tight, and rebellious.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What an elaborate and irrelevant SMOKESCREEN. You go on and on, declaring that I possess no education in certain subjects...just because I refuse to let you bully me into abdicating my mind, and blindly accepting your unprovable, illogical, silly, primitive, delusional beliefs.
  
  Just prove to me that I should believe in your invisible, imaginary skydaddy...although you have supplied me with no proof...and you have admitted that you can't. Just how do you deal with living with this type of dishonesty?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You really are deaf and dumb, and throw in blind.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Typical delusional behavior. Can't support your claims, so just hurl a barrage of childish and personal insults at the innocent inquirer. Do you realize how immature this makes you look?
  
  Just support your claims or admit that you have been tricked. Oh, but that would make you feel really silly.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hold firmly to each word that I have written. "Let her roll!"
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have supported my claim over and over; it's just that you are...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For the hundredth time, God's spirit confirms it self to an individual in his mind; like one. There is no proof from any of those individuals that can prove God or Jesus to you.
  
  Faith has substance. It's given at the moment of confirmation; its not an air head illusion. Nonbelievers are only telling me that they haven't had the experience. Of course, I don't hold that against them. Just don't know! Simple.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you admit that your delusion is all in your head. Great! You are at least aware that you could possibly be mentally unstable, when it comes to your insane beliefs.
  
  How about that...your very REAL God does not require proof. Using your logic, you can also pretend that you live on Jupiter, without any proof then.
  
  And in your case absolutely nothing has been confirmed, therefore what you are describing is psychosis.
  
  Trust me, it can be nothing but an illusion. You are suffering from the effects of a severe psychological disorder...that is plain and simple.
  
  Yet somehow you are special enough to "experience" this psychotic delusion. You can stop trying to push your "drugs" at anytime. Some of us are too adept at spotting deceit...however there will always be others who succumb to the pressure. They are the weak.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone who have love in their heart for God and His Son and neighbors can have the experience. Evidently you don't.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then why don't you believe in my god AUHSOY who sent her mother to die for us? Anyone who have love in their heart for God and Her mother and neighbors can have the experience.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My God created the universe and all life. Could you please tell me more about your god.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The one who created the all world and everything in it. The angels and lesser gods. Universe is the manifestation of her power. She is the alpha and omega. She is the universe, yet different from it. The eternal.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Than you have given my God another name. God won't slap you down for doing so; my God is love.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The god, who is impersonal, who do not judge, who do not take part in petty human affairs, who has no use of heaven or hell or worship, who is not jealous, who doesn't need worship(For it is perfect), who do not see any difference between any of its creation? What about that?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My God is perfect. So your god have some good qualities as an imitation of my God.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What if your god is the imitation, the anthropomorphic version of my god, to satisfy human sensuality?
  After all, if you are a Christian, your father god who is the same as his son, is described by himself as a jealous one and one who advocated genocide.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What if "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts, oh, what a party we would have.
  
  No, God is not just like His Son; the Son is a part of God.
  
  It appears that historically God has dealt with the people exactly where their minds were at the time. The wages of sin is death. God is not going to allow anyone or thing to stop his plan for us to become eternal beings with Him. Up to the present, no one has lived a perfect life except the Son of God, Jesus because He only did what His Father told Him to do; what he was hearing or was taught by God.
  
  We have freedom of choice not to sin, but do we? No, so each shall die.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There was a mistranslation...
  
  For the wages of sin is death. Should have read. For the wages of sin is candy...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, sin for a season, but the candy is poison, and surely you shall die.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  http://youtu.be/G-khATBDrBU
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  wilmiers77, you seem to be pretty good on the book knowledge, but what about the knowledge of what really goes on inside of YOU? Do you love the essence of yourself? Are you worthy? If not, only inward searching will change things. It's no good you worrying about what others do with their lives. It's none of your business. Any judgement you make is inadequate, because you are not in possession of the facts.
  
  So, deal with the mote in your own eye first.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are we our brothers keeper? You bet, because our brothers might kill you and I if they are not taught or dealt with correctly.
  
  Anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. In God I trust, but all others must be tempered.
  
  About the mote, "In the Name of Jesus", speaking the Word Of God, does the trick every time as far as myself is concerned. I do have love in my heart.
  
  God gives me my worth.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only a true Moron could believe such a thing. Fear destroys wisdom. In fact it destroys most every thought in the head. There is no wisdom without thoughts.
  
  I take it that you and Pat Robertson are both Telepaths? That's the only way any such statement could be anywhere near confirmed as true. You would have to know the thoughts of every man, woman, and child in that city before the disaster struck. I know you didn't know those thoughts and neither did the moron who wants to promote hate and fear.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OOH!! Some true colors are flying...Ok, lets start walking to the wood shed.
  
  I stated the "Beginning of wisdom...". The scripture says "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Although, I am holding to its manifestation in the mind of secular human. Necessity is the father of invention. Well, fear of any thing necessitates the accelleration of the development for an antidote, than fear exist no more. Based on initial fear, as one become more wiser, wise men looks farther into the future, and as the saying goes, "He not only knows when to play, but he is better at holding, and most wisely at when to fold. I ask you is this more fear initiated or only glorious thoughts of material gain.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't try to make sense - it is apparent you could hurt yourself with the effort.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dead rock religion speaking!!!!
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True colors? I don't think I ever changed my stance on anything. I thought I made it quite clear that I'm not a Christian as they are known, and I certainly don't support the bible as fact, so what have I not shown you that you just saw in order to make that statement?
  
  It's funny that you can only argue one of the two points of my post. However, as we go about this again, let us look at the human reaction to fear. The human reaction to fear leaves one thought, and one drive. That is to run. To get away as quickly as possible and as far as you can go from the thing you fear. They don't try to find an antidote. In fact, many people live their lives with the same fears they had as a child. There is not an antidote for fear except to face it. Even then you can die of fear itself. Therefore in fear, whether it be past, present, or future, there can be no wisdom. Wisdom denotes patience and understanding, something you don't find in fear. Fear is irrational and still not understood. Something your God would know if he put that into us, as Psalms says that he did. Therefore there is no beginning to wisdom in fear.
  
  Going strictly off that line of Scripture, it sounds like some ancient spirit may try to come out of nowhere and spank me for not bowing down to it. Unfortunately I don't bow to anyone or anything. I never have and never will.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "true colors"; implying show of deep convictions.
  
  I am thinking beyond what can be seen when I refer to fear, like fear of a threat which has the potential of materializing; to be in the realm of possibility; more closely, an eminent threat which is obvious; last but not least, an immediate threat. You only argued the immediate threat. Yes, if you perceive self as being overwhelmed, than run; if not, fight, resist. Don't need much wisdom in this case.
  
  Having experiences over time, One develops a sense for long term outcomes. Fear of something in the realm of possibility which has been considered prompts the search for an antidote that shall led to a good outcome, this is wisdom. A fool considers not.
  
  Fear of multiple bad outcomes extending into the future causes a subject to not to adhere to a code which needs immediate implication such as "if some one hits me, than I shall hit them back". A man is hit by another, but the man hit who has a larger family alone with the hitter having a large and vicious family decide not to hit back for fear of future outcomes such as the two families shall begin murdering each other. This is wisdom at work knowing when to "fold".
  
  One may ask what about the need motivation such as food, this is not fear motived. Yes it is, the fear of hunger. Fear is the "beginning of wisdom", not to say that fear can not be stopped concerning a particular event. We simply create an antidote.
  
  Never say never.
  
  "It's a fool who says in his heart that there is no God."
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ask yourself this question: Do I really have Love in my Heart? If I see my self as being superior, using Christianity as a prop, so as to have power and control over others, is it really Love? Or is it my own agenda?"
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  None above apply to me in this case; "Am I my brother's keeper?". I consider myself as a servant of God, not a superior being. What God has given me I do stand strongly on it, and witness the goodnews; especial, the parts in which I have personally experienced... my testimony.
  
  You mentioned church control and personal control prop by my religion. Fellow, us Christians are very unpopular in America now. I am considered the dummy among the group to whom I witness. I see no change in the near future. So, where is power to control others? I usually feel shoe top tall immediately after witnessing Jesus. Jesus always raise one after being in a grave situation. This is the works of faith. You are feel to believe what so ever you desire.
  
  I am a servant to the people since I proclaim the goodnews that they should have a much more abundant life...w/o pay, but is humiliated constantly.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Surprise! Surprise!
  
  wilmiers77, I am trying to read between the lines here. I am wondering if your zeal in religion is more a reflection of the real human needs you have at this time in your life.
  
  If the strong beliefs you have are important in your life, that is valid for you. No one has a right to take that away from you, regardless of philosophical opinions. If and when you want to change that state of affairs, it is you choice, no one else's.
  
  My only fear is that you have been "got at" by very persuasive people in the christian camp. Just remember that you stand as a worthwhile, warm, totally acceptable human being, and that you do not need the fear which is generated by fictional beings in the sky.
  
  Wishing you well with your life endeavours.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not surprised at all; I expected it.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  wilmiers77, I am trying to read between the lines here. I am wondering if your zeal in religion is more a reflection of the real human needs you have at this time in your life.
  
  If the strong beliefs you have are important in your life, that is valid for you. No one has a right to take that away from you, regardless of philosophical opinions. If and when you want to change that state of affairs, it is you choice, no one else's.
  
  My only fear is that you have been "got at" by very persuasive people in the Christian camp. Just remember that you stand as a worthwhile, warm, totally acceptable human being, and that you do not need the fear which is generated by fictional beings in the sky.
  
  Wishing you well with your life endeavors.
  
  jonnycomelately,
  
  Life with mother is very good, but the world requires some steel as part of your constitution. Things often go very bad in this world. I was not lucky enough to be born in a sheltered environment.
  
  No, I was a lone soul who decided to walk into the Jesus Camp. This was after I gave my life to Jesus and was reading the bible for my self. The Word of God says, "...don't forsake the gathering in my name...", so not being illiterate, I found the camp. I love it! I did it my way.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is one of the saddest commentaries I have ever seen on HubPages, as I understand precisely the lack of self-image that occurs with indoctrination into fundamental-style Christianity. When it is pounded into your psyche over and over that you are an unworthy sinner who only avoids the eternal damnation of burning hellfire because of your devotion and supplication to an imaginary superbeing, you have no chance to develope a useful and normal human ego.
  
  This was the hardest lesson of my life to learn: I am o.k. as I am.
  
  God does not give you worth - he steals it. If you have no worth without god then you are nothing. That is a sad place to be.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dead rock religion again!!!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AKA Winston wrote:
  This is one of the saddest commentaries I have ever seen on HubPages, as I understand precisely the lack of self-image that occurs with indoctrination into fundamental-style Christianity. When it is pounded into your psyche over and over that you are an unworthy sinner who only avoids the eternal damnation of burning hellfire because of your devotion and supplication to an imaginary superbeing, you have no chance to develope a useful and normal human ego.
  
  This was the hardest lesson of my life to learn: I am o.k. as I am.
  
  God does not give you worth - he steals it. If you have no worth without god then you are nothing. That is a sad place to be.
  Dead rock religion again!!!
  
  AKA,
  
  You talk as if you have spent your time with mother, and not with old dad in his world where things can boil down to prayer to God. No other options; pinned in a foxhole expecting the enemy to over run any time and kill every one. I have been in that situation. Believe me, no one of us soldiers denied God at that time; it was more like OH God save us. Wasn't one atheist amongst us at that time.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is fascinating Wilmiers how all you seem to do is rehash old adages, retell urban legends, or paraphrase a worn cliche'. There is a great, big world out here just waiting for you and it is amazing to behold - but it doesn't respond to magic chants or repetition of memorized spells, so if you want to see it you'll have to lay down your denial.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You ran out on me. Good thing that none of my buddies in those foxholes ran out on me.
  
  Well, I may not be here to see it, but I will leave word with my old boys to look for you walking down the side of the mountain and into the valley called "my assessment of life". You will probably be carrying stone tablets. I don't know what shall be on you tablets, but I am sure that you shall give honorable mention to all old clichés, all old adages, and all old maxims; especially the maxims. Now, you are on the other side and climbing into knowledge and experiences.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Truth, now, Wilmiers. You drink a bit, right?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How better could I have explained a thing unto you? I am not a member of the dead rock religion.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK. Then I'll state plainly. My GOD is the god. She is eternal, impersonal, and do not concern herself with petty human affairs. She do not punish or reward and is not bothered whether anybody worship her.
  Your god is a petty, anthropomorphic imitation of my god, to satisfy the vulgar needs of immature humans.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your god appear to be going nowhere and not developing any immature or vulgar persons to raise about his/her present state.
  
  My God is developing humans to be eternal and spiritual beings.
  
  Sounds as if you belong to the same dead rock religion as AKA.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You prove my point, your god is an imitation of my god to satisfy your craving for an eternal life[or nullify your fear of death and being alone]
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No! But, you have confirmed your dead rock religion by accepting death.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even if we wish all our lifes that the earth be flat, it would never happen!
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, arguments from a rock could be as intellectual stimulating as your arguments - all that would be needed is to paint, I believe! Amen! on the rock and voila!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Still revealing your lack of knowledge of spiritual principles. But, that's your dead rock religion.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Don't be shocked when I tell you that physics leads to metaphysics, and optimum metaphysics becomes theology)
  
  Wilmiers,
  
  You must be terrific at dealing with insults. I know if I were to have a problem myself with being insulted frequently, I would have to come to you for advice because there is no doubt in my mind that you must have to deal with being called an idiot at least a dozen times daily, if not more. And you are so smooth dealing with these insults that it appears you are not even aware that they are insults.
  
  I salute you, sir. Carry on.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, thank you. If necessary, I shall continue. Wish me good luuuuck.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I could not care less about making you a beliver getitrite. If you want to believe so badly than just belive and stop asking others to give you their proof. Otherwise go away and leave the believers in peace.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, does that mean believers will leave everyone else alone, keep their beliefs behind closed doors and stop evangelizing? Is that a promise?
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Does that also mean that atheists will stop invading the believers' threads Troubled? And other peoples' replies like getitrite to me?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hell no!!!! No devils are going to stop me.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What about Angels?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When did they last win a pennant?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Devils are imaginary. Anyone believing otherwise is clearly not thinking for himself.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  trouble man! Trouble Man! Have you observed any events occurring that have probability of 10exp[-59]. I was wondering since most physicist would like to know. Oh, BTW, have you figured how that light got on the head of a fish? The charge is supplied by what power mechanism? Help us trouble, how did the power mechanism evolve since the light needed a charge. Hee! Hee! Hee!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What a ridiculous and weak cop-out. It appears you have no sense of accountability. You assert some ridiculously outlandish beliefs...refuse to provide any proof...then hold ME accountable.
  
  Stop copping out, and provide some proof of your claims please. It's that simple. Then I will become saved, and then other believers and I will come together in peace...and in Christ.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think you have me all wrong. I don't care if you believe or not.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well as long as you support the comments of others who assert this nonsense, you are fair game for rebuttal. Do you understand that?
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you should listen to what I have to say instead of lumping me together with everyone else.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Atheists visit Christian forums not to actually to criticize but to know the truth and they can't find happiness being alone.)
  
  christianajohan,
  
  Here is the header from the top of this page:
  Forums
  Religion and Philosophy
  Atheism and Agnosticism
  
  So I must assume you are visiting this atheist forum for the same reason.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religion doesn't mean Christian. This is not a Christian forum. However, I'd have to agree with Winston, you must be here for the same reason.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She must be here for the reason she sited, and extrapolated the reason to others!
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Study every letter, upper, lower cases. Look at periods and commas. Look for meaning beyond what has been drummed into you.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That might make some peoples brains hurt..proceed with caution!
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christianajohanposted 12 years ago
How's the forum? I respect everyone atheist or not but let their be too much trouble here. We must have a discussion only not too much personally. This is the reason why we Christians must to. To explain to both believers and non-believers. God is giving His sunlight to good and evil. So calm down.

Jesus forgives even to His death. Jesus said we must follow Him. We must forgive if someone has stepped down our own philosophy in life and personal logic.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No thanks, I don't drink.
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mischeviousmeposted 12 years ago
http://youtu.be/bJVChTnVHtA
http://youtu.be/BZNB3iYw9fc
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MakinBaconposted 12 years ago
I guess atheists aren't too bright if you have to continually ask the question "why bother?" visiting Christian forums.

It seems the reason why you just have to make yourself feel good about your self-deception. Why don't you hang out with the non-believers and their forums? Is anyone stopping you?

You must simply feel a close connection to Christ if you always come back over and over again. Just give in and believe if you can't stay away.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Why don't you hang out with the non-believers and their forums?)
  
  MakinBacon,
  
  Again it seems a poster cannot or chooses not to read. The header at the top says this:
  
  All Forums
  Religion and Philosophy
  Atheism and Agnosticism
  Athiests, why bother visiting insane Christian forums?
  
  And, what was the reason you said you were here?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol.. you act like he stated this was the Christian forum..
  
  Notice he didn't say 'here'?
  
  He addressed the OP..
  
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He didn't understand the OP - as if you would get that, either.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think I'll let people see your error for themselves this time.
  
  Happy posting.
  
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getitriteposted 12 years ago
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19
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ib radmastersposted 12 years ago
does anyone know what is going on here.
I certainly didn't read these threads.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know tthis. Opposing sides makes the forum. A forum with only one opinion and everybody playing "yes man" is a forum not worth conducting. In short, forums are for debate, and you can't debate without opposition. If you don't want an opposition....go to church.
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wilmiers77posted 12 years ago
No devils!! Are you deaf and dumb?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  According to Jesus Christ, yes.. they unfortunately are bro.
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jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago
wilmiers77, the above is one way of looking at it, if one is a "believer." Can you accept that from the point of view of a non-"believer" the following explanation would be closer to the truth?

Catastrophes may be caused by natural phenomena or from human-generated influences. "Natural" would include, for example, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, floods, lightening. Human generated influences would include famine because people had been careless or lazy in preparing their crops; a landslide because building and construction work had not allowed for water flows and soil structure; wars and skirmishes which destroyed crop-growing areas.

In the "natural" cases, they are outside of human choice, except that in some cases we can use our intelligence to avoid the effects. The human influences are usually something we can make choices about, if we use intelligence and good communication with each other.

In neither case does one need to presume a "god" to be involved. Everything can be explained in terms of the laws of physics and/or the lack of human wisdom.

If each of us, christian and non-christian alike, can live with the different points of view, surely we can then get on with the important issues of life....such as preparing the fields for growing crops, or carefully planning construction sites.

Even if we were to accept your notion of "sin," there is far more worth in learning about our mental processes which make us steal, rape or murder, and learning discipline to prevent those crimes, than worrying about what the mythical "god" will do to us, the existence of which is infinitely debatable.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see how anyone can seriously suggest compromise to the fundamentalist, when people like Pat Robertson say things like this about the Dover School Board Intelligent Design trial:
  
  This is a blatant attempt to cause social change by appealing to fear - and it is disgusting.
  
  The fundamental message is one of bigotry, and bigotry should never be tolerated, accepted, or allowed any foothold in society.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
  
  What? Are you suggesting that we ignore a reality or even outlaw speaking of a reality. I thought you were a man of free thought and speech as you preached from your dead rock religion.
  
  This makes more sense: your dead rock church does led to death.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You make more witless, unsubstatiated claims than just about any other theist on hubpages.
  
  Tell us all what do you mean by "wisdom". We all need a completely unambiguous definition to know what you are saying. Once you have defined this key word, explain to us how fear will lead us to this formidable word: wisdom - and again, don't use supernatural explanations as all you are doing then is saying it is all because of Tinkerbell the Fairy.
  
  If you care about what you are saying, you have to be rational to avoid ridicule. Crying over and over, Yes, but I believe you will burn! is not a rational explanation.
  
  Next, explain to us all what you mean by reality, and then explain how your personal belief system is the equivalent of reality. I don't suggest we ignore reality - but if you want to talk about it we have to define reality and do so in unambiguous language that does not constitute a bunch of what ifs and maybes.
  
  One thing is certain: there are no what ifs or maybes in reality. Something either is or it is not.
  
  Your move - or have you checkmated yourself with claims of non-reality realities?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  FEAR is the very natural animal instinct which intervenes when something unusual presents itself. It is no less natural in us human animals. It is one of the fundamental factors which drive christians. And the churches use it ad infinitum in order to control the masses of people who are unable to think for them selves. A CHURCH is the Convenient Hierarchical Use of Religion for the Control of Humanity. They get you frightened so that you can confess and be controlled with promises.
  
  Fear itself is not the beginning of wisdom. The human intellect which allows us to work our way around, through or over the top of what is causing the fear.... that is the beginning of wisdom!
  
  In my opinion, when you fall back on the intangible "faith," you are copping out... being brain lazy, especially if you are in fact an intelligent person.
  
  Granted, a faith can be extremely valuable, critical in the lives of some individuals. I would not deny them that, I am in no place to do so. However, you can forget "miracles." You will wait through eternity if you expect a salvation for yourself. Pipe dreams. Like a lottery ticket. If you win, it's a statistical chance, nothing to do with someone high above treating you as special.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am sure you have jumped on a horse in the middle of the river. At the root cause of wisdom fear is the initial motivator to create antidotes; this is the resulting wisdom or the thereafter fear has established wisdom.
  
  Sugar coated crap taste the same after the coat.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Experience often separates, but it would be nice if your thoughts could permeate the masses, right? Unfortunately, God or the lack of a God is a big problem for many. Things would be simpler if we could just say that we are all apart of the universe (God) or that we are all atomically connected to the cosmos and be done with it, albeit that's not usually the case. People have problems and often look for something outside when everything you need is from within. Sort of like studying fractals, for example, as the pattern that follows from here and on down can also work in a reverse fashion. It never seems to end, really... But it is always something and never nothing, if that makes any sense to ya.
  Good luck preaching to these folks, although you'd probably be better off being a wise-ass like me, that way the respect given would at least be mutual between the two, atheist & theist. Agnostics are always excluded from this type of debate, of course, so pay attention to who you piss off; just saying...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I choose the Word of God. I can't satisfy all the people all the time, and most likely never. So, I preach the Word of God, and let the cards fall where they may.
  
  Jesus said that I bring a sword, a sharp two edged sword which is the Word of God. So, I expect opposition from some Christians, all atheist, and a few agnostics. I refuse to compromise the Word of God.
  
  When I write fiction I shall attempt to permeate the minds of the people plus sweeten, add spicy seasonings and plenty of sex. I agree with your advise in this case.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have eloquently prescribed resolve for the nonbelievers concerning catastrophes. This is not and never was my objective. My objective is one of faith. God can work with one faithful believer, but the multitudes of nonbelievers need millions of persons like you to avoid catastrophes. Why? It's the collective sin, the inundated acts of sin, among the people. Since I addressed sin, this would imply acts by men such as war, murders, and rapes.
  
  If no God, the universe and life forms would not exist. First cause can be ignored, but can not be denied in the conscience of man. Man has been exposed to the intelligent design of the universe and himself, and has learned from it. But, arrogantly claims all for self while denying God.
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Andme26posted 12 years ago
Because we are open minded we want to learn research then it turns out is just insane and we run away
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Here is a thought, which I happened to be thinking last night. The three main religions constitute approximately three billion people, and according to the last world census, there are three billion chinese. The worlds population is roughly six billion. So, in conclusion, half the world is religious and the other half is chinese.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought the world population is estimated to be close to 7 billion?
  Oh, great, that means we got 1 billion people that are unaccounted for? Well, I think some of those dwell in the forums here @ HubPages, no? LOL!
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Friendlywordposted 12 years ago
APATHY = DEATH

You have to speak up!

“It's horrifying that people feel this way, but it's certainly not shocking or new. Are we a little refreshed that some Americans are at least owning the real source of their opposition to the president?”

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/crazy-talk- … er-sticker
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Friendlywordposted 12 years ago
You have to speak up. Protect young people from this insanity and hate!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  oh wow.. Jesus Christ is hateful now..
  
  something went very wrong in your brain if that's the conclusion you have come to....
  
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
lotta other religions too. Probably is seven. The seventh billion used to be catholic choir boys.
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MrBouncebackposted 12 years ago
I don't understand how people have their own "special knowledge" about something. How can someone get an idea from something or someone else, but have different meanings. A lot of these religions are not religions I call them strategies. I'm a Christian and why is that people getting killed for being a Christian?.....
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because Christianity is ambiguous, dubious nonsense.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have not entertained the Word of God with an open heart. You have a predisposition of bias when it comes to the Word of God that makes you see only antichrist's view.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite and others like myself certainly are entertained by the Word of God. We laugh about its nonsense often. I especially like the part in the bible about the talking mule.
  
  However, I don't understand how musing about the silliness of the bible is in any way related to open heart surgery. You are correct that I have not been entertained by the word of god during open heart surgery. Hopefully, neither the anesthesiologist nor the surgeon are hearing disembodied voices during my surgery, either. More to the point, I hope I don't have open heart surgery to begin with.
  
  But, at least you are right about biases. We are indeed biased against irrational nonsense peddled as truth. Thanks for noticing.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those who don't believe don't necessarily have a closed heart. Their heart just didn't hear what yours did. I have read the Bible with an open heart, yet I bet my beliefs don't match yours in very many things. I have also read other religious texts with an open heart and often find things within them that also speak to my heart.
  
  Hearing/feeling/seeing something other than you doesn't make one under the sway of the anti-christ (a figure whom I don't happen to believe in btw) it just means our "heart" has led us elsewhere.
  
  And just a word of caution about statements like yours: Christ cautioned us against judging another master's servant. He also encouraged us to show humility and love unconditionally. I'm not sure how you can do that while accusing those with different views as being agents of the anti-Christ.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Firstly, I didn't tag any hearer as an agent of Antichrist. There is no neutral grounds as most people think between the Lord and satan. You are attracted to the Lord or satan or denying God and Jesus places you on whose side.
  
  Most all religious text has more in common than not. After all, humans have the very same design, same desires and needs. Our stage in life is basicly the same, planet called Earth.
  
  Btw, if a person reads the word of God, and blanketly deny all, who in hell side do you think they are on? Junior God? I think you should rethink what I commented more.
  
  God has judged antichrist's servants already. I am just repeating.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen
  
  &
  
  Well said
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And you, my friend, see only anti-Flying Spaghetti Monster views. Tell me, why don't you have an open heart when exposed to the word of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Why can't you rid yourself of this predisposed biased? Huh?!
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MrBouncebackposted 12 years ago
If the bible is what you say it is why when you are at your lowest point or luck is ran out you are looking for hope in Gods name? You cant say you havent, whether it slipped out or not, because everyone mentions God in a good way once in their life. Why are the ones who are in high positions are so foolish? If it wasnt for the fancy wording and expensive education you'll be just like me.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  MrBounceback,
  
  I'm not sure if this was addressed to me, but it is a reasonable question that has a simple answer - but first, we must deal with a fallacy in your question.
  The bible only has to do with about 2 billion people out of 9 billion on the planet - a lot of people who call out to god mean Allah or Jains or Mother Earth.
  
  Second, the reason is actually quite simple - hope. Hope is a childish emotion that a magical answer exists. The reason we call out is strictly based on psychological neediness. Calling out to a god in no way means there is a god, only that humans have a common need to quell fear with unreasonable hopes of the miraculous.
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MrBouncebackposted 12 years ago
In other words your telling me you could make things happen on your own or "bully" your way through life and make your own rules so things wont come back to bite you in your behind? Because, personally im not understanding.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  MrBounceback,
  
  No, I don't mean that at all. I mean that there is a difference between how things really are and how we would hope they might be. The difference is in chosing how one deals with life, whether we chose to base our worldview on what is real or whether we adopt the immature emotional-based wishful thinking that things can be as we want them to be. It is a matter of how mature our emotions are, and, no, I do not mean that in an insulting way. Some people lag behind in certain areas of emotional maturity, and that doesn't mean they are immature overall. It simply means that certain emotional areas have been stymied and have not been allowed to grow.
  
  Everyone goes through life making his own rules - and for most of us our #1 rule is to obey the rules society has set down. If we don't follow our rule, then we suffer consequences. But again, that is the reality of nature. There are actions and consequences for those actions, either positive or negative. We fumble our way through our life, trying to have more positive than negative reactions to our actions.
  
  Very difficult human problems are not resolved by holding belief in magical answers. Human problems can only be solved by humans. It was not the bible but persistent people who saw moral wrong about slavery that ended that disgusting practice - against the principles of accepting slavery within the bible.
  
  Had we looked only to magical answers in the bible, slavery would still be practiced in the U.S. and elsewhere.
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  MrBouncebackposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I respect a honest man and an honest answer. And yes, I definitely agree that we have to respect the rules society has set down. But, it is still a lot of stuff man made rules cannot answer. You say human problems can only be solved by human, I want you to elaborate on that more because if they crucified Jesus after all the miracle he performed, a person with little power could do what they want. We was going to overcome slavery anyway because the one thing they couldn't take from us was our mind and with our mind we became smarter and realized more things. Speaking on the presidential part, when a new president is in office they make new and different decisions. It is possible that what the last president have set could be forgotten, used as a cop out, or in favor of no change.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, MrBounceback,
  
  Here is my thinking on your replies:
  
  Yes, there are. These are known as intractable problems. Questions of morality, death, afterlives, and the like. Some of these problems cannot be answered: no human can possibly know - really know - what happens after death. But what happens with humans is we want to hope that death is not the end, so we create a story - a narrative - that explains how we won't really die. Belief in this story helps us deal with our fear of the unknown.
  
  But what is interesting is that mankind has always done this with difficult problems, i.e., we "found" a supernatural being who could "solve" the problem. The interesting thing is that this supernatural being always had the attributes of the particular people who "found" him. This "god" got angry, jealous, vengeful, just like the humans who "found" him, and when he showed himself he looked like a man, as well, talked like a man, and walked like a man - like the very men who discovered him. Gee, what a handy coincidence - he speaks the same language we do. God looks just like us. God believes the same things we do. Wow, are we lucky.
  
  Magic is not a method to solve problems. It is a trick, an illusion. Hope does not solve problems. The only thing can solve human problems is the actions of humans - praying for starving kids in Ethiopia does not produce a single ounce of food; however, picking corn, putting it in bushel baskets, carrying it on ships across the sea, delivering it to starving kids does help resolve their hunger.
  
  Not all problems can be solved. We never will know the answer to life after death. So why assume anyone does know?
  
  Jesus was crucified for rebellion against Roman rule. Whether he performed any miracles is not based on factual evidence but on stories - some would say myths. As to slavery, the point is that the bible has no single word in it that says slavery is immoral and should not be tolerated. The abolition of slavery did not come from religious thought but from human thought and secular actions.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religious thought is human thought.
  
  Yes, the Son of Man was tempted by all that you say, but he overcame, and have done it for millions, millions, and millions over the years.
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  MrBouncebackposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, Jesus was put to death for a man made rule. Before Jesus was born the word was to kill every young boy, but Mary fled town. If satin would of known that Jesus was coming he would of tried to stop it. For slavery, we wasn't getting any simpithy for believing in God. So, we had to use our survival methods to do what we have done. Then, ask God for forgiveness for what we have done and give God the praise because he allowed us to do that.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  MrBounceback,
  
  I would expect you to have a better understanding of scripture.
  
  This myth is told only in the book of Matthew. I say "myth" because there is no historical record anywhere of the massacre of children in and around Bethlehem at that time.
  
  The book of Luke says Mary and Joseph waited 8 days, then later returned to Nazareth - nothing about a murderous order to kill children.
  
  So which is truth? Matthew or Luke?
  
  Think about what you are saying. Humans acted on their own instincts to rid the world of slavery - god had no part in that decision. Then we are supposed to praise god because he didn't do anything and ask forgiveness because he was too lazy to outlaw slavery himself?
  
  That's dumb.
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  MrBouncebackposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I could go into scripture if I want. I am not a preacher, but i am giving you what i know without looking into the bible, but if you want to go scripture for scriptuer hear it is: The Gospel According to St Matthew says that King Herod ordered baby boys to be killed, for fear that one of them would grow up to usurp his throne. According to this Gospel, Jesus and his parents escaped to Egypt, returning only after Herod's death. because when Herod saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know. But you didn't answer the question. The gospel according to Luke gives an entirely different account of what happened after Jesus was born, and in Luke there is no mention of Herod ordering a massacre of children.
  
  So which gospel account is right - Matthew or Luke?
  
  There is also no record outside of the book of Matthew to support this claim. The Roman historians are absolutely quiet on the subject. In fact, without the one claim of this one book of the bible, a reasonable person reading about history would think this decree of Herod to eliminate children never really happened.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sh**t, people causes the problemS. You have said absolutely "NOTHING" to help emotional crisis; love hurt, lost of love ones; we are not machines. The intangibles help our enjoyment in like much more than the tangibles. You merely said ineffect to kill your emotions. The is the same as the low-down-no-good-dirty-devils would say to lead one away from the love of God!!! Come off it!!!
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wilmiers,
  
  If you cannot swim, stay out of the deep end of the pool.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tangibles are in the shallow part of the pool; intangibles are in the deep, heading toward infinite. Keep letting me know how much you really know. I love it!
  
  I came out the womb swimming.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You came out of the womb crying, and unless you are the small one in the picture, I'd say it's time you knocked it off.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really!! Dry behind your ears.
  
  My balls are returning to life.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It seems you aren't discussing nor debating any longer Winton.
  
  Perhaps your command to 'knock it off' is an indicator you are frustrated?
  
  I personally believe you have very little authority to speak on anyone swimming in the deep end. I don't believe you have ever stepped flipper in water above your waist...
  
  You tend to, as a matter of fact, stick to very old tactics which are regurgitated and vomited towards Christians and have also been used by people before you were born.
  
  I have read documentation of quotes that sound more like you than you sound like you, as every time I turn around you are parroting something else they have stated....
  
  Maybe reading your advice would help you establish which end of the 'pool' you in all reality are in.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is well to remember that attitudes against the abolition of slavery persisted in the southern states long after laws come in banning it. The people most against abolition were people who called themselves christian! And they were very skilled in finding biblical texts to support their opinions. Is this the case even today?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Any mean spirited person can find a scripture or two, and impose his over- exaggerated, selfish opinion, even satan who knows the bible better than all of us; but, never coming into the fullness of the knowledge of Christ Jesus. Satan can pervert the entire bible...steal,...imitate...
  
  Problem with you atheist is that you take what is good in a person for granted when in essence this is not reflected in the history of mankind. Fortunately, existing social machinery has pacified the beast with sufficient goods, and met other needs. I don't see innate, immutable good in any person at this time; there must be some persons continually upholding moral values that can not be touched by human hands or else!!!!
  
  We live in a fallen world (self evidenced), and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
  
  Faith in God has the capacity to sooth the beast's spirit.
  
  What was the people who fought against slavery standing on? They were standing on the Word of God. Contrary to what I have heard from you guy, Christians played the major role in stopping slavery. It's documented how Abe Lincoln stood on his Christian values when he made his final decision.
  
  You two fellows sound if you have never been the lone leader standing alone, but have only been part of a small popular group. AKA is still wet behind the ears. Jonnycomelately is a fish who live best in a sheltered environment.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Wilmiers,
  
  I'm tired of reading your gibberish and responding to your ridiculous claims of occult knowledge. Could you please direct me to the closest rock? I plan on painting Halleleujah, I believe! on its side and then setting the rock on my computer table and talking to it. At least that way I won't have to type so much.
  
  Thanks.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you're going to have your stone tablets soon. LOL!
  
  You know, getting a rock now is't a bad idea! LOLOL! I'm tired of typing also.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *facepalms* There's a problem with your argument. I'd point it out, but then I would be considered a tool for the anti-Christ.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dude should read a book... No wait, wouldn't want to spend the church's money on an education.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I don't think is stupidity or even lack of education... I think that when you hold a position so strongly that you won't acknowledge valid points from other positions you end up arguing things that make no sense.
  
  No side is ever completely wrong or completely right. When you start thinking that your opinion is flawless, you become the definition of a zealot. Then even YOUR valid points are ignored because you have poisoned the well.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Uneducated and stupid are 2 different ends of the spectrum... I've met some pretty educated idiots in my life and some geniuses that coulodn't read at all, basically, I never said stupid.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Remember your zen dear... I never said you called him stupid. I also realize the difference between stupid and uneducated... which is why I made the distinction.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see (bible learnin') as educational and any form of indoctrination, is an enslavement of the mind.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hello children!
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Facepalms are awesome; have you ever done a double facepalm 'image search' as they are even more funny?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Can we do a group facepalm Insane?
  
  Maybe we can make them more popular than they are.
  
  Or maybe... mayyybe.. We could do a video of it! LOL
  
  Oh dear.. As if it makes the oppsite party 'incorrect' all of a sudden..
  
  Dramaaaaaaaaaaaa . . . tization. heh heh heh
  
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tell me about this "satan." Is it some grotesque creature living in a Harry Potter type grotto, ready to pounce on any one of us who strays too close?
  
  Or is it a part you/me/each one of us, living within the human brain where greed and doubt comes from?
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Often referred to as the demons inside us. You know your own personal demons. Not a horned guy in the fires of hell.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fair enough. The spirit of satan lives in peoples minds. There is constant spiritual warfare within our minds. Quoting Steven King, "demons and monsters are real; they live inside of us." The world is inundated with persons who satan has the upper hand in this spiritual warfare, and causes them to commit atrocities. Selfishness, self centered, greed, jealousy, murderous, hatefulness and envy are some of the characteristics of satan.
  
  Good weather thinking is best and highly desired, but one must be prepared for storms in one's life. The steel from a strong faith in God is necessary. The individual is very fragile as compared to the adversities that can present themselves in the world.
  
  Faith in God can cease the storm, and lower the tides in spiritual war.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, you use the term "the spirit of satan." Is satan simply that? No substance outside of the human mind? Just a formless spirit, without a body that we can describe?
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...Such terms often equal the philosophy of life, and you know this...
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan is an angel created by God which by personal choice of 'free will' (which if God MADE Him be good he wouldn't have) got jealous and tried to take what was God's.
  
  He is still an angel, but one with evil intentions and evil is no different than destruction just like the mass murderer who finally turns the gun on himself. He is good for nothing but to destroy the good of others and himself ultimately for his short term pleasure. We call these kind demons which are the fallen angels who all do these destructive and selfish things. They are still angels but they are by personal choice perverted in their thoughts and every action. They are vile and hateful - just like a mass murderer who hates everyone so tries to take them all with him including innocent children..
  
  If you continue denying Christ Jesus you won't need a second hand description. God loves you and every living person, and wants to help. Christ will be taking His people very, very soon. His return is imminent.
  
  Very imminent.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Paradigmsearch peeks out the window...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm in a fourth floor walk up... Not even Jesus wants to climb my stairs. Guess I wait until the next big flood then he can walk on over and haul me out of the window.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you implying that a "great flood" has never occurred on planet Earth? Nah, surely not...
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I can understood you sensing a flood, but Jesus shall come from the heavens with a blast of the trumpet, and no direction shall be known to man from where Jesus came. He shall be all over All of us.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She doesn't read things she can't attept to slander easily..
  
  She also thinks God is a joke, which I hope changes. sincerely.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, is this "angel" just a metaphor? A figure of speech? Are you using it to describe something about yourself which you would like us to know about, Vector?
  
  It seems that you might have some very nasty demons hanging on inside of you, and you are looking in a mirror.
  
  I can't wait for the end of 2012, apparently some wonderful fireworks are due to happen in December. Let's you and me take a big bag of corn chips down there and watch. We might even be invited up on stage!
  
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "In zion (the essense of things, in the beginning of things) I have laid a stumbling stone and a rock of offense, and he who believe in Him shall not be disappointed."
  
  My brother in Christ, Vector, knows that rock, and appears by his works that we shall not be disappointed. God always honor His Word.
  
  I shall take a seat and watch the really big show of God.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We certainly shall not be disappointed brother. He will be here sooner than you think, and you will be with me and Him and our brothers and sisters soon in His Kingdom.
  
  If they wish to be headstrong and hold their own and pay their dues personally, Christ will graciously allow them to, along with their father the deceiver.
  
  Read Matthew 24 and keep it ever in your mind brother. He is preparing the way.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN. Thanks Brother Vector; I shall renew my mind with the scripture.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Demons don't speak of Christ with loyalty. They also would say anything BUT the truth that you have an oportunity for salvation.
  
  No, I'm not filled with anything evil. The Holy Spirit is what lives in me friend, and He loves you more than you will ever know.
  
  I don't speak of Hell to 'scare' as a person being told not to stand in the road doesn't have to be afraid to reason that it is wiser not to take the risk of getting plowed by a semi and allow themselves to become lunch meat...
  
  Demons mock people that love Jesus, because demons hate Jesus and all of His servants.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most Christians erroneously believe that the devil is a fallen angel created by God because of Genesis which is pagan based.
  
  I suspect you personally haven't born the brunt of Satan's wrath and evil else you would not just call him a fallen angel. Satan and God have always existed none being the creation of the other. No evil can exist in heaven thus they could not have been a rebellion. God would not create an imperfect being with the capacity to do evil. A best friend of God would never feel jealous of Him. Think of those who love God now. Are they jealous of His power?
  
  For argument's sake let's say he was a fallen angel and was jealous. We have all been jealous some time in our lives and have had evil intentions. However, that doesn't mean we could ever be like Satan. How can the best friend of God turn into a hideous being that demands human sacrifices, for example.
  
  Saying Satan is a fallen angel is diminishing his power and thus diminishing Jesus' conquering of evil. What's the big deal overcoming a jealous being? Satan is extremely powerful and without Jesus he'd be on par with God.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, Whilst I agree that the account of Satan being once some beautiful angel that through pride and a desire to take God's place, then 'fell', is not found in the bible, where do you get these other ideas from?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Everything in life has opposites like a magnet and an atom. There is duality in life and that means both Satan and God have a say in the affairs of the world. What cements this view of mine is just how incredibly powerful evil is. We aren't talking about some kicked-out-angel-from-heaven being. We are talking about a being who dominates human affairs and what happens in the world.
  
  As for the pagan texts, the Sumerian Tablets say the Annunaki descended from the sky to earth in their air crafts. "Descended from the sky" can be construed as "Fallen from heaven".
  
  View more:
  
  http://www.dimension1111.com/nibiru-the … ology.html
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok Claire, having read the article, I see no point in continuing our discussion any further.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
  Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  
  William Shakespeare, "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5
  Greatest English dramatist & poet (1564 - 1616)
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  Uninvited Writerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is talk that Shakespeare was a Catholic who had to hide his true religion for fear of punishment? Every one was expected to be the same religion as Queen Elizabeth. Another example of religious persecution.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And your point is?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan has never been on par with God. Satan was an angel created by God to have the task of praise in heaven. Satan began to want the heavens to worship him, and attempted during a rebellion, but God dispensed of him as fast as lightening falling to Earth. Satan no longer have supernatural powers; although, he has knowledge of the supernatural, and much more brain power than any human. We are no match for satan. He can not control us, but only temp and fool us attributed to wealth of knowledge.
  
  Jesus showed us that He had the power to overcome satan and satan's works. Satan was no match for Jesus, only people. Remember, while Jesus was embodied in the world He only used His supernatural powers selectively to establish the new covenant of love, blood bought, and redemption. As a result, Jesus did not even used His super powers to prevent His Crucifixion because His shedding of blood and death was needed for our redemption from sin. He bore our sins.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You gotta love it - Dueling Delusionists. Ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta.... Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum. Ta da da di da di da da.
  
  Who is on the guitar and who is on the banjo?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I must relieve my pressure on you, AKA. I am pushing you into the sublime.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I said without Jesus Satan would be on par with God. I have already addressed how that story doesn't make sense to Vector 7. No best friend of God could become what Satan is today. The problem here is that you and Vector 7 do not know Satan. You think he is some deranged spurned angel that just causes trouble. That is not so. He most certainly does have supernatural powers. How do you think he tempts us? How do you think demons possess people and make them levitate, for example? Through his brain power?
  
  Definition of the supernatural:
  
  : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
  2
  a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature
  b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
  
  If Satan just has brain power and is just jealous and does wicked things to the extent you know then Jesus' death and resurrection was not such a big deal? Bearing everyone's sin made Jesus as full of sin as a paedophile, for example. Know take on everyone's sin and that will make you descend into the pits of hell which happened to Jesus. To overcome the sin of the world and resurrect from the dead is the greatest triumph and act of love there ever was.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan on par if no Jesus!!?? Why would you say such a stupid thing?
  Satan has no supernatural power. Levitation can be brain power. Research farther of other humans doing just that. With faith without doubt, we are suppose to be able to raise the dead without any satan.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because both God and Satan are omniscient and omnipresent beings. I assume you can make yourself levitate just through brain power. I suppose demons who possess people just have brain power.
  
  So the definition of the supernatural is incorrect then? Please explain to me how Satan puts thoughts into our heads?
  
  Please post a video of you raising the dead.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong!!!
  
  Within time,my dear.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How on earth can the devil lead the whole world astray if he isn't omniscient and omnipresent? You clearly do not know Satan which is dangerous because one cannot know God without knowing Satan. You clearly have made up your own definition of the supernatural because no one else disputes that Satan is a supernatural entity.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really?!!! I'm stunned that these are actually your real thoughts. Now if you were talking about an episode of Harry Potter, this would make perfect sense.
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jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago
Typical reply. When are you going to realise that much of the biblical writings are metaphor. They are trying to describe the indescribable When you take so much of it literally, you will often miss the point and you come out with absolute non-sense. This is why so many people laugh at you. That must be a very lonely place for you. And please, don't come out now with more of the glib christian messages. I have heard them all before and they DO NOT RING TRUE!
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  MrBouncebackposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the biblical writings are metaphors can you please show me that you could do the things they talked about in the bible or in any belief of your sort? In fact, can you perform something that will be talked about 400 years from now? They just did a Red bull ad with Jesus walking on water, people believe that in making money, but not to save their own life's. That is crazy!!!!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People laughted at Jesus on the cross. Funny, no one knows any of those people; they appeared for second of cosmic time and than NOTHING.
  
  "It doesn't ring true in your ears?". Fellow, I believe you! Wow!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Go back to school, wilmiers77, learn to think and reason for yourself. Without a bible in front of you.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Think I'll listen to God instead of listen to you.
  
  I know His insight and teachings are far superior, considering He also made you.
  
  I believe wilmiers feels the same.
  
  Just as businesses don't run without management, neither does the universe or life.
  
  I believe your 'reasoning' is severely, severely flawed.
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Friendlywordposted 12 years ago
Maybe, Ateist are just young souls. Maybe, they just haven't lived long enough to have the wisdom old souls have.
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jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago
Sir, with respect, AKA Winston has given some good explanations about written in the bible, he has made a much better job of it than I can.

Concerning Metaphors..... There is a lot that goes on inside of us, like emotions, feelings, desires, and wanting to explain something which lifts or downs our spirit, which we find it difficult to describe in words.

For example, if I saw something really, really beautiful in the landscape, and wanted to describe to you my feelings, I might say: "Wow, it was so beautiful, so peaceful, my heart flew like a bird!" You would immediately get my meaning, because that is probably how you might feel, too.

It's a Metaphor. You know that neither I, nor my heart!, can fly, certainly not like a bird. But the description is sufficient to give my explanation of what I am experiencing.

Many stories of Jesus amount to just this sort of thing. When he said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven," he was not talking literally. I am sure you understand this. He was not saying NO rich man can get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Just that a rich man (or woman, of course in these modern days of emancipation) will be too focused on increasing and protecting his wealth. He/she will not have time or energy to attend to the more difficult needs of his/her neighbour. The Kingdom of Heaven is right now, if you are prepared to meditate on your inner desires and wants, then come out with much more knowledge of your self and how you fit into the world. A rich person CAN do this, if the business of money, wealth and power are put aside even just for a short time. Become aware of the God within. It is within your grasp. Within your ability. Within your life. Here and now.
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  MrBouncebackposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is easier for a camel ...To denote that a thing was impossible or exceedingly difficult. Camels are capable of carrying heavy burdens, will travel sometimes faster than the fleetest horse, and are provided with a stomach which they fill with water, by means of which I they can live four or five days without drink. This rather means one who loves his riches and makes an idol of them, or one who supremely desires to be rich. Mark 10:24 "How hard is it for them that trust in riches." While a man has this feeling - relying on his wealth alone - it is literally impossible that he should be a Christian; for religion is a love of God rather than the world. That they often produce luxury, dissipation, and vice. That it is difficult to obtain wealth without sin, without avarice, without covetousness, fraud, and oppression, 1 Timothy 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 6:17; James 5:1-5; Luke 12:16-21; Luke 16:19-31.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very, VERY well said.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you whole hearted concerning inner perspective. But, no God and Jesus would leave me without power to overcome adversities. If one examines himself, usually the results are one of conformity to outside pressures.
  
  Now, with fast communications and the lost of privacy, computers that store an immense amount of data which can quickly be retrieved and distributed, I can not afford all the adjustments of feelings viewing inner perspectives for a harmonious outlook on the world. I have been exposed to some public scrutiny, to much for me not to need Jesus, my Savior. I talk with God, not what's hot on my mind at the time. God always gives me an answer that is in my best interest. The others causes me stress that only God can resolve.
  
  I sorry jonnycomelately; things are just not that simple with me; maybe others. Faith in God is my life. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for."
  
  "Forgive them for they know what they do."
  
  I know that you mean well for me, and I liked you as soon as I saw your picture; you appear to be a humble and wise man.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is the most honest thing that you have stated since coming to the forums. Now it is clear that you are not capable of defeating your psychosis. Of course you are going to see it differently, as you are no longer capable of discerning reality.
  
  In my opinion, I think your degree of the God delusion warrants treatment.
  No offense.
  Peace
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Remember now, that particular statement is coming from a psychotic, delusional hypnotic...
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Such stellar intellect as this should be commended. By making such a simple statement, you have put a new spin on the childish cliché of "I know you are but what am I"
  Absolutely brilliant!! Not everyone can do this.
  
  If I could just touch the hem of your garment, maybe I could abdicate my my mind as well, and start hating this @$#%%#@ science too.
  
  That evil science just sucks. Doesn"t it?
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  [+1]
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your numerous emoticans dictate such delusions of laughter and thoughts, or the lack thereof...
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mocking Christ is hateful and sickens me personally.
  
  I see what the military taught you, and I know others from the military who will verify it.
  
  We also see that you have mastered the copy and paste functions.
  
  A more profitable use might serve you better and also wouldn't look like you made a coloring book out of your post.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I think he's just mocking you.
  
  So no harm no foul.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that so. Well jump in the boat with him there superwoman.
  
  I'd love to hear your application of the quote you used there to the current situation.
  
  This should be breathtaking...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually it wasn't you, but Insane Mundane... still it is the same concept.
  
  He can't mock Christ because he doesn't believe in him. He can mock the veracity of belief in an idea that to him seems absolutely nuts.
  
  And he knows someone like you is going to go all buggy on him because they can't tell the difference. He wins when he gets you go loopy on him because it proves that you are zealotous in your beliefs. Irrational, illogical, and prone to behavior that can be likened to the bloody foaming at the mouth of the berserkers of legend.
  
  Plus he likes messing with you... mainly because your response is so predictable that it is comical. Think Daffy Duck temper-tantrum.
  
  And please, if you are going to go sarcastic on me do it with a bit more finesse than your average 8 year old playground confrontation. I'm not mocking you after all, he is. To me you are doing quite a good enough job mocking yourself... no need for me to jump in.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I don't need to say a word..
  
  Thank you kindly for your attempt.
  
  You may continue if you so desire, and without further interuption as well...
  
  lol......
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, vector7, you have certainly shown your true colours today. Stick-in-the-mud, head-in-the-sand, bigoted attitude, grasping at opportunities for argument, lack of real intelligence, defensive and Cloud Nine occupant......
  
  How you can expect me, or anyone else, from now on to be courteous and respectful of your opinions, I do not know. I have tried to be respectful and patient with you and draw you out on a genuine disussion, but your mind is closed to genuine discussion, so I will have to say good luck, if your mind can accept such ungodly imaginations.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm being stubborn, and nothing more.
  
  I find you get rather touchy when I debate assertively, and tend to push all kinds of ugly descriptions on my character.
  
  If I am such, why not let them view the posts themselves?
  
  Why all the ugly comments back to back in sequential order?
  
  Are you looking for a punching bag?
  
  I've grown tired of reading your ill-manored posts toward others which I respect and I have said nothing ugly but have been intense in my discussion.
  
  Would you like to quote me sir and point out where I might need to apologise..
  
  I am often moved to be kind, but then again I get quite aggravated by accusations without a single quote.
  
  And why do you people play musical chairs as if you cannot hold claim to your own discussion topics and clutter the thread where the debates are actually taking place to interject some selfish notion you percieve about me?
  
  Not here rather, but even here you seem to overlook how rude others are and pinpoint me. Would you like me to post the things I'm mentioning and address them individually as to clear the air on whom is being what to whom???
  
  Please, I am very willing to do the work today as you have noted in such an unkind manor...
  
  Do tell. Should I collect the evidence?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Johncomelately is one of the most courteous people in the forum, and you are accusing him while making sarcastic, disrespectful, sometimes insulting and mostly childish comments yourself. If there is anybody worse than you in insulting others. it is another Hubber who identify himself with his disease, insane.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WTF are you talking about here?
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, and you're a mock-heroic being that flanks the forum dwellers with all-knowing poppycock? LOL!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OooooH! You pushed a button there Melissa!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.
  
  BTW, I'll mock your silly God any time I feel like it. It's not my fault that you see value in nonsense.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Mocking God's Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin."
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who need your forgiveness?
  All spirits can go to hell as far as I'm concerned!Non existing God's immaterial spirits. Is this, the divine comedy?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK, "Let her roll." to outcome!
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey there, Wilmiers77...
  
  Have you ever wondered if some of these people even appreciate the (often polluted) air that they breathe? Yet, while ignoring the mystery of life they often speak about humanity along with the universe itself, as if it's a mechanical, robotic process without feelings or any meaning, all while claiming that many of us are deluded and delusional for believing in something and/or finding reason. WTF? Does that make any sense? Ahh, why even bother..? To each their own, as they say...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not exactly true... Knowing how something came to be or knowing why something exists doe not lessen the beauty of it by one iota.
  
  I know exactly how Monet painted his works, doesn't mean I'm not in awe of their beauty. I know exactly how babies are made... doesn't mean I don't think of them as anything less than every day miracles.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've never met anyone before that knew exactly how something came to be or knew why something existed. You know what 'verbs' are, but that wasn't what I meant; if ya notice, I also mentioned the universe in that statement, as well...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, pretty sure I know how exactly how babies come to be. No religion needed there. I also know why they exist also no religion needed.
  
  Oh, the universe. Would it surprise you to know that there are people out there that do not give a damn where it came from? But that's beside the point.
  
  The universe is mechanical, it operates within a set of fairly predictable parameters. Doesn't make it any less beautiful to know what those parameters are.
  
  You are being silly by assuming that those who don't believe in some mystical explanation are unfeeling or unappreciative of beauty. As a matter of fact, the mathematicians and hard scientists are often MOST impressed by the beauty and wonder of the natural world and/or universe. They marvel at the order that often springs from what seems to be chaos. I had a friend that was so stunned by natural symmetry that he actually cried while describing it. He needed no religion or God to be moved emotionally.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I get it; religion upsets you...
  Being off-topic somehow justifies your statement?
  Your first claim represents the "Which came first? The Chicken or the egg?" baloney.
  The most honest thing you said for yourself in your last reply was: "Oh, the universe. Would it surprise you to know that there are people out there that do not give a damn where it came from? But that's beside the point."
  Uh, duh?
  Many of y'all don't think about very much outside of yourself yet you say in the same string of words: "As a matter of fact, the mathematicians and hard scientists are often MOST impressed by the beauty and wonder of the natural world and/or universe. They marvel at the order that often springs from what seems to be chaos. I had a friend that was so stunned by natural symmetry that he actually cried while describing it."
  
  The universe is mechanical? Really? Well, get that universe-creating machine up and running then! You could make billions! LOL! ...And you insult me by saying I'm silly...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, religion doesn't upset me. I'm religious myself. Nice assumption though that all religious people think like you or see things your way.
  
  My first claim represents that I know where babies come from. I'm sorry if you don't. I'm sure that you could look it up if you like. Chicken or egg was created in your mind and really has nothing to do with human reproduction... if it does to you then you are doing it wrong.
  
  I'm extremely honest hon, but if you want to believe I am lying about something because it doesn't fit what you think then have at it. Whatever helps you sleep at night. If you could clear up what I might be lying about though, that would be peachy.
  
  The universe is extremely mechanical and largely predictable. Maybe you had some questions as to how things worked that you might want to ask. It might clear up your confusion on whether gravity holds things down or whether it is fairies holding onto our ankles. Or whether stars die because they run out of fuel or are eaten by angry dragons. You know, things that could only be explained and appreciated by those who believe in God.
  
  And if you think silly is an insult than you really wouldn't want an honest opinion on your posts.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If religion doesn't upset you, then why do you bring it up so often in the way that you do?
  Even in your last comment, there you go, talking about fairies, dragons, and Gods...
  
  You are providing shallow thoughts, and yes, you totally represent the chicken or the egg conundrum with your "I know where babies and/or human life comes from" claim.
  
  Yeah, sex is really good, but since this isn't a porn forum I'm not going to go into that, albeit your statements about babies still doesn't relate.
  
  Oh, dear... No, I really don't think that the term 'silly' is very insulting, but it seems that if I barely say anything on here I get banned. Yet, the more respectful I TRY to be, the more I notice others doing the opposite. What is this? A Day Care Center?
  
  No, the universe is not mechanical nor the life within it? If it is, you can surely create a few universes with communicating-life inside of it, right..?
  
  Who brought up lying? I spoke about the 'most' honest thing you said. You can ignore stuff without lying... Oh, now you say you are religious and brought up assumptions while making your own. Maybe you need to edit some of your verbiage because I'm having trouble following such scrambled messages...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1. Actually, I didn't bring up religion... you did. I was just walking through and decided to address your atheists are without feeling line. Religion doesn't bother me but your statement did... sort of... enough to relieve my boredom for a minute or two anyway.
  
  2. I still don't get what you mean by chicken or egg. I existed then my kids did. No chicken involved. The eggs were mine though and they existed before my kids. Still not seeing a conundrum.
  
  3. When you say that something is the "most honest" you are implying that something I said was dishonest. Dishonest means lying.
  
  4. If you see pron in a conversation about the universe, children, and -somehow- a chicken then please continue to read whatever religious texts you can get your hands on. Really, constantly.
  
  5. I'm not sure your difficulty understanding is coming from my verbiage.
  
  6. I cannot make a universe... which is fine since it continuously makes and remakes itself all on it's own. No outside help needed. As far as the life within it... I've made 4 of those beings so far... working on another couple as we speak. As far as I can tell it was just me and hubby... once again no outside help needed.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How did I bring up religion? Now, I know that is a lie. There are several organized religions out there and many that ain't organized, but people who believe in something or try to find meaning and/or understand the endless aspects of life, is by no way a "religion" as you speak about.
  
  I like how you got all numerical in your last reply; ahh, well, at least you're being cute about it now...
  
  I really don't know why you don't understand what I mean about the chicken & egg conundrum, but I'm trying to stay off the sex subject on here or I will definitely get banned yet again, except this time it will be for being perverted as opposed to the typical profane gestures...
  
  No, you can pretend to ignore something while still "technically" being honest in what you say... That's why I said 'most' honest when you said that other; oh, forget it...
  
  #4 lost me... I'll have to check back on that one; not sure what ya meant.
  
  Misunderstanding and misconceptions are human nature, that much I'll agree on.
  
  #6 - Well, I see that you don't understand what I mean either. I think it goes back to your #5 statement, except this time it should be used upon yourself.
  
  In closure: This forum blows; I think I'm going to go back to promoting adult entertainment via porno portals; making $35 dollars per membership ain't bad... Then again, there is always that freelance writing stuff that barely pays the bills... Ha!
  
  In all seriousness, religious debates are futile!
  By the way, how many kids do ya want to have???
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mundane,
  
  I heard exactly what you are saying! Frustrating to me.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's ill-intentioned humans we really need to watch out for. No "god" is needed, except to give those nasty people courage in their evil pursuits.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have it twisted. Godless men do evil deed without remorse. Christians work to stop Godless men from doing evil things to people, but not all so-called Christians are really good. A few chosen Ones are like Saints. I am in between. LOL!
  
  Can atheist be their brother keeper? I say no because each atheist is self centered and usually selfish. Therefore, their brothers have no reason to not take his goods, harm, or kill the atheist.
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  scottcgruberposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that why rates of murder and other violent crimes are highest in states and countries with the greatest percentage of Christians and lowest in places where secularism and atheism are more prominent? Or why rates of domestic violence and divorce are lower among atheists and agnostics than religious people? Or why atheists and agnostics are better-educated and less likely to be racist or ethnocentric?
  
  The facts do not support your "immoral atheist" assertion. In fact, they support the opposite.
  
  http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-h … d-religion
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fellow, your are putting nonbelievers on the religion train. Kick them off, and the statistics shall reverse. Remember, only a small percentage of Americans are born again Christians, the remaining are inspiring to be. But even at that, it's your atheist and agnostics who are committing the crimes. America is now in a mess, drugs, murders, rapes in which Jesus has nothing to do with such, and neither is 99% of His followers...there is always a Judas.
  
  Your facts are twisted when you say that rates are higher among religious people for committing above crimes, that is the lie of the devil. I call you before God even before I research my sources. Your devils are claiming to be Christians. Get out of here!
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Alice: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
  Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
  Alice: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A late qualifier is very legite.
  
  Alice: All true Scotsmen enjoy Haggis.
  Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
  Alice: Your uncle is not a true Scotsmen.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was recently pointed out to me -- literal moments ago, in another forum -- that the analogy illustrating the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is broken.
  
  After I've mended the analogy and renamed the fallacy, I'll consider your comment.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  During the early part of the twentieth century, in some southern communities, the faithful Christians would meet AFTER CHURCH, to lynch a negro, who, in many instances, was innocent of the accusations leveled against him.
  
  These people considered themselves good Christians...doing the Lords work. Who are you to assert who a real Christian is? The truth is these people would be defined as Christian...just like you.
  
  And, btw, who are you to define who is a devil? I bet some people, even in your congregation, think that you are a devil.
  
  Accept the blame. Your religion is evil. Period.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus taught against lynching any one. Those certain so-called Christians were acting under the influence of you guys which was not the Spirit of Christ Jesus. The two spirits are as different as night and day.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your facts are deceptive. They are not true when scrutinized even slightly.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If this is true, then it should be trivial for you to rebut them.
  
  Here is the link from which these trivial deceptions are derived:
  
  http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty … theism.pdf
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because you are publicly professing them.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am surrounded by atheists that contribute their money and time (on average 10 hours a week volunteer rate) to charitable causes. Not churches or political causes but actual get out and help people causes.
  
  They don't need a holy book to tell them that feeding hungry people is right and that murder is wrong. I'm sorry if you think that Christians would be evil without their religion. I actually find it quite scary to be in a country full of people that will turn into horrible monsters if their faith wavers. Good thing they wouldn't. Apparently only people that think like you would...
  
  *shudders*
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lost lady, who told you that Christians would be crimals without the Holy Book?
  
  Devil, get out of here!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In the name of the illegitimate son of god, I command you lady devil, don't threaten me with reason, I want to be fooled by priests!
  Don't be curt Wilmiers, elaborate.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was speaking to the devil.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She didn't say that,"Christians would be criminals without the Holy Book," but that, "Apparently only people that think like you would."
  
  In other words, she was referring only to that subset of Christians who are wilmiers77-like.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am a Christian.
  All Christians have the same fundamental belief.
  Therefore, I have the fundamental belief.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay... just to clear things up... I'm a lost lady AND the devil?
  
  That's bloody awesome! I'm going to Vegas!
  
  I actually said that you were full of it and Christians would be whoever they basically are with or without religion. You are the one that said we were all base animals that needed constant bible thumping to not be barbarians. I disagreed.
  
  Since you feel that way, I have to assume that you are speaking from personal viewpoint. That actually really is pretty frightening. I really hope that your faith never waivers because if you have that thought process then no one is safe if you have a moment of doubt.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your are lost relative to a personal relationship with God.
  
  You are reading thoughts that are not mine.
  
  I spoke to your devil to leave you alone.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You should speak to psychiatrist, especially if you're talking to gods and devils.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are echoing your own mind that might need professional help; I have a rock foundation that is unmovable, and I'm building on it.
  
  Actually, your inner conscientious is trying to help you also. A professional in tandem with your conscientious helping you shall bring great results.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What the hell are you babbling on about?
  
  Alot of big words, for something that could be said with few.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  wilmiers77, you should not interfere in Melissa's relationship with one of her devils.... they might be very good friends!
  
  Now, in numerous of your posts it has been clear that there is no way that you will move from your fanatical stance in the religion of christianity. You might think that this has a positive and beneficial effect on our world. Well, I can tell you that it will always have a very negative effect!
  
  Your intransigence is the problem. You are rigid, unbending, accepting nothing of other points of view. You have your set beliefs and that is where you stop your brain from working. You seem to be unaware of the beautiful richness and diversity of this world. You close your ears to other opinions and seem to lack the grace or intelligence to open up, think beyond the square.
  
  So, if you want to do some good in the world, sort yourself out. As someone has already suggested, you might be in need of some professional help!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *Grins* The only devil I have pestering me at this moment has curly blond hair. She just wants a story and some cuddle time, so I'm okay with it.
  
  Besides, since I am the Devil (according to him) then he praying for my devils to go away just drives away my minions... whom I'm kinda fond of.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have help from the supernatural realm; the only thing that you and your secular professionals can do for me is place burdens on me.
  
  You are liken unto a butterfly, gently flying around. I would invite you into my house and sup with you only when the exterior and beyond is at peace, and is no threat to me. As a matter of fact, when I am on R & R it would be time for you and your.
  
  I had my search for the truth lasting for years; so, when I hear your premature peace philosophy which recognizes no threats beyond your front door, I quickly recognized that my faith in God is liken unto a rock, and it has the answers while all others fall short. After all, Christians have secular education and experiences in the same world, and is quite aware what you are selling. I ask you if UCLA is secular enough for you. If you were permitted to examine my transcript, than you would see that I majored in physics (was inducted into the national physics honor society), and took electives of psyche 101 (study of group behavior), anthropology 101 (the study of cultures, why they developed the way they did, why members think the way that they do.), and sociology 101 (modern theories from the era of people migrating from farms to the cities unto present in the U.S.).
  
  You accused me of being narrow minded; I assure by my track record that could never be so wrong; qualifying track record,I am also referring to on the streets and on the jobs and a war veteran. I challenge you and all the atheist on hubpages with my experiences. When really and deeply challenged I show my steel; otherwise, I am a liberal person, and listens to others. Don't blame me for knowing better when seeing your short comings. GET REAL!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And with that, I will now retire from the conversation with a crystal clear understanding of the situation.
  
  The first atheist that jumps religion based on the above statement, however, is going to be called out for being an obvious opportunist.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One must know what the other person is talking about and why before criticizing. Try it; you might like it.
  
  So long, lost lady, may you float to shore at some blessed location somewhere in the world.
  
  I am just getting started preaching the Word of God!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you truly have all this exposure to these different disciplines, it is shocking that your worldview is at the level of abject ignorance that it is.
  
  It appears that you are either being disingenuous, or that you truly do suffer from some severe emotional/psychological distress.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is not shocking considering he has delusions and hallucinations(like seeing and hearing gods and devil).
  I had difficulty accepting there were undetected schizophrenics in our society, now it is plain. Now I think the best way to detect delusion is to give them a computer with internet and show them the religious forum.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are totally blind to the all encompassing truth.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So how is it that you have acquired all of this mind expanding education, yet your worldview is still that of the dirt scratching savages from the Stone Age?
  
  It appears that your claims of higher education are EXTREMELY doubtful. In other words, why don't you be honest and tell the truth...but that is probably impossible for you at this point, as your delusion seems to have made it impossible for you to discern the truth.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey genius,
  
  When searching for the universal truth one must reduce many questions and potential answers to the universal truth (Ideal), and not claim to be universal if one have fragmented parts, attempting to pass off as the universal truth. The one ideal. In other words, one must go thru assessing facts, postulates, theories, and eliminating all other quest for knowledge because it might take more than a life time to examine and evaluate, than reduce to one universal truth. If there is an antithesis of your universal truth, than it is not the universal truth until you prove the antithesis wrong.
  
  I then justify my universal truth to all.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wilmiers,
  
  It is obvious you have no solid definition of the word: truth. But, don't feel alone as the definition of this simple word has been debated for centuries and we are still going on about it.
  
  One thing is clear: to be consistent and totally unambiguous, a straightforward definition can be used and that is that truth is the logical necessity of a valid argument. In this sense, truth is always the result of a proof, i.e., the conditions set forth within the system of logic used. By this same standard, though, the conclusion is only applicable within the system of logic and does not necessarily transfer to reality.
  
  By this same sense, there can be no universal or absolute truth as there is no universal or absolute standard of logic, classical versus fuzzy being an example.
  
  Your universal truth boils down to your opinion only. The more persistent you are in a claim of its absolute nature, the more ignorant and ridiculous you sound.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have found the Truth. All of my extensive education was to give me a mosaic picture of the truth; to give me an opportunity to recognize and appreciate the truth.
  
  If your universal truth is a collection of fragmented parts coming from education and experiences, than you have not really found the universal truth.
  
  I sought; I found; I dropped all of my incompletes (repentance); I accepted the universal truth (Ideal).
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. You are experiencing a severe psychotic episode.
  
  Yet all you speak of is LIES! Even claiming that you have advanced education seems highly improbable. I don't think anyone here believes that BS.
  
  Your universal truth is nonsense. You have found nothing but a psychotic disorder.
  
  In other words, you have abdicated your mind.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you honestly believe that he has a psychiatric disorder, then you are -in essence- arguing with a very ill man without the capacity to defend himself rationally. Since I'm sure that you know if one is truly delusional then there is nothing you can say to shatter those delusions, then you either don't believe he is delusional or you are trying to show your superiority by bullying the mentally ill.
  
  So you are either personally attacking someone with something you know are lies or you are showing extreme opportunistic cruelty to someone who is sick. Either way, you aren't doing much to disprove his "atheists are evil" claim.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Moron #2, listen up!
  
  You have just revealed that you don't know much about what you are professing. I reduced myself to discourse that applied to the secular world from my secular education Where in hell did I refer to God?
  
  Just as I anticipated, you two morons jumped into the plot. IT'S ALL FROM SECULAR, HIGHER EDUCATION TEACHING, YOU IDIOTS!!!!!!
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You just called someone a moron who was defending you, Mr. Myers.
  
  You do realize that, right?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for your opinion.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have just revealed that you don't know much about what you are professing. I reduced myself to discourse that applied to the secular world from my secular education Where in hell did I refer to God?
  
  Just as I anticipated, you two morons jumped into the plot. IT'S ALL FROM SECULAR, HIGHER EDUCATION TEACHING, YOU IDIOTS!!!!!!
  
  I have proved my point. I am done here.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All you mostly talk about is mental problems, yet you show more than most people here; get help, soon!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the Christians should kill, stone or burn all atheists to prevent this people from doing bad things!
  
  Funny how these religious people project their lack of morals to others!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lack of morals? From where do you think morals come?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have a theory on that... It involves natural selection and the behavior of herd animals. You see in herd animals the good of the group is paramount because it means survival of the individuals. Humans are pack animals.
  
  Humans have evolved to the point that we have largely because of our ability to adapt to changing conditions not only as individuals but as a group. Empathy and sympathy... which are essentially the grounds that "morals" are based upon developed because both were necessary for the survival of the herd.
  
  Or God did it. You know, whatever.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have jumped on a beautiful horse in the middle of the river. You have not gone to first cause, and explained from that position unto the present.
  
  But, I do like your herd simile.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your gods morals
  Kill all heathens including there animals,
  Keep slaves
  Kill all those who disobey Sabbath
  Females are inferior,
  Kill all adulterers except god
  And to top it
  Impregnating another man's betrothed.
  All morals came from men, the necessity of being a society. There are societies who practiced cannibalism, and there are societies who don't even kill(without your god)!!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're challenging God's providence. You are saying that God made the wrong decides when in essense God is an absolute Who knows All perfectly.
  
  The Ten Commandments for starters!
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wilmiers,
  
  Do you even know what morality means? Can you explain to me the morality about the commandement: thou shalt have no other god before me or honor the sabbath day and keep it holy?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Moral codes. Why waste my time trying to explain to you when you only deny God. It's hopeless when a person deny a Designer after learning how precisely ordered the universe is and how intricately our bodies are designed. It's completely dumbfounding.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  An intricately designed body.
  Source: wikipedia
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sixth Commandment for starters : "You shall not commit adultery."
  9th "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife"
  
  So if I make my neighbor's betrothed pregnant(and I won't marry her), is it adultery?
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For starters, there are two set of ten commandments. Try looking them up.
  
  Secondly, the Bible is considered divinely inspired. Whether it be by holy spirit or God, either way, it promotes a lot of hate and bigotry. You can accept that or not, either way, it still does. The faith of the Christian however is not in the old testament. It is in the New Testament.
  
  I will lean towards Christianity when I see Christians that are actually trying to follow in Jesus's footsteps instead of grabbing what is convenient for them at the time from the bible. So far the only one's that come close are the one's who take it spiritually instead of literally. Unfortunately though, even they tend to fall increasingly short.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Moron,
  
  What if their are 12 sets of the Ten Commandment. We believe one that is clearly written in the bible.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I love having insults hurled at me. I like knowing that I struck a nerve. It means that your actually listening.
  
  YOU claim to only believe one, one that has been incorrectly translated. You only need to look at this: http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/ten … tions.html to know that there are too many translations for any of them to be absolute. Perhaps when the group of scholars finishes re-translating everything to it's actual meaning there won't be so many discrepancies.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Watch out for Valdemort and the devils in dark hoods!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not conscience of those guys. LOL!
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are speaking as a dead man.
  
  "It's a fool that says in his heart that here is no God."
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, won't you please go and pray for the poor, godless, atheists.
  
  Don't, you know, actually do anything for the impoverished, enslaved or uneducated.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pay no attention to his/her claims as they beckon for disagreement; a troll, if ya will...
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just by looking at the few, terribly written, illogical hubs that the above young fellow has written, and the fact that he's been here for 3 months, you will see that it is certainly not me who is the troll
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you very much, for the promotion! ...My traffic just jumped; thanks, hun...
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  Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're welcome! For the views and the extra negative feedback you'll get, but the latter is not solely my doing, some credit has to be given to you!
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In all seriousness, as much of an arse as you try to represent, come on down and "actually" visit my hubs and give back some honest feedback. Surely, we can agree on something..?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There you go with your insane, childish, and unsubstantiated insults.
  
  Try proving, what you just said, to be true.
  
  It appears that it is your foolish god that is the fool in this reality.
  Omnipotent yet weak, omniscient yet ignorant of the very reality that He supposedly created, Ubiquitous yet can't find things. Now where is your proof that I got this wrong?
  
  I stand by my original statement. You are no longer capable of discerning reality, as your insane religion has been debunked repeatedly, yet you have the audacity to continue arguing, and with not an ounce of integrity left.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is actually a truly sad state of affairs, as without the delusion the ego collapses. That is the basis for the huge amount of defensiveness and inability to reason - if done, there is no one left.
  
  Fortunately, one does not physically die when the ego is shattered, and only with the death of this pseud-ego are we capable of forming our own normal, human ego. Then finally, we do not have to live vicariously through a god, but can live our own life by ourselves and for ourselves.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If a moron speaks out loud, should the degenerates listen from afar?
  You preach to your own choir, and so on... Blah!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol, your analogies are so blatent and obvious one can't deny they're true..
  
  I die laughing at how silly the perceptions they stated look after your posts sometimes... LOL
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you can live your own life. It's called freedom of choice. But! God said, "It's a fool that says in his heart that there is no God." No fool is going to change it. God said it; I didn't.
  
  For a fool to call me delusional because I believe in God and the Word of God, and the Living Word of God is going into the sublime.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you hearing voices now, too, or do you simply believe what you were told about something that was written by humans?
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have not a hint concerning this spiritual matter; therefore, I must over look you; although, you are cute. LOLOLOL!!!!!!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Written by humans?
  
  If a book accurately predicts 3,500 prophecies you still claim, and try to keep your integrity here mind you, that 'humans' predicted those events?
  
  You should do some studying with that nonsense..
  
  God does not play dice was a comment made by Albert Einstein,
  
  what exactly do you think he meant Mr. Winston?? I suppose you would like
  
  to enlighten us on how foolish Einstein was now and how tiny his brain is
  
  compared to your genious insights???
  
  By the way, I know his stance which, might I add is irrelevant and also
  
  misrepresented often. The meaning of the quote and the conclusion on the
  
  prophecies will suffice if you have a method of explanation.
  
  PS: Please don't drag on, and please don't attempt to tell me some nonsense such as coincidence. If you do I will graciously direct onlookers to the mathmatical equations for validation of such a notion being a massive error.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Vector,
  
  If a book did this, I would most certainly give it its due. But the book you reference doesn't accomplish this feat. First off, it's not even a single book but a compilation of 66 books.
  
  The prophecies within these pages are for the most part quite unspecific and the few that are specific have evidence against them that suggests they were written after the fact - Isaiah especially shows these tendencies.
  
  It is not particularly difficult to write a narrative hundreds of years after the fact that appears to fulfilll a nonspecific future claim, especially when you have a copy of the older book.
  
  This, of course, is how a real person becomes a legendary person. I am pretty confident there was a real Jewish rabbi named Jesus. I am equally confident that the stories about him in the bible are legends.
  
  And finally, yes, the 66 books of the bible were all written by humans. An immaterial spirit doesn't even have a finger, so how can it write, much less hold a pencil or type.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One - You completely ignored the two points I asked you to address. No clue? I'll just assume that's the case as you blunder about anyway.
  
  Two - You are pathetically attempting something which you are as ignorant of as you are bold. There are prophecies not even secularist scholars will deny because if they did they would look like fools, as I won't direct attention to anyone in particular, but readers may suppose.
  
  Three - The Messiah was written and known about LONG before He ever appeared, and many of the fullfilments are so specific it is unquestionable, yet of course your 'everyone who writes on parchment with feathers even greek secular record keepers are liars' makes all of them what? Deemed erased from history by you?? Please step down from the horse and and give it back to the cowboy.... You don't 'deem' everyone a liar by personal opinion.
  
  Four - If you UNDERSTOOD the texts which you are discussing you may have a minute fraction of insight regarding them, but you jump off the deep end denying things that brilliant minds have recognised and held as certainty for hundreds upon hundreds of years. And now you come along and the entire populace which proceeds you are delusional.. what a statement.. bravo there captain logic.
  
  Finally - If anyone here that has ANY intelligence beyond that of the common housefly does honest research from the vast www, they will see the OBVIOUS predictions of the Bible, and I will also be posting a link soon on my profile to the numerical odds of said predictions as calculated repeatedly by brilliant mathematicians.
  
  If you would like to either [1] address the points I spoke of now as to clear my assumption for lack of your attendance, or [2] continue with mindless denial of well established facts I will be glad to make a rather overwhelmingly hard to deny post to accompany your assertions. They are quite bothersome and I'm sure many hubbers here would like to see the facts of which I'm claiming. So, if you will?..
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Provide a few examples of these incontrovertible prophecies, please.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you're genuinely interested in truth, this is a good starting point.
  
  I'll be hopefully releasing a full hub on the subject soon.
  
  And it's 2,500 not 3,500 for the accurate scholar count. I mixed the Dakes Bible vs. Scholar accounts by mistake above.
  
  http://www.reasons.org/articles/fulfill … -the-bible
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll be waiting for the hub.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not me. I'll be waiting for the retraction.
  
  The Septuagint translation:
  
  And if you don't like the Septuagint, maybe you like these better:
  
  It's not a village but a clan that Micah wrote about. It wasn't a reference to the messiah but to a leader who would be come from the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah,a person not a village. Unless it is the village idiot. So much for inerrancy.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let's assume for a moment that this prophecy means exactly what believers claim that it does.
  
  If Matthew were 100% accurate in his translation -- if he interpreted Micah correctly, and the NIV, RSV, NRSV, NAS, NAB, and Jerusalem Bible translators were all wrong -- then the prophecy would still only hold evidentiary power to those who had previously decided that Jesus was the Messiah.
  
  Suppose that Micah had written, "During the reign of a Roman king of Judea, whose name is Herod, a blind albino lute player will be born in Bethlehem. That blind albino lute player will be the Messiah!"
  
  That prophecy is theoretically testable, in that it is specific and detailed.
  
  If I knew that Micah's words were irrefutably prediction, and not history, and if I knew that the events he described had actually occurred, then they might be evidence of Micah's prophetic powers, and those prophetic powers might reasonably be accepted as evidence that this blind albino lute player was the Messiah.
  
  However, how could anyone prove that a blind albino lute player had been born in Bethlehem 2,000 years ago, without at least the existence of a body?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chasuk,
  
  Exactly. And as to an omniscient deity, one would expect specificity of any prophecy made, i.e., born such and such year, by the name of such and such, of such height, who will be recorded by so and so historian...
  
  I mean, it still reminds me so much of a version of cold reading - the believers offer the details after the fact.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  vector,
  
  You don't make point - you made baseless claims and then howl like a mad dog when someone challenges your baseless assertions.
  
  Until you decide to make a point, I'll continue to treat you like the barking mad dog you impersonate so well.
  
  And if my point wasn't right that later authors wrote fiction to make Jesus appear to be the messiah, explain why Matthew had Jesus ride into Jerusalem on two donkeys instead of one, as the prophecy says.
  
  The reason? He wasn't very good at translating Hebrew so he screwed up his version of the fairy tale.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know about it being a fairy tale necessarily but I have noticed something else. All the prophecies Jesus supposedly fulfilled were hand picked out of the bible. He never fulfils them all. For example, the prophecies listed in the book of Ezekiel are generally overlooked because they refer to a lot of specifics that Jesus never met. If he didn't meet them all, then he wasn't the Messiah and therefore he hasn't come yet. Just my observation.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  More prophecy problems. Take these two claims: Luke 24:46. "Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures."
  
  A small snag in this fulfillment - the prophecy doesn't exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is there a prophecy of a 3-day resurrection.
  
  Pretty easy to claim fulfillment of a non-existent prophecy.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As a fact there is. You are showing your own ignorance of the scriptures.
  
  But I will give you this to read.
  
  John 9:40-41
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, all you did was make a baseless claim. Saying it is there is not the same as producing the quotation.
  
  And I shall give you something to read:
  
  Deuteronomy 23: 12-13.
  
  "You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there, and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement."
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who said that it was a prophecy? Luke, the author, was writing in the present and future, not the pass. Jesus, the Son of God, had stated such.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus said it was prophecy, which is clear in context.
  
  "He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'
  
  Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, 'This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.'" -- Luke 24:44-50
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly.
  
  Also, consider this. Which is more likely: that the actual son of god, an all-knowing deity, would not know the accurate scripture and misquote it, or that the human author of the gospel of Luke would screw it up because he got the 3-day resurrection urban legend by reading the gospel of Mark and repeating it?
  
  PS: It is known that Luke and Matthew both copied liberally from the book of Mark, as Luke is about 50% verbatim while Matthew is around 70% verbatim.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God had already written this Scripture as all before the founding of the world. Jesus was telling what had been written by His Heavenly Father. Refer to the scripture being codified in the OT is none existence.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So Jesus presciently quoted scripture in which he presciently quoted himself. Better than that, Jesus' father wrote this scripture -- before the founding of the world -- that Jesus presciently quoted presciently quoting himself.
  
  The references to the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms were presumably included just to assuage fallible human minds.
  
  How cunningly irrefutable.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No worse then overlook that the name of the messiah is Immanuel, not Jesus, or overlooking that Jesus is of Moabite and Ammonite descent, which makes him cursed and unable to enter into the congregation of the Holy Assembly. As does the fact that incest took place in his blood line. But again, these are things that are overlooked in the search for a Messiah.
  
  http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, Jesus spoke for people to hear. Even today, we must speak the Word over and over and over.
  
  God is omniscience. He see the beginning from the end.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not necessarily because those prophecies are lost. I got this from an atheist site, can you believe it?
  
  Quotes of non-existent passages — when the biblical authors give quotations corresponding to no known writings, or reference books that have long since been lost;
  
  Incorrect quotes of canonical passages — when the biblical authors quote passages that appear elsewhere in the Bible, but garble their quotations, give an incorrect attribution, or get specific details wrong;
  
  and Correct quotes of non-canonical passages — when the biblical authors quote, cite, or otherwise treat as canonical known books that were rejected as untrustworthy by the church councils that assembled the Bible as we have it today.
  
  http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/mist … pture.html
  
  Works get lost and writers are humans and are going to make mistakes.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Reference?
  
  Never seen those.
  
  Point them out for me?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, thank you for the degrading imagery.. speaking of not making any point.
  
  You never address anything within the previous post, you always jump onto some 'amazing' insight you've come up with like the ADD took over and one subject is impossible for you.
  
  You're trolling..
  
  Chow
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not trolling but casting about for fools - and I keep catching big ones who claim prophecies in the bible are foolproof.
  
  The author of the book of Matthew was notorious for trying to make everything he wrote about appear to be fulfillment of prophecy. How else could you con the pagans to convert to your new religion unless you told a convincing story?
  
  So Matthew told a story about scriptures (Micah 5:2) prophecying that the messiah would come from Bethlehem. Trouble is, his claim wasn't true.
  
  The Septuagint translation, the version that Matthew and other New Testament writers most often relied on when quoting OT "prophecies" says this:
  
  "And thou, Bethlehem, house of Ephrathah, art few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah: yet out of thee shall one come forth to me, to be a ruler of Israel."
  
  Micah was speaking of a clan, a group of people, not a town, and it had nothing to do with the messiah.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's why I truly suggest that he recognize the problem, and get some help. The cognitive dissonance that these debates are causing in the psyche of the affected believer must be tramatic, yet they find ways to assuage it...and go right on asserting abject nonsense.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
I think your debunking button is on the fritz. IF: there are 3 billion people who represent the three top religions, and if there are 6 billion people on the planet, then the other half of the world's population is chinese. Atheists don't count for much, now do they?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And still your God is imaginary. Or do you have new evidence? If not then I stand by my statement. These silly beliefs can practically be debunked by a child.
  
  Just because most of the world chooses to be delusional does not give one once of credibility to your delusional beliefs. Now does it?
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
You don't know anything about "my God." For one, He's not mine. I can understand a car w/o owning one. Two, your statements are about christianity or some such related dogma. You assume too much. Proof that God does not exist is non-existant. List the beliefs, and in doing so, it will be clear that you lack any understanding of anything beyond the end of your nose.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right. That's because It is imaginary.
  
  Sure...This God is also everything and everywhere. Riighttt!!!
  
  Good!
  
  Actually, I don't know what you believe, but I am quite sure that it lacks any validity.
  
  Wow!!! People who believe in imaginary realities are very touchy about their delusions. Good grief!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right.
  
  Sure...
  
  Riighttt!!!
  
  Good!
  
  Wow!!!
  
  Good grief!
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. Rather than be honorable enough to actually debate this issue with critical thinking and evidence to support your lies, you have stooped to this very dishonorable level.
  
  Just what did you expect to gain by posting such a childish response? It only shows that you don't even qualify for discussing any subject that requires honesty and maturity.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is your sarcasm in that post.
  
  Do you need quotation marks?
  
  Childish response? Well, I wasn't going to say it, but since you have..
  
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Actually, I could say the same thing about what you believe. Not much of a debate or forum. Kinda kills the mood. Hubpages oughtta love you.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you can say just about anything you want. That still doesn't mean that you make any sense. Just like this assertion makes no sense.
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paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago
I just thought I would drop by this friendly thread and say:

Philosophy is not an exact science. Religion is a subset of philosophy. Thus some things cannot be proven or disproven. Only theories can be formulated and contemplated. As long as the theories are recognized as theories and not falsely perceived to be facts, then no one will go too far astray. But when a theory is falsely perceived as fact, then is when the problems start... And there is nothing wrong in having a working theory that one lives by.

Paradigmsearch now peacefully disappears...
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Maybe the blind comments of non-believers doesn't affect believers at all. I don't feel traumatized. I still say that if you don't have the capacity to check the math, then you are accepting conclusions of science on faith and faith alone.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it does, but your delusion swiftly steps in to save itself. you are not in control.
  
  Yet you hold ridiculous beliefs that contradict reality. No cognitive dissonance, huh?
  
  This is a prime example of the delusion doing the talking for you.
  I never said I blindly follow science. And even if I did, you should know by now that negating someone else's view doesn't validate yours. Now does it?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you going to submit a post that ISN'T a repeat of the last 100??
  
  Please jump off the cliff and claim they aren't repeats..
  
  I'll be smiling as I employ those copy and paste functions to construct a well executed check-mate on such assertion.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, Wilmiers. Knock it off. Oh...you weren't talking to Wilmiers?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well how sweet. A rescue attempt to save the bold stray.
  
  Is your interjection an indicator of? what?
  
  1-You would like more attention and hero status to boot.
  2-He fights for your cause and was incapable of handling self by your view.
  or
  3-You seen an open post that needed a subject change and seen opportunity for personal pick advertising against wilmiers.
  
  How bout it Winston?
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  :ahem:
  
  Thank you for the false assertion.
  
  Please show where, and what in that post was a lie.
  
  I can't wait...
  
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  ackman1465posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thot Jesus didn't spend a lot of time hating.... . Care to expand on this???
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
You are in the minority on planet earth. 3 billion believers of one stripe or another, and three billion chinese doesn't leave a lot of room for atheists, which means also that you expect most of us to back down and accept your claptrap.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A bunch of fearful sycophants complimented the ridiculous, naked Emperor on his wonderful new clothing, yet one youth had the courage to muster the integrity to accept reality. See, your threats only mean something to fearful followers, not free-thinkers.
  
  It is obvious by your incessant posting of this same statement that you believe that others should be allowed to do your thinking. And that somehow, we should respect your nonsense, based upon the fact that you, and your ilk are greater in number.
  
  Just like the youth in the story, I have the integrity to proclaim that "religious beliefs are absurd!"
  
  That includes whatever your beliefs are.
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wilmiers77posted 12 years ago
So? People have been telling you that God is awesome. His Will is absolute. He power extends over nations and into the heavens. Your fragile little Fannie should never challenge God. God judges you and determines what is right or wrong. Sorry that you weren't born a god.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes I wonder how they miss something larger than the universe..
  
  And then they DEMAND He does what they want??
  
  "prove this" "prove that"
  
  Pharisees haven't gone anywhere it seems.. They just got worse.
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  wilmiers77posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree whole heartedly. Let the two of us continue putting 10,000 atheist to flight.
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peanutroasterposted 12 years ago
Don't forget all of the other books that were left out or tossed aside to create the condensed version.
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EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years ago
Just thought I'd drop this here for any that might actually be interested.

http://blog.themonastery.org/2011/08/bible-shows-human-errors-scholars-say/
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
The name of the rebellious angel was Lucifer. There was never an angel called Satan, Devil etc.
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  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your right Druid Dude. Here's a link to some other things that are "supposed" to be in the bible but really are not.
  
  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/0 … the-bible/
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A very good article, thanks for posting.
  
  These phantom verses have bred phantom ideas and mythology that pervade Christian beliefs today, such as satan being some beautiful angel that was thrown out of heaven because his pride got the better of him, or that Satan was a talking snake in the garden of Eden. So much so that much of these unbiblical ideas are now key doctrine, where to call them out runs the risk of being branded at best not a proper Christian, and at worst, some weirdly culty type.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think the fallen angel became known as Lucifer because Satan means "adversary" and he does oppose God.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lucifer is not an angel, but it is a Latin word crow barred into Isaiah 14, which talks bout the king of Babylon, not some spirit being. In short lucifer does not exist.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that the Isaiah passage was referring to Lucifer and the King of Babylon and they are not synonymous.
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chatpilotposted 12 years ago
I have never bothered to go to a Christian forum but I do participate often in atheist forums. Even that is beginning to get under my skin and become a bore since I don't like to argue about apologetics, philosophy of religion, theology etc. I think that these disciplines are nothing more than a huge waste of time and unnecessary mental gymnastics. I have a blog which I write and maintain but I don't allow myself to get sucked into debates about nothing. I am sure God doesn't exist "to my own satisfaction" and that is enough for me. I could care less what other atheists or believers think about my position. Since it is convincing enough to me I don't feel the need to defend it either.
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  Insane Mundaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your second sentence said: "Even that is beginning to get under my skin and become a bore since I don't like to argue about apologetics, philosophy of religion, theology etc. I think that these disciplines are nothing more than a huge waste of time and unnecessary mental gymnastics."
  
  Dang, I almost believed ya until I seen the titles on your highly debatable hubs! Ha! That was funny! You just like it elsewhere, as opposed to a public forum; gotcha! LOL!
  reply report

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