Do you believe in Hell?

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68
A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years ago
If so, why?

If not, why?

(I am not only talking to Christians, because they are not the only people who believe in Hell)

Do you believe it justified, if it does exist (in your opinion)? If so, why?
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1. 59
  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It depends on what you mean by hell... I think hell is more a state of mind than any litteral existance...
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  justuhmainaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  life is a state of mind. It all depends on being true to what one believes. I believe we are in hell now. Others believe we all go to hell when we die. Truth is, when something is not working properly, it IS hell
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  NO
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3. 61
  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  not in the least. it's like heaven, god and satan, little tales to make people scared and to keep them in line.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So the existence of eternity is a fairy tale too?
  
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  of course it is. i doubt almost anyone really believes it but they sure want to.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh many many people believe in it. It drives them to be a certain in this life. Many MANY people believe in it, and don't realize how ridiculously egocentric of an idea it is. That your being is so very important that your soul will "live on" even after death. I believed it once. It helped me to get through the day.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm disappointed.
  
  Maybe you can see how ridiculous the opposite is, as the facts prove the "egocentric" truth.
  
  That was rather harsh, btw. [maybe no name calling?]
  
  I did not write the Law, I simply studied and learned it.
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, well.. Hook, line, and sinker.
  
  I was hoping you'd bite, and confidently it seems as well.
  
  The Law of Conservation of Energy dear sir.
  
  Energy itself is eternal. Something cannot be eternal if there is no such thing as eternity.
  
  Some of my most stubborn opponents here won't deny this fact I've pointed out, so please don't make me elaborate.
  
  Eternity exists Mr nightwork4.
  
  And science has proven it.
  
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  science has proven no such thing bud. it's one of those things that science hasn't even touched in depth yet.energy may be eternal to some but in reality, everything dies. that's reality. sorry.vector7, i'm glad i made your day and bit, but i'm happy to say i bit with common sense not drable.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I could he been nicer about it for sure.. But whether you accept it or not doesn't matter.
  
  Energy is eternal. If you can't see that then there is no use of me replying again after this.
  
  Have a good one Mr nightwork.
  
  Apologies for being, well, not so kind.
  
  Working on doing better.
  
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  61
  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  actually energy hasn't been proven to be eternal so your opinion is not only humorous but your arrogance is rather cute. as for you replying, do you seriously think someone like you matters to me , surely you jest.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was just an agreement to disagree and an apology Mr nightwork.
  
  I didn't claim to matter at all.
  
  Have a good one.
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  YogaKatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bad karma response from nightwork4 - guess you guys will get that figured out in your next life.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Karma happens, these people seem to think we create our karma through action, not choice of placement. If I stub my toe, it is my karma and has nothing to do with negative action.
  
  The most prosperous kings have no virtue, yet they seek it. The poorest men have great virtue, yet they do not seek power. The most properous king may never see disease, though they may know pain. The poorest man of great virtue may only know sorrow, though he is richest of all.
  
  Karma is not the result of action, it just happens.
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  59
  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well I believe in karma, but it's kinda like I hit you, God hits me [you know with a lesson or whatever, probably not a fun one].
  
  And he said "bud" lol...
  
  And I've never had any scientifically inclined person deny it [yet] so that one hit the giggle trigger hard..
  
  All I got was good out of it.
  
  I was just being nice not posting my laughing cuz I know it looks arrogant.
  
  But he sent me for a loop every post. I've been cracking up ever since every time I check the thread.
  
  I had a friend named Kat in the film industry.
  
  I know I could do better YogaKat, but at least I admit I'm still learning.
  
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See the above comment for the description of karma...
  With karma there is no system of punishment or reward, it just happens.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was a haha, I made a funny misch.
  
  I know it's different than my belief.
  
  Like in your post.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "With karma there is no system of punishment or reward, it just happens."
  
  That's interesting, because in the West we're usually taught that the classic idea of karma is that every bad thing you do in this life and every good thing you do in this life determine what your next life will be. In that way it IS a system of reward and punishment.
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  59
  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read about it, not in the western classics but direct translations, new additions.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I put myself in a position of power, some people will seek said power for themselve's.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Any specific recommendations?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  An 8 billion year old sun speaks to me of the possibility of eternity. If dating the earth is correct and some stars are correct then to think that it took some time for our sun to be here speaks to me of eternity.
  Created things are usually outlived by the creator. Usually.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey nightwork - WRONG : go here :
  
  watch this video below (in two parts) :
  
  This man died, saw hell and heaven and then returned. Have met
  him personally - ALL IS TRUE - 100%
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
  
  Blessings In Truth.....
  
  Elijah
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org
  
  † Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 †
  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
  and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
  descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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  SandyMcCollumposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe hell is here on Earth, and like life, it's what we make of it. Since Jesus died for everyone's sins, it doesn't make sense that He'd save a place for some to be punished. Earth is the place where all the suffering and hardships are. Heaven is truly Heaven because it is not Earth, although there are some really beautiful places here. Just mho.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't make sense to say Jesus saves and there not be a place from which one is to be saved...
  
  Or to pick and choose between His teachings. He taught of the place.
  
  Matthew 5:21-30
  
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  MichaelGallingerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I do not believe in hell. If there is any where's the proof?
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dear Michael,
  
  Watch this video below (in two parts) :
  
  This man died, saw hell and heaven and then returned. Have met
  him personally - ALL IS TRUE - 100%
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
  
  Blessings In Truth.....
  
  Elijah
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org
  
  † Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 †
  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
  and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
  descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It may be a fact that he died, what he said could very well have been lies. Of course he could've had a genuine experience, who's to say it wasn't imagined? If it was true, why are there not more cases like his? Why is not every doccumented case, tied in with such experiences?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And a better question is why would God not let every human being alive experience this so that they could experience it all themselves?
  
  And then after such an experience, He could even appear to them, appeal to them in exactly the way that they need in order for it to sink in for them, and presto, everyone would know without a shadow of a doubt that He is real.
  
  (That would make it too easy, I guess. And that's no fun. )
  
  But all these little VERY subjective experiences are still just hear say, and quite possibly tricks being played on the mind in those last moments. Different people experience different things in their NDE (Near Death Experiences) and not all people with positive experiences are Christians. This shows the ambiguity of it, and their reliability is questionable. Who's to say whose experience was genuine and whose wasn't (meaning a Christian might claim that a non-bleiever with a positive experience was being tricked by the devil. I don't actually believe any of them to be true, but there could be some "truth" to a degree). People's NDE may be exactly what they need to experience personally, for self improvement, improved survival, etc., since they are indeed going to have to go back to reality. It could just be some trippy dream, that would have faded away had they actually died. It could be that the similar experiences are seen in the mind a certain way in many different people because those chemicals released cause certain hallucinations (quite similar to how taking certain drugs can give you similar and also different side effects depending on the persons physical make-up), and then a combination of what I said before. No one really knows for sure. And to base one's faith in something on hear say is problematic.
  
  Many religious see us analytics as heathens who look for every reason to disagree with them. There are some trolls out there, and atheists just as dogmatic as some Christians. But in reality, many of us take it more seriously then they seem to understand. At least the people in the same or similar boat as me. I won't just accept something as 100% percent truth just because someone else believes it is, (and it isn't provable) and are convinced in the wisdom of an old, contradictory book. Especially if it's all unavoidably subjective (this happens when there is mystery involved).
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey - thanks for the reply. The Truth IS Out There. You have to WANT to find The Truth. The internet is a repository for facts and fiction. Here are The Facts you NEED TO BELIEVE :
  
  EVIDENCE : Internet Explorer Version :
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/Constella … -Seven.htm
  
  EVIDENCE : All other browsers :
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/Constella … -Seven.htm
  
  † Mark 16 : 15 - 16 †
  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world,
  and preach the gospel to every creature.
  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
  but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, of course I believe in hell. I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus died to save me from my sins. But if He died to save me, what did He die to save me from? Not living my best life now?
  So I started reading the Bible, and Jesus talks more about hell than He does about Heaven, and He's pretty specific about it not being a nice place.
  You and I have discussed why I believe in God, but I am happy to go over it again.
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  Dale Hydeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just simply NO.... Jesus did not teach it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then what was He talking about in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man? The worm that does not die? Various sayings like that? Are you saying that He never said those things (the position of the Jesus Seminar) or are you saying that He was actually saying something else and the majority of theologians and scholars just didn't get it, or that Jesus never existed?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe he was talking about hell in the Rich Man and Lazarus tale. It was a parable, not to be taken literally therefore. It also make no sense literally; no reason is given for the rich ban deserving hell, abd why was Lazarus specifically named? The rich man was dressed I purple which is significant too, as well as the number of brothers. I see it as a parable between the loss of Israel to the gain of Gentikes inthe kingdom of God.
  
  I have written a hub about this but I'm not allowed to advertise that in forumland.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree, but even if the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was only a story, illustrative but in no way literal, then how do you explain all the other times Jesus talked about hell as a literal place?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to mention Revelation's account.
  
  It's pretty descriptive and sounds pretty literal to me.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Revelation cannot be read literally. Right from the get go, the angel stated that the message was a sign, thus symbolic, analogy, metaphor. Nobody would suggest that Jesus had a literal sword hanging out of his mouth, or that a woman can stand on the moon clothed in the sun, or that eagles and thunder could talk, or that a 10 headed dragon walks out of the literal sea.
  
  So if universally these are accepted as signs, symbols, analogies, there is no logic in then saying that the lake of fire is literal.
  
  Hell is derived derived from an Anglo-Saxon word that means covered, or unseen, a description of the state of the dead. Much like the Jewish definition of Sheol.
  
  Jesus talked about Gehenna which is the Greek rendering of the Valley of Hinnom which runs to the South West of Jerusalem. It was the local rubbish dump and regularly set on fire to cleans and purifiy, thus the flames were not quenched. The worm (maggot) did not die. It had a notorious reputation as this is where Israel sacrificed their children in furnaces to Molech. God proclaims his wrath upon these kings as a result. See 2 Chron 28:1-5 and 2 Chron 33: 1-6.
  
  Now if God's wrath is against Israel for sacrificing their children in flames, then how much of a hypocritical monster is God made out to be if we say he will do the exact same thing to those who died without believing in Jesus?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, indeed.
  
  So what you're saying is that since it is universally accepted that Revelation is full of signs, symbols and analogies, it therefore is not logical to say that anything in it is literal.
  
  Therefor, to use your logic, since you are represented by an icon and use an artificially created tag meant to obscure you actual identity, it is therefor not logical to believe anything you say, or even that you exist.
  
  Interesting, indeed...
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True - except ALSO, The Book Of Revelation contains Visions of Future Events.
  
  Since the Writing was Completed by the end of the First Century AD, we are NOW able to Pinpoint some of these - ACTUALLY, Some are Major, recent global Events & Topics of the 20th Century (and into this 21st Century) NOTE : 21st Century AFTER the Virgin Birth Of WHO ?????? hmmmmm - SEE - Not bad for ONLY a 3.5 year Ministry. † † †
  
  Anyhow, here's SEVEN of the bigger known Events & Topics (NOT IN ANY PARTICULAR PROPHETIC NOR CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER) :-
  
  1). Deforestation.
  
  2). Near extinction of certain whales and massive disappearances of cod in the atlantic and suchlike global overfishing.
  
  3). Oil slicks, river pollution and suchlike, including red tides and the blood in the waters from Wars, particularly from 1914 - 1945 and other wars.
  
  4). Chernobyl and nuclear power for electricity generation.
  
  5). WW 1 & WW 2 (and other) aerial bombing campaigns.
  
  6). The massive loss of life of young soldiers fighting against tyranny in the Big 20th Century Wars and the huge shipping losses in WW1 & WW 2.
  
  7). The Crossroads' Pacific Ocean Atom Bomb Test (mountain of water)
  
  Now see if you can READ properly (you have been rather RUDE with me) so forgive my somewhat abrasive attitude now) :-
  
  NB : A Talent is approximately 100 lbs in weight (110 lbs)
  
  † Revelation 16 : 21 †
  
  "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."
  
  † Revelation 8 : 7 - 11 †
  
  "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
  
  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
  
  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."
  
  Finally, for a more detailed translation of the above and a multitude of other Supernatural Proof Prophecies take time in this link below.
  
  http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/Genesis/
  
  POINT : Every Word of The Most Holy Bible is 100% PERFECT, ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You WILL Need The Holy Spirit to Help you. Am Praying He WILL, In JESUS' Holy Name - Amen
  
  THEREFORE, Hell and Heaven are REAL, ACTUAL PLACES - Alleluia.
  
  http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/Genesis/
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry you thought I was being rude to you. I was actually having fun with disappearinghead.
  
  Sorry!
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No Chris - NOT you - i meant disppearinghead & a thousand words from an EARLIER exchange about Bible Scripture and websites and stuff... NP... E
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8. 59
  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only got ONE STATEMENT to Deliver to EVERY ATHEIST on the ENTIRE planet (this includes ALL peoples of every religion, philosphy, cult and suchlike) :-
  
  There is only one GOD. HE Wrote ONE HOLY BIBLE, in Hebrew and Greek, with some Aramaic & Tongues (Daniel), OVER A 4100 YEAR TIME PERIOD. He Created the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, past, present and future.
  
  He Lives OUTSIDE of Time and INSIDE Now. He is A Spirit In SEVEN.
  
  He Visited THIS earth ONCE as A Man (Mary's womb was broken once from THE INSIDE, not the outside).
  
  He was Crucified, Resurrected and Ascended and IS ALIVE RIGHT NOW. He Sees EVERYTHING By The Holy Spirit.
  
  He LOVES EVERYONE, and ONLY Seeks that they BELIEVE THE TRUTH and then RESPOND to that Truth.
  
  EVERYTHING IS ALREADY IN WRITING.
  
  He is PERFECTLY Fair and Totally Righteous.
  
  Every single soul GETS MANY CHANCES to Repent and be Baptized and to follow on to Know The Lord Intimately.
  
  Eventually, there is a CUT OFF date, when EVERYONE will have had the Chance To BELIEVE The Fundamental Gospel.
  
  What you Believe OR disbelieve 100% GUARANTEES your eternal destiny, BOTH now and FUTURE.
  
  There is an EVIL ENTITY responsible for ALL sin and carnage down through history, BECAUSE "IT" persuades people to DISBELIEVE God !!!
  
  The inherent nature of SIN in every soul only has ONE ANTIDOTE; This IS Provided IN THE IMMORTAL LIFE, BLOOD AND BODY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ONLY - nothing else; NO-ONE else.
  
  This is Achieved By FAITH and OBEDIENCE, with some Discipline and Sacrifice.
  
  Only a sin-free soul receives ETERNAL LIFE One Day.
  
  Without The sinless JESUS all mankind IS DOOMED !!!
  
  Anyone who EVER reads this has a CHANCE NOW to defeat satan in THEIR OWN life here :
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
  Take some GOOD ADVICE from An Experienced EXPERT :-
  
  Believe this and SAVE yourselves whilst you STILL have a Chance !!!
  
  This is NOT a threat, nor even a Warning.
  
  THIS IS AN IMMUTABLE FACT as REAL as this Universe is REAL.
  
  If anyone REALLY wants to KNOW how i KNOW this is 100% ABSOLUTE & TOTALLY FACTUAL, then WRITE ME AN EMAIL.
  
  It might help to let you ALL know, i HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE !!!!!!
  
  i am HERE AGAIN to tell you This Gospel Truth, in The Hope, you WILL Believe, and therefore, will NOT be consigned to HELL for over 1000 years into the future.
  
  ALSO, i cannot ABIDE the thought of satan OWNING your soul and taking YOU to the Lake of Fire ONE DAY, After The Final Judgment...
  
  That's it....
  
  Love, Hope, Blessings and Eternal Truth In JESUS THE SON OF GOD ALIVE IN HEAVEN NOW...
  
  Yours PERFECTLY TRULY,
  
  Elijah (my REAL name)
  
  Malachi 4 : 5-6
  
  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV
  
  † Acts 2:38 †
  Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you
  in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
  and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." AMEN & AMEN
  
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9. 59
  iefox5posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Though I'm not Christian, I believe hell and heaven are there. Bad guys will go to hell and good guys to heaven after death.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi iefox,
  
  The Issue is WE ARE ALL BAD In The Eyes Of The Only Holy God.
  
  He Created Heaven, Earth and Hell and Revelaed Himself over a 4100 year period in The Most Holy Bible.
  
  The PROBLEM is inherent, inherited SIN.
  
  The ONLY Way to be "GOOD" is to Believe, Trust, Love and Submit to The Lordship of JESUS Christ The King.
  
  Once this is done, by Simple Faith in The Gospel, The Holy Spirit WILL Visit and Confirm EVERYTHING, over Time.
  
  The Best Route is Baptism (as an adult) - JESUS Himself was Baptized to Show The Way.
  
  Then begin Learning The Most Holy Bible and find a local Assembly and make friends (Full Gospel Evangelical is Level One, Top Notch).
  
  To help you GUARANTEE your own Safe Place In Heaven, One Very Fine Day, the Prayer to Begin The Journey is linked below.
  
  We WILL Pray ALSO, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU, because you were so honest.
  
  God LOVES Honest people.
  
  No shame in this at all. Once you have been "Awakened", EVERYTHING in the whole Universe and ALL things down here on earth, past, present and future, become CRYSTAL CLEAR.
  
  JESUS is Ready (In His Most Holy Spirit) to Receive your Prayer and Respond - The RESPONSE Is Absolutely Awesome - Supernatural, Loving, Kind, Forgiving and TOTALLY Revelationary.
  
  In fact man, HERE's The Prayer. This is between YOU and God - some quiet time and some meditation on The FACTS of Christ, and just a tiny Seed of Faith is ALL that is Required, In The Most Holy Name of The Lord JESUS, Crucified, Resurrected & Ascended, ALIVE In Heaven RIGHT NOW, for you PERSONALLY - Amen & Amen
  
  [AND for EVERYONE ELSE - Alleluia]
  
  Love, Hope & Truth...
  
  Elijah
  
  Just By Faith, PLEASE say the Following Prayer, Believing from your
  heart of hearts, to Meet Christ NOW In His Holy Spirit - Amen
  
  "i Believe that JESUS Christ IS The ONLY Begotten Son Of God.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ was Crucified for MY Sins and the
  Sins of ALL people who WILL Truly Believe In Him.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Resurrected on The Third Day.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Physically Ascended Back to Heaven
  Forty Days AFTER He Rose, Alive From The Dead.
  
  i NOW Ask For His Holy Spirit to Fill me and Forgive me for ALL my
  Sins, past, present and future BECAUSE i Truly REPENT of them.
  
  i Ask for His Holy Blood to be Applied to Cleanse ALL of my Sins.
  
  From NOW on i will Remain a True Believer In JESUS Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour, and will Commune with His Holy Spirit regularly by Faith and Prayer and Through Study of His Most Holy Bible.
  
  i agree to seek out a Full Gospel local church to be Baptized and Born
  Again, and will Honour His Sunday Assemblies at every opportunity.
  
  i renounce ALL the works of The Devil and Turn Away from
  ALL my past sins and Commit my life to The Lord.
  
  i will Trust JESUS In His Father God and be a Faithful Witness of His
  Holy Truth to ALL who have YET to Believe as i do NOW.
  
  i Ask Father, For The Baptism of The Holy Ghost and The Holy Gifts Of
  Thy Perfect Spirit, to be a Wonderful Christian soul ALL the days of my life.
  
  i have NO doubts Now and Know you have Forgiven me and Love me,
  and will NOW Guide me and Lead me as my True Father In Heaven.
  
  Lord JESUS, Hallowed Be Thy Name; Thy Kingdom Come - Amen and Amen"
  
  The Prayer was taken from this link below which is a Revelation Web Portal to ALL Facts Related to God, JESUS, Holy Scripture and Multiple Testimonies & Evidence. - Amen
  
  Please fell free to email anytime for more Encouragment and Truth - Amen
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
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10. 60
  taw2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, hell do exist.it is the other face of world where violence and pain dominates .
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wildernessposted 12 years ago
Hell, Heaven, Valhalla, Purgatory, Oz, Wonderland, on and on.

They are all equally real. If a person can convince themselves of the reality of these places then, for them, they are real. As real as Bigfoot or Nessie, as real as Thor or Odin, as real as Atlantis or Brobdingnag
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MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago
There is absolutely nothing that a hell could do that would come close to what I've lived through... So either hell does not exist or I've already been there.

Sorry if that sounded a little melodramatic and emo but it is honestly the truth.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wanna see my scars or at least some x-rays. I know pain so intinmately, I almost love it. Hell is mental though, not so much a physical thing. Pain only worsens when it is obsessed upon, thinking about it only intensifies the effect of pain.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *grins* My shoulder is currently out of socket because I no longer have a socket for it to be in. I was going in for the final X rays before surgery when the neat little pregnancy blood test they give as a precaution before x-rays popped positive. No surgery (high risk pregnancy) dislocated shoulder for the last 5 months and for the next 5 months. 50 lb daughter that has to be carried up 4 flights of stairs at least twice a day... Oh and did I mention 4 deliveries with NO pain meds at all? LOL, wanna trade war stories (All of that was said in a playful mood btw)
  
  But I agree with you, mental pain is the worst. Yet sometimes we really do need to dwell on the pain to get past it... sometimes I honestly think you really never should get past some things as well. Sometimes holding on to the pain actually keeps you honest. In my case, the reminder makes me a better person.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To be familliar with suffering, leads one to experience the greatest levels of joy. Joy and pain are polar opposites, though one could not exist without the other, nor the in between.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For once I agree completely with you.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LoL. For once. I'm glad my forum brought you guys on the same page, even if only for a moment.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My kung fu teacher was from a small villiage in Cambodia, one of the starving kids with the big belly. He knew suffering to levels unheard of in this country, though he's one of the happiest people I've ever met. He eats like there is no tomorrow, but his modesty abroad is almost disconcerting. In other words, he makes me feel like a jerk, as if modesty is not a quality I possess.
  
  The only pain I truly can say brought me any modecum of the understanding of joy, was the death of my mother. Though I did shatter my heel, spent a year in jail, I fell off a cliff in Utah, fell on a cactus in Arizona, took a knife in Tampa and I have arthritis.
  
  Though pain is powerful, life can have a potency all the same.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wowzers. I'm kind of speechless, as far as your unfortunate happenings are concerned. And I do very much agree with your last statement. And I'm also sorry for your loss (your mother). I'd be devastated if anything happened to mine.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  10 years and it still feels as if it were yesterday, I miss my mommy...
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you as well. There are some things that I do hold onto. There are some things that I can't. But, it does keep me honest.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry that life has brought such things your way.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh my, I didn't mean to seem like I needed sympathy, but thank you. I absolutely adore my life now. As a bonus I have a new sense of perspective... the good things seem amazing yet the little irritations don't even make me bat my eyelashes.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I didn't think you were. I just have a habit of saying I'm sorry to people when bad stuff has, did happen to them. Especially to such an extent. I have truly known despair before. That could've been described as hell, and all the physical symptoms that came along with it.
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One of the more useful things I have learned in life is that you can be sorry that something has happened without it being your fault...
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I am already aware, and it is an unpleasant thought, but I have decided not to let such things rule me. I have done my best to become my own person and overcome the the things in my past that led up to who I used to be. I just look forward, with a different outlook on life, and a new found confidence in myself, a the least selfish love I've ever dished out or received (including, but not only with, my boyfriend)
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mcals71posted 12 years ago
I do, and if you want to know what hell is, and why I believe in hell, based on what the Bible says, you can read my hub on "hell, what and why".

I realize that hell is a scary idea and for that reason it's a lot easier not to think about it, but choosing not to believe in the existence of hell doesn't make it go away.

Sure, life is hard for everybody, and for some people this life can be a hellish experience, but nothing compares with the real thing.

We are approaching Easter, which is the celebration of Christ's Resurrection. Surely if He chose to leave the comforts of Heaven and come into the world to give His life to save us there must be a very good reason.

He came to save us from something awful enough that He deemed it worthy to suffer as He did (watch the movie: Passion of the Lord).

So yes, I do believe in hell, but the fear of hell is not what motivates me to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. What motivates me is my love for God and my faith in Him.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe in Hell. I want it to be clear that I don't, not because it doesn't feel good to consider that it exists, but that it has no justification, and it would also help to believe in spiritual realms, which I do not.
  
  Btw, did you mean "Passion of the Christ." I saw this movie already, if so. If not, then I'll look up the movie, although I already have a fairly deep understanding of the BIble from a Christian's perspective, as well as a nonChristian, as I am the latter, and was once the former.
  
  However, I will read your hub. See if there is anything that I didn't/haven't come across in my studies specifically concerning Hell. Thank you, mcals71.
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  mcals71posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I did mean The Passion of the Christ, A Thousand Words. I watch it once a year on Good Friday, (that's all I can bear) and still I can't remember the correct title, LOL! If you read my hub, let me know how you dispute it. I did a lot of Scriptural research when I wrote it, and I also used objective sequential reasoning. Looking forward to reading some of your poetry :-)
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi there
  
  Please ensure that you watch this video below (in two parts) :
  
  This man died, saw hell and heaven and then returned. Have met
  him personally - ALL IS TRUE - 100%
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
  
  Blessings In Truth.....
  
  Elijah
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org
  
  † Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 †
  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
  and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
  descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet if I asked you to prove any of this, all you could show me is some 2000 year old book of childish fairytales.
  
  There is no hell...only fearful delusional people, too afraid to think for themselves.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Consider that the fear is implanted into people so that they won't think for themselves, or can't think certain things, because it is under the influence of "Satan." What better way to control the masses? It took a lot for me to get passed this fear.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it was pounded into my head from about the age of 4. Coming from a very religious family, there was no other reality. Yet this is not reality at all.
  
  Along with the fear of dying, the fear of ostracism, the fear of authority, and the fear of long dead charlatans...the fear of hell is the kicker.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand your bias now at least.
  
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  ibexgroundposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "ATW" very true but you cant throw the baby out with the bath water. I have asked myself that same question about the church's control over the people, the the churches control really didn't come until later. Maybe you haven't looked far enough into history or that we don't have overwhelming evidence, which can be tricky. I have read a number of patristic fathers that are dying horrible deaths not denying god. These people are primary and secondary sources that where with the apostles. Yes it is history but what do you say to that. I also do understand that this thought can go across the board as well.
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mcals71posted 12 years ago
And yet I stated that the fear of hell is not what motivates me to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. What motivates me is my love for God and my faith in Him. There must be millions of people who feel exactly the same.

I don't come from a background of fire and brimstone, I wasn't raised that way. My Faith Journey has gone through twists and turns as it should, if people are to think for themselves, rather than accept everything that has been taught to them in childhood.

I came to my conclusions that God exists, that there is a Heaven and a Hell, and that Jesus is my Savior through study, prayer and research, and without being pious or condescending, I'm truly sorry when I see people who are struggling through those same things, because I know from experience that deep inside it's an uncomfortable place to be, and it is a struggle.

The reason why I say it's a struggle is because there will always be a void within, that calls to be filled and nothing will ever fill it, not permanently, because everything in this life is impermanent. So it's very sad, for those who have no faith, to lose a child for example, and to know that the precious little one has been forever lost to you because you have no hope to ever reunite with your beloved child again.

If you do your research well, you will see that it isn't just the Bible that tells us about the existence of hell Getirite. Other religions (non-Christian religions) believe in the existence of hell also. Yes, even the Buddhists do. In the twentieth century there lived a man, known as Padre Pio, who bore the stigmata of Christ and who was regularly assaulted by the devil. The Church persecuted him relentlessly before finally recognizing that he was truly a man of Faith and a holy man. Read his Diary and his Epistolary if you want to do an un bias study on the subject of hell.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I had a dime for every Christian who has made this statement.
  
  I see fear being the motivational factor...Fear of dying, fear of ostracism, fear of authority...which factors are motivating you?
  
  Do you really think that you are actually thinking for yourself. I mean, someone has convinced you that a 2000 year old book of nonsensical, childish myths are the writings of a deity. Please show how you could possibly be THINKING...at all!
  
  Well, something went horribly wrong with your method. The first thing that you didn't consider was reality.
  
  Who are those people?
  
  Everything in the universe is not permanent.
  
  Denying reality is no way to deal hardship.
  
  I can't believe that in the 21st century, I'm being told by an adult that it makes sense to believe in an extremely childish, psychotic delusion. THIS IS ALARMING!
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  mcals71posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pity.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, your beliefs are pathetic. It is apparent that believers just refuse to face life as adults, so they have to allow others to do their thinking for them. Yep. Pity.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 18:3
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
  
  And you're gullible enough to actually believe this con, huh? What a pity.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your comprehension of the verse is not only questionable, but you supply the evidence in your post for concluding you indeed don't fully understand.
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pretending to know exactly what some Bronze Age goat herder meant when he wrote this ancient book of nonsense(because you possess some kind of "special" power)suggests a severe disconnect with reality.
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need to pretend anything.
  
  It's not that hard smiley.
  
  Study. Learn. Understand.
  
  This is reality.
  
  And your pictures and sarcasm don't make you look intelligent.
  
  Seriously..
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure you're not confusing inference with knowledge?
  
  Noone knows what any of the bible authors "meant" if anything different to what they actually wrote. Of course that begs the question, why didn't they just write what they meant?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If no one knows what they meant, then language is a useless communication tool and no one understands anything anyone means in any of these hubs or posts.
  
  Don't jump off a "that's impossible" cliff about something designed specifically to communicate meaning.
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the bible authors meant exactly what they wrote then how can you claim anyone does not understand the meaning of the text?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never said it was foolproof.
  
  I said it's reasonable to say one with effort is able to comprehend.
  
  There is plenty an ear-plugged idiot can't pick up on. They don't need mathmatics to lose sight of the goal...
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations! You have just relegated Thomas Jefferson, Mark Twain, and Thomas Edison to the level of ear-plugged idiots. I'm guessing these guys just never put forth any effort in order to understand reality. What idiots they were. It should have been you, with your uber superior comprehension, who invented the light bulb, and wrote the declaration of independence.
  
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  ibexgroundposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its funny because if this goat header is right, well... Its a pretty depressing world then, and life really means nothing. U are correct with saying, " suggests a severe disconnect with reality", but that's the whole thing about it. There is more to reality then just on the outside, but its just speculation because at this time there are no answers for the meaning of life. there is an ignorance yet to have the answer.
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What I find surprising is the number of people in this thread who don't believe in Hell but are so threatened by folks who believe differently than they do.
  
  My experience has been that if people are discussing different beliefs, opinions or viewpoints, the person who needs to descend into name calling and denigration of their counterpoint is usually lacking in belief or proof for their own arguments, and attacks as compensation...
  
  Just because it isn't your path doesn't make it wrong; and the need to batter other people into lockstep with your beliefs doesn't make those beliefs the only right ones....
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I feel very threatened by people who think that god told them to shoot abortion doctors or bomb abortion clinics.
  
  I feel threatened by people who think god wants them to fly planes in to buildings or strap bombs to their chest.
  
  Of course, if people didnt make it seem so acceptable to have unfounded beliefs that others could not question then it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I feel threatened by those people too, but it doesn't mean that I'm wrong to have beliefs.
  
  And my beliefs are certainly founded, not unfounded
  
  There's no problem with questioning my beliefs. That's what we're doing here and, see, I'm responding.
  
  But here's a big difference between qestioning and attacking. Any time things descend into name calling, you know that spiritual interaction is over. And folks who insist on you proving your beliefs to them are often determined not to listen and consider. At which point, it's not usually a good use of time.
  
  Any spiritual path, including one that denies spirituality, is a very personal thing. People can get directions along the way, but they have to find that path for themselves.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you can demonstrate your beliefs to be true, then they are unfounded. Believe me when I say, If you have proof for a god, REAL proof, I would be more than interested to see it.
  
  Most theists think that atheists are not listening and in my ecperience, that is because what they claim to be "proof" is not proof at all.
  
  People who claim that these beliefs are acceptable for anyone to have are simply making it easier for those who want to abuse those beliefs to make good people do bad things.
  
  Some people even do it to themselves. Thats the problem with personal beliefs, people can believe anything, and will do all sorts of terrible acts in the blind belief that they are doing good.
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Now, this is the kind of talk I'm referring to.
  
  You assume because I'm a theist that I believe certain things about you. You assume I have no proof, and you state right out that you will not accept the proof I have. And you talk about people making claims that these beliefs are acceptable for anyone, when I haven't said any such things
  
  Your filter is as big a blinder as any other spiritual belief can be. And until you can see past your beliefs about what I must be because of the way you've labelled me, you won't be able to actually hear anything I say or see who I really am.
  
  And that's kind of sad, really. I feel bad for you.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did not state that I will not accept your proof. In fact I said I would be very interested in it. Please dont lie.
  
  I am assuming you dont have proof because I dont expect you to be a selfish person and if you are not a selfish person you would have shared this proof with the world by now.
  
  I am also assuming that if you have already shared this proof, it actually isnt proof which is why I haven't seen it on the news.
  
  I also did not label you. I explained to you that "most theists in my experience"....
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And this is the kind of circular logic that makes this kind of conversation less than useful.
  
  If you've already set the parameters so that no proof will convince you, the indeed no proof will convince you
  
  For many years, the coeloecanth was believed to be extinct because noo one had seen one. but that didn't mean it was.
  
  Seeing something on the news doesn't automatically make it true, nor does its non-presence make it false. Indeed, the way Fox News has been acting, seeing something on the news might cause you to question whether it's true or not...
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea how this conversation is circular.
  
  So let me get this straight, you believe this about me even though I never told you it was true? Didnt you just wrongly accuse me of doing that to you? When did I say no proof would convince me? That wouldnt be very honest of me to myself would it? If something is proven then how could I possibly deny it?
  
  That's very interesting....
  
  No but that wasnt my point. My point was that if you had proofof a god, it would be such a huge thing that it would hit the news all over the world. By the way, I dont live in America, I dont have to put up with the biased nonsense that comes out of fox news.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, about this proof thing. It has become very clear to me that the one who asks for proof, most times unsincerely, is the one who should make themselves responsible for their soul to be ready to accept it. Unless faith has been fine-tuned and the heart is willing, the proof cannot be interpreted or seen. It's there but non-believers just can't see it because they aren't at that spiritual elevation. It's like us thinking that radiation doesn't exist because someone can't show it to us. It's only through education that we now know it exists. We had to be trained and years of research in order to understand that proof. It's the same with proof of the existence of God. If someone says there is no proof for God, they aren't spiritual mature enough to recognize it.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kind of like your 'proof' that corporations, world leaders and anyone who uses a star worships Satan? I believe Jesus made a comment about one must become childlike first. That doesn't mean ignorant and stupid.
  
  That meant loving, trusting and not always looking to read evil into every action by others. I'm curious how 'spiritually mature' you consider yourself to be and how you came to your conclusions.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is an idea among evangelicals that we don't seek God, God seeks us. And hand-in-hand with this is the Calvinist doctrine that those who believe in God and Jesus are those who God has chosen to make willing to believe in Him. In case you're wondering, yes I am an evangelical and a Calvinist (this is usually the cue for people to stop talking to me, but it's nonetheless true.) However, I'm not a "five-pointer," and one of the things I wrestle with is predestination v. free will.
  What I'm leading up to is that sometimes when you believe that it is God who makes people willing to believe, and not necessarily men who choose to believe, you can develope tunnel vision about who will be saved and who won't, and you can start coming off as arrogant about your beliefs and other people. I don't know that this describes Clair, although in the past it certainly has described me. And just because people who don't believe can be just as, or more, dogmatic and arrogant (and I'm not talking about you. I've always found you to be one of the nicer and more reasonable people on either side of this debate) is not an excuse. Jesus did tell us to go the extra mile, and the Bible does say to have a ready answer but also to have a soft one.
  
  Jesus did say that we are to be "like a child," but He said that at a time when a belief in God was a given (among the Jews.) Yes, we are to be loving and trusting, but we are to trust God implicitly. In the modern age, this is not so easy for a lot people. Of course, if you read the Bible you see it wasn't so easy two thousand years ago either!
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your comment about God choosing people to believe made me bristle, but; I'll spot you that one, under the assumption that, if God exists, that simply means some are weak and need the extra reassurance that they are loved. Because for you to believe in that and hell would be rather heinous otherwise.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's still heinous. It just helps us to understand. There was a point in my life when I needed it all desperately. The assurance, the reassurance, the "love," the community, the pats on the back, the need to feel, no, "know" that I was doing what was right. Even though I made mistakes, I knew that if I believed in Jesus and followed Him with all my heart, yadda yadda, that I would go to Heaven and be with God. I needed all of those things, But I don't anymore.
  
  And some people really just don't get that.
  
  Or see just how heinous a lot of that stuff really is and what it does to the psyche.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. When I can understand the insecurities that motivate I have a better chance to accept the person. Warts and all.
  
  I don't think I ever believed in hell, even as a child in the church. God always seemed too good for that. We went through hell (being under the watchful eye of the church ladies in the community) but we were under the assumption that God loved all mankind. Equally. It was a Baptist church, too.
  
  I haven't set foot in a church in decades, but I still wonder if I grew up in an alternate universe. The whole thing doesn't add up when I read the posts of Christians in online forums. I wonder when everything changed.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is to both Emile R and A Thousand Words -
  
  At the risk of alienating you both forever -
  
  I admit I struggle with your assertion that belief in hell as a literal place of torment is heinous. However, I do remember what it was like to not believe any of this stuff. I won't repeat the story of going from agnostic to Christian but I will repeat that I didn't "grow up" in the church, I don't really know what it's like to be in a church as a child. There were watchful eyes on me when I was a kid but it was nothing like that. And even after I became a Christian, my beliefs as they are now weren't exactly instantaneously formed ex nusquam. I heard a lot about "God is love," and practically nothing about hell. I heard a lot about Jesus saving me but almost nothing about what He was saving me from. And let me tell you, most of the preachers on tv never talk about hell. Now, if we're talking about Joel Osteen or Robert Shuller, then that's understandable. They don't preach the bible, they preach the good life of man and the goodness of man. And it's the same for the Ernest Angley's, when money is what you preach then hell is what you don't. In fact, even a lot of evangelical churches, which are supposed to be so conservative and so down on people, rarely if ever preach on hell because they're afraid of driving people away. You tend to get a lot of the same :God is love," ooey-gooey stuff, which is why universalism and Rob Bell are so popular.
  
  But then I started really reading the Bible. You know that Jesus preaches more on hell than He does Heaven? Thousand Words talks about "what it does to the psyche." Well, it certainly doesn't make you secure. Only a fool would read all that stuff and smugly think they've got it made. They will be right down there going, "Lord, didn't we cast out demons in your name?" So in that sense she's absolutely right.
  
  But...
  
  If God really is there, and He really is who He says He is (and there's five thousand years of literature on that,) then why would we feel secure anyway? I mean, come on, God created the earth by saying it. He created the moon and the stars by saying it. He created man and woman. And if He really did all that, then doesn't He have the right to say where we will go when we die and what the conditions are? More to the point, does it really make any difference if we think He doesn't?
  
  This doesn't mean that "God is not love." He does still love everyone, and He does stuff for people all the time. The ultimate act of love was for His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross in order that we don't have to go to hell. Because if God is who He says He is, then any little thing we do, any lie, any theft, any betrayal, makes us unworthy of being in Heaven with Him. But because He loves us, He made a way for us to be with Him in Heaven.
  And although fear of hell is not a bad motivator, fear of God is really a better one. And love for Him.
  
  The fact that you two bristled before (and are probably doing so right now) is really a good thing, because it means you understand what all this means. The question is; If God exists, what are you going to do with that?
  
  Most people stop talking to me when I'm not even close to this specific about it. Although I feel I have a pretty good idea of what you two probably think about all this, I would still like to know what you have to say. And no, I haven't forgotten what you wrote, Thousand Words. I do struggle with stuff. I ask, "why?" There's a lot of stuff I wish I had answers for and the ones I get don't satisfy my desire for justice. But for reasons I've enumerated often, I do know that God exists and that Jesus did come back from the dead.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see any reason to stop talking to you. I don't agree, but your words don't scare me. If God exists, I have no fear. The only way eternal hell could make sense is if it made sense. Here and now. Punishment must be fair.
  
  You can say it's God's world until the cows come home. And that may be true. But, if it is, he made it this way. No merciful God would set people up to fail. No merciful God would expect anyone to consider that fair.
  
  I simply think the concept of eternity is too big for you to wrap your head around. If you could, you'd understand.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think either I or Emile have been scared away by what you have to say. I can't comment as I would like to because I'm too busy, but I have a lot to say in regards to all this. One thing I can say now that I didn't grow up in the church myself. But, there's more to come.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, my intention was certainly not to scare you, it was more to explain the thought process. And I'm glad you're still willing to talk. But the fact remains that most people turn away when they find out I don't back down from my positions, let alone how far I go.
  
  In any case...
  
  "Punishment must be fair." I couldn't agree more. And punishment is fair, everyone has the same chance and everyone gets the same outcome based on what they do with it. It just doesn't fit our human conception of fair.
  
  And actually, God sets people up to succeed, they just decide they would rather not. That's glib, I know, and I don't really think it's that simple or straightforward (except in very rare circumstances like Stalin.) And no, I don't want to stoop to platitudes and bumper stickers. But God has given us the tools we need to know Him and what He wants.
  
  And you are dead on about something else. The concept of eternity is too big to wrap anyone's head around, expect of course God's. I don't claim to understand it, in fact I claim that I don't understand it. I know I can sound like I think I have it all figured out, but the moment I think that I'm on the road to hell more surely than if I'd never become a Christian.
  
  One last corollary, the concept of God is too big to wrap your head around. Most people have a concept of God as larger-than-life super human, not all that different from the Greek gods. And that makes arguments about what is "fair" and "unfair" easy because we can break it down to a level we can understand and hold God (or whatever we think of as "God") accountable to the standards of our particular culture. But can a Being who can literally create stars, can literally create life, can such a Being really be reduced to the level of "super human being?"
  
  And no, a God that big does NOT bring me comfort...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll respond to both you and Thousand Words together.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think that most nonbelievers are ready to accept any irrefutable proof that you have. But that doesn't mean that we are required to be naive and foolish, making it possible for you to assert any and everything as truths.
  
  Even with our faith fine tuned, and hearts willing, you are not given carte blanche to violate our trust with nonsense, asserted as proof.
  
  Spiritual elevation must be another word for willfully ignorant.
  
  NOPE.
  
  Yet the majority of the most uneducated people on earth "understand" your "proof"
  
  What's the difference between spiritually mature and psychotic delusion? It seems that you are suggesting that one become psychotic in order to reach spiritual maturity.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've been thinking about how harsh I was with you when I "introduced" myself and maybe I was too hard. Maybe you're not like atroubledman, who I jousted with for months and yet could almost never get an actual argument out of, just a lot of accusations and gainsaying.
  I hope that is the case.
  Still, my experience with a lot of nonbelievers in forums like this (and that's an important distinction) is that they say they want "irrefutable proof," but are so locked in on needing a "big miracle" that they miss a thousand signals while searching for the sign.
  And they are also usually completely unwilling to subject Christianity to the same patient, thorough investigation that they deride Christians for not giving to science.
  
  If your faith were fine-tuned, no one would need carte blanche to show you proof. But the opposite of carte blanche is not laissez faire. Sometimes people need to be shown what they miss on their own. This is true of all people in all things, not just religion.
  
  But again, my experience with many (especially the most vocal) nonbelievers in these forums is that when confronted with things they don't understand (the presence of faith in this world,) instead of asking "Why do so many people believe?" they say things like:
  
  "Spiritual elevation must be another word for willfully ignorant."
  
  "the majority of the most uneducated people on earth "understand" your "proof"" (This, by the way, is demonstrably untrue simply on the face of it because the "majority of undeducated people on earth" are not Christian, while a great many educated people in America are.)
  
  or (and this is one of my favorites,) "What's the difference between spiritually mature and psychotic delusion? "
  
  I actually read one poster on another forum who wrote that since she couldn't understand why people believed in God, she just decided that they must be undeducated and not very smart, easily lead by whatever teacher came along. Gosh, no arrogance there, eh?
  
  Why does a belief in God axiomatically mean you don't believe science? Why does a belief in science mean you can't believe in God? Why do some people assert tanquam is erant versus that a belief in God is the same as a lack of intelligence, ut est unus sic est ceterus?
  
  What's the hard proof? Where are the studies? The facts and figures?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe he did have an actual argument, and you just dismissed it as accusations.
  
  I came from a devoutly Christian family. I think it would be reasonable to say that I gave the bible and Christianity the same patience as I have any other investigation, as I was saved years before I became a non-believer.
  
  But would you not agree that this is the same mindset that the con man requires.
  
  I personally believe that what you think you are showing me is just not there. It's not that I missed anything.
  
  Of course I wasn't referring to just Christianity, rather people who generally believe in deities. This article is a study on religion and IQ. I am aware that IQ and education are not synonymous, however this gives us a good starting point. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … er-IQ.html
  
  Though she does accurately define many Christians, not all Christians can be blanketed as such.
  
  No. It's not the lack of intelligence, although from casual observation, it appears to be easier to convince someone lacking the ability to discern reality beyond the surface. This, by no means defines all believers.
  
  Most of the people I know profess to believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. And most of them don't seem to have a problem with science. I think it only becomes an issue when politics become involved.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Maybe he did have an actual argument, and you just dismissed it as accusations."
  I'm sure he would dearly love to think so, but no. You've given me more in one paragraph of this post than he did in six months and seven forums of back-and-forth. I would practically beg him for a little backstory or some data (any data!) and he was mute. But he never came more alive than when he could get into a shouting match with almost anyone.
  
  "I came from a devoutly Christian family. I think it would be reasonable to say that I gave the bible and Christianity the same patience as I have any other investigation, as I was saved years before I became a non-believer. "
  Although my father was a Christian, I didn't live with him, I lived with my mother. And my mother's family could be reasonably described as pedantic know-it-alls (I know I sure was one and still have to fight that tendency.) Not religious in any sense of the word. It's a roundabout way of saying that I didn't grow up in the church, and had a supernatural experience that convinced me to become a Chrsitian. I wouldn't have done it otherwise because I was so NOT Christian before my conversion. And to be honest, I really wasn't looking for it or anything like it at the time. So obviously, my story is different from yours. I have talked to other people who claimed to be saved and then became non-believers and I always want to interrogate them, not from some Spanish Inquisition point of view but because I'm dying to know what their experience was and what caused them to change their minds.
  
  "But would you not agree that this is the same mindset that the con man requires."
  I confess to not always being the sharpest tool in the junk heap. I don't really know what you mean by that.
  
  I personally believe that what you think you are showing me is just not there. It's not that I missed anything."
  What I was trying to "show you" is that nonbelievers are hardly immune to the same excesses they accuse believers of. And there are plenty of times when both sides are right.
  
  "Of course I wasn't referring to just Christianity, rather people who generally believe in deities. This article is a study on religion and IQ. I am aware that IQ and education are not synonymous, however this gives us a good starting point. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … er-IQ.html"
  Having read the article, I doubt you'll be surprised that I'm skeptical. For one thing, an atheist in academia coming from an environment where it is well documented that intense pressure is brought to bear on believers to at least shut up if not outright abandon their faith, claiming that since so many academics claim to be atheists is proof that smart people are therefor atheist is both self-congratulatory and self-justifying. It is also well documented that young people entering secular colleges who are believers overwhelmingly come out nonbelievers. You can say that education breeds atheism, but the fact is that they rarely (as in practically never) enter an environment that is indifferent, let alone friendly, to their faith. Hostile professors, discouraging campus life, a natural desire to experiment with freedoms not usually experienced before and indulge appetites that are being fed at almost every turn, these would affect almost anybody. Few human beings would have the strength to stand up to them, especially if their faith was not well-grounded to begin with. And few Americans have examined their faith to the point where they could even hold up a conversation in one of these forums, let alone walk into a hostile environment and remain unchanged after four years.
  In any case, I think the most telling paragraph in the news story was this one:"But Prof Gordon Lynch of Birkbeck College, London, said the study had failed to take into account complicated economic, historical and social factors that explained different IQ and 'faith' levels in countries."
  
  "Though she does accurately define many Christians, not all Christians can be blanketed as such."
  I assume that you're referring to someone ("she") that posted somewhere else and I haven't read.
  
  "No. It's not the lack of intelligence, although from casual observation, it appears to be easier to convince someone lacking the ability to discern reality beyond the surface. This, by no means defines all believers."
  Thank you.
  
  "Most of the people I know profess to believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. And most of them don't seem to have a problem with science. I think it only becomes an issue when politics become involved."
  And THAT...is an entire new discussion!
  
  Although you and I don't seem to agree on much, I at least respect someone who can state the underlying reasons for what they believe and don't simply resort to the same five statements over and over again. Thank you.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your trust cannot be violated if you stay away from religious forums. Atheists always have a crai about what believers say but cannot seem to leave them alone. Get off this forum if you don't want to be preached to.
  
  Matthew 11:25
  
  At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
  
  In other words, often the "wise and learned" are those who are seeking their own truth because of ego. The "uneducated people" receive the truth because they want it and are humble enough to admit they need to learn.
  
  I'm truly sorry that you got hurt when you were a Christian because that is what I'm assuming. You have so much animosity. You make a lot of assumptions. Let go of your mindset that spirituality is tantamount to psychosis. It's baseless and untrue.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah. As if the only delusional believers are on these forums.
  
  What an angry, insulting Christian you are. And just because you can't be honest. I see that you can't help yourself. Hope you get well someday.
  
  And, of course, God is never to be questioned, even if He's really just a collection of Bronze Age goat herders, cleverly disguised as receptacles of divine revelations.
  
  After carefully considering your advice, I've decided that there is no way I could betray my intellect. I want to continue to discern HOW to think, instead of being told WHAT to think. That would make me a sheep.
  
  The "spirituality" that you mentioned in your prior post, certainly sounds like a psychotic delusion.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Irrelevant. If you don't want to come across preaching, then stay away.
  
  Isn't it true, though? Do atheists not complain, like you, to having Christian beliefs shoved down their throats when they approach the believer first? You came to me. It's funny how I can't be "angry" and "insulting" when that it exactly what you are.
  
  I didn't say that God is not to be questioned.
  
  No one is telling you what to think. You have a right to your beliefs.
  
  Whatever.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  HOW to think is extremely important!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You assume that I'm threatened. Not at all.
  
  Your experience? Really? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Your beliefs violate the laws of nature, yet you believe that somehow the opposition would be lacking in belief or proof for their opposing view. Sorry, but that's absurd.
  
  REALITY is not a BELIEF. Some of us just accept reality, while others have a need to invent masters, so that they can grovel.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very defensive not to be threatened.. lol
  
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dear getitrite,
  
  Please ensure that you watch this video below (in two parts) :
  
  This man died, saw hell and heaven and then returned. Have met
  him personally - ALL IS TRUE - 100%
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
  
  Blessings In Truth.....
  
  Elijah
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org
  
  † Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 †
  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
  and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
  descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand where you are coming from, Mcals. Hell probably wasn't a driving force for you, or at least not consciously. But my question be this. If there was no Hell, would you be as willing to "serve God?" I am asking this question genuinely. I would like to know your response.
  
  Because, you see, (in my opinion) without the idea of Hell, what Jesus "did" looses meaning and a lot of strength. If He did die on the cross for the sins of the world, why would it matter if there is no Hell? Sure, one might be able to live a better, peaceful, more "fulfilled" life by following his teachings, but there are other religions that offer the same, to different degrees, so Christianity would not have anymore appeal than any of the other religions that supply peace, a sense of purpose, etc. The whole idea that he even made such a gruesome sacrifice would be deemed unnecessary and probably not true, or as significant as it's made to appear (Jesus may have existed and even died on a cross, but this was a manner that many men died back then, and he said many things that would've been seen a blasphemous back then, so h was going to that cross regardless). The whole "he wasn't found in the tomb, but appeared before men afterward (with different accounts from different gospels)" bit would easily be seen as a manner of making this decent man legendary, as with any story-telling including embellishments, and people believing to be so because our nature of placing people on pedestals and with unreachable standards. (I'm not trying to offend you, this is a what-if scenario)
  
  Christianity looses it's power, it's potency without the idea of Hell. Could that be the reason why the idea was so heavily introduced? To truly spread, not only do you offer peace and love and joy, but the fear of a place that lacks all of those things and that burns like a thousand suns for all eternity, etc, etc. A very VERY affective method to produce followers. Introducing thoughts of being unsatisfied, and/or the necessity of a savior, and with it, a call for "order," unquestionable authority ("All men in power are so because God wants them there" (me paraphrasing a scripture) "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts..."Anyone who says there is no God is a fool and the 'truth' is not in him...") Many scriptures, themes in the bible/religion that hinder important thought processes.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The carrot and stick approach is very effective.
  
  If hell as described by most Christias I've met exists, why was it only invented 2000 years ago? The Hebrew scriptures do not describe such a place. Surely if people were in grave danger going there, God would have told them about it from the very beginning instead of the statements he made to the patriarchs that they would "rest with their fathers".
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong - very wrong - Hell has been around SINCE the removal of lucifer from Heaven, BEFORE Adam was Created (4000 BC) [NB This earth is a PRISON for the exiled evil spirits of the fallen devils] THEY want to get as MANY souls DOWN THERE AS POSSIBLE. More fool you if you let their telepathic lies persuade you of the OPPOSITE of the REAL TRUTH...
  
  Now read on :-
  
  Psalm 9:17 (around 1000 BC in Hebrew)
  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
  
  Deuteronomy 32:22 (around 1470 BC in Hebrew)
  For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
  
  Isaiah 28:15 (around 758 BC in Hebrew)
  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
  
  HERE IS WHY HELL WAS CREATED :
  
  † Matthew 25:41 †
  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  
  † HE IS JESUS THE FINAL JUDGE - AMEN †
  
  STUDY ALL REFERENCES IN DEEP CONTEXT HERE :
  
  http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?se … dsonly=yes
  
  AND HERE IS THE CONCLUSION (AT A TIME IN THE FUTURE AT LEAST [BARE MINIMUM] 1050 YEARS HENCE FROM AD 2102:
  
  Revelation 20:13
  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
  
  THE GOOD NEWS IS HERE BELOW : THERE IS A SOLUTION - AMEN :
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
  SEE FULL SIZE IMAGE ABOVE HERE :
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/Idolatry666.jpg
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only descriptive account of Lucifers fall, was in the book The Divine Comedy, also known as paradise lost by Milton. It's funny how it's taught as God's word, when it was clearly written in ink, on paper. I'd think that if it were "God's word", it would inherently be written on the hearts and minds of all peoples.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This surely is. It's called your CONSCIENCE. How about when you were a kid - did something REAL naughty, hoping NOT to get caught. Powerful adrenalin in your stomach, when even the THOUGHT of being caught occurred.
  
  ANYHOW, here is the Account of the REMOVAL of lucifer and the evil angels (devils) from Heaven down to this planet :
  
  Revelation 12 : 7 - 9
  "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
  
  NOTE : The "WAS" refers to PAST TENSE - BEFORE Adam !!!
  
  Isaiah 14:12
  "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
  
  POINT is, who are YOU going to believe - YOUR SELF, or "THE AUTHORITY" that Wrote The OLDEST History Book on the planet, that took some 4100 years to complete, by PROGRESSIVE and layered Revelation.
  
  In any event, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE by becoming a True Christian?
  
  SURELY, the alternative is TOO DIABOLICAL to even contemplate RISKING. You want to gamble your soul on a bunch of misbegotten atheist notions that hold ZERO evidence in reality?
  
  Then this Word is for EVERYONE, so deceived - > IN FOR A VERY NASTY SHOCK ONE BAD DAY in the future !!!
  
  Psalm 53:1
  The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
  
  Again - HERE'S YOUR ESCAPE ROUTE :-
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did consider engaging with all your arguments, but I know it'll be futile. All I'm going to get is a load of badly translated bible verses and more links to badly constructed websites. Nothing in your posts tells me that you have studied the scriptures yourself, or have made any attempt to question the interpretations you have been spoonfed. I am certain that you would not entertain any historical evidence for the origins of these beliefs in lucifer and hell in the church.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WRONG - Heaven, Earth and Hell are REALITIES. Every Word is 100% TRUE. Just because YOU don't believe this, makes ZERO difference to The ACTUAL Facts of The Matter. Remember, satan's greatest trick (with atheists) is to convince them of the OPPOSITE of the truth. That's the job of this evil, telephathic spirit entity. Why? God allows this in order to discover who is WORTHY of Heaven one fine day in the future. So far, most EVERYONE in this discussion has FAILED the test to date. THIS IS VERY VERY SAD. i am personally sorry. Instead of being so critical, TRY Believing and Watch what happens. God is ONE PRAYER Away - ALL THE TIME, In JESUS' Holy Name - Amen
  
  † Matthew 24:37 †
  "But as the days of Noah were,
  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
  
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was right then.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed you were.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Genesis 1:16
  And God made two great lights;
  the greater light to rule the day,
  and the lesser light to rule the night:
  he made the stars also.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ... Are you using that to prove the Devil's existence?
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely - satan is the WHOLE REASON for the non-stop global nightmare these past 6012 years (minimum).
  
  JESUS, and His Free Offer of Salvation is THE ONLY SOLUTION, By Simple Faith.
  
  Once Understood and Followed, HEAVEN is Guaranteed One Fine Day in the Future.
  
  Your SOUL is TOO IMPORTANT to gamble with in pointless conjecture.
  
  Take the Plunge and Discover The Truth for yourself.
  
  Here's how :-
  
  Just By Faith, PLEASE say the Following Prayer, Believing from your
  heart of hearts, to Meet Christ NOW In His Holy Spirit - Amen
  
  "i Believe that JESUS Christ IS The ONLY Begotten Son Of God.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ was Crucified for MY Sins and the
  Sins of ALL people who WILL Truly Believe In Him.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Resurrected on The Third Day.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Physically Ascended Back to Heaven
  Forty Days AFTER He Rose, Alive From The Dead.
  
  i NOW Ask For His Holy Spirit to Fill me and Forgive me for ALL my
  Sins, past, present and future BECAUSE i Truly REPENT of them.
  
  i Ask for His Holy Blood to be Applied to Cleanse ALL of my Sins.
  
  From NOW on i will Remain a True Believer In JESUS Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour, and will Commune with His Holy Spirit regularly by Faith and Prayer and Through Study of His Most Holy Bible.
  
  i agree to seek out a Full Gospel local church to be Baptized and Born
  Again, and will Honour His Sunday Assemblies at every opportunity.
  
  i renounce ALL the works of The Devil and Turn Away from
  ALL my past sins and Commit my life to The Lord.
  
  i will Trust JESUS In His Father God and be a Faithful Witness of His
  Holy Truth to ALL who have YET to Believe as i do NOW.
  
  i Ask Father, For The Baptism of The Holy Ghost and The Holy Gifts Of
  Thy Perfect Spirit, to be a Wonderful Christian soul ALL the days of my life.
  
  i have NO doubts Now and Know you have Forgiven me and Love me,
  and will NOW Guide me and Lead me as my True Father In Heaven.
  
  Lord JESUS, Hallowed Be Thy Name; Thy Kingdom Come - Amen and Amen"
  
  The Prayer was taken from this link below which is a Revelation Web Portal to ALL Facts Related to God, JESUS, Holy Scripture and Multiple Testimonies & Evidence. - Amen
  
  Please fell free to email anytime for more Encouragment and Truth - Amen
  
  Love and Hope - Elijah
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LoL, dude. I already went that road. No matter how many all caps you use, it doesn't make anything you have to say more convincing. But thanks for telling me how "important" my soul is, even though we're all "bad."
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Feel VERY sorry for you.
  
  We WILL Pray for your soul, HOWEVER, you have NO IDEA what is
  currently at the END of this road you are on.
  
  THE HIGHWAY TO DESTRUCTION.
  
  The Devil HAS your soul RIGHT NOW !!!
  
  End of STORY !!! ! !!!
  
  † Matthew 7:12-14 †
  "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate,
  and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
  and many there be which go in thereat:
  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
  which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
  
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LoL, all of your posts have so many different colors! Pretty!
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A M E N
  
  † 1 Corinthians 2 : 9 †
  "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen,
  nor ear heard, neither have entered into
  the heart of man, the things which God
  hath prepared for them that love him."
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think another factor is the fear of dying. That's why there is the fraudulent claim in Christianity that its followers will have EVERLASTING LIFE. And even though heaven sounds like a place that no modern day person would really like to be for eternity, they have rationalized that it beats being dead. But if they were actually sent to a place like that...a place where there is incessant worship of a psychotic, moody deity, they would want to exercise the option within days...even if the option was permanent death.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, but WHY is the claim of everlasting life fraudulent? These are the kinds of easy accusations I see slung around, but they usually are just circular logic (they are fraudulent because they are stupid, they are stupid because they are fairy tales, they are fairy tales because they are fraudulent, ad infinitum.)
  And why, I need to understand, would someone reject Heaven? Because God is "psychotic, moody and egotistical?" Well, gee Dr. Dawkins, that's swell and all but if God DOES exist and God DID create the world and God DID create human beings, doesn't that mean He actually has the power? Rejection of what we don't understand simply because we don't understand it (or worse, think we do when we don't) is not the same thing actually getting at the truth. It may be a rational, or at least "normal" human reaction to the unknown, it happens with all sorts of things. But if God DOES exist (and He does!) then wouldn't the intelligent thing be to try to find out what he wants and why it's in our best interest?
  
  An "intelligent" response that starts with the rejection of what you don't believe anyway, instead of researching whether it has any basis for merit or not, seems to be the way most people think. I used to be that way too, but now I just don't understand it.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, but a book that predicts the future does not 'hinder' critical thinking.
  
  It means 'this is the answer, look hard for it is true.'
  
  If it hindered people from thinking what they want the post directly above this one would not exist.
  
  And if it said 'There is a possibility there is no God' then God would be lying about His very existence...
  
  How critical of God can you be?
  
  Now He is wrong for telling the truth?
  
  This is exactly why He also states, "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts..."
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Surely you are not saying that God wrote the bible?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll never know how you came to that conclusion.
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How can one infer anything else other than that god must have written the bible in order for you to claim the bible is his lie.
  
  How you can NOT understand how I reached that conclusion just goes to show that you dont even know what you are typing.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll never understand how you missed the sarcasm.
  
  [no sarcasm this time hippy]
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see.
  
  God wrote the bible. Indeed. Of course it was written by people though.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God did write the Bible, He just did it using humans. He didn't override their respective personalities, but He did show them what to write.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I'm sorry, but a book that predicts the future does not 'hinder' critical thinking."
  
  There's a specific reason why I didn't say critical thinking. If you had seen the conversation I was having with Chris Neal, you would've seen that I said that I thought critically when I was Christian. That's not what I meant by thought processes.
  
  I'm talking about those little thoughts that pop up in the back of your mind. The ones that either question God in general OR question why He does things the way that He does. Now, certainly, there are a few examples in the Bible of men questioning God. And no person can be expected to never question God ever in their entire lives. BUT, this is seen to be a negative thing. Such thoughts are often linked to the Devil, especially, but not only, in the more ignorant circles. Thoughts that could essentially, if thought about enough, could make you(not you specifically, but you in general) hate or stop believing in God. After you ask a few questions, you typically get this, ok, now don't question God anymore thing going. Eventually, whenever anything is thrown your way, you have set up this knowledge base in the Bible and how you've come to believe that God works. You will base everything that you believe around this idea that have come to believe to be true, through subjective experiences, and you rule out other, more rational ways of thinking, because the supernatural, cosmically intelligent answer works better with how you perceive the world and what you've subjectively experienced, and you've "accepted" that God is God, and nothing can change that, even if you don't understand everything. But we free thinkers have a problem with the idea that we are expected to serve a God who's actions and very existence are questionable because we don't even know enough bout ourselves or the Universe, yet.
  
  "And if it said 'There is a possibility there is no God' then God would be lying about His very existence..."
  
  You are asserting that the Bible was written by God. You have no proof that it was. You believe it was so BECAUSE it said so, and your subjective experiences line up with it, whether or not you grew up in a Christian home being irrelevant. There is nothing in the BIble really that resonates with me anymore, besides a few good ideas. That's an entirely different conversation.
  
  "How critical of God can you be?"
  Very. Especially the Western idea of God.
  
  "Now He is wrong for telling the truth?"
  I do not believe that "God" wrote the Bible, nor in the Bible being "truth." It is something that you believe makes sense, even if you are uncomfortable with some of the ideas in it (like it's slightly destructive version of self-reflection and some of the things that it says are wrong, that you believe you will have to eventually change in your life, and that the "Holy Spirit" is agreeing with (it's funny how these can be so different for so many people, and yet it's the same Spirit, but I know this is also a different conversation.))
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Think I'd need a new thread for all those seperate points.
  
  Maybe I'll start one?
  
  lol
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a little weird to see yourself get name-checked in a forum!
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To touch on a point aways back in this thread, I wouldn't say that Christianity loses its potency without the threat of Hell at all.
  
  I believe that there is a Hell, but don't particularly dwell on it much. For me, the point is more that God loved the world so much that he sent His only son to save us, and that Jesus loved us so much that he willingly went through all of those hard experiences to set us free from that.
  
  I don't know about other people, but I tend to work harder for the carrot than the stick, and I work hardest of all to help and support the folks I love and care for.
  
  If you have friends that will go through fire and flood and bad hair days for you, don't you want to do good things for those friends too? And how much more if those friends were as good to you as God and Jesus have been...
  
  The potency of Christianity is not the threat of Hell in the slightest. It's that being around good folks makes you want to be a better person yourself, and God and Jesus are two of the best folks that I know....
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My goodness the love just flows from you!
  
  Well said, and excellent perspective.
  
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  well, thanks. I am as I was made to be
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I love your tone. Very calm and smooth, no offense, or at least none that I sensed, which is good. Because I don't say what I say to offend. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant, which is probably my fault for not being clear.
  
  It is clear to me that people are capable of living Christian lives without Hell being their main reason. BUT, it is an unavoidable reason, which was more what I meant. Jesus' crucifixion would be close to meaningless if there was no Hell to be saved from. Otherwise, why would our sins need be forgiven, except to have a joyful and fulfilling life here on Earth, which can be and is found in other religious practices to different degrees? If Hell simply meant being cut off from God and a finite death instead of Eternal life, it still wouldn't have as much sting as Eternal burning, pain, suffering, gnashing of teeth, etc.
  
  Hell gives it all meaning. And I'm sorry to say, but much of the spread of Christendom was due to preaching Hellfire, and even before that, it was a "become a Christian or be killed" type scenario, whether that sounds like a pleasant truth or not. But I digress. Hell is a very effective way to get followers, even if there are people like you who are not SOLELY driven by the fear of Hell, it is still an important component of your belief system.
  
  Referring to something you said later down the road....
  "My experience has been that if people are discussing different beliefs, opinions or viewpoints, the person who needs to descend into name calling and denigration of their counterpoint is usually lacking in belief or proof for their own arguments, and attacks as compensation..."
  
  You may indeed be right, to an extent. However, that also stems from passion, which can be seen coming from the religious and non-religious alike. Some people passionately believe in the idea of Hell. Some people passionately hate the idea of Hell, like myself. Some people passionately hate the people who believe in the idea of Hell that they also hate, along with other components of their belief systems, and with being fed up and too passionate, they do go the name calling route. It's rather childish, actually. But it happens.
  
  "Just because it isn't your path doesn't make it wrong;"
  
  Christianity says that any path other than Christianity's path is wrong. Jesus made that clear when He said that no man come to the "father" but by him.
  
  So, there are people who will also stand up against Christianity and certain viewpoints with anything that hurt society more than help it, thus it being "wrong."
  
  "and the need to batter other people into lockstep with your beliefs doesn't make those beliefs the only right ones...."
  True. But that is essentially the goal of Christianity, or at least mainstream Christianity.
  
  They say in the Bible if you go to a place where you share the message and they don't receive it, to dust off your feet and go on to the next place. A bit arrogant, but, if more Christians practiced this, there would be less disdain for them and their religion.
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  Catherine Kaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think you and I must agree to disagree on whats worse- physical pain of a flamboyant and theatrical nature or being cut off from the source of all that's loving in your world...
  
  For me, Hell has remarkable little to do with it. Hell has never meant a thing to me.It certainly hasn't had a thing to do with my motivation, and that's true of a great majority of the Christians that I know (and that's speaking as a minister's daughter, so I have a fair sampling to work from here)
  
  As for namecalling being a sign of passion, sometimes it is, but it still is a sign that that person has run out of reasons (or "proof" as our friend Jesus was a hippie would say) and is falling back on aggression out of fear and doubt. If you've got reasons, you don't need to attack the other person to express them, or to express your passion on a subject.
  
  For me, life's too short to waste hating someone just because they believe something different than me. Besides, if I'm going to follow Christ's example, hates's a lousy way to do it.
  
  I think part of the problem here is that there's more than one kind of Christian. And unfortunately, the ones with the bad behavior are the ones who get the attention and spoil it for the rest of us.
  
  Historically, some people who call themselves Christians have done bad things with Hell as their motivation. And a lot more Christians haven't
  
  Historically there are some folks calling themselves Christians who try to beat other people into lockstep with their beliefs. And there are a lot more who don't
  
  When we get down to it, being a Christian is supposed to be about following the example of Christ. And Christ didn't force people into lockstep, call names, verbally attack people or even talk much about Hell. He came to save us from the grave, not threaten us with Hell
  
  And there are a lot of Christians who follow that example. We're just not as flamboyant as the folks who call themselves Christians but preach a doctrine of hate and fear
  
  You can call yourself anything- but if you're a Brussel Sprout, calling yourself a Chocolate Sundae doesn't make you one
  
  Pax
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  While I suppose in your circle, there are many who are not driven by fear of Hell, there are JUST as many who are. But I still think we're having a miscommunication. Which is fine. I'm not trying to make you believe what I believe or feel what I feel, think what I think, etc. I'm simply making a point. What you do with it, think about it, even if nothing, is all that matters (or doesn't matter, LoL) essentially.
  
  Most of the modern day Christians believe in Hell. The extent to which they think about it, act on it, does not change it's importance in the religion.
  
  There were some things I enjoyed as a Christian. I don't need those things anymore, but I did at a time. As a "babe" in Christ, Hell was certainly a motivator. But not the ONLY one, just an important one. I knew that I was a "sinner" and that I was not right with God, and that I should accept Him into my life, develop a "relationship" with Him, etc, etc, and it brought me great joy! Hell was on the back burner. BUT, what did it mean, lest I not have a relationship with Him? Why is it important for people to "develop" one with him? It is to have peace, a fulfilling joy, happiness, yadda yadda, BUT, at the end of the day, what is the wages of sin? Death. A second death, people call it. Aka, Hell. And there are people who already have peace happiness, joy, who feel absolutely no need for Christ. So, what would you tell them then? There is no whole in their heart. There is no want. They love life and themselves. But, in Christianity, this is not enough, because, even with all the happiness and satisfaction, supposedly there's still a Hell awaiting them, simply because they do not wish to worship your God. That, miss, is my point.]
  
  "I think you and I must agree to disagree on whats worse- physical pain of a flamboyant and theatrical nature or being cut off from the source of all that's loving in your world..."
  
  I think that's opinion. I wouldn't mind a finite death, actually. Hell fire's a bit much.
  
  "As for namecalling being a sign of passion, sometimes it is, but it still is a sign that that person has run out of reasons (or "proof" as our friend Jesus was a hippie would say) and is falling back on aggression out of fear and doubt. If you've got reasons, you don't need to attack the other person to express them, or to express your passion on a subject."
  
  I'm not disagreeing with you.
  
  "And Christ didn't force people into lockstep, call names, verbally attack people or even talk much about Hell."
  He attacked the Pharisees with words. And He did speak of a fig tree being cast into the fire for not being useful. Harsh.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would also beg to differ that the Christian God is an all-loving source.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Christian God is all loving. (BTW, He is not the "Christian" God, as if there were others.) But one thing He does not do is force us to accept it.
  
  I haven't forgotten your example of why you don't believe in God. The only answer I have for that is that He does exist, I just don't understand why He allows some things. I may never. His ways are not mine, and to try to reduce Him to some kind of super-powered human who therefor should think and act as humans do does a disservice to both God and humans.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very well put.
  
  I just read my thoughts on paper. [well, screen rather]
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Christianity looses (sic) it's power, it's potency without the idea of Hell. Could that be the reason why the idea was so heavily introduced?"
  
  Your question assumes ipso facto that Christianity is a manufactured religion, introduced by men instead of by God. And if it is, then (as it says in the Bible) we're all wasting our time, and I and people like me are the worst-off of everybody, because we've been chasing this untrue thing and telling people about it. So the first thing we need to do is be sure whether hell really exists. If it does, then all philosophical arguments about whether Christianity still has meaning are the same drunk drivers arguing that if that other car hadn't crossed their path they wouldn't have hit them. In a philosophical sense they are absolutely correct but it's an utterly useless and counter-productive argument. If there is no hell, then why are we all wasting our time here? There are so much better things to do.
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peeplesposted 12 years ago
Hell is what we create in our own lives by the choices that we choose. Drama is hell. Those living in jail are living in hell. Those who are always fighting with their spouses are living in hell. The only way to not have hell in your life is to live a life of common sense but even then sometimes we fail.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The first nobel truth:
  Life is suffering
  
  The second nobel truth:
  The origin of suffering is attachment
  
  The third nobel truth:
  The cessation of suffering is attainable
  
  The fourth nobel truth:
  There is a path to the cessation of suffering
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I had a feeling you were buddhist or put into practice the Dharma. My boyfriend is, too.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And sometimes the hell that others create for themselves spill over into neighboring enviroments.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So very true.
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amithak50posted 12 years ago
Thee is nothing like hell or heaven ..you pay your deeds here only .hell and heaven is on earth ..you need not to go anywhere
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ibexgroundposted 12 years ago
If there is a Hell then there is a Heaven. Also could be a separation from God. you are no longer in his grace, which brings up other questions... EG. a child separated from his parents.
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couturepopcafeposted 12 years ago
HELL EXPLAINED BY CHEMISTRY STUDENT
The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry midterm. The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell,then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct......leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God.'
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By a seemingly very easily amused instructor no less..
  
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, when they add those bonus questions, it's just a field day.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yes, you sent my imagination whirring.
  
  Well done.
  
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  Bob Zermopposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hahahahahaha, this totally made my day
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vector7posted 12 years ago
"Congratulations! You have just relegated Thomas Jefferson, Mark Twain, and Thomas Edison to the level of ear-plugged idiots. I'm guessing these guys just never put forth any effort in order to understand reality. What idiots they were. It should have been you, with your uber superior comprehension, who invented the light bulb, and wrote the declaration of independence."

-getitrite

Firstly, I don't recall my mention of any of the three individual's you listed personally.

If you are referencing them in regards to belief in Christ, well lets look at your overly-confident assertion's errors.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson

It seems to me that such a quote is hardly able to be disputed, unless of course you want to look desperate.

A little less bias, and a little more homework might prevent your mistake later.

"I am much less interested in what is called God's word than in God's deeds. All bibles are man-made."

-Thomas Edison

The Atlantic Monthly Vol. 128, No. 4 (October 1921), p. 520

As for Edison, it seems he was one to trust his tools more than written history. I wouldn't necessarily label him an idiot, and did not mention names for that reason [ thanks for your recommendations though ] and it seems as though he certainly believes in God by way of his studies on nature.

No less, this means he was indeed ear-plugged, yet not an idiot. Just for clarification.

And lastly, Twain..

A simple online search will provide all the information needed to validate that it seems he made he reputation based on those that indeed do not follow what Jesus taught, that is, speaking of the hypocrites called wolves in sheeps clothing.

Nevertheless, it seems he did not believe in Christ much, yet he hypocritically went to church as a presbyterian himself.

So in conclusion you have submitted three individual's with completely seperate circumstances as though they held the exact same conclusion.

Jefferson, a self proclaimed Christian by Biblical doctrine.

Edison, a science devout believer in God, and Bible denier.

And Twain, who seemingly rejects the idea of religion and God altogether for humanity's foolish actions sakes.

Bravo getitrite...

Bravo.

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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hell, as Heaven are a state of mind of the individual.
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nonslick50posted 12 years ago
Hell is about a lack of alimony and prenuptial agreements. If both athiests and the God of the Bible exists, then divorce is inevitable.
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rajupb3244posted 12 years ago
You share my website http://onlineglobalsite.blogpsot.com
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farruposted 12 years ago
Yes, I believe Hell
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hvacunitsposted 12 years ago
Yes, his name is Billy and he is my boyfriend from hell LOL.
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Bob Zermopposted 12 years ago
I don't believe in Heaven, Hell or the afterlife generally, though sometimes I think it would be nice to
But I'm happy without it and don't see a reason to change my mind.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  May not be a reason for you, but generally..
  
  death.. comes to mind? lol
  
  Kid/n, kid/n.
  
  Just teasin.
  
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spartucusjonesposted 12 years ago
To answer that question you need to define what hell is. In the original language of the scriptures there is two words that are translated hell. There is the Hebrew word: she'ohl' and the Greek equivalent is hai'des. In different Bible translations theses words can be translated "grave" "hell" or "pit". It is of interest that in the scriptures the word that they translate as "grave" is the same word that is translated into "hell". In the scriptures both righteous and unrighteous individuals are described as going to she'ohl' or hai'des when they die.

So instead of being a eternal place of torment, the scriptures seem to indicate that hell is the common grave of mankind. In that sense we all go to hell when we die. But at Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James version) it clearly states that "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any reward". So when we die we are unaware or unconscious (which also refutes eternal hell fire, because you would know if you where being tormented).

So burning in Hell is not a Biblical teaching. It is a man made religious dogma to exert power over people.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not so sure.. Lot's of fire and eternal wrote in that Bible thing you know.
  
  Unquenchable flame.. etc..
  
  Worm does not die..
  
  Revelation even says verbatim tormented day and night forever....
  
  But if you say so.
  
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Revelation also talks about how death and hell (the Greek word hai'des) delivered up the dead (if those in the hell are doomed to eternal torment would they be delivered up) and it talks about death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire (which would indicate that hell and lake of fire are two separate entities). Revelation is highly symbolic, so it is not necessary meant to be taken literally. But you need to study the whole context of the Bible, and you have to examine the internal harmony of all of the scriptures. Also because the Bible is translated into English it is also helpful to study the original Greek and Hebrew expressions that are used.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, about that.
  
  Don't think anyone I've encountered who is able to read Hebrew and Greek has disagreed with me..
  
  I'm not going to go futher than that, until I'm capable myself.
  
  But I'm pretty certain the english gets the "general" idea across rather efficiently...
  
  I don't think entire doctrines are changed.. Sorry, I study logic and thought processes in humans and can't see it...
  
  Language is a tool the human brain uses in it's thoughts to shape its logic.
  
  I don't think the "general" idea is lost due to translation.
  
  If the translator[s] (multiples means better 'overall' understanding) understood both languages the consensus says that the basic message is the same and with 66 books still agreeing with each other in English I'd say the translation is well enough to say the "correct" idea is communicated accurately.
  
  I'm NOT saying the original language doesn't make it easier, but I can't understand anyone claiming that the English Bible can't get the job done in explaining the point to be understood in any of the text. [the basic idea that is]
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First off even if you where to read the entire Bible in English without knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, logic would still dictate that eternal torment of Hellfire is not a Bible teaching. So you are right the logic is not lost in translation. But unfortunately you haven't provided me with any logic that supports the teaching of hellfire, especially in the context of the entire Bible. If anything much of your rhetoric is supporting my arguments.
  
  But the translation can be a factor. Take the Hebrew word she'ohl which is translated it has hell. That same word is translated as grave and pit. For example in the King James Version, the word She'ol is used 65 times. 31 times it is translated as hell, 31 times it is translated as Grave and three times it is translated pit. But here the thing, it is all the same word. It is interesting that many modern translations now don't translate She'ol as hell, they stick with grave, pit or death. Hai'des is the Greek equivalent and it carries the same meaning as the word She'ol.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Logic would dictate the entire thing is nonsense. If you are going to use logic to examine the bible why would you even get as far as hell?
  
  Let's start with the basics.
  
  Logic dictates there is no such thing as a god.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is where I would disagree. I do have a issue with how religion misrepresents God, but I do feel there is significant evidence that God exists. There are even intelligent scientists out there you support the possibility of "Intelligent design". They generally stop short of calling it God. But there has been notable examples of intelligent scientists who have held prestigious University tenure, that have been ostracized for even suggesting the possibility of Intelligent design. I'm sure more scientists would come out in support of intelligent design if they won't afraid of being ousted from the scientific community.
  
  If you thoroughly study all of the evidence I do feel that an intelligent individual could logically come to the conclusion that intelligent design is at least a possibility.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nonsense. There is no evidence. None. No genuine scientist supports ID.
  
  Funny how selective you guys are.
  
  Now we can throw logic out completely. Even your majik book agrees with me.
  
  There is no evidence to study. Please stop talking to me as though I am an idiot. Thank you.
  
  Wisdom teeth.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that things you are supporting my point. When someone raises even the remote possibility of ID, they are immediately are ridiculed and their qualifications as a legitimate scientists is now questioned.
  
  There is an interesting documentary about this called "No Intelligent Allowed" which actually cites examples of prominent scientists that have lost prestigious teaching post because of suggesting the remote possibility of ID. Also the scientist who suggest possible ID provides evidence in support of their conclusion, where does that don't usually resort to name calling. The documentary is also interesting because Ben Stein interviews Richard Dawkins and actually gets him to admit that ID is a possibility.
  
  But I really don't see how I'm talking to you like an idiot. I respect your right not to believe in God, and I'm not questioning your intelligence in drawing that conclusion. My point is that you shouldn't question my intelligence and treat me like an idiot because I choose to believe in God.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are talking to me like I am an idiot by claiming that there is "evidence" when there is not.
  
  I am not really interesting the the lies in that film - sorry - I have seen it and it is typical of your religion.
  
  If you propose a ridiculous idea - you should expect to be ridiculed. That does not mean the idea is worthy. This is just typical of your religion. Propose nonsense - get ridiculed for proposing nonsense and claim it has some merit because you predicted it would be ridiculed.
  
  Please stop speaking to me as though I am an idiot.
  
  Thank you.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First off I still don't know why you say I am talking to you like you are an idiot. I never said or did imply that you where idiot. I've never question your intelligence because you choose to believe something different from what I believe. Two intelligent people can examine the same evidence and come to two different conclusions. But for whatever reason you want to question my intelligence because I choose to believe something different than you. Who is treating who like an idiot?
  
  Also you said typical of my religion? Do you even know what my religion is? I already made the statement that I have issues with religion and how they portray God. I also have major issues with the hypocrisy of religion. So you are jumping to conclusion about my religious affiliation without even knowing me.
  
  There is a big difference between a belief in God and being religious.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh - sorry - I forgot that none of you believers in god are religious.
  
  (Double laughie and extra talking to me like I am an idiot award)
  
  Evidence? Oh - you mean existence? One of us draws the conclusion that existence is "evidence" of majik - the other one draws the conclusion that existence is evidence of existence.
  
  So - yes - please stop treating me like an idiot.
  
  Thank you.
  
  I never said you were an idiot - I agreed that your statements are ridiculous. This in turn (according to you) "made your point for you."
  
  How odd. This is how your religion goes:
  
  1. Predict people will ridicule you.
  2. Say something ridiculous.
  3. Get ridiculed.
  4. Claim prescience and a valid point.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Reply to my post, and quit chasing loners if you are as you claim.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said I'm not religious. I didn't say that applied to all believers in God. I was referring to myself. You choose to lump me in a group that I'm not a part of.
  
  Both of my parents where (and are atheists) and I was a atheist most of my life. My dad was a Biology teacher. So I was more exposed to atheistic and scientific teachings than what I was religion. At one time I took the same condescending view towards those that disagreed that you did. But just like now our debates barely rarely got into fact. I just took a dismissive view, because if someone believed in creation obviously there points must be invalid.
  
  But I always had issue that the belief of evolution started with the belief that there is no God. Making up your mind and determining the results of the experiment before you even get started violates scientific reasoning. For me it was a study of science and not religion (or the Bible) that lead me to start to believe in God. It wasn't until later that I started reading the Bible, and I did that without any religious affiliation (which is why I don't necessary agree with some of the common dogmas like hellfire).
  
  I don't believe that existence is the evidence. I believe that evidence of design and laws of probability are the evidence. For me it took more faith to believe in evolutionary science and what it did to except the possibility of a creator.
  
  So I stress the fact that I am not religious, and one can believe in God without being religious.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a serious question? I know a lot of people I wouldn't call cooks, but they read cook books. What do you think? If you pick up a Bible you'll catch something?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  yep. I caught it. However I deleted the post as soon as I posted it, but sometimes they don't delete right away. So that post was actually deleted before you even responded to it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Please stop lying at me. Really
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dogmatism at it's best...
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I find you to be... refreshing.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Magnetism isn't magic..
  
  It recognises north polarization and south.. And structure is built accordingly.
  
  But this is just "random chance" right?
  
  That north always lines up in a set of thousands of standard magnets in the same direction?
  
  You know.. magically by random evolutionary chance?
  
  Boy your logic is adding up nicely in explaining that isn't it...
  
  I can't imagine anything designing something that operated by rules.
  
  The rules don't even 'exist' right?
  
  The magnetism is just an effect of super duper universe power that makes stuff 'look' designed.
  
  seriously...
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mmm, not entirely accurate. It's true that "burning in hell" is not an Old Testament teaching, but Jesus did teach that hell is a really horrible place where people will suffer for eternity.
  
  As you said, you need to examine the whole context of the Bible.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did NOT teach that hell is a really horrible place where people would suffer for eternity. And a study of the entire context of the entire Bible makes that perfectly clear.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Revelation and Christ use the words torment...
  
  And eternity.. [or ever, as in unending - says it twice actually back to back.]
  
  How do you erase the meaning of these words with context?
  
  Context shapes meaning, it doesn't reverse words.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll repost my comments concerning Revelation because I already addressed that: Revelation also talks about how death and hell (the Greek word hai'des) delivered up the dead (if those in the hell are doomed to eternal torment would they be delivered up) and it talks about death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire (which would indicate that hell and lake of fire are two separate entities). Revelation is highly symbolic, so it is not necessary meant to be taken literally.
  
  Also sometimes the problems lies with people using certain words interchangeably. I already made reference that Lake of Fire is different from hell (the Greek word Ha'ides). Also people sometimes confused Gehenna as the same of hell. Gehenna refers to the Valley of Hinnom. It was used as a garbage disposal heap (where they would dispose by burning). It was also used as a place to dispose (by burning) of criminals that where not fit of a proper burial. So it is a fitting symbol of eternal destruction (which is different than eternal torment).
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hey spartucusjones,
  
  RE : "Jesus did NOT teach that hell is a really horrible place where people would suffer for eternity. And a study of the entire context of the entire Bible makes that perfectly clear."
  
  WRONG - Please read on and note well :
  
  1. Revelation 19:20
  
  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
  
  2. Revelation 20:10
  
  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
  
  3. Revelation 20:14
  
  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
  
  4. Revelation 20:15
  
  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
  
  5. Revelation 21:8
  
  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  
  In the Light of Point Five, and the FACT of The Second Death (not taught in schools), THE ONLY SOLUTION is to BE Written In The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life.
  
  If you are NOT Written in The Book, the Lake of Fire is YOUR Final Destination.
  
  You cannot say "Oh dear - i NEVER knew". The Gospel of The Lord JESUS Christ is NOT a 'well kept secret' - ON THE VERY CONTRARY...
  
  THIS IS PRECISELY WHY HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE CRUCIFIED !!!
  
  He Proved HIS Case - FULLY. Anything contrary to THIS is INDEED another one of a multitude of deceptions and lies from The Serpent - A LIAR FROM THE VERY BEGINNING....AND A MURDERER !!!
  
  Faith, Belief, Baptism, Church Attendance, Learning, Discipline, Sacrifice are ALL part of Salvation - JESUS Provided The Way, The Truth AND The Life, In HIS OWN BODY, Alive in Heaven NOW - Amen † † †
  
  Anyhow, it's your choice - CHOOSE WISELY - Amen
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
  Love & Hope In The Lord JESUS - ALIVE FOREVERMORE - Alleluia
  
  Elijah
  
  † Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 †
  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
  and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
  descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are a blessing brother.
  
  A sight for sore eyes.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you have read my previous comments I've already addressed these issues. But thanks for helping to strengthen my conviction that eternal torment in hell is not a scriptural teaching.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey spartucus - you MUST be blind or simply REFUSE to read The Gospel Truth.
  
  NOTHING in the above Message supports your false conviction.
  
  Sorry mate - WRONG. The OPPOSITE of what you just wrote IS THE REAL TRUTH...
  
  Read what you wrote AGAIN - and then READ THE MESSAGE ABOVE again.
  
  Wake up - Love you - Alleluia & Amen
  
  Here's a Great Pair of Spiritual Spectacles :-
  
  2 Corinthians 4:4
  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
  
  2 Corinthians 3:14
  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
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  spartucusjonesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've read the entire Bible on repeated occasions, and the context of the entire Bible has lead to my conclusion. Most of your scriptures are from Revelation which is clearly symbolic and you use certain expressions for hell interchangeably (even though the scriptures make clear distinctions).
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know I'm probably wasting my time but about this God of the World:
  
  Compare 2 Cor 4:2-4 with John 12:37-41. In 2 Cor, the God of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving to the gospel lest its light fall upon them. In John, God has blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of the unbelieving lest they might see and understand, as foretold by Isaiah. ???? Let's look again. Jesus says God has blinded the eyes of unbelievers. In 2 Cor, Paul says the God of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers. Bet you've never seen that before. The God of this world is God. Further, if you look up a Greek interlinear, the God in both places in 2 Cor 4 has a capital 'Delta', Theos, that is God, not some false god. Just another example where the bible was deliberately mistranslated to push a doctrine.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Spart & DH - Simple misunderstanding : Isaiah Prophesied about the HARD HEARTED JEWS, John quotes that - Absolutely correct.
  
  Paul, (the Apostle to the GENTILES) is referring to the Gentiles, BECAUSE satan is BLINDING the eyes of the UNBELIEVERS.
  
  The Jews (THEN) were BELIEVERS, expecting The Messiah.
  
  When He Came (The Lord JESUS Christ) the majority REJECTED Him.
  
  This is the difference. God Blinded His Chosen people IN ORDER that they SHOULD exercise Faith and Overcome. Many DID !! The First Christians were ALL Converted Jews.
  
  The gentiles were Adopted, BECAUSE Salvation (In Christ) Appeared for ALL men.
  
  This was some 1950 years ago (Paul's Work By The Holy Spirit).
  
  TODAY, AD 2012, The Church of the Gentiles is GLOBAL - Massive - in every city and every country ON THE ENTIRE PLANET.
  
  The Cross is the SINGLE, Most Famous Spiritual Symbol in ALL of History - Amen.
  
  The Jewish church is STILL small, by comparison however - SIMPLY because the Hebrews are a minority tribe AND because of God's Master Plan - ALTHOUGH multitudes of Hebrew bloodline souls ARE also Born Again (AKA Messianic Jews) and growing fast this Last Day.
  
  Hope this helps explain the Truth a little better.
  
  BOTTOM LINE : YOUR souls ARE Precious to Christ.
  
  Don't pass up the opportunity to REJECT satan's slippery lies and deceit.
  
  Here's how for YOU guys :-
  
  TAKE THE PLUNGE In JESUS' Holy Name - Amen
  
  Just By Faith, PLEASE say the Following Prayer, Believing from your
  heart of hearts, to Meet Christ NOW In His Holy Spirit - Amen
  
  "i Believe that JESUS Christ IS The ONLY Begotten Son Of God.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ was Crucified for MY Sins and the
  Sins of ALL people who WILL Truly Believe In Him.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Resurrected on The Third Day.
  
  i Believe that JESUS Christ Physically Ascended Back to Heaven
  Forty Days AFTER He Rose, Alive From The Dead.
  
  i NOW Ask For His Holy Spirit to Fill me and Forgive me for ALL my
  Sins, past, present and future BECAUSE i Truly REPENT of them.
  
  i Ask for His Holy Blood to be Applied to Cleanse ALL of my Sins.
  
  From NOW on i will Remain a True Believer In JESUS Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour, and will Commune with His Holy Spirit regularly by Faith and Prayer and Through Study of His Most Holy Bible.
  
  i agree to seek out a Full Gospel local church to be Baptized and Born
  Again, and will Honour His Sunday Assemblies at every opportunity.
  
  i renounce ALL the works of The Devil and Turn Away from
  ALL my past sins and Commit my life to The Lord.
  
  i will Trust JESUS In His Father God and be a Faithful Witness of His
  Holy Truth to ALL who have YET to Believe as i do NOW.
  
  i Ask Father, For The Baptism of The Holy Ghost and The Holy Gifts Of
  Thy Perfect Spirit, to be a Wonderful Christian soul ALL the days of my life.
  
  i have NO doubts Now and Know you have Forgiven me and Love me,
  and will NOW Guide me and Lead me as my True Father In Heaven.
  
  Lord JESUS, Hallowed Be Thy Name; Thy Kingdom Come - Amen and Amen"
  
  The Prayer was taken from this link below which is a Revelation Web Portal to ALL Facts Related to God, JESUS, Holy Scripture and Multiple Testimonies & Evidence. - Amen
  
  Please fell free to email anytime for more Encouragment and Truth - Amen
  
  † Acts 2:38 †
  Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you
  in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
  and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org/TheSimple … fFaith.htm
  
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So God blinded the eyes so the unbelieving wouldn't see.
  So Satan blinded the eyes so the unbelieving wouldn't see.
  
  Yeah that's logical. Not.
  
  However, you have ignored the fact that Paul said in 2 Corinthians that God is blinding the eyes of the unbelieving. We know this because he said 'Theos' twice in the verse both capitalised.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're STILL missing the Point : NAMELY, The Vast difference between The Hebrew Jews and the "rest of the world" Gentiles - IN CONTEXT.
  
  When you "GET" this Point, ALL will suddenly become VERY Clear.
  
  The BEST place to Start is THE BEGINNING :
  
  AFTER the Flood - AFTER all the NEW languages were GIVEN, The Holy Spirit SEARCHED for someone He could WORK with.
  
  ONLY Abram was Located. He was THEN Tried and Tested, for the New Season (around 1970 BC approx).
  
  Once "The Test" was COMPLETED, God Worked MIRACLES and Isaac and then Jacob were born, followed by the OTHER TWELVE.
  
  From this HEBREW SPEAKING family, the whole NEW Tribe gushed forth.
  
  They went INTO slavery in Egypt for some 430 years (approx), until THEIR PRAYERS were Answered through MOSES...
  
  The Rest is His-Story, so to speak.
  
  Finally, 1491 years AFTER Moses' days, God Visited this earth AS THE MAN - Christ JESUS The Lord, some 2012 years ago.
  
  THE POINT ???
  
  The WHOLE PLANET was given over to IDOLATRY.
  
  God HATES & DESPISES idolatry !!!
  
  WHY? Because the ORIGINAL IDOL was Lucifer !!!!!!
  
  Now known as satan, The Devil, The Dragon, THE prince of DARKNESS,
  the AUTHOR of SIN and "IT" is NOT down in the Bottomless Pit YET !!!
  
  This WILL happen however - In JESUS' Holy Name - Amen
  
  This THEN Coincides with THE SECOND COMING, Followed By 1000 years of PERFECTION on this earth for ALL THE SAINTS throughout history UNDER the Leader - Lordship Of The Resurrected KING.
  
  The conclusion is SIMPLE...
  
  Do YOU want to be on the losing team OR The Winning Side ???????
  
  You DO HAVE the Choice.....
  
  CHOOSE WISELY - Amen & Amen
  
  † Genesis 12:7 †
  "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
  
  † Genesis 17 : 1-8 †
  "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
  
  READ THE ENTIRE FACTUAL HISTORICAL ACCOUNT HERE :
  
  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV
  
  FINALLY :-
  
  † John 8:58 †
  "Jesus said unto them,
  Verily, verily, I say unto you,
  Before Abraham was, I am."
  
  † Galatians 2:8 † [Words of The Apostle Paul] :-
  "(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to
  the apostleship of the circumcision,
  the same was mighty in
  me toward the Gentiles)"
  
  BEHOLD - THE REAL CITY OF SODOM
  [A "TYPE" OF GOD'S JUDGMENT ON SIN -
  REGARDING HELL] :-
  
  See above Picture FULL SIZE HERE :
  
  http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/S-WordOfTheLord.jpg
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is obvious that you merely blindly follow doctrine and have not studied for yourself. You follow a church definition of Satan and have not searched his/its origins and evolution.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  IE VERSION :
  
  http://www.constellation7.org/Constella … -SEVEN.HTM
  
  ALL OTHER WEB BROWSERS :
  
  http://www.constellation7.org/Constella … -SEVEN.HTM
  
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Claire Evansposted 12 years ago
Hell most certainly exists. I know it's spiritual torment at the very least.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know Claire?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure why you would want to know. Aren't I deluded?
  
  There have been atheists would have had Near Death Experiences about hell. They didn't feel the flames of hell. They described it the most desolate place. There was no hope. The incredible fear of experiencing demons by far exceeds any physical pain. There was an atheist who actually converted to Christianity on the spot when he survived his NDE.
  
  One said demons told him that there was no God. Being an atheist that should not have frightened him but it did. My mother experienced fits when she was terribly sick. There were these demons who said to her, "There is no Jesus here". The same feeling of dread and fear came over her, too.
  
  Hell is the complete separation from God. God is in the world and so hell is not this world. When the Holy Spirit goes, hell will exist on earth. Jesus descended into hell because God have forsaken Him because of sins that He bore.
  
  I suffered from night terrors for years. Most insist it's a medical condition. However, there seems to be a link between night terrors and demonic activity. I am intrigued to learn how many people have night terrors when there homes are haunted, for example.
  
  To cut a long story short, back in 2006, it got to the stage where I could take them no more. Death was better. No amount of physical pain could rival having them every night at its worse for the rest of my life. I didn't have it that bad, though. Bad enough. I thought my priest uncle could help. Before he came, I was lying on my bed in terrible distress. I was writhing around in absolute panic. I've never had an experience like that to this day. He blessed the room and it went away for a week. After that they came back worse. It parallels people who report hauntings that intensify after a blessing or the more fearful they get.
  
  I eventually was prescribed something from my psychiatrist. It was a sedative that made me sleep immediately. It broke the cycle of fear and the night terrors eventually went away.
  
  So I've experienced real evil. It pains me to see the world led astray because they don't want to confront evil. Suffering comes at hands of the powerful, who aren't even human. Because they aren't human, they feel nothing inflicting such evil on humankind.
  
  I don't think anyone can fault my passion, insane or not. My faith in Jesus has given me so much joy and comfort and strength. At the same time, my hatred of evil makes me tirelessly attempt to blow it's cover. That is what keeps me going even though I get mocked.
  
  I think people should just clear their slates and start going where the evidence leads them without any preconceived ideas. After all, our ideas are programmed into our heads from very young.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, you get medication that makes your problems go away, and then you ignore it. Insist your night terrors were real in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary.
  
  Have you talked to your psychiatrist about this paranoia? There's medicine for this too Claire. There is a reason this behavior is labeled abnormal.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know.. I wouldn't be so bothered by your accusations if I thought there was a reason for it.
  
  People have been saying there is more to life than meets the eye for a long, long time..
  
  And it means that if all you can believe is there is what your eyes can see, then you just haven't run into the right experience yet.
  
  Quit being shallow and calling her abnormal.
  
  Abnormal is Adolf Hitler. Abnormal is thinking you are the only thing in reality that exists, and that you are as high as greatness gets as a human being.
  
  Abnormal is consistently ridiculing Claire for her experiences when she is not the only person in the world who has had them. The list is quite astonishingly long, and they aren't all liars or crazy.
  
  You think there is nothing beyond physical? REALLY?
  
  I think THAT is abnormal.
  
  I still love you Emile, and you can be a good convo, but you should really consider taking up a less demeaning attitude to ideas you 'personally' can't touch or verify.
  
  She is a very intelligent, and very insightful person with a passion to do good.. And she isn't crazy just because she can't hand over your demands of proof on a silver platter in the sequence you request it.
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Vector! I think it's rather abnormal to feel the need to converse with a disturbed person.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Would it be an act of love to ignore delusions born of desperation?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
  I love you Emile..
  
  She isn't desperate.
  
  There are other people collecting all the info.
  
  What she does is nothing short of reporting what people dislike hearing that is actually happening.
  
  They really do go to a "lilith the owl" worship and they really do all the rest of what she posts.
  
  There is proof of it.
  
  Desperate is denying the revealed info.
  
  Muah!
  
  My little fairy buddy.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a sprite. Thank you very much.
  
  And, I don't doubt people worship stuff. It doesn't make it real. I've played with Oujia boards. I wasn't looking for Satan. It's entertainment.
  
  Haven't you ever thought it was odd, on the mountain with the burning bush? Moses asks God his name and he answers 'I AM'. What do you think that means Vector?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OH, is that what you are?! I've actually quite curious about that.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Thank you very much."
  
  lol
  
  Emile is so cute.
  
  I can't even get mad at her anymore..
  
  ::sigh::
  
  Speaking of.. I could go for a sprite right now.
  
  Best soda ever.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Speaking of which, I'd like to actually read the Bible's directly translated from the hebrew and greek, and to actually meet well educated Jews in person to further understand some of these ideas that I believed when I was a Christian"
  
  I highly recommend this. Buy a Bible in Greek and English (I did!) and take advantage of the internet to ask questions. I have found Yahoo Answers to be not bad if you have a specific question. You might get some jerks, but if you specify that your question is for Jews and you are genuinely interested, they have big hearts and are quite willing to share.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I AM" means that He is, and all the other "gods" being worshipped are not.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, yeah I'll re-state what he said.
  
  Because it's pretty much what I was about to post.
  
  "To be" which means all that matters, and all other gods are nothing.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe to you and maybe it is the same for them, one must never point out the short comings of others, if they are not willing to see it as the same likewise.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's the way I read it too. Which means that the assertion that Satan exists and is the god of this world is no different from ancient man worshiping Bal. Figments of imaginations.
  
  If God exists, there is only one. So, attempts to conjure up a god named Satan, in order to fight him, are ridiculous.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed Emile. Jews do not believe in another god/spirt/entity that is an arch fiend in opposition to God aka Satan. The myth surrounding Satan is a set of embellishments applied by the church based on first century superstition. To the Jew satan is an agent of God under his authority that opposes man or accuses him before God. Satan is also understood to be a general attitude of rebellion to God within mankind.
  
  I see no reason to depart from the jewish wisdom on this matter. That is Satan as taught by fundamentalists simply does not exist.
  
  The fact that demons and hell do not exist in the old testament should cause the Church to question its beliefs and search for the origins of those beliefs. Unfortunatly, they do not appear motivated to do so.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's easier to be spoon-fed though, than do one's own research. Speaking of which, I'd like to actually read the Bible's directly translated from the hebrew and greek, and to actually meet well educated Jews in person to further understand some of these ideas that I believed when I was a Christian. This is all very interesting. I found the hub a couple of months ago called "Why Jews don't believe in Jesus" to be very informative.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A lot of mainstream Christians today, when compared to the Jews, remind me of teens who think they know better than their parents on things that they [the parent] are very well-learned in and who actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND the history, culture, etc. I'm still not interested in the religion, but a better understanding of it is necessary, at least for me.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately that doesn't hold true for the entire Jewish faith. I read an article, a year or two ago, about a rabbinical court in Israel. They were all up in arms at a dog that had bothered one of the rabbis. They decided he was the reincarnation of a lawyer that had given the rabbi grief while alive. They sentenced the dog to death.
  
  There are crazy people in every faith.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But the Accuser, satan, DOES appear in the New Testament. No, he's not some satyr in red tights, but he does "tempt" Jesus and Jesus does talk about seeing him thrown out of Heaven (Luke 10:18.) If you call yourself a Christian (and I don't know if you do or not,) then you should not ignore references to satan in the NT. If you only want to pay attention to the OT, you should be Jewish.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "if you look up a Greek interlinear, the God in 2 Cor has a capital 'Delta', Theos, that is God, not some false god. Just another example where the bible was deliberately mistranslated to push a doctrine."
  
  I did look up online and you're right, it is Theo. I'm a little hesitant to ascribe such ulterior motives, but it does bear further exploration.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Refering to satan as the "god of this world" is in no way meant to equate him with God. Satan was an angel of God, and when he was thrown out of Heaven (Luke 10:18) he set up residence on Earth. Because the heart is desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) and men do evil constantly, satan becomes the "god of this world." God is still God, though, and nothing will ever change that.
  
  I know I don't normally throw verses at you like that, but I felt this time that a little research was called for.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan's role is as an agent working under God's authority to test Israel. It is no surprise therefore that he should test Jesus, in order to demonstrate his perfection. Satan is also used metaphorically to refer to a general attitude of rebellion in man.
  
  Demons and the church's Satan did not exist in the OT and therefore as the OT was the only set of scriptures around 2000 years ago, anyone who believed in demons and an arch fiend of God had unbiblical bliefs.
  
  Now as to the God of this world compare 2 Cor 4:2-4 with John 12:37-41. In 2 Cor, the God of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving to the gospel. In John, God has blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of the unbelieving as foretold by Isaiah. ???? Let's look again. Jesus says God has blinded the eyes of unbelievers. In 2 Cor, Paul says the God of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers. Bet you've never seen that before. The God of this world is God. Further, if you look up a Greek interlinear, the God in 2 Cor has a capital 'Delta', Theos, that is God, not some false god. Just another example where the bible was deliberately mistranslated to push a doctrine.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok we're all wrong. There IS a worldwide conspiracy headed up by Satan. Satan is at the head of every global company, organisation, the United Nations, Disneyland, and he lives under your bed along with the communists.
  
  I'm am now thus convinced and will say nothing more on this thread.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let's put this into perspective. I think Claire attempts to create evil. It doesn't exist, in the manner she purports; she is attempting to manifest her own brand. In order to raise herself up in the eyes of God. It is a sickness that pervades a large percentage of the population within the fundamental and Bible thumping community.
  
  I worry about you guys and I do, truly, hope you get better.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No she's not.
  
  At no point in history [until now maybe?] has good nor evil been denied as existent and real.
  
  Thanks for caring about me. I hope everything goes good for you too.
  
  It takes courage to do what she does, and she is a strong person.
  
  I'm sure God loves her very much, just as He loves you as well.
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm afraid she is. The only point in discussing the concepts of good and evil is to come to a better understanding. Devolving into childish and paranoid rants about Satan is pointless. I realize that many so called Christians think being laughed at equates to being hated which means they are being Christ like; but that's just not so.
  
  You guys cannot create evil, no matter how much you'd like to. You guys can't conjure up Satan, no matter how hard you try. Just because you want it, will never make it so.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We believe the Bible. We, along with millions of other Christians who are loyal to Christ Jesus, see the exact same thing.
  
  We are not paranoid, childish, nor ranting.
  
  We are Biblical and devoted to God, and we do what He says do.
  
  And I don't need to be told what being laughed at is or isn't.
  
  I have a Bible, and I have Christ. And I have understanding.
  
  And I did not, and cannot, create something that has been there througout ALL of history.
  
  And if she is by your vote, then you can call me the same - and the millions who stand with us in service to Christ Jesus. [they sound just like me and Claire, and a good number of others here - this site is not an accurate representation of the devoted children of God in the least - there is a group of people with one voice and they never disagree who serve God].
  
  Killing is evil - I don't want it. I can't stop them, so how did I make them?
  
  I don't need to try to create anything. No one could make it go away if they wanted.
  
  The Bible is clear. That makes it so.
  
  Not to you, but that's to be expected isn't it?
  
  You aren't us...
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well gee vector. That pretty much qualifies as a rant in my book, but it is subjective so....whatever.
  
  But, no. You are not one of millions. Heck, just look at Hub Pages. What are there? Three, maybe four of you going on insanely about this imaginary evil being? Most Christians don't rant on like that. Primarily because they must not think like you and Claire. They don't chime in because, maybe they don't agree with you?
  
  I get that you guys want to be soldiers of Christ. But inventing imaginary armies to fight against might not have been what the church meant when they coined the phrase.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hubpages Emile?? LOL
  
  Come on...
  
  You just compared this website to the entire planet.
  
  I didn't start this Christianity thing ten minutes ago.
  
  I love you little 'sprite' buddy.
  
  You keep fighting the 'insane people'...
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you miss the point, or ignore it? I didn't say there were only thee Christians in the world. I said there were only three or four Christians on Hub Pages ranting about Satan and conspiracy theories. Most Christians here appear to be well adjusted and level headed.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, well.. ::ahem::
  
  Thanks for saying I'm not? I guess.. [really?]
  
  But uh, I've been doing pretty good at staying kind I think - think that's pretty "level"?
  
  I don't get your finger pointing about people telling what Christ taught. [or even posting their thoughts like you do?...]
  
  I'm not "ranting" [Though I may have here or there]
  
  How about just consider not being the judge on who is what and stick to topic?
  
  If you don't like our posts and/or threads don't participate.
  
  You aren't the only one with a brain, thoughts, opinions, feelings, or rights sweety.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I, too, feel very touched that Emile cares and loves me so much.
  
  Thanks, Vector, for your kind words.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Think nothing of it. It's who I am.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're welcome.
  
  Jesus done it.
  
  He showed me some things about you.
  
  And He said He's watching always. He emphasized always.
  
  And Matthew 5:10-12. He said it's your verse....
  
  Mine's John 7:7
  
  He said your verse is your sheild. [ everyone's is different ]
  
  I wouldn't slow down like I did long ago.. you have a gift.
  
  You are a very powerful voice for Him...
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks very much, Vector! It's wonderful to have some encouragement for a change. Peace be with you!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't have to thank me.
  
  You know who to thank.
  
  Peace be with you as well sister.
  
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen Vector - VERY WELL written...
  
  Glory To God ALIVE - Alleluia...
  
  Psalm 82 : 3-4
  "Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand
  of the wicked."
  
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brodielarshposted 12 years ago
I don't believe in anything that has zero evidence to back it up.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Me either!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
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mischeviousmeposted 12 years ago
What is hell, but an undesirsable state of being?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  While it is true that there are situations so horrible that they could euphamistically be described as "hell" ("hell on earth," "hell in their mind." "hell of their own making," etc.,) the literal hell is such a horrible place that very few situations warrant the comparison. Athousandwords once described to me a situation which I would use the comparison for, it was undeniably horrible. People who are simply unpleasant are not necessarily the same as "hell." I think the comparison is overused.
  Jesus did talk about hell, more than Heaven. So we know that there is a literal hell and it's a place of eternal torment, quite literally.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Litterary and litteral can carry 2 different meanings...
  
  I simply can't believe in something, that warrants so little of my attention. Especially if that something is the rantings of a 2000 year dead Quasi-semite and the only evidence we have that person ever existed, is the writings of people that live 50-100 years after the fact.
  
  So, hell to me is nothing more than a concept, outdated and oversold
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "cough, cough" What?
  
  What in hell is a Quasi-semite?
  
  You do know that there is more evidence than the writings of people who lived 50-100 years "after the fact." In point of fact, anyone who is at all honest about it admits that the writers of the Gospels lived during Jesus' actual lifetime and saw Him face to face. The debate about whether they were writing fact or not is more heated, but honest critics, both pro and con, don't give that much lattitude on the lifetimes of the writers. And there's more evidence He existed.
  
  Yes, literary and literal do carry two different meanings. That literally is the reason I used the word "literal" instead of "literary." Even though many tend to give it a literary interpretation.
  
  And hey, karma warrants almost no attention from me, yet if you're right and I'm wrong, who's going to suffer? Not a good reason for rejecting something. My electric bill warrants little attention as well, but it's still important.
  
  Are those really the only reasons you don't believe in hell?
  
  And yeah, I don't ever use four-letter words, so it was very deliberate. C.S. Lewis is my template...
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not saying it isn't right for you, I am saying however, that it is a concept that you can apply only to yourself. I have no fear of hell, only a healthy respect for that which I am, another person at the the mercy of mortality. I don't fear hell, because I don't believe it applly's to those on a different path.
  
  If hell is a literal place, than it is only reasonable for me to assume, that hell is a place in the mind. We create our own demons and we are very much our own devils...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I once had this discussion with a relative of mine who was unable to understand how I became a Christian. I would point out that the Bible says this, or Jesus said that. They would repeatedly come back at me by saying, "That's true for you." I will tell you the same thing I told them.
  
  No, it's not.
  
  If it's true for me, it's true for everybody, and if it's not true for everybody then it's true for nobody, even me. I'm not special. I don't think people need to believe what I believe because I believe it. Jesus made certain very specific, and very exclusive, claims. Either He exists, and we need to take Him seriously, or he was just some nutty carpenter who died two thousand years ago and I'm in worse shape than you and all my family combined. There is no "other path." Either Christianity is true or it is false. If it's true then it's true for everybody whether they "choose a different path" or not.
  And if it is true then it is not reasonable to assume that hell is a place in the mind. Yes, there is a great deal of truth to the idea that we are very much our own devils, Christianity does not abdicate personal responsibility, in fact it magnifies it. But if it is true (and it is,) then hell is a literal place where we will go when we die if we don't follow Jesus.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Double the vote on that note.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. You worship a sadistic arsehole.
  
  Why?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What is that thing anyway hippy?
  
  It cracks me up! lol
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Wow. You worship a sadistic *expletive deleted."
  
  You're far from the first person to make that remark. Even some Christians will say things like, "I prefer MY Jesus, He's nicer!" (As if there were more than one Jesus...)
  In a slightly offhand way, you actually illustrated the very point you were commenting on. You seem (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,) to have chosen (and for whatever reason, I'm not judging your motives, simply commenting on your actions in relation to mine,) to believe that Christianity is false. And that's your choice. But if it's not, then calling God names is kind of pointless.
  
  I wrote this elsewhere in this forum. I think it probably explains "Why?" as well as anything else:
  One last corollary, the concept of God is too big to wrap your head around. Most people have a concept of God as larger-than-life super human, not all that different from the Greek gods. And that makes arguments about what is "fair" and "unfair" easy because we can break it down to a level we can understand and hold God (or whatever we think of as "God") accountable to the standards of our particular culture. But can a Being who can literally create stars, can literally create life, can such a Being really be reduced to the level of "super human being?"
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  CJ Sledgehammerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  J.W.A.H.:
  
  I caution you my irreverent friend. Your good buddy Earnest and I had a spirited discussion about his irreverence toward God. Earnest was too foolish and would not listen. He was dead 30 days later. Do you think he's laughing now, funny man?!
  
  Earnest died trying to be your hero. He died trying to appease the moral reprobates of this world. It's guys like you that encouraged him along the path toward his destruction. Shall I put you on notice as I did him?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can put me on notice sweetie pie. I would love it if you would stop hiding behind a fake name and - even better - come do it in person. You get the double laughie.
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You already done that, sweetie pie.
  
  And europe is soo not my taste.
  
  You extravagant people are so far out of my poor little league..
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  kirstenblogposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is disgusting! Earnest did not die because of you, ego much? He died because he was ill, not something that happened because of some talk with you. I find this post beyond the pale, you make me sick!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why should he make you sick?
  Most probably he is a sick person and needs treatment, no person in his right mind will claim such things. Either he is mentally ill or he is really an idiot.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ya, I reported him. It was such an ignorant thing to say. There are people in plenty of countries who live way longer than people here who do not give a rat's ass about Christianity and their God.
  
  The sad thing, though, is that I used to say the same thing, and knew many people who felt the same way.
  
  I am no longer a Christian, but to me, he sounds like the friends of Job who were shushed by "God" even because of their ignorance (making similar claims as this).
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, to all of you who are so "sick"..
  
  I've been puking longer because of you.
  
  I cried when I found out he passed because I care, but it doesn't mean I don't agree.
  
  Hell is real, and because you deny it makes it no less real.
  
  If you can look at a "universe", consider the word and the immense complexity in it and still be a foul mouth, and disrespectful person to God because you can't 'comprehend' design well I'm not so sure everyone here isn't upset simply because they believe the same and we teach what the Bible says irregardless of your personal desire to shut us up or change the teaching and "erase" Hell from God's book.
  
  The contradictions of the book aren't contradictions, for if two men write two accounts of the same event and one says one woman stood by the man and another says two during the concert, well apparently one of the women walked away a minute before the second writer looked, but YOU call EVERYONE liars.. [which I think is absolutely silly]
  
  AND you what? Expect the Bible to be full of sinless people? Perfect examples, when the Bible SAYS that EVERY man has sin within his heart and needs Christ? Is THAT your silly expectation and THAT means God didn't inspire those men? Yeah... ok...
  
  And I won't even begin on ignorance as I'm sure it won't help if the point I make is true as if the person is well, yeah, you get the point now.
  
  Report - resmort.. How 'noble' of you to 'report' him.
  
  Well you told the world and you sure told him didn't you!
  
  YET, if you ACTUALLY BELIEVED what you said and thought he was ignorant then you wouldn't seek punishment because that is EXACTLY why God forgives us through Christ, because we were first ignorant - but I understand that you 'don't' understand this concept. After all, it is something God taught me, and you don't believe in Him. [I'm not surprized] (this isn't to 'one' person if no one got the four from adding the twos)
  
  I'll tell you right now that my words are CERTAINLY not out of ignorance, and you make me sick too.. immensely. But have I went around telling you every time and 'reported' you? No. But I guess this time I just figured since you WISH PUNISHMENT on someone you should know that is SO loving of you and SUCH an OPPOSITE approach to us teaching Hell exists.. right? [as if we told someone to go there vs what we ACTUALLY say..]
  
  You sitting on that four legged, bit in mouth horse seems to fill the pride cup to overflowing, and anyone who says the same in general terms.
  
  Which also doesn't surprize me considering you know the scriptures and still don't follow the most humble King of kings...
  
  Matthew 18:3
  
  Go on, tell me how it is, oh, and hit that little 'report' link down there too.
  
  I'm about as worried about your tattle-tail appraoch to life as I am the entire world of nay-sayers claiming God and Hell don't exist.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Should we bring you up on murder charges? Welding your invisible friend poisons people?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah, go on take that one to court.
  
  He said the Bible is true and that God is real and told him he should consider not being ugly to God...
  
  Christ is invisible now? Yet the entire planet knows Him. How odd.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is why your vile beliefs are despicable. The belief that everyone who doesn't share your delusion will be punished for eternity, shows a lack of intellect, compassion, justice...In fact your archaic worldview is evil beyond comprehension.
  
  Where the h@#$ is your humanity dude?! YOU HAVE NONE!!! All you have is irrational fear of your imaginary EVIL GOD.
  
  You don't worship any benevolent, deity, you worship at the alter of EVIL...PURE EVIL!
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But they say our hearts are hardened!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christ said that sweety..
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't call me sweetie. I'm certain that you aren't significantly older than I am. Also, Jesus has no authority over my life. But the Christians in this forum like to say how "hardened" our hearts are, but they can't seem to see their own need for a hammer and chisel.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Don't call me sweetie. I'm certain that you aren't significantly older than I am. Also, Jesus has no authority over my life."
  
  Well, I don't need to be 'significantly older' to try to be kind do I? I've called many women much older than you that to be kind, and apparently it isn't required for me to be 90 for them to get the point.
  
  But as you wish.
  
  And I'm not going to say anything except Christians are followers of Christ, so of course they are going to repeat what Christ [and the entire Bible] teaches.
  
  And these are His words not mine:
  
  Luke 19:27
  
  And I know exactly what I need. What do you think 'needing' Christ means?
  
  I'm not perfect.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are plenty of people who are kind without Jesus or the HS, etc. That's simply something to hide behind. Learning how to deal with oneself without a God or reward or pat on the back certainly says more about a person and genuineness. Kindness is found in all sorts of people. The fact that you don't seem to be able to show compassion is because of the nature of your belief system, because of whatever situations affected you in life, for other reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that you are a "fallen sinner." There is nothing "wrong" with you. You simply lack compassion.
  
  That's one of the reasons I left Christianity. Or, rather it's one of the reasons why I can't go back. I could actually see myself losing compassion, but I thought it alright if it meant I was getting closer to Christ and seeking holiness further, and the "truth," etc.
  
  I believe that this lack grows significantly the more indoctrinated a person becomes, who loses sight of the simpler, softer side of spirituality. A side that certainly would not lead anyone to the belief in a place of Eternal Torment for the people on this planet (true compassion and empathy could not). And it certainly wouldn't teach people that they are depraved creatures by nature. We are all creatures just as important (or unimportant) as the next. We all have life. And we are no more special than another. Nor depraved. Just for existing and acting as our nature allows? What kind of "truth" is that?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Take it up with God, I didn't write the scriptures.
  
  If you don't want the gift Christ gave, fine.
  
  But I'm not who you are going to have to deal with.
  
  And your accusations Christ Jesus is evil are silly.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since your GOD is imaginary, and since imaginary beings can say nothing, it would be psychotic to take anything up with God...now wouldn't it? Since you believe that you are the proxy of an imaginary being, you are the only REAL entity in the whole exchange. Therefore it is YOU who I should take this up with.
  
  GIFT?!!! How silly!
  
  Where in the h#$@ is your God now, Vector?!!! HuH?!!! Where is HE? HuH?!
  
  Since I am not a PSYCHOPATH, the only LOGICAL conclusion is that any deity who created EVERYTHING, and chose to create a place of everlasting suffering is EVIL BEYOND COMPREHENSION.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I just reported you because that was completely inappropriate. Also, there are people who have been "irreverent" much longer than Earnest who are alive and kicking, so you can throw your disgusting theory out the window. That was completely disrespectful.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, how dare he say the Bible is true!
  
  Wowzerz, that is nothing like what the prophets did now is it?
  
  Oh yeah, Jesus said people hated them too. My bad.. Oh yeah, and that everyone would hate us.
  
  We make you sick you say? Yes, it looks as if Christ, again, has spoken words proven true.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi vector. I understood sledgehammer's words to mean ernest died because he disagreed with him. Not because of any of the stuff you've written. I read it again and still get the same thing out of it. You might go back and read it yourself.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Put him on notice?
  
  Earnest done that himself, and C.J. meant exactly what he said..
  
  He was telling Earnest that the Bible says God is not mocked, which I've said verbatim to many.
  
  It is a warning, "God does not take kindly to mockery."
  
  A "notice" .. As in 'notice' the scriptures and don't mock them.
  
  You know, "You can't tell God someone didn't warn you."
  
  C.J. does not claim power of that sort. Nor does he want anyone to go to Hell [which is where Christ Jesus said he'll go, not C.J. - C.J. was doing nothing but re-stating the Lord's words]
  
  You think me telling you that the Bible is God's Word and says those who don't accept Christ and mock God go to Hell is evil?
  
  Well get in line, there are plenty wanting a shot at me, and they have at least a million [the least] others that will tell them the same so you should get busy if you think you want to change some minds... [good luck btw, you'll def. need it]
  
  No, I read it quite well. And I double and triple checked.
  
  What do you think a 'messenger' does anyhow?
  
  You think people aren't going to do what Christ says and preach repentence?
  
  Christ sets the example in His own words at the beginning of the Gospel of Mark..
  
  Mark 1:15 - what exactly do you think repent means and why?
  
  Repent so you aren't damned.. So you might want to take it up with Christ, or I guess we are to be apostles but not do what he says? John 14:15
  
  C.J. does not care what you or anyone else thinks.
  
  He cares what Jesus Christ thinks.
  
  They murdered 10 of the disciples, and why do you think that is I wonder?
  
  Maybe they had people saying the same things to them?
  
  Think?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am constantly perpelexed by how you can believe what you believe. You believe the bible is gods word through Jesus even though it was written more than 50 years after Jesus died by people that had never met him.
  
  You believe that god loves us all and sending us to hell for an eternity simply because we cannot force ourself to believe in a ridiulcous story is a loving act.
  
  Hmmmmm
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  hippy
  
  It's undeniable fact the disciples lived 'with' Jesus during His life, and two accounts are from His brothers.. I guess His brothers never met Him though right?
  
  Goodness the lies never cease.. It's almost like you make this stuff in your head for the moment. This stuff has been dubunked and you still repeat it.. wow
  
  And I know God loves us, and no He isn't sending anyone to Hell, that would only be true if Christ never came.
  
  You sound a little agrevated you can't make Him go away, yet your name begins with His.
  
  Maybe you should consider a hobby besides ridiculing people and their loved Saviour.. Just because you don't believe.
  
  If you think it isn't real, then keep walking and don't worry.
  
  I'm not going to chase you down quackster..
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seem highly agitated vector. I'll leave you to your thoughts.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do Christians die from cancer because they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit? According to you, no. You claim not to know everything or why God dos what he does in these cases. But as soon as a nonbeliever says things against your precious God, and dies, it's because he blasphemed God. Completely ridiculous and disrespectful. You say that our hearts are hardened, but if only you knew... if only you could see your own heart... but you know too much. You're a warrior in the "good fight..." You believe that you love, but your kind of love is despicable... and certainly not something I miss about the faith.
  
  P.S. Your suffering is in your own mind. Get over yourself. There's nothing special about Christians. We non-Christians go into defense mode when ignorant people say ignorant things, as in this man's case. I didn't know Earnest personally, but I know that he was a person. Like you. Like me. A living, breathing human being who wasn't devoid of value because he didn't believe what you do. And he had every right not to. He was ill. That is all. To say that he died because he blasphemed or refused to believe your God is ridiculous, and faulty logic. There are plenty of people who will probably live longer than you, and consider your God a joke.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  vector -
  
  I would have preferred to ask this question privately, but is this really the best way to show the love of God?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, Mr Neal you are right..
  
  And it's fine asked here. I have nothing to hide.
  
  My defensiveness is forgetfulness that God does not need me to 'get the point across' and I'm not the 'persuader' I wish to be at times.
  
  I'm not a teen, but am young enough it seems my youthful zeal still comes out when God whom I love is attacked. He doesn't need defense, but other stresses have been building outside the site pertaining to the same.
  
  Your question to me was a good eye opener.
  
  I believe it's time for a break.
  
  God bless Mr Neal. Thank you.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You should have said think, never inject a fact if it has never been proven as such.
  
  To think, is to conceptualize. I cannot give you a solid word nor can I give you a think. I can impart thoughts, but then that is exactly what they are... thoughts. Nothing real, just mental images and concepts.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't state things as facts that I don't know to be true. I can't "show" you God the way most people want to see Him because He doesn't work that Way. I did not and I cannot "conceptualize" God. He's too big and too difficult to understand. I only pass along what has been proven (as fact) to me.
  
  The logical next question would be,"Why do you state that as fact?" Even when that question is asked, it's almost never asked as a question, instead as an accusation. But more often than not the question is ignored and the accusation stated as fact, thereby negating any actual debate or inquiry.
  
  Pity...
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The concept "he's too big to conceptualize". It is an argumentative comparison designed to gain a higher position. My God's this big and your god's this big, that kind baloney...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As long as you insist on "my god" and "your god" then you're right, it's all baloney! Got any mustard?
  
  God, the only God, is a lot bigger than man's conception. Read the Bible and see what kind of God you come up with. I didn't create Him and I have no desire to "gain a higher position." This is not a contest. What's true is true.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I think what most of us non-Christians are indeed saying is that Jesus was just some Carpenter a long time ago with some radical ideas, some "good," some bad, and most that certainly put him in an unfavorable place with Jewish leadership that ultimately led to his demise (if he was indeed a real person). Whether Jesus was Divine or not, due to his teachings and actions, he was bound to be crucified by accusations from the Jewish leadership of that time.
  
  If you think that somehow you're in a bad spot if Christianity isn't truth, there's something wrong with that picture.
  
  I think what mischievous is trying to say (I could be wrong), is that this is truth for you, in that you believe it to be so, not that it actually is "truth" because you cannot place a label like "truth" on something solely based on opinion, even though a "billion" people seem to share that opinion (btw, I find it interesting how sometimes Christians talk about how so many people who profess themselves Christians aren't actually going to "heaven," but in arguments of this nature, they like to add them into their numbers. (It wasn't you but vect 7))
  
  And that also, he is saying (my assumption I could be wrong) that Hell is only real in the mind, because you create it for yourself. It is not physically real, but a concept that very real in your mind as well as others who have come to believe the same "truth" as you.
  
  It is all in the end, speculation, conjecture, hear say, extremely subjective. Sure, mystical experiences may happen, but they aren't necessarily proven by a supernatural force (1.it may not be supernatural at all, and 2. we don't know enough about the human race or our Universe, etc. to come to such definitive conclusions as we do concerning the supernatural, and to have such faith in an ancient book like that. Also there are people who have mystical experiences apart from Christianity, that cannot so conveniently be labeled "demonic" because they are different and in conflict with your viewpoint of spirituality.)
  
  Science is like this in some cases as well don't get me wrong. But here is the difference between real science and religion. Scientific theories, and things sometimes labeled definitively as fact, but still are conjecture and/or possibly mistaken, can be proven or disproven, improved upon, completely dismantled, and/or proved to be true time and time again, and this is typically ok to those who live their life this way. Yes, people often jump on the bandwagon, which often happens in any scenario, and don't do research for themselves to know if certain concepts are true or not. But science is progressive. This is how truth really is found. It isn't about subjective experiences that feel as though they are true and real, and applying "truths" from an ancient book that seem to some how line up with how you've "experienced" supernaturally. It's not about saying "I don't know" and filling in the gaps with whatever sounds best or the most convincing to our ego, emotions, etc. It's about saying I don't know, but I want to find out, and doing thorough research, and if the evidence provided isn't reasonable enough, then saying, "I still don't know," and being perfectly fine with it until it is actually known as concrete fact.
  
  It's all about finding what is physically provable, what truth lies before our very eyes, not subjectively, but things that are true and observant independent and still true, and come to the best conclusions possible based on reason and thorough, objective research, aside from "feelings," supernatural "experiences," and the like.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One of the articles linked on my profile covers Jesus and His claims very well.
  
  It shows every option, and then explains it very clearly.
  
  No tail chasing. The guy did a great job. He is very collected with his thoughts.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That was one of the most succinct descriptions of Jesus from a nonbeliever's point of view that I've ever seen. It's actually rather impressive.
  
  "If you think that somehow you're in a bad spot if Christianity isn't truth, there's something wrong with that picture."
  If Christianity is untrue then I've been wasting a lot of time alienating people for no reason. And if religion is not true, then Hoky Smokes, Bullwinkle! I've wasted my life!
  
  "I think what mischievous is trying to say (I could be wrong), is that this is truth for you, in that you believe it to be so,"
  It's exactly what he was saying. It's exactly what my relative was saying. It's exactly what I used to say before I became a Christian. It doesn't change my response. Conceding for the sake of argument (and only for the sake of argument!) that God's existence is an open question, if He does exist and what He has said about Himself (in the Bible) is true, then it is true for eveybody because He said so. If He doesn't exist, or even if He's not the God of the Bible, then what I believe is true for nobody and it doesn't matter who, how many, or how hard they believe it, they're wrong! And in this way I agree completely with the hardcore atheists, time would be so much better spent finding out what is actually true and configuring your life accordingly.
  
  Which brings us to the next point, Is it provable? As I've said often, if what you want is the "burning bush," you won't get it. And the overwhelming majority of people who say they want one wouldn't for two seconds believe it was from God if a thousand angels dancing on the head of a pin were to proclaim it.
  However, I've given my reasons, the multiple experiences that I've had, as to why I believe. It's easy for skeptics to say they're "purely subjective" and dismiss them out of hand (I'm not saying you're doing that now, just that it's easy for people to do.)
  
  I understand the Scientific Method and agree with your assessment of it. But the fact is that there is a belief in science in some quarters that takes on religious fervor and rivals the Middle Ages Catholic Church for dogmatic statements.
  
  In certain circumstances, it IS all about finding what is physically provable. I don't think the Universe is literally alive, but there are a great many things we can find out about it, and many things that sometimes complement and sometimes contradict previous discoveries. Dark Matter, String Theory, quarks, black holes, I love all of it!
  
  BUT...
  
  Sometimes it's not about what you can touch with your hands (even figuratively speaking...)
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For 1000-words :
  
  Re : Your Quote : "Whether Jesus was Divine or not, due to his teachings and actions, he was bound to be crucified by accusations from the Jewish leadership of that time."
  
  The Resurrection was Witnessed by a large group of people - Eye Witnesses, that Wrote the Facts, and their Separate Accounts FULLY Concur.
  
  Have you ACTUALLY Considered His Bodily Resurrection from The Dead? (And His PHYSICAL Ascension 40 days later????)
  
  Peter The Apostle DID, and Peter Recorded this Fact - TOTALLY ON TOPIC for this forum, (regarding the time between when JESUS was In Paradise and when He Took Back His Mutilated, Wrecked, DEAD Body and Arose Alive FOREVERMORE - Amen)
  
  PLEASE STUDY THIS VERY CAREFULLY - Thanks :-
  
  † 1 Peter 3 : 18 - 20 †
  
  "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
  
  Do you UNDERSTAND this?
  
  The PRISON ?????
  
  The time factor, being 2,377.5 years from the date of The Flood to the Date of The Crucifixion Of The Lord.
  
  ALL the pre-flood REBELS, that REFUSED to believe God in The Days of Noah, DIED and "went to The Prison".
  
  To Assist you : On The Sabbath Passover Day (equivalent to our "Easter" Saturday) The Holy Spirit Of JESUS CHRIST Himself (prior to His Resurrection) WENT DOWN INTO THE VAST HONEYCOMB OF CAVES [BUBBLE SPHERES], in the depths of this earth (no way out and no way in - EXCEPT BY THE SPIRIT) And Caused some of the "prisoners" to Repent By Preaching The Full Gospel, IN THE SPIRIT, to ALL THE SOULS FROM THE FLOOD DESTRUCTION !!!!
  
  Once you understand this, you will have a clearer grasp of Hell....
  
  History WILL REPEAT itself, even IS Repeating itself - NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  † Matthew 24 : 37 †
  
  "But as the days of Noah were,
  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
  
  Amen †
  
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trash
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ANTICHRIST !!!!!! !!!!!! !!!!!!
  
  † 1 John 2:22 †
  "Who is a liar but he that denieth
  that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist,
  that denieth the Father and the Son."
  
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If ANTICHRIST means opposing this worthless nonsense you're preaching, then ANTICHRIST is to be applauded.
  
  Your delusion is suffocating.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  His posts remind me the song, "Who let the dogs out?"o
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evil says as Evil IS !!!
  
  You are BOTH totally EVIL !!!!!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It appears as if your mind is trapped in a virtual video game--DUNGEONS & DRAGONS.
  
  Your rants serve as proof that religion is one of the forms by which PSYCHOSIS can manifest itself.
  
  Your calling someone EVIL has no significance, as it is clear that you can not discern reality.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think he might be posting from a hospital computer where the psychiatrist think working in computer helps healing!
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  >,> No, we're just allergic to BS. You are childish, black and white in your thinking. We have grown up a bit. That's all. We don't take you seriously, because you reason and argue like a chid. Not saying it to offend you, just explaining why we're not taking you seriously. We can at least converse with Chris Neal and Aguasilver, etc. But you're like a robot spouting out the same stuff without considering what we write, because you are arrogant, though you probably believe yourself humble, and you spread and express hatred, even though you call it love. I don't believe anyone is evil. But then again, I also don't believe in God who believes we're all evil, either.
  
  When I was a Christian, my youth pastor was a lot like you. He then went to Jamaica, experienced a different kind of love there from Jamaicans, and came back to America a different man, who realized how arrogant he really was. How what he thought love was and taught love was was completely ass backwards. I'm still not a Christian anymore. But I think many of you need a reality check.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here you can have the correct translation
  
  1 John 2:22
  τις εστιν ο ψευστης
  Who is the liar
  
  ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι
  if not the one who denies that
  
  ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος
  Jesus is not the Christ?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! If only you were correct, that would really be something!
  
  Who is the liar if not the one who denies that Jesus not js the Christ?
  
  is not and not is aren't the same.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and if devils are liars as they are said by Christ to be..
  
  They may have just made themselves disappear to some people by doing so, so well...
  
  At least I don't think they want you to think they effect you. That would blow their cover, and then whatta ya know.. no more power.
  
  Hmm. Seems to fit.
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Sue Adamsposted 12 years ago
It will be hell for all Hubbers if the proposed new lay-out changes are going to be implemented for every hub on the site. Go to this thread and find out more.

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/95755?p … ost2045412
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Aley Martinposted 12 years ago
of course, we are all living in it here on Earth.
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johnakcposted 12 years ago
Lots of people traveling in an overcrowded bus, train is a real example of hell.

Women in poor countries carrying water from kilometers away from their house is another example.
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mrshadyside1posted 12 years ago
I agree since satan as stated by the Bible is an angel and since all angels are nothing but drone slaves(which is the reason God created man,for communion with a being in his image which is a being with the ability of free will).Satan has only the power that was given him to play out his role as prosecuting attorney and embodiment of evil.Satan has no power over man so why follow a powerless pawn?The only man that Satan was allowed to touch was Job.Otherwise he is just the symbol man uses to describe the animalistic dark side that dwells within,a convenient way to keep man from accepting his own imperfections.Which is not a true interpretation of the text but another case of man bending the text to fit.Although Satan does exist,otherwise in theory man is not the perfect creation which would imply that God makes mistakes and I personally don't think that is very likely.For one to have a choice there must be more than just one choice,otherwise you have only mindless drones which were here already. I don't know the reason for the supposed falling from Heaven came or the absurd thought of a great battle,for these things would imply God's imperfection and lack of foresight and as I stated the God I believe in is omnipotent.So there are some contradictions within the text but that is understandable seeing how these incomprehensible issues had to be interpreted by cave men.Things had to be explained in a manner that could possibly be comprehended.Although I could be wrong about the whole thing and seldom discuss what contemplation I have done because I feel rather arrogant trying to explain things that no human can comprehend or explain.I guess I'm just in a chatty mind set this morning.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
must not have been a very good lawyer. Personally, I think most lawyers are dogs reincarnated.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then you have a higher regard for lawyers than I do.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was trying to be kind. Must've ticked off Fido. He bit me.
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yogeshgiriseoposted 12 years ago
I believe in hell but very dangerous place i heard about that
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Heaven and Hell is the state of the world, determined by how we as individuals perceive it.
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erickcbposted 12 years ago
I once was a Christian. I remember feeling so guilty and ashamed of being human. The entire religion made me feel unworthy to even breath. It was suffocating almost like your existence is a mistake. I then realized, wow this book is made to make you feel the guilt. it is made to make you feel like shit! I then looked out at how much my life had been wasted living in misery. Since that moment I left Christianity and never looked back. I feel intrigued by how much people truly feel like it is their divine right to judge others by citing scripture, as if they wrote it! No. This is all wrong. There are lessons in every holy book for those who are willingly to be open to it. Lots of things having to do with judging others too. Cast out whatever is in your eye before you judge someone else. Something like that. Its been awhile :] The general message is clear though. Look at who you have become before you go out laying down the LAW with your divinity. Yet another scripture comes to mind about those who do that very thing. Something along the lines of, you search the scriptures daily thinking in them you have life! Well i think that says it all.

Just my two cents worth. I am open to all comments and criticism. Just remember all truth is merely one man's experiences and opinions over yours.
..And so the war rages on..
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And so shall it continue, friend.
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  mrshadyside1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  erickcb;Although I don't live as I was raised and have strayed far from that life,the things that I were taught are totally the opposite of the things you were taught.No where in the Bible I have read is condemnation or disgust of humanity,actually to the contrary the human being is held upon a pedestal over everything else within existence.I'm afraid that you have experienced the twisted interpretations of men that for whatever reason bend the Bible to suit personal agendas.Alas these folks that look down upon non-believers are everywhere professing to be Godly,but actually anyone who tries to subdue your allegiance with guilt or fear are not very educated in the Bible.Every human is as valuable as the next according to the text I have been taught and it is the duty of the believer to "win" souls by example and/or appreciation,not by intimidation.I have seen so many people on these very pages that have good intentions but poor guidance and education on the whole issue.The ability to spout verses from memory has little to do with the overall message of the Bible.The God of the Bible and Christianity are one in the same but nowhere in the Bible will you ever see God telling people to kill,alienate,belittle,patronize,or subdue anyone. There are some isolated references in the old books pertaining to war,which could possibly have been misinterpreted or added by the warmongers,and corrupt Catholic elements and forces aligned with the Vatican During the medieval and or dark ages to suit the agendas of power hungry wicked men.The sad fact is that the Bible is too confusing for most to interpret well,so they in good faith place their trust all to easily in men.That's where the tragic and un thinkable manifest within our world.Imagine for an instance that God does not exist,the whole thing is false,regardless of his existence if a man takes the Bible and reads it for himself and builds his life using it as a guide he will be prosperous,loved by kin and neighbor,spend the majority of his life without inner conflict or guilt,will suffer no depression,always be thankful and feel blessed,and would be the defended by those in his community and no matter what he may say would never be doubted.The simplest and easiest description of the Bible is that it is the ultimate guide for life ,down to living healthy and feeling fit.There is no other health and mental wellness and sociological guide that can compare. I apologize for the soap box session I am just a simple man that doesn't even take his own advice so the merit of my words are not very great.I was just saddened to see so many folks with animosity to an institution that has been badly represented by others."Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"and "judge not lest ye be judged thyself " are passages from the Bible but apparently are widely ignored.Thanks for the time and again I apologize for any offended individuals if any.
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Disturbiaposted 12 years ago
I don't believe in hell. Hell as we know it was invented by the church to control the masses.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Short, sweet, and simple, and so so true, my friend.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AND A TOTAL SATANIC LIE FROM HELL - LIKE ALL THE OTHER DRIVEL YOU LOST ATHEIST SOULS HAVE BEEN SPOUTING.
  
  YOU ARE CORPORATELY DECEIVED; PSYCHOLOGICALLY DISTURBED; DELUDED BEYOND REASON.
  
  YOUR ANTICHRIST RAVINGS ARE THE SPAWN OF THE DEVIL HIMSELF.
  
  YOU ALL DESERVE HELL. YOU ARE BEGGING FOR IT.
  
  YOU HAVE HAD PURE HOLY TRUTH NON-STOP FROM ELIJAH THROUGHOUT.
  
  YOU HAVE TRAMPLED ON PEARLS LIKE THE SWINE YOU REALLY ARE.
  
  HELL WAS MADE FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU ALL !!!
  
  GOD HATERS. CHURCH HATERS. BIBLE HATERS. SCORNERS. DERIDERS. FALSE CRITICS THAT KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
  
  SPIRIT-LESS. UNHOLY.
  
  TOTALLY LOST SOULS.
  
  DEVOID OF GOD'S LOVE AND TRUTH.
  
  BLIND BATS OF DARKNESS.
  
  WICKED IN WORDS AND DESTINED FOR THE LAKE OF FIRE.
  
  TWICE EVIL.
  
  IF YOU REALLY KNEW WHO THIS IS WRITING TO YOU, YOU WOULD BE ON YOUR KNEES IN HEARTFELT REPENTANCE, CRYING OUT TO THE LORD FOR MERCY.
  
  YOU HAVE ALL HAD YOUR CHANCE.
  
  THE FULL GOSPEL HAS BEEN PREACHED TO YOU ALL AND YOU HAVE REJECTED SALVATION AND HOLY TRUTH.
  
  MY CONSCIENCE IS NOW CLEAN AND CLEAR IN THIS MATTER.
  
  YOUR POLLUTED BLOOD BE NOW UPON YOUR OWN HEADS.
  
  WALLOW IN YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS FICTION AND YOUR SATANIC, MAN MADE PIG SWILL.
  
  You have just had an Encounter with THE ONLY Elijah The Prophet, BACK, ALIVE AND WELL, Born Again - Alleluia.
  
  i AM THE LIVING TESTIMONY AND PROOF OF THE TRUTH.
  
  EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE TOTALITY OF ALL MY PREVIOUS POSTS,
  IS ABSOLUTE, UNADULTERATED, HOLY AND PURE GOSPEL TRUTH - THE ONLY TRUE REALITY IN THE UNIVERSE, AS WRITTEN FOR ALL TIME IN THE MOST HOLY KING JESUS BIBLE.
  
  THE DOCTRINE OF OMNIPOTENT PERFECTION.
  
  It has been a REAL pleasure meeting ALL of you, ESPECIALLY THE TRUE BELIEVERS.
  
  GOOD BYE, AND MAY THE LIVING LORD GOD HIMSELF, WITH HIS HOLY ANGELS VISIT YOU ATHEIST LOSERS AT 4.00 AM - REGULARLY, AND GIVE YOU NO PEACE UNTIL YOU CRY OUT FOR The Lord JESUS To Forgive you of ALL your FOUL AND WICKED SINS.
  
  ONLY AND ALWAYS FOR HIS HOLY AND COMPLETE GLORY FOREVERMORE....
  
  Anathema Maranatha....
  
  AMEN & AMEN & AMEN .......
  
  † Malachi 4 : 5 - 6 †
  "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
  before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
  and the heart of the children to their fathers,
  lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
  
  http://www.Constellation7.org
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WHO LET THE DOGS OUT?
  WHO LET THE DOGS OUT?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Woof woof woof.
  
  Or maybe we should be squealing since we are swine. *oink* *oink* *oink*
  
  This guy's a joke. I don't usually like saying that about people. But... well, I guess I've been there, so. No judgement.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I feel he is a crackpot, who thinks shouting is a good substitute for reason.
  Well, variety is entertaining!
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again with the All Caps.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Elijah, get a grip, man. You remind me of the prophet that was over me when I was a part of a different youth group. You guys are nothing but selfish speakers of hate who arrogantly believe yourselves to speak for a God that's only real in your own mind.
  
  Oh, and I'm not an Atheist.
  
  If anything, I might be a Pantheist. But, that's another story.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark 11:23 : "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him."
  If you can put your money where your mouth is, then I want to see Mount McKinley(at least Trout Peak) in the Pacific Ocean(I prefer Arctic ocean, but your convenience), in 3 days time. Are you up to the challenge?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You obviously aren't for real. Nice job attempting to sound like a crazy Christian though. I'm sure you've got a few people fooled, but you are a little too far over the top to have credibility in the crazy department.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK so 4:00 AM is when you will exact your revenge, huh?
  
  Please, please, please! I didn't mean all that stuff I said. Please, Jesus forgive me for not being psychotic, primitive, childish and ignorant...as this is what you require.
  
  As you see, Lord, your faithful follower has just put a spell on us. Could you reverse that spell, and send it back so that the original sender will be afflicted instead.
  
  In Jesus' name
  
  Amen
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Elijah, are you a sock puppet of A Troubled Man? You are way too funny to be serious.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God bless you brother.
  
  Jesus said it best.
  
  Luke 23:34
  
  34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
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  mrshadyside1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only people God ever had so much wrath against were the Jews after they had disobeyed his explicit instructions about 200 times. That's why you will only find that meaningless crap in the old testament. Actually in truth most of sections of the Bible that are filled with such fire and brimstone were most likely placed there by certain prophets attempting to sway others politically within their own tribe or group.It contradicts everything else that was written.
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tammybarnetteposted 12 years ago
Hell is real. Hell is eternal separation from God.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But there is a difference between Eternal torment, and eternal destruction. If Christianity was actually true, and I'm certainly not convinced it is, but, for humor, if it was and I when I die I am simply annihilated in a place of Eternal destruction, I have no objections. How happy indeed would I be if "I am my own God" to be in Heaven. Eternal separation, while still a bit dramatic, is more understandable. But Eternal Torment is vengeful and ugly.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible does not teach eternal destruction. It teaches eternal torment. So no, annihalation is not the preferable alternative, it's not presented as an alternative at all.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  After reading the bloodthirsty stories in the bible, it would appear that being INVOLVED with God would be hell. How could anyone spend eternity with an evil monster like that?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  which stories in particular?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The passover is one story that comes to mind. Or am I misinterpreting something. Yeah, I must be misinterpreting something. I must be. It has to be my misinterpretation.
  
  I also love these verses here:
  
  If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
  
  They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
  
  "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
  
  Of course, I'm sure I have misinterpreted ALL of this.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The little children can be extra threatening, don't you know.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Bloodthirsty" here would be in the eyes of 21st Century men. Yeah, I've wrestled with that too. I just wondered if you would only pull out OT verses. And you did. I already had this conversation with Rad Man but I'll give bullet points here:
  
  1) Rules given to ancient Israelites 5000 years ago are exactly that. They weren't given to Babylonians, Egyptians, or Assyrians. They also weren't given to Christians by Jesus.
  
  2) Jews living 5000 years ago had to deal with the Bablylonians, the Egyptians and the Assyrians. Those were the nice ones. Other groups were even nastier. Some of them made the "bloodthirsty" God of the Hewbrews seem more like a tea drinking, New Age hippy. Again, where did Jesus ever tell us to go cut off someone's head?
  
  3) Had you lived 5000 years ago, whether or not you would have been Hebrew, I doubt very seriously you would be complaining about how "bloodthirsty" the Hebrew God is (except possibly to make fun of how weak their God is.)
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is a common diversion, used by believers, when confronted with the facts of the bible. I'm referring to Jesus' father GOD...who is the same person as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
  
  That's irrelavant. This seems to be more diversion. So is the God of the OT, who is Jesus' father, bloodthirsty or not?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I already answered your question. You quoted me directly! Repeating a question until you get the answer you want phrased the way you want is also a diversion.
  
  You don't have to agree with me, I know you won't. That's the beauty of being human. But don't say I didn't answer your question just because you didn't get the exact phrase you were looking for.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, but it would be so much better to get honest answers. I can accept any answer that can be validated through fact finding. Those answers that defy common sense must be rejected, lest a person should fall prey to just about anyone.
  
  Though I DON'T agree with you, that's not the reason your answer was rejected. The reason that your answer was rejected is that the evidence does not support you. Not at all!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did give you honest answers. I honestly believe that what I wrote is the truth.
  
  IF what you are looking for is some formula answer that fits neatly into what you want, then I'm sorry. If you can accept that I gave you an honest answer, even if it's one you don't like or agree with (and no one says you have to,) then good. Because I did not use any diversions.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asserted that the God of the Old Testament was bloodthirsty. You asserted that He wasn't. I, then, provided you with written proof...directly from the Old Testament.
  
  What was your answer?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You'll have to give it to me again. Although frankly I do think I answered you, you just don't like the answer. Still, between taking care of my sick wife and special needs kid (I've told other people this before, it's not new news) and time and answering other posts, I've forgotten what you presented.
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Jhudahposted 12 years ago
I'm a christian so yes i believe in hell, It is for the devil.
but, but... I still have hope of everyone to be forgiven in the so called judgement day. for Christ said 'forgive them father for they don't know what they are doing'
notice that in this life sometimes things are so confusing that sometimes we don't know what is really right.

God is my only Hope.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hopes are wishes, most of which will never be granted.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Boy and I thought I was cynical...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, brother!
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes when Jesus asked God to forgive them, then God did forgive them. So if God forgave them it is not possible for God to change his mind and torment them for an eternity for sin for which he has forgiven them. And if forgiveness is granted to those who killed the son of God, then your sin must also have been forgiven otherwise the sacrifice is insufficient and imperfect. So if God has forgiven you, then he cannot torment you for an eternity for the sin for which he has forgiven you.
  
  Did God attach strings at the cross? No.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet in many of Jesus' parables, he talked about those who were invited to the party, but when they decided they didn't need to come, they were thrown out into the darkness never to be let in. He talked about being ready for the Kingdom of God because if you're not, you won't get in. He talked about following the King (and his Son) because if you don't, you'll be thrown out in the darkness, or sent to the torment.
  
  Did God attach strings at the cross? No. He loves all and forgives all. But that is not an argument for universalism. If you don't accept it in this life, He doesn't accept you in the next one.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Missing out on a wedding supper (which does not last for eternity) and not being a king or priest in the kingdom, is not the same as an eternal torment, being set on fire, whilst God watches on.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But I think the message that he and the "Evangelicals," not that I'm sure that denomination matters, is that torment, when you study what the translations are directly from Hebrew and Greek, does not SPEAK of torment. Fire does not= Eternal Torment. It could all very well mean Eternal Destruction and finite death, "National judgement," and the like, and there is more proof of this actually, than Eternal Torment. From all that I read during my time as a Christian, and from what I've seen recently, there was never anything specifically referring to Eternal Torment. That's an idea that's been taught for some time, but is it really Christian theology, or pseudo-biblical teachings?
  
  Is there anywhere, when looking at the entire Bible as context, where Eternal Torment is CLEARLY stated? Being cast into the fire simply means... being cast into the fire unless you read way too much into the statement... He didn't say, it will be cast into the fire for all Eternity. Simply cast into the fire, and things tend to disappear somewhat quickly in that regard, and it may just be a temporary experience.
  
  "The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away: the longing of the wicked will come to nothing." Waste away? Doesn't sound like Eternal Torment should even be applied when using the statement, if Jesus was using it in the same context (I don't see why not as He often quoted OT scripture)?
  
  I think you are still only seeing what many of us were so long taught to see, and I know well that difficulty to accept anything that doesn't line up with many of your foundational Christian teachings, especially if it sounds like men with "itching ears."
  
  But, I suggest that you take a stroll, not even through your Bible if all you have is English texts, but direct translations from the greek and hebrew, and see how much, from an "objective" viewpoint, ACTUALLY CLEARLY states that there is Eternal Torment.
  
  Just a suggestion.
  
  That is something that should have been mentioned CLEARLY a number of times, again, like I said before, if God knew, which I'm assuming your God is "all-knowing," that such matters would be confusing and disputed today. I find it interesting that concerning things written in the Bible people say "oh well they knew what it was referring to and didn't think this or that would be in question, blah blah," but one would think that God's inspired word would have some foresight.
  
  None of it really affects me, too much. There may be a small smidgeon of me deep, deep, deep, down somewhere that could possibly go back to such a religion (or "relationship" as people like to call it). It's highly unlikely, however.
  
  But, I'm curious as to whether you can accept the possibility that you may indeed be wrong or not. I was always close-minded to such beliefs, so I wouldn't be surprised if it still doesn't change anything for you.
  
  And it's all good, man.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do own a Textus Receptus, which has its own set of controversies but is the one most readily available. And your point is worth considering, but I would take it even farther because you also need to consider the cultural context. That was one of the points I was trying to make to Rad Man. Will definitely do it when I get a chance.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People have a tendancy to be empirical in their belief, it is seen as fact and is defended in such a way. It took me years of restructuring my psyche, in order to unlearn all the garbage I picked up in church. The hardest part to let go of, was the biggotry and prejudice of believing myself to be right.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The "bigotry and prejudice" of believing yourself to be right is certainly a snare that many beleivers fall into.
  
  I just wish that more of the people who don't believe didn't smack just as much of self-righteousness.
  
  Examining not only your beliefs but what you do with them are very important. I'm not necessarily talking about you but my experience is that many people who beleive differently than I do are just as guilty of "shoving it down my throat" (if not more so) than people who believe the same way I do. And plenty of people who believe like I do (sadly, this has included myself) are guilty.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's what makes us human...
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baytiannaposted 12 years ago
I believe that if hell exists it would work like any other afterlife in that you must be dedicated to the faith to go there. In that light, hell only exists for Christians (Muslims? I'm unsure) who have failed to meet the requirements of their god. Those not following yahweh-elohim or any of his counterparts would not go there.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome, party round mine then?
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  baytiannaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He was kind of a Jewish rebel to the extreme, hippy Jesus came when we switched him from the plausibly historical middle Eastern Jesus to the Caucasian interpretation of Jesus.
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  baytiannaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I read your name as a response and totally confused everything. And sure thing, my religion counts partying as a type of worship, actually.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that your real face on your avatar.
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baytiannaposted 12 years ago
If you are asking me, then yes. Otherwise, sorry for assuming.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're pretty... no offense.
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  baytiannaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol, none taken, thanks actually.
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SomewayOuttaHereposted 12 years ago
do you believe in hell?....yes....it's all around us, now.....and so is heaven...we're there now...it's up to each of us to decide whether we want live in heaven or hell as we move through life...sometimes we move through both...hopefully we find our way outta hell...

my 2 cents....if anyone cares....from the book of SOH
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joebhoyposted 12 years ago
Yes, I believe that HELL exists!
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indieswebsposted 12 years ago
I don't believe until someone proves its existence.
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coffeegginmyriceposted 12 years ago
Let me ask you this, "Do you believe that there is heaven?" If you say you do, then there is always the counterpart of it. If you say you don't, then, what the hell?!
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
@ A thousand words

Your post helped me to express better something I've been trying to say. Thank you
==============================================
Is there anywhere, when looking at the entire Bible as context, where Eternal Torment is CLEARLY stated?
= - = - = - =
ME … The same question can be asked concerning many such interpretations which are being taught in Church. Which by the way, drastically changes our perception of what is ACTUALLY written in scripture.
=========================================
Being cast into the fire simply means... being cast into the fire unless you read way too much into the statement... He didn't say, it will be cast into the fire for all Eternity. Simply cast into the fire, and things tend to disappear somewhat quickly in that regard, and it may just be a temporary experience.
= - = - = -
ME … Regardless of what the vision of the fire really represents, It says that the fire burns for ever and maybe it says that people will forever be thrown into it.
It seems, that I am for ever throwing fallen limbs and such into my burn pit in the back yard. Each limb doesn't burn for ever, though the flames might.
===================================
I think you are still only seeing what many of us were so long taught to see,
= - = - = - =
Me
Spot on! Not only us but also those that taught us and whoever taught them, and whoever taught them, going back over 1600 years. We were not, but it sometimes seems almost like we have been hypnotized to not see what is actually written in MANY instances. Our preconceived ideas about what we are getting ready to read affects the way in which we understand or not, a simply written message.
========================================

one would think that God's inspired word would have some foresight.
= - = - =
Me … And if God DID have some forethought, he would have included some kind of warning into scriptures, And if he did include a warning it would be called a prophesy.
Oh! ,,, I think he did warn us about that exact thing. That is why prophesy is much more important than the church teaches that it is.
Prophesy teaches that someone was going to come along and start a false religion that distorts the truth "just enough" to lead the majority of believers astray, even to deceive even the very elect if that is possible.
“COULD IT” be possible that this has already happened ?? It seems as though you think so?
Which might mean that maybe the bible is/could be 100% true, and it is somebody’s' interpretations, 1600 years ago, that sounded so good that everyone started teaching that instead of what is actually written?
Could that be true? I think so !
=======================================
There may be a small smidgeon of me deep, deep, deep, down somewhere that could possibly go back to such a religion (or "relationship" as people like to call it). It's highly unlikely, however. But, I'm curious as to whether you can accept the possibility that you may indeed be wrong or not. I was always close-minded to such beliefs, so I wouldn't be surprised if it still doesn't change anything for you. And it's all good, man.
= - = -- ==
ME
I felt exactly as you just described a dozen or so years ago. Then I spent a decade doing what you suggested . Going back and reading for myself. It took a decade for me to discover how misconceptions I was holding onto.
And I may still be wrong!! but I feel better about believing what I do.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
I only have a few minutes here this AM. Just looking in before I gotta go, just wanted to say this before I go...

It seems to me that this subject is the most unpopular subject I have seen here in forums.

Atheist say that religion is False yet won't consider this to be fulfillment of prophesy.
Theist say scriptures are a mystery which God does not want us to understand. If that is so, why did he even give us prophesy when he didn't want us to understand them? He didn't!

And theist WON"T consider it because it goes against their OWN personal interpretation which was given to them hundreds of years ago. And to question those interpretations which were given to us long ago is Blasphemy, NOT against God but blasphemy against the establishment of the church.
It seems to be OK with the church for us to hold most any other doctrine except for the one being described in the previous post.

I think that Jesus even preached that Self Examination is very important and that we should question any and all doctrine.
I didn’t finish explaining this but I have an appointment.
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  baytiannaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In cases of the actual details of worship, it is important to note that Christian groups separated for a reason. Many groups believe that the bible serves different purposes and believe it in different ways. To class them all the same and judge them based on that classification is both inaccurate and somewhat counterproductive in light of the thousands of years they spent battling each other over meanings.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't speaking of how anyone worships.
  And yes there was many reasons that the Church separated way back in the 14th century which had to do with corruption; the first of which that comes to mind is the selling of indulgences. One could pay the church a large sum of money and receive a free pass into heaven regardless of the sins which they commit in their future.
  Yes there was reasons why the church began falling away from the parent religion.
  How ever, these breakaway religions maintained many of the basic theologies of the RCC; as well as their INTERPRETATIONS of scripture which had been firmly planted for the prior 1000 years. These interpretations continued to cause division within the churches, and still do.
  = - =
  
  You said ... "To class them all the same and judge them based on that classification is both inaccurate and somewhat counterproductive in light of the thousands of years they spent battling each other over meanings".
  
  - = -
  
  I did not intend to judge anyone, just attempting to describe an observation on my part. If I were to be judging anyone at all, it would be humanity as a whole and Myself included.
  We argue about SOoooo many petty things that the basic issues go unnoticed.
  We have kick up so much sand that we can no longer see the mosquitoes and vultures circling over head or the serpents lying at our feet.
  
  And Life goes on ...
  reply report

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