DNR and Holy Scripture

1. 59

   Dave Mathewsposted 12 years ago

   JOHN:15:13 tells us."Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
   
   The churches today are quoting this Biblical Gospel Quote to substantiate and advocate for DNR ( Do Not Recusitate ) requests made by terminally ill or terminally injured patients, patients whose quality of life is non-existant.
   
   They are also using this same quote to advocate being an organ donor, and the application of DNR.
   
   As an organ donor who has a living will and a DNR declaration on file, I see nothing wrong with this personally.
   
   Others might view DNR as assisted suicide and therefore murder, I don't see it that way.
   
   What is your opinion on this?

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      DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If I require a machine to stay alive...Then just let me go...I am an organ donor as well...Use CPR or other means to bring me back if possible...But if I am terminal then once I go, let me go...

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   2. 60

      Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      They shoot horses, don't they? Using those scriptures to justify  DNR is  ridiculous. Humanity, man! It is the only humane thing to do.

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2. 59

   A Troubled Manposted 12 years ago

   You would have similar views to the late Jack Kevorkian, yet he served eight years in prison for being convicted of second-degree murder.

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   1. 59

      Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So if a terminally ill, or injured patient is capable of instructing the doctor incharge DNR The doctor has to ignore the instructions of his patient and do what medicine requires of him?  I think not!

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      Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      There's a difference between not intervening to extend the life of a dying person and actively speeding death along.
      
      DNR is the former, Kevorkian is the latter.
      
      I see nothing morally wrong with the former, I'm a bit on the fence with the latter.

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      1. 52

         ScepticFaithposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Make room on the fence.
         
         I have no fear of death.
         In that moment of Death.
         Not giving me medical treatment would quicken my death, right?
         If I wanted it...
         Why not give me medical treatment that will do the same thing?

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      2. 59

         A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, I get that. However, euthanasia is broken down into three categories and there is heated debate regarding non-voluntary and involuntary, or extension of ones life regardless of the person circumstances as in the form of DNR.

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            Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Modern medicine has created a moral gray area. Most of the cases in which DNR, assisted suicide, and euthanasia become a point of debate would have been dead as little as a century ago, no need for discussion.
            
            I couldn't bring myself to condemn anyone on their decisions in these situations as long as they're made with a full understanding of the risks and benefits of all the alternatives.
            
            But speaking from a religious standpoint I think I'd still rather see it done passively. Pulling the plug is in essence placing the person in God's hands to take up or not to take up as He sees fit. Or, from an areligious standpoint, it's letting nature or fate whatever you prefer take its course. Injecting them with something is making the decision yourself.

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               aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I agree.
               Medical technology is a two edged sword.
               It can extend and improve quality of life, but can also extend life, and reduce quality of life at the same time.
               
               The fact is that all patients will die (even those whom medicine saves). Each person ought to be free to say, "I have had enough". I mean, how often do you hear of people in hospital "fighting for their life". Some make it, some don't. We even say that they lost their fight. Never do you hear that the doctors lost the fight on their behalf.

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   3. 78

      Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      DNR and assisted suicide are not the same thing. DNR is the patient asking for the medical professionals to not use "heroic" measures to keep the patient alive. That's me saying that if I need a machine and don't want it, don't force it on me. Assisted suicide is the patient (and sometimes not the patient) asking the doctor to kill the patient even if heroic measures are not called for or not even an option. The reason is irrelevant to this point, the point is that one is asking to be allowed to die if that's what you would do anyway, the other is being helped to die, even if death was not particularly imminent.
      
      Kevorkian never said that Terry Schiavo should be allowed to die, he said that Grandma should be killed a little faster.

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   BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years ago

   Dave, I see you're from Canada, so you may not be fully aware of recent events down under (the U.S.).
   
   Recently we had something happen that involved both assisted suicide and organ donation. Of all the left-wing news media, Jay Leno perhaps summed it up best to the satisfaction of the liberals:
   
   "This weekend, 71-year-old Dick Cheney received a heart transplant and I thought this nice - they let him shoot the donor himself."

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      lone77starposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ouch! I hope his aim was good, otherwise he might damage the organ. But since he can do such a thing, wouldn't he be better off without such a pesky organ. -- If you're heartless!...

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      Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      BLACKANDGOLDJACK: What's being a Canadian got to do with anything? The subject in question is internationally discussed.

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4. 73

   lone77starposted 12 years ago

   Powerful question, Dave. And beautiful scripture.
   
   Donating organs is a good thing -- to help others.
   
   If my body were being artificially kept alive by machine, I'd say pull the plug. If God wants me to stick around, then He'll let me know.
   
   I saw news recently of an infant who was taken to the morgue as dead and the mother visited her deceased child to see them one more time. To her shock, the baby was still alive! Thank goodness she went!
   
   Pulling the plug is one thing. Burying or cremating right away is something else entirely. I read of an expedition way back in the 1800's in Canada during a survey for their transcontinental railroad of a doctor who was kicked by a horse and thought to be dead. They named the river and the pass "Kicking Horse," because of the incident. After two hours, and just before they finished digging a grave, the doctor woke up. Don't be in such a hurry to bury someone!
   
   And assisted suicide? That's criminal! Suicide is selfish no matter how you spell it. If I'm in excruciating pain, I'd still want to stick around as long as possible. One more epiphany... one more glimpse of truth from our Lord... every moment of life is precious. If there is anything I can do, even if I'm in pain, to help someone else, I would want that chance.
   
   Dr. Kevorkian and his kind may think they mean well, but that is downright sinful. Suicide is evil and no one should be assisting someone else to do such a selfish crime.
   
   Sympathy is not the same thing as compassion. Sympathy takes the life out of someone and "agrees" with the victim and self-importance. That's all ego.
   
   Compassion, on the other hand, is all about supporting life and the growth toward spiritual awakening and away from self-importance and ego.

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5. 59

   tlmcgaa70posted 12 years ago

   first, i want to say that the verse people use has nothing to do with what they are using it for. even in the case of organ donors. if these people are dying and the question is whether to "pull the plug" or not, or to assist in their death if they no longer desire to live because to them life has become unbearable (suicide any way you look at it), then a person is not "giving up their life" for anyone, except maybe themselves.  the verse in question refers to a person or people who are alive and who desire to live, voluntarily dying to save another. the act of dying to save another when you could stay safe and alive is a great gift, a sacrifice. while organ donors give the gift of life when they die, they are already dying, there is no sacrifice for them.
   second...taking anothers life, even with their consent, is murder. it is playing GOD. i fully understand WHY people may choose such an option, but i do not approve of it.

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      ScepticFaithposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Good context of the Scripture.
      I agree.
      
      When my Mother-in-law was passing.
      On life support. Her organs systematically shut down, & no more brain function. Our family made the call to pull the plug. That is not murder.
      
      Even though she had no say in the matter at all.
      She was alive.
      Her heart was beating, her lungs were breathing, food was in her belly (all aided by machines).
      A nurse turned off the machine & she died.
      Not Murder at all.
      
      Is taking antibiotics, playing God?
      
      We can now live well beyond our actual physical limits.
      God gave us minds that make this possible.
      
      If you are absolutely terminal then you should have the right to pull the plug.
      If you leave that decision to others, they have a right to act on behalf.
      Even if it results in your death.

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         tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         if the only thing keeping a person alive is a machine then they are not truly alive to begin with. letting them go is the right thing to do.
         taking antibiotics is not playing GOD, any more than taking medicine for epilepsy is. neither medicine is designed to kill or save, only to maintain health. when i was 3 yrs old i died for 4 minutes. the doctors did not just accept that i was dead, they fought to save me. CHRIST told me it was not my time and I had to go back. even if the doctors had given up, CHRIST commanded my return.  when a person who is not saved dies, it can happen at any time. but one who is saved dies only when it is their appointed time to die. taking the life of a person who is alive is murder. if they are not saved you take away their last chance to be saved. turning off machines that act to keep the body alive when it truly is not capable of sustaining life on its own is not murder. we play GOD when we take life from the living AND when we attempt to keep the dead alive.

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6. 59

   Dave Mathewsposted 12 years ago

   My dear sainted Mother has been in a nursing home for 4 years now suffering from advanced alzheimers. She is unable to do anthing for herself, her memory is totally gone.
   
   It is so painful for myself or any member of my family to see her this way in a vegetative state, and unable to even recognize any of us, or what is going on around her.
   
   If I had power of attourney, I would instruct that she be freed from this world, but it is not solely up to me.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      my grandmother is also in a nursing home. little by little she forgets who we are. she also can do nothing for herself, tho they work to keep her going by encouraging her to play games from her wheel chair such as kick ball. she must constantly be encouraged to eat. the only family that visits her is her son and his family. this is an agreement we have all made, because to remind her of what she lost would be to painful. to put someone in front of her she cannot remember but should would hurt her. none of us would even consider taking her remaining life from her. at the moment she lives in a fantasy world of her own making. it keeps her content. it is not our place to say put an end to her life.

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      paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "DNR" means "Do not save me.". DNR does not mean "KIll me.". A world of difference there. DNR is the allowing of nature (God) to do what He wants to do. I went through this with my Dad when things reached the hospice stage. The hospice people had to poke me with a stick for 3 weeks before I consented. The fact that I found an old document that stated that DNR was what he wished made my decision possible. Thankfully, DNR did not become an issue. He passed peacefully several weeks later. Every time I remember him, I make it a point to also remember that he was 98 years old and lived a rich, full life; remembering that really helps.
      
      @Dave I wish you well in your time of sorrow. To me, the most important thing a hospice worker ever said to me was, "When your body wants to cry, let it." I followed that advice. She was right; it really helped.
      
      Best wishes,
      
      -paradigmsearch

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