Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?

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  1. PhoenixV profile image64
    PhoenixVposted 7 years ago

    So where were we? Oh yea Missionary work especially brought thousands of hospitals and schools, as well as food, medicine and literacy to impoverished countries. Altruism is in fact good and apathy is no excuse and helps no one. It never has. Sitting on your lazy keister and claiming you are actually doing something is soundly refuted. Meanwhile disease is inevitable as populations naturally travel and spread out. It is believed that disease in remote locations were normally or overwhelming brought along with the inevitable trade and inevitable commercialism that comes with a growing and expanding world. Talk is cheap.

    1. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      So missionary work was sometimes good? So what? Sometimes missionaries came at the head of army tearing down other religions and converting by force, either way it proves nothing. Secular organizations like the Red Cross do lots to hep people all the time, they are probably the most important charity organization in the world and totally secular.

      On the other hand Buddhism also praises charity and eschews materialism and Buddhists are very charitable but they never raze the world in the name of their gods or treat others as less than insects because they are heathens.

      Therefore more Buddhists is better, very simple.

      1. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Charity is good and commendable and its very good that Buddhists give. Let me know when they have also basically founded, Hospitals, Colleges and Schools as  the actual, working "institutions" themselves, all over the world for the last 500 years. Then get back with me k?

        1. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Buddhists have not been all over the world because they never practiced aggressive expansion (often by the sword like Christians did) but in areas where they are numerous they most definitely have founded schools hospitals etc.

          And they never used their faith to excuse genocide, religious violence or war. Infinitely better.

          1. PhoenixV profile image64
            PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Lets just make it an even 1,000 years. And countries that are overwhelmingly Buddhist, with a higher percentage affiliation than countries with Christians have been far from peaceful and have some of the worlds worst human rights violations records.


            Currently On Buddhist Peace Lovin

            Search: Buddhist monks destroying something in Sri Lanka

            1. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              That is just not true but since you made the claim, prove it. Besides violence not of religious causes is irrelevant to the discussion, for example Vietnam is mainly Buddhist and had a war but that was due to two invasions fighting secular communist forces, the most notable act from Buddhists was Buddhist monks immolating themselves in protest of the violence and blood shed to bring attention to the issue.

              1. PhoenixV profile image64
                PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I have proved it. History proves it. You guys don't ever prove nothing. You make no real points and run a little smear campaign because thats all your capable of. You dont know history or current events. You just have a little anti-christian spin. Watching TV and listening to creeps is not a substitution for knowledge. You gonna run off and cry like the others now?

                1. Josak profile image60
                  Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  You guys don't ever prove nothing? and then You accuse me of knowing nothing tongue do you know what evidence is? It's when you demonstrate proof (in this case from history) to back your case, so please demonstrate your proof that Buddhist countries have been more violent then provide evidence that this violence is caused by Buddhism. If you cannot then your claim is baseless.

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Josh McDowell proves the case for Christ. Go read his books. HE started out to disprove Christianity. and God pulled one over on him

                  2. PhoenixV profile image64
                    PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Ya know, if a country is 51% Christian the country cant spit on a sidewalk without someone glomming on Christianity. Now if a country is 80%-90% Buddhist well thats incidental, and of course you would never want to live there lol.


                    Buddhist monks loving it up in Sri Lanka lol

            2. GERALD-710 profile image59
              GERALD-710posted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Oh,arent the buddhist monks cleansing Sri Lanka of the hindu Tamil community.In fact,the statement was that Ceylon is the land of the pure(like what the pakistanis said in 1947 to cleanse their nation of hindus and christians)

              1. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                To answer, I think the world would be a better place without foolishness. Christians as someone stated is a label, but it has so many multifacets to it that there for a great deal of debate around certain issues. Since Christianity has evolved there has been debates within the Christian circle surrounding many great controversial issues like, is Jesus really human or just divine, did he only appear human, was he both human and divine? Should babies be baptized or is it pointless? Do we have free will or has everything been decided. I think, I'm going to do a hub on this, because it's seems some people think Christianity is one dimensional. It will be a Christianity evolution from the Apostles Creed and Letter to Diognetus to East vs. West Christianity to American Christianity to present. My professor Ellingsen would be cheesing, he's a church history buff from Harvard and Yale.

        2. profile image0
          Sooner28posted 7 years agoin reply to this

          So would these people do good things without a God to command them into unthinking obedience?  If not, while not negating their accomplishments, it makes them less admirable.

          1. brittvan22 profile image81
            brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            It depends on what believes that hold in Christianity a Pelaginist would argue that we as humans have the power to do good or bad. It is we who decide. An Augustine, would argue that we have irresistible grace that causes us do good. Some say you don't need works, some say you need them only. Some say you need grace only. Christianity is not as black and white as it is portrayed. I'm definitely going to hub on the evolution of Christianity soon, because it seems to be a united miseducation from some.

            1. profile image0
              Sooner28posted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I'm basing it on the conservative Christianity espoused by the person i was responding to.

              You're right that there are different threads, but the majority is still of the conservative type.

              1. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                @Soon, I understand your pov, I think that if some new how much room their is to be who we are and be Christian they would embrace it. Personally, I'm not trying to convert anybody, never think I could, God is good on that. I can only share my experiences with God and be there and share in community with my fellow brother or sister.

                1. profile image0
                  Sooner28posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't doubt your sincerity or your goodwill.  I just happen to disagree.

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    What exactly do you disagree with that was said?

              2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                to anyone,

                I studied something on worldview in college. Worldview is the view of the world, religion, gods, God, others and self [to clarify what my understanding is of it that I base my post on}

                Worldview can change. Most peoples' wv does change.

                at the start of it all, it is said, the Creator spoke and brought forth all that is visible and invisible to the human eye

                He said, it is good

                He places man and woman in the most perfect place imaginable and gives them just one

                just one


                do not    just one
                enter the deceiver

                Did 'God' indeed say, do not?
                Why does "God" deny you that one thing He knows can make you like Him?

                hhhhmmmnnn
                what happened? did they become more like God? or more like the deceiver?

                God promises a Messiah would come in the fullness of time...

                He gave a people all the signs to point to that Messiah who would restore the earth as it had been in the beginning

                Some recognized Yeshua as that promised Messiah when He came. Some refused to acknowledge He was the one.

                He became the atoning sacrifice for all mankinds  doing the kind of stuff we do to one another not only out of a religious perspective but our of a

                I am right attitude whether it's religious or not

                I am right is the problem

                no, none of us are

                HE is!
                Is the Bible true because someone believes it or because it's true

                IF no one believed the bible it would still be true folks.

                I tell God all the time I do not like the way You choose/chose to do things.
                But I have discovered, He does know what He's doing whether I like it or think so or not.

                To take scripture and just use it to prove others are wrong, sinful, bad, etc like the some of the Pharisees did to take control over the masses [human nature without God's Spirit] is to use the dead letter of the law

                Scripture needs the illumination of the Spirit to see its intent and purpose. HE heals, He restores.

                When the Spirit quickens the WORD HE speaks to the soul.

                Read the Word with an open mind expecting Him to speak to impress upon you what He wants to say

                Now as for God being a monster and killing people. Say, that your home is invaded by fire ants? you gonna let those fire ants just stay and take over?
                you gonna let them live side by side with you and have them eat you alive in your bed?

                God knows who is wicked and destroys wickedness off the earth, then He's called a monster. Yet we cry out why does He not destroy the wicked.

                HE did in the flood, and in Sodom and Gomorrah and He's a monster
                make up your minds folks

                Interestingly what wicked means is twisted, corrupted, outside of TORAH! That includes us all. He would have to wipe us all off the face of the earth

                me included
                So we want Him to wipe out everyone who disagrees with us? or just everyone who tries to show us that unless we come back to HIM and turn from our I am right, I am 'god' beliefs

                we will be wiped out...

                and that is the stuff everyone wants removed from earth to be at liberty to do as he sees fit in his own eyes

                not gonna happen

                does not happen in heaven He is King and heaven is heaven because in Father's house under Father's roof receiving Father's provision everyone does as Father instructs

                is that not fair?

                do you let everyone in the neighborhood into your house to do as they please?
                to speak to you any way they please
                to speak to your wife, husband or children any way they please

                and like everyone who says what is on their mind, and doesn't believe it treads on anyone else's toes, there you have what's on my mind. respect it like I do respect what you say, even if I don't agree.

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Before someone else points it out...  The Red Cross is also responsible for at least helping to spread the HIV virus by transferring tainted units of blood before the technology for testing was developed.  The difference is that as soon as the knowledge was available Red Cross Biomed completely complied at the cost of over a billion dollars per year.  They acknowledged responsibility and acted to prevent further tragedies from taking place.  Their literature about it is very appolgetic and widely available.  They cared enough to say they were sorry.

        As is obvious by the reactions of Flopsy and Mopsy... Christians feel no such compulsion.

        For a truly interesting perspective about how much Christians actually care about those who don't agree with them...

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

      3. GERALD-710 profile image59
        GERALD-710posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Red Cross is Christian.May I emphasize on the CROSS.And spreading false messages is stupid.Where did missionaries ever force people to convert.Please tell me of one such missionary.I am from Africa,We accepted Christianity willingly to be at par with the colonialists.Cvhristianity actuually enabled African independence.I do not know of any single case of forced christianity on the entire continent

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I think the world has learned from its mistakes, in some ways. And I don't adher to the belief that anyone is individually responsible for the sins of the past. Nor, any groups. If that were true, we'd all be clamoring to condemn Europe for its imperialism over the centuries.

          However, we cannot deny the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. Forced conversion and assimilation throughout the world  in the past is well documented. To deny it serves no purpose.

          1. brittvan22 profile image81
            brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            He does have a point in the history of Christianity especially in terms of African Americans, it was said that Africans were barbaric and needed to be converted to Christianity to be civilizations, although they already had their own Traditional African Religion and Saint Augustine (and African-christian) had one of the largest influences on the Orthodox Church. I wouldn't however, blame Christianity, as much as, I would say that people can twist and turn theology to fit into their own diabolical plans. People do it every day, intentional and unintention. Most don't know to study the bible, which inspired me to do a blog on how to do so. Not everybody has bad intentions, but some do. The affects can be devastating to a people. Some that have also tried to expose others to Christianity have implemented it in alignment with  the culture that was present instead of trying to make them adopt their own form of Christianity and were quite successful. The truth is it cuts both ways, because we are human.

            1. profile image0
              Emile Rposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I don't think the Africans were viewed much differently from the Native Americans, both north and south America, or any other culture that didn't mirror the European model. And the church of that time was certainly as guilty as any government. They worked hand in hand.

              But, it was people making those mistakes. They are long dead. We can ignore the mistakes of our collective history or learn from them.

              I like what you said about presenting Christianity and letting it align with the culture it is presented to. It makes sense. I believe it is obvious that the Christianity prevalent in the West today attests to that. So many of the rituals and customs are tied to Pagan beliefs that were blended into the faith over the centuries. Some see that as a bad thing, but I don't. It makes sense.

              1. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I would agree with you, for me it shows respect (which seems to be misunderstood for tolerance.) to who they are or their cultural makeup. You are also right about the treatment of the Indians (I'm part Cherokee and Lumbee)they treated them horribly and some of the effects stand today, it can really boil ones blood to dwell upon. The sad part is that Barthelow De La Casa decided to give the Indians a reprive and enslave Africans. (what a solution)There are so many different types of Christianity, most don't know that African exposure to Christianity did not begin with slavery. Augustine, Athanagorias, etc are proof of that. I think Christianity can have a great marriage within a culture of give and take alot of Greek philosopher/theologians thought so as they interpreted scripture in light of greek philosophy such as Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, etc. Clement thought that Greek philospher was a good starting point (being he was greek) for interpreting the Gospel. For some Jesus was the Logos or Reason. The history is very interesting.

        2. profile image0
          AKA Winstonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          See, this is the problem with the believer - it is not that he is stupid but instead blindly believes whatever he is told without personally checking the veracity of the statement - the heart of critical thinking, i.e., gather facts, investigate.

          By doing so, we find this from the website of the International Red Cross:

          "The Red Cross was born in 1863 when five Geneva men, including Dunant, set up the International Committee for Relief to the Wounded, later to become the International Committee of the Red Cross. Its emblem was a red cross on a white background: the inverse of the Swiss flag"

          The design is not even shaped like a religious cross, as each leg in the Red Cross symbol is equal in length.  The idea of the Red Cross design was Swiss neutrality

          But that goes against the narrative believed, so the believer will discount the facts and believe the tale that the word "cross" automatically makes the secular organization "Christian".

          1. profile image0
            SirDentposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I believe AKA is right on this matter.

          2. brittvan22 profile image81
            brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            The American Red Cross maybe secular, but the Salvation Army, Good Will, and others have Christian ties and are a part of the evolution of Christianity.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              So what? We were talking about the Red Cross. lol

            2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I don't think anyone was denying that there are Christian charities and that they do good work... I think the point is that secular charities do the same thing without the ulterior motive of conversion.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                We were also correcting the religionist who was claiming that the Red Cross was a Christian thing. Because of the cross............

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  *smiles* Yep but I was trying to get back to the original point... or a MORE original point anyway.

                  1. brittvan22 profile image81
                    brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh ok, when I started following the topic seemed to be something different all together, that's what I was responding to, let me get my nose.

                  2. brittvan22 profile image81
                    brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh ok, when I started following the topic seemed to be something different all together, that's what I was responding to, let me get my nose.

                  3. brittvan22 profile image81
                    brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, was that a jab Melissa?

              2. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I will not say they don't do good work, but to label Christian Organizations as having a conversion/services tactic underlining is not thought out. I will not deny some people may do just what you are saying, but to say Christian charities want conversion is incorrect. That maybe the motive of some who misunderstand the tenets of Christianity, such as those you said they were converting the Africans and Indians, which we know was not true. They had plantation mission, etc. I wouldn't group Christian charities all being convert tactics, but I would say in both some Christian and secular charities there maybe an underlining agenda, but not all.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  *shrugs*  The way I see it is if you are giving religious materials and/or lessons at the same time you are giving charity there is an implied tit for tat.  I have done very little charity work for religious organization(none that I can remember but I am giving the benefit of doubt)where they didn't invite the recipient to a service or give them a list of worship times.  I refused to do it in one instance and was asked not to volunteer at that church again.  Salvation Army in particular is bad about it but in my area they are so desperate for volunteers that they accepted my terms.

            3. profile image0
              AKA Winstonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              And your point is?  My point was made - that often believers simply repeat narrative they accept as true instead of using critical thinking to judge for themselves the truthfulness of a claim.

              Gerald made the claim that the Red Cross is based on Christianity.  I showed that narrative claim to be ficticious.

              The problem is not Christianity, but all magical belief systems.  Critical thinking reduces them all to the rubbish pile.

              1. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Ok, he was mistaken, you informed him, good for you, but who are you to think insult anybody. You honestly, don't know him from a can of paint, besides some blogs. These are these magical belief system, which you speak of? Traditional African Religion, Native American Religion, Voodoo, some form of deification. My point was made and if you are going to address me, read what I say first. I will not repeat myself, especially for someone that starts out an address to me in the disrespectful fashion you did, "And your point is?" Dude please.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I believe Christianity is the majikal belief system of which he speaks.

                  You do believe in majik do you not?

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    You mean like evo::poof::tion??

                    Nah..

                    smile

        3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          The Red Cross is not Christian.  The cross implies medic... i.e. help.  It is a completely secular organization.

        4. DoubleScorpion profile image78
          DoubleScorpionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I take it you never heard of the Inquisition. Ever ask yourself why most of Mexico is Catholic? Hmm... I am curious to your study of history?

          1. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I have heard of the Inquisition.
            The Spanish hadnt even Discovered Mexico yet (Id*t).Cortes was just getting born
            It was aimed against Muslims who if you can remember were NOT Spaniards but Moors(Translate for dark men meaning they were Berbers)
            The Moors had come to slaughter Christians en masse in Spain,which happened in many cases when Spain and Portugal were in their grasp.Little wonder the sweet Isabella went bonkers on them.And in any case ,they were never  killed ,just told to leave for Morocco,where they came from.
            I only disagree with the fact that they excecuted Jews,most of whom were spaniards,rather than foreigners from Morocco and innocent causalities in the war against Islam in Europe.This was the hijacking of christian power by anti semitic crazies to do their bidding.
            @Double Scorpion.How does Mexico even feature here?

          2. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I have heard of the Inquisition.
            The Spanish hadnt even Discovered Mexico yet (Id*t).Cortes was just getting born
            It was aimed against Muslims who if you can remember were NOT Spaniards but Moors(Translate for dark men meaning they were Berbers)
            The Moors had come to slaughter Christians en masse in Spain,which happened in many cases when Spain and Portugal were in their grasp.Little wonder the sweet Isabella went bonkers on them.And in any case ,they were never  killed ,just told to leave for Morocco,where they came from.
            I only disagree with the fact that they excecuted Jews,most of whom were spaniards,rather than foreigners from Morocco and innocent causalities in the war against Islam in Europe.This was the hijacking of christian power by anti semitic crazies to do their bidding.
            @Double Scorpion.How does Mexico even feature here?

        5. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          The red cross is secular and humanist.

  2. Felixedet2000 profile image58
    Felixedet2000posted 7 years ago

    Albeit they know not until destruction engulf everyone, before some will realize just how beneficial Christians are in this world. We are indeed the light of this world. A city that is set on a hill can never ever be hidden. Christians are gladiators of this life and the life next folks.

  3. Felixedet2000 profile image58
    Felixedet2000posted 7 years ago

    There is no such phrase as militant Christianity; it's all made up by you. Has a Christian Sword ever pieced you?
    Was it a physical spear of a spiritual spear if any?
    Has a Christian Gun ever gun you down?
    Were you a victim of a Christian small pox infection Mark? I mean your own personal experience.
    If no, what has Jesus done to you?
    For your information, Paul who later became the most outstanding Apostle hated the Christians more than you do; there is nothing new you are exhibiting now that we are not aware of. We are well vast in the tenets of our warfare. And it is not against mortal men Mark.
    We see people who oppose us as distractions, because the result is not dependent on the outcome of whatever transpires between us and them in the form of argument or disagreement.
    Why so much hate towards a religion that promotes peace and love around the world?

    1. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Most of us do constantly suffer the consequences of Christian dogma, gay people are denied their rights (which means my friends and neighbors), people we love regularly die because stem cell research is stopped by the church making the creation of life saving medicines impossible. I had a friend who hung himself because he realized he was gay and Christian teachings had convinced him he should be ashamed and disgusted. Etc. etc.

      Your religion does not advocate peace it regularly exhorts violence and murder against many different groups including all non Christians. I know many Christians will tell me that is the old testament and they follow the New Testament so for those I ask why then do you oppose gay marriage if the NT says nothing about homosexuals? If you don't then you are probably the kind of Christian who merely keeps their own faith and worship and I have no quarrel at all with you. I know however that the person I am responding to is not one of those.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
        oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        There are a lot of assumptions throughout that post.

        Extra emphasis is added to Christianity.

        Trying to change the way people think and feel about things, and not keeping fair to what the points actually are, rephrasing things to actually sound bad when its not even the case. No wonder there is so much animosity, the arguments are not even fair nor true. 

        Stem cells do get used for example, my family has benefited from them, we are Christians, and my Step Dad is alive today in part from adult stem cells.  The arguments are not complete facts as you state them above, but have a lot of belief and opinions in them.  Its not black and white is my point.  Many Christians including my family love and are fascinated by science.

        Josak said, "Your religion does not advocate peace it regularly exhorts violence and murder against many different groups including all non Christians." 

        Now THAT there, is a horrifying lie.  Truth is, THAT is why there is so much animosity and unrest among people toward Christians.  Josak, you should not say those things, then just say, "Well they are OT teachings, etc" after you dropped such a bomb..."   You are enabling the rage and hatred that is unfounded, against Christianity.  That makes a worse world for us all. sad 

        Why can't people just leave each other alone? Live and let live?  Ugh..(Speaking in general here.....  Don't force views on me, and I won't force views on you...  Let me vote how I like, and you can do the same.  THAT is what most people are griping about, NOT being able to force American's to change HOW and WHAT they actually think and therefore vote!)  Leave people alone folks, encourage freedom!

        1. A Thousand Words profile image76
          A Thousand Wordsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I took a break from the forums to do a small bit of self reflection amongst other things. I realized that I had forgotten that I used to be a Christian (from an empathetic view point) and also was unaware of the fact that I was letting my past experiences as a Christian, and former interactions with fellow Christians, etc, clouded my judgment. I also forgot that I never used to be one so quick to generalize. For anything that I may have said to or about anyone I apologize.

          However, I would like to comment a bit more on this, and will try not to insert conjecture as truth.

          Now, concerning what he said about gay people and their rights. It is hard to argue that many Americans are against gay people getting married because it does not agree with their own personal views. Not all Christians are anti-gay, and not all of the ones that are vote against gay-marriage. But it is safe to say, I think oceans, if we are being honest, that gay rights are denied because of the ideas that come from Christian Theology, at least the current understanding of it.



          While you and your family's views on the subject are valuable and admirable, it cannot be a standard for all Christians. Many of them fight against stem cell research. That is a known fact. Not all of them do, as you are an example of. But many. Because of the opposition, stem cell research isn't in full blossom as it should be, because many Christians find it to be immoral. You and your family do not represent all of Christianity.



          I would have to disagree and say that are a number of reasons why their is so much hostility towards Christianity. While we've already previously argued on what can or can't be labeled a "contribution of Christianity," I will not attempt to here. However, while his statement is false, because the people who practice violence often ignore the peaceful actions advocated by Jesus, he is right, because people have and are able to use the Bible as an excuse for violence. Does that make the Bible and religion itself a reason for it? It's hard to say. If there were no violent scriptures, who's to say how people would or wouldn't react in certain situations. It's simply conjecture, and not provable or disprovable. But considering how much importance the Bible has, and how selfish and self-serving people can be, it isn't surprising that people misuse it, but you cannot say that people's actions line up with Christianity, per se, because it does not. And so, while not a horrifying lie, it is a judgement based on people's past actions.

          If Christians want to labeled as a peaceful bunch, the whole of them should be a peaceful bunch, or there are always going to be people who hate it because either they or someone they love have been at the mercy of a group of people with the "Christian" label that have given them a set in stone view of what Christianity is, even if that wasn't truly Christianity's goal.



          What happens when you vote to deny people rights? It happens through the centuries. People voted, and didn't want women to vote or Blacks. They also didn't want blacks to marry whites. When is the law helpful, and when is it only serving self-centered agendas that deny the rights of minorities?

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Why can't people just leave each other alone? Live and let live?  Ugh..(Speaking in general here.....  Don't force views on me, and I won't force views on you...  Let me vote how I like, and you can do the same.  THAT is what most people are griping about, NOT being able to force American's to change HOW and WHAT they actually think and therefore vote!)  Leave people alone folks, encourage freedom!

          I covered exactly that in my comment, I don't mind people having faith at all, I was once a devout Christian myself, what I do mind is people using that faith as an excuse to change the lives of others, gay marriage being an excellent example, people seem to believe that it's OK to enforce the beliefs of their faith into the common law on people of other faiths or no faith at all and that is wrong as I said if you are the kind of Christian who does not wish to push his beliefs into law, who lives and lets live and worships his god while respecting others and their faiths then I have no problem with that, many Christians do not do this.

        3. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          That's rather controversial. First of all, the reason conservative Protestant and Catholic churches hold what many people consider an opposition to stem cell research is not because we oppose stem cell research. It's because that the way stem cells are harvested is from aborted fetuses. You can argue all day long about the need to develope medicines that save lives and no Christian will disagree with you, but when that is done by treating actual human beings as disposable (that would be the fetuses) then someone has to stand ups. And whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the next step is to harvest organs from those fetuses. That has already been argued. The ultimate step is to declare that any fetus is fair game for anything. If you think no one will abort fetuses just to harvest the cells, think again. I don't think it will be normal, widre-spread or casual. But even one instance would be too many.

          It could be argued that by preventing stem-cell research we conservatives are saying that (gays/parkinson's patients/alsheimer's patients/what have you) are not as important as blood clots (and that argument has been stated much that way.) The answer is NO! But there has to be a way to harvest the cells and do the research that honors the humanity of people, whether they are ninety years old or ninety minutes old, who have died.



          That is an incredibly sad thing and if I had known your friend I would have told him that God loves him too. Everybody in this world, no matter who, is made in God's image and that makes all people incredibly valuable. All people.



          First of all, the NT certainly does say something about homosexuality. Leaving aside Paul, Jesus does state that God created them "man and woman," quoting Genesis 2:21-24 verbatim. And that is a statement that God made man for woman and woman for man, and one for one, not one for many or many for many.

          To say that Christianity "regularly exhorts violence and murder" is to paint with the very same broad brush what we are accused of painting with. And we often are guilty. But you lump conservative Protestants in with Catholics in with liberal Protestants in with Quakers. It's just not so.

          1. Cagsil profile image81
            Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Aborted fetuses are already dead, so you stand on weak ground. Your problem and the Church's position are the same. The argument isn't about using stem cells, but is about "abortion". And, that is pitiful.
            I don't like your terminology which is sadly misplaced. It isn't a human being. It's a human organism. Get it straight.

            You and others who oppose Abortion are the problem. You use terminology which is foolish and voids the stages of birth, just to prove a point which has no point, other than a religious point of view, which again is completely foolish because YOU and everyone like you, including the pathetic morons running America, don't stand for equality or equal rights.
            It's dead. Do you have a point or are you just talking to hear yourself talk?
            Stem cells are about all that is valuable from a dead human organism.
            Beautiful statement. It shows how irrational your faith in humanity is and it's an atrocity in and of itself. You possess a negative attitude toward others, which apparently you seem to think it is okay to tell other people how to live. Your beliefs are your beliefs and apply to your life. As I have said before, I am a rights advocate and what you state(and any action you take against anyone else) is a violation of a person's individual rights to live their life. Therefore, leaves only one thing left to say. Mind your business!

            The fact that religious folk continue to encompass ALL of humanity into their sad beliefs and then take actions to oppress them just shows you've no compassion and learned NOTHING from Jesus at all.
            Yeah, you rather completely over populate the world, kill all edible resources and then watch humankind become extinct, than give people their rights. How pathetic.
            If you didn't know, blood clots kill people. Blood clots damage brain cells and turn people into vegetables. You must be proud to be a hypocrite.
            Honors the humanity of people? Dead people are dead people. It is an honor already that they can still contribute to humanity's growth.

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              if you put dead cells from a dead fetus into another person they will do no good. in fact they will begin to affect the living cells in that person and make matters worse....

              They have to use the cells before the fetus dies to make a difference.
              dead is dead--no life no good for the purpose

              1. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Actually, it's harvested shortly after death. The cells are still good. Otherwise, there would be no sense in it.
                BS.
                Untrue.
                Go learn something will you.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  necrotic cells will kill other cells go look it up

                  1. Cagsil profile image81
                    Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    You're not paying attention. Selective reading I see. Nothing new. hmm Not a surprise.

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      I really do love you too! Cags

                2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  here i did it for you

                  from city of hope website
                  necrotic /ne·crot·ic/ (nĕ-krot´ik) pertaining to or characterized by necrosis.

                  Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  necrotic
                  [nekrot′ik]
                  pertaining to the death of tissue in response to disease or injury.
                  Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  necrotic
                  of or pertaining to cell death and enzymatic degradation.

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  necrotic cervicovaginitis

                  necrosis in cows and ewes, usually as a result of trauma during parturition.
                  necrotic colitis

                  common in older cats as a cause of chronic, foul, bloody diarrhea.
                  necrotic dermatitis

                  gangrene and necrosis of inflamed, wet skin caused by Clostridium septicum; characterized by a sudden onset of severe depression, a short course of a few hours and a high death rate; mostly in 4-16 week old chicks.

                  necrotic ear syndrome

                  extensive necrosis of ear edges in baby pigs probably caused by biting by pen mates plus Staphylococcus hyicus.

                  necrotic enteritis
                  a name used to refer to: (1) subacute or chronic enteritis in pigs, usually a sequel to an acute episode of enteritis caused by Salmonella spp. or Campylobacter hyointestinalis and other anaerobic flora. Characterized by unthriftiness, and intermittent or chronic diarrhea; (2) a hemorrhagic enteritis in young chickens caused by Clostridium perfringens type C.

                  necrotic glossitis
                  necrosis and loss of the tip of the tongue in feeder steers; cause unknown.

                  necrotic hepatitis
                  see infectious necrotic hepatitis.

                  necrotic laryngitis
                  see calf diphtheria.
                  necrotic rhinitis
                  a cellulitis of soft tissues of the face and nose of pigs. The face is swollen and the nasal cavity occluded. It causes dyspnea, stertor and difficult mastication. Fusobacterium necrophorum is the cause, usually entering through fight wounds. Called also bullnose.
                  necrotic stomatitis
                  see oral necrobacillosis.
                  necrotic ulcer of swine
                  see ulcerative granuloma of swine.
                  necrotic vulvovaginitis
                  usually the result of injury during dystocia.

                  that's Christianity at the moment--dead
                  sorry guys, but it's true
                  truly do not mean to hurt your feelings but Yeshua is being revealed as in REVELATION

                  because HE is coming to restore His kingdom and not to perpetuate a religion started by Constantine an pagan Emperor in the 4th century

                  check out Passion for Truth  videos available all the time
                  House of David  tomorrow at 6 pm CT was wonderful this evening filled with revelation and life

                  Glory of Zion Chuck Pierce tomorrow all day live to see how Yeshua is restoring his kingdom

            2. Chris Neal profile image74
              Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Well, I asked what you believe and you certainly filled me in.

              You say you believe in human beings but that is one of  the most debasing series of statements about humans I've ever read. Both living and dead.

              And no, I don't talk just to hear myself. Go out and google it. There are people talking openly about harvesting organs.

              But it's easier to yell at people like me and call me names.

              1. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                You know Chris, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Stupidity in motion is the most dangerous thing on this planet. It's the irony you seem to think that people only dole out belief or opinion. That's pretty sad.
                I doubt that, so does that now make you a liar?
                Sure you. You cannot even see past yourself, much less anything else, so the only logical conclusion which can be drawn is that you do enjoy hearing(reading) yourself talk.
                No need to Google it. I know people talk about it openly. It's pathetic, but it's done. Did you have a point aside from pointing out the stupidity of others?
                See, you suffer from persecution complex as well as most religious. You automatically see things which disagree with you, as name calling.

                1. Chris Neal profile image74
                  Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay, you're not yelling, you're simply putting me down. Which is all that was. I'm not suffering a persecution complex, go back and insert yourself in my place, and imagine someone was talking to you the way you talk to me. And you make assumptions that you can't possibly know and don't care to verify. It's easier that way. I should know.

                  Which leads me to my next point. No matter what you've said to me, or what you might or might not have meant by them, I was wrong to call you a name. There is no excuse for it. I'm sorry and I hope you can understand my apology and forgive me for doing it.

            3. Chris Neal profile image74
              Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              And seriously, if  that's what you got from my post, then stop pretending you actually read and admit that you simply react.

              1. ErinGorney profile image73
                ErinGorneyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Cagsil is the only voice of reason, applying actual logic to this whole thread. Religion isn't the answer to everything...  SO THANK YOU CAGSIL.

                1. Cagsil profile image81
                  Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you Erin. Much appreciated. Btw- Welcome to HubPages! smile

                  1. ErinGorney profile image73
                    ErinGorneyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    After reading everything I was getting progressively more annoyed, until I actually agreed with someone.. you. I have learned to not debate with religious people use a book written by man kind THOUSANDS of years ago as "scholarly evidence" to base their foundation on every argument. Its a no win argument. But I do appreciate knowing that I am not the only logical person here who can use actual science and logic in their way of thinking, not just pull random "quotes" out of a skeptical piece of literature.

                    Now I am sure I am going to get bashed for the one time I speak out about my FEELINGS on the matter. But before any christian decides to speak out against my choice of words.. I suggest you reread on the parts of being non-judgmental, and treat thy neighbor as thy own.... follow your own advice and let GOD judge me, not you.

                    Anyways, I got sidetracked.. But thanks again for the refreshing logic.

                    XPeace

                2. Chris Neal profile image74
                  Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Perhaps, although I'm a little doubtful. He is certainly passionate. He applies the logic he has, to be sure, but is given to making vague statements about "what Jesus actually meant" without explanation. I've asked him to explain, and so far he hasn't.

                3. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Whoever said Faith has anything to do with reason or logic?

                  Faith is way above reason and logic. The natural mind cannot understand faith.

                  "Faith is the substance of things guaranteed [by the Creator in His Covenant which anyone can know for sure because Yeshua (Jesus) said, If you do as I instruct ---TORAH---My Father and I shall manifest our reality to you. If you continue in My Word, you shall know the truth, and knowing the Truth shall free you from mere human reasoning and logic.] Faith is the evidence of things not [yet] seen [made manifest in the natural world.]

                  Anyone can know the Creator. In fact, He longs for everyone to know Him. And the earth shall be filled with the glory of the King as the waters cover the seas. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Yeshua HaMashiach is King. So it shall be...

                  Of the increase of His government and true Peace there shall be no end forevermore. So shall it be...

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    oooopppps And Eye has not seen nor ear heard what things the Father has prepared before the creation of the worlds for them that do as He instructs, seek to know Him, follow hard and diligently after and pursue Him.

              2. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                I read your posts Chris. It's likely you don't read your own posts before hitting submit to reply.

                1. Chris Neal profile image74
                  Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  No, Cagsil, I do read them.

                  You know, I write a lot of poetry. The point is not that I want you to read it, the point is that I understand in  the context of art that people get out of something what they get out of it, and what they get from it may have little or nothing to do with what you intended. That's why I don't ever talk about my inspiration for it. What people get from something often depends more on what they bring to it than what the artist puts in to it.

                  I meant what I meant, no matter what you tell me I meant. I try to be clear and concise, but I don't always succeed. Sometimes I'm misunderstood because I'm not clear, sometimes I'm misunderstood because the viewpoint of the person reading it is so different. Sometimes I'm clearly understood but the person disagrees with me, perhaps strongly.

                  I am, however, trying to get away from arguing and yelling.

          2. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Finally!someone who sees sense!Yeah.And lumping American evangelists with the rest of us is pure nonesense

        4. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
          ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I am truly sorry to hear about your friend that killed himself. My ex-brother-in-law killed himself--alcohol addiction mostly and extreme lack of self worth. I also had two other friends that killed themselves, the mother and sister of a very good friend.

          Knew some friends that tried and did not succeed

          and from about age 11 to age 53, 54 i had suicidal thoughts harass me all the time

          they sounded like Cagsill and Mark's you're not worth anything actually why don't you kill yourself

          I was afraid I wouldn't succeed and would feel ashamed. So i never tried. Now I know it was a spirit of death. It is written for our information, "God [whom I call Father] has not sent you a spirit of fear but of power and of cheshed and of a sound mind [if I keep my mind focused on and listening to and stayed on His word which sometimes i get caught up in emotion] So when fear comes, I refuse its ability to torment me.

          It may have been immature Christians that were more ruled by the 'dead letter of the law' that satan  used their ignorance to push your friend over the edge. And I am truly, truly sorry.

          from the instant we're conceived the devil assigns demons to watch us and to learn how we respond and react to everything to learn our weaknesses and that is where they attack every time

          a religious spirit is one of the worst
          it knows no one can possibly live up to the WORD or the Decalogue
          and it condemns
          it shames
          it ridicules
          it humiliates
          it belittles
          it shoots fiery darts into a person's heart that causes poisonous pockets in the soul

          then it ridicules people when someone 'innocently' does something similar to the original hurt and that wounded person reacts out of the pain

          that's why i 'appeared' so 'ridiculous' in my reactions to being told I am worth nothing
          same lying spirit as in my childhood--it's called a familiar spirit

          and all those pesky ugly little annoying spirits are going to be exposed and driven off the planet very, very, very soon

          yes, it does sound extremely crazy
          out of my mind, yep]
          and into Yeshua's mind

          Really, really, really sorry for the loss of your friend.

          but blame the religious spirit not the people that didn't mature yet in their faith in Yeshua.

          1. profile image0
            Sooner28posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I never believe anyone, no matter how much I disagree with their particular point of view, is "worth nothing."  Every human being has value imo.

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Wholeheartedly agree with you there Sooner28! That is just one reason abortion is so against even human nature. I so regretted aborting my first baby. Her name is Rebekah and I've been so privileged to have seen her [with the eyes of my spirit] dancing in heaven before the Father's throne. The true guilt that overwhelmed me after murdering my baby is what brought me to the foot of the crucified Christ begging for forgiveness.

              He healed me and forgave me and I had to learn to forgive myself. Bekah would be 37 this coming September. Her daddy's birthday is also in Sept.

              Every being! That's the whole premise on which Christ gave His body to be broken!
              It's incredibly sad that people sacrifice babies for all sorts of irrational reasons. I'm ashamed of what my reason was---the lie from the devil that my father would have a heart attack! Isn't that pitiful?

              What really put it over the top for me was the news report on Yahoo yesterday about the 15 year old boy that discovered the test to find pancreatic cancer way before it kills ! We're killing our scientists and the cures for diseases for irrational reasons.

              That's part of the reason Christ gave himself to be crucified--for the right of every child to be born and accepted and rejoiced over. Children are a gift from YHVH and blessed is the man whose quiver is full.

            2. Chris Neal profile image74
              Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Absolutely! I couldn't agree with you more!

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image84
        oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        The answer to your last question I think is that it is absolutely the truth.  This is why it gets the heat, and why Jesus knew what was coming. 

        What Christianity teaches, actually explains this otherwise VERY irrational behavior and animosity, from people who might normally care about being moral about how they view others.

        You make great points....  there is this great rage from the heretics long ago, its their core stance against a God they are railing against, that lets them.  He extends the hand, grace, mercy and love, and they give him this, and then wonder why they can't get away with it and go to heaven too.  Its amazing to me, and so obvious.  The battle that is ensuing, makes them easy targets of evil, as they are so super easy to convince...for instance that Christianity is evil.  The VERY thing that can save people from true evil, is the demonized thing.  The stuff movies are made of and books are written about.  Humanity knows these ideas are not false, and it is inherent. 

        This is why many atheists got tired of fighting the obvious and decided to follow Christ instead.  They get tired of beating up against what is true, and embracing hope and love instead.  They have to perceive it is out to hurt them or others, and blame the few that do it, or using centuries old stories.  It shows they already agree with the morality of Jesus.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image76
          A Thousand Wordsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          It seems as though you are inserting conjecture as truth. Are you saying that you know for a fact that all atheists are aware of God and that Christianity is truth? There are many Atheists who do not completely agree with the morality of Jesus, and are still against Christianity. Are you using truth or inserting conjecture/opinion/hunches as truth?

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
            oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            A Thousand Words, great questions, thank you for asking because I thought it was clear based on what we have been talking about.

            I am not relying on my own definitions and ideas when I say those things, but things Mark K is affirming on his own.  For instance, that it is bad to murder people, and all the rest.  Any "beef" he has with Christianity, turns out to be that he agrees with Christianity and Christ!  Its very true, not conjecture, that the atrocities he mentioned (if I am recalling correctly) were indeed atrocities.  He struggles with the truth that Christianity not only teaches not to do those things, but he denies that it teaches to go even further, and do further good.  He also denies truths or is leaving them out purposely, that there are many other reasons for going to war to protect your own freedoms, and other political things.

            I don't know for a fact that all atheists are aware of a God, but I DO know they are not unfamiliar or shouldn't be with the teachings of Jesus.  It makes no sense to pretend to be against something that we all are already against, including Jesus through his teachings.  There is no argument there, and instead a denial of what they are doing when they do it.  You have to be defining Christianity by something it actually ISN'T, to get away with what they are doing.  This isn't honest and I point it out, and they can't deny they do it, and thus get frustrated and want less of people like me in the world, lol, than to be more logical and in keeping with facts of matters. 

            That is where I am coming from. None of them would value my hunches and opinions anyway and that is why I am dealing in facts, logic and reasoning.  It is why many stop talking to me, lol.  Its not meant to be a trick or anything, but I know that if they deal in the same things, they have no argument, thus the frustration over wanting to side with better reasoning.  I think the world would be a better place if we put our feelings, (there is a lot of those here!), opinions and hunches to ourselves, and kept to facts.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Please stop lying about me - thanks. There is no such thing as god.

              This is why your condescending religion causes so many conflicts.

              Once again - this is about Christians - not Christianity. Sorry you are so angry and hate-filled you keep forgetting that.

              I have no problem with Christianity - is is you guys that are the problem. wink

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
                oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Mark, you are trying to force your own points, which counter reason.  You define Christians as people that are bad, and did things badly centuries ago, and that you can find periodically doing now.  That is dishonest of you to do. 

                Your forcing that insistence that this is about Christians that do evil things (as it turns out, when we look deeper), you already lost. 

                What did I lie about? You are indeed lying when you say I lied about you, unless you show how.  I understand very well, that you have many here not counting on fact, like yourself, that will just believe you for what you say for poor reasons.  It is people like yourself, that lie about others that cause conflicts, then you blame it on others. 

                My beliefs are one of hope for people.  It offers assistance, love and good things, as we see now and throughout history.  Your very one sided (its only evil) view is patently wrong.  You insist on it, and you lose.  Don't take out that frustration on me and others.

                You can't apply what you are ACTUALLY doing, then ask me to stop it.  That is very juvenile and obvious.  Show how my reasoning is the problem?  Rather, what I am requesting of you and others, would make for a better world for all.  You are a deeply dishonest human being, and I just showed how again.  If that makes you angry, consider why.

                It is a compliment, that you consider me a problem.

                1. Chris Neal profile image74
                  Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Mark has applied one tactic in the past that has driven me crazy. I don't think he does it dishonestly, but it's still not an honest tactic. I may be wrong, but I think that whenever he catches someone in a mistake, whether that mistake was out of ignorance or just moving to fast, he labels it as a lie and calls the person who made the mistake a liar. And he doesn't make allowances for mistakes, once he's labeled them a lie that it.

                  Now I know you read these posts Mark, and if I'm mistaken I'm sorry, but that has been my experience with you.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes - you are mistaken. You lied - I called you on it.

                    Any time you want to show me the masses of historical evidence you referenced - or show me the statistics that bear out the nonsensical "facts" you pull from your behind - I will retract my statement.

                    If you are going to state things as facts - I think it is reasonable that you check these things before calling them facts.

                    Don't you?

                    1. Chris Neal profile image74
                      Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      I did and I have and I stand by what I said. Not by what YOU said I said, but by what I actually said.

                      Nevertheless, and you may call me on this all day long and I won't deny it, I have decided that it's pointless to get into the actual proof with you because you are demanding a certain kind of proof. What I know is valid but I don't think you will accept it. Nevertheless, I did not lie and for you to say I did because you don't agree with what I said is certainly not any better than what you accuse me of.

                      I'm just tired of arguing for the sake of arguing.

              2. GERALD-710 profile image59
                GERALD-710posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                You mean American evangelical christians.Coz bundling 2 billion people belonging to hundreds of thousands of denominations as a :'problem'shows bigotry.So what did a Greek catholic or an Armenian Orthodox,both suffered genocide ,ever do to anybody.Or the Eastern Orthodox who are the third largest denomination after catholics and Protestants.Do you hear American catholics making the level of noise the others do?

              3. Chris Neal profile image74
                Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                You're okay with Christianity, but you don't like Christians?

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I just don't like liars and hypocrites - sorry. Christianity sounds awesome. Christians - not so much.lol

                  Just imagine if y'all really did have a personal relationship and kept it where it belongs - in your heads? Heaven on earth...........

                  1. Chris Neal profile image74
                    Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Now you're inviting an actual analysis of Christianity? Because the Bible did say  that we are NOT to keep it in our own heads. That's directly from Jesus.

                    That's not to say that everybody who claims to be a Christian does a good job of it. Many aren't even really trying. But there's more to knowing Jesus than simply knowing that you, personally, get to go to Heaven when you die.

            2. A Thousand Words profile image76
              A Thousand Wordsposted 7 years agoin reply to this



              It is not logically sound, however, to use Mark as an example. Mark is one tiny dot on the Atheist scale... Don't you keep telling us not to generalize? Come on, oceans. Many people on here see Mark as a troll (no offense, Mark), including other Atheists, and people of different beliefs than you. You can't use Mark as a standard...



              There a=were many religions in existence before Jesus that spoke ill of murder.

                Shouldn't that tell you then that most people who claim this Christian God aren't being very Christian=like?



              Mark, again, is a small dot on the Atheist scale. To even group all Atheists together is faulty, because the only thing that you can factually say that is true about all Atheists is that they don't believe in the existence of God. After that, there is a plethora of different viewpoints they could hold, and numerous ways that they could approach any situation, conversation, "truth," etc.

              How do you know this?


              Could you explain that sentence a bit better?



              While I can't comment on how logical you are or aren't being in totale, I can agree that often people form bad opinions about Christianity based on what they've experienced from Christians or people using the label, instead of what is taught by Jesus. What should that mean to YOU, though? What should the people who hold this title be doing differently? And how can your God hold it against them (Atheists), when they've had more experience with the bad examples than the "good?" Of course, you must also understand that what a Christian thinks is good, and what Non-Christians think is "good" is not usually congruent.



              I also agree that feelings can get in the way. But feelings are what make people who they are, including Christians. I doubt very many people would stay a Christian for long if their was no emotional satisfaction at all. I know that it was hard for me for a long time to be without that emotional satisfaction after I left the faith. But I've moved on. I try to be objective, but sometimes succumb to feelings. We are all, whether we like it or not, slaves to subjectivity in some form or another.

              1. PhoenixV profile image64
                PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I think we can use Mark the troll as a standard. Mark the troll, Pol Pot, Mao, Enver Hoxha and just about every atheist here or on the web.

                The overwhelming majority of atheists that I have encountered dont illogically just lack belief in God. They are publicly anti-christian. One would be an illogical philosophy; the other a purposeful agenda. That has cost 60-100 million human beings lives.

                The only truly intellectual stance would be agnosticism, if one were devoid of experiential or logically claimed belief.

              2. Chris Neal profile image74
                Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I was unaware that other nonbelievers felt that way about Mark.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  How rude of you to talk about me indirectly. Lots of people hate me for telling the truth - no matter their denomination.

                  It was written that this would come to pass, but it is my burden to bear. big_smile

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Mark, people hate the feeling of being attacked by words that to them sound belittling, humiliating, condemning, put downs.

                    and when that feeling controls them, like it did me for a short time, they will be defensive and fight back

                    and that's what you want so you can then blame them after you provoked it. Yes, I do know that tactic very well.

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Please stop lying about me. I just tell the truth.

                      LOL that you still keep jumping into to conversations that I am not having with you. I never engaged you - you attacked me with SCRIPTURE.

                      Then I belittled you. wink Actually - that is not quite right. I belittled your ridiculous beliefs and asked you to stop jumping into conversations I was having with other people.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image74
                    Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    I'm hardly  the only one.

                    And where exactly was it written that your particular "truth" would be your burden to bear?

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 7 years ago

      I guess the 'Christians' in this thread should probably wonder if there is anything they've done in the last 103 pages to make people hate them less. 

      I personally can think of at least 3 Christians in the world now that the would would be better without.  Much better actually... Too bad they lack the inner peace and honesty that would be required to convert to Buddhism...

      I guess their Christ wants them to accept no responsibility to lie and to wade in pride and arrogance.  Geez I'm glad that my Christ doesn't ask me to do such things.  I guess that's why THEIR religion causes so many wars.  Good thing they aren't REAL Christians... just trying their best to be false prophets.

      1. GERALD-710 profile image59
        GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I would love to leave the Secularists in the hands of the Islamic fanatics.Starting with the Death-to-the-Apostates Ayatollahs of Iran.Maybe then is when they will realise what Christianity faces and protects against on a daily basis.
        Or move them to Thailand,the Buddhist paradise,isnt that the same place people get killed for their organs?(and am not talking about something I saw on the News.Unclaimed bodies do not last long in a Bangkok morgue)

        1. j-u-i-c-e profile image96
          j-u-i-c-eposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Islamic fundamentalism is fueled by anti-Western imperialism. If Islam had conquered the west and Christianity was in the middle east fighting Islamic imperialism, their positions would be reversed. Islam would be a fat, bloated, lazy religion and Christianity would be a tightly knit fundamentalist and militant movement. You're just proving that fundamentalism of any kind is bad. If Islam had wiped out Christianity in the middle ages, it wouldn't be fundamentalist and militant anymore. It would be jaded and cosmopolitan and under the onslaught of skepticism and atheism as Christianity is now. Human nature doesn't change, just the conditions and the unfounded dogmas it chooses to believe in.

          1. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You really are Ignorant of Islam.
            Christianity teaches to'turn the other cheek'
            Islam teaches to 'strike terror into their hearts'
            And the islamic onslaught has been happening long before western imperialism appeared.Under the name of Jihad,christianity was wiped out of north Africa(except for Egypt) and Buddhism completely disappeared from Central Asia.
            There are over 109 verses in the Quran that preach violence,murder,rape and terror against non muslims.Ever wonder why suicide bombers scream Allah Akbar before ripping apart a church.Just following their book.
            Christianity tolerates Apostacy and actually accomodates non christians.
            In Islam,Apostacy carries the death penalty.And that is the mild sharia.In KSA it is either by stoning or by the sword!

          2. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You really are Ignorant of Islam.
            Christianity teaches to'turn the other cheek'
            Islam teaches to 'strike terror into their hearts'
            And the islamic onslaught has been happening long before western imperialism appeared.Under the name of Jihad,christianity was wiped out of north Africa(except for Egypt) and Buddhism completely disappeared from Central Asia.
            There are over 109 verses in the Quran that preach violence,murder,rape and terror against non muslims.Ever wonder why suicide bombers scream Allah Akbar before ripping apart a church.Just following their book.
            Christianity tolerates Apostacy and actually accomodates non christians.
            In Islam,Apostacy carries the death penalty.And that is the mild sharia.In KSA it is either by stoning or by the sword!

          3. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You really are Ignorant of Islam.
            Christianity teaches to'turn the other cheek'
            Islam teaches to 'strike terror into their hearts'
            And the islamic onslaught has been happening long before western imperialism appeared.Under the name of Jihad,christianity was wiped out of north Africa(except for Egypt) and Buddhism completely disappeared from Central Asia.
            There are over 109 verses in the Quran that preach violence,murder,rape and terror against non muslims.Ever wonder why suicide bombers scream Allah Akbar before ripping apart a church.Just following their book.
            Christianity tolerates Apostacy and actually accomodates non christians.
            In Islam,Apostacy carries the death penalty.And that is the mild sharia.In KSA it is either by stoning or by the sword!

            1. j-u-i-c-e profile image96
              j-u-i-c-eposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Your ignorance of history, foreign policy, and Islam makes this discussion rather pointless. The OT is built on a tribal revenge fantasy born thousands of years ago in the Middle East. This fantasy was absorbed by both Christianity and Islam. Both have used this fantasy to justify war and persecution. The problem with both religions is believing that this fantasy is useful to anyone, or has been useful to anyone for thousands of years. You will continue to have war and persecution for as long as you believe that your religion makes you special and people of other religions (or no religion) are not. It is divisive and encourages violence, regardless of what you believe it teaches.

              Present fundamentalist Islamic militarism is founded on centuries of Western imperialism. Many in the Middle East feel that the West is exploiting and dominating them. The automatic and unconscious response to this is reactionary violence. The Koran justifies their desires, just as the Bible justifies the desires of Christians when they feel oppressed and exploited. That's what a tribal revenge fantasy is; a justification for making your enemies suffer. Many Christians are afraid of their own violence and thirst for vengeance, so they 'let God sort them out', which is nothing but a passive-aggressive revenge fantasy.

              The Christian West (which does not include everyone) feels that it is performing a holy duty by preventing the spread of Islam, though, of course, the spread of Christianity is the same thing to Muslims. The West creates violence and oppression, Muslims react, just as any Christian in the West would if the tables were turned, and then Christians feel they have to keep this mad dog in check, blissfully ignorant of their own culpability. If Christians really cared about their own religion, they would be investing heavily in alternative fuel sources so they could cut their parasitic ties to the Middle East and re-establish civil and diplomatic relations with them. The need for fundamentalism would subside and maybe peace could have a chance. As long as Christians believe that Islam is wrong and that they need to interfere in the name of their God, we will continue to have war.

              1. GERALD-710 profile image59
                GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                So what you are saying is that when Mohammed himself anhiallated every jew in the Arabian peninsular.(Please read the Quran,man!)He was against 'western imperialism'???And could you pleses please please show many ANY ANY Case of christian persecution of muslims coz last I checked,it was aCHURCH that was bombed by Muslims yesterday in Central Nigeria. Did the West exist when Mohammed wrote the violent texts of the Quran and lauched a Jihad first by exterminating each and every jew in Arabia then proceeded on to destroy christianity in the Middle East.
                Nearly all muslims agree Apostacy= death,A lady marrying a christian=death and critisising Islam=death.Ask the Danish cartoonist
                Jesus never ever ever preached violence against anybody.Please open the pages towards the end of the Quran,they sound exactly like Murder INC.

                1. j-u-i-c-e profile image96
                  j-u-i-c-eposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Religious fundamentalism is bad. Current Islamic fundamentalism is fueled by anti-Western imperialism (tribalism). In the past, it was driven by the desire to conquer other tribes, just as OT Jews were driven, according to the Bible. If you're looking for some sort of argument, you won't find it here.

                  How do people become religious fundamentalists? By believing something that can't be proved is true and that people who don't believe it are not worth as much as people who do. I don't see any good coming out of that attitude, no matter what the belief is. Would Islamic fundamentalism be a problem if people stopped believing stories that told them 'God says we're the chosen people and everyone else is going to hell/should be put to death'? The fact that one religion is more moderate than the other doesn't change the fact that they both operate the same way psychologically. Religion isn't necessarily bad in itself, the problem arises when religious doctrine supports tribal violence/revenge fantasies. Buddhism doesn't have this problem. It's very hard to argue in favor of tribal violence using Buddhist texts. Western religious texts, by contrast, are an extended form of tribal doctrine. The whole concept of a chosen people is tribalism and permits and endorses tribal violence. Until people drop the tribal narrative, we're going to have war and conflict. Religious doctrine is simply used to justify violence and produce irrational rhetoric to drive people into a frenzy of us/them division.

                  The underlying motives (greed, fear) are the same regardless of the rhetoric, which is why people can use concepts like Communism, Nationalism, and eugenics to justify similar atrocities.

                  1. GERALD-710 profile image59
                    GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    There is nothing like Islamic Fundamentalism.Islam is a dominating ,brainwashing religion right from the first text of the Quran to the last (Please read one) Fundamentalism is and has always been a part of it otherwise how did the word Jihad enter the Quran.
                    Back to present day,How is Western Imperialism linked to the Boko Haram who want to establish Sharia over 80 million Nigerians
                    How is Western Imperialism linked to the North Sudanese ethincally cleansing sotherners coz they are christians or the Darfurians who do not practice the fanatic form of islam the Northerners do?
                    How is is related to the Christians who are repeatedly harrased in Iran,Pakistan and have always been long before there was even a USA.
                    Didn,t the Muslim rulers once slaughter 100,000 hindus in India in the name of Allah long before the British knew that they existed.

                    1. j-u-i-c-e profile image96
                      j-u-i-c-eposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      Fundamentalism has always been part of the entire Western religious tradition. In the OT, God told his chosen people to commit genocide on numerous occasions. God himself committed genocide repeatedly. Every religion that has followed from that tradition has contained that divine command implicitly. Read the Bible.

                      Is it surprising if Islam has taken this tradition further toward its logical extreme? They are just more extreme versions of Christians who waged war on the Middle East during the Crusades hundreds of years after Islam had already stopped expanding. They burned heretics during the Inquisition. They waged numerous wars in Europe over religion. They repeatedly engaged in pogroms against Jews, killing millions of them over the centuries. Islam now is just a younger version of Christianity. It's all consistent with a doctrine that promotes the interests of one group over another, that refuses to acknowledge that any other belief system might be correct. The more you argue in favor of the 'one truth', the more violence and bloodshed you bring into the world. I hope that rests easy on your conscience.

                      There may be a spiritual core in Western religion that promotes love and community, but it's typically buried under the judgmental bigotry of pedestrian tribalism. I don't see any difference between religious fundamentalism and racism. The only difference being that people align themselves by religion instead of race.

                      Of course not all world conflicts are based on Christianity. As I've said repeatedly, religion is merely used to justify violence and discrimination between tribes. Christianity is guilty of the same sins and any doctrine that lends itself to a warlike mentality needs to be dropped immediately. It seems exceedingly arrogant to claim it is somehow different or better just because the more comfortable living conditions of Christians in the West makes them appear more tolerant than their neighbors. A comfort that arose largely from the exploitation perpetuated on non-Christians by nominally Christian nations and by stealing the enormous wealth of 'heathens' because God told them it was all right.

                      And Christianity is equally brainwashing. Watch Jesus Camp if you like to see little children cry.

                  2. GERALD-710 profile image59
                    GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    There is nothing like Islamic Fundamentalism.Islam is a dominating ,brainwashing religion right from the first text of the Quran to the last (Please read one) Fundamentalism is and has always been a part of it otherwise how did the word Jihad enter the Quran.
                    Back to present day,How is Western Imperialism linked to the Boko Haram who want to establish Sharia over 80 million Nigerians
                    How is Western Imperialism linked to the North Sudanese ethincally cleansing sotherners coz they are christians or the Darfurians who do not practice the fanatic form of islam the Northerners do?
                    How is is related to the Christians who are repeatedly harrased in Iran,Pakistan and have always been long before there was even a USA.
                    Didn,t the Muslim rulers once slaughter 100,000 hindus in India in the name of Allah long before the British knew that they existed.

                    1. sen.sush23 profile image60
                      sen.sush23posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      I chose to answer this question/comment point wise.
                      First about Jihad. The context of the word Jihad was quite different from the one ascribed or understood by the present times. So, do not straightaway call islam a 'brainwashing' religion. It needs just as much contextual consideration, as does Christianity, as temporal expressions.

                      Point two, about how is Western Imperialism..etc. etc. Well! Every action has an equal and opposite reaction is a law that can be extended metaphysically too. Imperialism has left ugly, poisonous socio-political mandrakes and they are bound to scream, time to time, till equity is restored. So don't go asking naive questions. History has all answers. That being said, please note, I am not saying it is justified to do so, that is ethnic killing in any form.

                      Point three, what really are you getting at by saying 'Didn,t the Muslim rulers once slaughter 100,000 hindus in India in the name of Allah long before the British knew that they existed.' ? That was more that 500 years back, and if you go on referring so irrespective of time and history, then the debate is just getting out of context. Just to put you back in place, I would just ask you to read some history books on the history of the Indian sub-continent, understand it, and then make such references. The muslims who killed Hindus, didn't really have any religious agenda in doing so- it was just part of plunder - as these were mostly nomadic tribes. However, they did ultimately settle and make India their homeland, and India to this day is as much the country of the Indian muslims as the Indian hindus. You forgot to read the next chapter to the story of killing hindus; else you would have noted that the Hindus were some of the most notable leaders and statesmen, and artists in the Muslim court of the Mughals. So please don't venture beyond your subject of discussion, in trying to prove a point. It was Imperialistic Britain that sowed the seed of religious dissension in Indian soil much later, in the twentieth century and tore up the country!
                      Juice has given a reply to your points, but I could not control from making my point.

    3. oceansnsunsets profile image84
      oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years ago

      Boldly anti Christian Christians in here, that have their own personal reasons for siding against those making good arguments, using logic, reason and facts, and their put downs are compliments to honest people.

      Trying to demonize them won't work.  Supporting evil is anti God, no matter how you slice it, sorry.

      People that can't win debates, EVEN with intense put downs and negative behavior, will back out of debate, then still sling insults to others.  Its incredibly cowardly and super transparent.  Remember, it is kind to show someone how irrational they are, and I mean actually SHOW it, not just say it.  That goes for if they are lying, being illogical, and more, in a place where those things matter.  YOU, can say its being a poor witness or acting poorly or whatever you want to say, but it doesn't make it more true, besides being illogical. 

      When you support the opposite of good and true things, your statements also tend to mean the opposite of what you say.  I can't make that true, it just is.  Deal with reality please.  The implication of taking the distorting of Christianity here as the defense to keep on attacking it will never work.  Your anger and rage at what is obvious even when I am not here to point it out, is misdirected.  Look within.

      This is why some stopped debating and discussing with me.  It is because of what I have said above, and have been saying all along.  I guess I don't blame you, if you insist on bad ideas, thinking and reasoning.  I wouldn't either.  Not putting down there, I have shown when and where that happened.  Not being able to deal with reality of the situation creates this kind of frustration we keep seeing.  The judging I see of peoples standing, in regards to Christianity, shows that there is more at work here.  The judging of hearts, the thing only God can do, is done by another, and it began long ago.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        No, people stop debating with you because of you never actually say anything. Pages and pages and pages of nonsense gets old after a while.

    4. oceansnsunsets profile image84
      oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years ago

      I observe from this thread, many people expressing ideas in real time, (not ideas from centuries ago), where they actually contributing to making our world a worse place.   When examined, the things turn out not to be true, and when exposed, they don't think better, they just get more angry.  They are not encouraging freedom for ALL people, which would make the world a better place.

      Oh the irony... I have 100% confidence that one day, ALL will be made known to all.  All we be laid bare, and undeniable.  Even for those that insist in ongoing, perpetual denial now.  That is enough for me. I am not perfect, but I know what is true and what is false, and how logic works, and what facts of Christianity are, what Christ taught.  This has been an amazing exercise in observing human behavior.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Well - by your statements (and I am assuming you think you are following the teachings of Jesus) - you have certainly convinced me the world would be a better place with fewer Christians. wink

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
          oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You don't even make sense there Mark.  I observe that you just say things to say them, without back up.  You don't know what I do to live out my Christianity.  So you don't like how I debate and discuss?  I know why that is, and have pointed it out.  Jesus was a good guy, never did anything wrong. Not comparing myself to him, but look how much some people hated him, and needed him to die, and wanted him gone from the scene.

          Of course, you would like there to be less of people like me, I don't find that odd at all.  Not odd or one bit curious.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Without back up? You mean like the proven fact that the world would be a worse place without so many Christians? lol

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
              oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Mark, That is right.  Denial... yours is very strong.

              You can't forget history as it suits you when its undeniable and then just keep repeating yourself, laughing and mocking others.  As it suits you today, you seem as if you are going to love and embrace Islam and what it wanted to do and still does want, in this world?  That is what you would have to do to win your point there...

              I and others already know better than that.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Can you repeat that in English please?

              2. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I swear, sometimes you just throw up a bunch of words, whether they form actual sentences or not.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  LOOK UP, for your redemption is very, very close.

                  1. Cagsil profile image81
                    Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    So what? Your point being?

                  2. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    What do i need redemption for?

      2. A Thousand Words profile image76
        A Thousand Wordsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        While I admit and own up to my mistakes, I would insert that you are person, and I could be wrong, who is unmovable. Probably a trait you find admirable. I am not, in this context, using it as a compliment. But, I understand that is an important part of continuing in your faith. Let us not disturb you from your comfortable, established ways of thinking.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
          oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          The opposite is true actually.  This makes it sound like I could never be wrong, or think I am perfect or something.  I DO strive for good ideas and arguments, and value good over bad behavior. 

          You are wrong, because I keep inviting people to show where I am wrong, as I welcome that and we can discuss it.  I am against people being unmovable, or digging their feet in the sand, so to speak. If you disagree with me, we can have a great talk.  If you pull out tactics, and I point them out, how is that immovable?  It is true or not.  I apply my own standards to myself.  Show me something I ought to come down from?  What is wrong?  Is it really wrong, or do you just want it to be?  You insert another put down, and make this about something it is not.  Ok.... It has to be true to be true though.

          When I see people say things like that, and don't correct me on anything in particular, its a red flag.  If I misunderstood, do share, thanks.

    5. PhoenixV profile image64
      PhoenixVposted 7 years ago

      I think Mark's The Universe is here theory is wrong. Although it is without a doubt the most profound belief, philosophy or theory I think I have ever come across. I do not think it is accurate. I am currently developing a theory that will compete with Mark's The Universe is here theory.

      I am going to call it my - wherever you go, there you are theory.


      Unless Mark would honestly like to share his cosmological beliefs.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I already did. You just cannot understand. wink

        I mean - if you don't agree that the Universe is here, then what do we live in? Or are you going with the "nothing can be proven therefore my ridiculous assertions are as valid as anything" argument?

        1. PhoenixV profile image64
          PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Recently, one of your anti-christian compadres ridiculously made the claim that your insults were really just some kind of shorthand for some intellectual and well thought out response. Likewise, when I have cacophonous gastrointestinal quandaries you can consider them a 500 page thesis on your character.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Ah - more personal attacks. Like Jesus said to do I suppose? See how you are proving my point?

            1. PhoenixV profile image64
              PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              It is not my fault you make baby Leibniz cry.

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image84
                oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                lol making @ baby Leibniz cry

              2. Chris Neal profile image74
                Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                You should leave Mark alone. He holds us to a strict and simplistic version of Jesus' teachings, while he is free to pick and choose what standards he uses. It is his right, or at least his privilege in these forums, and to get into these arguments with him just wastes energy. Remember what Jesus said.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry you don't understand. It must be very frustrating for you.

                  Is that why you are so angry?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image74
                    Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    LOL lol

                    I honestly didn't think you had a sense of humor, Mark!

            2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

              12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

              13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

              14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

              15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

              16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

              17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

              18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

              19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

              20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
              Jesus

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Quoting scripture at me simply proves the point you are trying to make.

                I am not defiled by telling the truth. Just because you don't like it? Well - that is another matter. wink

                But - I understand how difficult it must be to come up with your own reasoning, so - I forgive you. Just don't do it again please.

                1. profile image0
                  AKA Winstonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Catch-22, Chapter 29, page 335:

                  "that's the way things go when you elevate mediocre people to positions of authority."

                  Amen.

              2. PhoenixV profile image64
                PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Thank you so much ShalahChayilJOY it is good to see you and your point is well taken and I apologize. In my own defense however, technically I wasn't speaking out of my heart in the last exchange. It was more of a "cast out into the draught" occasion.

                So glad to see you.

              3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Not to be rude... but you realize that could be equally true for you.

                I personally abhor anyone who uses the words 'Christ' and 'warrior' in the same breath.  I think it is an abomination to his lessons.  What makes a non-believer any worse than a believer who portrays Christ as war-like?

                Not attacking you... just showing you that you probably shouldn't judge others unless you apply the same standards to yourself... even then Christ said to not judge another master's servant.  Mark belongs to another master and you have no biblical right to pass judgement on his words or actions.  Therefore your judgments must be your own and certainly shouldn't be backed with scripture.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name. Exodus 15: 3

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. Isaiah 42:13

                    Jesus was not a pacifist buddah

                    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                      MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Then he was a warmonger and doesn't deserve my respect.  Proving the world would be better with fewer people following a war-monger.

                      My Christ is a pacifist... if you believe otherwise then the bobsy twins have to out you as a heretic. 

                      I'll be waiting on baited breath for that.

                      Otherwise thank you for not claiming Christianity... I would hate to have another person advocating violence in Christ's name.

                    2. PhoenixV profile image64
                      PhoenixVposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Very good. The Lord is capable and is victorious against those that actively strive against their maker.

                    3. oceansnsunsets profile image84
                      oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      That is right, Jesus was not a pacifist Buddha, and for someone to day that he was then a war monger, knowing what we know of Jesus is not in possession of knowledge and not facing the facts squarely head on.

                      Saying the Christians here are putting others down after all we have seen, is a mockery of truth, and whining while doing it.  Please people, when you don't have an argument or can't debate poor ideas that don't hold their own water, please know the weight is all on you, when you feel embarrassment or whatever comes from behaving in such ways. Everyone sees it, anyway, just letting you know.

                2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Then, Melissa, you do not know the REAL Christ. NOR do you KNOW HIS true purpose.

                  Those that put Yeshua in a box and believe HE was a pacifist are dead wrong.
                  Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2: 16

                  so you abhor the REAL JESUS Yeshua and worship the one YOU invented in your mind.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    I guess that blows the argument that following the teachings of Christ has never harmed anyone right the hell out of the water.

                    Thank you for proving everyone's point.  The world would indeed be better with more Buddhists.

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      What are the teachings of Christ, Melissa?
                      32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

                      33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

                      34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

                      35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

                      36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

                      37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


                      38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

                      39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

                      40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

                      41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

                      42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

                  2. Jerami profile image67
                    Jeramiposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Jesus told us to turn the other cheek,  Love our enemies   BECAUSE ..
                      Vengeance is Mine saith the Lord.

                       We may not know it when we are fighting against a servant of the Lord.

                       They will think they are killing in the name of the Lord when in fact they are  NOT;                                     
                      A warrior for Christ ???  only by revealing Christ in us, as a pacifist willing to be a martyr if necessary.

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Thanks Jerami,

                      I am not a Christian. I do not claim to be a Christian.

                      I have a personal relationship with YHVH, my Father, Yeshua, MY Savior and KING, and I am HIS Servant Warrior.

                      Yes, there are times to be silent. However there are times when one must speak up. Yeshua is so much more than we make HIM out to be.

                      What I am trying to say is
                      Everyone needs to quit trying to pinhole Christ or those that are trying their damned best to follow him

                      and start looking at their own faults, sins, transgressions etc
                      I know mine and where i don't yet see them My Father shows me and I confess my faults to HIM and I ask HIM to forgive me

                      yet, i have been ridiculed, belittled, 'shamed' etc. for what?
                      for being who I am at this point
                      is being defensive a sin?
                      i do not see that in the word
                      so i got emotional
                      am i supposed to be ashamed of that?
                      that's what i hear

    6. profile image0
      SirDentposted 7 years ago

      Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

      Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

      Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

      Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

      Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

      Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    7. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 7 years ago

      Your reading skills are good, and you quote like a pro! Ever have a thought of your own, or are you practicing to be a parrot?

    8. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 7 years ago

      Well said!

    9. Jerami profile image67
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago

      Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

      Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
      = - = - =

      me
        I wonder why this shows Christ with blood covered clothing and yet his army were unblimished from battle?
        Christ had a two edged sword and his army unarmed?

        I'm just wondering?

    10. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 7 years ago

      The two edged sword is truth, the vesture dipped in blood was the sacrifice. The sacrifice and resurrection was the victory. The same sword protects those who follow...truth.

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Who are you talking at ?

    11. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 7 years ago

      Not sure where you're comin' from Shalah

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        being defensive...
        is that a sin

        These guys enjoy picking on the 'weak' in their eyes...

        do we not all have weaknesses?
        Where I am weak, HE is strong?

        some people believe that God is a whore-monger murdered when He in HIS wisdom takes evil people out of the world

        They fail to SEE HIS wisdom and LOVE in that and that that is protecting the whole from being destroyed by the wickedness

        what arrogance
        I know God doesn't need me to defend HIM
        but I don't believe for one minute that HE is ashamed of me

        He is doing a much deeper work in my soul. And perhaps I still have some rage and venom poison in me at being ridiculed, 'shamed' demeaned

        etc
        that's how religious people try to control and manipulate others
        and that's what I'm wrestling
        I know those "spirits"

        from childhood
        Where I am weak, He is MY strength.
        so am I supposed to shut up and

        allow the ridiculing, the shaming, the demeaning to continue
        or continue pointing it out UNTIL it is recognized

        there are at least three of us doing it and the ones doing it refuse to see it

        is showing strong emotions WRONG?
        MY God MY Father HAS been working compassion in me for the weak they pick on

    12. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years ago

      Oh and yelling at me is going to get through to me how irrational I am.  So now expressing my emotions is irrational. Damn.

      No, I get healed meditating on the scripture. HE is the WORD, therefore HE heals me.

      and yes, I am weak in areas where I have yet to be healed.  HE is my strength.

      Thanks for holding back
      if you mean ridicule and demeaning is compassion, duh

      I am IN HIM and HE is in ME
      When HE consumes everything then I'll be perfect...

      I have not demanded perfection of anyone
      I have tried to point out

      ridicule
      demeaning words
      potentially hurtful words
      Yes, I bring up the authority of scripture because it is my standard and my foundation

      show me where I have ridiculed anyone
      I am pointing out
      words that are damaging

      irrational or emotional
      so YOU're going to belittle me into being more like YOU imagine I should be

      duh
      IN just three more days we who have come to know and love and continue to folow and learn from will celebrate RECEIVING TORAH...the HOLY ORACLE of our Creator

      IN three more days we will be empowered with that two-edged sword that will divide asunder between soul and spirit

      and then the wicked will either turn to HIM because they SEE HIM more clearly and their own wickedness and corruptness as loathsome to HIM and to themselves or they will continue to cloak themselves in darkness and fight against the TRUTH

      I am not condemning anyone...
      i am being attacked by the principality of condemnation i know from my childhood

      I am saying

      before you ridicule someone think about it
      it does nothing but incite defensiveness
      is that your purpose?

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Three days? Whats going to happen then?

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I shudder in anticipation of the answer.  I fear that it's just going to make Christians look that much more daft.

        2. livelonger profile image92
          livelongerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          She's talking about Shavuot (what Christians call Pentecost). Nothing happens. It's an annual holiday that celebrates the revelation of Torah at Sinai.

          Jews study Torah and enjoy dairy foods. I have no idea what Christians do, or why they celebrate it considering they don't follow Torah.

          1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
            ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, but more and more "Christians" are coming out of Christianity and into TORAH! because it is their true heritage.

            and the Spirit of YAHVEH is coming to fill HIS TEMPLE and shine like the brightness of the sun on Shavuot. HE is gathering the outcasts of Israel to HIMSELF a mighty army.

            check out Passion for Truth
            House of David  Curt Landry
            Glory of Zion Chuck Pierce Corinth TX

            wickedness will be consumed by HIS FIRE.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Oh my...  Good luck if you choose to defend your faith L.L.  May you have more success than I did defending mine from her perversions.

              1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Deleted

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  So Jesus is 'your faith'? He is  not a PERSON in HIS OWN RIGHT?

                  That explains the entire issue

                  Five blind men were standing next to an elephant
                  One said, It is like a wall

                  NO, said another, it is like a rope
                  NO, said another, it is like a tree
                  NO, said another, it is like

                  and the elephant IS like all of those things
                  poor analogy, but the idea is the same
                  <link snipped>

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    You likely couldn't understand my faith and I have no real desire to explain it to others...  It would be too much like attempting to convert someone to my faith and nothing would sicken me more than to know I swayed someone to a faith they didn't believe in all on their own.

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Father LOVES you with an everlasting LOVE you cannot even begin to fathom. It is deeper than the oceans and higher than the skies. It is not contained in any human ideas that can be comprehended.

                      HIS Is an all consuming FIRE and JEALOUS for your affection and attention. HE longs to REVEAL HIMSELF more and more to YOU

                      and the way HE reveals HIMSELF to you will be in ways YOU will recognize HIM.

                      i am sorry that YOU can't see HIS IMAGE IN ME...

                      some can and that's all that matters
                      There are principalities and powers and rulers of the darkness that can be brought down ONLY BY WARRIORS, Melissa

                      I really don't enjoy fighting people..

                      Those principalities, powers and rulers of darkness appear often as angels of light...purporting peace when there is none...
                      Father's LOVE cannot be comprehended by our minds. IT has to be KNOWN in the innermost part --- we are spirit like HIM.

                      Spirit is LIGHT, CONSUMING FIRE, brilliance that at first blinds.

                      ah, Father just showed me what he was doing...
                      how can i apologize for WHO HE IS IN ME?

                      Can two opposite views be true at the same time?
                      YES

                      When you are looking to the NORTH your view is true
                      When you are looking to the SOUTH your view is true

                      I am a WARRIOR
                      YOUR function is different.
                      I KNOW MY calling and purpose

                      do don't condemn what you don't understand
                      i condemned no one
                      i condemned belittling words

                      I KNOW a gentle, kind, healing YESHUA as well

                      To everything there is a time and purpose under heaven
                      a time to love
                      a time to hate
                      a time to rejoice
                      a time to mourn

                      KNOW THE TIME
                      <link snipped - no promotional links>

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Maybe they like dairy foods?  I don't celebrate it but I wish you a happy one if you and your SO are.

            1. livelonger profile image92
              livelongerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Haha, maybe. I doubt it's anything that mundane. I'll be going to a local synagogue for their dinner + discussion series. I've gone for a few years and always love it. One of the sessions is called "That's Not a Problem Here: Textual Basis for LGBT Inclusion" - would probably make the Talibangelicals' heads explode.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Sounds interesting.  I wish we had something like that more organized around here.  I also wish we had more access to Jewish food.  Is that irreverent?  Anyway a few more Evangelical heads exploding would likely not make too much of a difference... and my patience has worn thin enough that I would likely not mind actually watching it.  I'm hot and grumpy and have very little tolerance for stupid people right now.  Unfortunately in my current mood that includes many more people than usual.

                1. livelonger profile image92
                  livelongerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL! I'm not a fan of most (Ashkenazi) Jewish foods myself, but a nice puffy blintz? Hey, I've got to celebrate (it is a mitzvah). wink

        3. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
          ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          In three days I'll be more pacifist like the Christ they think I should be.

    13. profile image54
      Dwallposted 7 years ago

      Nope and thats wrong to say sir im a christian got a problem with us

    14. profile image54
      Dwallposted 7 years ago

      ill pray for u u nead it

      1. LadyMacabre profile image58
        LadyMacabreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Praying for people that don't believe in God is... Ridiculous.

    15. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
      EinderDarkwolfposted 7 years ago

      This thread right here, with all these Christians jumping in to do nothing more that fight about how their religion is right, on a forum specifically dedicated to those who choose not to believe, is exactly why people are developing such a problem with them. To make things worse, most of these Christians aren't even trying to just talk, they a belligerently trying to force others to say their right. What is going to make that even worse though, is that you can easily pull up the hubpages forums with a google search, and with over 3,000,000,000 people using google, all it's going to do is show people exactly why they SHOULDN'T dedicate themselves to a religion that seems to be boarding on fanaticism.

      Yet, it won't stop. As long as they keep getting something to refute or try to refute, they won't stop. Clear intentions of coming into a forum for no other reason than to pick a fight, at least in my opinion.

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        as long as people are in the flesh, that's how the world will be

        it has nothing to do with religion although religion is cooked up by fleshly men and women

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You are right... of course.

      3. oceansnsunsets profile image84
        oceansnsunsetsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks for your opinion Einder.  The Christians here that aren't taking things laying down, are actually making fair points from what I see. (I admit I haven't read everything however.)  You too could have chimed in on what they are saying is wrong.  You also blame them for problems in the world, and seem to turn a blind eye on how they are treated.  I think all people should be allowed to voice their opinions without such open animosity, and the suggestion that Christians here should be just quiet, not asking for more (like I have been, since I joined this thread), isn't going to fly. 

        I wonder also about outsiders coming in and seeing this.  The types of people I have been talking to, and those that gave up and "took their ball home," aren't helping HubPages out at all.

        When people act like I am observing, its a good thing to show it, and ask them to stop it.  To not want to, and even to not be able to shows a deeper problem.  Trying to blame it on the ones getting treated the way they are ongoing isn't helpful.  Be a force for good!  Try to help the world be a better place! Test to see what I am actually saying to them, and you can decide for yourself, am I trying to just fight?  Would using more of what I keep on requesting help to prevent fights?  Yes!

      4. Chris Neal profile image74
        Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Unlike in the forums that are dedicated to belief, right? No unbeliever ever goes in there doing anything remotely like it, right?

        I prefer debate and discussion, but come on. Double standards are unattractive no matter which side is using it.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          So - making up lies to defend your faith is debate and discussion? lol

          1. Chris Neal profile image74
            Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Forget it, Mark. I haven't lied to you, or anybody else. Nice try.

    16. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 7 years ago

      And the thread gets closed for a high number of personal attack reports... I'm actually all for it.

    17. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 7 years ago

      Do you treat everyone you love like they need you to educate them? I got a hot date for ya. You both have so much in common. Interested?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Only the ignorant religionists. Still interested? Odd you don't see the irony - this is how Christianity works. Remember?

        Still - if you have to explain it............

        1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
          ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Shalom Mark,

          I have to really thank YHVH for you! I believe, "All things work together for true good for them that are learning to 'love' and follow and cling to HIM, and who are called according to HIS purpose."

          IN spite of yourself, OUR true FATHER used your manner of expressing yourself to take me back to a place in time that I was deeply, deeply and mortally wounded by such speech as comes out of your mouth. Because of that wound I could not see or perceive clearly. But now I can see more clearly because there was a lie that was rooted out of my soul that had been lodged there since my earliest childhood. That lie is gone, exposed. Thanks for taunting me with the lie that I am not worth having a discussion with...

          because you don't get me, not because there is something wrong with me...: -}

          I had to fight to declare what I know..

          So I thank our YAH for YOU, actually. I have something to say, and it will be heard by many around the world...

          I will pay to no man the reward of evil; I will pursue him with goodness.

          For judgement of all the living is with God And it is He who will render to man his reward.     (1QS X, 17–18)

          They were to be truthful, humble, just, upright, charitable and modest. They were to watch in community for a third of every night of the year, to read the Book and to study the Law and to bless together.        (1QS VI, 7–8)

          These are, as may be seen, mostly the sort of recommendations to be expected of men devoting themselves to contemplation. . . .

          An additional distinctive trait of these sectaries (Judges YSH is restoring to the earth now note added by Shalah) is that another qualification was required of them besides holiness: they were expected to become proficient in the knowledge of the ‘two spirits’ in which all men ‘walk’, the spirits of truth and falsehood, and to learn how to discriminate between them.
          They were taught in the so-called ‘instruction concerning the Two Spirits’, the earliest Jewish theological tractate incorporated into the Community Rule, how to recognize a ‘son of Light’ or potential ‘son of Light’, and how to distinguish a ‘son of Darkness’ belonging to the lot of Belial (1QS

          Vermes, Geza. The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English (pp. 27-28). Penguin UK. Kindle Edition.

          It's not that my ego was in the way, it was that i had a deep old unhealed wound...Had I not known YAH as My Shield, your manner of expressing your views and strongly held beliefs very well could have done more damage than good.

          as you pointed out to me your view i was doing...

          How is it that those that know our Father and true Source of life, light and truth could see that I was being very patient and not attacking at all, but not you?

          Were you abused and bullied in your childhood? Because those that are do one of two things--they identify either with the victim mentality

          or with the bully mentatlity
          I have vacillated between both and I am not proud of either
          I am neither a victim, nor a bully

          which are you?
          bullies are victims, victims of hatred of the 'weak' part of self that allowed themselves to be bullied

          or felt they had no choice but to stand by and watch those they loved be bullied

          I know others like that and they hate what they view as the 'weak' part of theirself---the part Father intended to be kind, gentle, sensitive and truly caring and loving

          the intellect can cause us to be so proud and egotistical that we forget the tenderness of being truly wise and truly human and loving.

          been there, done that to those I claimed to most love.
          and it grieves me when I remember or am reminded.

          those old deep wounds can be healed so that all can see the tender=hearted man you are, Mark

          I see it now. You do care, only those of us that know our Father and 'God' as the world calls 'Him' can never be persuaded He is not real

          you're fighting a losing battle on that front and wasting your time there with intellectual words that make you feel smart and too cool

          when I get to a place where I hate what God did or how He is doing something, I tell HIM i hate Him

          why don't you try that
          lightning is not going to strike you dead
          He told me that you guys were not going to be banned...and why...

          so see He did not give me my childish way...am I mad, no, not at all

          with that old wounds poison cleaned out, I can see much more clearly
          you're kinda a good guy after all, not that it matters coming from me, i know

          but for all it's worth, I thank our Father for you and how He healed an old wound that needed healing
          bless you

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I think it is awesome that you think you are healed and have found ways to assuage your various guilts.

            Please don't make the erroneous assumption that you are like me. Sadly - I don't believe in majik and cannot make the necessary "leap of faith," or - as I prefer - "suspension of disbelief."

            I prefer to be honest with myself and accept the darker aspects of me that make me me. In the meantime, I will continue to educate the ignorant and remind them that they are causing conflict in this world by believing in another majikal world.

            Hey - whatever helps you through the day, say I! But - it belongs in your head, not expressed in such a condescending and un-loving fashion as you just expressed yourself. You don't know me at all and are so wrapped up in your own issues that what you just said is all about you - not me. You just cannot see that.

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I said, been through it already.

              so, you accept your darker side and feel no need to rise above it?
              is that what I hear you saying then?

              you rather like it...
              feel no need to conquer what causes you to be so caustic yourself..
              I see how I could be coming across as

              "condescending and un-loving fashion as you just expressed yourself. You don't know me at all and are so wrapped up in your own issues that what you just said is all about you - not me. You just cannot see that."

              What is this? "I will continue to educate the ignorant and remind them that they are causing conflict in this world by believing in another majikal world."

              that's not condescending and un-loving? because that is how others view it..and you don't see it, yourself.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                As I said - I tend to reflect back at people the way they are to me.

                What I said is the truth. Your majikal beliefs cause you to behave badly towards others. Then you get upset when they reflect that back at you.

                You have not heard anything I said and - apparently heard things I did not say. lol

                All about you. wink

                Why not keep your majikal beliefs to yourself instead of shouting SCRIPTURE at me and complaining to Hubpages when people point out how irrational and obnoxious you are being?

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  so, it's everyone else's fault you talk the way you talk?

                  I do love your Hubs, they are written beautifully and the recipes make me hungry.

                  I do use scripture a lot out of defensiveness because..
                  it or He provides a sense of acceptance and affirmation that was sadly lacking in my life too long.

                  and while I am reminding myself of how I want to act, I 'share generously' with others.

                  Have you ever convinced anyone their faith or belief in Jesus wasn't worth it for all of your trying? do you truly believe you ever will?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    No - I choose to reflect them and take full responsibility for my choice. Odd you need to hear things I did not say - again.

                    You use scripture as an attack - like all Christians do. You started out by attacking me and jumped into a conversation I was having with some one else. The very first thing you did was shout SCRIPTURE that you do not understand at me.

                    Yes - several people have understood themselves through interacting with me and changed the way they see things.

                    Your lack of understanding of Jesus and mistaken belief that he is a person external to you is something you need to get out of the way before you can really understand that message. Once you internalize it instead of believing in external majik - you might get it.

                    Just for a moment imagine that Jesus is an aspect of you and not a majikal super being for a moment. wink

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      No - I choose to reflect them and take full responsibility for my choice. Odd you need to hear things I did not say - again.

                      >>>>
                      I am telling you what I believe I heard. I am sorry I take it in a way you don't mean or intend. That's the issue among people, not so much being a Christian or not.



                      You use scripture as an attack - like all Christians do. You started out by attacking me and jumped into a conversation I was having with some one else. The very first thing you did was shout SCRIPTURE that you do not understand at me.

                      >>>> I use scripture to defend myself. IF it feels like an attack, well, it feels like an attack. I am defending myself, not trying to attack others.

                      Yes - several people have understood themselves through interacting with me and changed the way they see things.

                      >>>>>
                      whoa there. I am coming to understand myself because I believe that Ruach HaKodes is showing me using you. And I care enough to want to change and grow.

                      Your lack of understanding of Jesus and mistaken belief that he is a person external to you is something you need to get out of the way before you can really understand that message. Once you internalize it instead of believing in external majik - you might get it.

                      >>>>>>
                      Yeshua lives in me. Growth takes time. If you spoke with people that know me from years ago and who know me now, they would tell you i have grown. And those that see the gift in me that draw it out appreciate me sharing the WORD.
                      I do use it defensively to try to 'prove' what I understand about my self, about my calling and about my function. That is, apparently, where I am at fault.

                      That has to do with having been isolated and not really learning to socialize for reasons I will not go into. It would sound like whining to you.


                      Just for a moment imagine that Jesus is an aspect of you and not a majikal super being for a moment. wink

                      >>>>>>>>>>
                      When I say Yeshua is my Father, my Husband, my KING, my Messiah etc. I am not referring to Him as a Person outside of me, but as figuratively representative of those functions in my life for lack of a better word.

                      I have internalized these truths that have healed me of rejection and abandonment issues
                      "He has made us accepted in the beloved."
                      "God has not sent us a spirit of fear but of power...and a sound mind."
                      and when someone tells me I am irrational, I get defensive and emotional and I feel attacked---can you understand that? Then I bring out the 'authority' to defend my sense of self. Not always, sometimes I do let it go and let my Father defend me. I have seen Him defend me many times.

                      I am not a Christian. Christianity was started by a pagan Emperor in the 4th century. Just because I believe in Yeshua--and speak a lot of what is labeled "Christian" does not make me a Christian. I do not believe in Christmas or Easter.

                      I do celebrate the Father's appointed FEASTS the weekly Sabbath, the monthly Rosh Chodesh, Passover, Shavuot which is right now and the Harvest In-Gathering.  And I celebrate Chanuckah because I see in it the cleansing of the Temple and Restoration of the KINGDOM as a shadow of what Messiah is doing now. I consider myself to be a Ruth-- a gentile that is being re-gathered into the kingdom of Yeshua.

                      I also am not practicing Judaism. I just see the fulfillment of prophecy in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Revelation, and Ephesians just to name a few places it is found being fulfilled.

                      I see where I am being presumptuous...that I can admit. cool

                      The thought occurred to me that, Your excellent hubs make Hubpages too  much money for them to ban you...and believe me I intend to learn a thing or two from them.

        2. GERALD-710 profile image59
          GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          @Mark,If you hate Christians so Much why are you
          Living in a Nation founded by christians,where christians are a majority,where even the symbols of Government are christian???Why not move to the Czech republic and leave the rest of us Fanatics in Peace to destroy ourselves?

          1. A Thousand Words profile image76
            A Thousand Wordsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Because we all have the right to live in the country we were born, and for it's judicial system and everything else not to be monopolized by a group of people with small thinking. I don't have a problem with many Christians, and many ideas in Christianity. I have a problem with people who place their own personal/religious comfort and ignorant desires above other peoples rights simply because they don't agree. Eventually the constitution will prevail, if there is an honest politician/judge/whomever else out there left.

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Of the increase of [his] [God's, YHVH's, Elohim's, Yeshua's, ElShaddai's, Adonai's]  government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:7

              This is occurring all over the world now, at this time. It is the Day of Adonai [Captain of the Hosts of Angels that War, Gather and Minister].

              He [Adonai, Yeshsua] shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young. Isaiah 40: 11

              The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Isaiah 56:8

              Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. Ezekiel 11: 17

              And this is what those that YHVH has called are ordered to do:
              Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. James5: 10

              It's really not about right or wrong, good or bad. Man is incapable of distinguishing between them since the serpent deceived Eve and Adam defied Father's instruction and chose to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

              It is about coming back into relationship with the One Who Is and was and IS to Come. And the only way to do that is to turn away from going one's own way and turn back to Yeshua. Yeshua does not hate anyone.

              YHVH is life. YHVH is light. YHVH is a love beyond any love that can possibly be known with only another human being. YHVH knows the deepest needs of our heart and only He is capable of fulfilling that deep need for live that never, ever leaves.

              Elohim prepared the most perfect place imaginable for the man and his wife. Enter the deceiver.. has 'elohim' really said, you shall die? 

              no, he knows if you partake of this fruit you'll be like Him...knowing good and evil----but that was a lie

              Only YHVH is capable of truly loving us as we long to be loved, accepted, affirmed in our humanness and known in our innermost being. We are spirit, like Him made in His likeness and in His image

              the pleasures of the senses were created as a gift to be enjoyed by humans to be fruitful and multiply and to enjoy fully the gift of procreation

              Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights above for us to enjoy.  Yet, He wants us to know Him and be able to enjoy Him more than the gifts He gives.

              Parents delight in giving their children gifts and seeing the joy on their faces. I think a lot of them take more pleasure in their children loving them more than the things they give their children. Some have no time for their children and substitute things and that is not the Father who longs to give of Himself to us..

              The TORAH was given to a people that were just led out of a land where they were enslaved and made to labor under hard bondage to build a kingdom for Egyptian Pharaohs.

              The same Creator that prepared Eden for man, that had called Abraham out of his country to follow Him and to receive the promise of descendants more numerous than the stars and than the sands of the seas, and that vowed to

              restore all things as they were even better than in the beginning

              and Who is in the process of so doing...
              No one enjoys hearing 'you're wrong' and that is definitely the wrong approach for those that have been called and already gathered to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of YHVH to take when trying to share their experience...

              religion is tyranny

              But the Father is not a tyrant! Father is a good Person who has given instruction, teaching, knowledge of the Truth, Mercy, Grace, and who is full of goodness, kindness, gentleness, and yet still firm in giving the knowledge of what constitutes life or death

              He is life

              partaking of the pleasures of the flesh apart from knowing the true purpose for which He gave them to us is to partake of death---it is to be enslaved to sense knowledge only, bowed down under a master that seems good, but prevents us from knowing an even greater and deeper pleasure

              the infilling of His Spirit which is so much more satisfying and fulfilling than any sense knowledge pleasure can ever be

              It's not only homosexuality, it's adultery, gluttony, pride [ego], jealousy, fornication, strife, contentions, self-promotion, lusts which include a whole lot of variations, murder which also includes using the tongue or words to belittle, shame, humiliate, condemn etc.

              Our Creator longs to lift us up above all of this. I have turned my back on Him more than once because He failed to give me what I was so convinced I needed. I have screamed at Him that I hated Him because of the flesh, the carnal senses.

              Never once did He cast me away, but waited with open arms for me to come to my senses and return to His protection and to receive deeper understanding and more infilling. This past weekend on Shavuot, the pouring out of His Spirit around the world on hungry, thirsty souls, He delivered me from a spirit of jealousy--called a strongman that was given permission to take control over me as a child-----by Him...

              Because He knew that I would overcome and conquer through Him and be freed from its hateful bondage and tyranny at this time. That thing caused me to retaliate in defense of 'self' and my woundedness. It also blinded me from being able to more fully receive the chesed HE is.

              And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, [continue hearing and obeying] say, Come. And let him that is thirsty, come: And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22: 17

              Father is not interested in condemnation, in shaming, in belittling, in humiliating, in provoking others to feel attacked and get defensive! That is a religious spirit, not the Father!

              Father is not interested in having to refuse anyone His chesed.

              But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.  Isaiah 64: 6

              Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow, though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1: 18

              reason together:) to prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct, be right

              a) (Hiphil)

              1) to decide, judge

              2) to adjudge, appoint

              3) to show to be right, prove

              4) to convince, convict

              5) to reprove, chide

              6) to correct, rebuke

              b) (Hophal) to be chastened

              c) (Niphal) to reason, reason together

              d) (Hithp) to argue

              It's called midrashing and it leads to a greater understanding of who He is. So, in a way, those that keep saying those that claim to believable in 'God' need to be kind and gentle and gracious are right. But they must also point out what is abhorrent to the Father...

              And that is extremely difficult because it feels like a personal attack when it is only a correction of a behavior that is deadly to the person bound in its grasp.

              I have been guilty of pride [ego] for sure! But assurance, confidence in Him and in knowing His calling and in being assertive and sure of knowing the Truth who is a person is far from ego, it is utmost humility--not false humility which is lying down and letting everyone wipe their feet on you.

              that is not what a Christian or One who knows Yahveh does...

              And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11: 26

              disciple is one who learns from his teacher, who lives, eats, breathes, and sleeps with following his teachers every move to learn.... d - i - s - c - i -p - l - i - n - e

              self constraint

              Which makes for peace. It begins with self.

              And that is what Mark is trying to say...I get it. But only Ruach HaKodesh can empower us to walk in the spirit and not in the sense knowledge realm only.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image76
                A Thousand Wordsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Aside from all the religious jargon, scriptures, and all...

                Forcing your religion and system of values on people who don't believe in Christ won't save them. As a Christian, Christ follower, however you label yourself, isn't it your job to "be like Christ" and "share Christ" with people? Not forcing your values on people who differ from what you consider (and even worse, what you claim God considers) different from the norm. What was Jesus' most important commandment again? Love thy neighbor as thyself? I'm sorry, how does denying someone who believes and lives differently from you "loving them?" It seems the only one who benefits is you. You feel like you're doing "God's work," and so you excuse your actions. Well, last time I checked according to modern Christian theology, people go to Hell, including gays, whether you try to dictate their lifestyles or not. If you really want to "reach" and "love" people, denying them their right to marry and calling their actions an abomination helps no one.

                At the end of the day, there are people who suffer more than many people could imagine who wish with ever fiber of their being that they were straight. But they just aren't. And they're not awful for it, and no different from anyone else, and don't deserve to be denied any rights because of it.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Who is forcing any beliefs on anyone? I am simply, as everyone else here saying what I have come to know.

                  It is not to condemn anyone. It is not to shame, ridicule, belittle, humiliate or in any other way disparage anyone.

                  I know what it is to be so convinced that what I was doing was right. I know what it is!

                  I was so convinced that something I was doing was right when it was a counterfeit of the real kind of chesed Father has to give.

                  My son also prayed and cried and begged God to deliver him from his attraction to men, and when that did not happen, he concluded God made him that way. That would be a natural conclusion.

                  I was emotionally entangled with his father for almost 25 years and I convinced myself that God had married us because the feeling of being accepted, 'affirmed', appreciated, and the chemical high that the sex we engaged in produced all added up to my being 'bound' in sense knowledge and not knowing the chesed of our Creator. I know what it feels like to be in torment because my basic human need for 'respect', love and honor was not being met and turning to some created being instead of to the only One that is able to heal, to clean out the hurts [wounds] and refill those wounded places in the soul with Himself.

                  I do know the torment of feeling worthless, useless, so lonely I wanted to die, and being harassed by the thought of suicide for over 40 years. I do know!

                  And then having a man that delighted in 'adding notches to his belt' and seducing women to inflate his ego....

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image76
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    But your story is not the same as anyone else's, as mine isn't either. You believe what you believe strongly. I know that. I respect that. I'm not saying you can't share your views. I'm saying you can't expect your views (I mean you as in Christians in general and you personally) to monopolize the political arena because as much as it may hurt you, the real truth is that not everyone's a Christian.

                    I used to be one. I remember the security. The Joy. The feeling that I and everyone else on this planet was a special child of God, that some were going to go to Hell because of their actions. I "knew" that God loved me and that the Holy Spirit communed with me and I with Him. I experienced interesting phenomena. I don't rule out the possibility of something out there that's hard to explain and mysterious, but I no longer fill in the gaps. I no longer rely on my emotions to make "spiritual" decisions. I use my brain. The brain that the God you believe in supposedly gave me. If it is a sin to do so, then your God shouldn't have created me and I'd have nothing to worry about. But I'm alive and breathing. And I won't apologize for it. I shouldn't have to. No one should. If in the End, He is real, and He decides to cut me off, then shame on Him, but I'll have to deal with the "consequences." Considering I don't think your Judeo-Christian God exists, however, I think I'll be alright. wink

              2. jacharless profile image76
                jacharlessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Finally, someone posted it. Thank you, whomever you are.
                James

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  If that were true - y'all would be walking in the spirit instead of... Oh wait. Here you are - claiming esoteric understanding................lol

                  1. jacharless profile image76
                    jacharlessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    lol, it is funny hearing a fellow Brit use the word ya`ll.
                    Half the time, I still have trouble understanding Southern Americana lingo.

                  2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    And oh how heavenly it is to walk in the spirit instead of the flesh, to be more aware of what's real beyond the veil of plain human understanding.

                    I was a master at keeping out love and really going after those that tried to love me. I drove everyone away that tried. I was a real brat that defied anyone to keep on loving me in spite of my spiteful, hateful, attacks and biting remarks. I bet I beat even Mark and Cagsill...at one time in my sorry existence in my deep woundedness and protecting my right to be bitter

                    As they say, it takes one to know one. Am I proud of that---nope. It's just a fact. I breathed fire!

                    It all sprang out of deep, deep hurts and such unbearable pain I wanted to die...yet, most of the time I was just numb and had no sensitivity whatsoever to anyone else's pain.

                    And when feeling started to return due to sensational _ _ _ I was convinced that was life and being alive when all it was was sense knowledge. And when God began to cut that old stuff off me, I screamed and yelled and told Him I hated him and stomped on my bibles

                    as on can tell, no lightning
                    but i healed and now I know the Person of chesed after going to hell and back

            2. Chris Neal profile image74
              Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              The irony is that Mark lives in France...

          2. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            What a ridiculous comment. All you have done is proven you are incapable of rational thought.

            I don't hate Christians - I love them, but hate their ridiculous beliefs - and want to help educate them out of their dangerous superstitions.

            1. jacharless profile image76
              jacharlessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              "Love thine enemies; doing only good to those who disdain you;"
              Nice Marcus, this is a new side of you I am seeing. Kewl Beans.

    18. daisyf1305 profile image74
      daisyf1305posted 7 years ago

      God is unity, love, joy, hope, faith, trust, union....The day we as humans over look how we differ in our worshipping the world will be a more serene and peaceful place.

      Less Christains more it doesn't matter it's behind the lines of loving the source and not picking mine is better than yours. Humans never get over their toddler years for some reason....

      Love, kisses, peace...
      Daisy

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        How can one trust in an illusion perpetuated by one's own ego? And no, you don't have to answer. Just thought it was a valid question.
        I would agree with this statement as long as believers stay out of other people's life with their beliefs/worshiping.
        lol
        Only some, those who are gullible and believe in the illusion their ego created are the ones doing the most damage.

    19. LadyMacabre profile image58
      LadyMacabreposted 7 years ago

      Yes.
      I know that may sound incredibly harsh, but as someone that has experienced both the good and the bad of the Christian faith, I can honestly say that I would be much happier if there were less Christian's and more Buddhist.
      Buddhist live a life of peace and calm, and most Christian's live a life of condemning, hatred, homophobia and misogyny. I think that the world would be much more peaceful if violent and hate filled religious people just didn't exit. I don't have something against ALL Christians, just those that believe their beliefs are the only ones that can be taken seriously and insist on throwing it in people's faces.

      1. brittvan22 profile image81
        brittvan22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        @ LadyMac, I certainly can understand you position, I have had good and bad experiences with my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, however for me its not the issue that they are Christians, but if their belief structure is more fundamentalist, is what makes them,THE WORST. If you are a fundamentalist Christian, Jews, Muslim, Buddhaist, WATCH OUT! I also like to look at it is there are bad and good everywhere in everyone of us. I did a question asking was the bible texts of terror or liberating literature. For me it is both, you have examples where virgins are raped, concubines are sacrificed to strangers, raped, thrown at the door, killed, and cut up, and their body sent to the 12 tribes. Then, there are liberating texts, where Jesus heals the crippled woman and denounces the scribes and Pharisees for their harsh treatment of her. People will be people.

        1. LadyMacabre profile image58
          LadyMacabreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I agree. In what I said, I never stated that I thought ALL Christian's should not exist. I have many friends that are religious, believe in God, and I love them with all my heart. These, and maybe you too, are the type of people that I would love to see more of. They are the type of people that I would like to see becoming popular instead of Fred Phelps and others of his kind. As a Pansexual [Bisexual, if that makes it easier] woman, I have been harassed by people because of their firm belief in something that is a little bit iffy in the Bible. As a woman, I have been harassed by people that didn't think I dress conservatively enough, think I shouldn't be so opinionated and treat me ass a lesser person.

          1. GERALD-710 profile image59
            GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Really,Buddhists are peaceful???So the Sri lankan civil war aim at ethnic cleansing of Tamil Hindus(And yes,it was a war of religion as even the monks gave the millitary a lot of support and declared that the Pearl shall be a buddist nation)
            And what about the catholics vs buddhists in vietnam in the 70s and the tension between christians and buddhists in south korea today.(Interestingly,the rise of christianity in Korea coincided with its modrenisation.That is true even in Africa)

      2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Welcome Lady M,

        Are you aware that "Christianity" was started by a pagan Emperor named Constantine in the 4th century that killed those that were really like Christ? He forced assimilation of both those that were first called Christians because they were so much like the real Christ and Jews that came to realize Yeshua [Jesus] as the promised Messiah they were waiting for?

        He forced a state religion and yes, that same spirit is quite evident in his form of Christianity in the world today.

        But those that are truly in relationship with the risen, living Messiah who sits upon the throne and desire to know Him as He is and not merely practice some religious activity are being corrected themselves...

        if they are open to correction

        some that call themselves Christians stop studying to be changed themselves and do use the letter of the law to judge others and not as a mirror to look into to see their own faults, failings and sins [where they miss the mark]

        no one wants to feel judged, condemned, shamed, etc.

        the scripture will do that unless one knows its real intent

        to simply teach

        scripture is a 'law' that restricts freedom to some
        scripture is a manner of living within liberating boundaries when understood correctly

        but yes, it is not to be used to beat others up or to prove to others that they are wrong

        There are many that are peaceful who meditate on scripture and find a life of contemplation very satisfying that are not Buddhists but believers in Yeshua

        1. LadyMacabre profile image58
          LadyMacabreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, and many of the other Christian's on this board. When I say that I wish that there were less Christians, I am speaking of course, the Christian's that give a bad name to the religion. As someone that is not religious, I sometimes forget that there are people out there, that are genuinely following Yeshua's teachings, and not twisting them for a cause.

          1. brittvan22 profile image81
            brittvan22posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Constantine did not begin Christianity he only legalized it as the Emperor at the time and he was converted at that time, or so he said. Christianity came out of those following the Apostles. The Apostolic Fathers, who wrote the Apologies. There was the didache, the letter Diognetus, some of the initial writings underlining their tenets. Also the people who opposed Christianity at the time of Constantine were the Montanist, who were previously condemned as heretics. The Montanists separated themselves literally from the Establishment, monks and nuns went into the desert. Father Anthony is the most known of them as well as Mother Marie. They retreated from the influence of the Empire to keep their Christianity pure. Also Christianity has been always been about following what is known as THE WAY. There are so many different types that hold certain beliefs. I have some book recommendations to explore the subject for yourself and I recently did a blog on scriptural interpretation.

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Shalom brit,

              Thanks for sharing the information you have researched. I did some study as well and had to write papers for my classes in college. We are never going to come to the same conclusions because there is too much history and interpretation of history and so on.

              The first Christians were called that because they were so like the man they considered their Savior. I have a book titled, The Messianic Church arising by Robert Heidler that goes into much of the history and there are YouTube videos. I also have books on 'church' history. I just posted what I have been studying...

              It's not one group of people...Jesus berated the Pharisees for taking the Covenants of YHVH and making them so hard for the people to follow. They were the original 'condemners' if you want to use that term.

              They tried many times to trick Yeshua into breaking the 'law'. But they did not understand the spirit behind the scriptures.

              and that is the entire point today, using the scriptures to judge everyone else, but self

              When we look into the WORD, we see things we don't like.
              But if we understood why--we would wholeheartedly accept the Father's teaching and instruction as the love of a good Father and not deprivation or restriction eliminating any possibility of our enjoying life.

              Many Jews today see God as a good and loving Father, not at all as the monster a lot of religions paint Him to be. I divorced imagery and symbolism of the Roman Catholic god i was battered around with

              Yeshua said, If you do as I instruct you will come to know me. That's in my words.

              And the more I do what the scripture says, the more real He becomes to me. It's not about any religion.

              Yeshua did not come to start a religion. He came to begin to restore the garden of Eden

              If that was real, would we not all want to live there?

              1. brittvan22 profile image81
                brittvan22posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Mazel, Have you been reading my blog? Lol. I agree, what I forgot to say was the early Christians did the apologies to defend Christianity, some wanted to separate later from it's Jewish roots. However, the early apologists were followers of the Apostles and believed that, because they followered the Apostles, they had the scriptural authority. They also went through a rejudiation process early on as well. Then, there were the heresies (option to what the majority thought, enter Greek thought, etc. No argument from me about Jesus berated the Pharisees, they were also the Jewish sect, he grew under. In one of my hubs, I actually spoke of his feelings towards them at times. There is so much scholarship written about Jesus and was it ransom for sin, was it for restoration, was he the 2nd Adam,etc. I could talk Church History with you all day. East vs. West, Orthodox vs. Correlationist, Baptist vs. Methodist, AMEZ vs. AME, etc. I guess thats the benefit of seminary. I literally ate, slept, and breathed it. For me people sometimes don't understand how it can speak to just about anyone. It is taken in with culture and can be quite liberating. For some the text, can also be a source of pain. People can misinterpret to oppress others. If we took the scripture women be silent, we would not speak in church, let alone have the conversation we are having. It cuts both ways. Oh and I'm going to do an article on some new findings next week on the derivative of humanity.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  So admire your scholarship and attention to research detail. We do need to learn to look for the spark of life in everyone that is light and love and nurture it. Can be hard and I know it's hard to see in me, but it's there you want to know the real me enough.

                  find me on FB if you are there. Carol Shaffron, Billings MT.

                  There's no doubt a lot of common ground we can find to learn from each other. Blessings
                  Shalom

    20. looneygoony profile image56
      looneygoonyposted 7 years ago

      No. True Christians who actually try and stay on track are wonderful people!!

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Well stated, Looney.

        Can you give us some examples of true Christians you know who are wonderful people. That would really show that all Christians are not the same and can not be lumped together any more than

        all Jews
        all Muslims
        all Blacks
        all Hispanics
        all Mexicans
        all Chinese
        all Hindus
        all men
        all women
        all Catholics
        all Protestants
        all Episcopalians
        all Lutherans
        all Baptists
        all Pentecostals
        all Charismatics
        all Spaniards
        all French people
        all English people
        all Irish

        Tell us about the wonderful Christians you know. I am going to do the same thing. thx for commenting and joining in the discussion, Looney welcome and nice to see you smile big_smile

        1. looneygoony profile image56
          looneygoonyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I'm 22 recently gave myself back to the Lord it's been about 2 years now. I haven't been in any trouble fights, arguements, etc, i've become a more giving person without regrets of helping others I basically just went to church (penacostal) read the bible took heed and followed it to the best of my knowledge. The church that i attend feels better than a house full of family when i walk in even outside of church the other members are caring and generous....... honestly if i wouldn't have had the extra PUSH towards God from Christians i would be on the same page as i was before, im not against any religion i love PEOPLE in general but i know where i want to go when my body is gone, I know some people who claim to be Christians but don't have all the same beliefs out of the bible so that knocks them out of the circle LOL a real Christian goes by the bible we are all human so mistakes will be made  BUT YOU PICK BACK UP AND TRY AGAIN (a person can claim to be saved but actions speak louder than words) if they arent putting forth effort nine times out of ten they are HYPOCRITS

          1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
            ShalahChayilJOYposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Great to hear your story and so glad you have a family to be part of that you also feel safe in. That is important.

            Not trying to pick on you, but can anyone truly always be like Jesus?

            I mean doesn't everyone's humanness sometimes show through more than Jesus? Does that make them a hypocrite or just someone whose flesh got the better of them?

            Isn't that what the Bible tells us? The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh? so if the flesh seems to be winning, is that person a hypocrite or simply needing to overcome in that area?

            1. looneygoony profile image56
              looneygoonyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              i have been a hypocrit at times......  sometimes try and judge others THEN I SIT BACK AND JUDGE MYSELF i stopped cursing and listening to rap watching those bad movies with the foolishness in it also (my sample of hypocrit would be telling my kids not to do something but then i turn around and do it) WE ARE HUMAN WE MAKE MISTAKES but there is a difference between doing evil things just to ask for forgiveness and true honest repentance........ we all slip up just have to pray about it i believe that muslims have great ways of praying they pray all day i think if Christians used some of their ways as far as how we pray things would be better thats my opinion

              1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Looney,

                I see you're very sincere about your love for the LORD. That's awesome. Yes, we do struggle against the flesh and sometimes in the midst of that struggle the adversary wants to condemn us.

                I think that those who believe Jesus is their Savior do need to spend more time meditating on HIS WORD because that's one way we get to know Him better and as His word penetrates our old beliefs we do become more and more like Him and are better able to overcome when the flesh does 'get the better of us'

                You're awesome and Father loves you so very much, even when you slip. And I know you will appreciate hearing that. We don't hear it enough in this world.

                Yes, He will empower you to overcome, Looney. I see such light in your face. Do you know you're Father's delight?

                1. looneygoony profile image56
                  looneygoonyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Bless you love smile)

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    You too, a lot.

              2. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Wasn't it Jesus who said pray in private? Don't be like the hypocrites who do it publicly.

                1. looneygoony profile image56
                  looneygoonyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Emile you are right...... some people do it for show but when i feel the spirit i give thanks no matter where i am...... when i read that in the bible i took it as, long as you are speaking to Him and giving that undivided that's what matters >>>now i aint kissin no ground lol i see muslims doing that<<< but nothing is wrong with praise and worship (which can be done anywhere you got to let some thing out) i even post prayers on my facebook status to minister out the word and show my fam and friends how He makes me feel when i wake up

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    looney will you find Carol Shaffron Billings MT on FB and send friend request. I'll accept, that is if you want.

                2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi Emile,

                  It is translated in the English that that's what He said. And what that means is, always be in silent communication with your Father in heaven. But He was teaching a people that had come to be much like we are today--wanting to be seen and heard

                  Why is everyone on this forum? to be seen and heard, not?

                  People did gather together to pray as they do today in Bible studies and churches. He was not condemning that practice, but the idea that the Pharisees stood on street corners loudly praying to be noticed for just standing there praying loudly as a religious exercise that they believed made them holier.

                  Observant Jews prayed five or more times a day. At the morning and evening sacrifice and at 9 am, noon, and 3 pm. The practice died out as Constantine forbade any worship or form of prayer except what he ordered.

                  True prayer is constant communion with the One that is our breathe and life, and that is the prayer of a heart no one can see except in the outward countenance and demeanor.

                  1. looneygoony profile image56
                    looneygoonyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    i subscribed!!! i like your page already lol interesting stuff ill be staying in touch for sure

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      smile

              3. profile image0
                AKA Winstonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                If you would simply stop right there you would have it - there is no need to invent a godhead to make you change your ways.  Everything you wrote can be accomplished simply by personal decision.

                What you mistake for a feeling of forgiveness is simply the consequence of a personal decision to act in a positive fashion.

                Now, get rid of the imaginary friend and you could join the rest of humanity.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Do not even start picking on this sweet child of God. You keep your I am all knowing authority to yourself and quit ridiculing her sharing her faith with me.

                  1. brittvan22 profile image81
                    brittvan22posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Who is the imagery friend? Did I miss something?

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      God, Jesus, Yeshua, YHVH, ElShaddai, Elyon, Yah in their godless minds.

                  2. profile image0
                    AKA Winstonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    If you can refute my reasoning, do so.  If not, buzz off.  When I want the advice of a shama-lama-ding-dong, I shall ask by name.

                    1. brittvan22 profile image81
                      brittvan22posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      Is that what I was doing Winnie? I can call you Winnie right? Since I have some information that you may or may not want. I will open the floor to you. What do you want to know?

                    2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      I'm having more fun than i have had in a long time. I'm not about to give that up just because you hiss at me

                      hiss   what hisses? I wonder

                2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  humanity? you call your preying on those you view as .... human?

                3. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

                  1. profile image0
                    AKA Winstonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Catch-22, Chapter 27, page 309

                    1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                      ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      Okay, so shoot me. I will rise again and rule and reign with HIM anyway.

                4. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Since you don't believe in God, only in our humanity, why do we need to forgive ourselves?

                  What do we need to forgive ourselves of if there are no 'laws' to be broken, no rules to abide by?

                  what is forgiveness for?

    21. Xenonlit profile image61
      Xenonlitposted 6 years ago

      And how many mystics would run the food kitchens? Aren't they busy being narcissists?

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        lol lol lol

      2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image60
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        What would the world be without say, the beautiful mountains that produce nothing like factories or farms but give people a place to get away and simply enjoy God's beautiful and wondrous creation

        Every person has his or her purpose and only the one that made them is qualified to judge that person.

        And there are tons of Christians and religious organizations that run soup kitchens for the homeless and distribute food, clothing and other necessary items. That quality is one God himself built into humans. That is a facet of Him that is evident in many humans.

        1. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Church food kitchens and many other religious institutions that do real, physical good in this world are run by mystics.

    22. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago

      We shy away from things we don't understand, Mark. I think, by responding the way you do all the time, that there must be some internal longing inside of you, screaming out for a God you secretly wish was evident to you. It's all psychiatric stuff anyways.smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        LOL Sorry you don't understand reality in that case.

        Oddly enough - I embrace things I don't understand but I know why you would need to claim an understanding that I don't have. Saves doing any actual work.

        Maybe you could go back to school?

    23. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago

      In school every day. Got an apple all shined up for the teach. We're going on a field trip, getting ready for garduation. You only seem to have a sense of humor when ridiculing others. It's an old schtick. BORING.smile

    24. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago

      I'll bet you kill 'em at parties.wink

    25. Druid Dude profile image59
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago

      Brits? Well, that tears it. My ancestry is Scottish. Might as well be from Ireland. Oh, yeah...I am part Irish.

    26. GERALD-710 profile image59
      GERALD-710posted 6 years ago

      Again with the assumption that we are all american evangelists!
      I for one have never judged anyone.Until THEY try to impose THEIR views on Me.In case you haven't noticed,it was an atheist(with issues)who started this thread.Not a christian.It is always the christians being attacked whether it is by the muzzies or by atheist not withstanding the fact that if complete atheism was an establishment,we would be like the USSR.

    27. GERALD-710 profile image59
      GERALD-710posted 6 years ago

      Again with the assumption that we are all american evangelists!
      I for one have never judged anyone.Until THEY try to impose THEIR views on Me.In case you haven't noticed,it was an atheist(with issues)who started this thread.Not a christian.It is always the christians being attacked whether it is by the muzzies or by atheist not withstanding the fact that if complete atheism was an establishment,we would be like the USSR.
      I am a presbyterian and once an armenian orthodox.We don't impose our views like American evangelicals(who we do not like for their charades).We want to be left alone.And not to be grouped with a bunch of fanatics

      1. A Thousand Words profile image76
        A Thousand Wordsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        So if the boot doesn't fit, don't get offended by it. Apologize for their absurdity, and move on. Unfortunately, American Christianity (protestantism, mostly) is the main example of Christianity that Americans experience. Either come here and start some kind of sane movement, or realize that, even if it's no fault of your own, people will group you with them. All you can do is express how different you are and hope that all people, religious or not, will stop generalizing, and recognize individual differences. That's something I was starting to forget myself. If you portray some of the same characteristics in these forums, people will be more likely to group you together with them.

        1. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          That's true. It works for the other side, as well. There's one poster who claims not to be an atheist but who acted so much like some of the avowed atheists that I accused him of it. My bad.

    28. Felixedet2000 profile image58
      Felixedet2000posted 6 years ago

      what did you expect the religious people to use?They have a book to reference which makes absolute sense, At least they aren't like others that have nothing except idle logic to bank on.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image78
        DoubleScorpionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Seriously? Did you read this before posting?

        1. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Didn't make much sense to me, either.

      2. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Felix, I have heard you say some really absurd things, but this takes the cake.

        I agree. But, what else are you to expect from someone who claims to have all the answers. lol

    29. Lawrence Da-vid profile image61
      Lawrence Da-vidposted 6 years ago

      Not too sure if the world would be a better place!....but....with a choice of whatever religion one decides on, Christianity is much better than having a religion forced down your throat.  To be considered an infidel and a target for death whether military or civilian by some, unless you believe in their way of thinking.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        You must not have any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses in your area if there's been no one visiting you to "spread the good word."  lol



                                                    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

        1. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          That wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that if you choose a religion, then Christianity would be the best one, in his opinion.

          (Of course that's my opinion too, but that's not the point...)

          Yeah, I've had both Mormons and JW's on my doorstep. But I think he was referring to the Middle East and North Africa, Muslim areas where Christians sometimes find notes pinned to their door with knives stating that they will be killed, their women will be raped and the babies will be Muslim.

        2. GERALD-710 profile image59
          GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          @Randy.No,They have never visited me.However as Chris mentioned,I am sure they do not come brandishing knives and telling all christians to recite the Bible or face death.(LIKE IN i ran).Nor do they bomb mosques or buddhist temples(Didnt boko haram bomb a church yesterday in central Nigeria?)

      2. A Thousand Words profile image76
        A Thousand Wordsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        That was coming from those proclaiming Christianity not too long ago... But in America, we're not far from it, in political terms. It seems that a good portion of the voters like Evangelical ideas and want this country to be more theocratic than it need be, and would be fair for it to be considering that everyone in this country isn't Christian. But instead of living their lives how they should, worrying about their own planks, there busy forcing their laws onto "Hellbound Heathens."

        1. GERALD-710 profile image59
          GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          The problem with Americans is that you/we refise to ignore the Evangelicals.Other christians do an they are by far the majority in this nation so why the heck do the secularists pay attention to them then try to lump the rest of us together with them ,huh?

      3. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
        EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Christianity is not better. Unfortunately, anyone that pays attention to things going on in America, knows that Christianity is quite literally being shoved down people's throat. For instance, the current issue of defining marriage. It has nothing to do with society, it only has to do with Christian ministers not wanting to marry any couple that does not consist of a man and a woman because of their beliefs.

        No religion is free from persecuting other people unfortunately. At least that I have seen.

        1. GERALD-710 profile image59
          GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Excuse me.Tell me of any other religion that defines marriage as the union between man or anything else.The mention of such a story in a muslim nation will have you stoned,in a buddhist one,read Thailand where gay monks are not allowed in temple and are actually thrown out and yes,Bangkok may be a  gay capital ,but that doesnt mean the buddhists agree with that

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
            EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Sumerian, Greek, and Roman just to name three religions older than Christianity and still practiced today. Wicca, which though is newer, is still a religion. Druidry as well. Do I need to keep going or are you not understanding the point here?

            My point is that it is NOT acceptable to allow your beliefs to be forced on to others. You believe that way, and so do some other religions. Yet there are religions who do not believe that way and your saying it's ok to tell them they have to accept the way you believe? I find that completely unacceptable and a great showing of INTOLERANCE of others.

            Of course, I'm willing to bet that neither yourself, nor any other "Christian" sees it that way.

            1. Chris Neal profile image74
              Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              You forgot Judaism!

              1. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
                EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                I'm still working on studying Judaism. I don't know enough about it yet to proclaim anything on their behalf, as I've had pointed out to me when I tried.

                Anyway, I'm off to the store, cheers!

            2. GERALD-710 profile image59
              GERALD-710posted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Please show me those people who are still practising those religions today.Italy has been 90%+ catholic for nearly a millenia and the rest being other christians and today 2% Isalm. T he Roman religion of worshipping Jupiter was extinct by the 1400s
              The Greek Religion was dying at the time of Jesus and was effectively made extinct by the Eastern Orthodox Church and later the Turks.Indeed both of the above religions were forgoted until after the dark ages when the manuscripts of the past were revealed
              So those religions are NOT  practiced today ,neither are they recognised  by any state institution that I know of.
              The Sumerian religion DIED at the time of David let alone Jesus,Th ivaders aka Assyrians Chaledians,Persians and Greeks made sure that that religion died!And even if it wuold have survived them,it wouldnt have  survived the convert -or -die muslims living in Iraq today.
              Chris Neal.Who the heck lied to you that Judaism allows that???Isnt leviticus in the Torah and it advocates for Death by Stoning, with stones!

              1. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
                EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                I know that all you have to base anything on is presupposed conclusions drawn by other people, so I will allow you some leniency here. I have personally met people who practice all three religion. I went to High School with 2 people who practice the Sumerian Religion, and still do to this day that I know of. I met a believer and practitioner of the Ancient Greek rights in Virginia a few years after High School. As for the Roman Religious practices, I met a woman in D.C. just a few years ago that practiced those. Just because you haven't met these people yourself, is no reason to make such a presupposition as you have made. Not to mention, you still fail to defeat my point. There are a great many religions spread across the face of the earth, not all of which agree with your assessment of having to have things just the way your RELIGION dictates it. Just because you have an extreme prejudice and intolerance of other religions, doesn't mean they don't exist.

              2. Randy Godwin profile image93
                Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                And we'll be better off when they all go the way of former cults with THEIR invisible deities also.  It would be nice for the world to try living for reality instead of superstition for once in our history.  It's obvious it's not doing too well as it is now.

                                                          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

        2. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Where? Where? WHERE? From what I've seen, from the time I was a kid being taught evolution in school, to when I was in high school being taught that God is only a construct, to the last few months when the Federal Government decreed that religious institutions must provide contraceptions and abortions free of charge, what I've seen is a steady march towards making Christianity uncool, then unwelcome, and eventually illegal.

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
            EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            That would be because of lack of attention being paid. Firstly, evolution is a fact of life, Darwin's Theory of Evolution is another story though. Which as I have pointed, is not taught every where.

            As for the issue over Contraceptives, well what do you expect to happen when your religious organization decides it's going to hire non-religious people? Just because a religious organization wants to let people die because of lack of contraceptives, doesn't mean that people should be forced to deal with it.

            However, If you look at the Article on my website, I've pointed out where just in the last month or two Religion has been forcing people to conform to them, and using the law to do so. For one, you have the issue of defining marriage. For two, you have states that are passing laws saying that a doctor no longer has to try and help people, as was the case in Oklahoma recently with a rape victim. The doctor flat out refused to help the girl, and wouldn't bother getting someone else that could, all based on her personal beliefs (not the girls but the doctors). That's just two of the examples that I've used in my article, and there is at least one more. Just because people decide to turn a blind eye to it (mainly those who don't consider things to add up) doesn't mean that it's not there.

    30. Lou Lohman profile image71
      Lou Lohmanposted 6 years ago

      The world would be a better place with less religion, period.  One shouldn't need an organization or a predetermined set if ideals to be a good person or do the right thing.

      Sadly, however, many people do.

      1. EinderDarkwolf profile image59
        EinderDarkwolfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        If only we could go back to the times of people holding dear to their own ideals instead of someone elses!

        1. Chris Neal profile image74
          Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          When in the world was that?

      2. Chris Neal profile image74
        Chris Nealposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        The Bible is certainly a book about how to be better human being, but that's not the main point. The main point is the existence of God and our relationship with Him.

     
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