Suppose that you (the reader) and I decide to go for a tramp in the woods. Suddenly a big bear comes running out of the undergrowth, jumps on you, pins you down and is just about to sink its teeth into your throat. Oh dear, you are in a sticky situation, you are going to die, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Now being such a nice fellow as I am, I raise my trusty shotgun and shoot the bear dead. Praise the Lord reader for you are now saved. Now some questions to think about:
- Did you have to formerly ask me for salvation before I gave it? No.
- Did you have to say a sinner's prayer? No.
- Was my salvation to you a free gift? Yes.
- Strings attached? No.
- Could you have prevented this free gift of salvation? No.
- Did you have any say in it whatsoever? No.
- Whether you accepted or rejected my salvation, would it have made any difference? No.
- Was the salvation initiated from you or from me? Me.
- So would you agree that by my shooting of the bear, you are saved and this action had nothing to do with you and was entirely as a result of my grace and love, you could not accept it or reject it BECAUSE IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED?
One final question. You now stand up, turn to me and say, I hate you DH and I reject your shotgun salvation. Should I now reach for a can of petrol, a match, and set you on fire?
Well now, Disappearinghead....I think the question really is more along the lines of....who gave you Life in the first place so that you could even be in the woods to "save" me?
And yes there was a string attached in your scenario!----credit. You want credit for having "saved" "me". But all you're due is credit for having made the CHOICE to save me, since you're not the initial nor the ultimate author of the grace that allowed the scenario to even happen. And there's where your scenario isn't sustainable----imperfect humans aren't comparable to the perfect God. If "you" were God, you wouldn't have had to use a shotgun anyway! You'd have just commanded the bear to drop me, or zapped it outta existence or some such thing! LOL
But indeed the actual Author of that Salvation does deserve the credit, and does have the right to light that petrol can and throw the blasphemer into the fire. Whether He does so or not depends on how many chances He wants to give the rejector and whether or not the rejector ever chooses to accept (and that would be something that the Alpha would know, not you).
Shorter answer----Yes, we can reject Salvation. People have done it. Some people still do it. The Bible says to recognize His authority and power to send us to hell!
And people still argue about Calvinism and Arminianism (or however that's spelled). I say the Bible is clear already, and people need to read it instead of worrying about what Calvin or anybody else meant.
I think you missed my point Brenda. I'm not presenting this scenario for my sake or to assume any credit. I'm drawing an analogy of Jesus salvation to humanity. Just as you in this case were saved without asking, you had no influence, and it has been done already, so it is with Jesus. So his salvation cannot be rejected because he initiated it and completed it.
As to setting you on fire I hoped you'd see that as ludicrous and therefore you woud see that the idea of God doing it was also ludicrous.
But I wasn't saved without asking. Maybe in your scenario, but not in reality of Salvation. That's what I mean----any comparison of human action/reaction falls way short when compared to God's actions.
God drew me toward Him. Jesus promised that before He went to the Cross (that He would draw all mankind toward Him).
But indeed I had to be willing to accept the offer.
Why would "hell" be ludicrous? It isn't. Because I (and you and every other human being) am fallible, unable to be perfect. BUT God understands that. How can He not, because He made the first human beings! WE, however, are responsible for Loving God; we have that capacity and that option. And indeed He is easy to Love! So, yeah, we're responsible for that, for choosing Him. If we don't, He can and will send us to hell. The clay has no authority to question the Potter's final authority.
As a lump of steel cannot prevent itself being drawn to a magnet, so man cannot prevent themselves being drawn to God.
Anyway if your hell exists, why did God never mention it to anyone before the Book of Revelation? Don't cite Gehenna now because Jesus was speaking to Jews who knew it meant the Hinom Valley, and as they had no concept of eternal hellfire, Gehenna being hell is completely alien. And as the term hell never appears in the bible, how could Jesus equate the Hinom Valley to something that had no name?
My mother. And she didn't know any bears.
And you?
What if instead of you having a shotgun, you tackled the bear and allowed the foolish hiker to escape, even if you had to give YOUR life to allow that to happen.
Would the hiker not owe you a debt, his life?
There you go - forced salvation through guilt/debt.
This is an invisible bear that no one sees - right.
Either way John, the salvation has been given unconditionally and it cannot be rejected, therefore you in this case are saved whether you wanted it or not. Just like Mark here is saved too because he cannot stop, prevent, or reject that which has been completed.
I will reject it sweetie. If this is the premis - that I need saving in the first place and have no input in it? I will surely reject such a nonsensical proposition.
I see where youy are going but - no - just as nonsensical as their take it or burn BS.
Why would I need saving? From what? The Invisible Bear?
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Well at least you have given it the thought to see the point I'm trying to make. I can't ask any more than that.
Nope. Nice little scenario there, but it doesn't wash. But indeed many "believers" have fallen into that trap of "universal salvation" theory. And they may cause many souls to go to the lake of fire because they didn't warn them that they have a choice.
Why doesn't it wash? You don't think God loves humanity enough?
It's not about choice. Say I washed your car for you for free without asking you first whilst you were watching telly. You might be happy or annoyed enough to want to "sue my ass". But the fact is your car is washed, it is finished.
What's with the double quotes around "believers"?
I believe that means she thinks you are not a "proper," believer.
Now - My Great Grandma - that was a proper believer. She would have had no truck with a divorced woman living in sin, no sir.
And you want the credit it for it, then.
That's the part that doesn't wash.
Because you are not God.
If you were God, you wouldn't even have to use a sponge or water or anything at all to "wash my car". Don't you get it? Man wants credit, in your scenario. But in God's Salvation scenario, man doesn't want credit, because he simply chooses to be saved by the awesome God who is worthy of credit. It's not about the man, even though, yes, he chooses. It's about God, who can and will and does do anything He wants to do. And He always does Good, no matter what we do. It wouldn't be good for God to save someone who hates Him unless that person repents and Loves Him. Darkness and Light aren't compatible in the soulical realm.
The quotes around believers? A believer believes what the Bible says. And the Bible says we must choose.
No no no Brenda. I don't want any credit for washing your car. I did it because I love you. And whether I used a sponge, hosepipe or spoke the words "Brenda's car thou art clean", and so it was, is not the point.
Yes God does whatever he wants to which includes saving those who don't want to be saved. They cannot prevent a God that does what He pleases.
But we do need to accept it?
Or is it compulsory????
We have no say because it happened before we were born. Rejecting or accepting is futile when that something happened in the past.
So EVERYONE is saved NO MATTER WHAT and there is nothing they can do about it?
Is that correct????
Yes.
Romans 3: 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ [his faith not ours] to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference [no difference between the 'all' and out of those 'all' those who believe],
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
24 [all] being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
My words in [.....]
Romans 5: 8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.
Notice that God reconciled us to himself WHILST we were still his enemy. But Christianity says we are only reconciled AFTER WE have asked for it formally. You see he reconciled us independently of us because he did the action.
So can I tear the following verses out of my bible, they seem to be redundant?
John 3 15:18
In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may [c]not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.
He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]
John, did the disciples believe in Him? They said they did, but that belief expired when they ran away. They didn't believe that he would rise from the dead until he did and met them.
The condemnation of all men happened at the cross, whereupon Jesus switched places with us. At that point the sin was condemned, at that point the judgement came. God will not condemn man when the condemnation was already inflicted on Jesus. When he said it was finished, it truly was.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many [all] died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! [all]
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive [thats all of us because God gave it to all] God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.
One sin ultimately resulted in all condemned, though this is not original sin, then one righteous act justified all. Notice too that where there is no law sin is not charged against anyone's account. So if Christ came to fulfill the law and bring that law covenant to an end, there is no more law, so sin is no longer charged to us.
1 Corinthians 15: 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a human being.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But in this order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So all will be made alive because of Christ and we all belong to him because he purchased the whole of humanity by paying the penalty of all of its sin.
Though I can't find it now, Paul's says that it is God's will that all men be saved. The Church thinks this 'will' is a wishy washy hope that God knows he cannot fulfil but:
Isaiah 46: 10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
what I have planned, that I will do.
God will do what he wants, and that includes saving everyone.
OK it seem you have now gone the whole way into universalism, which is normal once one starts down that path, and I have good friends who have taken those steps, even myself having ventured and explored the conclusions.
My good friends have ended up step by step dropping more of the bible as their new 'revelations' gave them new insights into what God REALLY meant and how the church has gotten it deliberately twisted to act as a control over the masses.
Eventually they dismiss the whole bible in favour of these new truths they have acquired. You may be different, but your course looks similar to theirs, as I have witnessed them going over the last few years.
I turned back from 'all are saved' (regardless) but have never returned to the 'all (who are not in Christ) will burn for eternity in hell' variety either.
You know that my position shows a place where those who by their actions or decision have rejected God will reside for eternity, separated from God and isolated from the rest of Gods creation.
Whether that is heaven or hell will be their making, as God and His Holy Spirit will not be in that place.
The entrance will be a one way door that has no exits, so once God has vacated the space, it belongs totally to those who have chosen, by action or decision, to be there.
That will satisfy all the requirements of a just and merciful God who has the obligation to provide for all of His creation in eternity.
You quote:
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many [all] died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! [all]
Your bracketed words change the whole context of what is said, many is not all, many is less than all, fewer than the full amount but still more than just a few, though not as many as most, but most certainly not ALL.
Revelation 21 6:8
......I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life.
He who is victorious shall inherit all these things, and I will be God to him and he shall be My son.
But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)—[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone.
This is the second death.
-------------------------
The above verses seem to indicate that some will not be accepted which rather negates the corruption of many into all.
Many is not all.
Tis true John that I have been looking at universalism for the last 2-3 years. I cannot believe in the concept of the Christian hell for all the reasons I have posted over my time on HP. Annihilation makes no sense either as the punishment does not fit the crime even at the level of eye for ane eye, tooth for tooth...... Eternal separation from God also breaks the 'God is omnipotent' rule.
Paul does make the statement in 1 Cor 3 that each man's work will be tested with fire and what does not stand will be burnt up but the man will still be saved.
With regards to Romans 5:15, if the 'many' means 'all' died by the trespass of one man (and nobody would argue that all did not die) we cannot redefine the 'many' to mean something else than 'all' in the second half of the verse. Verse 18 explicitly states all and so does 1 Cor 15:22.
Nevertheless, I have finally come out of the closet.
I think you mean "omnipresent."
Just another brick in the wall of logic you are building. A few more steps will take you to the far, far simpler explanation than you are struggling with at the moment............
Ta Mark for spotting the typo, "Omnipresence" it is.
Even if my brick wall needs a little work, it is more attractive that that manky old brick wall we are used to looking at. What does your wall look like?
I don't have a wall. When you have finished yours it will vanish in a puff of logic.
But - yes - your wall is looking better than the manky wall people like Agua self righteously crow about.
I know this thought will seem like blasphemy to you, but have you ever considered the progression of history and what might be expected of you?
I always saw the Old Testament as God's heavy hand because humanity needed to see their gods in action. They were at the mercy of the elements in many ways. No understanding of the forces of nature.
Jesus offered a revolutionary way to view God. Since civilization had progressed to the point that this could be understood. Rome had incorporated all of the surrounding nations into its fold. Hundreds of ideas of what gods were vied for the public ear. The whole premise of his ministry refuted the idea of man at the mercy of the cosmos. God was there; he was not only aware of each individual, but he even knew the number of hairs on your head. He was a father, not a dictator.
If the gospels could reveal a new way of thinking, why would it stop there? Why remain mired in the musings of Paul? His understanding fell within the parameters of the world he lived in. The world has changed. If your understanding of the words in the gospels can't logically fit into all of the things we have learned over the millennia...where does that leave you?
Had those who heard the words of Christ been insistent that the words of others take precedent you wouldn't have his words to reflect on today. Had the meaning not been reflected on over the course of time, our understanding wouldn't have evolved. Why must everything remain stagnant?
What made sense to the Israelites in the desert made no sense in Rome. The knowledge of man had expanded. What made sense two thousand years ago to Paul makes no sense today. The knowledge of humanity has expanded.
Knowledge may be offered for a reason. Why ignore it? Disappearing Head appears to be attempting to view things 'eyes wide open'. Those of you within the church would be ahead of the game if you followed his lead.
Or we could stick by the original instructions:
Rev 22 16:21
I, Jesus, have sent My messenger (angel) to you to witness and to give you assurance of these things for the churches (assemblies). I am the Root (the Source) and the Offspring of David, the radiant and brilliant Morning Star.
The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost.
I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.
And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.
He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
The grace (blessing and favor) of the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) be [g]with all the saints (God’s holy people, those set apart for God, to be, as it were, exclusively His). Amen (so let it be)!
---------------------------
Now I can choose to ignore these remarks, made by Christ, but then I would need to also ignore:
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones)
Hmmmm.... so there will be deception in the last days to lead 'even the elect' (if that were possible) astray from the purity of Christ's words.
You see the only way I can make scripture say something different than it always has done is to choose to ignore the bits that do not support my 'new' revelation.
It's really nice to think that God saves everyone, no matter what they chose to do, no matter how badly they behaved, I can see the attraction, and believe me IF I could see and substantiate it in scripture, without blotting out all the passages that do not allow for that to be truth, I would.
OH, One other small criteria: provided that The Holy Spirit also confirmed it.
But I cannot, and if for no other reason than scripture states:
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept and preserved them in Your Name [ in the knowledge and worship of You]. Those You have given Me I guarded and protected, and not one of them has perished or is lost except the son of perdition [Judas Iscariot—the one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost], that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
So at least ONE of humanity was sent SOMEWHERE ELSE and we need to know that if there is 'somewhere else' to be sent, what is that place?
Matthew 26 21:25
And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
-----------------
In universalism thinking, where would someone be sent that was so bad that "it had been good for that man if he had not been born."?
If even ONE man can be sent somewhere that can be described as a place where "it had been good for that man if he had not been born." what is that place, and why would ONE man be condemned to be there if ALL were to be saved no matter what?
And why did Christ tell Nicodemus the following?:
John 3 3:12
Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother’s womb again and be born?
Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.
What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).
The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered by asking, How can all this be possible?
Jesus replied, Are you the teacher of Israel, and yet do not know nor understand these things? [Are they strange to you?]
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, We speak only of what we know [we know absolutely what we are talking about]; we have actually seen what we are testifying to [we were eyewitnesses of it]. And still you do not receive our testimony [you reject and refuse our evidence—that of Myself and of all those who are born of the Spirit].
If I have told you of things that happen right here on the earth and yet none of you believes Me, how can you believe (trust Me, adhere to Me, rely on Me) if I tell you of heavenly things?
-------------
There does appear to be some conditions that can only exist if there will be some that cannot meet them.
I think I will stay with Christ, and keep obeying His commands, rather than follow new ideas that have no foundation in scripture, because if those ideas do not come from God, then there is only one other source of spiritual guidance that I know of.
Listening to that source normally means that one starts discounting scripture and denying that the enemy exists.... and yes I have seen all this before. lost a brother to it some years back, so I am wary of folk who promote universal salvation.
The ONLY score where I see it as being possible is IF Christ suspended time on our point of death and gave each rebel the opportunity to recant of their rebellion and come to belief in Christ.
That MAY cover all being saved, because it would be a truly foolish person who refuse Christ at that point, but even then, for the situation to even exist, there must be somewhere for those who still rebel and refuse, and I guess they would find Judas there also.
Notice that God reconciled us to himself WHILST we were still his enemy. But Christianity says we are only reconciled AFTER WE have asked for it formally. You see he reconciled us independently of us because he did the action.
God reconciled everyone POTENTIALLY through the death of his son. Realistically and biblically everyone has to go through Jesus Christ to be saved, hence if a person never believes in Christ then that one cannot be saved and with the parable about the wise and foolish women who had oil in their lamps (the spirit) 5 were not saved. So as the believers shall scarcely be saved how shall the ungodly? They cannot be saved until they believe.
Paul said we are reconciled, not potentially reconciled.
yes but in context we have to realize that the work of christ on the cross is for all but they have to drink of the spiritual water that is christ = potentially.
The promised land was offered to another generation than that generation who lacked belief and that unbelieving generation died in the wilderness.
Those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. IF we read this in opposite: those who do not call on the name of the Lord will not be saved.
How about the car accident in which the victim of the accident marvels that he is alive and a friend says offhandedly, oh thank God. Was salvation offered? All we can assume is that the situation brought an awareness of God and that in order to walk into greater awareness discipleship must occur.
There have always been vessels fit for destruction and vessels on a different path; the path of salvation.
Let's take Pharaoh as an example.
Romans 9:15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
If we read the Exodus account, it was God who continuously hardened Pharaoh's heart; he was entirely at God's mercy and if we take these passages together, God overruled Pharaoh's will. The principle is that God does what he likes. So should we be surprised if some do not come to God? If we are saved it is because God has shown us kindness.
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;
So if one comes to God, it is his gift and not your choice, as God gave the faith to make it possible.
Who can be saved? With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Thus it is impossible to be saved by merely choosing of our own wills to be so. It is God who draws us and only if he does can one be saved.
2 Timothy 1:9 ....who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,
We are only saved because he purposed it to happen, and not by any work we did. What is that work?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
Belief is a work in itself, but our work of belief is insufficient. Thus we are saved individually because God wills it to be so, not because we came to him with a sinners prayer.
DH, my questions (in keeping with your universal salvation aspect) would be, from what are we saved?
If some need to be saved, then obviously some are not saved.
God may DESIRE that all be saved, but that is not the same as God COMMANDING that all WILL be saved.
What happens to those who are not saved?
John
Yes saved from what is a good question?
From a Christian hell? No because if God tells us we should forgive 70x7 and do good to our enemies, then it's not credible to say God will not forgive those who don't believe, and that he will do bad to his enemies. Why would he ask us to behave in a morally superior manner than he is prepared to?
From anihilation? No because the Mosaic Law established a principle of punishment fitting the crime: eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth..... Unbelief because one has failed to be convinced by Churchianity does not warrant extermination.
From eternal separation? No that doesn't work for me either. This link is an interesting read, though I don't agree with all that is stated, it makes a good case against Westen views of what happens to unbelievers.
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
Correct DH, that was an interesting read, and I have reposted it to my private list for commentary, but it certainly made a degree of sense to me, and I thank you for providing the link, and would recommend any others who feel inclined to also visit it and read it with a clear mind.
Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of the heavens.
Reads differently when you apply what the author states is the correct translation (not checked yet)
Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah divine fire from the Lord out of the heavens.
The opinion fits (and adds clarification) to my earlier summation, which came when I asked God to pour His Glory upon our (then) church, and His reply was "If I did that ALL the sin present would burn up and most would be consumed (die)"
I now have a new understanding of that statement.
Thanks
They that rejects salvation are.those that turn to the bear then look at you and says "oh what a poor bear, you wicked man why did you do that?"... Then try to shoot you with your own gun, all the time denying that they were scared shitless.
The rejection of salvation is actually not being able to recognise it...
just as one is unable to differentiate between the purpose of bear and the shotgunner, so they are unable to differentiate Life and death.
So whosoever occommodates death without overcoming it are the ones decieved...
Not sure anyone understood the point you were reaching for.
Supose the hiker didn't see you or knew you were even in the woods.
He can even believe that he conquored the bear himself.
I think you are spot on.
Salvation is a free gift. rewards after salvation is a different matter.
Great post and thought...And I see the majority don't get it...
Thanks DS. I glad someone gets it. I guess it's difficult for many to stop and look at something from a different angle.
I get it just fine.
There is a far, far, far simpler explanation.
I don't need salvation in the first place.
See how much simpler that is? No arguing, no need for majik, no god, none of that nonsense.
Oh well, I guess the bear doesn't have to raid picnic baskets for a month.
The ravening, big scary bear does not exist so - yes.
apparently no one anywhere, ever has been attacked by a bear. Disappearing head told his story and you chose to stick your head in the sand and say the bear doesn't exist.
This is a perfect example of bias opinion, kudos mark.
So okay, Micheal demasi from Australia.
Mr Demasi, 27, has a small wound on his thigh where the shark pierced his plastic kayak when it bit into it in 40m-deep water. "I didn't know it was a shark so I was relaxed enough to grab my sunnies as I bailed out. It wasn't until I came up from the water when I saw a big thing gnawing the kayak. "She was in awe to see this massive creature launch itself out of the water and grab the kayak," Mr Lavers said. "It was pretty cool how she quickly got (Mr Demasi) on the back of the kayak and out of the water."
Real story, shark existed, see the parallel?
what if the story was written 2,000 yrs ago in greek. You would not believe it actually happened?
No parallel whatsoever. That shark was real - your scary invisible majik bear does not exist.
I have a theory that atheists lack imagination and that vagueness is some sort of shield.
No - my imagination works just fine. I can just tell the difference between the things I imagine and the things that actually exist.
It appears religionists such as yourself lack that facility. Just a theory.
You are right ... that is because you received it before you ever was!
edit Before you were ever able to make any distinction
Mark, Lets assume for a moment that believers are correct and salvation of some sort is required. In this scenario, it is given, no requirements or expectations attached. Which means, that everyone gets it regardless.
I would think, those who aren't believers would appreciate this religious logic over what is normally seen. And as can be seen from the majority of believer responses, they don't like that idea because it negates their belief in how salvation can be obtained.
I came to this same conclusion many years ago.
Conditional salvation makes no sense except as a means to perpetuate a church. It is the single solitary reason this religion causes so many conflicts. Those who are "saved," are "better," than those who are not. And - by gum it is easy. All you need to do is say the majik words (and pay your tithes.)
The next logical step is - needing salvation in the first place makes no sense.
Well Mark in this instance I agree entirely with what you are saying regarding conditional salvation. And yes this notion of who is and isn't saved is does generate a lot of conflict.
Of course it generates conflict, first nobody gets smug about having come to faith, and being in faith is NOT just reciting some 'majik' words or paying tithes, as usual the propagandist has reduced things to the lowest level, and it almost went unnoticed or commented upon.
God desires ALL to be saved, I agree, however there are folk who do not wish to be saved.
It's the fact that scripture clearly defines that some WILL NOT be saved that creates the conflict, when those who refuse Gods salvation, then try to call Him unfair.
Your presumption that God has 'done the deed' and humanity has no say in it, makes no sense, denies free choice, requires no decision, and allows anybody, no matter how bad they have been, to spend eternity with God.
Personally, should the world ever start agreeing with me, I would check my spiritual position, because those who the world loves are not friends of God.
It may be that you (DH) are moving away from Christ, and if that is so, well that is also your choice, and I could understand how believing that ALL get saved regardless, would be attractive, but I think you need to look carefully at what you are 'coming out' on, because I've been on that ledge also, and it's along drop, with very difficult ways back once you ave jumped.
If no one gets smug and doesn't think reciting magic words makes a difference, it's news to many of the rest of us. Maybe you don't understand the definition of smug? Many evangelicals here in the forums (I won't name names) certainly come off as smug to me. And most claim the words 'I accept Christ as my savior' cause an invisible force to remove invisible sin to allow an invisible soul to live forever. I don't think it's a stretch to understand how that might be termed magical.
Sure, I can see how you may interpret those aspects, but they are the aspects that the world sees and cannot understand.
It goes a whole lot deeper than that for believers who have engaged with Christ at more than a superficial level.
'I accept Christ as my savior' is actually an announcement to the enemy, and a declaration that denies the enemy further access to the person who is making the declaration. The declaration is being made to the enemy, God already knows the heart and mind of the person speaking.
John last time I looked I was not moving away from Christ, I have no reason to. And if on occasion I might agree with a particular point of an atheist, that's no indication that we're all loved up.
If the message of Christ is so disagreeable and the Christian is looking to ensure that being an enemy of the world is a sign that validates their true faith, how will anyone come to Christ in this life?
Interesting point.
Why does Christianity need an enemy?
Take your pick of titles. (sin, alt-religions, atheism, science, other christian types, nonexistent entity titled Lucifer aka Satan aka Destroyer...ad infinitum). No other religion in recorded history has had this many enemies, issues, scandals, wars, atrocities, prophetic desolation, insolvable mysteries, cloak-n-dagger, etc, in the name of salvation, when in fact -according to the doctrine- should be precisely the opposite: the ultimate unifying, peaceful, joyful, liberating and "perfecting" experience ever known to human kind.
Could the reason it needs an enemy be to validate the "salvation doctrine" due to the lack of validity regarding "testimony in each one's spirit" {salvation effect} of said power?
James.
Joh_15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
The words in red.
It's a big "if" though, it's not a given, a certainty, or a requirement in order to be a proper Christian.
Did the world love Jesus? Remember, they nailed Him to a cross.
More words written in red below.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
The religious had him nailed to a cross. Had the religious not been so adament that he die, he would have been simply flogged and released.
But, even though the religious can't see this (I think because they want to feel persecuted) no one is expressing hatred toward anyone because they follow Christ. I do see a general distaste for those who, through arrogance, ego or ignorance insist on finding everything within the text they can use as a weapon to bludgeon the rest of us with their 'piety' ; yet insist on ignoring everything that was meant to help them learn to be more caring and loving citizens.
The high priest accused Him but all the people cried, "Crucify Him!"
When you say general distaste, I can only assume you mean hate. if that is not the case, let me know.
The Word is not used as a weapon against people, as you suggest. It is used as a weapon against unrighteousness. It is used as a weapon against spiritual wickedness.
No. I said distaste. That does not equate to hate. Individual interpretation is being questioned and, yes at times, ridiculed. This is not an attack on Christ or Christianity and to see it as such is misguided.
Thanks for clarifying.
I never accused you or anyone else of attacking me or Christianity. I know Christianity is attacked a lot on these forums but I am sure the attackers know they are attacking without me or anyone having to let them know.
One thing I do see a lot. Many talk about how much they love Christ or like Him, yet they know very little about Him. Just as many on this thread are posting what they would rather the Bible says, they miss a lot of hard points that Jesus Himself made.
One quote Jesus made is this. "You are either for me or against me." You see, Jesus said there is no middle ground. You are either a believer or you are not.
If I was to misquote you or someone else in this forum, would you or someone else try to set things straight?
It all boils down to the question of intent, for me. Just as it did back then. What is the point? What were the words spoken for? What were you expected to learn and how was this knowledge to be used when interacting with others?
I see the modern day Christian as being little different from the religious of that time. So sure in your 'wisdom'. So convinced you are right with God, as no one else is. They, too, couldn't understand the reason for the law. In my eyes, every time a religious person attempts to bludgeon another with assurances that they are heaven bound while the person they disagree with is hell bound; they are playing out the crucifixion again in their own small minded way.
The only point I can say is that Jesus spoke what he spoke. Everything he spoke is to be taken as a lesson for all believers. Keep in mind the title of this thread. Another way to put the question is: Can you choose salvation or not?
How many modern day Christians want to nail Jesus to the cross? How many accused Him of blasphemy? Do you think God to be an unjust God?
Do you think the religious in Jerusalem wanted to nail a prophet to the cross? Of course not. They had no idea what they were doing.
It's like the article in the news recently. I'm sure you saw it. The lady who threw a lottery ticket away. Another woman stepped over and scooped it out of the trash, went home and found out it was a million dollar ticket. She cashed it in and spent part of it.
The first woman sued and won. She had, of her own free will, relinquished possession of the ticket because the people she thought knew the value of the ticket had told her ith was worthless. However (this is the important part) the court determined she hadn't known the value of what she had so the action didn't matter. It was still, legally, her ticket.
No one can reject anything they can't verify whether or not they have been given clear information on it.
Actually Christ said 'Forgive them they know not what they do" so God was well aware that what happened next would be a big surprise for folk to witness and talk about.
The Resurrection and the fact that 2000 years later Christ is still the most talked about subject in the world, with more books printed about Him than any other book, makes it very difficult for anybody bar a few still unreached people groups, to claim I hadn't known the value of what I had (offered to me)
It's now a simple case of decide yes or no: it's rubbish or it's fact, and the decision we make then determines how we think and live from that point onward.
If the topic setter is correct, then what you decide is meaningless, so you are correct in not needing to decide, your future has been sealed and no matter what you do from here on, you are OK.
I would guess that anyone who stood before Christ and could genuinely claim they had never heard the gospel, would be purely judged upon their lives, God knows our hearts and minds and can see every action we make.
For those of us who have heard what Christ said, I guess the filter used will encompass what we already had been made aware of.
Can you honestly stand and say I did not known the value of what I had (offered to me)?
Aqua. If the core message were simple, there wouldn't be 30,000 sects. None of those who claim they are saved agree.
Let's assume that, out of all of those sects, someone is right within the ranks of the religious. Even then, you can't claim someone was given the truth because it wasn't unadulterated. There were too many dissenting voices within your ranks clamoring for attention.
Whether I think I know the truth, or not, I couldn't prove it even if I wanted to. And pushing my idea of truth as fact puts me in jeopardy of doing more harm than good. That is why people should live their faith for themselves. The example of their life is their testimony.
Christians want to give the Sermon on the Mount. But, we are supposed to pay no attention to their lives. Jesus lived his understanding. It is the example of his life we look toward and compare it to your words. That is why your words lack depth. They don't match up.
Firstly, all of those 30,000 sects agree on the essential aspects of faith, or they are not included in traditional Christianity.
Secondly, you really have no idea of how any forum member lives their lives, you only have words to go by, and as there is a clear lack of understanding in most communications between secular and believing folk, that makes life difficult.
Thirdly, the topic was "Can You Reject Salvation?" and I was referring to that topic, but whilst we are on it, you can join any one or none of those 30,000 sects and still be living under Gods saving Grace, provided that you actually believe in Christ, and obey His commands.
But Christ made some commandments that secular folk chose to avoid.
He was also very clear on points the religious find repulsive enough to ignore. The difference being, 'secular folk' work to understand how their behavior affects others adversely. Religious folk revel in being adverse. They claim God made them do it, even though their words are in direct contradiction to the life of Jesus.
I see heaven as a place that we go. and the Kingdom of heaven as a separate place/position.
As .. John the Baptist would be considered least among the angels in heaven ?????
I think Salvation is one thing and rewards are another.
I posted one verse of scripture earlier in this thread and everyone ignored it. I will repost it here for you.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Pay attention to the bold font. It implies that anyone who does not believe will perish. These words of the Bible are also in red.
Also, John the Baptist is not considered least among the angels because he was a man. He is considered least among the prophets yet Jesus said of him, "There is no greater man born of a woman that he."
Folk only come to Christ when the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin, if someone thinks that they do not sin, or that sin is non existent, then they are closed to Christ and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Christ and His believers have enemies, in the spirit and temporal world, for the simple reason that Christ alone is definitive in saying "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John14:6)
Which itself is such an affront to a rebellious world that conflict is impossible to avoid.
John 10 also raises some points that need answering before a 'universal' viewpoint can be sustained, for surely these verses speak of differences.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Glad to hear that you are still firmly in Christ!
John, read from verse 1 of Matthew 10 and you will note that these verses are in the same discourse of those preceding where Jesus is preparing the disciples to go out and spread the news about him explicitly to Israel. He commanded them not to go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans. Therefore we should read these verses in the light of ministering to Israel at that time.
Therefore with regards to confessing or denying him, he's talking about those to whom the disciples are about to visit here, but even then it requires an assumption to make the leap to the subject of salvation.
When the individual families of Israel hear the disciples' message, Jesus notes there will be conflict within them as not everyone will accept it.
He then gives the requirements for being a disciple and we understand that the 12 did leave everything to follow Him so they are counted worthy. But it's an extremely hard requirement that the rich young ruler could not fullfil for example. Perhaps Jesus was reminding them of the requirements here because as they were about to go preaching and healing the sick, they were bound to encounter a number of people who upon seeing these things would want to join them on their quest. Jesus here is making sure that the disciples don't inherit any hangers on. How many Christians do you know today who heal the sick and go about on a lonely mission having given up everything? I guess the world has very few Jesus disciples by this standard.
As for loosing and saving one's life, this is observably true. Those who live life for themselves often end up loosing all joy and satisfaction, whereas those who have given up everything to be missionaries in the field are probably the most fullfiled and content of all people.
I see nothing about salvation from hell in these verses.
John,
please explain this:
What enemies does Life have?
We do not like the idea because it is simply NOT what the bible teaches. Jesus own statements clearly teach the ways to God - again.
To say that christians twist doctrine to meet their own wants is again a bias statement. To say that christians think themselves better than unbelievers is to say that one gang thinks they are better than another gang and that my friend is just human nature, but do not forget that christians work in opposition to their humanistic natures. Now although it is true that much knowledge puffs up a person please note that christians, being happy in the knowledge of their safety are confident of their situation in life and perhaps this overflowing joy is what you misconstrue to be 'better' than others or perhaps it is a long dead associateless association that is yet another generality that peppers the whole. The meek inherit the earth my friend.
Thanks for this thread DH. You make a very good and important point that most Christians don't seem to understand. If Jesus was actually interested in saving as many as he could from Hell why would he make Salvation such a CONDITIONAL process?
You have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to avoid sin if at all possible and repent whenever you do sin. Heck in the church I went to as a kid they told us you have to be baptized both by water and the fire of the Holy Spirit in order to ever make it into Heaven. Yet if any of that is true than what we're dealing with is not salvation at all, at best it's being offered a hand while hanging off a cliff and then being forced to serve your savior for all of eternity just for helping you out of a jam. Most insulting of all the guy offering to help you created the cliff (Hell) and made sure that you were born already destined to fall (original sin) in the first place.
Thanks TS. I agree, if salvation has any conditions then it isn't a free gift. And if we have to satisfy conditions then it is salvation by works and we can claim that we gained that salvation for ourselves. Then comes pride, arrogance, and a sense of superiority.
The problem here is people are confusing Jesus Christ with religion. Jesus Christ Himself hates religion! Religion makes rules and standards and causes one to miss out on the greatness of life...Jesus Christ says..."Come to Me as you are."
Great Topic!
Chances are DH, if you were there, in that same grove as I was, with your trusty shot-gun fully loaded, and you saved my life--I would surely attribute your courage to God--'lest you think aliens, the devil, or some other "quaalude" gave you the willingness for compassion. I doubt the devil or the frig'n "earth-mother' would've had you save me..rather, you probably would've made me into a sacrifice!
The only thing "conditional" is faith. If you can have faith in a door-knob, a chair, or yourself--why is it such a far cry to place faith in a supreme Being, rather than your own, inept, free-will? When I was in the Afghan, I don't recall ANYONE ever praying to moloch, little green men, or themselves for that matter--after all, none of us have the authority to change but even one hair upon our head. Now, tell me again "what" or "whom" you would be praying too, if your head was about to be shot-off? The "Green Man" maybe? Or how 'bout 'dem aliens? Or we could always open a "government temple" at area 51, so the "incensed and senseless" could make their annual pilgramage to the holy-land, where George Tsoukalis actually farted before ascending 2.25 inches into the great blue yonder. Come on folks! Oh wait, I forgot, we alraedy have the capitol building, and the houses of those that believe in divine gov't intervention!! Haaaaaaaaaaaa....If I saw anyone pointing a shot-gun at me, I would pray...and then run! What would you do, man? Do tell!
That's kind of misstating the case. Of course the shotgun salvation is initiated by you. But you're missing some important points. To further your analogy:
*You and I would have to be in enemy territory where your shotgun is the only way I can stay on the straight and narrow path.
*The enemy would not be bears but people who keep trying to entice me to my doom.
*Said doom, should I choose to reject your shotgun salvation, would be horrible and long-lasting, even if I can't see it now.
*The enticements to stray would have to be a good deal better than thinking that a bear would come eat me for leaving the path.
So if, say, a beautiful woman came with a plate of warm food and I was hungry, then I could reject your shotgun salvation, even if the end result was getting thrown into a sulfur pit.
Chris, my point is not in the details of the analogy per se, but to show an analogy where our situation is hopeless and the salvation comes without any requirements or conditions laid upon us. Acceptance or rejection make no difference because that salvation came regardless. That's the beauty of Jesus' work.
I don't lay conditions on my kids before I forgive them. I forgive them instantly whether they ask, don't ask, accept or reject. If any sanction does follow such as the naughty step, it is not to punish but to discipline and change behaviour.
and it is that false part of religion that says otherwise.
You have expressed this elequently ... NUF said! To add to the truth sometimes takes the chance of adulterating it.
I understand your point, but you missed the point of the salvation as offered by Jesus. I was attempting to clarify it.
And Jesus didn't just come for one or two or three kids, He came for everybody.
I like your analogy!
But like most common sense ,someone will twist it too mean something else.
I guess there will always be people who cause derision.
I find it strange that you listed questions to think about, but then listed the answers to most of them o.O
Here are some questions for you to ponder over...
1. If I did not go tramping with you into the woods, would the bear still have attacked? Most likely
2. If I was not there, who would the bear have attacked instead? You
3. Though the bear attacked me, would your life still be in danger? Yes
4. Does shooting the bear also save your life? Yes
5. Was your act of shooting the bear a purely selfless act? No
6. Was you shooting the bear purely for my salvation? Doubtful
7. Do pompous, self righteous, arrogant, gun carrying morons roam our forums as well as our woods? Apparently
Just chop the bear's head off and mount it on your wall. Don't act like killing a bear while you were traveling with your friend is some virtuous act or that you can grant salvation.
If you were carrying a gun, I would not be traveling in the woods with you. If you did save my life, I would not act so ungrateful, so don't presume to put words in my mouth.
Save your petrol oil and match for your next witch hunt.
What if the bear actually gave his life to save you from your crazy shotgun toting friend, who was just waiting for a reason to point that thing in your direction and fire it? Like in the Gospel of Judas, or something.
Before you can reject salvation, you must first find a reason for it to begin with.
Simple Ray, sin, and if you say you never sin, then you would be lying, which is a sin.
God cannot condone sin, and saying there is no God does not change that, and saying there is no sin is a lie.
That's funny Ray, it really is,that after the life I have led, and having been trained in picking folks brains apart and getting them to do as I wished (before coming to faith that was, in another life I led) and running international businesses, you label ME gullible.
I spent over ten years doing mind control on people, do you really think I do not know exactly what manipulation, intimidation and deception are all about?
As you have confidentiality agreements with whoever you are involved with, so do I from way back, but still effective, even though I would never work in that field again.
Well, only the gullible would be unable to see past themselves to see the truth of the matter of the irrationality of such a belief. Oh well.
Ah, but I am certainly not gullible, so your statement is disproved, maybe generalizing is a dangerous assumption to make as an all knowing being.
It is only disproved if we are to believe your assertion that you are capable of mind control. I doubt many would believe your claim. I know I don't.
Which makes you gullible for thinking you honestly have such an ability.
Lets not take DH's topic off subject, you are entitled to think as you will, it makes no difference to me, or the topic. I was merely answering Rays flippant assumption.
How would you know you're not gullible. Almost every action you've taken and shown on HubPages forums says otherwise because those who cannot see past themselves cannot see they are gullible. So, you can say it all you like, but actions speak louder than your words do.
Wow, ten years doing mind control on people and running international businesses. We have a Liar's Contest here every fall and would like you to be our guest speaker aquasilver, if that is really your name.
My name, my real name, is easily found, but hey, you think whatever you like Lew, that is your name isn't it? Mr Sethics?
I won't answer you, I'm afraid anything I say will be used to control my mind.
Nah, I stopped all that years ago, besides which, looks like your mind is already controlled.
Are you trying to equate this scenario with Jesus' salvation? Not sure what you're trying to get at.
Yes Jane. My point is in this scenario, I have saved you even if you rejected it. So Jesus has saved everyone, thus there is no hell.
DH,
I don't understand how Jesus could have 'saved mankind' as a package deal- are all our sins interwoven? That is, is one if us sinned we are all eternally to blame? We are all born with sin because of it, even before we've had a chance to understand what sinning means? That doesn't seem very just.
But even if we were to accept that notion, (and this is what I really don't understand about the Christian faith}, how could Jesus's sacrifice get us off the hook? How is it in any way moral that one man can save others from their sin by sacrificing himself for them? If I did something horrible and someone else took the punishment for me by laying down his life, that wouldn't right any wrongs - it'd just make things morally worse.
Jesus sacrificing himself on the crucifix makes no more moral sense than slitting a sacrificial goats throat on an altar and expecting it to provide absolution, even if the goat goes willingly. Scapegoats do-not equal moral justice.
Jane, our sins are our own and we do not inherit a sinful state from our parents or fom Adam and Eve. In the psalms David praises God because he made him in his mother's womb. Therefore how can that which God made be sinful or born in sin? It was the Bishop Augustine who had personal issues with sin that invented the Original Sin doctrine. It's a big fat lie. We are born perfect without any sin. It only by subsequent exposure to the world, becoming self aware, and by our on choices that we sin.
Now because everyone has sinned, that God stepped in to do something about it. Say I committed some crime against you, but just before the judge passes sentence, out of love you ask the judge if you could serve the sentence in my place. That's what Jesus did, and it does not depend upon us doing anything.
The sacrificing of animals under the Mosaic law was designed to reinforce the personal cost of sin. If every week I have to hand over a sheep, pretty soon I might decide to stop sinning. But here, this was a pattern of what was to come where God's sacrifice would end all sacrifices.
It's actually a fascinatingly great analogy. Kudos. DH.
It was an interesting one but it missed some key points of actual salvation, what we're being saved from and who is actually saving us.
I get what you are saying and I agree. I think the whole idea of salvation on a cosmic scale has been skewed by too many attempts to justify believing that it wasn't an act of faith. And it's a difficult concept to grasp, unless you attempt to mirror that faith in humanity.
It is easy to love a concept you create and continue to build on with fantasy. Much more difficult to lovingly embrace reality.
Absolutely.
Now some Christians will proudly wear their 'salvation' medal that they think they earnt by believing as if by their believing it validates the salvation. But there is no boasting because, they didn't choose salvation, because Jesus already made it happen for everyone.
If you read the Bible, you'd know it is as Paul said-----a Christian boasts only in the Lord. It's not "credit" that we have for accepting Christ. It's to HIS credit that the offer is even there for us to accept. And what person wouldn't easily Love the Lord who laid down His own life for them/us? Ah. But some do refuse.
Oh contrair Brenda. Christians boast all the time that "they were wise enough to accept Jesus into their hearts", and then take a superior attitude to others.
Maybe some do, I dunno.
And the rest....it could be that the listener hears only what he/she wants to hear and condemns the Christian as boastful.
exactly what happens.
oooh somebody mentioned hell and sin! OMG they are terrorising me.
its just their vain perceptions
No kidding! That's their attitudes!
Well, they kinda alternate between whining and mocking.
I would want to live in both of your shoes and fight the other 10,000 Gods to the End of Time and threaten all the non members of Yahweh with Hell
Have a nice very day
We don't have to fight the other "gods". Jesus already won that battle. We only have to fight the temptation to be swayed by the other "gods". And indeed we need Christ to even do that. Humans have no real power on their own, except the power of choosing.
Let me qualify that just a bit. Christians have the Spirit inside them. And indeed the Bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness. I'm saying the battle is a spiritual/Spiritual one. Jesus already won the battle. But we as humans have to understand that we are not Him, so we have an ongoing battle, one in which we need Christ to win for us. At stake is our own spiritual well-being, as well as that of other humans.
This lopsidedness for a One World Order will only have you loss like The Roman's , Christian Nazi's and the Christian American who are starting to loose their grip on Man kind,
The more you squeeze the more we will slip through your fingers.
My take: You merely only saved my life. To me salvation is eternity, not what takes place in my miniscule amount of time here on Earth. I would also like to argue that your "salvation" was strictly reactionary, not out of grace and love. If the bear takes me, who do you think would be next? Interesting take on salvation though, I really enjoyed this perception.
Yes this saving from the bear is only temporary, but Jesus often presented temporary ideas like bread, grain, figs, pearls, to illustrate eternal things.
Well, Disappearinghead, Mark just answered your question quite definitively. He openly and decidedly rejected Salvation. Who knows for sure his motivation, whether it be to prove he could, or whether he really doesn't care? But are you clear on it now?
By the way, God's willingness to extend the offer of Salvation is what's "unconditional". His Love is unconditional. Jesus died on the Cross while mankind was still in its sins. But as common sense tells us, a person has to be willing to reach out and take the helping hand that's offered to them. That acceptance is the part that's conditional. When the Bible said to choose, it meant choose, and it still means choose.
And that is the limit of Free Will. God can't 'Make' you accept him...but, whether you accept or not, he still moves you where he chooses you to be. Accept, and you go willingly.
Bingo. That love is unconditional under all conditions. In the bear situation, did I stop to wait for you to reach out? No. If humanity's sin was laid on Jesus and he paid the price so it was dealt with, how can God logically remove that sin back from Jesus' shoulders AFTER it was dealt with, then put it back, together with price, on the one who doesn't believe?
If all sin is paid for by Jesus why do you exclude the sin of unbelief and insist that Jesus did not take care of this one as well? If Mark's sins are forgiven, (which they are because that forgiveness was enacted before he was born) how can the single sin of unbelief still be held against him?
If I put you on a plane, would you insist that it is a train? Not believing doesn't make you a sinner. Taking credit or falsely assigning it, and yes, it is forgivable, but only if you accept the origination of it. There is no 'Catch-22'. It is held against you until you accept. The real question should be 'What, or who are we? Is it possible that my soul could continue to suffer if I don't look up and say; ALRIGHT ALREADY! YOU'RE THERE< I REALLY BELIEVE YOU ARE!
To the Christian, not believing does make someone a sinner. They say whether or not you believe in God, it makes no difference, God exists. So it is with salvation.
I am not sure if non-belief is a sin...Sin is more of an action type thing. (or lack of action). Just because someone doesn't believe in a God doesn't make them a sinner. I know plenty of "non-believers" who live free of sin type actions. I even know a few that live better "Christian" lives than the majority of the Christians I know. They just don't know if there is a God or not...
Aquasilver,
An "atheist" does not believe in God (though He may exist), while an agnostic simply says that He does not exist.
The "A" in front of the word is a clue here/
A = lack of.
An a-theist lacks a belief in a god.
An a-gnostic does not know.
Changed your tune then?
Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
LOL
blaspheming the holy spirit means to live in unbelief. While a person lives in unbelief they cannot be saved and christ is also thereby disowned.
Its not a lol situation, its a very serious situation
No - it is a LOL situation.
It is also sad to see a grown man believe such nonsense.
I think they do believe that unbelief is a sin. Otherwise God could not send them to hell for unbelief. They need it to be a sin to support the hell argument.
Surprisingly, Mark just debunked your universal salvation theory. There are indeed some things in the Bible that even an avowed atheist can interpret.
And there are many more Scriptures that verify and confirm that unbelief is a sin. One passage calls it "evil".
Hebrews 3: 12:
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
That tells us that unbelief is a sin, and that even a Believer can reject Christ, which would mean he gives up his Salvation.
There are remedies for unbelief. Praying, asking God to give you a heart of belief and trust, is a remedy. There's Scripture for that. We all make choices. God hasn't taken away our freedom to choose Him or to choose the Adversary.
"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Weird - you are working for the Adversary by living in sin. Divorce is a mortal sin. There are remedies for divorce. Simply go back and live as man and wife with your one true husband as decreed by Jesus.
Oh wait..................
What a bad christian you are. My great Grandma would have known how to deal with an adulteress such as yourself - she was a real Christian.
As usual, Mark, you pretend to not understand the concept of repentance and forgiveness. Or else you understand but choose to take the route of condemning Christians like me. We've been down that road before, and it's a pity you choose to keep veering off onto that tangent. I said there are some things in the Bible that even an avowed atheist can interpret. Are you upset that I didn't say you can interpret everything?
I thank God you aren't God.
So -do you have to repent after every time you commit adultery?
Because I think you will find that committing adultery in the full knowledge that it is a sin and then asking for repentance knowing you will commit adultery again does not wash.
Check with your majik book - you will see I am right. No matter how you twist it - you are guilty of knowingly committing a sin with the intention of getting auto-repentance afterwards.
Oh dear.
Save me a seat by the fire...........
Sorry mark but you are so far out on this one we need to get the hubble to see you.
Gentiles have lived their lives without God and have done things in their life that are against Gods ways. There is no way around this - it is simply fact.
Now jesus died so that past sins or sins up to that point would be forgiven. I am sure you understand the definition of forgiven.
Now in the situation of previous divorce and a remarriage and then that person comes to christ. GOD IN NO WAY DEMANDS THAT THEY SEEK OUT THEIR FIRST PARTNER. Common sense tells you and everyone else this is sheer lunacy.
You need to get out from under the law of the OT and step into the NT with Christ and you will realize this New Covenant far supercedes the glory of the Old Covenant in every way.
And the difference is that Gentiles have lived without the knowledge of God and jewish people are/were taught torah from birth. So they knew about God and do not have a 'shot' at divorce, EXCEPT that moses gave a written decree of divorcement - so even in the OT there was a way out and if this is so, How can there not be forgiveness for past divorces today.
IF you were not so arrogant you might become humble and thereby learn some new thing.
Have you actually read your majik book?
"Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. " Luke 16:18 I have nothing to learn from you other than ignorance and vanity.
Repentance means to turn away from and to do no more...
Hi Brenda
Yes humbling ones self before a greater authority is contrary to the will of the flesh.
But you have reminded readers of Gods solution..
A God who longs to teach ,guide and restore all that the moth has damaged.
Often people only notice BIG sins ie BIG actions ,the world has influenced us to be shocked by sensationalism , but God has always been concerned with the heart,another words not so much about what we do (or who we are) but by what we really think ...( ya 'know the side we dont always reveal on the outside)..
Sin comes with a prescriptions for pain management {remedies} ???
Another shot of Holie-Molie Morphine and everything is good to go?!
But if the med's don't work, then what? But if the preacher -err- pharmacist can't refill the prescription, or biblical insurance runs out, then what?
Like salvation, sin belongs to no man.
Yet, countless attempt to lay claim to the effect of sin, in the same manner they attempt to lay claim the effect of salvation -allop and skewed, for the sake of reason.
`splains the duality, for sure.
James.
No he didn't. That passage in no way states that anyone goes to hell does it, explicitly or implicitly.
As for unbelief, you obviously believe this is an unforgivable sin that is excluded from Jesus' sacrifice.
Anyone who does not believe, will obviously not repent for the sins they accumulate daily in their lives.
It's not the act of unbelief that causes the problems, it's the fact that there is no forgiveness possible by Christ that will weigh the soul of an unbeliever down, by their sins, and lay them open to deception and destruction by the enemy
When my children are naughty, even when their actions are deliberate, they are forgiven by mum and dad instantly, no strings, no need to formally request or accept forgiveness. Any sanction that follows is designed to instruct as a loving parent disciplines their children. Why would anyone think God is different?
When one of the disciples asked Jesus how often he should forgive someone, seven times? Jesus responded with seventy seven times, that is, unlimited. Did that requirement to forgive demand that the offender first came to the disciple to request forgiveness or was it unconditional?
Why would God insist that we must forgive unconditionally without counting, without placing any limits, if He will not also do the same?
If your neighbour was to steal your car, and you forgave them, would God still cast them from his presence for that sin?
What the Church is effectively saying is that we must be better than God on forgiveness, and even if we do forgive, it holds no weight with God if they do not also go to ask him for forgiveness for those sins. Sins that we forgive are still held against them by God, even though He forgave them at the cross.
John 20:23a If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven,
So if we collectively forgive anyone and everyone who has personally sinned against us, then hey, at least some unrepentant sinners will have all their sins forgiven and will thus be saved. Looks like we've got a salvation loophole here.
When John the Baptist looked up and said here is the lamb that takes away the sin of the world, why does the Church not believe him? Why does the Church want to add further requirements to this?
Hi DH, will ponder on that, thanks.
One initial thought is, when you don't take the car for any service, never check the tires, oil or water, drive it badly and crash the gears, will it keep running correctly; because the garage has a mechanic who wants every car to be correctly maintained, and knows that he could fix your car, if you would only bring it in?
Thanks John.
This reminds me of the broad and narrow gate. I've always been told that Jesus is saying here that the vast majority of people are going to hell and only a minority are being saved. But this suggests that the finding of the narrow gate is by our own works, thus it generates a sense of pride. As I read Matthew 7 here, Jesus is primarily talking about lessons for this life, not eternity. So like the car if we don't maintain it, if we don't find the narrow gate, we will not have abundant life in this life, but will have decay, malaise, and ultimately an early death.
I would agree that the majority of Christian think that disbelief is a sin...
I don't think they are correct...
Is it not written that God gives faith (belief) to those that HE Chooses and NOT to those whom he doesn't?
I don't believe that he would send anyone to hell (if it does exist?) .. simply because God didn't give that person Faith!
Still you don't understand the difference between an offer and acceptance of that offer. Nor repentance and forgiveness. It's a rather common mistake. But vitally important.
The offer is perfect, because the Offering (Jesus) was and is perfect.
The intended recipients, however, are imperfect. When we realize that, we are humbled, and hopefully willing to accept the offer because we know HE really CAN save us.
It's not CAN save us but HAS saved us. We cannot accept that which has already been done. If someone offers me £1000 for my crappy car, I can accept or reject because the action is happening now.
I reiterate: I am not a christian. What makes you think they are the experts? Most don't seem to know much about Jesus and probably less about sin. I did say that non-belief will be held against you. (As will all unrepented sin.) Here's the thing. If I say "stop poking out puppy dogs eyes because it is a wrong thing to do...if you don't stop, then forgiveness never comes to the fore. You continue in your old ways, and the blood of Christ doesn't rid you of sin. because you cling to it, The sacrifice can't remove it from you.
Sorry DD but I did not mean you to think I was calling you a Christian.
The sacrifice does not prevent me from doing that which is wrong, but it does cover the penalty for doing that wrong. But that does not give licence to continue doing wrong. I should do right because that is the right thing to do, and not be motivated by the fear of the penalty of doing wrong.
Of course a person can reject salvation through the act of sinning. Whenever we SIN, we are actually and voluntarily, acting in disobedience to God's will. Jesus came to save us all on a "package deal", as this was the Father's will. He died a physical death for all of us up on that cross in Calvary--not just one or two of us. Whether or not we choose to accept this salvation is OUR own decision, which is why God gave each one of us a "will' to use (hopefully for Him). If he wanted a species of morons, He would have had each one of us pre-programmed to serve Him--which we obviously are not (Just look at the condition of the world). Instead, He has opted for us to seek Him, and in turn His Spirit will descend upon us. And no, all of our sins are not interwoven, if they were, we would all have been doomed from the very beginning when Eve slid Adam a big, "Red Delicious" sin (the ironic thing is that the proverbial "apple" of Eve was most likely not an apple, but rather a pomegranate, since apples are not indigenous to the Middle-East). Essentially, we AERE all doomed from this original sin, however, THIS IS THE VERY REASON THAT CHRIST CAME! By virtue of the "original sin" God had condemned mankind, and was ready to wipe him out. Enter (some 10-12,000 years later) Jesus. What many do not realize is that the Jews had been watching for signs of a messiah for centuries prior to the entrance of Jesus; in fact, every Tom, Dick, and Jaime that came down the pike with half a brain and a kind word got picked for messiah duty. The ultimate truth, however, is that JESUS alone was, and is, the true Messiah...not by virtue of contempt, but by virtue of HIS words and acts.
Thank you.
So each time you sin, you reject salvation?
Original sin was unknown as a concept for thousands of years until invented by Augustine. If God made me in my mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully, at what point did he create the sin in me so that I would be born in sin?
Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each of you will die for your own sin.
Thus if Adam and Eve sinned, that's their problem before God, not mine. I will not die for their sin.
Yet that's contradicted by this passage in Revelation (about Jezebel)
2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
2:23 And I will strike her children dead
So if there's no original sin, when Jesus made his ultimate sacrifice it was a kind of pre-emptive strike against all future sinning?
You still didn't explain how the scapegoating of Jesus can be morally just..but nevermind.
I personally find christian dogma surrounding Jesus to be barbaric. Eating the body and drinking the blood....ritualistic cannibalism not too damned far from the Aztec religion.
But, in refusing to recognize the Captain and acknowledge that he is the Captain, give him his RIGHT as Captain, then that puts you in mutiny...and you will be flogged and keel-hauled. Can't just let sinners go on sinning, cause then everybody turns away, and God might just as well retire. (He's not ready yet...nobody has given him his gold watch, and he's not going until he gets one.) I will say that he is a firm believer in "If ya can't mash 'em with might, baffle 'em with B.S."
D.H. I get the impression that you aren't actually non-religious as anti-christian or anti-semite. Islam makes even less sense, but, there is a path that can be followed, one dictated by logic, wherein it all makes perfect sense. Thing is, nobody can give it to you. You have to seek that path. As far as O.S. goes, I don't focus on it because, according to Jesus, a child is the most blessed thing in heaven, and not to be harmed by adults. As far as I know, disobedience is the O.S. and I define O.S. as being that of Adam and Eve. We merely walk in their footsteps. It is a childish thing which we must learn to put away.
Without the concept of original sin, which (according to the idea) we are all complicit in, there would be no need for the big event of Christ's sacrifice to save humanity as a whole. Sin would be on a case by case basis, wouldn't it?.
Why would you be blamed for something someone else did? If that were the case, no wonder everythings so screwed up. I got enough on my plate. Don't you. I would agree that we all commit the same sin. Disobedience...that is, if you are agreed that's what it was. Some would disagree. Whatever it was, it made one monkey hide it's eyes, another hold it's mouth, and the third closed it's ears.
Original Sin is not something that 'happened.' We ARE born with it. It is, quite simply, human nature. It's the tendency every human being has to be selfish and self-serving, even to the detriment of others. This is something every person struggles against and the reason our parents have such a difficult job teaching us discipline and empathy. As my mother used to say, you don't teach a child to MISbehave.
To me it makes no difference what you believe. A man's character is known by his actions, not by his words or beliefs.
Actually, you would be wrong. The "original sin" was an action taken. So, you're wrong. Adam and Eve were not born in Sin. It was their joint actions for which "caused" the original sin.
This would not be accurate, providing the above forementioned original sin, UNTIL Jesus supposedly traded his life for every single person's sin, wiping it out, making everyone all new again.
BS. It is not human nature and to think it is is foolish. Why? Because, no human is or has been determined bad/evil without action. It's understood that humans are good. A baby born is not born into sin. A baby is good.
More BS. People are not naturally selfish.
Really? My parents had no problem raising me. And trust me when I say, my parents were not the brightest bulbs.
Actually, you do if you don't lead by example.
I disagree. Irrationality must be addressed.
This is the only thing you said I would agree with.
Fair enough; this is only my opinion, and nobody has to agree with it. No need to get punchy.
From my perspective it doesn't make sense whichever way you slice it. If there is no original sin then what was the big sacrifice all about? If not all of us are sinners then Christ didn't need to scapegoat himself to save everyone .
If we are all sinners, just because 'everyone sins anyway' then that means we are all destined to be sinners by default, even before we are born and if that's the case we might as well be liable for original sin. We can't win.
I tjink it was all about the covenant which was made with Abraham. and every breach that the Jewish nation executed against that covenant. SOooo a new covenant had to be made. The old covenant had to be balanced out before a new deposit is made. This kinda brings us back to where we were in the first place.
That is the point...we are all sinners. AND...one more time...I am not a christian. Firstly, I know that I have done things against others which I shouldn't. I must repent for salvation. Recognizing, if I were a christian, the fact of Jesus' sacrifice, his sacrifice for me would be in vain if I did not repent. Denial of salvation. Being that I'm not christian, I don't believe in the christian salvation. I simply understand that it's not, nor was it intended to be, a blanket amnesty. It does require one to change their ways, because, by not, it is a demonstration that accepttance of Christ has not yet been acheived by the individual. 'Go and sin no more!'
One cannot accept nor reject what is not theirs to begin with! No one has title-ship or claim to it. No believer or non-believer can say otherwise, no matter how they twist it. They cannot possess nor acquire salvation itself in any respect.
How weaver, one may accept or reject the effect of salvation, which is precisely where this argument exists. One can apply as many earmarks -pro and con- as conceivable regarding only the effect.
What has been argued since is just that, the effect of said gift. The mentality of man certainly has proven the Neanderthal Effect -the Adamic Inception- is still largely accepted even as people accept and reject the effects of the gift of Salvation in a very aloof pseudo form.
Where does the duality end? The grave? The Glory? How will you know until you embrace the probabilities of those effects without reserve, without reason, fear or disdain?
James
James, you summarise the situation very well here, and I'm guessing that you hold the view that accepting or rejecting the effect does not overwrite the gift, so only has effect in this life.
Thanks Kevin.
Yes, I do indeed hold such a view. And, as Emile said, knowledge then and now has changed regarding the relationship between Creator-creation. This was not only expected, but highly anticipated! The continued realization/understanding or reversal of the Inception.
Look at the changes throughout the last five centuries alone, how both doctrines have peaked and are now dissolving. The Effect War is slowly winding down. Science & Sensation can no longer provide validity to their claim of Salvation. Actually, they cannot even retain claim to the Effect, by their own guidelines. What a muddled mess. lol.
After x-thousand years have they realized this? Have they come to terms with the reality they cannot overwrite -or possess/own- the Gift; that unless they genuinely embrace the Effect, by the Effects method, they are chasing tail? I am inclined to 'believe' people are coming close to it, if not directly at that very crossroad.
James.
So we are singing off the same hymn sheet.
It's always a little unnerving to lay ones thoughts bare to the world, but I thought it was about time I made my stand. I may be in error but at least I know my Father will not torch me for it.
Things are written out in such a simple way that we many times miss what is being said. In the words of Jesus Himself, "Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I believe that if someone was saved, he cannot reject it. If one believes he had rejected it, then he wasn't saved at all in the first place.
1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
'That whosoever BELIEVES in him shall have everlasting life'
Can you choose salvation or not?
What comes to mind is .. IF God wanted for you to have it ? Can you keep him from giving it to YOU
Edit Coments were the product of the conversation and not any particular post.
Yes, I rather think you can, as it seems to me that although the offer is to whosoever, which is all inclusive, there are conditions attached.
Reject the conditions and you reject the offer.
Does anyone think that the gentleman reported on here will be acceptable to God without his repentance, from a broken spirit and contrite heart?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … carpa.html
I do not say that he could not have found repentance during his life, I am not the judge of that, but IF he did not repent, who thinks God will save him irrespective of his murderous life and unrepentant condition?
...and would you like to be his room mate if God did offer unconditional universal salvation?
To tell the truth! I don't think it would bother me as much as you think.
That person would be in a different enviroment;e would have gotten over the hurts inflicted upon him that caused him to be the way that he was; and he wouldn't be that way any more. NOT while wearing his white robe.
THAT is; .... "If" he was my roomate ? I quess I'd have to not object.
and hopefully, I understand it?
Why not?
He has (hypothetically) refused Gods salvation whilst alive, murdered a large number of people, and dies in prison of Aids, and then, by Gods Grace finds that despite never making any decision or choice he is saved to spend eternity with God.
Why would he suddenly change into Mr Nice Guy?
And if that is the fact (he gets salvation irrespective of his behaviour) then why bother with anything during this life?
Sorry, my bible states that salvation does have conditions attached, albeit not onerous conditions, but still a decision needs to be made to replace the worlds authority over ones life with Gods authority.
Good points Agua. For more info see the post I made just above yours.
Good points Agua. As Mr. Sir just mentioned - the unbelievers get burned along with all the other abominations. According to your beliefs - our friend Ernest got what was coming to him from the Loving Super Daddy huh?
Our friend Earnest most certainly got whatever was coming to him when he stood before Christ for judgement.
However only God knows what that judgement contained, so your continuing to try and take cheap shots about Earnest is rather irrelevant, personally I would be more concerned about your own condition.
So this is a lie:
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Interesting.
No - I am more concerned with why people such as yourself who feel the need to push this psychopath god-thingy, threaten His fiery judgement, and then say they do not know what god's judgement will be.
Which is it? Do you know what god's judgement is - as you keep telling us you do (and your majik book is pretty clear about) - or do you not know what it is as you also keep telling us you don't?
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts - people like you with no moral compass - and I do find it odd how often you tell porky pies - because liars go to the burning lake along with the unbelievers.
Save me a seat by the fire.
Don't you just love threats of burning desires
The Cognitive Dissonance is strong in this one.
threaten His fiery judgement, and then say they do not know what god's judgement will be.
Just for clarity for clarity is what the unbelieving need:
We know there is judgment of that there is no doubt - so forgive our fervency to show you a need for repentance - but what exactly God will do in the terms of judgment or what God will say we do not exactly word for word know: as in we might say something in an assessory way but judgment, including Gods judgment always in this definition means judicial judgment which includes a penalty for breaking the law. But then again you said yourself all liars go to the lake of fire and that conclusion is biblical. As to earnest, well, mourn away the outcome sure looked inevitable.
I forgive you for judging Mark, Earnest and I, in suggesting we burn in Hell
Would'nt it be funny if only you went to Hell?
No you don't forgive me at all and you have no reason to, but, christ would give you reason to. See how you cannot keep the simplest of Gods ordinances and you think you are funny?
but its okay i forgive your rash and incorrect assessments of what you think you understand about this whole christian thing.
agape'
So, it is not a two way street for forgiveness according to you.. Because Yahweh has the only Worldwide pattern on Forgiveness.
Allow me to forgive you again for not forgiving most the World Population who are not members of the Yahweh fight club
I see - so god could burn believers for refusing to use the brains he gave them and only unbelievers get to go to heaven?
first off you are wrong on the burning aspect but i will give leeway to creedence of this hyperbolic use.
Christians use a lot of their brains. God never said not to. Your perception of brain usage needs to be tweeked, like other aspects of your persona on here. But keep struggling to understand perhaps you will allow yourself the humility to see your wrongs and then you will have become like a child - teachable.
You have nothing to teach other than bigotry and hate. Sorry - I don't want it cousin.
I love being Child like, it's being owned by a greedy one-sided group who wants One World Order I don't care for
Why not get your Brain deprogrammed so your can maybe go beyond and experience many other ways of thinking
Oh forget about it, it's highly unlikely you will change your limited thinking and narrow mind from a one sided book that you can only related to.
This premise of the conditional salvation argument is wrong from the very beginning because you started from a hypothetical in an attempt to explain spiritual truth. What's ironic is that this argument only happens among 'saved' folks. Unsaved people don't go around arguing whether their salvation is conditional or not.
But to add my IMO = 2 cents...The Scriptures are very clear that salvation begins and ends with God and God alone. Salvation is unconditional meaning it does not depend on anything man can think, choose, or decide. The Book of Romans clearly describes the carnal mind as the enemy of God and is not capable of being subject to the laws of God.
Jesus said in the Book of John that He did not come for nor pray for the whole world but those that the Father sent to him.
Consider Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. This is an excellent illustration of how the New Birth works. Your argument is that when Jesus gave the call "Lazarus come forth", Lazarus could have chosen to reject Jesus and not come out. My premise is that Lazarus could never have answered any call until God gave him life because dead men don't answer calls. The book of Ephesians describes us as being "dead in our trespasses." Regeneration comes before repentance. God is the cause, not the effect. We all deserve death. God chooses to save some and give them life.
This theme runs rampant in the Bible. God destroys the earth with a flood and saved an elect few. No one says a word. God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah...all quiet. The book of Revelation describes the Tribulation and how no one left will escape except the remnant of 144,000 that God chose and set aside. No one says a word until you show that God is choosing an elect few to salvation in the midst of a world that deserves eternal death.
My argument can best be summed up by Ephesians 2:8,9, "for we are saved by grace through faith, and EVEN THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. It is the gift of God and not of work, lest any man should boast.
Is not my emphasis above stating that even the faith to believe for salvation is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God so that I cannot go around bragging about the "work" I did to get saved by believing on him?
The difference between saved and unsaved is not about a choice they made. The difference is that God revealed himself fully to a saved person and gave them a new spiritual man that can now understand the matters of the spiritual realm, for we can only worship God in Spirit and Truth. This revelation also happened to Saul on the road to Damascus. God does not do this for people that He has not chosen for salvation.
That is what grace and mercy is all about for His children.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
There would be no need for a second death if everyone will be saved anyway.
Yup - the whole thing is making less and less sense the more you look at it.
What a loving Super Daddy. Burns the unbelieving huh?
Wow - got to wonder why you guys grovel to such a total psychopath. Why is it you claim to worship such an unreasonable deity? Could it be becaue you are fearful?
Save me a seat by the fire.
Not so much the unbelieving, more the un-repented sinners, who may also be unbelievers...and again YOU are raising the subject of burning... how odd?
Please stop lying about me. Mr Sir bought up and quoted about the burning. It says unbelievers, not un-repented sinners. How odd. Can you read?
No moral compass - that is your problem. You do know the Invisible Super Daddy burns liars as well - right?
Save me a seat by the fire.
My apologies Mark, missed his quote from Revelation, but the rest of the statement is correct:
Not so much the unbelieving, more the un-repented sinners, who may also be unbelievers.
Which may or may not apply to yourself, only you and Christ can determine that.
Apology accepted. In fact - I forgive you also.
Weird - no mention of unrepentant sinners in that quote. In case you missed it:
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Copyright Sir Dent)
Correct again Mark... I commend you!
I especially like how you seem intent on proving that universal salvation is a misnomer, and proving it quite successfully from scripture.
Thanks for forgiving me, that's good also.
I obviously need to pay more attention to my bible, your correction is welcomed.
Now you need to take the next step, because conditional salvation does not make any sense with a loving god.
Now your god is a psychopathic nutcase in dire need of attention who burns people for eternity for using the brains he supposedly gave them. In fact - according to the bible - our friend Ernest is being burned as we speak.
I find it hard to understand why you would choose to worship a god like that, or not be able to understand that this belief is so illogical that you need to actually lie to defend it, thereby condemning yourself to the fate you keep warning everyone else about. This is called cognitive dissonance, and recognizing that you have a problem is the first step in curing yourself from this affliction.
...and that is where we disagree, because to me unconditional salvation makes no sense.
If the whole point of any program is to differentiate between those who qualify and those who do not, everybody getting a pass mark is idiocy.
From that observation, it's a short step to understanding that we need to define what constitutes qualification and disqualification, and decide whether we want to qualify, or if we are capable of qualifying.
I deliberately flunked my 11 plus because I did not want to go to Grammar School, and did the same for my GCE's because attending Uni made no sense to me.
Some would say that I made the wrong decisions at that time, and they may be correct, but I did have to make a decision and I made one that ensured I did not qualify, despite the fact that I could have done had I chosen to follow the rules and play the game they offered.
No - it simply doesn't make sense for a loving god. It makes perfect sense for the needy psychopath god you describe.
Your analogy is interesting because you seem to be comparing your god to the flawed system we use for measuring people's worth. Those that pass the test of believing in majik with no proof get in, those who use their brains to determine not to believe in majik get burned for all eternity. What a nasty, pathetic little crapant this god of yours is.
And yet still you defend your choice to worship it.
Which - if you think about it - actually reinforces the point I made earlier. This needy psychopath that sets conditions - well - I don't see how this is worthy of worship and I still don't understand how you fail to see the perverse personal pleasure you seem to get from threatening it's judgement is actually working for your stated enemy.
I don't see how this is worthy of worship
Of course you don't understand. How can you? You have every wall and conceivable barrier up against understanding.
Lets draw on some logic, christian logic.
Genesis 1: God made the heavens and the earth
the Gospels, anywhere: and jesus healed.
How can we not believe that God who created the heavens and earth can not do any other miracles at all in any area. How can we not believe that Jesus healed incurable disease, brought limbs back and walked on water? To just ignore this bible truth surpasses any desire to understand at all.
"and because they chose to believe a vain thing their eyes were blinded".
Better luck next time round.
Oh do you worship luck? O thank my lucky stars... or.... oh boy what luck!
I would rather pray or worship a God that is described and documented than some silly superstition about a thing called luck.
and this is what i mean by learning a new thing, mark. There are quite a few christians who do not believe in a literal burning hell forever and ever and this new theology adheres quite well to a loving God. Quite simply when the next stage of life happens the ones who do not know God will be quite unprepared for this new life and God will mercifully just end their existence, snuff them like a candle flame. I have never said earnest was burning, earnest is just obliterated - so to speak, but not yet, he is still in the grave until that time of judgment, which really boils down to - do they qualifiy, because there are qualifications for everything and eternal life is certainly no different and i suspect it is no different just because of the way it is and not because God sought to impose a preposterously high bar to jump over.
So since all your whinning about who burns means nothing to me except your inability to learn or at least accept, even tollerate some piece of information that might help you better understand what you fight against, I am inclined after this to say that people who fight from your understanding level and weild defeated doctrines to perpetrate a disdainful attitude toward christendom is a reason you cause so many wars.
You need to grow in jesus.
Awesome. SO it is burned quickly like?
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Because the devil is still living in it:
Rev 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Which is it cousin - is the bible correct - or do you know better?
So everyone can move into marks house because there are no qualifications for squatting there.
kudos mark!
see you june 5th.. i'd like a corner room please with a big window.
I welcome just about anyone if I have the space. Glad your god is as welcoming as me. Odd - I thought you had to believe garbage to be let in.
I do not think fear is the major motivator, maybe in times past, fear may have been a tool for the hierarchy and a conscience checker for the masses. But today, because information has grown, we have a better ability to understand the meaning behind the translated word which is especially important in the greek to english or the aramaic to greek. We christians find a new meaning behind the face of the translated to english version when we examine the definitions of words that sometimes we take for granted and thereby we have a deeper appreciation for God because of these 'nuggets'. A deeper and wider understanding of God involves the believer into better understanding the God of heaven and earth and, also, the personal relationship with his spirit definitely aids to a closer friendship with our invisible deity friend.
Clearly most if not all the christians i know are deeply thankful to God for all that He has done for them, which i think, over-rides the fear factor.
This is a little off topic ?
Lets talk about the beast which rises up out of the sea in Rev 13.
God ordains it? God spoke it into being, 300 or 2000 years before it comes into being.
Thinking about this brings a multitude of questions/topics into my mind!
Start a new thread and I will be happy to join in as I can. Right now I should have already been in bed. I have been studying a little in Revelation but not much about the beast yet.
Anyone believe that this sweetheart will be spending eternity with God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … qVhqoHuViw
and if not, where would you put him?
LAWL (One up from LOL)
Sweetie - when you are dead you are dead. No majikal afterlife. No options. No salvation. Nothing. You are dead.
Sorry - see how much simpler that is than these arguments you guys have over what the majik book means and whether the Muslims are correct that you are all burning in hell?
Death takes away the option of choice; it doesn't take away Salvation. That's why a person must choose while they're alive.
Rubbish. There is no such thing as salvation. There is no such thing as an afterlife. This is it. Your psychopathic, needy little god does not exist.
Have you repented for your adulterous activity today?
Well, Mark, today I haven't performed any adulterous actions. And I've been forgiven of the past "adultery".
You can have forgiveness too, if you wish.
Have you repented of your rebellious unbelief?
So - how many times can you commit adultery, repent and get forgiveness knowing you are going to do it again? Is it the same with rapists and murderers? Murder, grovel, get forgiven, do it again?
Is there a quota or something?
I don't need to repent. How funny that you think that stuff is real.
Sooo when you view the sun in its course along the sky. Without prior scientific knowledge your "seen" accountativity of the suns route would probably be that the sun travels around the earth.
Orrrr when you look down do you perceive a spinning planet earth?
Sometimes my friend what we see is not what actually is happening.
No - we have moved on, cousin. We know the earth goes around the sun, and we know the earth rotates on it's own axis.
Or do you deny these scientific advances as well as our understanding of biology?
He was referring to what you do not know, and like those who lived in a time before we did know about the suns route and the earth's motion, you deny anything that has not yet been proven.
Not yet, being the operative word.
LOL
What a feeble argument - seeing as you claim to know something by majik and that is not how we determine these things.
Physical reality is different to majik. Sorry - is that why you are so angry at people who refuse to believe nonsense?
I am not angry at people who see things differently, that is their right, after all before we did know about the suns route and the earth's motion, you would have been a sceptic about those issues also, you just move your ignorance with the times.
How funny - calling me ignorant because I refuse to believe some one such as yourself. What a high opinion you have of yourself. No wonder your religion causes so many fights.
Odd you don't understand you are actually making my argument for me. The reason we used to believe the sun went around the earth was for religious reasons.
We have since proven scientifically that your religious revealed knowledge was actually garbage and the earth revolves around the sun.
The only reason anyone thinks the earth was created by majik is for religious reasons.
Your majikal super being is shrinking every time we make a scientific advancement.
All the things you claim we used to know came from religious thinking. We have slowly disproven them since religionists such as yourself lost the power to murder anyone who questioned their "un-seen knowledge." Evolution, for example, proves man was not created in our current form.
One less piece of religious "un-seen knowledge" down the toilet - won't be long before you have no where left to hide.
Calling me ignorant for not believing the facts you claim to be able to see but I cannot? You are the one moving your ignorance. Claiming to know something which you don't actually know is real ignorance. Try getting a proper education instead of majik "un-seen knowledge," that you did not have to actually learn anything for - you will see I am right.
You don't fancy the education then?
I can't say that I am surprised – knowing something without actually having to do any work is far easier.
And no–time will not tell. You probably don't understand that.
Time is endless in the afterlife and according Aguasilver if we don't obey often enough non nonsensical Christian logic, we will be dammed to hell.
For me, I will be dammed to hell, here on earth, if I don't get a closer understand about people and nature.
Christian logic is not good enough for my entire soul
Evolution, for example, proves man was not created in our current form.
you need to brush up on your evolution understanding also
Is that so? You can disprove evolution? Awesome - show me without asking stupid questions you don't understand and we are good for the Nobel prize for sure.
Sorry you could not understand my post.
I was referring to the fact that what a person sees is not the only truth.
I look down i do not see a spinning planet and yet the planet does spin
When you look around you do not see a God. Yet there is one.
All that you see mark is not all there is.
and that was my point
pretty simple don't you think
Pretty stupid actually. The planet is there cousin. I can see it. See how your analogy is garbage?
Disappearinghead what I get from reading your comments is the idea that salvation is already given.
I'm afraid salvation is not already given we are all destined to hell and it is only by admitting we are sinners and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins can we be granted salvation.
These principles apply only to the believer.
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
―God Is Not Great
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That certainly fits into the picture.
Matthew 18:3
Amplified Bible (AMP)
And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven [at all].
All a matter of perspective....
I think it proves something when people think that God is bound in his actions according to our interpretations of that which is written in a book.
"Go, and sin no more." Seems pretty explanitory. Just because someone professes to be a christian, doesn't mean they are. Tell ya what, Mark...when you get to hell, ask around. Bet you find a large number of one time christians there.
They have the HolyLands theme park near Disneyland
When are the building a ride into Hell? I am game for some wild fun and maybe Mark will find it a blast too
This forum often tries to give us a ride for our time and energy
Maybe we can laugh off Hell to death- together
neither can be laughed off
you will definitely die and be buried one day
after that there is another death
neither will be laughable
lol lol lol
Your group invented the hell ride, now enjoy it,
Oh!!! you want me to join you on the HELL ride, no thanks, it's all yours to play and live with.
our group invented....
sorry but even if we go around the hell point there are so many other scriptures that point to some qualifying and some not qualifying.
Qualifyers get to enter
non-qualifyers do not enter
whether its a burn or not event for the non qualifyers is irrelevant.
God loves and says he will love and that really is the bottom line and the only line which matters in this new covenant of which we are so very fortunate to be able to take part in. It is so much simpler than the prior covenant of law that i often wonder just what people are grumbling against.
Say a few words, invite God into their life and presto! entrance level one accomplished. Now learn and grow... how many people waste their lives doing puzzles and reading oliver twist like tomes or rebuilding cars or anything that only amounts to distraction from the glorious life on earth that God has planned for those that accept him. It really does make life so much more interesting and oh yeah, that other thing about after life that i don't worry about at all - its just another perk!
brotheryochanan
scriptures that point to some qualifying and some not qualifying.
Qualifyers get to enter
non-qualifyers do not enter
So most are not qualifiers, how loving
There is no one who is not saved.
Because if the Gift was reserved, in any manner, it makes everything bogus -meaning it makes Creator a respecter of persons or partial.
However, the effect from that gift can be rejected -meaning the transformation and restoration to Life. That rejection of the Effects of the Gift does result in precisely what Adam went through -and every human being since: death.
So, sorry to the Christians, the issue is not salvation.
The issue has swung from accepting the reality of the Gift to "accepting the person who did the work" for the sake of accepting the work. Thus confirming one thing for sure: "believing if only because of the works themselves". Because there is no genuine faith.
Conditional Salvation is the Law reinvented.
This is precisely what has happened to form Christianity.
To make peace between the Jews and early believing; to make peace with the Romulus-Remus empire; to graft in the pagans of Europe; to established Western ideology, etc etc etc.
James
Interesting point James. What do you say is the fate of those who reject the effect? God told Abraham he would rest with his fathers, which would include Adam.
Jimmy boy is a believer in conditions as well - he just wraps it up in esoterisism and pretends his ism is better than anyone else's.
There is a far, far simpler explanation............
Tsk, tsk, Zacchaeus, climb down from your lofty perch, in that terebinth tree, and let's talk a while.
Are you suggesting Mark is a short-arse?
and naturalism is my least favorite ism
especially when compared to christianity
it fails to measure up.
How is that exactly? It is natural - as the invisible super being intended - not?
Correct, and Abram did.
It took nearly 1,000 years for the final effect of the Inception to occur in Adam, but eventually it did.
I always find it odd that most of the believing forget -or just overlook- the points in Torah -like say Passover or the Mercy Seat above the tomb of the law, staff, manna. Like Petra's brief, but astounding moment of "un-anointed faith". But the most troubling point, the epicenter if you will, the grave. This was what the entire dieing, buried, resurrection event was all about. Sure, lots more items included. Many know those earmarks, like the reversal of Babel, etc.
Short of it, Kevin, those who reject the effect die like the rest, I suppose.
Now, here is where New Age ideology takes over and stories about the 2nd-3rd Coming and this devil-dude incarnate, yada, yada. By making an excuse for rejecting said gift, but "accepting the person who did the work" & for "believing for the sake of the works themselves", now have a "salvation loophole". That loophole seemingly grants justification and proliferation of religion -be it technological or sensational. Which, to me, is still the Tree of Knowledge at work.
James
{funny humor from an old southern friend of mine: yup, ev`ryone seems to be laboring alright, and a lot of work being done. But, doesn't look like anything`s been accomplished `cept for the fact there's been alotta working & alotta laborin`."}
I think we read to much into this idea of adam being a father of abraham.
Resting with the fathers is an idomatic way of saying
a) the tribe
b) those only who are accepted by God
fathers does not define: all those who ever lived.
That's the difference I'm trying to track, Mark. Original thought, inspiration, true invention relies on seeing clearly something that doesn't exist, and seeing all of the possibilities. You have no vision...therefore you are blind. You aren't seeing clearly, grasping to your own truth and letting nothing dissuade you from it. You'd make a fine christian.
Sorry you don't understand. True invention relies on seeing what is possible and realizing it - not pipe dreams and lies of Druidism.
You do make a fine Christian.
True invention lies in seeing what could be and moving toward that point.
Some see a life of beauty, truth and grace in God and they move toward that point.
You come along with your "reality is only dictated by the 5 senses" rubbish and try to evangelize, wait, maybe brainwash - through repetition, you are quite the broken record in here - and try to rain on people's parades because you thought to enter into a forum with believers when you don't believe. hmmm.
and you say christians don't use their brains, thats a bit of laugh - if it weren't so seriously psychotic of you.
My mother is in the last stages of alzheimers. Do i blame God? No. In fact i have it all sussed out and am fine with it. I travel to ontario this week to adopt power of attourney and move them to where i live. Mom has always believed in Jesus - howbeit in an anglican way - but i thank God that he is removing the distractions of life from her to have a private chit chat. This may not seem like love but trust me God is always fervent to save people.
Did you know that the spiritual aspect of people remains throughout this debilitating disease. She knows all the songs of her church still and she gets excited when jesus is mentioned and really enjoys prayer time.
LOL
What a feeble argument. Reality is dictated regardless of your 5 senses.
Sorry you don't like being evangelized at. My mistake - I thought you guys were doing unto others as you wanted to be done unto.
You are lying when you say that IO take it?
Mark knows all. Mark sees all. Thought his last name was Know les.
The best comedians don't laugh at their own jokes. Bad form. It's best to deliver your one liners deadpan.
In the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, what did He say? "Forgive them Father, for they know no what they do." I think that about sums it up for me. At least, I think that statement is way more important than most Christians seem to think so, and it might give DH's view a little credit. If Jesus admitted that people don't know what they are doing, and asked God to forgive them for it, did God forgive them? Why did Jesus say it. This is for the Christian to ponder.
I don't believe in this God, but, it's a refreshing, more coherent view of an all loving God, who needs no credit, who has no petty human needs/wants/actions.
I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at, though I think I agree with you for the most part. It was a very important statement, and it's been pored over for centuries by theologians. And preached on from pulpits.
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