Apostle Paul got it all wrong.

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IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years ago
I think that the Christian religion would have been entirely different, if Apostle Paul hadn't screwed things up. It is my firm belief that if Christians really want to be Christ-like, they need to have a dual faith based, religious, belief system. As it is, how can any of us Christians expect to get to heaven, when we don't follow God's laws except for 10. It seems to me, that Christians should closely mimic the ancient practices and traditions, such as our Jewish and Muslim brother and sisters do. Why don't we? Why are so many Christians so against a Judeo-Christian foundation? Christ was a Jew. Early Christians were all Jewish. Why didn't Paul take on Christ's faith, when Paul supposedly embraced Jesus as his Saviour? I think he seriously screw things up and got it all wrong.

What's your thoughts and views?

Thanks
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  Godsweirdsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  spiderpamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have to go back to the sacrifices of the old testament. People would sacrifice a lamb to cleanses them of their sins. The prophets foretold of a "lamb" that would end all scarifies--Jesus Christ. If we try to justify ourselves by the Law you will be condemned by it. Why? Because we have broken God’s Law. We’ve either lied, stolen, lusted, coveted and if you break 1 you’ve broken them all, that’s why Jesus came. If we could save ourselves What did Jesus die for? Remember what Jesus told the Peter? If you want to view more on my take I wrote a hub call “You can’t buy Grace”. I hope this helps.
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  Sunny Riverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The thing about the ancient practices and traditions is that, as Christians, we DON'T NEED TO FOLLOW THEM ANYMORE. Know why? Because every one of those sacrifices paled in comparison to the perfect sacrifice-- Jesus Christ. Once he had died and risen, there was no longer a need to sacrifice in atonement for what we have done because the ultimate sacrifice had been given to pay for those sins. It's the wonder of forgiveness that we don't have to do those things anymore and the reason the Jews still do is because their faith basis is completely different from that of Christians.
  
  The heart of Christianity is centered on the belief that Jesus Christ was the savior. Jews DO NOT believe this and are still waiting for the savior they think is still to come. Therefore, it is impossible to have a Judeo-Christian faith because at the heart of it the two religions believe two completely different things that are totally incompatible.
  
  As for Paul, he was also a Jew. HOWEVER, the thing many people fail to realize or remember is that it was the JEWS that were promised the savior and they were supposed to spread their faith and bring the Gentiles into it rather than become an exclusive little group of "holier than thou because we were chosen by God and you weren't". That is what the Jews became and so they failed in the mission God had given them to bring others to him and set an example for the world.
  When the Jews as a whole failed to see Jesus for what he really was, God turned from the Jews and they were no longer his chosen people, because EVERYONE was chosen now that Jesus had died and risen for THE WHOLE WORLD.
  
  So, no. Paul didn't screw anything up. He had it right and the Jews as a whole couldn't see that, which is why they're still waiting for their savior to this day and we can rejoice in our assurance of eternal life.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OMG! Paul was not a Jew. Gee'z, I think someone went to the wrong Sunday School.
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  underhiswingsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shaul was not a Jew?
  
  Not a single account anyplace in history says that.
  No historian in their right mind would agree with you!!!
  
  He was not a Jew? Oh yeah right, that is why he was allowed to teach in the Synagogues anytime he wanted to. He was a Pharisee as well !!!
  
  No dialogue recorded of him talking to anyone states that they said
  "you are not a Jew, you are a liar"
  
  Have a clue
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  Dorine Cousinsposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  But in Matthew Jesus tried to restore order in the Jews first, he told his disciples to go heal the lost of the house of Israel casting out unclean spirits and specified not to go to the Gentiles as of yet. So I'm a little confused because he still put them first.
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  Ken R. Abellposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paul was also Jewish, a Hebrew of Hebrews is how he referred to himself.
  
  You ask why so many Christians are against a Judeo-Christian foundation. Not sure where you come up with that since the Bible contains Jewish Scripture (Old Testament) & Christian Scripture (New Testament), & Paul is the one who wrote that ALL of it, the whole counsel of Scripture was inspired by God.
  
  Christ centralized the Ten Commandments into what is known as the Great Commandment, which by the way he pulled out of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."
  
  Paul picked up on that & wrote to the Romans: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law."
  
  The Ten Commandments are the foundational cornerstone of western civilization, but since in the context of your post you posit Christianity as a religion, keeping all ten as intended by God & explained by Christ most clearly in the sermon on the mount, is an impossibility.
  
  It is a matter of the heart, as Christ made clear again & again.
  Christianity is about relationship; the vertical relationship between humans & God; the horizontal relationship between each other. While we were yet sinners God loved us & gave his only Son that we may come into relationship with him.
  
  God loves us, we are to love one another. Jesus proclaimed that & Paul build upon it precept by precept. And near the end of his life when he was imprisoned in Rome for preaching Christ, Paul wrote to some friends in the city of Philippi & told them that he wanted to know Jesus more & more & more so he was pressing on to do just that; it was his burning passion to be faithful to the risen One who he encountered on the Damascus Road.
  
  All that to say, I do not think Paul got it wrong or seriously screwed anything up.
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  Danny R Handposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  underhiswingsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First off, many Gentiles were among the earliest of believers, or have you not read the book of acts? Peter, a Jew, went to the house of Cornelius and preached to his whole family and baptized them all as well. He was a Roman.
  
  You obviously do not understand Paul.
  
  And if Paul had things "all screwed up" as you erroneously stated, then Peter, James, John, Barnabas, Jude, Luke, Mark and etc...etc...all followed him headlong into destruction because they believed what he taught.
  
  So your issue is with all of those and all of those who believed what Paul taught and preached.
  
  GOD struck people dead in the New Testament account just for lying to the Holy Spirit about a sum of money they sold property for and exaggerated. So don't you think that if Paul (and all the rest who believed him) would have been struck dead as well for lying about things far greater than money?
  
  YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT A LIE.
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  ICEMAN84posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My Friend,
  
  The commandments are all summed up in these two as the Christ pointed out.
  
  Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and strength, and the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. In these two commandments lie all the law and the prophets.
  
  We cannot say that we love the Lord and hate our brothers and sisters. To do the one without the other is impossible.
  
  Christ came to fulfill the law of the Old Testament not to replace it.
  
  For a great vision of the Christ read Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmadge 1862 - 1933. It is A Study of the Messiah and His Mission According to Holy Scriptures Both Ancient and Modern.
  
  You can read it only at http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/22542
  
  Another excellent source is
  The Life and Words of Christ by Cunningham Geikie.
  Publisher:
  Appleton
  Place of Publication:
  New York
  Publication Year:
  1913
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  GreatContentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paul was a Pharisee. He never contradicted the words of Christ. Although it may seem like he did, but in reality, he did not. Paul was very learned, and so in order to understand much of his words, one should get some education in the Torah.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As you stated Christ is/was a Jew. No christian in his right mind would speak ill of the Jews, as a matter of fact as a Christian I have the jews to thank for my religion and my beliefs.
  
  My Bible is comprised of the Hebrew books in the old testament, The Torah, as well as the books of the new testament and those in the new are by far outnumbered. The Jewish person is my brother, who's only fault is that they do not recognize Jesus Christ as The Christ We are closer than you might know or believe.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate the fact that God favored them in the first place, and some of them recorded their history.
  But I believe that they lost all favor with God when they did not anoint the most high (Daniel 9) When their 70 weeks were expired, the favor That God had placed with them also expired.
  Now we are all brothers shareing in the grace of God if we want it.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. However, there is a revival taking place amoungst our Jewish brethren in the form of Messianic Jews. They are very learned in the Torah and the Prophets. The Church has the revelation of The Holy Spirit and the Jews can find Jesus in the Torah. With the two working together you have a mighty combination. It is my opinion that these two groups represent the two prohets in Revelation chapter 11.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Been working all day. Back for a little while...
  I was speaking of the Hebrew Nation loosing that special favor that they had had over and above all others.
  God had chosen the Hebrews for no specific reason other that to choose a group of people to work through and for.
  He chose the Hebrews to express to the rest of the world how great it could be to be his. And this worked for a while until they turned their back to him and worshiped other Gods.
  Then the Lord withdrew his favor. He knew what would happen after he does this. He sent his prophets to share this knowledge. And these messages have been "INTERPRETED" to the point of obscurity.
  That is my opinion !!
  
  As far as the two witnesses are concerned..I'm not sure what they represent. They however are given 1260 Prophetic days that they prophesy.
  This length of time would have be something close th the same period pf time as the Beast was given to Blasphem.
  
  I think this period of time is equivilent to approx 1640 of our years. For both the two witnesses and the Beast.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend IntimatEvolution
  
  You are very right. It is Paul who messed the things up. He never believed in Jesus; he was an enemy of Jesus and his friends and remained as such, only he changed his strategy. It is Paul who created wedge between the believers and Jesus.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, Paul didn't just create the myth of Jesus, he created a wedge between the people and the myth? Wow!
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ....
  
  Jesus man- the Messegner Prophet, existed and his truthful account of life are mentioned in Quran- authored by the Creator- God Allah YHWH, there is no doubt about it.
  
  Thanks
  
  I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, there is doubt, a great deal of doubt. There is so much doubt, you'd have to build a twelve story grand entrance way with a huge sign over the doorway saying, "Doubts of Islam" just to let them in.
  
  By your command. Zzztt...
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Born Again 05posted 14 years ago
No one can keep the ten commandments. Paul didn't have it all wrong. He had it all right! Everyone lives in sin. We were born that way...it's our default setting. Christ, sinless, came to pay the price for our sin atonement. You can not earn your way into Heaven by any good works or practicing religion. Only by repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Christ alone can you be assured of eternity with Him. 1John5:11,12 tells us, " And this is the testimony. God gives us eternal life and the life is in His son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Accept the Son and be assured of spending an eternity with him!
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  Jesus did not pay any price; there was no deal for that. Jesus did not die on the cross.
  
  I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
  
  Thaks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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maharbaposted 14 years ago
Amen, May God bless you and make your postings a a real eye-opener for people living under the bondage of sin.

Thank you.
Abraham
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Godsweirdsonposted 14 years ago
I don't think Paul got it wrong, the church has gotten it wrong. We CHOOSE to look at the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and totally over look the Dispensation of the Mystery as recorded by Paul in Ephesians and Colossians.
We choose to confuse ourselves by trying to combine the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. And further add to the confusion by trying to say that believers are both the Bride of Christ AND the Body of Christ. You can't be both!
Its just like with the four Gospels. The first three pertain to Israel and the offering of God to give them their earthly Kingdom. But the Gospel of John is our Gospel for today. Its NOT a Jewish book. If it was, he wouldn't have to define Jewish terms 17 times.
If you would like to discuss this further e mail me at godsweirdson@yahoo.com and I would love to continue the discussion.
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UPStarposted 14 years ago
Thankfully we dont get to heaven following rules. The rules actually demonstrate our inability to get to heaven, and show us our desperate need for a saviour. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Godswierdson wrote And further add to the confusion by trying to say that believers are both the Bride of Christ AND the Body of Christ. You can't be both!

And the Church can not be the mother of Christ; which many Churchs interpretes Rev. twelve to represent.
Is this right. The church gave birth to; was then the body of; going to be the bride of ??? I cain't believe that.
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Will Apseposted 14 years ago
Paul was a master architect of the mind. He understood what people wanted and wrapped it up in philosophy that went viral.

He also saw that the national and nationally exclusive religions of his age could be supplanted by a transnational, inclusive religion that appealed across all borders and all times.

It's a shame he couldn't have dumped the Old Testament with its nationalism and all those absurd prejudices but then the New Testament is a bit thin on its own.

If Paul was around today, he would be head of promotions and advertising at Coca-Cola. After the success of his religious strategy how could they refuse him?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  Paul was a clever man; he invented a new religion and named it "Christianity"; Jesus had that time gone to India and in his absence he made up this think called "Christianity". It has nothing to do with Jesus or Jesus' teachings.
  
  I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I don't think that Paul could have left out the old testament and had a story to tell.
Scripture says that God chose the Hebrews to introduce himself to the world.
To begin with almost nothing and build a mighty nation.
It was a progressive plan. He then showed to the world what happens when he is rejected. Paul was then chosen to tell the story to the Gentiles. Following rituals did not work well with the Hebrews; Jesus died on the cross abolishing ritualistic observance of Gods Laws. Paul introduced The NEW COVENANT through the rest of the world. When the disciples preached in the trade centers of the world people heard the message and carried it around the world.
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TMinutposted 14 years ago
We don't keep the law on our own but that's the point. With the spirit in us, we now can. That's why we're told to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Nobody said that will 'get us to heaven', it's what we do because Jesus paid the price for sin, reconciled us to God. He didn't come keep all the law, fulfill the requirements, die for our not keeping them just so that we don't have to anymore. We're supposed to walk as he walked, do what he did, and live as he lived.

There are two ways to take the word fulfilled too. One is fulfill by completing; the other is to fulfill by...well, fulfilling. Like you fulfill the requirements to be accepted into a college or to be hired for a job.
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
who's opposite Paul?
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TMinutposted 14 years ago
God said he blinded the Jews so they couldn't see and will graft the Gentiles in. I'm not a Jew so guess I'm a graftee.
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Also, it wasn't just Paul's idea that non-Jewish believers did not need to convert to Judaism.
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TMinutposted 14 years ago
Ken wrote: Paul is the one who wrote that ALL of it, the whole counsel of Scripture was inspired by God.

But remember, Paul could have only been talking about the old testament, that WAS scripture; he also said anything that didn't agree with it was a lie.
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  Ken R. Abellposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is a fair issue to raise, though my point was that Paul's words were instrumental not only in the development of the New Testament canon, but also for inclusion of the Old Testament as Scripture for Christians.
  
  For those who want to dismiss the Judeo dimension of Christianity, I'd urge them to read "The Bible Jesus Read" by Phillip Yancey.
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TimTurnerposted 14 years ago
As I understand it, Christianity has Paul to thank for the spread of the religion because no one did after Jesus died.

He got Romans to start believing in it and when a future Roman Emperor (Constantine) made Christianity the official religion, that is when the religion exploded on the scene.

Without those two individuals, Christianity wouldn't be the #1 religion in the world today.

But Islam is catching up pretty quick....
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
Was Paul a Hubber?
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TMinutposted 14 years ago
Paul claimed he was a Jew and a Roman citizen as well.
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  underhiswingsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He was, he purchased the Roman citizenship, perfectly legal then and never disputed. It was not a claim at all, but a fact.
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
I'm curious, did anyone else think this was just a clever, backdoor scheme to get people to come look at her hub and hubpage?

Clever, but sneaky. Anyone else who self promotes themselves, would just get banned. So I'm wondering, why is Paul so special?
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  lyricsingrayposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  my mistake wrong apostle.
  
  sorry about that
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TMinutposted 14 years ago
lyrics, I just looked back through quickly but don't know whose page we would look at. I thought I saw a ref to someone's hub but don't see it now. It's late, I'm old(ish), what can I say?

Which apostle WERE you thinking of?
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WriteAngledposted 14 years ago
I think Paul was a very bitter and twisted soul, who introducted joylessness to Christianity.

We were in Veria (Boeria) a while ago. Apparently, Paul set up an altar there after being thrown out of Thessaloniki. We did not visit the altar. Instead, we raised a glass to the Thessalonikans for throwing him out.
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Amezposted 14 years ago
Whats really a blessing today is that we can choose how we wish to serve our Creator, and interpete his Laws. after all we will one day stand alone within our own Thoughts of judgement or Sactisfaction on the choices we made as we traveled through time, what even more wonderful we can choose to either enter the Light and complete our journey within this world of many are return to Strengthen and prefect our character and Nature, while expanding our Spirit and Soul so to prepair oneself to be far more worthy within when the moment comes that you will walk in fellowship with Our Lord Jesus, Just to truly appreciate that which he gave us, by giving forth his blood of life so we might have the oppurtunity for everlasting life and the choice to one day walk and followship with him before you go forth and see other parts of Our Heavenly Fathers Universe.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely! And every good boy deserves favor!
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jpop13posted 14 years ago
Well last time I checked the Bible includes both the old and new Testament. So that about ends your debate, we fallow all of Gods laws, while we ALL break them at one point or another. The only way to heaven is through christ. For he came to complete the law.
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
accurately, the 'bible' is missing a lot of Torah/Tanahk/Talmud.
so the premise is obsolete. If you want to really understand Y`shua and His work, might want to actually and completely study covenant.
else, you are just spinning webs, wheels and words that you really do not understand...

...i mean no offense, jpop13, but it ALL is because of and goes back to covenant...
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Holy Catholic church choose to only include the works that it did in the Bible b/c of the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, for Christ told his people that he would always be with them. And I doubt that in the most crucial of all events in Christian history after his birth, death, resurction and Peters death in rome he would'nt have any influence in the matter.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well, that certainly sums it up. The "holy" Catholic and Apostolic Church. Only problem is there are no more apostles and certainly nothing holy about the organization.
  
  church and bible are so overcooked; reminds of shoemaker cooks.
  
  perhaps people will again resume where the work of Y`shua & the Spirit really is -in each person who actually believes. not the fence dwellers, or wishy-washy, but the faith full.
  
  ...just a thought.
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Roman Catholic Chrurch is'nt wishy washy about any thing, we have an infalible interpreter, the Pope, the spiritual successor to Peter him self. We will always have the apastole peter with us. The iluminated church with the light of the holy ghost will always remain holy and not even the gates of hell will over come it. That was a garentee by Christ him self.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This would be the guy who has never had sex, yet wants to control everyone else's sex life? This really is the blind leading the ill informed.
  The pope is an abomination to all thinkers!
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yea the Pope is God on earth.... I think that a couple of them even said so.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't get me wrong I am all for the faith. But I think that the Universal church has done more to discredit God and Jesus Christ more than any other system ever could. The Church that the Roman Empire Built sent Religion down the wrong path by teaching just a few untruths.
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  untruths? Like what? And in what way shape or form have the church dicredited God and christ?
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, he's not god on earth, he is mearly the final say on all moral and faith based issues. Also the pope doe'snt want to control any ones sex life, the bible speaks for it self on that matter. Its also funny again how people can consider them selves christians b/c they fallow the bible but yet knock the catholic church for being anti biblical, lol.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is a crock!
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice, keep trying to justify your sins, I'm sure that will get you really far.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sin is a religious concept. The idea is to put the devil in the corner and apportion blame.
  The madness of this is obvious when you understand this fact.
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  apportion blame, lol. No sin is worse then another, also we are expected sin we are not perfect and that is why christ died.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No sin is worse than another? So rape is on a par with mixing the fabrics that I wear?
  Wottalottarot!
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hear ya Earnest. Some sins required death of the one who sinned while others required differtent things. Mostly cleansing from without the camp or sometimes a sin offering.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sin? Define it.
  The "WHY" of Jesus' death? I think you need to re-examine your interpretation and add a little historical facts of what actually happened.
  
  Why did Jesus died? It was the religious leaders of that time, were threatened by Jesus' work/teachings. They KNEW Jesus' was not preaching "religious leader's accepted" religion. He(Jesus) specific tells you not to believe in religion's false idol.
  
  Jesus' teachings, were taught in a religious primitive language. Meaning, when he taught those who came to him, he used his gifted talent for speaking, so as to confuse the religious establishment and he could do his work.
  
  What Jesus was really teaching to his followers? Is skewed by religion's "GOD" concept. Because too many people have fallen down on their hands and knees, pray to a false idol.
  
  It's kind a sad, if you really think about it.
  
  It's all about control.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If he ever existed, the true story would be that he was tortured by a bunch of zealots. Just not his zealots, although even they were supposed to be implicit.
  
  It is all bulldust! The JC stories happened along time before jc. Just like the flood, it is an archetypal event that took place in the subconscious of the whole inhabited world. You can hear this junk in every culture, only the names and times are changed.
  It is pure unadulterated clap trap.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All that ya gotta do is read the history of the first ten or twenty popes and ask yourself if they fit the standards as perscribed in the NT for any position in the church?
  If it were a Holy institution do you thing that God would have allowed that kind of foundation to be established?
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've read it, again what did any of them do that was so wrong? You might want to read acts, it clearly points out that Jesus wanted his church in rome, in the new jerusalam. That is where the faithful were after the Jews in Isreal rebelled and the Roman empire crushed the region.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You wouldn't believe me any way... Ya need to read about it in something other than the Churches biography.
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  creationmomposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  jpop13, In one of your replies 2 days ago you said the the pope is "the final say," and also that the "Bible speaks for itself." From this, I gather that you believe the pope and the Bible, correct?
  
  What I am sharing here is from a book entitled, "Understanding Roman Catholicism," which I found at: www.chick.com/reading/books/160. I read this book in order to be able to intelligently and in love, discuss her Catholic faith with a friend of mine. I hope that you will accept this comment in love, also. I am sorry that it doesn't Copy/Paste very well.
  
  The Pope: Infallible
  
  According to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.
  "In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith." Pg. 235, #889
  The Catechism restates the same belief this way:
  "The Roman Pontiff... enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals... This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself." Pg. 235, #891
  Sadly, this doctrine is but another tradition of men that contradicts Scripture. The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:
  "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23
  "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10
  Notice, you didn't read, " no one, except the pope." Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:
  "For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin..." 2 Corinthians 5:21
  Are other Catholics infallible too?
  The Catechism further alleges that other Catholic leaders have also somehow achieved this state of infallibility:
  "The pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church' s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals." Pg. 235, #890
  "The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed." Pg. 495, #2051
  It is important to understand that God did not declare these people to be infallible, other sinful men did.
  Scriptures overflow with stories of sinful people. Even those whom God used the most were sinners. God referred to King David as "a man after mine own heart" (Acts 13:22), yet David was a murderer and an adulterer, among other things.
  The Apostle Paul and all the other apostles were sinners. Paul said of himself:
  "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" Ephesians 3:8
  Nobody in Scripture, except Jesus, was infallible.
  More questions:
  Aside from being unscriptural, this far reaching doctrine raises other important questions which you must answer for yourself:
  • When the pope and other Catholic leaders, who claim to be infallible, disagree with God' s Holy Word, then God must be wrong. Are you willing to accept this?
  • Why does the Catholic church want you to believe that the pope and other Catholic leaders are infallible in matters of doctrine? Is it to bring members into further bondage and obedience to the Catholic church?
  • Where do fallible men obtain the authority to declare other men infallible?
  
  Please check out the book at chick.com. Any intelligent replies that I would give you to further posts would come from this book.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes you did say he was infallible, unless you wrote it incorrectly.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yah the apostle peter.. why was peter crucified by the church? Because he wouldnt uphold mary and neither would he pray to angels or saints who are just other people. You catholics have nothing but antichrist and blasphemy written in your names and your foreheads. Its disgusting the doctrinal lies that u purport.. paying to get out of purgatory... its all about jesus, nothing about mary and the pope is totally a failure
  god bless.
  hugs.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whats it to you what we do? Are you being forced to practice the beliefs of Catholicism or forced to participate? NO! So bugger off with ya. Personal attacks and hate speech is not tolerated here on Hubpages.com. So curve the attitude.
  
  Nobody here deserves to called the Antichrist or blasphemers. It is okay to believe what ever way you want too. That is your God given right.
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  Norine Williamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  You have a choice (Joshua 24:15) "to believe what ever way you want too" but it's NOT "OK" with GOD (I Corinthians 10:21)!
  
  Galatians 3:1 "O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"
  
  Galatians 1:6-9 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the "GRACE" of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; BUT THERE BE SOME THAT TROUBLE YOU, AND WOULD PERVERT "THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST." But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. As we said before, SO SAY I NOW AGAIN, if ANY MAN preach any other gospel unto you that that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED!"
  
  I Pray!
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  jpop13posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well funny you should mention covenant, we are to remain faith full to christ and recoginize his holy church. But you are right, its the personal covenant with christ that matters. We are to have a covenent with christ before any service to him. Amen brother.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i am only going to say this:
  
  "The day is coming when you will no longer worship Elohim on this mountain NOR IN TEMPLES made of stone.
  True worshippers will worship Him in Spirit AND in Truth.
  
  btw, since when is an elected/appointed official aka pope, 'infallible'???
  also, name 3 things -without Google- listed in your New Catholic Catechism or your knowledge directly regarding covenant...
  
  better said, Hebrew covenant with Elohim.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Howdy 21days.. Hope ya doin good today.
You are adsolutely correct. I think that Jesus was talking to his desciples in that instance and many other times that people would like to think that he was talking to us when he wasn't.
After the dispensation of the Hebrew Nation we entered into the "Times of the Gentiles". And in my opinion many things changed.
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
hey Jerami. Had a smashing day. Relaxed with my son @ the park. Snow finally melting. Peaked in here only to find the same old same.

how are things by you?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just gettin older and more decripid. Rested today doin nothing. Stayed off of this most of the day.
  Too much jiberish.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, Jerami. You sound so sad. I'm sorry
  
  I'd give you a big hug if I could. {{HUGS}}
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks I need that. Today has been a bit depressing.
  Did you hear that in my tone of foice ? Or was the "old and decripid" the tip off.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know...the whole post just kind of oozed sadness, man...It made me feel sad myself, and I thought, "No good!"
  
  I'm going to have think of a joke or something. Unfortunately, I'm terrible at conscious humor...
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think a joke will help right now but thanks.
  Have you ever had one of those days that "everyone" that you run into needs to be told off but you don't want to sink to their level?
  I think that I've had too many days streight.
  It's a b==ch knowing they need to hear it, but won't.
  
  sorry for taking so long to reply 86 year old Moma called; just got off the phone.
  Any way thanks for the hugs. Makes me feel better.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
What is the game today? My non existent god is more right than your non existent god?
If religionists could only see.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  got any scripture to back that up? any book at all? anything other than what comes out your nose and prophetically writes you a message?
  Your god is yourself and i haven't read one sound word worthy to believe that you have ever written. If i were to follow you i would surely die. I'm glad heaven is not for that which remains crooked.
  shall i mail you some shake n bake to go with your fry?
  
  now thats funny!!!! hahahaha
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
What about Peter and Mary?.......
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  did one of them say knock knock?
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
twenty ond days quited ...
"The day is coming when you will no longer worship Elohim on this mountain NOR IN TEMPLES made of stone.
True worshippers will worship Him in Spirit AND in Truth"

I realy like that !! Now I remember reading it but don't know where. would ya tell me please ???

Like many other verses that are simply stated, this one was explained away somehow.
Though it says it all.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  John 4, which confirms rev 22.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for info.
  and thanks for not commenting on spelling.
  didn't proof read.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no problem.
  that is only part.
  
  i believe the rest in is Hebrews.
  Which btw is an awesome read. once anyone reads it front to back, the entire perspective of Y`shua, covenant, salvation changes.
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
Didn't Paul keep the traditional feasts? Passover, Atonement, and Tabernacles?

If I remember correctly, at least in his writings in Romans, he tells the church to keep the feasts.....

If this isn't a clear example of how Paul kept the "old ways" going..I don't know what is...

While Christians have, mostly, stopped following the Christianity practiced by Paul, Jesus, and the apostles, this is due to the interference of the organized churches...

Why is passover no longer observed by most Christians? The imagery involved in this observance directly relates to their lives...

I'm not a Christian any more.....but the Church that I belonged to, that my grandfather leads, still observes the original feasts...

No Christmas...no Easter (which, if anyone follows..friday death, Sunday resurrection, shows that people can't count, and don't think for themselves..)

No pagan holidays....
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice, mikelong.
  
  we should celebrate the passover as it is where the 'remembrance of Me' takes place. Again, 'believers' aren't taught these things. Paul kept the feasts to please the Roman jews, hoping to sway them to 'the faith'.
  
  Paul wasn't wrong per say, he wasn't completely forthcoming, Neither was Peter -eating w/ the jewish leaders, then cursing them while sitting with believers.
  
  interesting stuff.
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
Or was Paul doing as the examples before him called for?

I am glad to be free of all of this..... Life is too short to worry about the afterlife....if there is any....
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
me too. i walked away some years back from the 'world harvest' ministries and all the brick-a-brack. Finally have peace and assurance in Him. I have no reason to doubt there is, but have serious doubts regarding the compilation of texts, teachings and tent revivals happening globally, instead of just simple living.

weird how just one simple thing we were supposed to do has become a monstrosity of a beast -for lack of a better work.
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
Not so weird unfortunately,..rather.....its sad...

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jpop13posted 14 years ago
I never said the Pope was perfect did I? He is inflalible only when talking of matters of faith and morals, from the chair of Peter,Do you know how many times this clause has been used? Twice. In the history of the Roman Catholic Church it has only been used twice, also to believe in the bible and not the Holy Church is plain stupidity, for it is thanks to the illuminated church that we have said doctrine, also the power of infalibility was handed down to Peter by Christ, "what ever is corrected on earth shall be done so in heaven". That is then passed down through the holy priesthood founded by Peter in the New Jerusalem, Rome. The term catholic can even be traced back to almost 90 years after the death of christ in about 120 AD. Also when the Pope speaks on matters of Faith and morals it is believed he is being led by the Holy spirit the same entity that Christ him self said would quide the Holy Church. Please do your history
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please find some common sense.
  You're worshipping a MAN (the Pope). And/or the religion of Catholicism.
  I double-dog dare ya to consider the fact that he's no God.
  Only God is infallible.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you mean invisible?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest, give it up already. Invisible is just a consideration light unseen -better said, optic. You know this already.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Yes, Paul was wrong.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  thanks for the not-so-informative-recreational statement, of which you have no validity -either or. Good job.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like you are any better. You simply decided to open your mouth and insert your foot, when the most decent thing you could have done was simply shut up, remain confident in what you think you know and have no need to make any inference to what I know.
  
  I simply agreed with the OP that Paul was wrong. If you do not like it too bad.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oh please. too late and too short my friend. Attaching yourself to my statements just makes you more the lesser. Good job, a-gain.
  If you want a foothold of your own, get ummm, your own. don't use another to propagate your own. Sorry, my jar of jelly beans is full and I am not sharing with you. maybe earnest, cuz he is funny.
  
  My confidence is of no concern of yours. Course, to understand that one needs confidence in their argument, of which most have nada, just the supposition of the NTK, including the self proclaiming, self Ism.
  
  You don't disagree with OP, only pretending to.
  That card was played a long time ago.
  Some folk do pay attention...
  
  anyways, how are you CG, long time, eh?!
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

Paul changed everything Jesus had taught. Jesus was a follower of Moses; Paul dispensed with the Law of Moses.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  in what way, after Saul or before, did the work of salvation change?
  
  Saul was a student of Law and a zealot against Y`shua, until the Spirit came to Saul and he was restored by Peter. It is Moses who testified about Y`shua long before Saul testified of both. So then Moses was a keeper of the law even while he was a servant to the Word, until the Word manifest to free him from bondage.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I completely agree. He did. Christ said to follow the way of James the just. His blood brother, and fellow practicing Jew. Christ loved his faith, the rage on the money changers in front of the Temple, tell us that.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  IE, can you point me to this, please?!
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Gospel according to Thomas the Contender. It is an early Christian Coptic text. Also known as one of the Gnostic Gospels.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  linkage?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not following. Linkage?
  
  That's ok.
  
  But not sure what you meant by that.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend IntimatEvolution
  
  Please check, if you require one of the the following links:
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Th … _Contender
  
  http://jdt.unl.edu/thomasbook.htm
  
  http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/bookt.html
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've seen the texts in person. I own a Gnostic Bible, and I am a member of the Gnostic Foundation of America. I just joined about 8 weeks ago. I enjoy reading their biblical studies and newsletters.
  
  However, I'm not sure if those links are for me or for 21. He was asking for linkage. Though, it did not occur to me that he was wanting links until you posted some. So thank you for doing so. I'm sure 21 greatly appreciated you doing so.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do in fact. "moo chase grace ias" jeje.
  
  Now the diviner is trying my patience, claiming your post was to them and not in response to me. lol.
  oye, what am i to do IE, what am I to do.
  
  Should i leave it and 'wash my hands' or remain patient and hope for Truth to be revealed. It is a tough call.
  
  My general nature as a chef is to tell them to bugger off and get a life. But cheaptrick, disappearinghead, djbraman, noble and many others would decapitate me if I did.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  Thanks for appreciating.
  
  Regards
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  21 has not given any comments.
  
  Thanks
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Oztinatoposted 7 years ago
One of the great things about early Christianity was that it didn't limit itself to artificial ideas about spiritual superiority. Jesus focused on the corruption of His own religion (at that time not now) and sought to remove His message from a strictly Old Testament form. Hence the term the new testament.
This has all been dealt with by historians for 2 thousand years.
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Live to Learnposted 7 years ago
Oztinato has a good point. It's sad to watch Christians argue over scripture and it is also sad to see non Christians bashing them. Paul did the best he could do with the information he had, considering his background. I think Jesus's main message, judging by his words and deeds was for each individual to find their own understanding and act in accordance with the spirit of love and harmony with life. To follow the example of sacrifice for the greater good. Some of Paul's writings reflect this.

Let's give him a break.
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1. 52
  Norine Williamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  "Christians arguing over scripture?" Have you not READ? II Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by the inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness." When one "corrects" another (which scripture says we should), why do you call it "arguing?"
  
  You "think Jesus' main message...was for each individual to find their own understanding...?" This DEFIES SCRIPTURE! Proverbs 3;5 says "...LEAN NOT TO YOUR "OWN" UNDERSTANDING..." so why do "you think?"
  
  From all of the postings here, I see that's EXACTLY what each of you have done! I don't see where you've done as II Timothy 3:16 says [paraphrasing] "Use the inspired WORD of GOD to "correct, prove, and instruct one in righteousness (WORD) for doctrine." How many posted Scripture?
  
  GO GET YOUR BIBLES the way GOD asked us to in II Timothy 3:16!
  
  Paul was a "chosen vessel" by CHRIST (Acts 9:15) and to say "He changed what Jesus was teaching (since "chosen" by JESUS) is DEMONIC! Why would JESUS "choose" someone and have them change HIS teachings? Did you not see where HE killed those LYING "TO" THE HOLY SPIRIT in Acts 5:1-11? How much more do you think HE would have not killed Paul for LYING "ON" THE HOLY SPIRIT?
  
  Satan has DECEIVED "MOST!" Let me show you with Scripture where Paul's Mission began for Christ (Galatians 1:6-9):
  
  It all began with the Prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel. GOD spoke through these Prophets and SAID "AFTER those days" (After HE dies) HE would make a NEW COVENANT wherein HE would PUT HIS LAWS IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS..." [paraphrasing Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26]!
  
  BEFORE Jesus DIED, HE "Promised" us HELP (John 14:26;16:13) who would "lead and guide us into ALL truth!"
  
  On the Day of Pentecost HE sent the "Promised" HELP (Acts 2:2)! Jesus used HIMSELF (aka Holy Spirit; John 14:26 "in my name") to "speak to the apostles whom HE had "chosen" (Acts 1:2) "AFTER" HE ASCENDED into heaven!"
  
  HE "FIRST" "commanded" us to "WAIT" (Acts 1:4) for the "Promised" HELP which HE would use to "put HIS laws in our hearts and minds" under the NEW COVENANT (Acts 1:2)! Now if we "LOVE HIM" we would "keep HIS "commandments" (John 14:15) and there wouldn't be this discussion because HE has "ONE" MIND and there wouldn't be all of these "different OPINIONS!"
  
  AFTER Jesus ascended, HE "chose" Paul as "HIS VESSEL" (Acts 9:15) to continue "IN HIS STEAD" (II Corinthians 5:20)!
  
  As Scripture stated in Acts 5:1-11 "YOU CAN'T LIE "TO" THE HOLY SPIRIT (aka JESUS) so why would you "think" JESUS "chose" someone who would "LIE "ON" THE HOLY SPIRIT?"
  
  Satan has DECEIVED MOST!
  
  I pray!
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  Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I would say that when two go back and forth, back and forth, attempting to 'correct' each other it is arguing.
  
  I think, if you look at the words, actions and example of Christ you will agree with me. But you don't have to agree with me. I think that the infinite variety in the universe is a reflection of the infinite variety at every level of existence. Why would there not be infinite variety in our understanding? You can only come to conclusions in line with what you have experienced in life. My experiences have not been yours so I cannot judge the conclusions you have arrived at.
  
  As to the rest of your post to me I would consider that to be an attempt to argue. I'm not interested.
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  Norine Williamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  You can "defy" Scripture if you like! GOD SAID "correct" (II Timothy 3:16)! I ask "Do you "correct" your children when they "err?" Does that not display LOVE for your children? Why then do you think one should allow another to "suffer sin upon his brother" (Leviticus 19:17)? Get your Bible! READ!
  
  If "I look at the words, actions and example of Christ" I see in HIS WORD "HE CORRECTED" the Scribes and Pharisees by constantly going to the Synagogues (Matthew 23)! Don't think HE went there to agree with them, but to "fulfill the law!"
  
  "Infinite variety?" Is GOD of "infinite variety" when Scripture says "HE HAS ONE MIND?" I Corinthians 1:10 says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye ALL speak the SAME THING, and that there BE NO DIVISION among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the SAME MIND and in the SAME JUDGMENT!" Did you hear the word "JUDGMENT?" I Peter 4:17 says "JUDGMENT "must" begin at the house of GOD..."
  
  We "JUDGE "righteous judgment" (John 7:24) not what we feel but with the WORD of GOD which is the ONLY RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT!
  
  No one "comes to conclusions in line with what we have experienced in life," but WHAT IS WRITTEN!
  
  "An attempt to "argue?" Do you see it as "arguing" with your children when "correcting?" Do you not "judge" their actions based on HIS WORD? Why do you "think" believers should not "correct" each other (WITH WORD) if we see one error? Do we not have enough LOVE for each other to do that? How can you "LOVE GOD ("whom you have not see") but don't show enough LOVE for your brother whom you have seen" (I John 4:20)?
  
  Did Paul not show LOVE for Peter by "correcting" re: circumcision in Galatians 2? Get your Bible! READ IT! Am I lying?
  
  Leviticus 19:17 says "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart (When you don't "correct" it's a sign of hate for you "correct" your children which shows LOVE; don't you?): thou shalt in any wise REBUKE thy neighbor and NOT SUFFER SIN UPON HIM!" Didn't Paul (Galatians 2:11 "...I withstood him to the face...")!
  
  I love "souls" too much to see them "suffer sin upon themselves!"
  
  Girl, I am a 66 year old woman who has more days BEHIND than AHEAD, why would I want to have to "Stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (II Corinthians 5:10) and explain where I've LIED to "souls" (Jeremiah 23:1)?
  
  I pray!
  reply report

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