An Australian woman called the cops in Minneapolis after hearing suspicious noises outside, approached the car that responded and was shot dead by the cop in the passenger seat.
They had not turned on their body cameras.
R.I.P.
http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed … 4782213/#6
The real menace is the flood of guns in this country thanks to the radical NRA. Police are acting out of fear.
I'd like to see a list of the NRA members who have made cops fearful. I don't know whether you realize this, or not, but most criminals have not obtained their guns through legal means. Most probably fall under the part of the law which doesn't allow felons to own firearms.
According to U.S Justice Department figures, 94,000 weapons were recovered from Mexican drug cartels in the five years between 2006 and 2011, of which 64,000 came from the United States.
The guns were bought legally, sold to smugglers and converted from single fire to assault rifle specification.
The NRA, the US arms industry which supports it, and the politicians who take their money bear a heavy responsibility.
I don't know the particulars but I would think if someone bought a fire arm, legally, then sold it to someone for illegal purposes their right to purchase fire arms would be revoked.
You mean where the US Government sold arms in order to track them and then LOST the trail and had nothing to show for such a stupid move? I don't think the NRA had anything to do with that. That was a sting gone horribly wrong and gave cartels guns.
Nowhere did I say NRA members are making cops fearful. I said cops are fearful because of the flood of guns in this country, which is a direct result of the NRA's mindless opposition to all gun laws.
Regarding felons, they easily get their guns from unlicensed sellers. A background check should be required on all gun sales. An online lookup would be an easy step.
I don't think I would place too much blame on the NRA, possibly the degradation of our morals and ethics in general. Gun laws will always have loopholes, there will always be a black market, people skilled can make their own, and the list can go on.
Laws keep good people honest, and that's about it. A lot of times politicians chasing strict gun control are so ignorant about what they are talking about, that it is scary that they are preaching propaganda about such things.
So your highly professional cops could never enact gun control laws? I have a feeling they would try pretty hard given that they are one of the main groups of victims of gun crime.
A lot of cops favor gun control laws.
Consider the average person they interact with: druggies, killers, gangs, etc. Instead of building their opinion from the majority of people, it is built on the criminal element; the very people who will keep their guns after law abiding citizens are forced to give them up. In other words, cops are as susceptible to irrational arguments as you are.
I reckon American right-wingers just like wallowing in violence and despair. They cannot imagine anything better than the blood-soaked culture they have created with their racism, devil take the hindmost social values, and dedication to a mind crushing stasis, without the possibility of change.
You are sentenced to live in the environment that you have created.
Life without parole.
You may be right - God knows that we spend far too much time, energy and money on the futile confiscation of guns when never even trying to address the causes of that violence. Appearance ("See? I'm doing something") before function ("You must change your culture to slow violence"), always. Perhaps one day when we can learn to set aside politics we'll make an honest effort.
Don't be looking across the pond for a lead on that one.
LOL Not hardly. They're much further down the road of an omniscient government than even we are.
We will all find out, when the huge revolutions really gets crazy
I would settle for injecting a little hope into the hearts of the self-damned. And draining off a little poison.
Living in North America is like having a front row seat to the Freak show. I rather wait and watch from far away. Then when everybody gets over the real horrible bits. I'll be ready to come back to teach love lesson of an oz. of medicine is better than a pound of cure.
It's all about less suffering then more happiness & joy
Then perhaps "chickens" should not be hired as police. Do city and state police agencies not give a rigorous psychological test to applicants? If they don't, then they should. We need to be able to trust our police and feel safer when they are around, not have to run from them, too. This woman was white, but race shouldn't be an issue.
It shouldn't be an issue but the issue here in Minneapolis is complicated by the fact that the officer in question is a Somali (black but not African American) That's why there is not much information out here as of this time. There is also some talk about quotas on the police force. I have heard that this man did not have the exact training that is required but was expedited to add PC totals of Somali immigrants to the force. If you don't live in this city you will not get the big picture. Minneapolis has the largest population of Somali immigrants in the US.
My problem is that there are a few of those on the Right that consider body cams as a unnecessary accouterment. It is obvious regardless how this thing turns out that the cams are necessary and should be mandatory. There is going to be hell to pay as to what happened to the woman and why the cameras were not operating. A couple of pink slips are in order at the minimum, just for not having your cameras running.
Maybe now that a white female, a foreigner, is involved these issues regarding police behavior will be taken seriously as opposed to when merely 'black thugs' are involved???
This shooting and guns are two different topics to me. This shooting needs to be investigated further, would prefer a 3rd party. Body cams need to be on anytime on duty, anything could happen at any time and when your job is to be in places of danger then they should be recording at all times. This whole issue is very concerning.
I totally agree, it’s very alarming:-
• The police in the USA have so far shot dead 523 in 2017.
• In 2016 it was 963 killings, and
• In 2015 it was 991.
You make it sound as if the officer did it on purpose. I'm surprised innocent until proven guilty is only an American concept.
She's dead and a cop killed her.
The defence will something like this be:
She had something in her hand
She made a sudden movement
She spoke loudly
She surprised us.
Good enough for the US public, normally.
I think we probably see eye to eye more closely than we are willing to admit. It does appear that cops are given a 'get out of jail free' card oftentimes. But, I don't think the American public simply turns a blind eye. I think, when juries acquit, most understand that the job is difficult, dangerous, and requires split second decisions that can save their lives; and take them. We may not feel they should have been acquitted but we do see where some juries could be convinced to do so. Human error can be fatal when lethal weapons are involved.
I don't know the circumstances of this incident. We never will, since no cameras were in place. That is why I am a firm advocate of body cameras on all cops. To give us better information as to what is going on. Personally, I have a firm distaste for cops. 'Little minds with a little power' is how I see most I run into.
With all of that said I do think every individual deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt while waiting for evidence to come to light.
LTL, from what I've seen, America now has the attitude "guilty until proven innocent." I agree with you on body cameras. Some people feel that they are a violation of one's privacy, but in today's atmosphere, it seems like they are needed very badly. Many years ago, my father-in-law was mayor of a small town in West Texas, and my mother-in-law made the statement about the town's police, "if he weren't a policeman, he'd be a thug." Sadly, it seems today that thugs can be police.
Your opinion as to why they shot her? Because cops are kill crazy, always looking for an excuse to pull the trigger and kill a human being?
Most cops are armed. It is the nature of the population that they police that determines how trigger happy they are.
Even when bad cultures develop within police forces, you can usually trace it back to wider trends.
Did this then happen in a gang ridden neighborhood? Was the woman carrying gang markers? Was she armed, popping up out of virtual nowhere to surprise the cops?
While I definitely agree with what you said, I'm just as definitely convinced there is far more to this story that we've heard to date. Lots more.
When people's lives are insecure there will always be a lot of anxiety in the air. Many US policies promote insecurity.
Add the ready availability of guns, and you are mixing full blown fear with the anxiety.
Japan has more or less eliminated guns from civilian life in the last few years. The yakuza is losing membership fast because it is hard to terrorise ordinary folk without guns (ordinary folk fight back).
The police are struggling to find a new role as crime drops, too.
https://www.economist.com/news/asia/217 … olice-hunt
You seem to be equating large numbers of gun owners with large amounts of crime, particularly murder. Unfortunately for the hypothesis, it isn't borne out in real life; there is zero correlation between the number of guns in a society and its homicide rate. I can't truly speak for robberies except to note that in areas/towns with high numbers of guns the robbery rate tends to drop: thieves aren't quite so willing to break in when there is a high likelihood that there is a gun in the house.
I WILL agree, however, that guns breed fear, however irrational it may be. Our politicians and media have made sure of that, as has those already afraid and social media. Very few people actually take the time to LOOK at what guns mean to a society, instead accepting the fear mongering at face value.
Of course I am equating the large number of gun owners with the large amount of crime. When guns are widely available every bad guy wants one and can get one very quickly.
Many crimes are impossible without guns. Try holding up a bank or store without one. Try murdering someone without one, it gets a lot, lot harder.
Any scrawny youth can be a gangster with a gun. Without a gun he is just a punk you hit over the head with the first thing that comes to hand (I ain't no pacifist, lol).
I live in a country with high levels of gun ownership and people live in fear of teenagers. You might think that is pathetic. I certainly do. But it is wise to avoid reprimanding troublesome kids because there is a significant chance they will go get a gun and shoot you.
1500 gun murders by under 18 year olds last year.
Guns are poisonous. They corrode all the normal social mechanisms of maintaining a decent society.
Please...show a statistical connection between the number of guns and the homicide rate. Use any first world countries you wish, but show that more guns means an increasing homicide rate!
Or quite making a false claim you cannot support. Either one.
Wilderness, Will did provided a statistical connection between gun ownership and homicide rates in the chart above. If you take a close look at it the two countries where guns are legal e.g. Russia and America, those are the two counties with the highest level of ‘Intentional homicides’ per 100,000 people.
The other countries on the list (all who have strict gun laws) have much lower levels of ‘Intentional homicides’. Japan has the strictest gun laws in the world and the lowest levels of homicides.
If you look at the brown bar (2014 figures) in the above chart you will see that ‘intentional homicides’ in the USA is far in excess of double of any other country listed, where gun ownership is strictly limited.
You can lead a horse to water...
I remember Wilderness trotting out the old 'the US private health system leads the world in medical research' trope. That is wrong on so many fronts.
US universities (with a small contribution from private hospitals) put out more highly cited medical research papers than any other country, but, per head of the population, countries like Holland and the UK (with their national health systems) contribute far more.
I put up a graph to illustrate this. Wilderness reckoned it proved his point...
I just let it go. Thrusting a horse's head underwater is unethical.
I think you said it yourself, Will: "US universities (with a small contribution from private hospitals) put out more highly cited medical research papers than any other country,"
Now, tell us all again how Holland contribute "far more"? While providing fewer "highly cited papers"? And no, you don't get to spin more papers per citizen into more papers.
I'm sorry, but while the graph is of homicides (what was asked for) there is nothing about gun ownership. And while the writer may have cherry picked countries to prove a point, the lowest homicide rate does not go to Japan.
Austria, Denmark, Egypt and Germany all have lower homicide rates than Japan. And ALL of them have at least 50 times the gun ownership rate. (Japan at .6, Germany at 30.3, Switzerland at 45.7, etc.)
Kind of puts the lie to the idea that not having guns means no murders, too, doesn't it?
(Data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime and includes dozens of countries, not just a handful. It is reproduced on a hub on my carousel should you choose to see it even though it doesn't agree with your prejudice.)
(Granted, my data is from 2007, Will's is from 2014 and it may have made a difference in Germany. But the point is obvious; the number of guns has no correlation and certainly no causal effect on the homicide rate. )
Wilderness, with regards to the countries you refer to (Austria, Denmark, Egypt and Germany) as well as Japan and the UK, there are colorations that indicate a relationship with gun ownership and intentional homicides.
The latest available figures for Homicides per 100,000 for these countries, in ascending order are:-
• Japan = 0.31
• Austria = 0.51
• Germany = 0.85
• UK = 0.92
• Denmark = 0.99
• Egypt = 3.23
• USA = 4.88
You will note that of these countries, Japan does have the lowest homicide rate. Egypt’s homicide rate is high in comparison to all these countries (except the USA) even though they have one of the lowest gun ownership ratios because Egypt is gripped with civil unrest, following the Arab uprising in 2011. Even then, their homicide rate of 3.23 is still significantly lower than the USA homicide rate of 4.88.
In fact homicide rates in all the other countries you mentioned are between about 5th (Denmark) and 15th (Japan) of that of the USA.
The Gun ownership as a percentage of population in these countries is:
• Japan 0.6%
• Egypt 3.5%
• UK 6.6%
• Denmark 12%
• Germany 30.3%
• Austria 30.4%
• USA 112.6%
Germany and Austria may have a high gun ownership compared to the other countries listed (except the USA), but unlike the USA they have very strict gun and licencing laws that significantly control the use and type of weapons.
Obviously you can’t draw a straight line graph between the level of gun ownership and homicide, and therefore can not make a direct comparison between different countries (as you seem to want for proof that more guns mean more deaths) because you do need to take other factors into account e.g. the civil unrest in Egypt making homicide more likely, how strictly controlled gun ownership and licensing is, and how high or low violent crime tends to be in a particular society etc.
From these countries mentioned above by you, Japan has the lowest gun ownership and the lowest level of homicides, the USA has the highest gun ownership and the highest level of homicide; with all the other countries falling somewhere between.
But it isn’t a deniable fact that not only is gun ownership and licencing laws far more slack in the USA than most countries, and that gun ownership in the USA at 112.6% of the population is more than double of any other country in the world, but also the homicide rates at 4.88 in the USA is far higher than most civilised countries around the world.
Surly that must tell you that there is some link between the level of gun ownership and the level of homicides e.g. it’s far easier to kill people using guns than by any other means.
Let's see here. Even with this tiny sampling of countries, we see Germany has fewer homicides than Denmark, but more guns. Egypt has far more homicides than the UK, but fewer guns. Austria has fewer homicides than Germany, the UK, Denmark or Egypt, but more guns than any of them.
Seems that the more guns the lower the homicide rate, right? All except the two extreme ends of the chart fit neatly into that connection: more guns=fewer homicides.
No, it doesn't work that way: as you point out no equation can be made showing a relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates. Which means that there is no correlation between the two, and THAT means there is no causal effect between them.
Saying guns kill easily, picking one or two countries out of the 200 in the world to make your point with; such things provide zero information and do not change the fact that there...is...no...correlation...between...gun...ownership...and...homicide...rates.
And no, that one country (the US) has high gun ownership and high homicide rates does NOT tell us that there IS a correlation - one has only to look at the examples given here to see the lie in that. We can pretend there is, we can say "it's obvious" there is, and we can say that if we would only take away the guns homicides would certainly fall. But all are false; they do not lead to the conclusion desired, and real life experience all over the world proves that.
Excluding Egypt, the difference in homicide rates between these countries (not at the two extremes) which we’ve referenced e.g. Austria, Germany, UK and Denmark is only 0.48 per 100,000; these countries (except for the UK) being the ones which you initially cited in your discussion above.
The homicide rates are greater than 5 times higher in the USA than any of these countries e.g. Austria, Germany, UK and Denmark.
Egypt is subject to social unrest following the spate of recent uprisings across the region, so naturally (as with any social unrest on that scale) homicides will be high regardless to how many or how few guns are in circulation in that country.
Yes the homicide rates and level of gun ownership is different from country to country so you can’t draw a straight line graph to compare gun ownership with homicides worldwide; but what you can do is compare the tightening of gun controls in each individual country and the change in level of homicides in that country over time.
Countries introduce strict gun controls in response to steeply rising homicide rates, with guns always being the prime means to kill. Just looking at Canada, Australia and Japan as examples:-
In Canada homicides steeply rose from about 1.5 per 100,000 in the early 1960s to almost 3 per 100,000 by the late 1970s. Canada introduced the first of a series of gun control laws in 1979, and since that date homicides have steadily declined until the present day figure of less than 1.5 per 100,000.
In Australia, homicides rose sharply in five years during the early 1990s, and following the Port Arthur massacre tight gun laws were introduced in 1996; within 7 years homicides started to decline and have declined ever since.
Japan introduced very strict gun laws in 1958, after homicides had sharply increased and peaked at 3.5 per 100,000. Since the introduction of strict gun laws in Japan homicides have sharply dropped to reach its current level of just 0.31 per 100,000.
So when you start to look at it country by country there are strong correlations between tightening gun laws and reducing homicides.
Although in America’s case, guns are so epidemic in society, with there being more guns in America than people, that introducing gun control laws now isn’t going to have any immediate positive impact; especially with all the illegal guns in circulation, the ease of smuggling, and the unwillingness of the criminal world to give up guns.
America has got itself into such a big mess that it could take generations to sort out; but doing nothing to tackle the issues will only perpetuate the problem; which could yet get a lot worse, especially with homicides and gun related deaths on the rise again e.g. the recent 10.8% increase in homicides in the USA, up to three quarters of which is attributed to the use of guns.
Guns are poisonous. They corrode all the normal social mechanisms of maintaining a decent society.
What?
I'm a little shaky (or a lot shaky) at this point in accepting a coroners report that not only was the cause of death a bullet, but that that bullet was fired illegally. Hard to understand how a coroner, without knowing what happened or why it happened considers himself knowledgeable enough to declare it a homicide.
Coroner = elitist expert = not to be trusted.
Elect Trump again, lol.
On a previous issue, this: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fire … and-death/
Quote
'Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide'
But that was before Japan more or less eliminated gun ownership in the civilian population. Their data is very impressive. No guns = much less crime of all kinds. Especially organised crime that relies on intimidation, and robbery that relies on guns.
One thing you can be sure of, trigger happy cops destroy community faith in police. Which makes catching criminals far harder.
And of course, if cops are scared for their lives in any area (because guns are prevalent) they will be a lot less effective for the obvious reason... the focus is on surviving the shift.
No, not asking for a quote. Asking for reliable statistics that show the idea to be true. Got any?
Yeah - the Aussies took people's guns, too. And the murder rate went unchanged. Although mass murders went up, mostly from arson. Tell you what - for every country you find that has high gun ownership and high homicide rate, or the opposite, I'll give you two that reverse it.
The cops will be less effective...or more effective as gun toting thugs don't survive to kill again?
You could read the paper rather than asking me to parse it for you, but the main point is, wouldn't you like to get the point where harmless individuals like female meditation teachers, can approach the police without fear of being killed?
My best guess for the death is that the woman did not realise how scared (and hence how dangerous) Minneapolis cops are, approached the cop car in the way she would approach a cop car in Australia (in a straight line, in a normal upright position, hands not held above her head and asked them if they had seen anything, in an Australian accent) and that was enough to seal her fate.
Fear kills multitudes,
"wouldn't you like to get the point where harmless individuals like female meditation teachers, can approach the police without fear of being killed?"
Sure, wouldn't you? The only problem is that you insist it will be completed by taking away all means of self defense from people (guns) but are unable to provide a single bit of evidence that that is true.
How about we work on why people are violent, and eliminate that instead? Get rid of the violence and I guarantee we'll get rid of the killings. Get rid of the tool violent people like and they'll use a different one. (Did you know there are more murders in the US from hands and feet than all long guns combined? Including those dreadful "assault weapons"?)
I’m sorry Wilderness, but generally in the rest of the world if someone phone the police they don’t expect to then be killed by them; so what makes America so different?
Not a thing. Of course one example out of millions doesn't make much impression, does it? As in deciding that Americans expect to be killed when calling cops because of a single unfortunate incident.
Well, wilderness, what makes America different from most of the rest of the world is the high level of violence and murders in America. It’s not one example out of millions; about 15,000 plus Americans are killed each year from the use of firearms, of which about 1,000 are Americans killed by the police.
Of all those deaths, a percentage are innocent lives (which get reported in the newspapers frequently enough), and an alarming number of Americans are unnecessarily murdered by the police (which also gets reported in the British newspapers frequently). Unfortunately, unlike any other country in the world (except for perhaps some regimes) the American police can and do get away with murder; usually of either black or mentally ill Americans.
This graphic (and shocking) video clearly shows Americans being murdered by the police (if you have the stomach to watch it that is):-
Death by Officer: An American Epidemic of Police Shootings and Brutality
https://youtu.be/s2ghdM66U4Y
"the American police can and do get away with murder"
"Murder
The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse."
(Free Dictionary.com)
Now. Out of the millions (billions?) of interactions between American police and the public each year, how many result in the unlawful killing of a human being by police? Two? Three? It seems that you have fallen for the propaganda of the BLM movement, or others, that would have us believe police are wantonly killing people every hour of the day and for no more reason than that they want to kill someone.
You must be kidding us. About 2 or 3 from nearly a 1000. When I work among cops I feel like Serpico. These are train killers and many are psychopaths and these are nicer cops than the American cops.
We have 60-65% murders unsolved or not clear. Imagine how easy to have a murder by a cop covered up. When a cop shoots a person often enough they will empty out their gun to make sure evidence won"t be used against them. Think of all these marijanna raids where they come like the US military and shoot the dog.
The idea of police is they are to lay down their lies for their citizens, not the other way round.
Well actually Wilderness, I’m not American, it’s not my problem to solve; so I haven’t bothered to read any BLM literature (I’ve got better ways to spend my time)
But I don’t have to read such articles, the video clips showing the police committing murder speak for themselves. Perhaps if you watched the video above (which contains a collection of such clips) you’ll see for yourself that the American police do all too often murder American citizens.
If there were just one or two isolated incidences where occasionally a trigger happy policeman fired one or two bullets at a suspect, because the suspect was using a knife to attack the police, then it might be argued that the police shot in self-defence.
However when suspects are shot in the back (from some distance) by anything up to 30 bullets for just holding a knife (or suspected of holding a knife), as a number of the video clips show in the above video link, then it can’t be anything other than murder.
And because there are now so many such video clips published showing such murderous actions by American police (which I’m sure is just the tip of the iceberg) it’s blatantly obvious that such actions by the police isn’t isolated.
If the British police acted like the America police then in the UK they would be found guilty of murder and be facing life sentences.
In contrast to the above video, if you want to see how it’s done in Britain I suggest you first watch the above video then watch this video as a comparison:-
UK Police Arrest Knife Wielding Man without Firing a Shot https://youtu.be/7fvbcBZQ_9c
"I haven’t bothered to read any BLM literature"
LOL Neither do I. Although their stated goals was interesting, particularly that they don't want to be subject to American laws; they will make their own for black people. Which says something about just how sincere or honest they are.
"the video clips showing the police committing murder speak for themselves"
Uhh...no they don't. Not unless you are getting them from a court that has given a verdict of murder. Seeing someone die does NOT mean that murder was committed - surely you know and acknowledge that!
"when suspects are shot in the back (from some distance) by anything up to 30 bullets for just holding a knife (or suspected of holding a knife), as a number of the video clips show in the above video link"
Really? Can you give links to even two instances where cops fired 30 bullets into the back of someone? Or even one instance? I don't think so, but perhaps you can prove me wrong.
You have, as I said, fallen for sensationalist "news". "News" where an automatic judgement, without court, judge or jury, is levied against any cop that shoots anyone, especially if they have dark skin. I will note in passing that your video showing 30 shots to the back for holding a knife is just as bad. Absolutely threatening and running to attack the cops with a knife, not "holding it". No sign of being shot in the back. No sign of being shot 30 times (he survived being shot thirty times in the back?!?!). Just like the "news" you have taken a reasonable and necessary action by cops and expanded it to something that never even comes close to matching your description.
Wilderness, Police get away with murder in America because the American legal establishment is corrupted.
You don’t need a court to see its murder, you can see with your own eyes by just watching the video clips that in each case shown it’s blatantly obviously murder. Using a corrupt legal system that protects the police’s actions and prevents justice from being done is a poor excuse.
If the same incidences took place in the UK every single police officer would face a murder charge, and almost certainly life in prison.
If you are going to turn a blind eye to the overwhelming evidence then this video, which shows how murderous American police compare to police in Europe, isn’t going to cut any ice with you either; but it does spell out the issues and facts quite succinctly.
USA Police Vs. Good Police: A Comparison https://youtu.be/O0f_nFKVoyQ
And no…… the actions shown in the videos are not (by any stretch of the imagination) reasonable or necessary actions taken by the police. The above video makes it perfectly clear that in Europe the police handle similar situations quite differently, and rarely does anyone in Europe get killed by the police.
Sorry, but when some of the first words from that yahoo are "In the US we like to shoot people, we like to shoot them dead" it isn't worth listening to. Yes, there are bad cops and yes there are some that may like to kill. But the enormous majority feels the same as you and I do.
A few years ago a cop killed a man in my city. A PCP addict charged the cop with an WWI rifle (that the father claimed was empty) - the cop let him get within 10 feet before shooting. One stinking step from being skewered with the bayonet on that old rifle relic. A quarter second from dying himself. And that cop, just like the ones you denigrate as killing without reason, was hung out to dry by the public using the same lack of understanding or reason that you do.
My only complaint was that he waited far too long. He should never, ever have put himself in the jeopardy like that. His kids need him.
You're not a cop and you don't face the dangers they do every day. You also don't have to live with the knowledge that you took a human life either to protect yourself or someone else. And you have no right, no right at all, to claim cops indiscriminately shoot people whether in the US or the UK based on some low quality video that may or may not have been doctored. Thank you, but I'll take the word of a jury over yours every time as to whether a shooting was justified, and those juries - composed of people just like you and I - convict precious few cops of murder.
Thanks wilderness for your ‘open’ and ‘frank’ comments; I can see from the tone of your sentiments that you compassionately believe in what you say in your last comments above.
I fully agree that articles with opening statements like “In the US we like to shoot people….” is a clear sign that the article is likely to be propaganda rather than a serious article on the subject and therefore most likely not a reliable source for factually correct information. I do avoid such websites links and look for web sources that can be trusted.
I also agree that there are bad policemen and police women in every police force around the world; and in some countries (such as America) some of the police may well like to kill. Although, in reference to this topic it can’t be said that the “enormous majority (of police) feels the same as you and I” in that the social and cultural attitudes towards guns in Europe and America is so different e.g. both the British police and the British Public find the way that American police so freely kill appalling.
A case in point being that in the UK (where we don’t have guns) knives are the weapon of choice. In the UK in 2015 there were 32,448 knife crimes, yet there were only 697 homicides in total in the UK in that year (significantly lower rate per rata than the USA). In the UK where 95.4% of the British police don’t carry guns, only 1 person per year on average is killed by the police and in the last 10 years only 11 police have been killed.
Reference to your example of a PCP addict charging towards an American policeman while holding a WWI rifle with a bayonet being shot dead at 10 feet away. In the UK, the policeman would almost uncertainly be unarmed, but they would nevertheless tackle the PCP addict and disarm him without anyone being killed e.g. that’s the way the British police are trained.
With reference to your final point, all the videos links I’ve posted in this forum have either come from the police body cams, the police car videos or from amateur videos taken live at the scene e.g. on mobile phones (cell phone in American); there is no question of them being tampered with in anyway because they have been used as evidence in investigations, but unfortunately, it’s the American culture that American police are trained and sanctioned to kill in the manner shown in the videos. And their actions are supported by judges who side with the police authorities in such investigations and therefore these cases almost never get as far as being tried in court.
In my mind, and the minds of Europeans (because of our cultural differences) we view such killings as legalised murder. In contrast, in the UK, on the rare occasions when a British police officer kills a suspect, the incident is always investigated by the ‘Independent Police Complaints Commission’ (IPCC). The IPCC is an independent government body that is totally independent from the police and government. In the UK, the police have to account for every bullet fired and on the rare occasion when the British police does kill someone the incident is always investigated by the IPCC and legal action taken if justified e.g. in the 2015 incident investigated by the IPCC, where a firearms policeman killed a suspect, the police office was suspended from duty, subsequently arrested and faced prosecution for murder or manslaughter, as outlined in the link below:-
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-12-17/wood … ine-baker/
Yes, you are quite correct. But there is much more than that. Everyday lying:
Body camera video produced Wednesday appears to show a Baltimore police officer plant drugs
Annie Dookhan is a former chemist of a Massachusetts crime lab who admitted to falsifying evidence, affecting up to 34,000 cases.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions … 0600cbdd67
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/5 … t-to-coast
Will, unfortunately you are right. But if a person is running toward a cop and calling for help, he or she should be able to rely on the officer for help, not be gunned down because she is carrying a cell phone or a wallet in her hand. Does he/she have to drop a possession and drop to the ground with hands raised to get help? What are cities hiring for police officers these days, chicken shits or thugs?
"Does he/she have to drop a possession and drop to the ground with hands raised to get help?"
Depending on circumstances, could be. A very good way to get killed it to convince an already nervous cop that you are a threat.
We hire men and women. Men and women with families. With kids, with siblings. Men and women that wish to see tomorrow, to see their kids grow up. We don't hire robots, we don't hire supermen that can't be hurt or killed. We don't hire people that never feel fear, and we don't hire either computers or crystal balls that can instantly evaluate all situations and predict with certainty what's going to happen in the next 2 seconds. We might wish we did, we might expect we do and we might even think we do. But we don't. We hire people. People like you and like me.
No, not like me. If I knew someone called for help and was running toward me crying for help, I certainly would not shoot them. That's crazy.
Who are you going to shoot with a cell phone? It is logical that a person might be still carrying the phone they used to call for help. These cops are nuts. Recently the Memphis Police Department came to Little Rock (where I live) on a recruiting trip because they can't get enough qualified applicants from their area. At least that's what the news story said. It is unfortunate that sane people don't want to be police officers anymore. Backing up trigger happy cops does not help. This isn't the wild west where they shoot first and ask questions later.
Besides, an update on the story said that the woman was standing beside the patrol car talking to the officer-driver when the officer-passenger shot her. Apparently the shooter didn't give time to investigate her story, and she didn't even own a gun. How can you make excuses for that? That isn't human nature!
Really? You get a report of an attack in an alley. You arrive and someone darts out that alley pointing a gun at you while screaming unintelligibly and you won't take steps to protect yourself?
No, you don't get to claim that someone running towards you in the dark with an unknown object in hand is obviously not carrying a gun. Not in the 1/2 second you have to make the call. Nor do you get to claim that you know she doesn't own a gun. It's amazing how we just assume that knowledge hours, days or weeks after an incident was all known to the cop at the time and should have been taken into account, isn't it?
Of course, while you may believe the lady was quietly standing along the police car conversing with the other cop, I don't. But neither do I "make excuses" - I'll leave that until the full facts are known, and will continue to suggest that everyone else do the same.
Oh, for crying out loud. She was standing by the car talking to the driver when the passenger cop shot her. You are taking ridiculous steps to try to justify that. It's obvious you are going to justify cop shootings everywhere. Will you do that if it happens to your wife, daughter or girlfriend?
"She was standing by the car talking to the driver when the passenger cop shot her."
So you indicated, or at least indicated that's what you heard/read somewhere. It's not what I heard, and I trust you can understand that the "ridiculous steps" are being made by making claims that cannot be supported. All I've done is present an alternative possibility - a possibility that cannot be refuted at this time because no one knows what went down. And that's the point; everything we hear is only a possibility.
Yes, I trust that if my loved one is shot by cops I will wait until I find out what happened before making statements I can't support or assigning blame. Some of us do that - some of us assume that the cop is a kill crazy madman.
A person is from 8 to 50 times more likely to be killed by police than by a terrorist. Everywhere you go in the news, or checked at boarders, big buildings and planes your checked like a terrorist suspect. Terrorist are lurking everywhere every single day. For me stay away from policing for profit, if you can.
"A person is from 8 to 50 times more likely to be killed by police than by a terrorist."
Really!! Even though you give a range of a factor of 8 and the vast majority are justified I still don't believe it. Please, using figures since 2000 AD when terrorism became common, show calculations proving this. You didn't specify, so calculations either worldwide or just the US are acceptable. Do limit it to first world countries, though; I'm not real interested in what cops do in Puerto Rico or Mexico as a comparison to terrorism.
Or is just another claim without basis?
Over the past 10 years (2007-2016), domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the United States. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing extremists.
We did not even hear about Muslims attacking America until Bush 9/11 came along. You do the math of US cop murderer of 800 kills into the 900s kills each year.
OK, you want to cherry pick, carefully leaving out the primary terrorist attack. Let's cherry pick 2001, where (your figure) cops killed 800 people (that were all deserving of instant death) while terrorism (not local whackos) killed 3000.
8X3000 = 24,000. Cops killed zero people in unnecessary shootings. You lose.
(You might want to look up the definition of "murder" before you accuse cops of "murdering" 800 people per year. It isn't true, just as almost nothing you've said is actually true - terrorists murder, cops very seldom do.) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
Seems cops are not trigger happy, it is the population which is unusually in need of being shot.
Maybe, I couldn't say. Except for me; I don't need shot.
But the post mine was replying to deserved nothing but sarcasm...and that's what it got. I asked for an analysis of terrorist deaths vs cop shootings this century and got a cherry picked time frame missing the primary and most deadly attack followed by an estimate on cop murders coupled with something called "extremists" and killings from them.
I do law enforcement part-time. I always remind police officers when we go out in riots and union disputes, no killing.
Other wise when you have as many guns than as there are American people. Most you can except attempted murder or part at fault, or a degree of murder. I won't allow any killing on my watch. On rare causes I see self defense can not be helped. I can not imagine running out of ideas to kill anyone even with my hand & feet. Almost knocked a monkey out.
"I won't allow any killing on my watch."
"On rare causes I see self defense can not be helped."
You can't see the conflict in these two statements? There is no killing. There is killing.
C'mon, Castle; quit trying so hard to spin reality into something it isn't. You have information to give, give it but without the spin trying to make it the same as you unsupported opinion.
I have supervised and investigate in some operations. Worst case of self defence were some of the police or guards had injured persons. No kills and highly likely nobody will get killed on both sides ever on my watch.
I think Canadian cops are more honest than American cops. Still cops, courts system, lawyers and politician are about the most dishonest groups of people I have ever worked with. They lock up the good people too often and let the worst people run things.
You do law-enforcement for riots and union disputes???? and you almost knocked out a monkey? My, you lead an interesting life.
Got mugged by monkeys in Napel. Hardest battle ever.
Do you realise that poor Katherine probably fainted when she tried to imagine that scenario?
I knew a guy once who was traumatized by being attacked by a herd of chihuahuas as a child. I feel your pain.
… Attacking Chihuahuas! Mugging monkeys! Arrogant pushy Americans!
I can't go on reading this thread!
Are you as happy as I am that, unlike Canada, the US does not hire part time cops to enforce the law and especially that we don't use such people as leaders? That we prefer to stick to highly trained professionals for the task of police?
In the US when an American gets up set.
That's it!!! I am going to get my gun.
When a Canada gets up set
That's it!!! I am going to write a letter.
If your a gun person and want win a gun death debate. Use a rifle stats for firearm for low rate compare to hands or feet or a blunt object. Maybe a blunt object has some merit since cave times.
If your a un-gun kind of person. Use full firearm stats that kill more than wars, Aids and illegal overdose drugs combined.
More people are locked up over a plant. Than there are police employed each year. What a synthetic world.
Surprisingly, I have to agree with a basic difference between Canadians and Americans, although you might be surprised if you look up the murder rates of each using knives. Canada far surpasses the US there.
There is a cultural difference between the two, and a difference in gun ownership. Give that there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates, which one do you think is causal for that low homicide rate in Canada? Hint: it isn't the gun rate in the US.
"If your a un-gun kind of person. Use full firearm stats that kill more than wars, Aids and illegal overdose drugs combined. "
Well put. If you're afraid of guns, don't understand them or the people that like them, or just hate guns, get together some firearm stats. Cherry pick which ones you want to use, twist them into what you want to prove (a good method here is to use gun homicides while pretending that number represents all homicides - see it done all the time), and claim that guns are responsible for people killing people. It will likely work with anyone else that also fears or hates guns even if more knowledgeable people laugh at you.
Don’t forget suicides
The United States has far more guns: about 310 million, almost one gun a person firearms (legal and illegal) in the hands of civilian owners in Canada is about 10 million, about 31 guns per 100 people. The United States has far more guns: about 310 million, almost one gun a person. Total suicide and firearm suicide rates per 100,000 population. Canada’s total suicide rate of 12.9, and the United States have higher rates than Canada,
I would agree that suicide via gun is probably (probably!) more effective than other means, and that the suicide rate would (probably!) go down if guns were not available.
Now I have to ask if it is reasonable to remove not only freedom from millions but also their constitutional rights...because someone else might kill themselves with a gun. IMO the answer must be "No". Before you contradict, ask yourself if it is reasonable to take something (cocaine, meth, heroin, LSD, peyote, and yes, marijuana,) from people because someone else may kill themselves with it, or even just ruin their lives.
In my youth on drugs, I do not like to admit I had a very good time. Did not kill or harm anyone nor did any of my friends. When we went to rock concerts or football games, it was the alcohol drinkers who got into all the fights and throwing up, we only fought over the last pizza. When your much older, illegal drugs can cause more pain than pleasure like marijuana yet less dangerous and addictive than coffee, not anyway more gateway than from milk to beer.
Only 13% of prisoners are in jail for violent crimes the largest count of criminals are marijuana convictions. When you connect marijuana to violent, homicides and crime in general you are living a lie with the synthetics. There is no greater diversity and productive plants on face of the earth than the cannabis plant. Where nuclear weapons and firearms is the most wasteful and dangerous tool in human history
You speak of cultural differences between the U.S and Canada and how that weighs into to this discussion. What do you think that those differences are? Do you think that that difference can apply to Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand? With all the extreme evidence as presented by others does this 'difference' explain any of why our violence crime numbers are always higher regardless of the weapon used?
What makes America different?
I've asked myself, I've asked others. The response from most others is "Who cares? Take the guns away!"
From me: a preponderance of violent sports (hockey, football, MMA, boxing, etc.). Violent video games. The extreme amount of violence on TV and movies and glorification of it. Drugs. Marijuana laws (did you know there was an enormous swing up in homicide rates during prohibition and a downswing when it ended? And that the same thing happened with laws against marijuana, now declining at the same time the laws are losing their sting?). Poverty. A feeling of helplessness, unusual in American culture, as entitlements take over responsibility for individuals. As a developed nation, we are among the youngest - is that it? We just haven't grown up?
I don't know. And can't find hardly anyone willing to speculate and no one at all in government. It would, after all, mean changing ourselves rather than taking something from someone else. It's not a popular stance - "there's something wrong with us as a people" - and doesn't sit nearly as easy as banning something so many have an irrational fear of anyway.
That is an honest answer.
Is it the media? The media is just giving us what it is that we crave.
When I visited England and Western Europe back in the Seventies, the biggest complaint that was shared with me by the natives was that Americans were provincial, arrogant and pushy. Could any of this be part of our "frontier" past and the characteristics needed by folks for how the West was won?
The Canadians told me that they were appalled as to how little the average
American knew about their country, while they knew all about us. We did not recognize that THIS was Canada not just another one of 50 states.
Prohibition was a dumb idea at the outset. To think that you could actually deny a man a drink. It was the opening for violent crime. Would an Al Capone and his mayhem been possible in London or Paris under similar conditions experienced in the U.S. during the period?
Most interesting.....
"provincial, arrogant and pushy."
Maybe - there are certainly an awful lot of provincial Americans that could tell the difference between England and Germany. Even if they heard the language.
But arrogant and pushy - I think that is likely a difference in culture and customs more than something that would create violence in it's own culture. Pushy, for instance - Europeans where I traveled have a much different idea of what personal space should be and I could see it becoming a literal pushing match. Same for arrogance - Europeans I met were, in general, more "genteel" and polite. But that's their culture and mannerisms, not an indication of violence in those from other lands.
And maybe I'm all wet - there is something that makes Americans violent! Maybe what I said - youth as a society - and you said the same thing. That we still live in the Wild West. I do think there is something to that - my grandmother was a pioneer child and I'm sure some of her attitudes have passed down through my parents to me.
I wouldn't get too deep into national stereotyping but there are significant cultural differences between nationalities.
The stand out thing with American culture is the exaggerated belief in individualism and the way that it diminishes the possibilities of social change.
Castelpaloma's point earlier sums it up:
In the US when an American gets upset:
I am going to get my gun.
When a Canadian gets upset:
I am going to write a letter.
So even though the US recently demonstrated despair in its vote for Trump, it is desperate to hang on to all those things which are poisoning it. Like guns, like healthcare anxiety, like growing inequality and declining life opportunities.
A few of the underlying notions:
It is an admission of weakness to join with others to seek a better deal
If I cannot fix something for myself, I do not deserve having something fixed
And this leads to:
Government never did anything for me
Democracy does not work
Let the rich run the country.
And the ultimate outcome? While the dark side of capitalism has been mitigated in most advanced countries it is actually growing stronger in the US.
For once you may have something, minus the propaganda for socialism. Americans ARE still more self sufficient that most other developed countries. We DO try and do things ourselves rather than "write a letter" to get someone else to do it for us. And it seems entirely possible that this is translated into more action than citizens of other countries might take.
It still leaves us asking why it leads to death, and why it is done when it so seldom accomplishes anything anyway. Shooting a rival gang member - yeah, I guess that might "help". Shooting a school full of children not so much. And certainly randomly setting bombs off or killing random people helps nothing. Of course I maintain that those kind of people are insane anyway...
Somebody commented a while back that if you're not into drugs, not a gang member and don't live in the slums your chance of being murdered is almost nil. Which is true and also points somewhere - now if we could just understand where that is...
Are you saying that it is only possible for ordinary people to get a fair deal with full blown socialism?
You do not think that the productive capacity of capitalism can be harnessed to benefit everyone?
Or perhaps you believe that ordinary people are forever doomed to suffer? And deserve to suffer?
Give true democracy a chance, the rest the Americans can iron it out.
So highly trained professionals cops kill civilians like flies and the part timers manage to show restraint?
Interesting. Almost a reason to vote for Trump.
Come on wilderness, you ought to be commending Castlepaloma for his efforts; if more Law Enforcement Officers didn’t have the attitude of ‘kill first and ask questions later’ then perhaps the police might kill fewer American citizens.
Surely that would be a good thing.
Plus I note your maths are a bit skewed e.g. multiplying the 9/11 incident (which was a once off) by 8 to make it 24,000 when in fact it was only 2,996?
The fact that American police kill almost a 1,000 people a year; even if you include the 2,996 people killed in 9/11 and all other USA citizens killed by terrorists over the past 20 years, the number of American citizens killed by terrorists is still dwarfed by the number of American citizens killed by police.
Nice Try Wilderness, when you say:-
“Surprisingly, I have to agree with a basic difference between Canadians and Americans, although you might be surprised if you look up the murder rates of each using knives. Canada far surpasses the US there.”
To put it into perspective; you forgot to mention that in 2014 there was a grand total of just 605 homicides in Canada, which pales into insignificance to the 15,696 homicides in the USA over the same period; which suggests to me that America is by far a more violent country, and of those 15,696 homicides in the USA 67.9% were caused by Americans using guns to kill other Americans.
??? That was my point; that there is a cultural difference between Canada and the US; the people of the US are far more violent, far more willing to kill each other.
Not sure what the 68% using a gun has to do with anything though. Unless you're going to pretend that without the gun Americans wouldn't be violent and kill?
Wilderness, it was you who claimed that more homicides were by means other than the use of guns; I’m merely pointing out that in fact most homicides (68%) are caused by the use of guns.
The problem with guns is that they are more lethal than any other weapon; you only have to point the gun at someone (from a distance), pull the trigger (Bang, Bang) you’re dead. And with a gun you can kill multiple people from a distance within seconds.
Whereas with a knife (for example) you have to be within arm’s length of someone to kill them, you can only kill one person at a time, and that person does have a better chance of fending off a knife attacker than they do a bullet.
All true, but your point is...what? That without guns the homicide rate would drop? Experiences shows it won't, and I've said that repeatedly so what IS the point?
Nathan, you can come up will dozens or hundreds of "common sense" rationalizations that guns cause murders, that without guns there wouldn't be so many murders. And every single one of them fails in the face of real life experience that very plainly shows the concept to be false. No matter how "obvious" or "common sense" the reasoning it will never equal, or even come close, to actual experience.
Wilderness, you said…
“A very good way to get killed is to convince an already nervous cop that you are a threat.”
I say... only in America; in other countries around the world the situation is handled differently, and innocent people are not killed by the police.
Of course they aren't. Not in N Korea, not in Russia, not in Saudi Arabia. Not even in the UK or France. Innocent people are never, ever killed anywhere in the world but the US.
Say what you wish, it doesn't make it true.
Wilderness, FYI; in separate incidences, in the UK between 1920 and 1999 the police killed 27 people, and from 2000 to 2017 the police killed 42 people.
From 1920 to 2017 multiple deaths in a single incident = 29; which includes 17 during the Irish civil war of the 1920s, the 5 people killed by police in a single incident during the IRA (Irish Republican Army) terrorist campaign in the UK from 1969 to 1999, and the three ISIS terrorists shot dead by police in London in June 2017.
Grand Total since 1920 (27+42+29) = 98 people killed by British police in 97 years, an average of about one police killing per year in the UK.
While in contrast, in the USA the police kill on average about 2.5 people per day e.g. the American police kill more people in six weeks than the British police have killed in a whole Century.
The British police are well trained in ‘de-escalation’ techniques to defuse the situation and minimise people being shot; plus in the UK 95.6% of the British police are un-armed anyway. While in America, all too often, the police ‘shoot to kill first, and ask questions later’.
These are undeniable facts, so yes they are true.
UK Police Arrest Knife Wielding Man without Firing a Shot https://youtu.be/7fvbcBZQ_9c
I would agree in general terms fatality being higher but would listen to a more unbiased approach. Such as taking into account the HUGE difference population.
But if guns were the true issue, then our own armed forces would have destroyed themselves. Or are they an exception to the rule?
- USA single parent families: 12,000,000 Below poverty level 40%
-UK single parent families: 2,000,000 Below poverty level 47%
The UK population is 65.5 million, the USA population is 326.6 million; which is about 5 times greater. Therefore if you multiply the 1 person on average per year killed by police in the UK by 5 to scale it up to the size of the American population, then you get 5. 5 people killed in the UK per year would still be significant smaller than the 1,000 people killed in the USA by American police.
Really do you think I am a criminal or could they be policing for profit.
I'm the first person I have meet who got a jay walking and sleeping in truck ticket in my life. A seat belt phobia test was refused by the police before and afterward for this ticket. Because I do my own test safety on seat belts and find it is a cash grab for car manufacturers and not safer.
Worst crime I could have been lock up for yet not. Was smoking pot at a party. Since marijuana is illegal in every country in the world that is force by Americans. Only Uruguay it is legal. Then I must have created a crime against humanity. Since pot is public enemy number 1 STILL, I should choose a death penalty. How about a firing swad, no no Hurts TOO MUCH.
This better, First suck on the devils c*ck then I prefer death by LSD and a hooker, they can arrest me for that illegal process, what do care.
You said it, not me. You violated the law, you agree you violated the law (assuming you paid the ticket without a court fight). Guess that makes you a criminal, 'cause you don't get to decide which laws to obey and which to disobey.
Me, too, though - I often drive +5 mph and I did pay a traffic ticket in 1994.
I am sure we are all criminals and suspected terrorist. It all works well for Satan corperation Agenda 21 plan.
Well, we could just abolish all laws that someone, somewhere, doesn't like. No more criminals, but I'm not sure I would want to live there...
When claimed authority demand your obedience, specifically, by underscoring the fact that each individual – no matter their occupation or any other arbitrary characteristic – has the right to employ self-defense against an aggressor. those they claim to “serve.”
Only when it’s realized and incorporated that badges DON’T grant extra rights, will the institutionalized violence cease A favorite excuse of people who do stupid and/or evil things is "Iwas just following orders." This amounts to claiming that they were NOT acting as thinking, judging, responsible beings with free will, but were acting as unthinking tools of someone else. Put another way, the "obeying authority" excuse amounts to saying: "You can't blame me! I'm just a stupid, programmable machine, not a thinking human!" Swell.. You see, we believe that we are endowed with thought and free will, and that we are therefore obligated to judge right and wrong for ourselves, and obligated to act accordingly. What we do, WE DO. We don't try to dodge responsibility by pretending that we were possessed by someone or something else. Wilderness you don't like to be over obedience to religions or their crazy law brought into court rooms. Why do judges take the word of a policeman when you have greater facts and sense coming people who are basically good. Cops lie more than any group I know. Until you reach higher up.
When it is OK for a thief or murderer to attack police we will no longer have police. Just anarchy.
Why would theives and murderers attacked a policeman. I have the same rights to arrest a policeman with the same ethics and rules as an anarcist that in case of theif or murder. Even an anarcist would assist me or an policeman with an arrest. Just don't ask us to enform (rat) or arrest a person over a plant.
To get away? To prevent arrest? Because they don't like cops? Because they swallow the drivel of the BLM?
Yes, technically you may arrest a cop. In practice it likely won't work too well - again, if it were commonly allowed every cop chasing a suspect or trying to make an arrest would be arrested.
Yes, you can use reasonable force to arrest someone. I am trained to do so. But emptying out a chamber in a gun that happens so many times, when they are reaching for something non threating is murder, not a desk job.
What I do, when a bear is on top of me, lay there, play dead. People have become more afraid of the cops begging for money than the criminals .
Perhaps this video might answer some of these questions, while at the same time raising other questions:-
Hard-Wire: Law of The Gun | Documentary: https://youtu.be/66pr23xUKZc
963 people killed by cops in US in 2016 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics … ings-2016/
Points out that we do a pretty darn good job of stopping terrorism, doesn't it?
Yep wilderness, and it also points out how lethal your guns are.
When we have to look over our shoulder more for cops than criminal. We have lost our freedom and our security.
After all police, courts and troops are the most employed groups of people in the World even more than Wal-Mart employees. At least they have a job, OH My God! don't take the food stamps and the pensions away.
Good thing we're nowhere near that yet, isn't it? At least we don't if we're not a criminal - I have yet to look around for a cop unless I suspected foul play in the very near future.
Let see, in Saskatchewan I got a $400 fine for sleeping in my truck, when I pull over for a wail from driving I was sleepy. A $250 Jay walking when there was no other cars in sight. a Seatbelt costing me 3 point and $400, that's just is in one year. The only one I deserved (yet not really it was a very important call) was $200 cell phone when driving.
I took the police to court over a construction speed trap and won. Most people can't afford to take off work and go to court to fight off Police wrong doing. It's all about policing for profit it is the same for the US Troops and some of them are honest ones who admit they are the true terrorist.
Another reason I have to leave Canada because I caught them on a dozen unlawful acts of policing for profit. They are a danger to me, they can easily get away with murder more than anyone except Trump. Cost from Crime, got mugged for $20 of food and other odds and ends of $100 over my entire life. Greatest crooks are the Government and Corporations every single day.
In my youth when police were respectful they gave warnings most often and went most after violent crime. Today Police say ignorance is no accuse of the law so you better be a lawyer at the wheel. The only caught 1% of the real crimes wail spending vast majority of their time patrolling the streets and buildings. How could you compare a finger on a trigger of a useless gun. Other then to kill or practice for fun to kill. Vs. a cannbis plant, extremely useful plant for 50,000 products.
They would be far more successful investing each crime site, but that would be too hard like an honest cop would do. If I was being mugged and was able to report during the fight. I would lie in order so they would not harmed me further by saying I think they are selling pot.
So you committed crimes and therefore watch out for cops. Don't commit crimes then!
It is really not fair to lump everybody in one profession as "bad" because of the behaviour of some of them, even if the numbers are alarming. There are excellent cops in the U.S. and the world for that matter. I agree, in this case, the bullet was fired too quickly. However this is not a reason to call all cops a nuisance.
You accepted the old "bad apple theory" which is misleading because there is a edifice of silence. Ignoring the "Thin Blue Line" and what it entails. Some police departments were accused of using the rotten apple theory to minimize backlash against corruption.
One bad apple doesn't emerge in a vacuum. Police work by its very nature involves the slippery slope (the potential for gradual deterioration of social-moral inhibitions and perceived sense of permissibility for deviant conduct).
I personally had not only had my artistic career and industry harmed but also my environmental career destroyed in Canada and the US. Due to super high corruption in the Government and Justice system. To the point I became a part time investigator and security supervisor to get to the bottom of these Dream killer, synthetic and slave/hierarchy economy criminals.
Resolve- my aim to serve humanity is better served on another continent.
What is interesting to me is the rolling back of protections from the police under Jeff Session DOJ who wants increased used of civil forfeitures.
Adoptive forfeitures:
"24 states have passed laws that restrict or prohibit civil forfeiture, but that local law enforcement can now circumvent these laws by relinquishing seized assets to the federal government, instead of returning them to owners—even those who have never been charged with a crime. Known as “adoption,” this strategy has allowed the federal government to take more than $1 billion in assets over the last 10 years." - https://qz.com/1033545/civil-forfeiture … ral-power/
Or it could be "The Justice Department's inspector general found that civil-asset forfeitures took in nearly $28 billion in the last decade. " - http://www.businessinsider.com/civil-as … icy-2017-7
I read the above to mean that 1 bill from states adoptive forfeiture and the 27 bill is direct from the Feds civil forfeiture.
"Instead of revising forfeiture practices in a manner to better protect Americans' due process rights, the DOJ seems determined to lose in court before it changes its policies for the better," said Republican Sen. Mike Lee of Utah.
"Civil asset forfeiture is unjust and unconstitutional," tweeted Republican Rep. Justin Amash of Michigan. "It's a big-government scheme to take people's property without due process. End it."
Texas Court Says There's No Remedy For Person Whose Vehicle Was Subjected To Civil Forfeiture After An Illegal Search - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160 … arch.shtml
Please note this is about civil asset forfeiture not criminal asset forfeiture - so please don't hijack this post to talk about criminal asset forfeiture .
What ever happened to the 'ASSET FORFEITURE PROCESS AND PRIVATE PROPERTY PROTECTION ACT ?
Section 7. {No Civil Asset Forfeiture} (A) There is no civil asset forfeiture. Section 8. {Rule of lenity}
(A) The court shall resolve any ambiguity in this chapter relating to the State taking property through asset forfeiture in favor of the property owner. - https://www.alec.org/model-policy/asset … ction-act/
This system — where police can seize property with limited judicial oversight and retain it for their own use — has led to egregious and well-chronicled abuses. According to one nationally publicized report, for example, police in the town of Tenaha, Texas, regularly seized the property of out-of-town drivers passing through and collaborated with the district attorney to coerce them into signing waivers of their property rights. In one case, local officials threatened to file unsubstantiated felony charges against a Latino driver and his girlfriend and to place their children in foster care unless they signed a waiver. In another, they seized a black plant worker’s car and all his property (including cash he planned to use for dental work), jailed him for a night, forced him to sign away his property, and then released him on the side of the road without a phone or money. He was forced to walk to a Wal-Mart, where he borrowed a stranger’s phone to call his mother, who had to rent a car to pick him up. These forfeiture operations frequently target the poor and other groups least able to defend their interests in forfeiture proceedings. Perversely, these same groups are often the most burdened by forfeiture. They are more likely to use cash than alternative forms of payment, like credit cards, which may be less susceptible to forfeiture. And they are more likely to suffer in their daily lives while they litigate for the return of a critical item of property, such as a car or a home. The issue, USSC Justice Thomas wrote, is "whether modern civil-forfeiture statutes can be squared with the Due Process Clause and our Nation’s history.” Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 … nce-thomas
'Utah is one of just a few states in the country to require an annual report on asset forfeiture. 400 forfeiture cases in Utah during 2016, with cash being seized in 99 percent of those cases.
Cops like to publicize such busts because it feeds a narrative that asset forfeiture is used primarily against big-time drug dealers. But they're rather out of the ordinary, the report shows.
Most forfeitures (69 percent) take place during traffic stops and most of the time only money is seized. According to the state report, cash was taken in 99 percent of forfeitures during 2016, with the median seizure amounting to only $1,031.
That means, in many cases, the amount seized was considerably less than four-figures. In one instance, the report shows, police took $16 from a motorist.' - Elsewhere in Chicago, cops have seized as little as 34 cents from motorists http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/15/repor … e-just-103
What compelling reason does the State have in seizing 34 cents without economic due process? This highway robbery and state brigandage. These are not Centurions merely upholding the law but Tax Revenuers of the most disgustingly obnoxious type.
And that just the start:
" A review of Ferguson’s financial statements indicates that court fine collections now account for one-fifth of total operating revenue. The St. Louis suburb of about 21,000 residents took in more than $2.5 million in municipal court revenue last fiscal year, representing an 80 percent increase from only two years prior, when fines netted about $1.4 million." - http://www.governing.com/topics/public- … udget.html
"Folks have the impression that this is a form of low-level harassment that isn't about public safety. It's about money," - Thomas Harvey
The millions of dollars in fines and fees paid by black residents served an ultimate goal of satisfying "revenue rather than public safety needs," the U.S. Justice Department found.
"Many states, including Nevada, have faced budget shortfalls since the Great Recession began. But this one isn’t caused by a decline in tax revenue, but by a decline in traffic tickets, which provide the majority of funding to the state supreme court. “Now with all due respect to the citizens of Nevada, I don’t think anyone is driving better,” Hardesty told legislators. “I think the truth is we’re seeing less traffic violations because law enforcement’s priorities have changed and it has changed dramatically.” - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar … es/389387/
Does DOJ Jeff Session think civil forfeiture is a good, fair idea?
"Maybe Sessions’ enthusiasm for getting the federal government back into the business of civil forfeiture is just the logical result of a worldview that treats all police officers as righteous agents of order and all suspects as presumptively deserving of punishment. It’s the same worldview that has led Sessions to dismiss painstaking DOJ research into unconstitutional police practices in Chicago as “anecdotal,” to claim marijuana users are by definition not “good people,” to shut down the National Commission on Forensic Science, and to demand that federal prosecutors always seek the most severe prison terms possible when bringing cases." http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ … ve_it.html
USSC": Not a Violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment or the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-8729.ZO.html
We are experiencing the third wave; the beginning of the dirty thirty’s where the Government steal farms & property from the people. For example this man who owned a 1miilion ½ $ prosperity estate. Then the police wanted that estate, so they assumed he had marijuana grow op. The raided his home and shot him to death. They found no grow-op of marijuana in his house. The Police reprocessed all the owner procession and property anyways. They general start with the poorer of résistance and work their way up. They pull me over driving to tell me they looking for terrorist and drugs to keep us safe. What keeps me safe from them, as they serve themselves.
You should put this in its own thread ptosis, it would make a lively discussion. I heard a brief blurb about it recently, but have not followed up. But would be glad to participate in a discussion of this Sessions' decision. My uninformed opinion is that it is probably unconstitutional.
GA
Not a nuisance, hey.
American has more guns than People and tens X the guns than the US military. Talking to many American about Firearms and how they kill more people, I get this glaze In their eyes.
The 1st amendment can tell their 2 amendment to Fu*k off, you’re hurting people. They wrote the 2nd amendment when they just had musket and balls. Some say we need guns to protect ourselves from the US military, yet now the Military has drones and nukes ready for civil war and world war. What we have here is police and troops policing at home and overseas for profit. Very little about protecting you or me.
I never call a cops for protection, best to have your own system, a family to protect, blood or a group who cares. If a criminal steals your TV, your second or greater cost is the US court system if you can hunt the first con down. Driving fines and tax payer for police patrolling is great profit, an investigating cost them to much money. When they pull ME over in my truck, I ask what is the nature of your investigation? Then hand over my investigator licence, it often makes them numb or nerves as hell..
Thats too bad, CP. Maybe you could continue to do your "serving of humanity" here or in Canada if you used the barter system. ? (and stop using the word "career.")
Might as well start with you. We're gonna have to get barter-savvy soon, if you ask me …
which no one ...
Mix barter with tax system. Yes lifestyle is a better is word, if most understood that way of thinking.
I don't know how they would mix. Do you? If you are not making money, you won't be taxed.
Not true in the U.S. if you get caught, Kathryn, the IRS taxes the barter system. You are supposed to each report the value of the work you bartered. Then each reports the value as income. For instance, if Mary caters a lunch for John and his friends because John repairs her front porch, each is supposed to report it as income. This is a ridiculous law, but it is in the IRS publication. To the IRS there is no such thing as neighbors helping each other tit for tat. Most people, of course, don't report it. It would then be up to the IRS to discover and prove it.
Out of the 600 games of life we could play. Tit for Tat is the best game that I can imagine playing, and we are not allowed to play it because it is a win/win.. Where Chess is the game we end up playing where there is always a win/loser. Then we start again with suffering many losers and where only few winners lead the competitive game vs. a co-operative game
Minneapolis cops kill perfectly harmless dogs, too.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-can … s-two-dogs
Having a debate about Guns & terrorist with too many Americans, is like talking to creationist about Man coexisted with dinosaurs. I don't about the coexistence of dinosaur. But I do know about traveling all state except one and a 100 countries. When American have more gun than people and they have ten x the guns than the military. My BS detector, hits the roof. I feel safer with the veterinarian raptor.
Firearms kill more people than Aids, wars, illegal drug and terrorist combined.
Some try to justified caveman killed more with a brunt object and hammer evolved, thus killing more than guns. Fist, feet and hand kill more than gun. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. If not guns, it's something else.
Too bad numbers don't lie.
A Hammer Gross, that’s too personal to beat a man into a hamburger. Does plant kill people? Why is pot Public enemy no 1. More illegal than terrorist worldwide. Why not fill jails with terrorist, rather than pothead. Why only 13% of criminal are in jail for violent crimes, it was mostly violent criminal in jail when I a young man . Now we have Authoritarian killing more of the public than the public KILLING the public.
Is it me or is this policing for profit both troops and police as being the most employed on the earth. Should WE be terrorized about terrorist or them?
The excuse given for shooting the woman is flimsy,it is a total lack of value and hatred for human life that can cause such kind of an attitude.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor … 1#comments
It’s because of the hydroponic garden. The April 20, 2012, raid would not furnish JCSO with the desired arrests and publicity (a news conference had already been planned for the afternoon). But it would cause considerable embarrassment. Not only were the Hartes upstanding citizens with clean records, they were also both former Central Intelligence Agency officers. And they were not marijuana growers. Rather, the quick-trigger suspicion of law enforcement had snagged on — it would later turn out — tea leaves and a struggling tomato plant.
1997, Sgt. James Wingo of the Missouri State Highway Patrol started pulling surveillance shifts in the parking lots of hydroponic garden stores around the state. 2011, Wingo conceived of “Operation Constant Gardener.”
Before leaving the Harte house, police would only say the family had been targeted and surveilled because marijuana “seeds and stems” had been found on the property. The police also suggested the couple’s son was smoking pot.
A year after the incident, JCSO provided some documentation to the couple. Right away, they understood what had happened. On the official paperwork before the raid, investigators noted they had pulled the couple’s trash before the incident as part of the investigation. But the reports didn’t refer to “stems and seeds.” They referred to “wet glob vegetation.” The tea was field tested as 'positive' for marijuana but none was taken for lab confirmation.
“There was no probable cause at any step of the investigation,” the judge wrote. “Not at the garden shop, not at the gathering of the tea leaves, and certainly not at the analytical stage when the officers willfully ignored directions to submit any presumed results to a laboratory for analysis.”
It took over a year and about $25,000 for a lawyer to figure out what had happened.
Imagine if civil forfeiture had taken place, the family would of been homeless with no car and no money.
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were you surprised by the end of the story
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