Faithful To Our Beliefs.

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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Those of us that believe in" Jesus The Christ",Truly believe the only way to salvation is through Him.We only can hope for everyone else.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said.
  
  You managed to raise yourself up firmly upon a platform of superiority and righteousness, contemptibly pondering only briefly the plight of the inferior non-believing rabble.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that comes across loud and far too clear.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  You two cannot even understand a simple statement.
  If you went up to your dad whose name is johnson and said, mr evergreen wants me to have a truck. The first question your dad (mr johnson) would ask is who is mr evergreen?.
  The only way to God is through Christ is because Christ is connected to God. Despite the fact that Christ is God in the flesh, Himself, there can be no denial of Jesus being the way to God. The OT is not a separate book over there with a completely different God tacked on the end of it. It is not a SUPPOSED continuation... This is ONE book. Christ came to fulfill the OT and thusly, HE, Jesus is the way to God.
  Sorry if ya don't like it or approve of it or want to accept it, so deny away as best as you will, it doesn't change anything.
  There is only way to God and that is through Christ Jesus ON the CROSS. When we deny that Jesus is important we deny the Cross is important. Since Gods Son died on that cross.. to say the cross is unimportant is ridiculous and any belief that states the cross is unimportant is as unimportant as the belief. Zero.
  This does not elevate the christian above all else, although it does say they know the way, call it a paradox if you will.
  Good luck with this.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ________
  You're sure about all your statements?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Salvation?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, with your first sentence; amen! But yes we can hope, and pray, for others, and fulfill the commission of taking the message to others.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Any god who is going to punish me for simply not believing he exists does not deserve my worship. He can go p*ss up a flagpole for all I care.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He may punish you but we only punish those we love the ones that need love more than the others. God loves you and will always love you regardless of what you say or think and regardless of whether you love him back.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot for the life of me understand your logic, Dave. Are you sure that statement wasn't a typo or something like that?
  
  Are you seriously saying that the more one needs love, the more they deserve to be punished?
  
  If the amount of punishment increases proportionally with the need for love from your god, what reason would one have for wanting to love him back?
  
  Again Dave, where is the logic in your reasoning?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So what? How on earth can you think that love means anything coming from someone who burns you in hell for eternity for the simple act of not believing he exists.
  
  You worship a sadistic arsehole and by the sounds of it, you dont know what love is.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Its not love which counts. Its the stakes that dictate the circumstances. God will live on this earth FOREVER and He wants to live with like minded people. This is not a hard issue to grasp for anyone. Since we are talking about forever, time without end in this context... time without end. This means all decisions are final and cannot be recounted. It wouldn't be paradise if people were flying off the handle every so often or sewing discontent. Loving, kind, generous people can live in harmony, but whining, complainy atheists can't. This is proven in hubpages. The atheists are all on some mission to blurt out inconsistencies and lies in order to destroy and that kinda action mr. just don't cut it in Gods world.
  So its not a punishment that you can't inherit what God has its more a point of you couldn't handle it properly or you are just plain unworthy.
  I think the bible actually uses the word unworthy. That doesn't mean you are a bad person per se, it means more you don't measure up or you don't fill the qualifications. One i am sure is believing in Him and of course if you don't believe in Him you are not going to live like He wants you too and if you are not going to live like He wants you too... then you should not get what He has for you.
  Ya don't have to like it, you don't have to agree, but you did read it so now you know. So much for innocence.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That makes perfect sense brotherchanyan. Of course you cant possibly claim that he is an "all loving" god in light of these views.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes i can actually.
  He loved a small, frail people who were slaves, enough to free them from their bondage.
  God persevered with them for thousands of years.
  When the time was right, God extended himself to the heathens or gentile races.
  God persevered with them for thousands of years.
  No matter what a person has done, if they will repent before God and humble themselves and pray and ask forgiveness, He shall be quick to forgive. This is the process of salvation. Simple, doesn't cost anything but pride.
  Then God asks that a person listen to Gods direction and allow God to teach you what you need to know, this is the sanctification process. You will be surprised at what God wants to teach and the loving way that God teaches it.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you missed the word "all" out of al loving. You cannot claim that god is ALL loving while he sends ANYONE to hell for ANY reason.
  
  Especially since it is an infinate punishment for a finite crime.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent point.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not really.
  God doesn't send...
  The person made their choice...rejected God, His love and sacrifice for them...
  If one rejects God, there's only one place left outside of Heaven to go to... (sad, but true)
  
  The real puzzle then is, WHY on Earth would you reject Him? You acknowledge the claim (at least) that He IS (claims to be) all loving, yet you still say "NO THANKS".
  
  That I don't understand.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I didnt make a choice. I cant choose what to believe and what not to believe. Can you? I just dont believe in god because the story is not believable. I cant force myself to believe in something that I dont think is true.
  
  And that is why god cannot be ALL loving. Because he created me in the knowledge that I wouldnt believe since he is all knowing so he knew before he created me that I would go to hell forever. Its not my fault I dont believe in the christian god. I also dont believe in any other gods.
  
  What I dont understand is how you can choose what you want to believe. If you dont believe something to exist, then what dos it matter wether or not someone tells you that the non existant being loves you or not?
  
  If I told you the exact same story about a different god (heaven, hell, sacrifice, forgiveness, all loving) would you choose to believe me or would you not be able to force yourself to believe?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is no compulsion from to believe. NONE.
  Nor is there from Him either.
  
  Jesus message is the key. Many didn't believe Him then, and many don't still today.
  I just took the words He said on face value, and accepted Him into my life. (I wrote about it, called "my story of faith", if you want to know how it happened).
  
  Once I did that, and undeniable, irrefutable change took place on the inside of me. I am not alone. Many others have a similar story. Jesus CHANGED their lives (for the better). If there were NO Jesus, nor God, this would be impossible, a mere delusion, as so many call it. But it's very real.
  
  Trouble is, if you don't come to Him, and ask, He will not force it on you, and you will continue to be the same as you are now. Not experiencing His love and all else.
  
  The ball is, and always was, in your court. You can respond to Him, or you can just keep "pushing, knocking, arguing, etc"..
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I already told you I dont believe he exists and youre telling me to accept that he does? I DONT BELIEVE HE EXISTS how can you accept something that isnt real?
  
  Will you accept Vishnu? Why dont you accept Thor or Zeus? Can you? Is it a choice?
  
  Hindu's report life changing experiences with their religion. Does that mean Vishnu is real and your god is not?
  
  Changing your life is not proof of anything.
  
  Buddhism has changed many peoples lives too. Is Buddhism true?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said! You don't BELIEVE.
  
  I know, that's the whole issue.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, and my point being, It's not my fault that I don't believe and so I should not be punished for it. Anyone who would punish someone for not believing in them is simply not an all loving being.
  
  That was what I was trying to get across to brotherochanan.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know that.
  
  But you are only relating part of the story.
  
  There is a WHOLE story. It includes every aspect. The sin, the punishment, the sacrifice, the forgiveness, the solution...
  
  You might be right in saying this is unfair, or that is unfair, and so on. That's not going to change the reality that it IS.
  
  It's like saying, I can't fly. Yes true. But it's just the way it is.
  But it's not right, I WANT to fly. Yes, you're right, but you CAN'T.
  It's just the way it is!
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  BTW, you are not being punished for not believing.
  You are offered a way out of a (certain) dilemma. You choose not to accept it. You determine your own fate, based on God's established order. After all He's God. This is the way it is.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, it is NOT a choice. I take it you dont think hell for eternity is a punishment?
  
  Maybe your determining your own fate by not believing in Thor and he's going to burn you in hell forever but its your choice and your sending yourself there.
  
  Can you not see how ridiculously absurd what you are saying is?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your problem is that, to you, ALL gods are fake, nonexistent or whatever.
  
  What I'm saying is there is ONLY ONE. I have found Him.
  
  There is(are) NO OTHER(S).
  
  Your argument is meaningless in the context of ONE.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Youre ignoring my post. If your god is real because it changed your life then why is the claim of a hindu receiving life changing inspiration from his god any less credible?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's for you to research.
  Find some Hindu's, or Buddhists and ask them. I can't comment on their experiences. Sorry.
  Every place I looked, no change in my life.
  Last place I looked, I found!
  
  Once you find, you stop looking. Well, I did.
  Did you read my hub? It gives you more detail there. Up to you!
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe I'll go talk to a Hindu and find the life changing evidence of Vishnu that all the Hindu's have already found.
  
  That was the only evidence you had for your god right? It changed your life?
  
  If thats evidence, then Hindu's have evidence for Vishnu. Why dont you accept their evidence?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's not the only evidence, merely the most personal.
  There are many more reasons for my faith, too numerous to post on the forums.
  Most of these are objetive, and not subjective, such as my testimony.
  
  Gotta go. The real world awaits me.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  After 5 years of discussing religion I have yet to see a single piece of objective evidence for a god.
  
  Isnt the christian god supernatural? Outside of nature? How can you have objective evidence for something that doesnt manifest itself in nature?
  
  Have a nice day.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Trinity is worshipping idols; Jesus did no believe in it; he never mentioned Trinity.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I am aware of the council of Nicea where the bishops fabricated the concept of the trinity.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I say no thanks to Christianity. I consider the idea of heaven and hell puerile. I consider the attempt to create a box to define the indefinable pointless. I do not, in any way, deny the existence of something I can't understand; but I believe wholeheartedly that Christianity has taken a one way course so far from any attempt to find the truth that it has slipped beyond their grasp forever.
  
  I think there are good people within the faith. I consider you to be one of them. But there are good people everywhere. They are no less special, they are not in jeopardy of missing out on anything that may lie beyond simply because they disagree. Anymore than they are in jeopardy of eternal damnation by not following any other religion.
  
  I had been separated for so many years I had no idea what Christianity was saying. What I have heard here on the forum has made me realize that, by my understanding of the message, I am too far removed to use the name. I will not align myself with any philosophy that stands in judgement of others on such a grand scale. I cannot find a way to resolve what I consider to be intolerance with the thoughts I have on the topic.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks jc.
  Of course, you are free to choose your own life's course, as was (am) I.
  
  As I said, above, there is no compulsion from me.
  Jesus is the center of my life, based on His teachings, not some church doctrine. (these two are often mistakenly interchanged by many).
  
  Sadly for everyone, Jesus was the one who said He was the ONLY way. All things eternal hang on that one claim. Of course many (& you are not the first) to either reject that truth, or ignore it as too exclusive.
  
  My personal experience, and that of everyone I know, or read about, has proven Jesus to be real, alive and still acting with positive change in peoples lives. It has to be a personal experience, or it will only be religion.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dj, I see his words in a different light. With different meaning. Always have.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see any other meaning to
  "I am the (only) way.."
  If you can, you are smarter than me.
  
  I know many scriptures can be read to mean different things to different people, but, this one is a bit beyond that.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Could it mean...Becoming as me(not just following his teachings...but actually understanding them and living them 24/7) is the way to eternal life...
  
  Just a thought...
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think so. Absolutely.
  That's the follow on.
  Accepting the "only way" is the beginning, and not the end.
  We are INDEED called to "grow up into the fullness of the stature and measure of Christ."
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think Double Scorpion hit the nail on the head with his reply. And this is why I've always said those who live the words of Jesus, no matter their belief or lack thereof are following the message. Whether they know it or not. It isn't what you say, it is what is inside of you.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think I answered ds's post rather succinctly.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see that..sorry I was typing while you replied apparently.
  
  Anyway, like I said before; you seem to be a good person..attempting to follow what you see as the truth. I think you should simply concede the possibility that there are other ways, for other people. That's what I did when I was Christian. It was the only way to make sense of it for me. God used many ways to send a message to many people. The world is vast, with too many cultures to see truth from the same angle.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A good point; I appreciate it.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paar, if you truly see this as a good point, stop pushing the belief that everything hinges on Islam. I would have no problem respecting your beliefs if they didn't come off as if you were arguing that it was the ultimate truth and everyone must come to agree with it.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All loving.
  if He were not all loving this world would be finished already. He is waiting for the jews to accept Him.
  Loving does not send to hell forever and ever.
  Loving puts one out of their misery.
  Loving does so many more things that the list is too long to get into.
  I am sorry you don't see it. Many others in here don't see it. It is no coincidence that the ones who don't see it are unbelievers. While all the believers are amazed at Gods forbearance and tolerance and love. Its a positional thing
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  How very, very lucky you must feel. To know something that 97.5% of Christianity just can't seem to grasp. That is what it is. Less than 3% of Christianity believes the Pentacostal take on things so they must be un believers too. Throw on top of that the othere 77% of the world and you must feel like a god.
  
  But wait. You stated earlier that all men within your faith are the image of Jesus. I'm surprised the pentacostal males haven't begun to walk on water already.
  
  It is truly unfortunate that the arrogance of arguing a position that places you above all others except a tiny portion of a tiny sect is completely beyond your grasp.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how intolerant of you.
  I do not consider other denominations to be unbelievers, that is an absolutely ridiculous statement drummed up by your own virulence i suppose.
  Not quite sure where you got the "all men within my faith are the image of Jesus" from, but i have a sliding appreciation for your ability to comprehend; please to copy and paste the evidence of that.
  
  Christianity teaches that no man is above another. This is an impingement from your fleshly mindset.
  All through history new movements of God and secularism have been small. jesus had 120 apostles at the height of his ministry compared to the multitude of jewish torah believers. Anglican was at one time a very popular church to attend but has dropped in numbers drastically.
  Do not let numbers fool you into feeling secure.
  Thanks for the arrogant last paragraph.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not going to do you the courtesy of hunting down your posts. Do your own research. And yes, you have called other christians unchristian, and you have said the men of your faith are the image of Christ.
  
  And yes. I am intolerant of intolerance. Which makes me a hypocrite on that point. I am well aware of that, but the only thing I remember being told the responsibility of a christian was, was simply to love all people and ensure that I didn't contribute to the suffering. Stand up for the downtrodden. Speak out against hatred. Stand up for my beliefs. Nobody said anything about the foolish ideas you prattle on about.
  
  As to pentacostalism, I feel confident you're on the wrong track. Well, that is if you are searching for the footsteps of Jesus, anyway. For every scripture you use to insult a fellow human being, there's one to chastise you for that behavior. For every word of hate, there's two of love. Find what you want. Like I told you previously, that is the amazing part of the whole book; what you find is a reflection of who you are, and what you want to be.
  
  That is why I respect non believers who are horrified with the hatred contained in the text. I see a good heart. But those who claim belief and use the book for hatred? What kind of a god do you imagine you worship?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  So either your god is not all loving or he doesnt send us to hell? Well we all know what the bible says about hell....
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your argument doesn't quite hold water, though, does it? If God gave eternal life to those he wanted to hang with for eternity and let all others simply die and disappear, his goal of hanging with his like minded homies would be accomplished. There would be no need to punish the downer dudes for eternity. What would be accomplished by that? Just cruelty. There is more to it that the postulate you make.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You need to become more familiar with my hubs and beliefs before you venture into other areas with me.
  I don't believe in eternal punishment.
  
  I really didn't understand what you said
  are you talking of predestination?
  
  It wasn't actually an argument either. It is a bunch of biblical factoids stated in a row. Buddy asked me to support my belief in love and so very very briefly i did. Now i seem to perceive that you want to discuss something else?
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you believe the unsaved simply pass on and the scriptural evidence for eternal punishment should be ignored or interpreted away?
  Don't know how calvinism got in the conversation. What lead you to that assumption?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yah God will hang with his homies forever and only those he deems fit to hang with will have access to the tree of life and live forever.
  Calvanism is not mentioned.
  I agree that a merciful and just God would not just abandon people to suffer forever. In whatever way you see suffering forever, be it the flames of hell or the anguish that comes from knowing they blew it and it was true and they missed their chance, but we need to melt the mercy and justice together, just like we need to meld love and justice together. All of Gods attributes are just that, all of God. God is not 50% mercy and 50%justice or a little bit of justice and a lot of love, God is equally all these things.
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  proudlibposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All right brother, your god can hang with his homies. As I recall, Jesus hung out with a wide variety of people. it is the only close-minded that want "to live with like-minded people...forever" You give God your own small-minded, intolerant sensibilities. This is the problem with most pious religious fanatics. They create a God in their own image and then spend their lives using twisted logic to justify the base human pettiness of their God. And then speak in nonsensical patronizing tones about how "we need to melt the mercy and justice together, just like we need to meld love and justice together." Jesus was a hippy is right. You worship a sadistic a-hole. Except that a-hole only exists in your mind. If there is a God I doubt if he would want you to spread his word.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gee, now ya got me all wondering what concept of God you have.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know. There was a time I agreed with your statement that Jesus was my salvation, but it never made sense to assume everyone else was wrong. If you want to believe that, feel free; but have the courtesy to leave others to know what's best for them.
  
  It is the height of arrogance to hope there comes a day when everyone agrees with your personal philosophy and attempt to impose it on others by telling them only you know what's best for them.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is really great to see you stating your opinions with a wideopen mind...looking at things from both sides of the coin...And you still manage to stay true to those beliefs that you hold as truths...sweetness...
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
  
  But that's what's cool about truth. Everybody has it, and everyone's truth is different. It's what makes this site so interesting. Don't you think?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course...This is a great place...I learn something new everyday
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Me too. That subject you and beelzedad brought up yesterday really got my mind rolling. It makes a lot of sense so far. Haven't worked through it all, but it's an incredibly interesting concept.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Talking with others that have different views, and can explain the bible in a different light than you are used to hearing, always those with an open mind to re-evaluate how they originally interpreted the writings. Also, researching into the actual original words and the context in which they were used when written, clears up alot of mis-understandings...At least for me...
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about clearing things up. Especially with the Bible. Just figuring out who's right with the placement of a comma changes everything.
  
  But I like this site. Sometimes ten people say the same thing, but only one of them presents it in a way that cuts through and gets heard by the individual. I wandered around this place for a month scratching my head at what we were all arguing about.
  
  Sometimes I wish I could go back to the threads and review the conversations to see if people were actually as difficult as I thought they were back then. I try to be open minded, but they actually made me cry a couple of times because it all seemed so incredibly mean. Now everybody seems pretty reasonable. So, it must have been me.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker, Agreed. Jesus is the way.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As a child of God and a Brother to Jesus and The Holy Spirit, my heart goes out to all who deny God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit, for they will never know "True Happiness", or peace and contentment.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, that is what a child might think.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really Dave! That is not the view I would expect from a happy person.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Since you don't know me, how do you know what to expect from me? But what I say is truth.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need to know you Dave.
  Your threatening people with punishment through your god gives it to me real easy.
  
  Psych 101.
  
  Threatening others with your opiniion from a book lets me see your intention clearly.
  
  Claiming to have an invisible entity who is on your side of an equasion is a mental illness that I can detail for you if you like.
  
  It's common name is megalomania.
  If you really want to discuss anything you may like to look at what you are saying first.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You don't even know what you are talking about. I never threatened anything to any person. God will work His will in every person.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how you follow up the claim that you never threatened anything to any person, with a threat.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are an old fool. Where is the threat in what I say. "God will work His will in every person." I see no threat or perceived threat in that statement. You just like hearing your own voice no matter how foolish it may sound to others.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aw, c'mon Dave, I'm not that old.
  
  Dave, if I went around saying things like "God will work His will in every person" then I could very well be perceived as one who likes to hear the sound of their own voice.
  
  The threat in that statement is based on our knowledge of what your god has already done and what he says he will do to people when his commands are or are not obeyed, for example.
  
  The fact that you said 'in every person' would be reason to automatically include me in how your "God will work His will".
  
  Well Dave, it's pretty obvious I don't obey your gods commands, and we both know where your god plans to leave me as a result.
  
  So, if you didn't make that statement because you only wanted to hear the sound of your own voice, why then did you make that statement, if not a threat, also?
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can I possibly threaten any person with what God might or might not do in another person's life. I am not God so I can't threaten anyone. God will exercise his will in others simply because he is God and wishes the best for them. If a person refuses what God has to offer, that is between God and that person. I merely tell of what might or might not come. I would never presume to speak for God, only relay what He has taught me inorder to help others to see too....."There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You answered your own question, Dave.
  
  Here are some definitions for 'threat'
  
  - A person who inspires fear or dread
  - A warning that something unpleasant is imminent
  - Declaration of an intention or a determination to inflict harm on another
  
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess WE saved Christians don't frighten at Gods word like you do. If you perceive every sentence to be a threat, well, clearly you are in wayyyyyy over your head or perhaps you shouldn't be reading or perhaps you should just give up trying to read beyond your own phobias concerning God punishment. Not to mention your ability to comprehend is very low, oh did i just mention that
  psych 101.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hilarious. I can read the bible, see the threats there myself and laugh at them as being completely benign.
  
  However, when believers themselves begin to repeat those threats, then we have a serious problem.
  
  How very superior of you to tell me that.
  
  Ah yes, the personal insult, where would your posts be without them?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i try not to put you down but you are so dull, the words of God are just not in you. Everything except what you say if fallacious. The only proof you have is that you cannot believe in a God of the bible and that according to the bible is called blindness and darkness.
  The ACTUAL POINT was that the believer did not coin the phrase and thrust it forward as an actual threat... BUT that YOU Misconstrued the phrase and thought it a threat. You just subscribed to a threat fallacy
  Why did it take two posts to get one idea across to you???
  
  I don't think you laugh at them, i think deep down you know they are meant for people who believe as you do.
  this was not a threat
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have your god to thank for that.
  
  Funny how so many other religions and their scriptures make similar claims of disbelief, blindness and darkness and even funnier how quickly you seemed to have forgotten that.
  
  You make up fallacies almost as often as you practice them.
  
  It doesn't matter where the threat originates, that has nothing to do with perpetuating or following through on them. They are still threats, notwithstanding.
  
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with this...
  
  The Threat always comes from the perspective of the one under attack...Just because you don't think something is offensive ("threat") does not mean that someone else feels the same...and in this case, the phrase in question is a perceived threat to anyone who is not a "believer/christian", based on the past examples of how god deals with believers and non-believers...
  
  If a person is known to kill "certain" people with a gun...as soon as those "certain" people see them with a gun, they will feel threatened, regardless of the intention of that day.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  to double and beely
  
  But you miss the point, they are not threats you perceive them as threats but that does not make them threats. Threats are much more definite. Words of truth are words of truth. Don't like the truth, thats a shame but you can't go around hiding behind your assumption of a threat when the threat is non existent. This is what im trying to tell you. YOU perceive a threat where there is none.
  If you dont understand it this time.. too bad. I will not try to explain it to you again.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And it would be pointless to repeat the same mantra again. It is obvious to all that your philosophy is a threat. Plain and simple. Hell, in whatever form you define it, for any that disagree with you. Whether your belief is based on a lie or not; you are still making a threat with the statement.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How about this threat.
  "Smoking causes lung cancer". Don't smoke, or you will die from lung cancer!
  
  Or this.
  
  "Use only as prescribed. Abuse of this medication can have harmful effect, even death"
  
  Or this,
  
  Don't use drugs. Drugs will kill you.
  
  I don't see people in an uproar at these "warning" as their publishers are making threats to the consumer. Let them smoke and die. Let them abuse drugs, legal and illegal. Who do they think they are telling us what to do. How DARE they threaten us like this.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't agree with your take on it. Therefore, I see the threat as little more than placing yourself on a pedestal, of your own making, above others. Call it love, concern or any name you choose to place on it, but it is still wrong.
  
  90%.of humanity cannot be bound for damnation. It's insanity. Think about it from the perspective of a believer dj. How does God win that game? How did the experiment not fail? How arrogant is it for any of the sects to believe that not only is the world at large wrong, but other christians aren't christian so they are lost too?
  
  It makes no sense, by any reckoning except a person who has either not thought it out, or has an ego the size of Alaska.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am on no pedestal. I am not the originator of these "truths". The Bible contained it long before me.
  
  Second point, this great experiment does in fact state that all humanity was boud for destruction, until Jesus came along and made a "way out". Again, I didn't make this up. It's written!
  
  It's not 90% of humanity that's wrong, it's 100%. (Christians included). "Let god be true, and EVERY man a liar".
  "There are NONE righteous, no NOT ONE", just to quote two passages.
  
  I know it leads us into a circular argument, in that, well the Bible this, the Bible that. It's your interpretation/opinion, not mine. How can you be sure you are right and others wrong etc...
  
  That's why we each have to come to our own conclusions about Jesus. He is the One that it's really all about.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dj, even this makes no sense if you call God loving. What of people who live and die in cultures that cannot worship as you do. Are the muslims headed for hell? The hindus? The atheists?
  
  Whoever Jesus was, he walked this earth 2000 years ago. Christians can make whatever claims they want, but to say God controls weather patterns, answers each and every prayer, makes them speak in tongues and raises the dead in or world today is playing pretend.
  
  I guess I was always a deist. That Jesus somehow broke through to share a message and then God left us on our own again. Except for one point to ponder, I never saw evidence of the hand of God working in our world today..I never believed he was here anymore. Which made me know that it would be unfair, and unkind, to expect the world to take at face value scriptures that were contradictory and 2000 years removed from the source. It would be unkind.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I once heard it said
  "if you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything". I wish I knew who said it to give them credit.
  I have made my stand.
  You must do the same, or you'll be "carried away with every wind of doctrine".
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even funnier that he didn't see either of them!
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker:
  Salvation? What'd'ya mean?
  Ya lost me!
  thanks...:
  Qwark
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  Apostle Jackposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We all are invited to the feast of God,but everyone will not come for one reason or another.The plate of food is on the table,one should not blame God if they die of hunger .....in the matter of salvation and spiritual food.
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  proudlibposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have many problems with religion in general and Christianity in particular. You have stated one of the most disturbing. Any God who decides that George w. Bush, who is responsible for the torture of many and the death of as many as 100,000 people, is worthy of salvation, when my gay son is not, is not deserving of my belief, let alone reverence. a religion which thinks it appropriate to protest at military funerals with signs that say ":God hates Fags." A religion that says that hurricanes are the punishment of God for gay rights. A religion which condemns three quarters of the world's population and ensures redemption for war mongers, torturers, thieves and hypocrites. Which condemns the salt of the earth and elevates the scum of the earth. I would rather worship the sun.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank goodness your son has a father who acknowledges his gay son and has the good sense to see people as what they are regarding their sexuality.
  
  You have my respect and support in your beliefs and the support of any reasonable people here in my opinion.
  Hubpages has a limited number of homophobes.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the religion of tolerance is all accepting.
  Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
  Enjoy what you will. This religion of tolerance is an apt case in point for the proverbial dog biting the hand that feeds it.
  If we accept tolerance, we must do away with the bible and last time i checked, this is not what God was all about.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, god is all about intolerance?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  just like you are intolerant
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who said you gay son was unworthy of salvation? Whats the point of salvation if past sins deny any participation in salvation? The entire point or job of salvation is to clear the slate of Past sins and bring us into a relationship with God. We do have to take note that repentance is connected to salvation and repentance is defined as being sorrowful of the wrongdoings to the point of turning about face, 100% and living a life, opposite to the previous lifes sinful ways. Once sin is recognized then it is the christians duty to stop the sin and this includes gayness as well as murder.
  Touching on the salt of the earth. If i have understood this correctly, it means people who lead 'good' lives, not being, for example sake, indulgent in the 7 deadly sins but leading lives that help the poor and they aren't given to bawdy drunken behavior frequently, pay their taxes.. well you get the point... they seem in all ways to be quite godly in their day to day existence. But the problem with this scenario is that they live this way without the influence of God in their lives. It is my experience that the path of ones life without God is much different that the path of ones life with God. God is able to work with every individual.. and this means that God has uses for everybody; this useage the salt of the eath type of person is unaware of and again, falls short of the glories of God in their lives. The christian is all too aware of the fact that they are not able to claim a portion in Gods realm by their own efforts or works. What God needs to do can only be done with God at the helm, dealing, changing, causing to lean on Him. Remember the commandment, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all their heart, soul and mind.
  As touching on scum... God often uses broken people, the less popular ones, indeed outcasts and worldly offenders because these people through their individual debaucheries have come to realize they need God. The scientific, rich, and just to busy individuals do not realize their need. So since, God gave his son that Whosoever, whosoever, should be saved. Salvation is open to all. But salvation is the beginning of a turn around attitude and a life, living unto God. IF someone thinks they can suck c*ck and take it up the b*m, they should think frequently about the holiness of God as should the man who serial kills and even the person who is harmful to small animals.
  As to worshiping the sun. You would be just as well off worshiping a doorknob. As lovely as the sun is, this activity is likened to someone worshiping the painting of an artist but ignoring the artist.
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  proudlibposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your own words further prove my point. You can not mention homosexuality without immediately talking about sin and repentance. You admit that one can live a good life without the influence of God. "It is my experience" means that you have decided without consideration of others' wisdom and experience that your way of life is better than another's, regardless of the results of that way of life.
  Then yhou have the audacity and the arrogance to include my son as the scum of the earth because of his sexual identity, given to him "by your God?) at birth. and the greatest outrage you assume that he engages in certain behavior that is a sin only if committed by a male and then you say that it ranks on an equal level with serial killing.
  You are a mean-spirited, arrogant, self-righteous, and ignorant individual. It is chiefly because of people like you that so many reject religion. Do your cause a favor and shut the f. up!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not the world's most sensitive man, but for someone to say something like this about some else's much loved son is hard to believe!
  To hide behind the words in a book to justify it is plainly despicable.
  I hope some of his own tribe have enough guts to take this up with him.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mmm this is a highly charged subject so I feel I must tread carefully, and I am bound to face some criticism from one quarter or another.
  
  When I was in junior school, there was this lad called Karl. He was not like all the other lads. He preferred to play with the girls, he was overtly expressive, perhaps 'a drama queen' one might say. It was obvious that he was 'wired differently', and we were pretty sure he was gay. Now at the age of 10 he wasn't making some lifestyle choice, or being 'preyed upon' by the gay community. He was just being Karl who I doubt at that age had any real concept of his or anyone else's sexuality. Was he some evil sinner? Of course not.
  
  What I don't understand is why does the Church hate the homosexual with so much passion compared to the unmarried couples, heterosexual promiscuous, gossips, gluttons, and preachers who demand you tithe your 10%? Eating the blood of animals is strictly forbidden by the Law of Moses, and Peter in his commands to the gentile church, yet what church leader doesn't just love a medium rare steak with the blood oozing out? What church member doesn't like black pudding with their fried breakfast?
  
  I have no real answers here. The bible was written in a different time to different cultures with different concepts of morality. Having said that God instituted marriage as the means by which mankind should multiply and continue, and I have no authority to change or reinterpret what is written.
  
  What is not always appreciated is that the very same physical sexual acts practiced between gay couples, are also widely practiced between heterosexual marriages within the Church. "What's the difference?" you might ask.
  
  I think the Church needs to get a sense of perspective and demonstrate Yeshua in their attitudes.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  earnest
  to hide behind the book.... LOL you are a spoiled fruit arent ya.
  Since you like to quote other books and are influenced by other books, psychology maybe, do you also hide behind them?
  I'm not hiding at all.
  Gods word is Gods word. There is no sliding scale of political correctness, neither are his principles prone to dissimulation because of a new tv show on fox network.
  
  I deal with my sin and have dealt with many of my old sin habits and am fine now. Was it easy, nope.. was it difficult, nope... contradiction? nope.
  lol. God is good and faithful to help all those in every situation and thats another bible fact.
  
  sound of the buzzer, cobbie.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  proudlib... sorry to hear about your conundrum. This topic is obviously to personal for you to discuss. You want to know what the bible says and when you get it, you just rant and rave. Bible says what bible says. Personally i don't believe people are born gay but that's another topic. The fact that gayness is sin, it just that, a bible fact. This doesnt mean that they are unworthy of either salvation or understanding and yes that includes love.
  So good luck to you.
  The thing about sin is, that since God requires a person lean on him for the strength to change their lives, people, depending on how ingrained and deep the sin, can have very rough times dealiing with the troublesome albatross. Some people have not so hard a time and some have a very hard time, depending on that persons previous vices.
  again good luck.
  I don't think the church hates homosexuality, but as with all other sinful states, it does need to be dealt with. If a person comes to christ and a year later they are doing the same things, then two years and three, well, we just get another one of those hyprocritical christians don't we and everybody hates that.
  
  or have all the atheists come to think that for a christian to lie is completely wrong but to be gay is totally okay? My my... you peeps will have to write what you think is okay and whats not so that we christians know how to be christian, in your eyes
  ridiculous stuff huh.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, to make sure that the hate speech above is not your hate speech but instead the hate speech that comes directly from the bible, please quote the bible in which it deems homosexuality the same as murder.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the same as murder..... now i know you have a comprehension problem!
  you should get that looked at.
  
  I could debate this point that all sins are the same and not one is really above another, but this is not really the actual case. Sexual sins have always brought down Gods people and after all, sex is the most enjoyable sin there is. Lets face it, if sin were not pleasurable NO ONE would DO IT. LOL But that is not an excuse for continuation in sin.
  The problem with sin is that it is laden with traps.
  I'll let you figure that one out much to my chagrin
  
  you do get a buzzer sound but im not going to bother
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  proudlibposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  brother
  You are an arrogant, self-righteous hypocrite who speaks of love but expresses hate. Don't tell my you are sorry to hear about my "conundrum."
  
  I do not have a conundrum. I love my son unconditionally and I know without a doubt that if there is a god, he would not judge him as you do. Save your ignorance for your like-minded cohorts. We all know how you feel, and many of us are disgusted by it.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Been gettin lots of mail have ya? and its nice to know you speak for how many untold thousands! lol. Now that's arrogance on your part.
  I can be sorry about your conundrum and type what i type but that doesn't mean i am not sorry. I said it like it is. Personally i have never had to deal with gayness. Even before i was saved, it made me shudder.
  Now im sorry you like to infer untruths as truths and about me, which you know nothing about.
  If you think i express hate, maybe you should take another Quaalude.
  My arrogance you have mistaken for forthright speech based upon a long history with these atheists of which you number yourself among recently. I have tried many a time to put into context all the wrongness that they believe only to have them type again the same old information that has been corrected. They are only here to destroy and nothing else interests them.
  How do you know i am a hypocrite? I would like you to expound upon that please.
  IF you want to read my post again i hope you try to actually understand it this time. I have not judged your son, I judged his gayness. God loves your son but he doesn't appreciate the gayness. If you consider this to be wrong, then prove it. All i will do is quote scripture.
  The fact of you loving your son is wonderful and quite natural. You kinda don't get extra marks for this sort of thing. Families are supposed to love each other and help each other. I might say, that in Gods eyes, your unconditional aspect isn't doing anybody any good and i am glad you didn't bring it up as a problem but i have to wonder why you brought it up in the first place and then to react twice so with such volition, makes me think the following:
  i feel led to say, take the beam out of your eye before you examine the sliver in someone elses
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The sliver in yours? Try a rail road tie in both your eyes. Your posts display an arrogance and an evil that goes beyond the bounds of anything in any other poster's on this forum. How dare you judge others and hide behind saying it is the will of God that you be so hateful. And shame on any person who labels themself Christian that doesn't stand up and call you out for it.
  
  This intolerance of others is unwarranted by every word that ever came out of the mouth of Jesus. It is evil. Plain and simple.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please to quote me the arrogance and evil .. and the judging.
  
  You seem to not be aware of every word that came out of jesus mouth.
  I see absolutely no evil in telling it like it is, especially with such die hard atheists whose only desire is to destroy and ruin. They get what they sow and they have sowed discord with me and so i tell them they are shipwrecked. If you can't handle the talk... don't come against me. i will quote Gods words and cut them to the quick because it is deserved. I am not here to pussyfoot around with atheists.. lol... you don't like it.. too bad.
  Please to quote me the arrogance and evil .. and the judging.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you do honestly want to search your heart and evaluate my comments, take up your Bible and read only the words of Jesus. Don't add anything to them, just his words alone. Then come back to this thread and read through your conversation with proud lib. If you cannot see the hate within your side of this exchange, that Jesus himself was disgusted with; how could I help you see by pointing out all of the other times you have chosen to go against his teachings?
  
  I don't doubt you seek to be a good Christian. But, by your words on this forum, you have displayed that you do not want to follow the message Jesus shared.
  
  Whatever has taken control of your heart, and your mind you need to root it out and begin again. This behavior shows no love of your fellow man, no love of any god and no love of self. It is a scrambling to put yourself high enough above anything and everyone so that you do not need to question the validity of your own actions. It appears you are hiding from something within yourself you don't want to face.
  
  I realize the agressive posts of the other side are meant to taunt you. Instead of using the opportunity to find the love embodied in the text you have searched out the hatred to defend yourself. This is not the way the scriptures showed the apostles conducting themselves, or the early believers.
  
  You, alone, must search yourself to find the cause of this hatred. But if you are drawn to the Bible to help the search you must remember one thing; and that is the most fascinating thing about the scriptures. You can find both love and hate. The message you find and share is a reflection of your heart and who you are.
  
  You have to change your heart
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's pretty funny.
  I am dealing with a specific destructive individuals, if you'll notice who i reply to often. These are a tough cookies. Really i should just leave their silly posts alone, but correction needs to be given in whatever form it occurs in.
  For you to apply the conversation i have with them to yourself is the work of a busy body.
  Let me deal with beelie and when i reply to you, feel free to jump in.
  As for your understanding of things. I think you are completely wrong.
  You didn't understand my post about women and you're all messed up about this one too.
  I hit beelie pretty hard, earnest too.. these are major destroyers. The love i have in my heart is wasted on these types of people, so i do not attempt to use it. This would be another application of casting a pearl before a swine.
  Kindly keep your busy body assessments out of other peoples discussions. Yes the door is open and everyone can read them but when i reply to someone, i am speaking to THEM, NOT to the whole world and this is why forums easily become devils work.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I don't think you quite understand the process. If you post, others can respond. Simple as that. You think I'm a busy body. I think you have a twisted theology. There are no pearls in your posts. If there were, they wouldn't be challenged so often.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hence, the use of hate speech on your part.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I recall being severely thrashed with a feather, it was horrible!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  just_curious
  The only way challenge can occur is if, on equal ground, points are brought up that oppose. I have never been challenged on my beliefs only atheists have given their "opinion". The equal ground is scripture vs scripture.
  I do not get challenged.
  I get unsaved opinions.
  There is a big difference.
  AS i was just reading this morning in my daily devotionals pertaining to acts 13:44-52
  When we see others succeeding where we haven't or have failed in areas others have success in, or when others seem to get the affirmation they crave and we don't; it is hard to rejoice with them. As depicted in acts 13 jealousy is a natural reaction that causes much damage. How tragic is jealousy when it purposes to destroy a work of God.
  the process... When i discuss something with someone i don't usually invite the whole neighborhood. When someone ridicules what i say i don't try to get opinions about it, I deal with it and that is between me and that person. I would invite other opinions but just not any ones. We don't go to a gardener about celestial subjects or to a financier about art. Neither do discussions get very far when peeps talk about things they know little about. When people don't know what God is about or what a work of God is they should really, just be quiet. The whole point of debate is that LEARNED people discuss, never is the ground so unequal than to have uneducated and inexperienced people (in the things of God) talking garbage about stuff they know nothing about.
  
  So i assume you have read my hubs... or did the post about women and homosexuality lead you to throw out the generalization of my twisted theology? Salvation, jesus christ and sin nature are theologies, homosexuality is not. I think you have comprehension problems and tend to generalize too much.
  Once again my posts contain many pearls but unless you get angry over it, you seem to miss points completely.
  I wish you well but i am not interested enough to correct you again.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't read your hubs because your opinions in the forums are too outlandish to be taken seriously. You have never corrected me, you have responded in an unsatisfactory manner; continually proving you have not reflected on the message in the book you choose to hold up as your guide.
  
  I can pick up any book in print and flip through its pages. I could post passages from that book and use them as justification for my actions. It doesn't make my position the same as the author's. I would be using the book as justification for my actions based on my own conclusions. Why can you not see this point? Because you are wilfully blinded by your own arrogance.
  
  What you worship and what you use as justification for your posts are a product of a twisted imagination. There would be no problem if you lived in this fantasy world alone, but you don't. You attempt to harangue others with this insane take on religion. This is why you are challenged and this is why the arguments persist.
  
  No one can make you see reason, because your interpretation is unreasonable. No one can make you see how you are approaching the question in the wrong manner because you refuse to see. These are your problems, no one else's.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ran out of reply buttons.... but to your most recent post.
  
  have a nice day and please don't mistake the top light for the green one.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. Back at you, I guess?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I just read through all of the posts in threaded view. I wanted to tell you I take back any kind words I might have posted earlier. And apologize to anyone that might have wondered what the heck I was thinking in being polite in my response.
  
  I would have done this sooner but, quite frankly, I was ill from reading your posts.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and you did not quote the hate filled speech like i asked you to.
  
  I think i know what went wrong... you read something, got angry, replied to it, continued reading, got angry again, replied to that and in the end you missed all the good stuff and just got angry over what you remembered and not what you read.
  I read all my posts.
  I said there is something the sinner must do and that God loves them.
  I think you have a comprehension problem.
  Or you are trying to tell me how to deal with certain destructive people, which really is none of your concern.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I don't think it's a comprehension problem on my part. I'll be polite and call it a communication problem. Many people try to point out the hatred in your philosophy, but there appears to be a brick wall keeping you from hearing this. I don't worry about it overly much. I'm sure if you keep posting many will keep trying to get you to see reason. That's what reasonable people do.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, God is ultimately concerned about the sex lives of an insignificant primate. This is nothing but the hang-ups from profoundly ignorant, and hateful, goat herders.
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, God is interested in what is happening with his spittin' image. Kids sure can be a headache. We need to determine what in the goatherders writings is true. Like finding Troy from descriptions in the Iliad. It can be done...it has been done. Check out on Google "oldest standing stones on earth" Then, it's back to the drawing board!
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think the goatherders were hateful? Remember, Alexander wasn't exactly conquering w/ kindness. Rome subjugated all they come in contact with. They didn't do it w/ candy. This can be said of any civilization. Our own time has been bloody with it's share of atrocities. That fact al;one should make you feel like the pot calling the kettle black. Remember...Glass houses!
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe they were sentencing, gays, fornicators, and people who worked on the sabbath to death, out of pure LOVE.
  
  No I don't feel like the pot calling the kettle black, but I do feel like this has nothing to do with the point in question.
  
  Irrelevant!
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you should find out why wars are fought in our modern age.
  Back then it was for land. Everybody has land nowadays and we are actually not allowed to fight for land. (united nations)
  What you find might lead into a wider knowledge than that parrot speech you now recite.
  As to killin people for being gay and fornicators. Sound of the buzzer. Heretics. Heresy is what the catholic church killed about. And power and well... this is boring..
  get some better information and try to getitrite.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing but garbage...but one man's garbage is another man's treasure.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  or
  1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
  
  or
  1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (this would apply to those goat herders you are so racistly against.)
  
  or
  1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
  
  you talk of our garbage and i will speak of your foolishness.
  all you have is your opinion; the opinion of a man who failed to measure up to Gods ways, found the journey to a higher morality too tough and so turned back and now just rants and raves like an angry soul.
  Through all this God still loves ya, but you will not inherit the things he has to come, unless you come to terms with your foolish thoughts.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is concerned about all aspects of society. Sex is a biggie. As much as its desirableness is wonderful it is also a sword that has two sharp edges.
  We can see how the misuse of sex has caused many problems in societies around the world.
  Yes God has said how sex is to be managed.
  Man, however, cannot even manage this simple gift of God properly.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Points to note
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...and that's according to nothing but your insane bible. What a childish delusion. Your God is not real.
  
  We don't need your stupid God to know this.
  
  And by whose standards are you defining the MISUSE of sex?
  
  Again, your ridiculous, imaginary God has SAID nothing...because He is imaginary...something that delusional people can't seem to grasp. What a pity.
  
  Sex is not a SIMPLE gift from God. It is this kind of thinking that causes all of your distortions, with the intolerance, and foolish, childish RULES that you think are coming from your God. No wonder you are so full of hate.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______________
  Later I will explain the meaning of the verses that you think says that homosexuality is a sin.
  
  There are so many to respond to and they take a lot of explanation
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______________
  Later I will explain the meaning of the verses that you think says that homosexuality is a sin.
  
  There are so many to respond to and they take a lot of explanation
  
  And sins are not equal. That's not what is says.
  It is saying no matter what you do wrong, it is the same law you break. Not that all sins are equal..just all are Gods laws so therefore the same law is broken.
  
  I hope I made it clear enough to understand.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pure hate speech.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you have a corner on that perception.
  I will break my post down for you.
  ALL sin needs to be extinguished in the christian life.
  I hope you don't think that statement is wrong.
  Sin is named in the bible.
  The point of being christian is that God leads their life.
  In the beginning he made them male and female
  
  I am sure i would have gained acceptance if i diluted the word of God and said, oh who cares.... whatevs, but since i am far from a hypocritical christian I cannot but speak Gods words, be it hurtful or helpful.
  Unlike you, who have only negative things to say and hurtful. Not that i value any of your posts at all, indeed i think them to be under the mire on the bottom of a deep lake for all the sense of worth they have about this particular topic.
  But do and say what you must.
  i will do the same.
  
  I thought your pure hate speech post, was purely hateful
  sound of the buzzer! as usual
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christians have been "extinguishing" for centuries that which they consider evil and sinful. Millions have been slaughtered as a result. Yeah, I get that.
  
  Unbelievable behavior.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  are you still parroting this!?? Haven't you learned anything while being here
  
  unbelievable behavior.
  If you are referring to the acquisition and of course i believe you are... I am amazed that what happened back so long ago is still a burr under your bonnet. All that sympathy you carry around must truly be a burden and to be a herald for something dead so long ago... wow I just call this unbelievable behavior.
  Reminder again.. the catholics at the time of the acquisition were not christian by any means. They were a power hungry and control minded people, following the ways of their flesh and the dictates of their era and certainly not the "love your neighbor as thyself" which jesus taught.
  Christianity 101 my friend.
  If that is all you get, i will remind you of two things.
  1) There is more understanding outside of your limited thinking
  2) You are wayyyyy over your head in even trying to post your prehistoric notions of the way you get things because truly, you get things wrong
  
  another buzzer sound should remind you how many things you have gotten wrong.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As far as the buzzer goes, that thing broke long time ago; buzzing so fast and furious at the fallacies in your philosophy you tend to ramble on about. Such hateful speech as was displayed in your previous posts is truly disappointing, coming from someone who claims to be Christian.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  please quote the hateful speech so i can show you where you are out in left field and give you the sound of the buzzer.
  Such an outlandish post as this one... you ought to be ashamed of yourself. The only buzzer sound, sounding is at beelies ridiculous notions and now you have one also.
  please to quote the hateful speech
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really? And yet, I see that same behavior in you and not the behavior Jesus would have taught.
  
  It only reminds me of a very unhealthy obsession with buzzers on your part.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  odd how you want to turn the buzzer around and put it on me and blame me for sounding the whistle on you.. you really are a piece of work. I will just remind you, since you seem to have the buzzer out of perspective also. The buzzer sounds when you say something stupid.
  
  I also noticed that you sidestepped all the points in my prior post, so i can assume that i am correct and that you know i am correct, therefore, live the life of a high moralist atheist and exude a defeated attitude will ya.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not the one with the unhealthy obsession with buzzers, hence I wouldn't turn it on you, that would be immature and childish. You are free to continue acting that way if you wish.
  
  You're free to believe that just as you are evidently free to post hate speech here.
  
  Why do the admins allow hate speech from believers yet they ban others for the most ridiculous and trivial matters?
  
  Does Hubpages allow and condone hate speech because it is based on religion? Is this the religious freedoms Hubpages adheres? Is it because the Hubpages admins agree with hate speech?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  even repetitive buzzer sounds don't get through to you.
  and hate speech.. well check your own posts too.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't hear or see things that aren't there, so I don't hear or see any buzzers. However, I do see folks with unhealthy obsessions with writing the word buzzer in many of their posts, quite childish and immature,actually.
  
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  Jaydeusposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is for those that are afraid of death and need supernatural reassurance that their life was not in vain. It closes the mind, exploits the heart, and squanders the soul. For one to think 99% of our species is damned to ''hell'' in an extra-dimension for not accepting an all loving God that lets millions innocent children suffer starvation is ridiculous.
  God's will is determined by the believer as such non-sense is obviously absurd in the willed-upon's eyes.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ------------------
  Explain what you mean "through him"
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Go ahead and believe in your delusion. Don't worry about us. We don't need to be saved since our god is a fantasy.
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  Shahid Bukhariposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Muslims, most Firmly Believe, in Jesus, the Christ, son of The Blessed Virgin, Mary. Peace be Upon Him.
  To us Muslims, he is doubtlessly an exalted Prophet of God ... Granted The Book, and Miracles.
  
  Muslims thus, Believe, in The Truth, Stated by Jesus, the Christ, son of Blessed Mary, Peace be Upon him.
  
  Muslims Believe, that Salvation of the then Present, shall be Effected by Jesus, the Christ, in End Times ... Thus, he is The Sign, of End Times, Peace be Upon The Christ.
  
  Thus, Muslims Believe Doubtlessly, that Jesus Christ, Is, to be the Causer, of Eventual Human Salvation. Before End Time. Peace be Upon him.
  
  Muslims Believe, he will gather his Lost sheep. Peace be Upon him.
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
That's odd. 'Cause He still cares about you.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He cares so much he's sending me to hell just because I dont believe he exists?
  
  You should do stand up.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure you don't believe in Jesus?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe there is a good chance that Jesus existed and why not? Who cares and what does it matter?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because He died for you, and the Scriptures tell us that He is God, the God of Love.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah and other scriptures tell us that Vishnu created the universe with his servant Brahma so what can you do?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We can believe whatever we want to believe. And we can choose to believe the one that makes sense. Unless "Vishnu" died for me and his writings make sense in all ways, I'm not believing it.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you believe in what you want to believe? I can't make myself believe in anything if I dont think it is true. It is impossible.
  
  Can you make yourself believe in santa? I mean if you really wanted to? Can you?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think, yes, if I wanted to, I could! When we want to believe something, we surround ourselves with images or things that relate to that, and we seek out people who believe, and we engage in activities that encourage our desires. It's kinda like the liar who keeps saying he's not lying, and after a while he starts to believe he's telling the truth or at least convinces himself that he's doing nothing wrong.
  
  There's one difference with the belief in Christ...
  The Holy Spirit can and will confirm your choice and belief, and will even help you believe.
  
  There are times when I'm tempted to not believe. And then I remember the Scripture that says "Lord I believe. Lord help my unbelief."
  
  Same with Love. You can pray for Love for somebody that you may not even like, maybe even has abused you in some way or other, or your enemies. Jesus commanded us to Love our enemies. So, part of believing is actually obeying....
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I truly dont understand how that works. I cant be dishonest with myself and just believe in what I want to and I dont know how you can.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For one thing, when I read Genesis 1:1, it makes sense.
  It's the only "theory" or whatever that does make sense.
  I can read some story about how mankind came into being because of some explosion or grew from some nonspecific molecule or unidentified piece of whatever, and it just doesn't make any sense at all.
  
  We are "connected" to our Creator; we can identify with Him. The Bible confirms that connection with the Spirit that is Love.
  He didn't just create us and then leave us alone by ourselves to wander the earth. He communes with our spirits either directly or indirectly.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No offense intended (im pretty sure you will be anyway) but genesis reads like a childrens book.
  
  It has no detail and it is self contradictory. It is poorly put together and it leaves almost everything to the imagination.
  
  It explains nothing. It simply states that it happened.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not offended. I think that's how it should read! It's a matter-of-fact declaration of what happened since the beginning of time as we know it. I love its simplicity.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, Agreed. It makes more sense to me than us coming into existence from some some sort of explosion.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Woman! Yep, it makes common sense and Spiritual sense too.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you had actually made a choice, that would different altogether.
  
  Clearly though, there were no choices made.
  
  First of all, you didn't make a choice to believe, you were indoctrinated to believe. Secondly, you have no clue what Vishnu says, hence have no idea if he died for you or if you agree with the writings. You never read those writings, how could you possible know?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think many people who were indoctrinated into christianity, all have wondered about its genuineness and i think that spurred them onward to read the bible more and question the passages, search the meanings and ask their own heart whats true. Some fell away, for a period of time and came back, some have not come back. So this indoctrination idea of yours as you put forth as a working brainwashing, i think has its moments, years of failure. IF all people who were indoctrinated never left God then i might say it could be dangerous. But let us not forget to add to your little equation that even those indoctrinated have left. Some have come back and others are still out there.
  In another avenue. You are totally sucked up in this believing the physical is all there is. You believe the world is your God or your indoctrination, meanwhile, many religions say that this world is only an illusion. To them you are believing in an illusion. I think you better hustle on over to the Buddha forums and tell them they are wrong too and lets not forget the other religions that do not believe as you do. I see you as being very busy with your indoctrinated belief in worldliness.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And yet, that is not what we observe at all. We see believers who have not read the bible at all, who merely parrot the beliefs of their indoctrination and learn nothing beyond that.
  
  It isn't my idea, it is what is being observed throughout the world with many religions. And, it is very successful in brainwashing children.
  
  So what?
  
  Yes, I understand the indoctrinated are not able to think critically and assume others believe and don't think either.
  
  Yes, religions assert our world is just an illusion and their world is real. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and dangerous.
  
  Yes, you've made it quite clear you are unable to distinguish the difference between indoctrinated beliefs and reality.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you parrot the idea of indoctrination as being harmful; while you indoctrinate everybody with your belief of worldism, naturalism and physics.
  
  While all through the bible, God and Jesus stomp the laws of physics and make sport of nature.
  
  Its fine if you don't believe, but to completely ignore situations where God is stronger than nature, stronger than physics and instructs people to treat this world as an illusion, a brief image, not the real world...
  is just heresy. Complete untruth, willful ignorance and vanity.
  
  this is quite hypocritical.
  There is only one reality, and that is Jesus christ and God.
  
  You are quite indoctrinated.. what age were you when you indoctrinated yourself into this realism viewpoint? Do you say that indoctrination at a young age is harmful even though they are allowed to walk out. And do you also say that indoctrination is okay when a person is an adult because they know what they are doing?
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If I were practicing indoctrination, then I would be persuading you to accept as truth everything I said under the strict guideline that you NOT think about it first. Contrary to that, I often plead with believers to think.
  
  Spoken from the heart of the pulpit. Truly astounding words, they left me speechless.
  
  I'll wait until you check a dictionary to understand the definition of indoctrination. No rush, take your time.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interestingly, your response does not negate what the poster said about indoctrination, it simply shows that we are all subject to it, yourself included.
  Read my hub on Indoctrination. I think you might learn something, but it seems you already know it, really. One can learn nothing from a single source. It takes an eclectic exposure to become truly educated. Any single source can do nothing but indoctrinate. Without a widespread exposure, what do you have to compare your preferred source to?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to have taken God out of the equation here.
  something i am not happy with.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  not at all. I suggest he may have more to teach you with more sources that would expand your understanding of him.
  Just a footnote. Why should readers on here care that they say something you're not happy with? Are you suggesting that should be a criterion for what we post?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but i don't see how you get my statement as becoming a criteria for what people post.
  Obviously i don't try to obtain followers or to please everyone.
  Jesus upset many people, teaching truth.
  Truth is one of the ingredients in the truth and it doesn't appeal to everyone.
  
  As far as outsourcing goes. I find the bible to be complete. Of course i have some other books, josephus works of antiquities, strongs concordance, vines bible dictionary and some hebrew book and some greek books. Interlineraries. King james bible is lovely.
  Having read apocrypha and psuedopigrapha books which are crap i have dismissed their teachings for sources i deem far more credible.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________
  
  You're comparing yourself to Yahshua (Jesus)?
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  thebrucebeatposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  O you find the truth to be an element of the truth, do you?
  A brilliant insight sir. With such magnificent intellectual revelations you are bound to achieve your goal.
  You will get few followers.
  As for finding the bible complete, how can you come to that conclusion without studying the truth about its origins? There is real data available for you to engage and parse, outside of the official cannon available. If truth is truth, as you have stated, why fear it? Knowledge is power.
  The truth will set you free.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christians have always taken God out of the equations and worship the messenger.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  not if we consider jesus and God the same person. The way i see it, God gave them another name to use since they forgot the old one.
  One God.
  not two.
  or three
  messengers don't sit on the right hand of God (in the place of power and authority) and neither did they get "this is my beloved Son, this day am i well proud of him" and neither were they sinless and neither did they accept worship, neither did they say they were the christ, nor bring in a new covenant, nor be crucified on a cross as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is God, the Holy Spirit is the power of God sent to mankind, because people cannot behold God's brightness. And Yahshua was a human.
  
  No not two or three, but One God
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  
  I would never consider Yahshua or your pagen Jesus to be God. He's not.
  He was created by the spoken word of God. and he overcame the world. The first to do so. He lived the way we were all suppose to. God was very pleased with him and gave him a place. It's a reward.
  
  The only other man called the Son of God, was Adam. Yahshua was begotten (God gave rise to him through his spoken word and he was not conceived of man). Adam wasn't begotten, he was formed.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with the essence of your post.
  
  Son of God in the usage of OTBible or Torah is used for beloved ones; or those persons who followed all the commandments of the Creator-God and therefore were loved by Him.
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sunny5555posted 14 years ago
I agree with Brenda, you do not have to believe in God or anything about God and HE will always love his children, with or without punishment. HE never stops loving.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Hey Brenda,

I'm going to interject something here-

Jesus made the claim to be god in open court.

He was accused of blasphemy by said court members.

Then he was executed for that crime.

How in the world could you possibly believe he died for the sins of humankind?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You mean because he was accused of blasphemy and condemned by a court? Their opinion has no bearing on my believing. "Let God be true and every man a liar."
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you are denying that he was executed for a crime he committed?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. In the eyes of the powers-that-were in the legal system of that day, He was executed for a crime. Yet He was no more a criminal than anyone else.
  But the whole thing was a result of God's plan all along.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, if he didn't make the claim, then he wouldn't have died.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  True.
  He was on a mission. And He accomplished it.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yes, he was.
  Actually, he didn't. His teachings were manipulated before being entered into the Bible. This is a fact, simply because of the translation attempts changed words, context and overall meaning of his teachings. Every believer I've ever met all agree that he was against "religion" of his time, yet his teachings are IN it. He despised "religion" of his time and told people to not follow the false idol preached by "religion".
  
  Yet, many people continue to follow "religion" known as Christianity.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well stated cagsil.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some will never see Cags...They are reading with a pre-determined interpretation of the words and teachings. Some cannot see past what they have been taught.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you
  I understand that DS. I've had this argument with my own mother who was a devout believer. And, now she finally understands.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My mother is like that...according to her, almost everyone who claims to be christian on here would be going straight to hell...but she is starting to understand...but she doesn't want to change how she believes because she is afraid she could be wrong...She gets its one small piece at a time...
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The biggest obstacle to overcome is learning "how primitive language" was at the time of Jesus. It is one of the sole reasons for confusion and misinterpretation.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh my yes...Trying to explain that to someone who graduated high school back in the 60's...Not an easy task..
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, its understandable. To a degree. I know my relatives are told not to listen to anything other than the literature their organization puts out. I try to be polite, but theirs is what I call a Dr. Doolittle religion. Apparently they are going to walk and talk with the animals on earth for eternity and I'm going to some rubbish heap to be burned. It's all a hoot when I'm in a good mood. Not so much fun at other times.
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  mistyhorizon2003posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said Cags, and as you know I rarely venture into this 'warzone' but I had to say you summed the situation up in a perfect way.
  
  Although I do believe in a 'God' (as a Pagan myself) I do still find the 'Bible' and the frequent quotes from it to back up Christian beliefs, well beyond what I am willing to accept for the exact reasons you state. Too many mistranslations and human manipulations to be credible as a 'back up the argument' source.
  
  I now politely leave you it
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you kindly Misty. It's always a pleasure to see you.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then let me be the first Christian to say Jesus wasn't necessarily against religion. His Father (God) (and He, God, but that's another subject)...was the instituter of "religion".....the literal Law including the Ten Commandments which He inscribed literally on stone tablets...
  Yet even then, Faith was a heart matter, not just a matter of following strict literal rules.
  
  What Jesus did was to "Spiritualize" most of that religion by offering Himself as a literal sacrifice.
  He was upset with many of the religious leaders because they couldn't see past the literal interpretation of the Law, even though they were supposedly experts concerning it. And He didn't like the Pharaseeical approach to "religion" because of that very reason.
  
  The Bible says the only pure religion is to visit the fatherless and widowed and to keep one's self unspotted from the world.
  Yet it also makes it clear that simply following commandments without a heart of Love is unfruitful.
  
  I for one don't believe the Bible is mis-translated. And I don't claim to be religious because I realize that rituals won't get me to Heaven, but Loving God will. It's difficult for some people, unbelievers or believers, even, to understand the concept of simple Christianity; so many people think a person has to belong to a specific church or denomination. But I don't. It's tempting to avoid the term "Christian" because it's so often confused with one of those denominations, etc.
  Probably the most well-known religion is Catholicism, and many non-believers use that as the standard for opinions and discussion about Christians, forgetting or dismissing simple Christianity. But I will still call myself a Christian, no matter how unpopular it may become, because that title bears the same title as my Savior.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually you are now mixing two religions together to mold your belief. The first 5 books are the TORAH from the Jewish/Hebrew Religion which is older than Christianity. Therefore, your incorrect.
  
  Actually, rulers at the time of Jesus were into the literal understanding of the Torah and it was to be adhered to without disobedience. It actually had nothing to do with faith.
  Actually incorrect again.
  He was against them because they were liars. Nothing more.
  Again, you pick from the bible which is your fault. Which was already explained in previous comments. Not to mention, you apparently don't understand "how primitive language" was.
  
  I understand Jesus' teaching about "Love" and "Compassion(Mercy)". So please...let's not go there.
  Again, failure to understand language is got you believing something untrue. What a shame.
  Brenda, I was a believer in a god and my studies of Christianity is what lead me to learn it's falsified.
  Savior? Blindly believing is what you are doing. Your lack of understanding of his time is your downfall.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I don't think I'm mixing religions at all. Jesus the Christ was there all along, with the Father. His human manifestation occurred long after the burning bush and the writing on the stone tablets, yes, but that doesn't make it any less of a Christian theology! The entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is about Jesus Christ, aka God aka the Holy Spirit.
  
  And although there are some points where a person has to have a better understanding of the "times", overall there's no need for that at all. The Word is timeless and rings with truth, no matter what year we're in.
  And yes, I've heard that many people who have advanced theological training do end up questioning the Word so much that they turn their backs on Jesus. That's sad, because what they've done is left their "first Love" (Jesus) for the opinions of man.
  
  Edit: I will add that, yes, as SirDent has said above, Jesus calls to you and everyone via your spirit. His Spirit to yours. Dismissing that is following the distraction of the adversary, who is quite adept at it; he has practiced it for so long, ever since and even before he distracted Eve; that's simply what he does, he tries to distract and to question even the very foundation upon which Faith is based.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you're mixing two different and separate religions to make your belief. Yet you cannot see it. What a shame.
  The context is TOO important to dismiss understanding of the time Jesus lived.
  There are plenty of theological people making it appear as if it is something it isn't. They didn't only turn their back on his true message, but manipulated it so people like you would believe something that isn't true.
  The first love? Is to self. Otherwise, you cannot love anyone else. That in and of itself, blows your thoughts out of the water.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  wrong cags.
  the biblical order of love is: to love God first and then Gods love can be shown through us. Again, we are to love God and HIS love is to be shown through us. Self in the true christian walk is crucified with Christ on the cross. We are to deny ourselves... you say we are to love ourselves first and i don't believe that is biblical.
  What you speak of is mans love. A love that is dependent on us loving ourselves first, but did not christ say. deny yourself and take up the cross daily.. and many others scriptures totally opposite to what you just said.
  Christlikeians loving themselves is not dependent in order to show Gods love. We need to humble ourselves before God and OTHERS, the last shall be first, etc.. We are not to do in our own strength but we are to rely on Gods strength, the power of his spirit. And when we love God, Gods love automatically shows on the outside and is passed on to others. How do we love God? "if ye love me ye will do my commandments". We show we love God by doing what God wants us to and then in our personal relationship with Him, our love becomes more real as we experience Him and his love.
  Your fleshy interpretations are so.... ummm.. fleshy.
  I think i just blew your thoughts out of the water.
  
  You always say the bible is altered. I think you use this as a wedge to get people to believe you because, honestly, if i were to buy anything that you say i would have to toss the bible.
  have a nice day
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  You really haven't blown anything out of the water. You have stated why you reject what is being said about the bible being altered. It would make you confront the truth about its inerrancy. You won't buy it because it is devestating to the idea of blind adherence to a book that has been abused by people with agendas for millenia, a book written in part at the very cusp of pre-history, the rest being recorded after decades of oral recitation in multiple countries in multiple languages by people trying to encourage followers and swell their ranks, and then transcribed by fallible amateurs (at first) who made scribal errors, either intentionally or by accident. This is the history of the book, and not the god, you worship.
  All of your defenses to all of the posts on here say essentially the same thing. The bible says it, i believe it and that settles it. For the people you are discussing this with, that is simply not enough, especially in light of the knowledge we have been able to accumulate regarding the history of the bible.
  The question that is at the heart of the conversation is, why do you believe the bible as written? If your answer is that it is the inspired word of God, how will you show that? How will you show the Tao does not deserve at least as much respect? Based on what?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brucebeat
  The bible says it, i believe it and that settles it. For the people you are discussing this with, that is simply not enough,
  
  Yes it is true it is simply not enough. Although i read the bible every day, often twice and even more than that I would say that i am immersed in the bible, so take it from an expert, lol... your opinions about the bibles incorrectness is laughable. Sure go ahead and repeat yourself, but in all honesty i could not purport a book that i thought was a deadbeat book. The bible is completely opposite to that. People who say the bible is tainted are not completely wrong. I have found catholic doctrine tweaks and history to back that up. My research has discovered what is wrong and it is not the huge percentage you claim to boast.
  In recent CHURCH (not synagogue) history the original words were not available to those people. We today have access to those texts, both hebrew and greek and this luxury opens up new dimensions.
  One of the interesting points i remember frequently when reading the bible in its leather bound glory is that when these books were written, books were a major undertaking. Did you know that the scroll of isaiah is 40 to 50 feet in length. Did you know that when mistakes were made there was no whiteout... the scroll was sacked and started over, this is not the work of idle miscreants set about to accomplish some irrelevant work. It is the word of God... and that very understanding makes people so very careful, so very intent in correctness.
  And so much more...
  So go ahead and say your spiel but I and many people who are daily in the book, i bet you may not have read for ages... are all in disagreement with you.
  
  The question that is at the heart of the conversation is, why do you believe the bible as written? If your answer is that it is the inspired word of God, how will you show that? How will you show the Tao does not deserve at least as much respect? Based on what?
  
  Good question. Answer in short is: miracles. The first line of the bible is "and God created the heaven and earth". There are miracles all through the bible. Prophecy is very convincing also and upon studying these prophesies, again, the people speaking them were afraid to speak a wrong word and when dictating the words of God they were sure to get it right. Again this is verified by all those christian who pour themselves over the word of God.. and then there is your statement... who are you? Perhaps, like many others, some disgruntled dissident? Got a degree in translating? Failed at christianity because you forgot that christ is the center and dependency on Him is paramount? And finally the last book of the bible, thousands of miracles later... keeps on speaking of miracles. I cannot forget the cross of christ either, pivotal.
  If the tao can compete i certainly cannot see from the dust of the bible which zooms ahead of all other religions.
  Oh i forgot to mention that i can certainly believe that God was incredibly wise while writing the book of study for his children. Books are so handy!
  In the beginning... God conceived a book!
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  proudlibposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brother, You say, "We need to humble ourselves before God and OTHERS,"
  
  I see no humility in your posts.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Proudlib
  
  ....stay tuned
  ....more to come
  some may be humble
  some may not be
  patience
  
  neither did i see any in yours
  did you see the post where i said your son was worthy of salvation?
  
  why do i not have a reply option to your post? all i get is a more --> button.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, Very well stated.
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  SSSSSSSSSSSnore!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see you're out blowing smoke yet again. This time, you're drawing attention to yourself and not making yourself look all that good either. Then again, nothing new.
  
  Stay asleep. You would be doing all the rest of the planet a favor.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Failure to understand the language.. what a crock... thank you for your semitic insights you jewish wonder you. What a laugh...
  are you actually trying to say that the OT and NT are a mixing of two religions together?
  
  Yknow what they say about people who can't do... they teach...
  you failed and now you seek to inform others of your enlightenment.
  Please, stay asleep and let those who are active and way more successful than you at christianity, speak without having to clamber through your false babble.
  I know what went wrong.. you had trouble humbling yourself and from that point you drifted.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, blowing smoke. Like I said, nothing new.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what no qualifications for being jewish and understanding what millions cannot?
  if your interpretation of my post is blowing smoke i dread your interpretation of bible.
  have a nice day
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But He would have died. Jesus never committed a crime. The San Hedrin trumped up charges against Him. What Jesus said was always true.
  
  In the end, even the spear in the side could not take His life. His last words on the cross were, "Father, into thy hands I commend me spirit." Then He gave up the ghost.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Blasphemy isn't a trumped up charge. Please give me a break. Blasphemy was against the law and Jesus openly admitted he was god, which defied all other teachings. So, no trumped up charge, but nice try.
  Again, another person who lack understanding of the language of Jesus' time. And on top of it, you're using the Bible as a basis and my comments previously state that it's incorrect.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you should go and look in a mirror to find the one who is in error.
  
  The saddest part is that you have heard the voice of God before and yet you refused to listen.
  
  It is blasphemy to claim that you are God if you are not God to start with. If God says He is God, it is truth.
  
  Jesus did things for people that were undeserving to recieve anything from Him. He healed them of sicknesses that no doctor could heal then or can even heal now.
  
  He calls out to you even as I type this. Why do you keep refusing?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I put up with you demeaning my life's work and I've had my fill with it. It's not me who is in error.
  You're ridiculous.
  Actually, Jesus said "Ye are ALL gods". So, you saying this proves you wrong. Go back to school.
  Conjecture and misinformation. Be proud of yourself. Your lack of understanding language and human development is your downfall.
  It's not a refusal, but you're too blind and/or choose ignorance over knowledge.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes there it is. That smug face of superiority. You have talked about how high your IQ has here before. Of course, now I am the ignorant one.
  
  The greatest gift you could ever recieve was offered to you and you refused it.
  
  You talk so much of your life's work. When will you have time for others? Is your work more importan than helping others?
  
  Jesus said something once. He said the blind will lead the blind and they all fall into the ditch.
  
  We say these things to you to try and help you find the truth. Then you try to insult us by calling us stupid, ignorant, miscreants, uneducated, etc. . .
  
  I wish you well in this life and hope that one day you will accept the truth.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Get over yourself would you please. It isn't about me. I spent plenty of years believing and then researched what I believed. Sorry, if you refuse to the same.
  It's not about YOU. What part do you not understand.
  Again, you continue to say that, like it is suppose to have meaning, yet fail in knowledge and wisdom. Go figure.
  My Life's work in study of religion is done and has been for some years now.
  The rest of my life has been devoted to helping others. Which apparently you fail to see or understand or even believe.
  Then I would suggest you open your eyes and become more aware.
  You are saying things that you believe, yet your actions fail to prove you have understanding of the entire situation. You just preach from the bible, which is screwed up to begin with. Yet, since you haven't bothered to research your beliefs, you come across as a preacher/believer who is actually empty-handed. It's a shame really.
  Truth? You cannot see the light of day, much less understand what a truth is.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have it your way. I will not reply to you if that's what you want. Don't expect me to give you free reign and not call you out when I feel it is needed.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you're making this about me. Cut it out.
  I didn't say that, nor have I ever said that.
  I don't expect you to give anyone free reign about anything. If you feel compelled to call someone out, you better bring more than the bible to the table.
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  proudlibposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags,
  You write well and with reason. do not expect the same from those whose only source of truth is the Bible and its interpretation by zealots and hypocrites. All education is suspect and true logic and reason are insignificant against the willful ignorance and close=mindedness of these people who follow in the steps of the most destructive people in history - religious fools.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  So you are calling me a fool because I want to follow what's right, and because I believe in God.
  
  Is that what you are saying?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  SirDent, Yes indeed. A discussion with Cagsil will never end. Some just need to have the last word.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have something to add to the conversation or are you here to just Kiss A$$?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whew! Seems someone is quite angry. I hope you feel better.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not angry, but that is all many of your posts are about. It's your actions. Nothing more to it, so don't read anything into it.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
  Woman, you have the patience of a saint.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And, the lack of common sense of horse.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did your research lead you to do things like this?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, now you're attempting to smear what I said. Look at her actions and tell me it doesn't lack common sense of a human and is actually the action of a instinctive creature more so.
  
  But, nice try.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Instinctive of a fellow believer, yes. Woman of Courage is doing what believers do, we exhort and encourage one another. It does indeed add to the discussion!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Brenda, it's called "brown nosing".
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. I myself often "Amen" other believers. Again, it's what we do.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Insults are insults. If you believe she is beneath your intellect, why stoop to her level?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It has nothing to do with intellect. What part do you not understand? It is her actions that gives away her true intention. I was just pointing it out.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  What is her true intention?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was pointed out.
  
  Do believers not actually read context of words?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you meaning where you said she was brown nosing?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Brenda, I do my very best with the help of my personal Savior. One thing for sure, I do not recieve garbage-filled degrading insults. It's a shame for any adult to behave in that manner in order to feel powerful. God bless you.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  You and Brenda always respond to each other so you can say nasty things about others.
  You pretend that you are righteous, and compliment each other about it. But demeaning others is not what your bible says to do. It says to go to the person you have a problem with
  
  Matthew 18:15
  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
  
  Don't be catty.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, I appreciate your compliment. Yes encouragement really adds to the discussion.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How are you Deborah? Your accusations are false. I will not argue with you. Have a nice day.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________________
  I see it in every religious thread you post to.
  It's not an accusation, it is an observation.
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  independentwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I just wanted to point out that he was executed for treason. He claimed, "He was king of the Jews." Roman soldiers even placed a sign above him as he was dying in an attempt to mock him! Caesar was already ruling Rome and Israel was declared a Roman colony. It was the only way they could get murder charges at that time. Rome would not get involved in local religious business. The "religious" people of the day couldn't execute him for blasphemy. So they trumped up the charges of treason, which would get the death penalty of hanging on a cross.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting you say that. Sounds like, yet another misinterpretation of events.
  
  Edit: Jesus wasn't of nobility and had he stated such, it would be a lie.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He never claimed to be God in open court nor behind closed doors.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're right about open court, but there is no evidence to determine what he said behind closed doors. Some scholars believe that the reason Judas was paid for information was that he told the Sadduces that Christ HAD claimed divinity behind closed doors, that he had claimed to be King of the Jews. That is where Pilate got the term, because Christ is never called that elsewhere in scripture. Judas telling them where Christ could be found was nothing they couldn't find out on there own. It would have been easy enough to follow him. But what Christ said to his inner circle was very intimate information, and it could have given them the reason to charge Christ with blasphemy.
  It's an interesting hypothesis.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  He claimed only to be the Son of God.
  
  13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? …..
  
  15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
  
  16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
  
  17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your position assumes that all that was discussed "behind closed doors" is recorded and available to you.
  Fairly large leap of faith, don't you think?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I can show you many verses that support this.
  
  If he said to Peter, I am the Son of God, and to others, I am God..That would make him a liar.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christ being seen as a liar is totally dependent on your interpretation of "Son of God" and Christ saying God is in him as meaning they are distinct. I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I have many difficulties with Paul also. I just don't believe I am in possession of the ultimate truth.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ____________
  I don't claim to know everything either because God is too deep to know everything about him, but when I am shown something I know it and trust it.
  The Scriptures are full of allegories, euphemisms, metaphors, and parables.
  When we know this we understand more.
  The Hebrews never use abstract words, but relate everything to something physical that can be known with the five senses.
  
  Matthew 13:10-17
  
  10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
  11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
  
  13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand
  
  15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
  16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
  17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even in prayer, he identified himself as the son.
  
  John 17
  
  1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and now we are the sons of God.
  All males birthed of a human being are sons.... Jesus our example in all ways, points to his humanity and deity. God in the flesh... what's God supposed to say?
  These words spake jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said Me, the hours is come, glorify me, that I also may glorify thee.
  
  Christ would have been so dead from the get go that his ministry would never have started.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your ridiculous beliefs boggle my mind.
  Was your Christ schizophrenic.
  Why would God go through all that? To impress you?
  
  If he would do all those things, why not just forgive you and make it right?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He did forgive me. When i asked him to and everything is alright.
  This is called salvation. It makes me a saved and born again Christian.
  
  Go through all what?
  take a deep breath, try again.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no he wasnt schizophrenic
  Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their THOUGHTS said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
  Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
  John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW thee.
  God reads the hearts and sees where he is not.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  You response doesn't seem to relate to my comment
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  John 17:5:
  
  Jesus said:
  
  "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
  
  John 14: 7:
  
  "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."
  
  John 14: 9:
  
  "Jesus saith unto him, 'have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, show us the Father?'"
  
  There are more passages too.
  Some you might want to read are John 16: 25-30.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Anything you've read, I've probably more times than you.
  I can post many verses that disprove this
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Verses that disprove those verses?
  Not so.
  Nothing makes Jesus a liar. Your inability to interpret the Bible is the problem.
  How is it, Philip...errrr Deborah.....that you cannot see this, since you've read it so many times, as you say?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If Jesus lied, he would be a liar. He didn't lie.
  No I can show you many verses that disprove your trinity doctrine.
  
  Those few verses you posted dosen't say what you think they do. It's your interpretation that's the problem
  
  And who is Phillip? I have one Avatar..me.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear, you didn't even read those passages I posted, did you?
  I had assumed you at least have read them before in the Bible, from what you said! Jesus was talking to Philip in that one verse I posted above. And you act like Philip as you deny the words of Christ where He says He is God.
  ..to the Jews a stumblingblock...
  
  The One you seem to seek has come and gone, yet remains here in the hearts and souls of those who are willing to Believe, Deborah. Since I know, from seeing your posts before, you are unwilling to believe Paul's words, I thought at least you'd take John's into account. He flat-out confirmed Jesus's declaration in the first Chapter he wrote. I think that's it----you're not unable, you're simply unwilling.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  -----------------
  Well, I am candid and literal. If I was going to say you were acting like Phillip, I would say so instead of using innuendoes and sarcasm.
  
  Yahshua (Jesus to you) was simply saying that his works and the love he showed was a demonstration that he dwelled in the Father and the Father in him. God was manifested through Yahshua.
  
  In other words the Father is glorified in (by)(through) the son
  
  Concerning John 14-He went on to say in verse 10
  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  
  Which is what John said about God and us.
  
  1 John 4:15
  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
  
  1 John 4:16
  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him
  
  But this doesn't mean we are God the Father.
  
  1 John 5:1
  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it doesn't mean we're God the Father! I agree with you on that! We're not God and never will be.
  But Jesus was and is special. He was God in the flesh. I'm not saying Jesus was the Father, either. I'm saying Jesus was God in an earthly body. The Father was still in Heaven. Yet that Spiritual part of Jesus was totally inseparable from the rest of God. And even then, even though Believers have that same Spirit inside us, it does not mean we're Jesus. I'm glad that, at least, you also see it that way, right?
  
  We humans can have God within us, but we're still humans. Jesus wasn't conceived like humans are conceived. His actual Father is God.
  
  The Trinity is simply God as a whole, evidencing in 3 distinct manifestations, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The manifestation as Jesus was for the benefit of us humans who could not (and some still cannot or will not) grasp the concept of the "invisible" God the Creator, for He is Holy and we cannot reach out and physically touch Him and see Him.
  
  P.S.
  Christ is the Son of God, AND He is God. I see no contradiction in that at all.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 9:17
  Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with this statement about Jesus; he was neither a god nor a son of god in literal terms.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
  
  pretty clear
  This makes God, the father
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Paar only believes the parts of the Bible that agree with his own views...
  
  the rest was written by sinful scribes, sinful Paul, or sinful John, George or Ringo
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sunny5555posted 14 years ago
Brenda you are correct, Jesus went off and prayed to his Father three diff. times not wanting to drink from the cup, but Jesus was left with no choice.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I...think He had a choice. But He believed the promise of God, that this life isn't the end of all things. And since He was and is God, but in a human body and with human free will, that allowed Him to look at everything from an eternal perspective. We believers now have that same ability, that same foresight that He so humbly exampled for us.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If we consider the cup to be his flesh, Jesus would not have prayed that way because that would be against the will of God. Jesus was heading for the cross and that was Gods plan.
  When jesus prayed this prayer he was asking that God NOT put His wrath upon him. At this point God put his hands on jesus and pronounced the sins of the world over him, just as the sacrifices were treated. The priest would put his hands on the animal, proclaim the sins and then sacrifice the animal - jewish tradition, the pattern given by God.
  This was jesus' loneliest time since God had removed His Holy Ghost and jesus was the most human of all his earthly walk. Notice that he called God, God instead of father.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The cup meant his portion, his lot in life.
  He was human and he dreaded it.
  
  You believe and say some of the strangest things.
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You deny that Yeshua is actually God Himself come in the flesh?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  I believe that God is come in the flesh through the Holy Ghost (Yahshua said the Father in me)
  
  But it was not saying that God turned into flesh and became Yahshua's body.
  
  No he is not God.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you believe that jesus prayed against the will of the father in respect to his lot in life? There is no biblical cup that represents 'lot in life'.
  How do you define father in me?
  It is as i said, God came down wrapped himself in flesh (was born of a human female). There are many examples of people being alive without Gods spirit in them, many examples, but the fact that the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (Colossians 2:9) was in jesus christ, says jesus was God in the flesh.
  Jesus is fully God.
  So you think God only put a little of himself in jesus for this very super important mission?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  Yes, and Yahshua proves that in his next words.
  Which was
  
  "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"
  
  Matthew 26:39
  And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
  
  Matthew 26:42
  He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  fine, if that's how you interpret it.
  Can i buy a Jupiter trinket so i can be wealthy?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _________________
  You're not my brother, so Mr. Yochanan, please tell me this:
  If a man is a Christian and he meets a woman he knows is married, is it OK for that man to write her a sexual note? or is it a sin.
  
  Is it OK to sin?
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  my wife says 'no' on that one
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  I asked him this before and he ran off.
  Oh Mr. Yochanan, where are you???
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  whats a sexual note? That seems rather vague.
  How much time has gone by and were there followups and did it seem like harassment or was it spontaneous flattery?
  Often i find with people they either read too much into things or not enough.
  Did others get a note and is it a trend or a one time event?
  Did he know she was married?
  There's so much to judge that i prefer not to judge.
  Thanks for asking
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  tis a wise man who listens to his wife...thats found in Oh my book
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________
  Why don't you read about the trinkets in the bible.
  At least I don't do the things you do.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  alrighty then.... enlighten me about these trinkets please.
  
  What i see is:
  -idols were eliminated. (for obvious reasons)
  -enchanted items were not to be used. (for obvious reasons)
  This is a form of sorcery and witchcraft that God said 'suffer these not to live'.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _________________
  You don't even know the meaning of Sorcery. In Hebrew and Aramaic the word translated as sorcery has nothing to do with enchantment or magic.
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sunny5555posted 14 years ago
Yes, after the third time of praying to his Father, Jesus was looking at it from an eternal persective. I agree.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus always had an eternal perspective. Many of his teachings are about the eternal perspective. There was never a moment when jesus did not (being God) have an eternal perspective
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mistyhorizon2003posted 14 years ago
Interesting article on Bible mistranslations with quotes for anyone interested:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm
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sunny5555posted 14 years ago
My mother asks allot of questions, so I made sure many years ago when I was to study the bible I went and bought multiple diff. bibles, bible dic., almanac's, handbooks, and encyclodia's, continue to study them all, also including,English, Hebrew, and Greek translations. It is easy for me to read any bible,but to break down the words, and every sentence and know what it truly means, that is a diff. story.
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
I personally believe self-love is selfishness. Self-respect is a different matter. I know some people who love themselves so much that they cannot love anyone else.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Brenda, you don't even realize you just went against Jesus' teachings. He said you are to LOVE SELF and Others.
  
  Self love cannot be selfishness.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, let's see if you're right.
  Point me to Scripture where Jesus said to love one's self.
  Maybe we can continue discussing then.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Love your neighbor as yourself". Can't love him if you don't love you, that seems to say.
  not taking sides. just sayin' it's in there.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  besides, self love is so much fun!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Bruce.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is that the jist of what you and Cagsil get from that passage?
  Actually, those passages, since the Bible does say it several times.
  
  I don't see it that way at all. It's not a commandment to love one's self. The Lord simply knows that humans are gonna love themselves. We're centered on ourselves usually; it's part of being human. The emphasis is on (as it should be) loving others! It doesn't say you have to love yourself in order to love others.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, it is common knowledge that if you don't love yourself, then you cannot possibly love anyone else.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wish it was common knowledge that was more common.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No sh!t, right.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not convinced of that.
  You got anymore Scriptures for it?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, if you cannot love yourself, then you cannot love others. I'm sorry, that's a fact. If you have no love for yourself, then your actions towards others will be without love. No scripture needed to support that fact.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, but we were using the Scriptures to clarify our stances. Remember? You said I was going against the commandments of God. You say you know a lot of the Bible. Help me to understand why I must love myself first, before I love God or love my neighbor.
  Tell me where to find confirmation of your view.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't love yourself, then you cannot understand how love works. I would have thought that would be obvious Brenda. Again, no scripture is required or needed to understand this fairly simple thing.
  
  You cannot grab love out of thin air. It doesn't work that way.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying you cannot find Scripture to back up your claim against me?
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  Uirikposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We don't actualy love ourselves, we are ourselfs.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the love mentioned in loving yourself as your neighbor is the agape love, the love that is governed by choice, not by personal attachment or affection. So in essence we get, choose to show love to your neighbors as yourself.
  This does not mean we pursue the pleasures and exorbitant lifestyles of this world. It does not mean we have ooey gooey feelings for our neighbors or ourselves. It means we choose to do the right things toward our neighbors as we choose to do the right things toward our CHRISTIAN selves.
  If we as christians deny our lives and take up our cross daily then we should not actually be loving (phileo) ourselves but loving (agape) ourselves. There is a huge difference which comes down to denying ourselves. We have to use scruples when dealing with heathens. If a person ask money of me i am not inclined to give it when i know its for crack but i may choose to buy them food instead.
  So all you people that are so obsessed with loving yourselves remember that jesus said love your neighbors AS YOURSELF. We christians love ourselves much differently than you love yourselves.
  enjoy
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thebrucebeatposted 14 years ago
seekeroftruth,
i suggest a name change, as there is simply no need to seek what you believe you have already found. that would be silly, wouldn't it?
people believe what they like and like what they believe, and truth has very little to do with it for the vast majority.
so there is that. at least you are part of the majority.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
@ Cags

Actually you made it about you when you stated that it was YOUR life's work.

The Bible is all I need. I don't need any of your other books that you used to come to your conclusions.

I wonder why you would use books other than the Bible to discredit the Bible anyway. What agenda were behind the writing of those other books?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's about knowledge gained from that work. Not me, as a person.
  Then, don't bother with the conversation. The Bible is inaccurate, distorted and passes along misinformation without all the other relevant information.
  The rulers at the time needed to protect their "religious" position. Which is why you need all the other books and information, so you can reveal the actions taken at the time.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you should ask what agenda was the bible written under, too.
  knowledge is not the enemy. knowing is the enemy.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The agenda was to redeem man back to his former glory.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Knowing, as far as knowing God, is definitely NOT the enemy.
  It's a total contradiction.
  Any knowledge gained that either separates, distances or keep one from Him, is the real enemy.
  
  Nowhere in the Bible is it suggested, or condoned, that one finds salvation through growing in knowledge! (other than "knowledge of Him").
  Salvation never was,nor will it ever be, gained by the power of the mind, nor will it be attained by any intellect.
  
  The Jews sought a sign, the Greeks sought wisdom and philosophy, yet neither was granted, and neither found the Saviour that way.
  Now, if you don't want/need a saviour, then by all means keep learning. The more the better! After all, this will be all you can live by.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are we not to love god with all our mind?
  Why do you take pride in leaving it on the sidelines?
  
  I will keep learning, thanks.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see you either misunderstood what I wrote, or didn't read it. I am not against learning or knowledge. I said you will not be saved by your intellect.
  
  So far, you are not saved (by your own admission), despite all your study.
  
  You seen to be guilty of analysis paralysis.
  
  Submit your heart to Him, your mind will catch up.
  
  Salvation is by faith. NOT knowledge, or intellect.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ____________
  
  Salvation comes through doing the will of God. Yahshua never taught you are saved by faith.
  Paul is the only one who said that.
  
  Yahshua taught to keep THE commandments and endure till the end. Yes, there is some work involved
  
  Matthew 19:17
  17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments
  
  Matthew 23:23
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
  
  Paul said we are saved by Grace through faith. You will not find anyone else in the scriptures claiming this.
  
  Ephesians 2:8
  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
  
  Paul said he had another doctrine. Absolutely nothing to do except believe. Paul is the only one that taught we are saved without works
  
  2 Timothy 2
  8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: (Paul)
  
  James, knowing what Paul taught, contradicts him
  James Said
  
  James 2:14
  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
  
  James 2:17, 21, 22
  17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
  
  James 2:24,26
  24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.. 26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
  Genesis 26:5
  
  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Deborah for your clarification.
  
  I agree with us having to do "works of faith", but salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned, nor deserved. I would have thought you understood that. And further still, I would expect you to ask me where I stood regarding this whole issue, before you so boldly set out to put me straight.
  
  If you atribute (the) salvation by faith to Paul alone, and it (seemingly) contradicts all the scriptures you quoted, then what part of Paul's teaching do we keep, and what part do we throw out? If we do this with Paul's writings, then which other parts of the Bible do we treat likewise?
  
  As for the quote from James, it is not saying that we are NOT saved by faith alone, nor is it saying that we are save by works of the law. What it actually says is that the two go hand in hand. They are both dead without each other! (IE. if those who practice the law, break even one part of it, are guilty of the whole law. Those on the other extreme who just say they believe in Jesus, and then "live like the devil" are also no more justified than the first!).
  So, we are saved by faith (no need to make bold), which (salvation) is not reward for any works, and then, we do works of righteousness, including keeping His commandments, as you said. Therefore we have faith, AND works, by which we are justified as His children.
  
  It seems to me that we approve of those things that we understand, or fit our understanding and reject, or denigrate those which we don't. That's a dangerous thing to do, and is probably the greatest cause for division within the Body of Christ today.
  
  You need not have boldened the parts you did. They are just as easily understood without.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  I didn't post this to set you straight.
  If you felt that way it came from inside you.
  I did it because scripture tells us if we are aware of false prophets we are to tell people.
  I underline things I want people (not just you) to notice. Not to prove you wrong.
  
  James DID say we are not saved by faith alone. I agree it takes both and more
  Yahshua said it takes the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: Faith last.
  
  Paul hated Christ and never learned from him
  
  If something contradicts what the word (OLD Testament and Yahshua says) it is not to be followed. Paul's writing weren't meant to be a part of the Bible none of it. Constantine (a sun worshiper) included it.
  
  Believe the way you want, it's between you and God.
  I won't reply to your posts again since you don't like the way I express myself. I never want to offend. I don't even know you and vice versa
  
  Someone who wants truth is open to hear others.
  I use to be in the Christian church and I know what is believed and I have examined it closely and rejected it.
  
  Have a great night
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's cool Deborah.
  It looked like you were making a case against faith.
  
  I'm glad we got that sorted out!
  
  In fact, I believe the original intent of hubpages founders was exactly this kind of discussion. I prefer this over barrages from atheists and all others.
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Paul hated christ....
  
  thats ridiculous.
  you should open a thread brenda and lets all discuss that point to its fullest
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________________
  Are you really so blind that you can't see what Paul was? If you are, that can only mean one thing.
  
  Acts 26:9
  I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
  He did he changed it from Yahshua to Jesus.
  
  Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21. He even taught this to the new Jewish converts.
  
  Colossians 2:16
  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
  What a lie. The sabbath was made for Man.
  
  Read Acts 9:19-29 and Acts 26:19-21, Paul was busy persecuting the followers of Yahshua in Jerusalem and dragging them from their
  homes to be tortured, killed or converted, when
  one day he decided to persecute them in Damascus. He went to the High Priest asking for letters allowing such actions in Damascus. I don't know why he would do this since the High Priest of Jerusalem had no authority over Damascus.
  
  He used his false conversion to infiltrate the people and lead them away from the teachings of Yahshua and therefore away from God.
  
  Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over.
  
  Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Yahshua and His real disciples did.
  
  Paul said God's law was a Curse. God, Yahshua and John said it was a blessing. But you believe Paul.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  circumcision was OT. The point here is that, if a person is circumcised and pleases not God then the circumcision does them no good. So we see why on the cross the mosaic law was done away with, because these are works and rituals that will not enable the circumcised to keep the commandments of God. Useless religion. The new religion is truth in the inward parts and faith that come from a relationship with God.
  
  Paul stated that the law was a curse.
  Yes, in that, it did not strengthen the believer to keep the ways of God. It only pointed out what sin was. It didnt bring the hebrews into relationship, it kept them in bondage to useless rituals that eventually became a substitute for God. Because they trusted in the rituals to keep them righteous, but obviously it did not.
  I would give more credence to Matthias being the 12th disciple if this disciple were ever heard of again. Peter picked him out by casting lots - not a good way to do things, since the church pattern was much prayer. I think God picking Paul was absolutely brilliant! and ironic. Ironic because Paul, being a pharisee and having studied at the school of Gamaliel and being such well versed in all things Jewish - was sent to the gentiles! I can hear Paul saying.. Look Lord i am stoked about this. I can talk circles around the Jews concerning Christ and Him risen (which was his main gospel). But all that ever happened was the Jews got mad at him. Eventually Paul got sent to Tarsus. Ironic.
  
  Luke 2:21 is not a teaching.
  The child Jesus got circumcised because the law prevailed until Jesus death. Jesus was his whole life under the law, a law he had to keep to be able to be sinless. After his death, circumcision, sacrifice, the feasts were not necessary. Christs teaching was all about the heart.
  
  Colossians 2:16 is not talking about the Sabbath its talking about the festive Sabbaths. The other Sabbaths, not the 7th day Sabbath. The 7th day Sabbath is always presented in singular form. Notice in Colossians sabbath dayS is presented in conjunction with new moons and festive dayS. Days is in the original texts. The exact same wording is in the OT, colossians is a quote not a new statement.
  i wrote a hub about Colossians 2:16 you can find it here:
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Sabbath-day-as- … ssians-216
  
  Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor
  1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
  Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
  1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
  1 cor was written first, eph written second, 1 tim written last.
  There is a descending order of boasting about what he was. I do not see this as boasting at all, just the opposite in fact.
  
  Paul going to damascus.
  My guess is that the high priest, being a pharisee and a jew, would have assisted Paul in persecuting the Christians. The high priest would have been a good reference. Rome persecuted Christians. As to why Paul became more voracious against the Christians is because in chapter 7:54-60 of Acts.. Paul watched Stephen being stoned (Acts 8:1) Stephens last moments were amazing, He pulled a christ on the cross move, calling upon God to not lay this sin to their charge and he declared he saw the glory of god and Jesus. Stephen did not die an undignified death and this really got Paul mad and he just lost it.. notice Chapter 9:1.. the word breathing.. Paul was fanatical. To keep this short.. what did Christ say to Paul... why kick you against the goads. What goads? What was goading Paul?... Stephens death.
  Paul went to Damascus to stop the spread of Christianity in that area.
  
  Acts 26:12 if you read the following verses Paul is talking about when he was a pharisee. He is talking about his persecution of the saints.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _________________________
  
  I will respond to your statements in different posts due to the length of them.
  
  Yes, circumcision is OT (to me Torah) but it is also new testament.
  
  The testaments means covenants which are agreements that both parties have to uphold or neither has to.
  For example, If God has a covenant of circumcision with the Jews, the only thing that could break that covenant is if the Jews never circumcised the men and children. Doing anything else wrong would not break that agreement.
  
  Circumcision was even more than a covenant, it was a representation of Gods promise to 1. Make Abram the Father of many nations. 2.Be his God and the God of his children and all the generations to come. 3. Make his covenant with them everlasting (unending) He made a covenant to never end his covenants. Who do you believe, God or Paul?
  
  God made many covenants, but the new covenants never replaced the old ones.
  And the law and the covenants are not the same thing. A covenant is not a law.
  
  Genesis 17:10-14
  10. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
  11.And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
  12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
  13. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
  14. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
  
  God said if he spoke something he would do it.
  
  Numbers 23:19
  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
  
  Because Paul made a big deal about circumcision, the Apostles said they would not burden the Gentiles with it. But the Jews has an agreement that is everlasting, and was never released from the covenant.
  
  The Apostles dismissed the need for the Gentiles to be circumcised as Moses did about divorce. It was not what was supposed to be.
  God chose Peter to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, but Paul took over that position.
  
  Then the Apostles and all the Elders heard that Paul was persuading the new Jewish christians that they didn't need to be circumcised. That they (Jews) nor the Gentiles had to keep the law.
  
  When Paul returned to Jerusalem, the Elders confronted Paul about ti.
  The Elders thought that it was a rumor and they told Paul that many were looking for him, and that he should shave his head and purify himself so the people would know that he himself kept the law.
  The Elders said that they never told the Gentiles to do this (All the laws about shaving the head and purifying themselves, were Levitical rules, not the laws of Moses). They weren't important to salvation. They were codes of conduct that God had instructed the Levitical Priests and their Tribe to do.
  
  Read Acts 21.
  
  The Elders said, all they did was write about the four laws and sent them to the Gentiles and gave them no other instructions.
  The apostles in Acts 15 said they didn't need to tell the Gentiles about Moses law because it had been preached everywhere for a long time. (in other words, the Gentiles should have known the laws by now)
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  nice post
  and forever here we shall always bump heads.
  
  Peter talking (starts in verse 7)
  Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
  Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
  
  Peter completely supports Pauls doctrine of grace and faith and having been given the keys of the kingdom by Jesus, Peter can 'bind and loose', in the case of circumcision and the law he chose not to bind.
  In the case of logistics, i have to agree that if a person have a circumcision and follow not the ways of God the circumcision profits nothing and vice versa.
  
  Good points to ponder...
  The script on this page is broken, it took forever to find this post as big as it is.
  I like what Paul says and i agree with him.
  I like what you said.
  I feel we must agree to disagree.
  
  Shalom
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _________
  I'm not Brenda, I'm Deborah
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ooops
  didnt notice
  sorry bout that
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You concede my point then. You find knowledge to be the enemy. I find that sad from my point of view, but you have the right to reject the advances in human achievement over the last three hundred years. You'll be left behind, but that's a choice. In the meantime, you will use the spoils of man's amazing intellectual achievements every moment of every day. You will use electronics, drive cars, take medicines and so on, all thanks to the wonderous achievements of men's minds, and only choose to reject the achievements of scholars when they inconvenience you in regards to cherished beliefs you can not defend with the same kind of certainty.
  Let me summarize your point of view.
  Smart people suck.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am flabbergasted!!!!
  You truly can't read! Perhaps you deliberately don't understand what you are reading.
  I took you for an above average intelligent guy.
  
  For the third and final time!
  I am NOT against learning, or knowledge!
  
  However, to put it into (the original) context, if knowledge and learning takes you away from God, THEN, it becomes the enemy (of your soul).
  Jesus' own words..."what does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but looses his own soul?"
  
  To answer another of your (mis)quotes, we are not told to love God with our mind (alone). We are told (commanded, actually) to love the Lord with ALL our hearts, soul, mind and strength. (emphasis mine)
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Haha. You should be expecting it...
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think I read on one of his hubs that he's a journalist. Has given lectures to thousands, yet can't read my post in context!
  What else am I to think?
  
  I certainly didn't expect that.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is no knowledge or learning one can gain from believing in the invisible, hence you are against learning and knowledge of that which is visible; reality. Hence, learning anything about reality is an enemy to be avoided.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can believe that if you like.
  I'm always learning new things about the visible AND the invisible.
  
  Just because I believe in Jesus, does not prevent me from learning.
  I just choose what I let in a lot more carefully .
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need to believe in your contradictions when you make them plain as the day is long for all to see.
  
  Exactly.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Many Jews followed him, so where do you get your info.
  The Jews were the first to follow him. It was a long time before any Gentiles did.
  Scripture speaks many times of the mind and knowledge
  According to scripture, wisdom and knowledge are the best attributes
  
  Study
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Thanks The Bruce.Your opinion is noted and respected.
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
cags, you directly contradict yourself. Why would the religious leaders that put Jesus to death distort the works of the Bible to enhance his life? Maybe you speak in circles from reading too much literature.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's not about enhancing his life, but is about controlling people in general.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Bull fluff.
  The bible was written by, oh.. jesus disciples and before that Gods chosen people, moses and the prophets. But you just wanna talk new testament.
  
  written by jesus disciples. Translated by linguists, finish copy by bishops. The book were so altered that the roman catholics did not want anybody to own their own copy. Until luther read the bible and posted his famous papers to the vatican door nobody was allowed to read the documents that you claim were written to control the masses. hmmm. Quite the point you overlooked.
  And then when people became aware of the bibles contents, different denominations began. So much for control.
  Today do you still say that religion is used to control the masses or does your comment pertain to 40 or so decades ago?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
No Brenda, I've already explained that scripture was manipulated and out of context for the most part, due to language's inability to have available words.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So....all of those several passages that state the part about loving our neighbor were ... manipulated and out of context?
  Highly unlikely. A concept that's that important would've been, in one of the Books/Chapters, more firmly spelled out, would've come right out and said "Thou must love thyself" or something similar, I'm pretty sure.
  
  There is one that adds more to it, but it's telling us to Love God, not ourselves!
  
  Luke 10: 27:
  
  "And he answering said, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.'"
  
  In that one, Loving God definitely comes first!
  
  I can't find anywhere that tells me to love myself! I'm in quite a quandry here! I do hope some really well-educated, schooled, person, maybe a Harvard grad or something, will come by and enlighten me on the Scripture's commandments about how I should love myself first before I can love anyone else....
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not to poke the bear...But you have shown where you are to love yourself....
  
  -me (thy neighbor as THYSELF)
  
  -me How can you love your neighbor like yourself...If you don't love yourself? If you don't love yourself...you are not going to love someone else...
  
  It is one of those things of, you cannot share what you yourself do not possess...
  
  Just my thoughts...
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you yet again DS.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________________________
  That is just common sense.
  
  You are told to love your neighbor as yourself. So, if you hate yourself than you hate your neighbor which breaks the commandment.
  
  God did not say to love your neighbor more than you love yourself.
  
  If you can't understand this, no wonder you believe the way you do.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The NT Greek was at least as sophisticated (and more so, imo) as English. It was extremely clear what was written is what was meant. I think we have more trouble today describing things than they did then.
  One often used example is the word LOVE (seemingly important in this thread). In the Greek, they had four words for different applications, as appropriate to the message. We have, umm...ONE!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But I have no problem understanding the difference between Godly Love and human love and romantic love, etc.
  The context of Bible passages make those clear, even if the word "love" is used for all of them.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't doubt it, Brenda.
  My post was for Cagsil, seeing as his argument stands on mistranslations etc.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see, I think.
  ha.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice post aka-dj
  cagsils information is truly for those who know nothing, those are his only targets, easy prey for such ridiculous statements as he comes up with. Clearly his interpretations are his and his alone. I think his imagination would best be used in childrens literature. Obviously he has never heard of the interlinear both hebrew and greek and clearly has never opened a strongs concordance.
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
Let's see....

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

No, that's not it.
That's a desire to BE loved, a basic human need.....plus a command to Love others.

Drat it! Where are those Scriptures??
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Psychology and the understanding of psychosis was not known to the primitive people of the bronze age Brenda, they did not understand anything of that nature.
  A lot like many of today's religionists who don't understand it either.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, earnestshub, but I'm finding it hard to take what you say seriously, after seeing that one thread you posted recently; I'm afraid you might ask me in the middle of a serious discussion to call you earnestine or something.....and that's not on my agenda. haha
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was called humor Brenda, I know Australian humor is a bit different, and that's the best I could do.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know what they understood. There are 4 words describing love.
  we have one. It seems to me that a society that has 4 words describing one thing has the definitions thing goin on.
  As for love to another person.. or being nice... or treating people fairly. Are you earnest saying that they did NOT understand this concept? Or is this your special type of humor again?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, how does he know?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
For those who took offense at this post, I did not wish to elevate myself or any other believer in Christ as being above all others.
My only intent was to defend the position of the believer.I wish to state that Jesus said He was the way to eternal life and that there was no other way but through Him.He made that statement,not me.That is the foundation of our belief.He said He was God and we believe He was...period.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OP is copied below.
  
  How can you say your intent was defending the position of the believer when you said "We only can hope for everyone else"?
  
  That was an offensive statement as opposed to defensive. You placed yourself above "everyone else" in comparison to "Those of us that believe"
  
  Coupled with that, you decided to shirk responsibility for your OP by claiming that your god made the statement, not you. All that evidence being entirely contrary to your intent and of defending the position of the believer.
  
  Can you not see how all of that is unethical behavior supported with atrocious behavior?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker, Excellent post.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  Actually it is you saying that. not Yahshua.
  Every statement every word he spoke, he was speaking of God. He was not speaking of Himself.
  Why is this so hard to see?
  
  John 12:49
  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
  
  John 7:17
  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
  
  John 8:28
  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
  
  John 14:10
  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  
  What is it about these statements the Christians cannot understand?
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
And again to address the constant accusation of indoctrination,all humans have the ability to believe and reason.Individuals evaluate the truths as they see them and make their choices.No brain washing.Just simple reasoning.We follow what we see as truth, the same as you all do.We are no more manipulated than any of you are.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Untrue.
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Cags, you must be several hundred years old to have gained so much more knowledge and wisdom than the average person.I thought only God had those attributes.Thank you for setting the rest of us ignorgant,unlearned believers straight.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker...I can't answer for all...But for me...I don't think you( or anyone) are (is) ignorant or unlearned...I simply wonder if you are getting the full benefits from your beliefs and what is written in the bible...If you feel that you are...then that is great...Some of us, are only pointing out things in a different light, that may or may not allow you to see something differently than you previous thought. And it could be consider a good or bad view/light depending on your personal beliefs.
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Well thank you D.S. I do appreciate your much more mellow tone and I will seek as is my namesake to gain and understand others views and as certainly none of us have all the answers.We can surely stand to be a little more patient and kind, so that we may be enriched by our fellow human being.
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
No, he was not executed for any crime. The Priests were afraid of him and they asked many to falsely accuse him.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Being in the will of God AND reading about what the will of God IS and trying to get there.... Is two different things

Both are good. But different.

reading about what the will of God is ... then trying to do it .... beating ourselves up cause we can not do what we think it is ! is not the will of God.

God doesn't want to sit on the end of our noses, blocking our vision of all that is in this life to see and experience.

Enjoying life is not evil, but is a bad thing when we steel someone elses joy in order to over indulge ourselves..

Something like that anyway.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And who did you direct this to?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Any one who cared to hear "Just another opinion"
  
  I often speak to the wind .... for anyone to hear.
  
  If no one hears or agrees ? OH Well that is the way that it goes.
  
  No! it had no barbs intended for you or anyone else.
  
  I apologize for not being more clear.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  Jerami, I just asked. No problem.
  If I offended you I'm sorry.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not to worry when it comes to being offended ....
  I got aligator skin .... got it the hard way.
  
  but under the surface .... soft as a babys butt
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independentwriterposted 14 years ago
Here is a question for everyone to consider, if the bible is so full of inaccuracies, half-truth, and distortions, then why is the bible one of the only books that has survived thousands of years?
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religious indoctrination. Once indoctrinated into the belief that the bible is the true word of god, one will keep the book alive their whole lives and pass the beliefs down to their children, and their children and so on... over generations, centuries.
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  independentwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is one possibility. I think that if Christianity was a farce, I think it would have died out a long time ago. Historically, I don't think that it would have made it past the first century. Nero and many of the other Roman leaders were persecuting Christians and killing them. I don't know of anyone who would die for a lie.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religions don't die out unless the cycle of indoctrination is broken. As well, Christianity has a requirement for evangelism.
  
  Possibly, but many will kill and die if they have been indoctrinated into believing a lie is an absolute truth.
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qwarkposted 14 years ago
Where is "Seeker" in all this?
I wanna know what this is all about.
He/she has to clarify the "title" for me.
I can't figure out what hubbers are responding too.
"Faithful to our beliefs" is so vague.
Seeker, where art thou!
Qwark
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Qwark, I have been taking care of personal matters.Sorry to being away without much imput.In being faithful to our beliefs,those of us that believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of mankind truly believe that principle.We believe He was God in the flesh.We believe He led a sinless life.We believe He was sent from God the Father to die for the sins of the world.We believe He gave Himself freely,out of love,which by the way is all He taught.To love God first,which He cofessed He was equal with,to love our neighbor and we all fall short on that,as we would love ourselves.As I stated before, we are not indoctrinated,but we have had a personal experience with God and we are able to communicate with Him through prayer and fellowship of His Holy Spirit.Thousands have died throughout the ages because of this belief and maybe one day some of us believers will.Many still do in the world today.Thousands will not march to death for something they do not know is true.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I expected such beelzedad. Why don`t you end your name with bub? It suits better.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because, I AM his dad.
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is only one I AM and you are not Him.But one day you will meet Him.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  TY Seeker:
  Ok.
  So when you are faithful to your beliefs, you are referring to your beliefs in an imagined god thing.
  I see.
  I also asked if English is your native language. Is it?
  May I ask how much "formal" education you've had? Your answer may influence my response. TY
  Qwark
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes,English is my primary language and ,I have an associates degree in applied science.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  TY Seeker:
  Yes, your answer does affect my response to you in ref to the title of this thread: "Faithful To Our Beliefs."
  Concerns:
  1. You refer to yourself as a "Seeker of truths."
  Your native language is English so I can assume that as a 2 yr college man you have an adequate command of the language and of vocabulary.
  The English definition of "truth" is: "Reality; actuality." How can you relate what you "imagine" to be: this "god thing" that you believe in, to the definition of "truth" as it relates to your hub name?
  
  2."Faith."
  There are 2 connotations relating to the definition of that word: One connotation is related to "faith" based upon empirical proof. Ex: I have "faith" that the sun will rise from the East and set in the West.
  The other is is "religious faith" which has its foundation in the definition of "hope." Hope, defined is: "To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment."
  Why would you guide your life on that which you can only hope for?
  Pls try to respond to these concerns in other than "opinion."
  If you cannot do this, what reason would there be for your faith in your beliefs to be considered to be "credible" or based upon "truths," by another educated man?
  If you can offer only "opinion," based upon "hope," as a response, you have satisfied my need to understand you.
  There will be no more questions from me.
  TY again.
  Qwark
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But have had no compunction in marching non believers to their deaths!
  Your religion is responsible for death not life.
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  thebrucebeatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're right that people will not march to their death for something they don't know is true, but people have marched to their death for all kinds of disparate ideas, beliefs and faiths. By your reckoning, they are all correct, so without realizing it you are making the case for all faiths being true. People have died for Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Krishna, and so on. They have died for capitalism and socialism, democracy and fascism. People have willingly died for all kinds of irreconcialable concepts.
  If this is evidence that their faith is genuine, you are a defender of universalism.
  Perhaps you are correct, or perhaps you are the one who is deceived. Any ideas as to how you would know?
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years ago
Qwark, you ask me if I could only offer you an opinion based on hope. I can offer you an emperical opinion based upon your belief in truth.
I went to your hubsite and by no means concider you a misfit.I think , because of your use of words,your quest for answers,your apparent and abvious intellect, you,like I, am a seeker.
Those of us beyond the norm generally seek. I have always sought for the answers beyond.Do I think this is all there is,No?
Do I believe in other worlds and civilizations,Yes? Do I think that the whole cosmos developed from nothing,No? Do I wonder my purpose,Yes?
Qwark, our definitions of life and reality are based upon our reasoning.Based upon our miniscule thoughts of who we are and how we all got here. Maybe we`re only a grain of sand in the ocean.Could be so.
Many base beliefs on empirical proofs.
Qwark, there are no difinitive answers that one can see or touch.We all base our lives on what percieve as truth.
You ask me ,do I guide my life in an unseen direction of hope in a God? Yes I do. Do you not invest your retirement money in hopes of a windfall,yes you do?
Through a life of research I have seen that nothing just happens to happen.Everything has to have provocation and initiation. Can I prove such to you,No? But according to the beliefs and definitions of man and I quote"Emperical evidence is evidence of consequences that are seen or felt by the senses. Also knowledge in philosophy which adheres to the principle that knowledge comes from experience specifically using the senses.This is the human interpretation of emperical and I can assuredly tell you I have sensed and continue to sense the presence of God Who is always then, now, and forever Almighty. I probably dissapointed you in my response but please do write again.I would love to confer with you.
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wherefore art thou Qwark? Wouldest thou be indisposed? Awaiting to correspond.TY. S.O.T.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Seeker:
  
  Sorry about the lag in time here for a response.
  
  I was not notified that you had responded.
  
  "Qwark, you ask me if I could only offer you an opinion based on hope. I can offer you an emperical opinion based upon your belief in truth.
  
  Seeker, I didn't ask for an "opinion." I asked for a response other than opinion based on "hope" alone.
  
  As a response, you gave me what I didn't want and have satisfied my need to understand you.
  
  You offered EXACTLY what I expected and I appreciate that.
  
  I understand PERFECTLY where you are coming from and what you have to offer in response.
  
  You are a believer in that which can only be imagined and, simply, exists as an abstract concept.
  
  I have nothing more to ponder in ref. to the basis for your forum title: "Faithful To Our Beliefs."
  
  You answered it for me completely and concisely.
  
  Thank you.
  
  Qwark
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What evidence do you seek?
  It seems ( God, if He exists, according to you) MUST satisfy your very narrow criteria.
  I would suggest asking Him directly, rather than wasting time & effort with (us) believers. It,s obvious anything and everything we say can so easily be dismissed as mere opinion.
  TY
  DJ.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aka:
  I've never asked for evidence!
  How did you come up with that impression?
  Evidence of what?
  Opinion based upon hope alone doesn't interest me. It is purposeless chat.
  Thanks for the response.
  Qwark
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please reply again, as I would love to speak with you on a personal basis.I do not meet many like you.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker, TY for the invite, but I'm quite satisfied with the result of our short chat.
  
  There is nothing else to discuss.
  
  At least nothing that interests me.
  
  Enjoy life!
  
  Qwark
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Same to you friend.I hope you find your answers as I have.Bless you in your endeavors.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker:
  TY :
  Again you misinterpret my message and intent.
  I NEVER ask for "proofs."
  To ask for "proofs" in ref to your beliefs would be folly.
  To discuss that which exists only in the imagination of infant man, with the intent of making a credible point, would be an exercise in futility.
  Nothing can be gained.
  Qwark
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So clarify my friend, what may I answer for you that you apparently feel that you already know or have pre-suppositioned? And just for the sake of clearing the slate,would you care to state your educational qualifications and life long employment status? Space,science,Nasa...,my former employer.Would you care to enlighten me or remain disdainful,I suppose of my great lacking of your impeccable qualifications. As you may detect,I have felt slighted by your response. Hope to hear a reasonable response. Ty
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seeker:
  No clarification necessary.
  My formal education exceeds yours by many yrs and Degrees.
  I'm sorry you feel slighted.
  You have satisfied my curiosity.
  Nothing more need be considered.
  I think this response is quite reasonable.
  Have a happy, safe holiday...:
  Goodnight.
  Qwark
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  SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Qwark, I apparently mis -interpreted your answer. I did not ask for a response on hope,you did. My response is on your so called empirical belief that is supposed to enrich the world . I offered you your belief in accordance with the beliefs of mankind.I gave you solid proof according to the beliefs of man kind that there is or could possibly be a God.
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Uirikposted 14 years ago
Guess what? There is actually nothing to be saved from?
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Druid Dude wrote:
What makes you think the goatherders were hateful?
= - = -

getitrite wrote
Maybe they were sentencing, gays, fornicators, and people who worked on the sabbath to death, out of pure LOVE.

= - = -

Me thinks ... that a FEW of them goat herders might have wanted to get rid of their neighbor and used "THE LAW" to do it with. Yep a FEW of them goat herders didn't quite understand what "The Law" was really supposed to be about.
They were hateful.
==========================================
=========================================

Druid Dude wrote:
Remember, Alexander wasn't exactly conquering w/ kindness. Rome subjugated all they come in contact with. They didn't do it w/ candy. This can be said of any civilization. Our own time has been bloody with it's share of atrocities. That fact al;one should make you feel like the pot calling the kettle black.
= - = -
getitrite wrote
No I don't feel like the pot calling the kettle black, but I do feel like this has nothing to do with the point in question.

= - = -

ME thinks ....Typical ziz zag around a question.
Of course the pot is calling the kettle black.

================================
===============================

Some people focus ALL of their attention on the faults that they see out there in the world and all the time theirs own are unchecked.
We have all found ourselves in that predicument.
Some of us get over it and some of us get confortable in our recliner thinking all too highly of themselves.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami,
  
  I think you did not understand the exchange between druid dude and myself.
  
  I can't see where the 'pot calling the kettle black' was relevant at all. Could you show me how this would be relevant, since you stated that this is precisely what you see as well?
  
  Here is my original statement:
  
  Yeah, God is ultimately concerned about the sex lives of an insignificant primate. This is nothing but the hang-ups from profoundly ignorant, and hateful, goat herders.
  
  This is why I said druid was irrelevant, because he created a strawman, and responded to the strawman, then you came into the conversation, and responded to his strawman.
  
  Maybe you were just not focused.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Hubpages can do without homophobia and hate speech.

Are the religious going to prove that they will go along with this by not coming out straight away and clearly rejecting this doctrine.

Or is this the most gutless group of believers I have seen in my life?

Any of the religiously inclined who do not condemn the previous hateful homophobic nonsense should feel shame, deep shame for the intolerance and prejudice expressed here.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Any religious individual worth his/her salt (especially one who calls him/herself Christian) should immediately and passionately condemn the actions of both Westboro Baptist Church and everyone else who performs hateful actions or speaks hateful words to/about homosexuals. Regardless of your personal interpretation of Scripture, John 3:16 is pretty clear about God loving THE WORLD - not just the straight people in it.
  
  Just my take on it. And, the religious fundies who choose to disagree with me on that are sadly in the majority. Doesn't make them bad (though their behavior certainly IS) but it does make them WRONG.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'd be happy to put my two cents worth in, but I don't know what post you're talking about.
  
  It is sad. By all indications Paul, himself, was a homosexual struggling to deal with it within the confines of his religion. His rants are so unbalanced as to wonder why he was even considered worthy of being taken seriously on the subject.
  
  Jesus never once broached the subject. I always assumed his silence on the issue meant it was not something he considered wrong.
  
  Ignorance is sad, but luckily the ignorant religious are little more than an embarrassing minority that is slowly dying out in this country. They know it. That's why they're screaming so loudly.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest was speaking in regard to an exchange of posts between between proudlib and brotheryocanan on page 15, jc.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's what I thought. I don't respond to brothryochanon much anymore. That's a hard hard stand that will never see the light of reason.
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  proudlibposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate all of the wise comments concerning so-called "Christians." And JC, thank you for responding so succinctly and proudly to our prolific vomiter of piety. I was just thinking that it would be wise to ignore brotheryochanon. I read his stuff and I am dizzy with the grammatical errors, misspellings, non sequiturs, malapropisms, "Acquisition" for "Inquisition", "volition" for "vehemence" (I think), and logic as twisted as his mind. Sarah Palin couldn't do a better job of spewing nonsense, butchering the language and defying logic at the same time.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But can he speak in tongues? I still wanna see Pailin do that, maybe with Hinn and on stage.
  Or if elected she could talk in tongues to the UN. I'd pay to see either!
  I expected a bit more support from the religionists on JC's other thread. about abuse.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't normally respond to his posts anymore, however I found this exchange too disgusting not to comment on. We all judge others. It is human nature, but claiming divine rights to condemn another human being is beyond anything I will ignore when the post is brought to light by another poster. Some, who cannot think a decent thought on their own, need to be corralled for their own good.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks JC, I hoped you would ad to the discussion.
  I think the following is interesting, especially the last sentence in my case, as I know a hundred refutations of that bit.
  
  [A. Johnson et aI., Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1994) ch. 7]). In our quest to understand and embody scriptural holiness we must be evenhanded in our application of Scripture with the full conviction that the moral change Christ brings affects all people alike: “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, those who practice homosexuality, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers” (1 Cor 6:9-10). These things we were, but baptism into Christ yields a cleansing and conversion through the power of the Spirit to live in holy obedience to God (1 Cor 6:11).
  
  By Brian J. Dodd, Ph.D., John Wesley Fellow and UM Elder in the California-Nevada Annual Conference.
  
  I can point to a lot of material about Paul's homosexuality, and even more that deny it.
  Lots of opinion out there, some of it is pretty well supported, some is not, but it was certainly noticed! Lots of smoke, so I reckon either he was very misunderstood or he was another Elton John.
  
  By the way, did you see the cute picture of Elton burping his baby? I think he will be a great dad.
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure I follow your comments. You can't find the words of Jesus, except in the gospels. Whatever comes after, in any of the books would be interpretation, not his words. Interpretation exists, even in the gospels; so I'd need proof he said it before I'd think less of him.
  
  And no, I didn't see the picture of Elton. I'm sure he will make a wonderful parent.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I probably rambled.
  I was indicating that others have opinions on the subject that agree with your conclusion that it is likely Paul was homosexual, and that the words of Christ were not condemning of homosexuality as in the OT.
  Elton cut the umbilical cord.
  
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  just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, glad I missed that picture then.
  
  Yes, there's a lot of speculation all the way around on pretty much everything in the Bible. That's one reason, even when I associated with christianity that I couldn't understand why anyone thought it was appropriate to use scriptures to be hateful to any group. Even if they thought God wrote the Bible, how in the world could they know for sure that they were doing the right thing? The whole thing is contradictory on so many points.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would have been just as keen as you to miss a picture like that, but fortunately it was just told in an interview.
  
  Like you I think it would not take much to work out what NOT to say or know what NOT to insist on being taken literally to avoid the hate speeches.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  please to show evidence that paul was a homosexual
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would agree with Ya on this statement BUT ....
  
  If I started condeming "Those" people ? I might get on a roll and not be able to stop it .... Ssoooo I'll pass.
  
  But I guess it should be OK to condem "THEM" condemers.
  
  Sorry , I know what YA mean. But when we start condeming folks ??? how do we know where to draw the line?
  
  Gotta be careful what and how we hate lest we become it!
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I guessed you would be one of those who would defend decency. Thank you.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you as well, earnest. That's kind of you to say.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I wouldn't change a word. The behavior is despicable! No need to be careful when confronted by this sort of abuse.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I wasn't suggesting that you do.
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
brotheryochanan wrote:

Reminder again.. the catholics at the time of the acquisition were not christian by any means. They were a power hungry and control minded people, following the ways of their flesh and the dictates of their era and certainly not the "love your neighbor as thyself" which jesus taught.

* ______________________________*

Catholics believe that their Church was started by Yahshua (Jesus Christ to you and them) Their church started after the death of Yahshua while the Apostles were still around.

If you read Paul's writings, he said different things to different groups (churches) He caused the separation. That's why there are so many churches that say they are Christian.
The Greek Orthodox are Christians and so are the Catholics.

Yahshua didn't start their religion: Paul did

Yahshua said to call no man "Father"
Matthew 23:9
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven?

But Paul, going against Yahshua's teachings, taught that the Elders were to be entreated as Fathers.

1 Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father ; and the younger men as brethren;

The Catholics do.

And what about the Christians control? They teach that If you don't do as they say, you'll go to hell.

If a Christian does something, they claim they got forgiveness even if they continue as they are.
But they believe others have to completely stop what they do or God will never accept them
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And if we realy pay atention to what every one is saying;
  we find that everyone is a little bit correct in our beliefs.
  
  Is a little bit enough ?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________________
  No, it isn't
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AS a father and calling a man father are two different contexts.
  Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
  father is the word pat-ayr which means, father, parent.
  So to treat an elder as a parent is absolutely fine.
  
  And yet the catholics call their priests, father, on purpose!
  Go figure. I call my priest, pastor. hmmm again.
  
  Hell is a catholic control.... christianity still hasnt see through it yet, but there are those who have.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  
  I have been around Greeks all my life. My nieces and nephews are part Greek.
  
  Greek children call their moms Ma ma and their dads Ba ba
  
  Regardless, Paul and the Elders weren't the peoples parents.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  regardless to treat people AS parents is not to MAKE them parents. This one simple word seems to throw you off.
  IF i treat you AS a lawyer that does not mean you ARE a lawyer.
  The elders were to be treated with honor and respect. This is how both parents are to be treated and that includes fathers.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  Small word meanings and the Bible doesn't throw me off in any way. I speak Hebrew and Greek. I have studied the Scriptures earnestly since I was 14.
  
  You believe what you wish.
  That is a minor thing Paul did. Move on.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Paul never did anything wrong.
  Paul is the 12th disciple
  You cannot see that?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Matthis is the 12th Apostle.
  
  Peter gave a list of what is needed to be an Apostle
  
  Acts 1:26
  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles (among the 11 making him the twelfth)
  
  Paul was a ravening wolf/ After he was suppose to be converted. He condoned murdering
  
  To be an Apostle
  "PETER said...therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN until THE DAY HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US --one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
  (Acts 1:21,22) In other words, in order to be an apostle you would have had to have been a disciple first! and you had to be with him until the resurrection.
  25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
  
  Now I know you know more about it than Paul. But..
  Are you sure you are reading the Bible?
  
  If you can't see this..your not of God
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  See how we shall bump heads.... The Ananias mission (acts 9:10) needs to be dismissed entirely and i am not willing to do that.
  Acts 9:15 For Paul is a chosen vessel unto me to bear my name before the Gentiles...
  Peter cast lots, God stopped Paul dead in his tracks.
  I'll go with God on this one. Peter was often, overzealous.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________________________
  So in Acts 10 where God (Holy Ghost) tells Peter (one of Yahshua's chosen Apostles) To go to the Gentiles (He speaks of it again in Acts 15) Because he is the Apostle to the Gentiles, means nothing to you, although He was approved and chosen by Yahshua to be his Apostle?
  Cornelius was converted and received the Holy Ghost and God confirmed with him that Peter was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
  God always had two or three witnesses.
  
  But you believe Paul, a persecutor and murderer, who said he was chosen by Jesus to be the Apostle to the Gentiles (without any witnesses)
  Paul said nasty things about Yahshua and the Apostles. Admitted he deceived people but it was OK as long as it brought glory to God.
  Said if anyone in the church fornicated he was to be killed.
  Taught against what Yahshua taught...well this is who you choose to believe?!
  
  Yahshua said if another come in his own name, him you would believe.
  
  Peter and the Apostles did not want to choose the 12th Apostle so they prayed and asked God to let the lot fall on the one God chose, and it fell on Matthew. This wasn't just Peter, it was all of the Apostles.
  Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew.
  
  How is it you think you are allowed to pick and choose?
  
  Many people used lots which is not wrong. Divination doesn't mean seeing the future either. The meanings have been changed.
  
  Moses, the other prophets, and the High Priests used Urim and Thummim for answers from God
  
  You need to reread Pauls letters.
  
  Paul was at Epheeus more than anywhere else trying to convert them to his religion, but they threw him out and all of Paul's disciples left him..Paul admits all of this.
  Paul is the False Apostle that was spoken about in
  
  Revelation 2:1-3
  
  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
  
  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
  
  You do realize that the Gospel of Luke and second half of Acts were written by Paul's good friend Luke?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We will always bump heads.
  
  discussion finished
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______________
  Oh that tears me apart..Not
  
  If you are closed minded go ahead believe and worship who you want.
  
  Most Christians like Paul's doctrine because it allows them
  salvation with no work or effort involved and they can sin all they want
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is an untrue statement. By reading what you write, it is obvious that you know very little about being a Christian. You deny God the power it takes to change a man into something He can use. Then you deny the one who was changed.
  
  Look back at the history of Israel. How many times were they taken into captivity? Then look and see how many times God not only allowed it but ordained it because of the sinfulness and idol worship of Israel.
  
  But Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Old Testament grace and New Testament grace is the same grace because God never changes.
  
  If you want to live in Old Testament times by all means do it. If you want to bash those who follow afer Jesus and are changed by the grace and mercy of God, you will get a lot of resistance.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  I am not and would not bash those who follow Yahshua (Jesus to you)
  I would and do bash those who put any other persons or any other doctrine over Yahshua's
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So much for religious agreement.
  
  My god can beat up your god.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and MATTHEW, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
  Matthew, the writer of the gospel of Matthew, is already numbered among them.
  Matthias is a different person, since the writer of Matthew, the taxcollector guy is already numbered among them.
  Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican (tax collector); James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
  Matthias was never heard of again.
  
  The urim and thummin were the sardonyx stones on the priests apparel which glowed when God was among them, or rather the right side stone did glow marvelously so. It was an indicator at times of battle, if God was among them. These stones were not to be consulted with oracular speech or incantations or anything. They were merely to be looked at.
  The casting of lots or dice as i like to say, is a man made version of getting answers from God. Not very reliable.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  Another bit of deception to muddy the waters of so simple a Word of Truth.
  
  The definition of Father is irrelevant. The commandment of Yahshua is:
  
  Matt. 23 [9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
  
  The reason is given: the children of God the Father have only one father. We have none other. He is in heaven, not on the earth.
  
  If we call anyone on earth "Father" for whatever reason or by whatever definition, we disobey God. Contradicting this, Paul (a man on the earth) was teaching his disciples that he was their father, so that they might call him such.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am sure that Jesus was not warning of us impending doom for calling our dads, father, which i do not, dad is dad.
  I still disagree that Paul taught this way. The problem is probably in the translation, father should have been parent in 1 timothy.
  If i treat my cat AS a human it does not make him a human, it just means i doted over him wayyyy to much.
  in the parable Jesus does get his point across as how to appreciate God and i am sure this is the point. Pauls point is that we are to honor and respect the elders as parents.
  Not so muddy after all.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ____________
  I am fluent in Greek and Hebrew. I don't need a translation.
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Me too!
  
  Except the Hebrew part....
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______
  Let's start a Greek thread sometime
  
  yia sou
  
  Ti Kanis
  ti ine to onoma to thiko sou?
  
  efkharistó
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't do that!
  
  You're cute, but I am a married man!
  
  Plus, I am not as flexible since the accident
  
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ____________
  
  Haha Really funny
  
  Folks he 's playing!!
  
  I'm glad my husband speaks Greek, because he looks at these forums
  
  Cute? Is that it, cute?
  
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________________
  Do you live in Greece?
  
  Guess what, today is my birthday
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Happy Birthday!
  
  No.. never lived in Greece.... way too many Greeks there
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  Thank you for the BD wish.
  
  Hey, you are funny.
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
Why is it that those who "KNOW" nothing about a subject are the most verbal about it?

No one "KNOWS" anything about this jesus fellow, yet some speak so eloquently about "it" as if they do.

I remember when I was about 4 - 5 yrs old talking to the other kids about Santa as if I "KNEW." him.

When I gained a little more MATURITY, I realized the reason for and the purpose of the myth and got on with life in the real world.

Do the people who speak so eloquently and "KNOWINGLY' about this jesus just never mature intellectually?

It seems that they exist in a kind've dream world of gods, demons, souls, spirits and ghostly entities et al. Kind've a Harry Potter world.

When I was a kid, I'da called 'em weirdos.

Today? I just stay quiet but keep one eye on 'em! Know what I mean?

Wink, wink...:

Qwark
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ummm.... the bible is all about christ. This is why God made a book, so we can know about .... well..... God, his ways and our ways in Him.
  If you don't think the bible reveals stuff about christ and God well you should stay quiet
  
  Wink... wink
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________________
  The bible is all about God
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 13 years ago
Qwark,after our last exchange,I would only think you should hush. We`re obviously not worthy of your intellectual prowess.
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Deborah Sextonposted 13 years ago
Godhead means the complete power of the Holy Ghost and God in the flesh means the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It had never been given that way before.

Yahshua in his flesh had the fullness of the power of the holy spirit. (The most flesh could contain)

Godhead does not mean trinity
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Deborah Sextonposted 13 years ago
Apostle means one who is sent out.
They had to be Disciples (students of Yahshua)
Before they became Apostles (who was sent out)

Paul was never a Student of Yahshua. He was too busy murdering the many followers of Yahshua
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
The Bible teaches us trust in God rather than to lean not unto our own understanding ,so I prefer to have faith in God -more so than 'beliefs'
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I almost missed your birthday.
Happy birthday Deborah, you don't look 21 yet!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____
  Oh thank you Earnest.
  I'm not too old it's just that I was Two (2) years old when my son was born.
  
  You are the only one that knows my true age.
  
  Love you
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How is the little man? Is he trying to take over the world yet? He is the right age for that now.
  
  I hope you have a wonderful day! All my love and best wishes.
  Ern.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________
  He's becoming a man. He's handsome and smart and a kind person.
  Thank you for asking.
  Thank you for your wishes Earnest.
  reply report

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Amazon Web Services	This is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
Cloudflare	This is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted Libraries	Javascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)

Features
Google Custom Search	This is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google Maps	Some articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google Charts	This is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host API	This service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTube	Some articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Vimeo	Some articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Paypal	This is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Login	You can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Maven	This supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)

Marketing
Google AdSense	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClick	Google provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index Exchange	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Sovrn	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Ads	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad Marketplace	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexus	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Openx	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon Project	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLift	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say Media	We partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing Pixels	We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking Pixels	We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.

Statistics
Author Google Analytics	This is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
Comscore	ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking Pixel	Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
Clicksco	This is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)

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