Is Jesus divine or only human?
What do you people believe about Jesus? This question is perhaps the most crucial decision that a person can make, believing in and deciding to follow Jesus--or not. During the first 16 years of my life, I attended church with my mom, sang in the junior choir until my voice changed, and went through confirmation class--all as a good-boy hypocrite. When our pastor asked me before confirmation whether I believed in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, a teaching that I don't remember being preached in our church, I said, "Yes" but didn't mean it.
However, when I was 16, we attended another church, where they preached that God inspired the Bible, Jesus is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and God is 3 persons in one God. The short story is that God convinced me of the truth of those teachings. He changed my life by making me eager to go to church to learn about him and also to help my mother in the garden, an activity that I had previously hated. In short, he changed me from the inside out and is still changing me.
After studying and reading the Bible for 50 years, I have become more and more convinced that Jesus came as the God-man to rescue us from our imperfections, but I am also interested in your beliefs in order to understand people more. I thoroughly enjoy such discussions.
The only limit that I ask of you is that everyone be fully respectful and accepting of other people's opinions and reasoning. After all, the Bible says that God created all of us in his image and likeness (Genesis 1). Therefore, all of us are worthy of respect. Please leave your anger outside when responding to others and me on this hub. Thanks a lot. Bruce_LeiterAt least we know what you think. Odd you cannot see that this is utterly disrespectful of those of us who discard Jesus as the divisive political construct that it is.
But - good to know you respect and have a high opinion of us and accept the premise that there is no such thing as God with such good grace. Hey - you want to believe you will live forever - go right ahead. I am not so scared of death I need to do that.
Whatever makes you feel special is OK with me, but deciding whether or not to believe in Jesus is about the 1000000000000th most important decision a person can make - because it does not exist.
Trust me - deciding which shoe to put on first - left or right - is far more important than this.
After studying the bible for more than 40 years - I am shocked that anyone is so deluded as to still need a bronze age belief in a god. I respect your belief though - if that makes you feel good - go for it.Come on man he posted it in Religion & Beliefs-Christianity-The Bible.
I think Jesus was the son of God, but not God in a mans body.
Matthew 26:39 when Jesus prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
27:45-46 "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"Ediggity, thanks for your response. Apparently, you think that Jesus showed his human imperfection in his requests and therefore was not God? Is that a fair conclusion from your quotes? I believe that God inspired the Bible, which clearly says that Jesus was human in every respect except for sin (Hebrews 4:14-16). So in these questions, I don't believe that Jesus showed flaws. In the Garden of Gethsemane, he expressed a temptation that went through his mind to give up the exceedingly heavy weight of humanity's guilt that he was going to carry to the cross. The same quote says that he submitted to his Father's will for him to go to the cross.
Any one can use the Bible to prove anything. One could quote the Bible to say that there is no God, but the context says, "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1). It's my belief that we interpret, with prayer, Bible texts in the context of the rest of the Bible. It's also my conviction that God interprets his own Book that way.
With his question to his Father on the cross, he quoted Psalm 22 in asking why his Father had allowed his enemies to surround him. That temptation was also overcome by his submission to his Father, "Into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46).the flesh fights with the spirit, even if the flesh has the spirit of God in it
How is describing how and why I came to believe in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible disrespectful of your different beliefs? You can believe what you want; that's fine with me. On the other hand, I would like to know why you disbelieve in the God of the Bible, Jesus as God, and the inspiration of the Bible. You say that such beliefs are bronze age, but that statement implies that humanity is progressing. Though technology is progressing, I believe that the Bible's description of humans' many imperfections remains very true. How do we become perfect to be acceptable to a perfect God (assuming, for a moment, that he exists)? He accepts us only because of Jesus' perfection as we trust in him, not through any effort of ours.
Thanks for responding.You say you have studied the Bible for 40 years, and still feel the way you feel, well, I got news for you you were not studying the Bible, you were reading the Bible, there is a difference. Also I am not afraid of death either, in my case, I will not see death, I have everlasting life through Jesus Christ.
Thanks for you comments, VOICE! I studied the Bible to preach its texts from the beginning to the end, since in every church (seven of them) I began with Genesis and ended with Revelation. I selected the passages and books that would be most appropriate for each congregation. Even before I preached, I was an English teacher who was fascinated by how to interpret literature and the Bible the best way. Even then, I led small groups as I studied the Bible.
The conclusions that I drew from those 40 years of Bible study are that the Bible is indeed from God through those many writers using their varied talents and abilities, that the Author is God, that therefore the whole Bible interprets itself as we find out the meanings of the words and events in the context of the whole Bible, and that people who impose their own meanings on Bible texts without comparing passage with passage are doing a disservice to God and the Bible.
Amen about God's free gift of everlasting life, VOICE! I believe what the Bible says that when I die, only my body dies. My soul goes to meet God but will rejoin my perfected body at the resurrection when Jesus returns. Then, we will live perfectly forever in his presence. I yearn for that day!
The bold is mine. Notice that god had nothing to do with your belief but instead was something you heard from preachers.
If it was a god who taught you, he would have done so in the first church.Thanks for your response, Q. As some churches do, the first church didn't preach the Bible as God's message or Jesus as God or God as three Persons in one God--all mysteries that humans cannot fully comprehend because he's God and we're only his creatures. The second church preached and taught those mysterious truths. Apparently, you don't believe that Jesus is divine. Why?
Jesus was the Messiah spoken of in the earlier prophesy.
I think CS Lewis said it best:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”Matthew 26:39 when Jesus prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
To fulfill God's plan God's will Had to be done and the cup consumed in place of what we all as sinners deserved.... eternal damnation which is seperation from God.
27:45-46 "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
Forsakened because death and the grave had to be conquered and defeated. And your way to God made sure through Christ.
And YES Truely God-Man, Divinely Man-God1 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him.
4 What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men;
5 and light shines in darkness, and darkness could not overpower it.
Jesus-Christ, is the Incarnate Word of God, the Son of God made Flesh, True God and True Man, in whom there is no confusion of the two natures but in whom both the Human and the Divine Wills concur and work together to guide and inspire the Life of the God-Man, the Light come into the world.I am the Eternal, I am the Neter 'Neither with form or appearance" G-d Re, I was the one who created the Word and I am the Word. I am the Aleph and the Tau, the first and the last, the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega, I am the self-existing and the self-begotten, before the 7 heavens and the earth and all that they contain within them, I was, I am and I will be for I issued everything out of me because I had everything within me in the first place to begin with.
I am the Beginning that created and the universal form of Ptah and Ptah in turned created the 7 Heavens and the Earth and from his very essence, intellect and life he then, took out his humanity and placed them in his seventh creation and sbjected them to the laws of emanation, infinite multiplicity and the law of procreation, The Theosophy of Twt-Mos Djoser.
http://www.theosophyoftwtmosdjoser.com
I am the A'aferti of the "Two Horizons" and of the "Two Lands of Kemet" and as the Son of the Neter "Neither with form or appearance" God Re then, I am the only one who is able to bring balance, harmony, tranquility and peace to the earth and to heaven and their children if only they were to be wise and understand the wisdom of the 42 Negative Actions of the wisdom, orderly morality, mercy, loving-kindess, justice and love of Ma'at and Tehuti.
The Theosophy of Twt-Mos Djoser
http://www.theosophyoftwtmosdjoser.com
The last letter (s) of Jesus is Greek, the Semitic Hebrew form is Ieshua or Iehoshua Ben Iose and Christos is not Hebrew, but Greek referring to the Kemetic MeSSeH from which Messiah might be derived from. The term and title of "Son of G-d" was introduced and taught by the Ancient Egyptians, but my Hebrew relatives didn't accept this because according to the Ancient Egyptian's religion of the Aten=Adon=Adonai "The Lord", the G-d is not begotten and doesn't beget.
Jesus, the Christos Son of G-d can be paraphrased as Jesus, the Sun of G-d or Jesus, the Christus Sun of G-d, the Sun G-d and it is the Sun that is born, die and is reborn or resurrect and if father and mother and creator and destroyer and as Ausar, Auset and Heru then, is the Ancient Egyptian's trinity, which in Christianity is God father, son and mother being the Holy Spirit in a feminine attributable function and interaction.
Christians have a perception, that the Hebrew Byblos "Bible", the Torat and Tanak came first in the way that it was written it gives anyone the notion that their god came first and is the creator of all things and that they are the "Chosen Ones", but when my Hebrew relatives came out of my beloved Kemet "Egypt", they came out with an African religion, which they transformed to better suit their interests and for them to keep their unity.
The Truth is that Ancient Egyptian religions, 42 Negative Actions, Neteroo and Kings and Queens are the basis for the teachings of Judean-Christianity based on the Anthropomorphic personification of the solar and lunar heavenly worlds and other celestials bodies incorporatred in the religions of humanity, but the true androgynous god can be found within each one of us and in the religions of Atum, Osiris and Nun only Atum and Osiris survives the annihilation of all creations in a state of being in repose having united to them, the infinite potential of life and all its immeasurable forms, laws, natures and environments.
Everything that Christianity teaches has been borrrowed from the Ancient Egyptian religions and if you don't think that we are the "Sons and daughters of G-d" then, read my book, The Theosophy of Twt-Mos Djoser that will make the Vatican spin with a 360 degrees turn and turn upside down with their feet up!Welcome to our discussion, Neferkaptah! We agree to disagree here, while leaving our anger at the "door." Thanks for your input. I obviously have a different slant on Christian beliefs from yours. I have some questions:
(1) When you say that Christianity is "based on the Anthropomorphic personification of the solar and lunar heavenly worlds and other celestial bodies," aren't you talking about a pantheistic view of the universe--that the divine being(s) are identified with the universe? If so, you misunderstand the God of the Bible. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1) describes the First Person of God making all things and people through the Second Person (John 1:1-4) by the power of the Third Person (Genesis 1:2). Yet, those three Persons are one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; James 2:19), not three Gods. No other spiritual beliefs have such a mysteriously revealed God.
(2) Who do those theosophical beliefs say that the Christ is? The Bible reveals him to be fully God (Colossians 1:19,20) and fully human (Luke 1:35), another mystery revealed to us by the 3-in-1 Creator-God who came in Jesus to rescue us from our imperfection.
(3) How do those beliefs that you cite rescue us from our many imperfections? God's plan in the Bible is Jesus' entrance into the human race as the God-man to live a perfect life, to die on the cross to take our death penalty on himself, and to rise from the dead to give believers God's new life to live grateful lives for him with joy and peace. Where is the parallel in those beliefs that you cite?
My point is that the God of the Bible is not pantheistic, indentified with the universe as in Hinduisn, nor is he an impersonal God like the Muslim Allah. He desires to enter into a personal relationship with us through his gift of faith by his free acceptance for our transformed lives.
(4) Again, how transforming is that belief that you cite?
Thanks again for entering our discussion. I look forward to your response.
To understand better one must understand the spiritualism perfectly. Every human is the form devine only and this truth will be unaware unless try to understand.
Hi, maruthirp. Thanks for your input. We will probably agree to disagree on that belief. I believe that God is God, and I'm not. Humans are creatures originally made like him, not divine. God gives some of his qualities to believers in Jesus. He is three Persons in one God, Jesus is fully God and fully human, we are lost in our imperfection without trust in that God, who rescues us through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. I believe that Hinduism are believers in pantheism, the idea that the universe and all life are the same as God. Am I correct? How do you deal with the presence of evil in humans and in nature's clashes and defects if you believe that "every human is the form of the divine"?
Wow! what an awesome article! (is that the right name for it?) At any rate, it's wonderful to know that there really ARE others who love to learn about humanity,, too!! And closer to home than I previously thought.
Learned something new today, I did. Thank you for that.What I learned really helped me to get myself back into reading the Bible---and that was "yes, there IS a place for us to discover, rediscover, and discuss without anger or judgement; feelings and opinions, and questions about Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit, and all come through it with more enlightened, perhaps, points of view!
Thank you for that,(and thank you for asking your question; as it challenged me to go back and challenge myself!) I look forward to reading more of your writing.
I DO believe, and feel- with every part of me---that Jesus the Christ is not only divine, but human as well. I don't know if it is 'proper', 'correct', or not. that part isn't my concern. About 20 years or so ago, I began to feel that the New Testament is actually what I would call the Book of Reconciliation.
What if, at seeing His creation in such disharmony, in the throes of hatred and contempt: He is heartbroken, angered, hurt to the nth degree that AGAIN humankind would turn on itself and its environment; and again wants to wipe everyone out, but in remembering His promise to Noah that He'd never again take everything out by flood decides to try something different. And He decides to go in and find out first hand the whys and wherefores of the human condition. What's more, He wants to help humanity along on its journey with positive action, and He will, at all costs, honor His Word to Noah. So God decides to come to Earth as one of those He loves so very much, and that meant He would need to accept physical incarnation from birth; if for nothing else than to be able to really understand the world and experience it as His creation did.
It makes perfect sense to me that Jesus' presence on Earth would be announced and/or described in the ways it has been. I mean, it had to be a heckuva chore to get the message out that " God is among us, and will show us the way" when your vernacular may not have anything in it that works for that!
I say Book of Reconciliation because I get the feeling that through this experience that God had CHOSEN to go through, COMPASSION, EMPATHY, and MERCY were attributes that He attached to His Spirit. And because of that willingness, we ALL benefit through our experience here. Not only that, because we have things much easier than the folks of the Old Testament did. God loved us all so much that we basically got a more complete manual with which to learn from. God imparts to us by way of the New Testament, the things He discovered, or rediscovered, and the principles of His experience. Anyway, what I mean to get across here is that I feel that God had reconciled his heart with His mind, (or vice-versa) , and by experiencing that which caused Him to even WANT to show mercy and compassion---He reconciled Himself with us and us with Himself. It gave humankind a whole new way to understand. Everything.
Getting back on track, here, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see why God can't be BOTH divine and human. I'm thinking here of Jesus' time in the desert; where He is really, REALLY conflicted, but has the presence of Spirit to seek the guidance of His higher consciousness. I think that even though He knew what His response would be, His God-Self had to provide Him with options, so that He would be acting out of free will. Choosing to keep to His human incarnation, it seems to me that His love for us is so perfect, so very intense and complete. It changed the course for us, that's for sure!Hi friends
Jesus created nothing, everything remained the same as before, therefore, he was not a literally god or son of god. Jesus was a human being and a Messenger Prophet of the Creator- God Allah YHWH.
This is my honest opinion; others could differ with it with reasons.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimHi, Ahmadi! We are both peaceful as a Muslim and a Christian. Do you accept John, the writer of the Gospel of John, as a prophet? He was a follower of Jesus for three years and an eyewitness of his death and resurrection. Read his book through, and you will see that the first Person of God created everything and everyone through the second Person, described as the "Word" who became human, yet having God's glory (brightness). I believe that God guided the writing of those words; no one could've dreamed them up! Those are my beliefs; you have a right to yours.
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
0Bruce,
My take is this: both the need to believe AND disbelieve is just something to satisfy that human condition. Having gone the route of both -for exactly the purposes stated, as well as church and university knowledge, I found myself in a place where I neither believed nor disbelieved. Perhaps it was then that it made perfect sense. My choice to follow or not is useless really. I am apart of Him no matter what. No books called bible or physics 101 can prove it.
Many see it as the need to believe, the reward, what have you. I see it more as "just do". By doing, without fear of cause or effect, I have experienced more in minutes than years of either side of this argument and certainly have much more to experience.
In me there is no choice to make. If I still have to make a daily, conscious choice then I have no free will. That to me is faith.
Even if I make a mistake or not, I know no matter what, "I am". And Free Will is Eternal Life v choice -which may or may not lead to death -the coin toss. I prefer to stick with the former.
Many dispute both sides for their own purposes, so don't take any of it literally. Glad you shared this, for the sake of both the believing and non-believing.
-James.
edit:
I do not use the term G/god as it is an idol word. But, yes, He is the manifest word. He is the exact mirror reflection of what we are -what we were created to be. A brother -as He said.Hi, James. Thanks for your interesting response. I'm curious about your statement that you are a part of him. Who or what do you think he is, and how can you be a part of him?
What do you believe about the Bible? I base my beliefs on it alone and what it assumes, since I believe that God used many writers' styles and abilities to convey to us his messages, centering on Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Where do you find the idea that you have free will? The Bible says that we are born dead to God (Ephesians 2:1-4), slaves to our imperfections (John 8:31-38), and blind to him (John 9). When Jesus sets us free (the second passage), we become God the Father's adopted children through his gift of the new birth (John 1:10-14) by way of the God-man Jesus.
You're right that belief in the 3-in-1 God must produce actions; those actions result from God's gifts of the new birth and faith in him. I believe that he right beliefs, however, are important, since we may follow the wrong God if we have the wrong beliefs. I also believe that right actions must also agree with his instructions in the Bible. We are never totally free in our wills, I don't believe.Bruce, there is much to answer in that.
First, He is everything. The universe is merely the word of His mouth, a breathe if you will of his power -which manifest and is now in all who believe it.
My meaning of Free Will v Choice is this: when Adam sinned he at that very instance made a choice. Before that he never had to/needed to. He existed in complete unity with Creator. By Choice he decided and thus became naked -void of free will/grace. He became a slave to his consciousness, his thoughts -and every human after (you are correct). The human thought system was designed to be a tool, transmitting/connecting the complete & perfect spirit with complete & perfect body.
As I joke often "So, that happened..."
Before Y`shua resurrected and ascended, humans could not escape this on their own -except for Enoch and Elijah -because their faith -even then-exceeded choice. The Anointing (Christ) via the same Spirit that raised Him up and others -the same that was in Adam- has now been re-offered to humans. The ability to live in complete unity again -body, brain and spirit.
It is all by faith, yes. But not the faith people pretend ( or deny in some cases) -nor the faith based on human interpretation. But faith according to His. This is the difference between Free Will and choice. If you have to choose to have faith or believe or use your faith, you don't have faith -you have human ambition, human perspective of faith. It is also the human perspective that we need to be saved when in fact we were, everyone was -those who believe / have faith as mentioned above- are. That is the difference. That is why people are still getting sick, dieing in body, lacking fullness of joy and a host of other things created to them.
-James
Edit: As for my position of the bible: It, like Torah/Talmud is not the word but elements/events that contain His direct words.
It is a history reference and a constant reminder that the letter kills -body & spirit, but the Spirit brings life -body & spirit.Thanks, James. That explanation is enlightening. We agree in some respects but not in others. All of the belief systems of the nations at the time of Moses believed as you do--that the gods are the same as everything. Thus, they worshiped the sun, moon, and everything as the gods that are everything. The Hindus, Buddhists, and New Age people continue that ancient idea today.
However, Moses came up with the revolutionary, brand-new idea that God made everything and everyone, but was not everything. That's the point of Genesis chapter one. No one could have come up with such an idea--of an eternal God who is separate from all things and people, who created it all, and who is nevertheless involved in all things (see Psalm 139). It's my conviction that such an amazing God had to have revealed himself to Moses and the other Old Testament writers, because no one could have thought him up.
Other evidences that God revealed himself in the Bible are that he is three Persons in one God, that Jesus is fully God and fully human, and that Jesus died, rose again, went back to heaven, and is coming again. No human mind could've concocted that scenario.
With those and many other evidences, I believe that God revealed himself in the Bible; it's not only a human-generated document (see 2 Peter 1:16-21; 2 Timothy 3:16,17). If you haven't read it lately, I invite you to read the Bible through. A chapter a day will take about three years. You might, then, prove it to yourself whether my evidences hold true.
Thanks again for your response.
- Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago0
Jesus is divine.
He's a part of the Godhead. An inseparable part. Therefore He is God; the Father is God; the Holy Spirit is God.
When He walked on earth, He had a human body.God then just "borrowed" a body and discarded it later, giving rise to the illusion of death. It was just a short term lease. No one really died at all, therefore there was no resurrection, either.
Again, thanks for your response, Q. Where in the Bible did you get the idea that God borrowed a body? I believe what the Bible reveals, that God provided Jesus' divine nature through the Holy Spirit as the Person of God to be named Jesus entered Mary's womb from heaven. Jesus himself said in the Gospel of John several times that he came down from heaven to do his Father's will. His human nature came through Mary to become human.
Those two natures existed in Jesus until his human body died on the cross, as witnessed by his follower John, who saw blood and water come out of Jesus' side when the Roman soldier stabbed him in his side (John 19:28-37). That fact from an eyewitness shows that Jesus' human body really died. The Bible also reveals that as God he continued existing, but parts of three days later he re-entered his human body to live eternally as the risen God-man to give Christian believers forgiveness and new life.whrn the spirit of God left the body of Christ, only then could he die
I agree with you, Brenda. Do you also believe that God is one God as well as three Persons?
I have to disagree. Jesus wasn't God either was Buddha or any of the others that holy books were written about... and a religion was made to represent them.
Jesus said, "You can do what I do if you have enough faith as a mustard seed."
Religions have caused terrifying wars. It is absurd to say you have to be a born again Christian to go to heaven. Boo!!! What a crock of %*#!
Jesus was amazing and so was all the other amazing life changing holy men that religions were based on their individual teachings. Talk all religions together and read them all. There is good in everything they all said and is similar. It's all about love people love!!
Hi, Kimberly! Thanks for bringing your interesting comments. Of course, we disagree, but that's okay with me. When you quote Jesus' comment about the mustard seed, what's your point about faith? My understanding is that Jesus called us to believe, trust, or have faith in him as the God-man that he claimed to be.
You're right that religions have caused horrible wars. The Christian countries went to war in the Crusades, completely disregarding Jesus' teachings that his kingdom was not of this world and that violence wasn't the answer. For example, in 22:36-38 Jesus told Peter to take two swords to the garden where he would be arrested, and Peter used one of them to cut off one servant's ear. Jesus healed the ear and said, "No more of this!" (verse 51) and "Put away your sword" (John 18:11) and "Put your sword back in its place...;for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matthew 26:52).
It seems to me that we have to distinguish between the misguided actions of some followers of religions and the religions' teachings themselves. I think that we should examine the claims and beliefs of any religion, because there are always poor human examples that distort those religions' teachings. The Inquisition is another travesty of Christianity that violated the Bible's (Jesus') command to love our enemies. The big mistake of the Christian church was to become the established church of any country so that people who didn't believe in that church's beliefs were considered to be traitors. All Christians are far from perfect, and power sometimes corrupts them too, sadly.
I'm thankful that established churches are basically no more.
Jesus is a Human though He was a prophet, not God.
For your reference
He Was Righteous
"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).
He Was a Prophet
"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).
He Was a Humble Servant of God
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).
About His presence..
"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .Why do you believe the Qur'an to be more authoritative than the Bible, which centers its 66 books on anticipation, description, and explanation of Jesus as the God-man come from the first Person of God in the power of the third Person of God, the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Bible's teaching that those three Persons are the one God who created all things and people and who sent Jesus, who as God rescued us and as perfect human substituted himself for believers for our forgiveness, not because our imperfect actions. The Bible and Qur'an, both of which I have read completely, disagree on beliefs about God. I believe the Bible's teachings because the eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection were willing to die for their testimonies. Why do you believe the Qur'an?
The question implies that the word 'divine' corresponds to some real phenomenon. Before asking if Jesus or anyone else is 'divine', I think you'd have to demonstrate the reality of divinity.
Can you do that?Why do I have to demonstrate his as if he is some scientific experiment? He reveals himself in the Bible as our Creator and believers' rescuer through Jesus. That's what I believe. You can believe what you want to. Why do you disbelieve? I'm sincerely interested.
I cannot speak for paraglider, but I disbelieve because of a total lack of evidence. You speak of a 1000 year old book, written by those in power in order to maintain that power over uneducated and ignorant peasants. Human nature being what it is causes me to believe that whatever is presented in such a tome is to be taken as truth only insofar as it does not negatively affect said power base.
Belief follows evidence. 100 years ago no one believed in the electron. I have never seen one, but I believe they exist - massive evidence supports the concept.
Likewise, I am sincerely interested in why you would believe that the bible can "reveal" anything of real value? Anything but a sketchy history often based solely on myth?Hi, wilderness! Thanks for joining in on our interesting discussion. First of all, see my response to Twenty One Days above. There's a lot of evidence in the Bible that it came from God. First of all, you can believe what you want about evidence, but your estimate of the Bible's age is a little off. Its age ranges from 3,500 years ago, when Moses wrote the first five books to a little less than 2, 000 years ago. The Jews preserved the Old Testament some time before Jesus, since it is quoted extensively in the New Testament, and Christians wrote the New Testament within 70 years of Jesus' time on earth. We know that timing because whole manuscripts of the New Testament have been discovered that date back to the third and fourth centuries A.D. It certainly wasn't written in the Middle Ages to keep the peasants in line. The priests at that time were the only ones who could read the Bible, and you're right that it was kept from the masses, except during mass :-). You might check the source of your information.
Second, as I said to Twenty One Days, there is abundant evidence that God revealed himself in the Bible. I won't repeat myself. My invitation to him stands for anyone on this hub; you can read the Bible to prove to yourselves whether God's claims for his Book are true.
Third, the "sketchy" history that you refer to is not modern history (that is, an objective account of historical events in chronological), and it shouldn't be read that way. The Israelite prophets, including Moses, wrote the historical books by choosing historical events that make a point about Israel's rebellion against God and other lessons about their true God in thematic order rather than chronilogical order. It's unfair to ancient documents to judge them by modern historical standards. The personal God who made a covenant with Abraham and Israel in personal and communal relationship with him is unique in many ways. He is pictured as ever-living in the past and the future, all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere-present. He also is beyond the universe in a spiritual place and fully involved in guiding his universe. However, humans have made a mess of themselves and his creation; that's why God came in Jesus to rescue. He, therefore, revealed himself because the humans who wrote the Bible could not have dreamed him up.
Thanks again for your participation in our conversation, wilderness!I was not very clear in my posting, I fear. I refer to the KJV and IT'S derivatives in use today. While it may be based on verbal stories and some written accounts much older, it is much less than 2000 years old and written by those in religious power. The writers picked and chose what they wished to include (particularly in the NT) - what did not fit their notions and power base were not included, such as the book of Mary (can't have a mere woman being a prophetess and slingng around God's power - we're all men!).
Even the more ancient writings, such as those purported to be from Moses, always expound on the powers and punishments of God; "do what I tell you or be punished" and keep the "priesthood" powerful.
To indicate that humans could not dream up God out of nothing is patently false; humans have been dreaming up and expanding the stories of their numerous gods for all of history. True, the people that wrote our modern bible did not, but they did not have to - they only had to write a story that would semi-educate people while enabling their continued control.
My point was that outside of these very suspect writings and stories there is no evidence whatsoever of anything devine. Indeed, the stories that DO indicate devinity are "obviously" false as they cannot have happened according to our ideas of chemistry, physics, natural laws, etc. and have never been repeated. (Parting of the seas, Noah's flood, resurrection, water to wine, etc.)
History - I believe we are about on the same page with the historical attributes of the bible. It does indeed have historical aspects, but is sketchy - it was never intended to be a truly accurate and comprehensive history of even the Isrealites.I believe that the history of the Old Testament points to and prepares us for the first coming of Jesus, beginning with Genesis 3:15, where God cursed Satan in the guise of the serpent with the prediction that the descendent of the woman would crush his head as he bruised his heal. That and all of the other prophecies about Jesus were fulfilled in his life, death, and resurrection . The history is carefully chosen by the preachers of the day to prepare the Israelites for Jesus' arrival as the God-man for their rescue.
I don't understand your immediate dismissal of the miraculous without investigation. Ask Christians like me who have experienced God's gift of the new birth how their lives changed and continue changing because of their commitment to the 3-in-1 God. We believe the miraculous in the Bible because we have experienced God's miraculous work in our lives. Ask us.
The parting of the Red Sea and the other "obviously false" (in your words) events in the Bible are nothing for the all-powerful Creator-God revealed there, who has changed my life from an unbeliever to a believer in an invisible God and continues changing me, since I'm still imperfect.Much of our differences, I think, occur as a result of a difference in the "level" of evidence we each require. From my standpoint your evidence is a result of a faulty premise coupled with poorly done experimentation. The faulty, or unproven, premise is that God exists and the bible is true. "That and all of the other prophecies about Jesus were fulfilled in his life, death, and resurrection". Your statement is true ONLY if the prophecies are interpreted to give the answer (Jesus's arrival) that we now know happened AND that we accept the resurrection as factual. But the only record of that is in the bible that is unproven to closely relate to factual history. We have been unable to corroborate hardly any of the biblical stories and the ones we have were not miraculous. Many of your statements begin with "I believe", which is not evidence to me. Even your own experiences are not evidence - they have not been tested with repeatability, blind studies and the such (thus the poor experimentation).
On the other hand, my requirements are foolish to you. You KNOW the existence of God is factual - you have the experiences to prove it. One experience is all that is necessary, nor are such things as blind studies of value. In addition, as God exists then the bible is, after suitable interpretation, factual. That I reject most interpretation is silly; it was written in a different language by people of a different culture. Of course it must be interpreted. Similarly, my difficulties with prophecies is ridiculous; they are as obvious as the nose on my face (and I have no trouble breathing!).
I do not have any problem with such different methodology, except where it affects requirements on other people. I take exception to teaching our children that the bible is true and factual. I take exception to extending religion into our government, especially using my tax dollars to do so. I take exception to morality laws based on religion (gay marriage, perhaps). I'm also sure that you can come up with a similar list with good reasons, but when these two lists are in conflict is when trouble starts. Reasonable people can usually compromise, but zealots seldom do.It's true, wilderness, that we're on two different pages as far as "proof" and "evidence" are concerned. We'll probably never be on the same page, but it's interesting comparing pages :-)! You believe in the theories and results of scientific discovery. I have no problem with proven facts, but much of what is presented as facts in the scientific community is really hypothesis and theory. Science cannot prove that miracles and God do not exist. Many people believe that because science cannot prove his existence, that therefore, he doesn't exist.
You believe that the wind and the atom exist, but you have never seen them. I believe that the unseen God exists, though I've never seen him either. What's the difference? Both are positions of faith. God, the wind, and the atom are known by the things that they do and the eyewitnesses of those results. That's the reason I believe the Bible's witness to him. Our positions of faith may never see eye to eye, but they're both statements of belief.
Wilderness, the NIV (New International Version) is not a "derivative" of the KJV. That version came from a group scholars who are experts in the original languages and translated the Bible from the manuscripts that are from the third and fourth centuries after Christ. The KJV was translated from 10th century manuscripts. Yet, there are only three substantial differences without any change in biblical teachings and history. The Old Testament was translated into Greek and preserved in Hebrew before the time of Christ. I appreciate your responses.
Maybe for you to believe you need evidence. When it comes to believing in Christ and the Bible, for me to believe, it only takes faith. You see the Bible is not a collection of stories, fables, myths, or merely human ideas about God. It is not a human book. Through the Holy Spirit , God revealed His Person and plan to certain believers, who wrote down God's message for His people. This process is known as Inspiration. You and a lot of others cannot believe this, because it takes more than what you have, it takes faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence ot things not seen.
If you're really sincerely interested, I've written quite a few hubs on the subject. I'd suggest 'Jesus, God and Santa Claus - One Man's Journey" as the most relevant here. But since I'm not asserting the truth of something highly questionable, the onus is not on me to explain why I'm not. It is more on you to explain why you are, or, by extension, why you think I should too
I don't think that you should believe as I do, Paraglider. By the way, what does it feel like to paraglide? Anyway, I'll check your hubs out because I am sincerely interested in what and why you believe. That's why I ask about your reasons. That's how I come to understand people better.
Of course, I also have the right to share what and why I believe. That's how we can come to understand each other better.
If we had more understanding in the world, we'd have less violence, I believe. Of course, i believe that my God is the God who revealed himself in the Bible as the only true God. But you can believe as you wish. That's the point of this discussion. I'm not going to get all mad if you don't agree with me. I hope that we can agree to disagree with each other. I don't believe that there's any "onus" on you or anyone to "prove" his beliefs.
Rather, it's my curiosity about how people think and what they base their thinking on that guides me to establish and maintain this and other hubs. Thanks for responding.
Ty Paraglider!
That is the question I've been asking for many many years and getting naught but trite opinion.
This hubbers question is ridiculous in intent because all that can be offered is "opinion."
I don't know why I'm responding to it...I write this as I chuckle to myself. :-)
Interesting statement! I'm interested in knowing more about why you believe that statement, lightning john.
lightning john, Jesus is not a magician, Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah, the Savior of the World, the Son of the Living God.
Because I believe that The church orginization that the Roman Empire built WAS the Beast foretold in Revelation; I am suspicious of the text that they selected to be included in their cannon.
If I am correct I would have to believe that the cannon is based upom fact, but has been tainted concerning key issues.
I do not know which ones they would be?
I am sure that Jesus was the Messiah that was foretold to come.
And he did fulfill all prophesy concerning him.
It would help me to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh if it were stated in OT prophesy.
I don't remember any OT declaration that This Messiah born of a virgin is the son of God.
If anyone knows of any; I would much appreciate reading it.
That would settle this issue in my mind.Jerami, you can look at Isaiah 7:10-14 and 9:6,7 for clear prophecies about Jesus' virgin birth and deity to be finally fulfilled yet in the future with Jesus' second coming. Isaiah 53 is a clear reference of Jesus death as our substitute to take away believers' guilt. Micah 5:2-5a is a prophecy about Jesus' birthplace. There are many more. I hope that these help. Thanks for your participation.
Thanks for thrse references.
There has never been any doubt in my mind about Jesus fulfilling all prophesy concerning being the Messiah as foretold in prophesy.
9:6,9 The reference of "shall be called ; Wonderful , Councelor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting father.
This confirms Jesus and God being one. I had figured that they were said to be one and the same
Are there any "son of God" refferences in the OT..
ThanksNo, but there is a reference to Jesus' favorite title for himself, Son of man. Daniel 7:9-14, where the Father is pictured symbolically as the Ancient of Days and where "one like a son of man" comes to rule with the Father. All the nations worship the son of man. I believe that this vision shows Jesus' re-entry into heaven, also pictured in Revelation 4.
Thanks again for this reference though I am quite aware of this one. Odd you mention Daniel. I've been studying Daniel and Revelation More than you would ever imagine.
You also could not imagine what you might see when we disregard interpretations that have been taught over the centuries; .... I was suprised when I saw what it actulaay says when we get rid of the BS and read what is actually written.
I just finished three hubs on Daniel Visions.
Will write #4 tonight. (C. 9) Check # one out and let me know what ya think.I will, Jerami. My beliefs have been all over the belief-map about Revelation, but I studied the 5 major interpretations of it in seminary. One of them, I believe, fits the whole book best, a-millenialism. However, my second son says that he's a "pan-millenialist. It'll all 'pan' out!" We have to hold on to our interpretations of that symbolic book of prophecy very loosely. Someday we'll all find out who was right but won't say, "I told you so." We won't care, I'm sure, at that point when Jesus comes back. All of our attention will be on him.
Ah, I think we have hit upon Bruce's motives.
Thanks, Beelzedad, for your response. What do you mean? I'm curious. My motives are to discover other people's ideas about the Bible, their reasons for believing as they do, and to share my own.
I would rather see a discussion on where the original jesus story came from.
Jesus never wrote a word in the good book, and looks a helluva lot like quite a few jesus like entities thousands of years before him.the disciples... specially trained people who ate, slept, walked, talked, learned, studied, respected, worshipped, loved, admired, followed, left everything behind for, were saved by, went on to die horrible deaths for, taught others, trained others, spread the gospel for, witnessed countless miracles by, did miracles themselves.. this is where the original story of jesus came from.
Some prophets wrote their own books, john wrote revelation guided by an angel, isaiah wrote the book of isaiah, God wrote the 10 commandments on stone, Moses wrote the Pentateuch, Jeremiah dictated to a scribe, barachus. But all wrote by the promptings, pushings, dictations, direction, actual voice of God (OT), impressings by Gods spirit (NT), inspiration, correction and correlation of GOD himself.
Don't forget then you won't have to repeat yourself again.As they have since this neurosis entered human thinking. Don't forget now, and I won't need to remind you again.
can u back up your claim to neurosis or is this just your hate paranoid phobia speaking
Of course I can back it up, I can site hundreds of neurotic hate filled verses directly from your "good book" I actually read the whole thing, not just the bits I liked!
Keep your pathetically thinly disguised personal attack to yourself!I agree, earnesthub; let's keep the tone of our discussion civil and respectful and leave our anger at the "door." What you're referring to, perhaps, are verses that describe God as a God of justice who punishes the human race's sinful rebellion against him through Adam and Eve. He's a God of love and grace who accepts believers freely because of the God-man Jesus' perfection, death, and resurrection. God's justice fell on Jesus in believers' place. What specific verses would you quote? Let's discuss them.
It's my impression from other hubs, earnesthub, that you are a Muslim, or am I mistaken? If you are, didn't Mohammed accept the "other" Scriptures? I have read the Qur'an completely, and my impression is that every other or third page describes unbelievers' punishment in hell in graphic terms with scalding water poured over their heads and angels laughing at unbelievers' suffering. In contrast, the God of the Bible grieves over human sin but must punish it because he is just. Faith in the God-man is the Bible's answer.
If I'm mistaken about your being a Muslim, I apologize.Well, I have never been mistaken for a Muslim before! This may shock you, but I am a born again Christian who has studied religion and psychology throughout my life, and have read the bible and the quoran thoroughly, deciding that one was only slightly worse than the other. The bible riles against minorities, sanctions rape and slavery and threatens to burn non believers in an eternal fire. The Koran rewards terrorists with virgins, and apart from a few differences both books are filled with psychosis.
Your god is all in your mind. When you die, your god will die with you as the signals that created him cease to gain oxygen from your blood.
Worm food!
I am more interested in loving my grandchildren than worshipping some sky fairy who wants to kill his creation because he screwed up! A complete nonsense!I'm sorry, earnestshub, that I mistook you for a Muslim. I guess that I will find out when I die whether you or I were right about my God. I'm confident from all that God has done in my life to enable me to believe in him at 16, turn me back to his call to be a pastor after I rebelled, provide for our family of 5 while I went to seminary, sent me to seven churches preaching and teaching the God of the Bible, healed me from 7 years of depression to give me permanent peace about my brother's and our son's deaths from leukemia, and guided us into retirement to give me a writing career. He has given me many victories over my sinful self and shows me in the Bible that I have life beyond death as his free gift through Jesus by the Spirit's power.
One thing that I'm curious about, wilderness. In what Bible passages do you find railing against minorities (it welcomes the foreigner and defends the orphan and the widow), sanction of rape, and threats of hell to non- believers. The last one is clearly stated in several passages. However, God is not only a loving God of grace but also a just, perfect God who must judge humans' willful imperfection as their Creator. If there is an all-powerful Creator, doesn't he have the right to judge humans' intentional rebellion? Your belief system probably doesn't accept God as our Creator, the way both the Bible and the Qur'an picture him. A difference, among many, between the two books is that the Bible presents God as three Persons in one Maker/Rescuer God, whereas the Qur'an.says that Allah is impersonal or one person--two different Gods. Also, the Qur'an emphasizes hell abundantly on every other or third page, whereas the Bible emphasizes God's love and grace. The Qur'an knows nothing of those qualities for its Allah.
I too love my children and my grandchildren, but I love and adore the 3-in-1 God most of all. Thanks for your input!
Why does jesus have to write anything. Got an apprentice at your car shop? Someone who worked there for x amount of time or maybe finished an apprenticeship. If that person writes a book about cars we can assume it will be full of advice and stuff that you taught him.
So why do people put so much effort into constantly saying that the writtings of jesus' disciples/apprentices are no good.
I believe them to be the highest calibre and most reliable witnessess if not only for their proximity to christ alone, but we can't forget the upper room (acts 2) and the infilling of the holy spirit which totally empowered them. It was like their graduation gift.
The way people fight against christianity i doubt they would take a book written by christ any more seriously than by his disciples.I know you have only glanced my auto hubs, but you would be better to address my interest in psychology, then you won't have to make up examples about religion from auto workshop advice!
If you were inside the motor industry you would not be so keen to accept advice from apprentices.hehe.. still you get the message. I would hope a "graduated" apprentice would write a good book even if you were the teacher. This is my message. In the apostles case of course, god inspired the writing, which is to say that he orchestrated the words to be written.
Why don't we just ignore that his story was told of other sons of gods thousands of years before?
The resemblances are uncanny!small s... sons of god.... when refering to jesus a capital S is used. I am so surprised you didnt know that lol.
What other stories are you referring to? I'm curious, because I don't know of any other stories about a perfect God-man who entered human life from heaven, lived a perfect life, died a death as our Substitute, rose from the dead permanently, went back to heaven with his Father, both equally God, with the Holy Spirit, and sent the Holy Spirit to revolutionize believers' lives from the inside out. Where do you find that amazing story elsewhere than in the Bible? No humans could've made that chain of events up!
I believe that you misunderstand what is meant by the term "Son of God." Christians believe on the basis of the Bible that God did not give birth to Jesus, but that Jesus always existed before creation and was the agent of the first Person of God's creation of all things and people. The third Person, the Holy Spirit, hovered over the forming creation just as he did over Mary as the second Person to be named Jesus entered her womb from the first Person in heaven to be joined to a human nature and body while remaining God. In that sense, Jesus as human and divine is God's Son, and only in that way.
My request stands, earnestshub. Find a story just like that biblical story about Jesus anywhere else, and I'll give you a gold-star sticker here :-) and understand better why you believe as you do!
- SirDentposted 14 years ago0
God put on a body of flesh that is corruptible, so that man can put on the righteousness of God. Jesus became what we are in order for us to become what He is.
perfectly said, SD!
now if we could get all the believing to actually do -instead of want to do, this would change things rather quickly.
As for the unbelieving, they are themselves.
What can we do -except be the actual living proof positive -in body, brain, spirit - that righteousness, by His perspective of it; His image of us -and not the human explanation, perspective of it.
-JamesHence, your god never died and Christians mistakenly believe he did.
Please share with us the reasons for denying John's and the other eyewitnesses' testimonies that they saw Jesus die (for example, John 19:28-37). John held to his testimony against all opposition, even to be exiled to a penal colony island, Patmos (Revelation 1). Why would he persevere if it didn't happen?
Ahh, but He did die. He even went to hell. Only God can go there and come back out you know.
So, what your claiming is that gods CAN die? Yes?
He can lay down His life if He so chooses. By the same token, He can also take it up again.
Doesn't really mean much then? No biggie in fact. Big deal? No. Special? Not in the slightest.
Pretty much the same conclusion I came to when I first had this explained to me. Meaningless gibberish to confuse the sheeple.It seems that you are the one confused. Would you like some help with that?
From you? Good grief! No thanks. I would rather be poked in the eye with a sharp stick. In fact - I am a little shocked you are prepared to use elektricity. B'aint that th' work 'a' lucifer?
I think I can sharpen a stick also if that's what you really want.
I was fairly certain that you would be up for that. In fact - It seems more up your alley. I wouldn't say it is what I want - I know you like to change what people say to suit what Jesus would have wanted me to say, but - If I had to choose between you "educating me" and being poked in the eye with a sharp stick - bring on the stick.......
Give me the address of one of your close neighbors and I will send the stick to him to do it. I am not up to flying to where you are to do it personally.
On a more serious note. This is what non-believers choose over truth. They would rather have torment and agony than have the truth. The Jews cried for Pilate to release Barrabbas, (a convicted theif and murderer) instead of Christ. It is what the world wants.
Sorry - you have no truth. You are a hypocrite who takes personal power from pretending he speaks for a non existent deity. How does it feel to make a young girl feel guilty for a difficult decision? Makes you feel pretty special huh? LOL
That is the truth Dent. No Morals. None. Terrible behavior. No wonder your religion is despised. Not because you tell the truth - exactly the opposite.
Surprised people are leaving the church in droves? Not at all.
Which means he can't really die. So, he didn't die, it was all just a fake death. The contradiction of resurrection is obvious.
Q, you're delving into a mystery, I believe. I believe that the Bible reveals Jesus to be fully divine and fully human combined in one Person, who could die because he was human but who survived that death because he was God. That mystery along with other mysteries of the Bible cannot be fully understood by our puny minds. God's God and I'm not. He's the all-powerful Creator and Rescuer of imperfect humanity through the God-man Jesus' death (according to the eyewitnesses) and resurrection (again, according to the eyewitnesses). I believe these truths because that same God made me die to the guilt of my sin and alive to live a changed life to become more and more like Jesus. Some day I'm confident that he will make me perfect beyond death.
Satan also seems to travel into and out of hell. According to many, so do his demons.
Is it possible that Dante also made the trip and his autobiographical journal was merely written in a manner to gain interest but is still true?True, but Satan cannot appear to men in the flesh. As far as his demons go, if you mean the angels that followed after him, they are bound in chains reserved until the day of judgement.
I think you would find considerable disagreement among believers. Does not the Catholic church still "cast out demons"? Or am I using the wrong words for an exorcism? I would also ask how you know that Satan cannot cover himself with flesh? Would not Satan make an ideal antichrist? Or a great politician?
I have no idea what the catholic church does or does not do. I am not nor have I ever been catholic.
Satan only has as much power as God gives him. He is antichrist, but not the antichirist.
No matter how much disgreement there is between believers, the truth is the truth.
I actually meant to ask if you meant Satans angels in your previous comment. My apologies for not being more clear.
I don't know about Dante, Wilderness, but the Bible is clear that hell is the place for God's punishment of unbelievers. However, he grieves over the human race's neglect of and disobedience to him (Genesis 6) and their worship of the creation rather their Creator (Romans 1:18-25). God is ready to receive in love any who return to him. Humans put themselves in hell by way of their rebellion, not because God wanted it that way. He allows their rebellion in order that they realize their waywardness and return to him before it's too late.
Death is not "death" to God...
It is simply another creation within this creation. Death is as real to God as a dream is to us. That is what Christ proved by succombing to the physical death here on earth.
His arising proves that death has no hold over God or his chosen.Ah, here comes the justification, death isn't death.
So, then gods CANNOT die. I wish you believers would make up your mind.You have never heard me say god can die.
I do agree that Christ was the example of god's power over death.Christians claim Christ died, yes? Christians claim Christ is the son of god, yes? If Christ is the son of a god or is god, then he can't die because he is a god, yes?
Do you not see the contradiction here?Q, the Bible says that Jesus was fully human and fully God, the same as we are except for sin. As human he could die and as God he could come back to life as both. There is a mystery beyond what is revealed. Thanks for your participation in our discussion, Q. It's stimulating.
The so-called mystery is actually "contradiction" and is no mystery at all. Believers haven't the ability for critical thought hence haven't a clue what a contradiction is when it comes to their belief system.
There can be no contradictions in religion because prayer allows the meek to violate the physical laws of the universe at their whim. Silly in the extreme.Hi friend (Q)
I agree with you.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslimto an ignorant person energy and matter are two things, not two expressions of one.
Q and Ahmadi, you have interesting beliefs, and I do call them beliefs. How can you generalize about all believers since you haven't met all of them? Prayer doesn't violate any physical laws. It just depends on the God who made those laws and can intervene in his creation at any time. After all, Christians believe that he's the all-powerful God.
Q, I reason within the context of the Bible, which I believe to be God's Word. How can you be so sure that your reasoning powers are correct in rejecting the God of the Bible, whose "thoughts are above our thoughts and ways abover our ways" (Isaiah 55)?
As always, it's been stimulating..Hi friend Bruce_Leiter
How could you belive Bible as God's Word? Bible has several books, none of which is authored by God. None of them is written or dictated by Jesus. None of them is written by a person expressly authorized by even Jesus to write on his behalf. Can't God author the Bible? Can't Jesus write a book. Why Jesus leave Bible to be written by scirbes who were not even faithful to him? And they deserted him at the hour of need. Please think on these questions seriously.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimPaarsurrey, I believe that the Bible is God's Word in that he guided the writers to write the Old Testament to prepare us for Jesus' first coming, the gospels to describe his coming, and the rest of the New Testament to explain his first coming and to prepare us for his second coming. The prophets and apostles (and friends of the apostles) wrote it by God's inspiration (2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1: 16-21). The eyewitnesses' discouragement when Jesus died (because they along with all of the Jews expected an earthly ruler as the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament) and their courage in the face of all opposition after they said they witnessed Jesus alive from the dead convinces me that Jesus' death and resurrection actually took place. No one could have thought up those events. Therefore, God had to have caused and revealed them to Jesus' followers. There are many other reasons, but those are a few. Thanks for your part in our discussion.
And, we most certainly know that Christians are indeed the authorities on what we are supposed to believe. I'm convinced.
Reasoning with your bible is only relevant within that set of scriptures and does not pertain to any other belief system simply because you believe it.
The same reason you reject thousands of other scriptures. The only difference is that I reject one more set of scriptures than you.
Paarsurrey and Q, I value your comments. I apologize that it took so long for me to answer you, but we went on vacation where there was no Internet for nine days.
I've thought about your ideas in various forms for decades. The Bible, first of all, claims to be from God. If you have a Bible handy, look up 2 Timothy 3:16,17, where God inspired Paul to write that all (every) Scripture was God-breathed. The First Person through the Second Person in the power of the Third Person of God--the one God--guided the writers to write what he wanted them to write using their talents and abilities in their various styles. Also, God guided Peter, an eyewitness, to write in 2 Peter 1:16-21 that the prophets and apostles did not make up the Bible, but that they were carried along by God like a sailing boat with the wind (the meaning of the original Greek). He says that they saw Jesus' divine brightness at his transfiguration, on the mountain when he showed his heavenly glory, with Peter, James, and John as eyewitnesses.
Second, yes, all of his disciples deserted him at his arrest in the garden, and Peter denied that he knew Jesus three times when asked. But Jesus restored Peter and the rest after the resurrection. Such is God's amazing grace (his free acceptance) shown to his believers because of Jesus' own perfect life, death as our substitute, and resurrection.for our new life with him.
Christians don't claim any more about God and their personal relationship with him than he himself revealed through the prophets and apostles in the Bible. We are not the authorities; he through the people who wrote those words is our sole authority. I invite you to read the Bible through again to see if his authority is there.
- brotheryochananposted 14 years ago0
God enables whom he chooses to accomplish what he chooses them to do.
There are messianic prophecies throughout the OT. I have a hub that includes them. There are types and foreshadowing events in the OT . Jesus was destined to be.
jesus means "the lord is salvation".
christ means "annointed".
Jesus brought salvation and he was annointed of god. Mary's egg and yahwehs holy spirit concieved jesus to do the will of god as only God can do. Jesus accepted worship which is reserved only for God. Jesus was the animal sacrifice for sin to put an end to the dispensation of God according to the flesh, thus ushering in a new dispensation according to the spirit, God will again change dispensations when the cup of his wrath comes into focus in revelation.
Is jesus God? God never takes chances, he deals harshly with sin sometimes eradicating it completely. Nothing surprises God. The atomic bomb did not surprise God neither did hiroshima. God made jesus infallible, as jesus had to be sinless to be the atoning sacrifice as indeed jesus had to die to be sacrificed as per the demands of the system he was ending and be resurrected so he could come back again and a bunch of other stuff to, like the holy spirit at pentecost and to give evidence of an afterlife. But God doesn't lie nor does he create falsehood. If the bible says that jesus is the son of man and the son of god and god in the flesh, which it does then i have to believe that Jesus is both, human and God. I rationalize this by stating that "constant communication with the Father or God" is the blessing and annointing that jesus had to complete his huge assignment. The original or historical Jesus is hard to trace back. Other than the Gospels, only three accounts have mentioned the crucifixion of Christos or the brother of James who might be the God Jesus we are talking about. Even if these three accounts are talking about the same Jesus, then it is quite clear that at that time Christos wasn't considered a God & had only a handful followers thus leading to such insignificant description in a handful historical sources. The lack of references outside Bible makes it really difficult to believe that Jesus was a very popular person who came, saw & won the heart of the people. It is Apostle Paul, who might have played a major role to build the current faith structure of Christianity.
& a Philosophical question to everyone: Interference of God in a Human body is considered an anomaly which occurs once in a million years. Incidents like that should have impact on every single life form not only in this earth but in the overall universe. Now when you see the historical Jesus, you will learn that except a very small portion of middle east, no one really knew nor was effected by the coming & dieing of Christ. America, India, China, Africa & a lot of portion of the world would know about him 100's & even 1000 year later. Would God or the Savior Messiah be such insignificant?Thanks for your response, Rishy Rich! Please read my other responses about why I believe that God revealed himself in Jesus and in the Bible. My question is, Do you have to have contemporary references outside the Bible to prove it? I don't. Do we have to have independent references outside of any ancient writings to accept them as authentic? I don't believe so. We instead look at the document itself for authenticity.
The Bible has its own references in 66 books that all describe an amazing God who is beyond human thought. All other Gods could have been thought up, but the mysterious God of the Bible couldn't have been concocted by the human mind. I suggest to you that you read it through in three years or sooner and test whether my reasons in all of my responses hold water. Let me know your responses; we can discuss your questions. You can believe what you want to believe. That's up to you.
I believe Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. I keep an open mind about other religions and don't discount the improbable or the impossible simply because another does. I don't condemn anyone.
Another wasted thread on a specific human being. It's quite ironic that Christians(and it's sister religions) are specifically told by Jesus NOT to worship or idolize anyone.
Yet, people do it with Jesus himself. How pathetic can people be?In today's world, spirituality in a religious context is more on a personal level, less dogma and more open to new ideas.
It is seen as one's personal relationship with "their" God or belief system (God-Spirit-Universe) vs. what is understood to be shared by all others.
In otherwords, it is much more personal in nature rather then something that is simply believed from the traditions of dogma.
It is our perceived emotional connection to God-Spirit-Universe.
If people's personal beliefs seem pathetic, I suggest a comprehensive self study plan.Nice to see you don't read everything just like the rest of your religious friends.
Personal relationship with god? This is a personal relationship with SELF! Nothing more!
You're obviously skewed. The word "god" isn't meant as a literal thing. It about self-control/responsibility of oneself.
Being true to oneself, so as to love oneself, so honesty and mercy can be displayed for others.
Anyone who has a personal belief system is of course going to base it on what they have learned and experience. However, if they are not based on reality, then they are delusions.Some people do not believe that spirituality is religion at all, but the connection to the universe itself, or a force, spirit, or sense of their inner being, in an active and vital way.
One aspect of 'Being spiritual' is goal that aims at simultaneously improving one's wisdom and willpower, while achieving a closer connection to God-Spirit-Universe, whichever one believes in, by removing all illusions and false ideas at the sensory, feeling and thinking aspects of a person.
For those who consider themselves Spiritual by nature it is an essential part of an individual's overall health and well-being. Due to its personal nature, spirituality can perhaps be better understood by highlighting key concepts that arise when people are asked to describe what spirituality means to them.
These concepts may not be based on reality as proven by science. This doesn't neccessarly make them delusions eitherOnce you STOP using the word "GOD" you'll be fine with what you said. Otherwise, it is just delusional.
I see...since I believe in the GOD portion of my statement I'm delusional. We can therefore agree that spirtuality is essential just the God part you don't like.
I'm amazed at your seemingly openminded approach to the concept and yet your dimissive attitude that God-Spirit-Universe,has anything to do with it."GOD", as you put is not being properly understood.
It is a metaphor for what I said. You seem to be missing that part. The altruistic mythology tied to religion about "god" being real, when it's not intended to be real. That's why it is a story of mythology.
To be "god" in your own life is to control yourself, your thoughts, desires and will, so as to understand yourself better.
To learn about honesty and compassion(mercy). Thinking it is real is the delusion.The strength of our "connection" is derived from our connection to "self". The first step to being more spiritual is a better understanding, acceptance, and love of ourselves, thus creating a stronger connection to God-Spirit-Universe.
The stronger the connection to the above, the more flexible we become in dealing with both our inner spiritual life, and our external life. Spirituality develops along with, and not separated from our body awareness, thought processes, and emotional intelligence.
When one component grows faster or slower then the other, our mind-spirit-soul becomes cluttered and unclear. I keep that clarity with my belief in God and that is my, as well as many others, choice.
The word "choice" brings to mind a small poem I read many years ago: "Two men who lived behind jail bars, one saw mud, the other stars". We all have choices. We can make ourselves prisoners by our own choices or find freedom within our own hearts and minds. We have all been Blessed with the freedom of choice, but it is up to us with what we do with it. Positive thought and positive actions bring about positive results.
One of the most important and valuable gifts we have is the power of choice. I choose to believe in God, you don't, that's ok. This doesn't make me delusional.And, now you go on to start using other words that actually do not exist, yet you cannot see it.
Spirit? Soul?
Can you prove either one exists? No, you cannot!
Both of the words are descriptive words, that describe one person's actions.
Human beings do not actually have a soul or spirit. They do have a consciousness, a subconsciousness and a conscience.
This is NOT a spirit or soul, as you pertain to them. And, as for the God-Spirit-Universe?
Like I stated before- "god" - the only 'god' you need to believe in is YOURSELF and nothing else. No matter how you slice it, you are in control of your life and it is not determined in any other manner, aside from your own actions.Quantum Physics is proving that all things falls within universal law, including the possibility of spirit visitation and communication, capturing orbs or spirit pictures, auras, and the necessity of each of us to pursue the knowledge of expanding our reality to accept what modern technology and experiments are proving.
Visualization, astral projection, out of body experiences, near death experiences, meditation and a good dose of inquisitiveness leads us down a path of true learning.
This is how I choose to see it...The soul and spirit are made up of divine energy. The soul gives us life, but the spirit is the accumulation of all lessons learned, our individuality. Enery can often be seen by people or photographed, and this is referred to as their "aura". In areas of healers they use their own energy at times to correct the energy of the other.
When someone's energy resonates within us, we are attracted to them, but there are times when their energy and ours does not resonate and try as you may, you will never feel close to them, or even be repelled by them.
Thought and intent is also energy so they too radiate outside your body and cause an affect on the people and things around you. Energy is universal and cannot be destroyed.
Perhaps the soul or spirit can't be proven in a lab; however in your search for wisdom, don't discount the possiblility that some day the soul will be proven to exist even to you.
Cagsil and Luvpassion, thanks for your input. i was away from the Internet for 10 days. Your discussion is an on-going one about the existence of the soul. Paul in the Bible assumed in Philippians 1 as well as 2 Corinthians 5 that when believers die, their personalities or souls go to be with God. What the Bible, which I believe to be from God through Paul and other writers, assumes, I assume to be true. I guess that we'll find out when we all die whether we survive beyond death.
However, Luvpassion, we disagree, I believe, on the nature of that soul. You seem to identify it as part of the universe. I believe that, according to the Bible, God created each of us with a soul that will survive death. God as the all-powerful Creator is separate from his universe. He promises that all humans who trust in him as the 3-in-1 God--Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, one God--have hope for our future, bodily resurrection because Jesus rose permanently from the dead.
Thanks again for your responses.
The trouble with your statement is that Jesus accepted people's worship: a healed leper, a healed man born blind, and Thomas, who doubted that Jesus actually came back to life from the dead until he put his fingers into Jesus' wounds sustained on the cross (to name a few people who worshiped him). I'm convinced that only Jesus can legitimately accept people's worship because he was and is God as well as human.
It seems to me that your faith in human consciousness, subconscious, and conscience is based on some other people's ideas, but have you ever seen or touched them? That's the point of my belief in the soul, Cagsil. The Bible, which I believe is from God, tells that the soul and spirit are real, so I believe that they exist. How can you categorically say that they don't exist? That kind of statement puzzles me. You don't know for sure that they don't exist. All you can say is that you don't believe that they exist, just like God, isn't that so? Correct me if I misread your writing.
However, I do value your input to this hub.Myth without basis.
And, you would be sorely misguided in the understanding of your life. You use your faith incorrectly, therefore you have blinded yourself from the truth of life. But, you keep on believing.
That's your problem. You use ONE piece of reference material, to engulf your perspective or view of life. Again, blinding yourself.
Simple, because I know myself, apparently better than you know yourself.
I am sure quite a bit puzzle you, but don't worry, I'm sure you're not that eager to learn anything new, because you have your sound belief in 'god'.
Answered above.
You're obviously not all the interested in what I have to say, and your statement below is of untruth, because your belief(faith) will not allow you to remain open to those who do not believe. I know they do not exist. I do not have a spirit nor so I have a soul. Which btw- are descriptive words, so as to describe a person's action.
Please, you have no value for my input, as I said above, as a believer you cannot see truth in anything a non-believer or such, has to say about the matter. And, your words in the FORUM POST(not hub) proves you lack the knowledge or experience.
You should have done your homework. Just a thought.I'm open to you, Cagsil, though we may disagree about the Bible and God. Just because you have not convinced me that my position of faith is wrong doesn't mean that i don't accept you and don't enjoy interacting with you. Please let me know what knowledge and experience I lack; I'm curious. You also take a position of faith in your experiences and knowledge.
It is possible that my position is wrong; I'll find out when I die. That's what faith is all about, trust in someone or something as the source of life's meaning. What or whom is your faith in for that meaning? I'm just curious about people's thinking and their reasons for believing or disbelieving. That's the reason I entered hubpages Saturday and started this forum post. However, we all believe in something for meaning.
We happen to believe in different objects of our faith. We'll see who's right in the future.Cagsil, your input is always appreciated! You may think that my only source of knowledge is the Bible. There are other sources, such as science and history, that are sources for my knowledge. However, science's and history's knowledge show me the God who made all things and people and who guides history, as revealed in the Bible, which is my filter to help me know the "big picture." He is the God who reveals himself in his creation, and my "glasses" for looking at those discoveries are the pages of the Bible, the primary way that God has revealed himself, I believe. I thoroughly enjoy our Creator in all human, factual discoveries.
Cagsil, your input is always appreciated. Jesus claimed that he was God and accepted several people's worship, including doubting Thomas, who exclaimed to Jesus when he saw him risen from the dead, "My Lord and my God!" John recorded that meeting in his gospel. Either Jesus was mentally ill in claiming deity or was truly God; there's no other choice. His miracles and resurrection, witnessed by so many people, demonstrated that his claim of deity was and is correct. I'm convinced that the ultimate question in life is how to respond to his claim.
I guess by definition, if you are a Christian, you believe that Jesus was divine, and if you do not believe it, then you are not a Christian.
There are many who believe that Jesus was real and revere him, but do not consider him to be divine, but I doubt these people would refer to themselves as "Christian"
That being said, as I am a Christian, I believe he is divine.Jesus is as Devine and Human as the rest of us.
Have you not read your bible... Psalms 82, or 2nd john... The pharasees again seek to stone Christ. This time for, as they say... "making yourself as a God, among men".
To which Christ replied.. "is it not written in your law... I, God, have said, ye are all Gods."
And yes, it is written in Hassidic law.
So...@ TMM- Context again needs to be applied here. The verse you're quoting has to do with a parallel use of the word god for the purpose of showing the power and thereby the responsibility of certain positions on earth. To say you're a god or are like god is to fall for the lie of Satan. Many religions teach this lie(Mormons, new age, emergent, etc). It's fueled by pride and not understanding the biblical context of the bible. Jesus was fully God and fully man, second member of the trinity.
I agree with you Spiderpam. Jesus was both divine and human. Only He had the power to carry the weight of all the sins of the world. Only He could redeem us. Jesus is God and was always God, but He had to become a man for a time, to be able to make salvation possible, that doesn't change the fact that He is divine and without sin.
No it isn't.
The context I applied is correct and the lesson learned from it is that, we are all the sons and daughters of God and that we are all capable of the wondrous things God does. But we are trapped here... in this physical world.
Now you can twist the context all you want... but it says what it says and that is a simple thing to understand.
And Jesus was not God... he was the Son of God in the ephemeral sense, as he stated... as we all are.Interesting logic. First, god creates an entire universe with a planet just for the humans, but Christians are "trapped" here. What could possibly be the reason for their distress? Can't handle reality? Or, has the unreal picture of the afterlife perfection painted by their god have disillusioned the believer such that they are feeling "trapped" in reality?
I say, they are free to move on anytime and leave this world to us wretched atheists, who at the very least can appreciate what the gods have provided.The whole point of the bible is the fall of man from the grace of God to this plane of reality... and man's way to re-attain that grace.
So...
Whether or not you believe is your choice Q... no one can force it on you.Q, why do you say that we Christians are distressed. God has given me peace to replace anger about a number of issues that I had with him in my life, and that peace is permanent, not dependent on circumstances. How does atheism satisfy you and give you peace, or doesn't it? God gave my wife and me peace about my son's death from leukemia. He also gave me permanent peace about chronic pain and daily migraines and supplied solutions. What would be the source of permanent peace for atheists? I'm just curious.
No, it isn't, that's just the replacement of your problems with a crutch. The problems you refer still exist, you have not dealt with them, they are merely masked by delusion.
I have no idea what you're talking about. There is nothing in atheism that offers peace or satisfaction. That is something we make for ourselves.
Your god created leukemia, didn't he? Didn't your god create everything? You should be blaming your god for your sons death if you believe that.
The only peace mankind will ever have is when religions disappear completely.
If you're trying to convince me that your belief in god has stopped chronic pain and daily migraines, it won't fly. Sorry.Thanks for your response, Q. No, God didn't create leukemia; it came because of humanity's fall into imperfection. Sickness and death both came that way. However, I was bitter at God for allowing, not causing, our son to die; my brother to die the same way when I was a baby in the womb; me to grow in my dysfunctional family; and other people to treat me unlovingly.
I bottled all my bitterness up for 2/3 of my life without knowing it, and that unhealthy repression led to seven years of depression. By way of psychological help, God enabled me to begin to grieve those losses in prayer. The amazing result was that as I persisted in expressing my anger and anxiety to God in prayer (like Psalms 6, 39, 42, 88, and Job 3 and 10) and confessing my imperfections, he came much closer to me took away my depression in 7 1/2 months of prayer and my 43-year-old anger and anxiety in another month to give me peace, that is, submission to his allowing those events.
Furthermore, chronic pain did not stop, though God is gradually relieving it by back surgery. The peace that God gives freely (see Philippians 4:4-7) is a permanent submission to his permissive will. When he gave me that peace, I discovered all of the many good things that he taught me from pain and migraines.
Please let me share with you how God helped me to relieve my daily migraines. You may think that these events were a series of coincidences, but I believe that God led me. You judge. A whole year before I received a call to pastor a new church, i prayed persistently that he would give me a call where my migraines would not be a problem. He provided the call that I knew that he wanted me to accept. The migraines continued a little less frequently (3 or 4 a week) but still too often.
Leading up to right-shoulder surgery, I had 11 migraines in 9 days (in fact, I had one on the way to surgery--2 1/2 hours). The surgery immediately stopped my migraines for a whole week until I fell flat on that same shoulder in a sling walking up the steps of our church. As a result, the migraines resumed every day. I asked God what was happening, and a thought occurred to me that I should press my right shoulder against a doorpost to try to stop my migraines, which started on left-back of my head. When I found the most painful spot in my shoulder muscles, my migraine stopped immediately!
It only takes a few minutes to get rid of every migraine, and that pattern has held true for three years. I'm convinced that it was God, my Creator, using my prayers to lead me to a solution that provided amazing relief! I praise him for his blessing!
Q, I can give you many other series of events in which God clearly led me by prayer and circumstances to guide and bless me, not because I'm so good but because he's a God of grace (free acceptiance) because of Jesus..I'm sorry Bruce, the only thing I can respond with is, Wow!
Double extra Wow! I don't have migraines - does that make me evil? And I don't need to blame God for my losses. Still - If it makes it feel better.
It puts the lotion in the basket!Hi, Mark. I was away from the Internet for 10 days. No, not having migraines doesn't make you evil, but the whole human race fell into imperfection as Genesis 3 teaches. The result was suffering, sickness, natural disasters, and death. I didn't blame God for causing my suffering. However, I believe on the basis of the Bible, that his plan as the Creator was to allow, not cause, those difficulties in our lives to call us to trust him as the 3-in-1 God who created each one of us and who sent Jesus, the God-man, to join humanity in order to rescue us who believe in and follow him and the Bible's ways as God's ways. That "lotion" is the Person Holy Spirit from the Father through Jesus who gives us permanent peace and joy.
Before I experienced 7 years of depression and eventually received his peace, the stress of my bitterness toward other people and God made my voice very loud, and I bawled out other drivers. When God's peace came and my depression disappeared, I became much calmer, and the heat of my anger at other drivers changed to a minor irritation. My voice is much softer as well.
I'm comvinced that anyone who trusts in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible can experience the permanent peace of Philippians 4:4-7 because God promised it to all who honestly expresses the anger (frustrations, impatience, irritations) in their lives in personal prayer. At the same time, believers need to confess their imperfections.
Thanks, Mark, for your comment.My pleasure, I agree that there is no god - well done. Good for you. Hope you get over your loss in a more appropriate fashion. At least we agree there is no god.
Where did I say that there is no God, Mark? I believe that there is.
Really? How odd. I got the impression you were capable of rational thinking. Instead I see you pounding the forums with your irrational beliefs.
My mistake. Just another religionist. Oh well.
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
Again, the clinging necessity. Parting of seas; lifting of disease; speed of chariots. I would assume only the fortunate have the unique ability to indulge such memorials. Good thing Creator has no necessity -else everything you live for would be as equal to Him.
Never mind, He never once asked humans to explain Him;
Never mind He never called upon humans to create the foundations of the universe, planet, ocean, trees of papyrus used to scribble on and call it the Word of a God. Never mind the simple luster of a star a single eye blink away that humans stare at, and just as easily ignore because their eyes are fixed on the troughs of hate, argument or conformity of their self-indulgent desire for their own understanding of a self manufactured necessity... Thanks, kephrira, for your input. Who is Jesus in your opinion? That's the question we started with way up there?
By the way, my sincere thanks to all of you who have responded to my post. It's been interesting, to say the least! We don't have offend each other or talk one another into believing the way we do for the discussion to be stimulating and for the most part amiable.
Thanks to all of you!
Is Jesus divine or only human?
Hi friends
Jesus was never a god; he could never be.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimHi friend mohitmisra
Please elaborate further.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimOmnipresent -present in all things, god is in all things, including every human.
Here I feel Islam is not a complete philosophy as this is not taught.
Sufis do believe in uniting with godHi friend mohitmisra
I don't agree with you.
The Creator-God Allah YHWH has neither a body nor He is a spirit; He has created everything physical and having spirit. He is everywhere with his attributes and there is no place where He is not in his attributes or in other words which is out of His command. Sufis and you have not understood the concept clearly, sorry.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim@paarsurrey...hey how r u...all is fine?...i was worried about u..u live is India or pakistan?...
God is reffered to as spirit or atma or paramatma ,Holy Spirit,Great spirit.
He is everywhere with his attributes and there is no place where He is not
So all is god including every human.Here Hinduism and Christian philosophy is clearer.
"I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus
Enlightenment is becoming the Light or God , Allah ,Brahma r Jevovah
Ilsam also says "unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things"
Man comes from god, god is mans source and he goes back to it.The material world is god extension.Jesus was referring to the power that teachers carry over their listeners; He's not saying that everyone is a "god", He's reminding His detractors who said He was blasphemous by claiming to be the Son of God, that the Old Testament compared the Judges and teachers to "gods" because of the influence of their positions. In other words, He was showing them their error, or trying to; but then, and even today, many refuse to even understand what's plainly evident.
Sorry but Jess couldn't have been clearer.
"The kingdom of god is within you"
Mediation or one pointed concentration is the way to fuse with god the Light.
When they eye be single -Jesus
Similar philosophy to HinduismWelcome to our discussion, mohit...! Any Bible passage can be taken out of the context of the rest of the Bible. The Bible's context of any passage with Jesus' teachings removes it far from Hinduism. You can believe what you want to; I won't talk you out of your beliefs. However, please don't quote the Bible as if it teaches Hinduism, because it doesn't.
Jesus talked a lot about the kingdom of God (Heaven). His first words recorded by Mark are, "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news." Jesus came from heaven as the God-man (since he himself claimed to be God--read the Gospel of John) and died and rose again to be the servant-King of his followers, whom he makes new so that they want to follow him and the Father by the Holy Spirit's power as their one God. That's the way he as the King comes within believers and changes them to make them obedient to his rule.
Also, read the whole context of any passage you quote, and you will find its true meaning. For example, the God of the Bible is separate from and yet totally involved in ruling the universe. He is three Persons in one all-powerful God. These clear teachings of the Bible differ totally from the God of Hinduism, who, I believe, is identified with all things.
Another difference is good and bad karma in Hinduism. The Bible teaches God's grace (free acceptance [Ephesians 2:1-10], which we cannot earn by our good life) that accepts believers because of Jesus' perfect life and his death to take away the guilt of believers' imperfections.
In fact, the Bible's spiritual teachings are completely different in that and other ways from all of the belief systems with which I'm familiar. That's one of the reasons that I believe that God revealed himself there, because no human minds could have thought him up. It's much easier to conceive of a God who is the same as the universe, which we can see. Yet, God himself overcomes that obstacle by putting his kingdom within believers.
Am I misrepresenting Hinduism? If so, please enlighten me. I'm looking forward to your response.In the smriti texts, in marked contrast to earlier vedas, god is described as much more personal, entering into the lives of humans by creating them, loving them, inspiring them to worship and ultimately, through divine grace, saving them.
The earlier shruti vedas and the later smriti texts can be compared to Old Testament and New testament of Christians in their philosophy in terms of approaching god.
Hindus often recite verses from the smriti texts in an individual's daily meditation. The stories from these texts are repeated by priests, grandmothers and storytellers as a means of inspiring moral living.Do those newer Scriptures teach a three-Person-in-one God and a God-man coming from heaven to rescue us from our own mess. luvpassion? If not, then there is still a big gulf between the New Testament and those texts.
Jesus was an enlightened one a knower of god or Brahma or Brahmin.
The philosophy is similar and some say he took his philosophy from the Hindu masters like the Buddha,I clearly see the similarity.
There is only one god and man since eons has been fusing with the Light and spreading knowledge of it.
God is our source something we all come from and go back to.
"You can sit next to me in the kingdom of god" Jesus
Not below or above me.
"Behold but one in all things,it is the second that leads you astray" Kabir.
Does Hinduism also present a personal God of grace whose love cannot be earned by good karma or any other actions and who is separate from the universe? Does Hinduism teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three Persons but one God, who is not identified with but instead created all things and people? Does Hinduism have a Rescuer like Jesus who was fully God as he claimed in John 10 and Psalm 84 that you quoted who came from heaven to rescue humanity (all of those who trust in him)? If not, Christian and Hindu beliefs are very different.
He also said that the kingdom is within the disciples because he's the King (Ruler) of the universe and they were his subjects. He would send the Holy Spirit from the Father to them to enable them to submit to his rule. In the Bible believers in the 3-in-1 God never become God; they do, however, receive his power to live for him.
While they were following him on earth, they thought that he was going to be their earthly Ruler and that they would be his cabinet ruling with him. When he instead died, they were crushed emotionally. However, parts of three days later, their lives changed from discouragement to courage when they proclaimed that Jesus had risen from the dead and held to their testimony against all persecution. Such eyewitnesses are believable.
Does Hinduism have a Rescuer God-man who lived perfectly, died in our place to take our death penalty on himself, and rose permanently from death to give new life to his followers? There are really no comparisons between Hindu and Christian beliefs, in my opinion, only contrasts.How very selfish and egotistic this god is that no action of any kind, no matter if the action of one person saved everyone's life on the entire planet, that person will still go to hell and burn for an eternity. Who would ever want to worship such an evil entity?
Hi, Beelzedad; thanks for your comment. I, along with everyone else, was born imperfect and therefore worthy of going to hell. God gives us abundant opportunities to know him and trust him as our 3-in-1 Creator-Rescuer God, He shows his greatness in the design and beauty of his universe and reveals himself in the Bible through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Just as Jesus wept at the graveside of Lazarus over some people there who didn't believe in him and wept on Palm Sunday over unbelieving Jerusalem, so humans who reject him have brought God's judgment on themselves.
God is a perfect, just God who rightly punishes humans' consciously- chosen alienation from him, not because he wants to see them be separated from him but because they brought it on themselves. He is good, not selfish and egotistical, to ask you and me to worship and obey him as our Creator.
He's God and I'm not. If that position is his rightful place, of course I'm called to worship and obey him. That's what I believe that the Bible, his Word, says.
You are free to believe as you do. We'll find out some day which of us is right.It's easy to see who is wrong without dying, Bruce.
Here is an entity who is "asking" people to worship and obey him because he created us. What reason would an entity want to be worshiped? That alone makes no sense.
Further to that, we find that if someone doesn't want to worship this entity, they are cast into hellfire for an eternity. Why would an entity do such a thing, especially if the person did nothing intentionally to harm anyone? Why couldn't your god just be happy with that, leave them alone and do nothing instead? All that makes the god look is extremely vain, shallow and petty, a real dickhead.I value your responses even though I disagree with you, Beelzedad. If he is my Creator who is vastly superior to me as his mere creature, in my opinion he has every right to claim my worship and obedience. The Bible reveals that he is all-knowing, everywhere-present, all-powerful, and separate from and yet completely involved in ruling his creation. I have none of those qualities as a limited creature.
I believe that God loves all of his creatures (Psalm 145) and wants all of them to worship him and obey his ways, which are for our good. But he made us both creatures fully dependent on him for everything and persons with human responsibility to decide to worship and obey to him. He is incredibly patient with the human race and gave us Jesus and the Bible to show us the way to him--through his life, death, and resurrection.
However, the perfect God is also just in punishing people's disobedience, passive and active. Romans chapter one, verses 18-20, shows that humans began worshiping creation, including themselves, in the place of their Creator and that therefore they are without excuse. Sadly, humans send themselves to hell when they fail to trust in the 3-in-1 God, who grieves about their rebellion.
You are in hell right now ,dont think its some other place.
I believe on the basis of the Bible that God knows our inner lives whether we are "saving the whole world" for our reputation, other people's approval, our self-image, or honor the 3-in-1 God. Motives for actions make all the difference, I believe, Beelzedad. If we fail to trust in him and live for him, our actions, even good ones, are worthless.
I'm convinced that he sees my motives (read the Sermon on the Mount--Matthew 5-7). If my life is basically committed to him and I still have some imperfect motives, he accepts my actions for him because of Jesus' perfection, who is the Person Christians trust for the Father's approval.
If God is what the Bible says he is, he's far from egotistical, since the Father sacrificed his unique Son, Jesus, in his suffering and death to rescue imperfect me. That kind of suffering and death for me is his humiliation for all who believe and makes him a humble God rather than a proud God. That's the way I see it.So, according to you, someone who saves the lives of everyone on the planet, including YOU is a worthless gesture because they didn't accept Jesus. But, if a serial killer drops to his knees and accepts Jesus, despite the murders he committed is going to heaven while the former life saver will roast in hell.
Brilliant reasoning, Bruce.
Gods can't suffer or die, so your god never sacrificed anything.Thanks, Beelzedad, for your response. Don't you agree that everyone's life is imperfect? No one is flawlessly imperfect, including the two people in your illustration. All of us get irritated, frustrated, and even angry; but hopefully we don't take our rage out on other people like the serial killer.
It seems to me that we are all as guilty of self-centered anger as the serial killer is; Jesus says that self-centered anger of whatever degree is the same as murder, whether we do the act or not (Matthew 5:21, 22). All of our actions, Christians or not, are tainted by imperfect, selfish motives.
What I'm saying is what the Bible says that we are all worthy of going to hell. However, God sent Jesus, the God-man, to substitute himself in death for all who trust in him so that God the Judge declares them "not guilty" and right with him, not because of their good actions but because of the God-man's actions and death as their leader. Jesus could die because he was fully human and be resurrected because he was fully divine.
Those observations I believe with all my heart. You can believe or disbelieve as you wish, but I value and am interested in your responses.
Brenda, you explain the text about 'gods' very well! Amen!
in those times son of G-d means sorceror, of which he was condemned to be stoned to death. Jesus said SON OF HUMANITY...or in today's translation the Son of Man.
Cecilia, people took up stones for that purpose because Jesus claimed to be God, or so they said (John 10:22-33). His favorite title for himself was, indeed, "Son of man." Why? I believe that since the Bible came from God, we should let the Bible interpret itself, instead of imposing on it our ideas and meanings. Such is the case with the title "Son of man."
It comes from Daniel 7, which describes a symbolic vision about the countries of the world and their Judge, the Father. Verses nine and ten say, "As I [Daniel] looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened."
Then, the evil ones were thrown into flaming fire and stripped of their authority. However, a surprising event happens (verses 13 and 14): "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authoity, glory, and sovereign power; all peoples, nations, and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
Clearly, the Son of man in Daniel was divine because the nations worshiped him. This passage and Revelation 4 describe, I believe, Jesus' re-entry into heaven to sit on the throne of the universe and rule with the Father. Both send the Holy Spirit to believers to give faith and the ability to follow his ways. Jesus used that title during his ministry rather than "Messiah" or "Son of God" because his ministry and training of his followers was to be three years rather than being cut short by hysterical mobs trying to make him king of Judea. I believe that's why he spoke the way he did. My suggestion is to let the Bible interpret itself, but you can do as you wish.
That is a pretty destructive belief system you have there Bruce. You must be very angry at a lot of people to agree with the adulteress. Let it out dude.
RAmenHi, Mark. Thanks for your input. Just the opposite. After God gave me peace about my past at 43 years old, I was much calmer. The anger I felt unknowingly for all of those years was gone. I recommend psychological help and lamenting prayers in a personal relationship with God for anyone who has trouble with anger and anxiety. Previously, I would take my anger out on other drivers by yelling at them, and my voice was loud because of all that stress. God has changed me dramatically through the catharsis of prayer and his gift of the peace that transcends understanding (Philippians 4:4-7). It's far from a destructive system of belief. I did let it out, and my anger disappeared; for that result I give God all ot the credit.
Yes.. Let it out some more. Go for it. I am certain God has taken a personal interest in you... personally. You are special. Very, very special.
You are special too, Mark, since I believe that God made you like him as he did me. The trouble is that as humans we chose to not be like him anymore by running our own lives. The beauty of the Bible is that believers' special likeness to God is being restored through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as our God-man. He enables me to let it out in personal prayer to him..
Yes. You are special and will live forever - unlike everything else in existence. Very, very special. The fear of death must be strong for you.
Your troubles are not mine and I would appreciate it if you made that distinction. You are not qualified to tell me how I should be living my life. You may be a worthless sinner in need of baby jesus to live a full life. I do not need that crutch.
The evil in the bible is that it gives you a false sense of superiority which causes all the fights you see around you. You are causing that. You.
Prayers should be personal. What a shame you feel to need to pray at me. Makes me think you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
Hi friend
I don't agree with you. This is not a Islamic concept; Quran does not mention it. All spirits are God's creation and no-one ever created Him. He is everywhere with his attributes and commands:
[17:83] And We are gradually revealing of the Qur’an that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers; but it only adds to the loss of the wrongdoers.
[17:84] And when We bestow favour on man, he turns away and goes aside; and when evil touches him, he gives himself up to despair.
[17:85] Say, ‘Everyone acts according to his own way, and your Lord knows full well who is best guided.’
[17:86] And they ask thee concerning the soul. Say, ‘The soul is by the command of my Lord; and of the knowledge thereof you have been given but a little.’
[17:87] And if We pleased, We could certainly take away that which We have revealed to thee and then thou wouldst find in the matter no guardian for thee against Us,
[17:88] Except mercy from thy Lord. Surely, His grace towards thee is great.
[17:89] Say, ‘If mankind and the Jinn gathered together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even though they should help one another.’
[17:90] And surely, We have set forth for mankind in various ways all kinds of similitudes in this Qur’an, but most men would reject everything but disbelief.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=80
Please see verse [17:86] above.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimIncomplete philosophy, doesn't show the way man can fuse with the Light.
Jesus said that he is the light of the world and then proved his deity by healing a man born blind. He also puts his light in his followers to shine to others in order to attract them to Jesus to be rescued. However, the Bible, God's Word, says that when the God-man, Jesus, returns our bodies will be raised perfect, not to be fused with Jesus, but to be our bodies re-united with our souls made perfect to live in a new, perfected creation. We will not lose our identities but will no longer be far from perfect.
How do you feel about that teaching?All enlightened ones know and claim to be the Light .Many masters have performed miracles.
Countless in front are your entity,
All having an individual identity.
You are made of such fine light, love tissue,
No beginning, no end, an ageless issue.
http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/m … buddha.htm
Born a man, living as a mortal, by his own exertion he attained the supreme state of perfection called Buddhahood, and without keeping his Enlightenment to himself, he proclaimed to the world the latent possibilities and the invincible power of the human mind. Instead of placing an unseen Almighty God over man, and giving man a subservient position in relation to such a conception of divine power, the Buddha demonstrated how man could attain the highest knowledge and Supreme Enlightenment by his own efforts. He thus raised the worth of man. He taught that man can gain his deliverance from the ills of life and realize the eternal bliss of Nirvana without depending on an external God or mediating priests.
This is what Jesus tried to do as well awaken man to the god in him.
Similarity between Krshna and Christ
The name Christ comes from the Greek word "Christos," which means "the anointed one." The word Krishna in Greek means the same. Indeed, Krishna says of himself, "I am the self abiding in the heart of all creatures; I am their beginning, their middle, and their end." Krishna also declares, "I am the light in the sun and moon... the light of lights." He is also called, "the Resurrection and the Life."Hi friend mohitmisra
The original LIGHT is the Creator- God Allah YHWH; His Messengers Prophets become relatively enlightened since they receive Word of Revelation from Him; the ORIGIN or SOURCE of LIGHT remains the Creator- God Allah YHWH; in that sense they become in the IMAGE of GOD, yet remaining human beings.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimNo friend paarsurrey enlightenment is dying and becoming this Light in totality, its your source.
"Unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things " Holy Quran
God is your home, your source, you.
The messengers are communicating with the light which reveals certain things to them.
in that sense they become in the IMAGE of GOD, yet remaining human beings.- perfect.Hi friend mohitmisra
Thanks for your appreciation.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimRemember, there is no perfection in human beings regardless of what they do or think.
Therefore, your ideology/way of thinking is faulty to begin with.If I were you, I wouldn't agree to hastily. You are not much better than him.
Hi friend Cagsil
If I see a thing to be correct; I agree with it. If I make a mistake in understanding I may make an apology; and agree with the correct concept.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimI have to say that the forums became more interesting since we have had peaceful Muslims adding their 'two apputh'to the mix!
The Bible shows that God is everywhere (Psalm 139) and that he is completely separate from his universe in a spiritual place called heaven. He is a spirit, not a physical being, though Jesus still has his resurrection, human body in heaven. I believe in the 3 Persons in one God revealed in the Bible, and all three Persons are everywhere and beyond the universe. What an amazing God the Bible reveals! He is beyond the reach of humans to understand completely, because he's God and we're not.
Has anyone defined DIVINE?
Pronunciation: \də-ˈvīn\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): di·vin·er; di·vin·est
Etymology: Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god — more at deity
Date: 14th century
1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>
2 a : supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b : heavenly, godlike
— di·vine·ly adverb
Diety:
Pronunciation: \ˈdē-ə-tē, ˈdā-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural de·i·ties
Etymology: Middle English deitee, from Anglo-French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English Tīw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god
Date: 14th century
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being
2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
So my answer based on definition is Jesus is both.Thanks, cecilia, for your input. As a believer in the God who inspired the Bible, I believe in interpreting biblical words the way they are used in the Bible, not the way people ordinarily use words, the way the dictionary does.
As a result, Jesus' divinity or deity is defined by the Bible itself as one of the three Persons of the true God, who himself is one, not three Gods. Confusing? I've never figured God out. I don't think that we can, because he's God and we're mere creatures, though long ago humans attempted to take his rightful place in running our own lives. That move sure turned out well :-)! I think that you would find it interesting to read the whole Gospel of John through, preferrably in one sitting and to notice how Jesus describes himself, his Father, and the Holy Spirit. The rest of the Bible adds that God is one, not three. (See Deuteronomy 6:4,5; James 2:19, for examples.)Just to clarify, are you saying that Jesus was supremely good, ie. superb, like a pie?
Hi Bruce,
It takes a whole lot of courage to write a Hub about the divinity of Christ. It is perhaps the most controversial element of our faith in the present. You can get away with almost anything else, but this statement. Paul knew that I think - and he never stops preaching it.
There is of course 1) the divinity of Christ as something to be believed. It is clearly biblical teaching.
2) the way to apprehend it. It is beyond reason - though not a complete enigma - and Paul in scripture almost always sings, quotes a hymn when he talks about it. I preached a sermon ion Trinity Sunday quoting Rom. 9:5 - When Paul reaches that point, he worships in his speech, he starts to sing.
of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
But how to explain this? It takes more than a world full of Hubpages, right?
Thanks, brother.Thanks, brother. The Apostle John would said that if he were alive today. To the 3-in-1 God be all ot the honor and credit! I'll be away from the Web for awhile and plan to come back in awhile. You folks have made a good conversation. Thanks to all of you.
Thanks to you too. I love being validated. Sorry for your loss.
ciao
If you study the symboligy of the cultures that Christianity came from you get the impression that Christ was not a person at all.Certain aspects of human nonphysical make up and there integration,function,and direction are and have been Revealed time and again through out history by personalities[some real,some symbolic]that serve to advance understanding and individual growth in terms of our main function on this planet.IE:We are conductors of consciousness.That is our function.The more we increase our consciousness the more aware we become.Awareness peals away the layers of the programed illusions we labor under.Since reality is nothing more than a collapsing of infinite possibilities into a singular experience that exists only as long as it is observed then returns to it's natural state,the question of real or not real is more a question of how deep is your belief in any concept that enters your mind[which has yet to be located in the human body]and how firm is your commitment to it.When a person insists that there reality is THE reality they are either arrogant or ignorant.Neither option is palatable to a thinking human being.
Work to Increase your consciousness which will reward you with a greater awareness.The means is irrelevant.Christ may well be a symbol representing a lesson that inner exploration,integration,and Seeking,lead to greater consciousness.
I will now take my medication,put my helmet back on,and return to my padded cell.
caio bella personas.Hi, Cheaptrick. Thanks for your interesting, humorous comment! I don't insist in God's reality beyond myself; I believe that he exists because the Bible, which I believe to be the main way he used to reveal himself. Do they allow you to have a Bible in your padded cell :-)? My suggestion is that you might read it, starting with the four Gospels and then going back to Genesis and the Old Testament for background to Jesus' divine-human life and ministry. Then, you could read the rest of the New Testament as the explanation of Jesus. Prove to yourself whether the Bible is from God.
Just my suggestion.Sorry for the late reply[if you even read it].I have read many versions of the bible[some in the original language]and was drawn to what it's history and origin was.The 27 books were originally chosen buy the bishop of Alexandria.There were hundreds of documents written during Christ's life and after his death.Only a few of Paul's letters[keep in mind that Paul and peter despised each other]have been scientifically confirmed as coming from his Scribes hand.All the rest[including your bible]was pseudonymous.I suggest you broaden your study of origin and authorship in the arena of objective scholarly research.If you are correct about the exclusivity of your bible it will only help confirm it.I'm wondering if you have the courage to do it.
BTW:the only thing I cant get in my padded cell is cheese,don't get any cheese.Lots of delusional crap from uninformed fundamentalists...but no cheese.lolI too enjoy cheese...and chocolate!! I hope you can get chocolate :-)!! I believe that the Holy Spirit guided the early church to choose the 66 books of the Bible. The criterion, as I remember, was that they had to be authentically written by or told to a writer from the apostles (OT: the prophets).
Paul and Peter didn't despise each other; they had both been upstanding Jews. But Paul did confront Peter for his hypocrisy concerning the Gentile Christians; I wouldn't jump to your conclusion from that incident (Galatians 1).
The other documents either disagreed with the apostolic writings or were obviously astray from the teachings of the Apostles. Of course, Paul was an Apostle because he had met the risen Jesus in the bright light of God on the road to Damascus, an experience that Jesus used to transform him from a persecutor to a preacher of Jesus.Please provide a source reference and I will be happy to do like wise.Quoting the book in question is not a source reference.What you believe is not a source reference.Again I challenge you to do a study from a scholars unbiased point of view.You might consider taking a look at"Lost Christianities"buy Bart D Ehrman as a beginning.So far I read you as verifying the bible by quoting the bible,something odd about that...kind-a like seeing a gun rack in a BMW.There are27 books,the rest are letters,epistles,polemics,etc depending on the version you happen to be enthralled with.I shall repeat There is no verification that any of the canonical books were written dictated or given by any means to any verifiable source,Peter was an Ebionite Christian and Paul followed the Marcionite model,the two are at opposite ends of the early christian spectrum..how could they not despise each other.And No...I don't like chocolate.
I'd like to end this silly conversation with a quote"It's been my observation that when people are being funny,there deadly serious...and when there being serious,there usually pretty funny"..Can you Identify the author?I like you, cheaptrick!! We may disagree about the Bible and God, but I hope we can agree to disagree. i quote the Bible to demonstrate the Bible's truth because the eyewitnesses' accounts. Matthew and John were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life for three years; Mark and Luke were companions of the apostles who wrote down their eyewitness accounts.
There are 66 books in the whole Bible, 27 of those in the New Testament. Paul wrote to the churches that he had founded to explain the meaning of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
The Ebionites and Marcionites lived some time after Paul and Peter. Both groups were discredited by the church as disagreeing with the Bible's teachings. What teachings of Paul and Peter do you think are in agreement with those groups?
That book's author is unbiased? How do you know? He didn't live back then. How does he find his knowledge?
I believe that the Bible is history just the way anyone finds historical truth, by the eyewitnesses in the Bible. How do you know that Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great lived? By the eyewitnesses who wrote about them. The same is true of the Bible.
- WizardOfOzposted 14 years ago0
"If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses." Lenny Bruce.
Jesus in neither a god nor a son of god; he is only a human being and Prophet Messenger of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.
Sorry "unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things" Holy Quran
We come from god ,are his extension and go back to him.
Jesus is both god and son of god.
This is where Islam is an incomplete philosophy as its teaches man to be subservient to god and not how to merge with god.
Hinduism and Christianity teach meditation is the way to become the Light or god, mans source and self.I don't agree with you.
We don't come from Allah in physical and literal sense. We don't go to Allah with this body. We will be raised from the dead on the Day of Judgement for reward or the punishment for the act we did in this world. We are definitely no extension of Hims; He needs nobody for his extension; in fact He is alread Absolute and Complete, so the word extension of Him is not meaningful in His context.
ThanksIt is written that man was just a bunch of dirt until God breathed into him the brearh of life. Gods breath entered in.
That breath returns to where it came????
I gotta go do stuff today .. see ya later.will not return void, but accomplish what was intended AND prosper in the reason I was send in the first place....
Hi friends Jerami
Quran corrects Bible here; the "breath" here means He revealed Word to man or Adam.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimNo breath stands for the essence of god the life force keeping us alive.
I agree. And that life force upon our death returns from whence it came.
I some times wonder is satan might have breathed life into a clump of dirt? And it produces after "IT's" founder.
Thus the arguement about some not wanting to go back from whence it came. they are amgry cause they do not get to go to a diffrent source,
or something like that anyway.
A rattle snake can wish that it were a bunny rabbit till hell freezes over and it will still be a rattlesnake.
But Christianity teaches that it can change... And maybe it can???????????????????????????????
Allah is the source, the divine light, mans true identity.When he is with the source he is the source, he then thinks and his thoughts materialize.
Our thoughts are gods thoughts manifesting itself in this physical world.I agree with you on this idea, paarsurrey, but we disagree, I'm sure, on who God is: the 3-in-1 God of the Bible or the impersonal Allah of the Qur'an. We creatures certainly are not God. I don't understand how Hindus can believe their pantheism in the light of all of the evil in the human race. How can you, mohitmisra?
Hi, mohitmisra. Thanks for your input to our interesting discussion. I don't see where the Bible teaches that we merge with God. It seems to me that true Christians are spiritually united with Jesus (Paul's phrase, "in Christ") but remain creatures; I don't believe that the Bible teaches that we become God. What Bible passages would you point to for your belief that we become God?
On the other hand, God shares with believers some of his qualities of love, grace, mercy, justice, holiness, and righteousness. But the Bible doesn't teach that we become all-powerful, everywhere-present, and all-knowing, the way it does about God.
Hi, Jeremi! Thanks for joining our discussion! The Bible in Genesis is clear that Satan influenced Adam and Eve to fall into imperfection and Cain to kill his brother, Abel. Cain's line continued his rebellious ways, while Seth's line followed God. However, in chapter 6 those lines got blurred through intermarriage, and Noah and his family were alone in their devotion to the true God.
When God revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he established a personal and communal relationship (covenant) with them and their descendents, from whom Jesus came as the God-man. Satan tried to tempt and get Jesus to stay away from dying on a cross to take away our just death penalty. But he remained true to the Father and died as human but came back to life in his human body because he was and is God, as he claimed.
We believe that he is with us always and sends us on our mission to represent him as he himself said in Matthew 28:18-20, after his resurrection and before he re-entered heaven.
The question that I began with way up yonder hinges on whether you take the Bible seriously as God's way to reveal himself. There is much evidence in the Bible to show that that book is just what it says it is--God's Word to us.Hi Bruce,
Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. (King James Version)
The Light is God.
"I am thy shield and thy exceedingly great reward." Holy Bible
Totally merging with god on death.
"You can sit next to me in the kingdom of God"Jesus
Become god the light on death.
There are three stages of life, man, god-man and god.
Even though a man is awakened or enlightened he still understands his restrictions while he is in the body.
So the greatest of prophets like Jesus couldn't understand why he was being crucified , he thought god would save him from the torture
"Father why have you forsaken me?" Jesus on the cross
Yet Jesus is god.Thanks for your interesting comment. Not one of those passages that you quote says that we merge with God. We go to be with him if we trust in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as the way to God the Father.
However, he does say in Matthew 6:22 that if our eyes are good, we will be filled with light. Look at the verses before and after that verse to know Jesus' meaning. He calls us to avoid storing up perishable treasures on earth but rather store treasures in heaven in verses 19-21 and to avoid being mastered by money ("mammon"), only by God.
His teachings are very down-to-earth in warning against addiction to earthly desires and recommending that we replace those objects of our desires with God, a change that will make our eyes good to let in his light. John 8 and 9 quote Jesus as claiming that he is the light of the world and proceeding to heal a man born blind, a major miracle, to show his Godhood as one with the "I AM" who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3 and 4).
Please take the context into account in interpreting any Bible verse, since God was the whole Bible's source, I believe. What you believe, however, is up to you.will repeat the passages contemplate on them, to get the meaning.
"I am thy shield and thy exceedingly great reward." Holy Bible
"You can sit next to me in the kingdom of God"Jesus
We go to be with him if we trust in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as the way to God the Father.
Jesus was a messenger, a prophet, a guide you need to walk the path he spoke of -meditation, no attachments.
I am enlightened like Jesus and understand his words perfectly.
"When do I see,meet god,
"Whenever you really decide to,
When you want nothing" From Ponder Awhile
Wow! Some thread this
It seems a characteristic of being human is that we have the ability to accept fantasy as fact, and some of us go on to make statements grounded on such fantasies as provable
This signals to me that those who promote such fantasies as fact demonstrate an inability to see themselves as they are - having the capacity to be a fully functioning human person, yet denying to themselves that capacity, and telling all and sundry about their deficiency
There is nothing that we can do that is not a characteristic of being human, we do not have any capacities for doing anything that we can not do as a human person.
It therefore seems to me tragic that some persons ascribe to the influence of some 'other than human' influence that is only reachable through spirituality, their own ability to make decisions as to how they are going to run their lives.
I encourage all those of you who claim a spiritual component to your own [or someone else's] life to own your own power as a human person, for yourself, by yourself and of yourself.
Don't give away your power to those who would have you believe you do not have it within you, and who would have you believe that you have to call on 'another power', however they describe it.
I encourage you to abandon all claims of spirituality, an out-dated concept that has historically been used by those in power who seek to manipulate those they seek to control.
I encourage you to claim your humanity in every decision that you make and in everything that you doNicely said. But I personally wish the word spiritual was not mixed up with religion. Spirit being the very essence of our individual self, and collective selves. Modern dogmatic religion is the greatest disempowering load of misinterpreted hogwash - surely set up by the Arhimanic agenda , proof of which is seen on the religious forum.
Spirituality is the crux of religions.The prophets were spiritual masters and religions are based on their great spiritual knowledge.
Thanks for your interesting input, drkk and Jewels! It seems to me that you believe in humanism, trust in self and other humans for meaning in life. It is also a set of beliefs the way Christian trust in the God of the Bible is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you be so sure that your philosophy trusting in humans, including yourself, is valid? The Bible teaches that humans after their creation have become very imperfect in their wandering from their Creator. How can you be so sure that your trust in yourself and other people is correct and that the Bible's view that God rules all people and calls them to believe in and follow his will is wrong?
My point is that both Christian and humanistic beliefs trust in someone for meaning, Christians in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible and humanists in themselves and other humans.
Both are positions of faith. Jewels, it sounds as if you also believe in humanism, which I believe to be a religion or set of spiritual beliefs. It isn't an organized religion with institutions, but its faith in humanity is a set of religious beliefs.
Could you elaborate on your comment about "modern dogmatic religion"? Also, what is an "Arhimanic agenda"? I just want to understand your comments better.Thanks, drkk, for your comment. Would you describe your beliefs as secular humanism? It seems to be that set of beliefs in our humanity without God. But I suggest that you examine your comments as a set of beliefs, just as Christians have a different set of beliefs. How can you have faith in humanity's goodness with all the evil that's going on in the world today? My point is we have faith in two different objects, humanity and God. What I'm interested in is, Why do you put your faith in humans and yourself? Is there a possibility that humanity is defective and flawed and that humanists' faith in reason and common sense is imperfect too?
Just curious.
Was Jesus Divine or only human? I don't know, but shouldn't we treat each other as divine? Wouldn't that make the world a better place? Discover the Buddha nature in each of us. Become a Buddha. Become a Christ. Isn't that what Jesus wanted of his disciples?
Yep, but modern Fundamental Christians don't acknowledge a Buddha as similar to this Jesus dude, and therefore have deviated from the original teachings, even though those teachings came from Sanskrit writings. The "Be as Jesus is" is lost on the stubborn righteous and have chosen to believe Jesus is going to do it for them. Extremely smart plan for the government of the time to create sheep. It's worked beautifully.
Hi, Jailwriter! Thanks for joining our discussion! I invite you to read the New Testament beginning with the gospels. There, you will discover, I believe, that Jesus claimed to be the God who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3) but a different Person. He also said that he would send another Person to believers as their Counselor, the Holy Spirit. Read the Gospel of John, chapter one, where the Word is with God and is God and became human, showing his divine brightness to his disciples (on the mountain as his transfiguration). Such teachings are not like Buddhism, which is a philosophy that came out of Hinduism. At least, that's my understanding; correct me if I'm wrong.
Jewels, we believe in "this Jesus dude" because he claimed to be the great "I AM" revealed to Moses and backed it up with amazing miracles and his death in our place and his resurrection from the dead, that were witnessed by many.
I'm not a "Fundamental Christian" but a biblical Christian whose faith is built on the Bible as the book that reveals God to us. No one forced me to believe in it, but God changed my life and thinking from total unbelief to belief in that God.
You're right that Jesus does rescue us completely because we are born alienated from God. Only he can change our lives to believe in him through his Holy Spirit by Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
To what Sanskrit writings do you refer? The Old Testament was written in Hebrew by the Hebrew prophets, including Moses, and the New Testament was written in Greek by the Apostles who were eyewitnesses of Jesus and by people who got their information from the Apostles. I believe that God enabled them to write what he wanted to convey to us. I invite you to read the New Testament to find out for yourself. I recommend the New International Version as an accurate version directly from the best manuscripts closest to the original writings.
Thanks again for responding.Bruce_Leiter read other philosophies to see their similarities and then you get a better understanding of Jesus and God.
You're right that Jesus does rescue us completely because we are born alienated from God. Only he can change our lives to believe in him through his Holy Spirit by Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
This is such nonsense.
Read the Holy Veds, Holy Rmayana Holy Bhagwat Gita to start with.I would like to read them, mohit, but I will compare them with the Bible. Other writings do reveal to some extent the God of the Bible. However, since I believe that the true God revealed himself in the Bible, I cannot accept the idea that God is everything and everyone, since the Bible reveals him as a separate, 3-in-1 God who is our Creator and our Rescuer through Jesus as the God-man. I'm sure that there are many good morals that are similar to the Bible's teachings, but I will also discover the contrasts, starting with the kinds of Gods about which both Scriptures teach.
Perfect JaiWriter that's the message f the prophets including Jesus.
He will have to come again to reiterate this message and many dont get it.
Hi friends
With all courtesy and civility I would say that Jesus was only human and did not have and could not have an iota of god-ness. The Christians know only a part of Jesus’ life tailored only to make them believe the creeds invented by Paul and imported from the pagans; and the Church and the scribes fell prey to his cleverness and deceived the sheep while the shepherd was away in India.
With the result that "Christianity" founded by Paul became Anti-Christ and spread in the world with the killings of millions and enslavement of millions and genocide of million. The time is now come that the world knows the truth face to face; with the advent of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908; the Anti-Christ is to be exposed by rational reasons and peaceful dialogue.
Please don’t mind; I am only expressing my faith; others are welcome to differ with me with solid reason.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimAgain I repeat this s where Islam is an incomplete philosophy and is too rigid.
All is god "i tell ye you are all gods" Jesus
"The kingdom of heaven is within" Jesus understood his divinity and tried to wake man up to theirs. You need to meditate and wake up to who you really are paarsurrey and then you will understand god as well.
"I was searching for myself and I found god, I as searching for god and I found myself" Buddhist saying.
The truth is right now you have heard and read about god but haven't come across god yourself.
I don't agree with you.
There is no rigidity in Islam; only that the Truth is and has to be ONE.
[2:59] And remember the time when We said: “Enter this village and eat therefrom — wherever you will — plentifully; and enter the gate submissively and say: ‘God! forgive us our sins.’ We shall forgive you your sins and We shall give increase to those who do good.”
[2:60] The transgressors changed it for a word other than that which was said to them. So We sent down upon the transgressors a punishment from heaven, because they were disobedient.
[2:61] And remember the time when Moses prayed for water for his people, and We said: ‘Strike the rock with thy rod,’ and there gushed forth from it twelve springs, so that every tribe knew their drinking place. ‘Eat and drink of what Allah has provided, and commit not iniquity in the earth, creating disorder.’
[2:62] And remember the time when you said: ‘O Moses, surely, we will not remain content with one kind of food; pray, then, to thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of what the earth grows — of its herbs and its cucumbers and its wheat and its lentils and its onions.’ He said: ‘Would you take in exchange that which is inferior for that which is superior? Go down to some town, and there is for you what you ask.’ And they were smitten with abasement and destitution, and they incurred the wrath of Allah: that was because they rejected the Signs of Allah and would kill the Prophets unjustly; that was because they rebelled and transgressed.
[2:63] Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
[2:64] And remember the time when We took a covenant from you and raised high above you the Mount, saying: ‘Hold fast that which We have given you and bear in mind what is therein, that you may be saved.’
[2:65] Then you turned back thereafter; and had it not been for Allah’s grace towards you and His mercy, you would surely have been of the losers.
[2:66] And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them: ‘Be ye apes, despised.’
[2:67] Thus We made it an example to those of its time and to those who came after it, and a lesson to those who fear God.
[2:68] And remember when Moses said to his people: ‘Allah commands you to slaughter a cow,’ they said: ‘Dost thou make a jest of us?’ He said: ‘I seek refuge with Allah from being one of the ignorant.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=58
Please see verse [2:63] with the verses in the context; the flexibility is there but the truth has to be told.
So flexibility with truthfulness is the word
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim"Unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things" Allah, Shiva, God , Brahma the Light is my source my home, I am and extension of the light, everything is an extension of the light.
"the Light that shines beyond the stars
is the same in my heart."
Have you come across the Light or God or Allah paarsurey?
Its rigid in the sense they say all is god but refuse to say man is god at the same time.
Here Hinduism and Christianity is more broad minded and accepts both points as the truth..Hi, mohitmisra. Thanks again for your part in our varied discussion. The Christianity that is based squarely on the Bible is different from Hinduism in that Jesus said that he is the light of the world darkened by human imperfection and that his followers were his light in the world showing him to everyone.
The Bible says that God is three Persons in one God, mysterious yet revealed in that book by God's guiding its writing. Jesus pre-existed his birth forever with God the Father, and he took on a perfect human nature with his God-nature to rescue imperfect humanity, all who will believe in his life, death, and resurrection to give them life that will last forever.
The Bible does not picture humans in general the same as God, nor do we become God through Jesus' rescue. We become like God the way we made us in the beginning. Also, we are not reincarnated, nor do we earn our rescue by good karma. It's all a matter of God's grace (free acceptance completely unearned by us and only earned by Jesus).
I'm interested in your response, because I want to understand your comments more. Thanks again.Hi Bruce,
"The Light that shines beyond the stars,
I the same in my heart." Ponder Awhile
I say I am the Light like all enlightened ones have -
Another example for Hinduism and the Light
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna
"They portray him in various perspectives: a god-child, a prankster, a model lover, a divine hero and the Supreme Being"
Bhagwat Gita- http://www.asitis.com/7/8.html
O son of Kunti [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.
The light of the sun and the moon is also originally emanating from the brahmajyoti, which is the impersonal effulgence of the Lord
I am the original fragrance of the earth, and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives, and I am the penances of all ascetics.- Krishna
The Bible says that God is three Persons in one God, mysterious yet revealed in that book by God's guiding its writing. Jesus pre-existed his birth forever with God the Father, and he took on a perfect human nature with his God-nature to rescue imperfect humanity, all who will believe in his life, death, and resurrection to give them life that will last forever.
Three is one, is also in Hinduism the Trinity Brahma, Vishna and Shiva.
Creator, Preserver , Destroyer.
The jurisdiction of Krsna consciousness extends everywhere, and one who knows Krsna consciousness is blessed. Those who do not know Krsna are in illusion, and so knowledge of Krsna is liberation, and ignorance of Him is bondage.
Many enlightened one all over this planet including many Hindu saints.
Reincarnation existed in Christian philosophy was was banned to try to make Christianity more exclusive ad not a copy of this everlasting truth.
The Bible does not picture humans in general the same as God, nor do we become God through Jesus' rescue
Jesus was and enlightened one a prophet who spread knowledge of the Light or god. He couldn't be more direct when he says 'i tell ye you are all gods" " The kingdom of god is within" Jesus
" When they eye be single" Jesus
"One pointed concentration between eyebrows" Patanjali Hindu mystics
Even the path prescribed is identical.Mohit, if you quote the Bible, at least quote all of the Bible instead of only certain verses out of context. For example, in John chapter one God reveals to the Apostle John these words about the Word who was God and with God--two Persons in one God (with the Holy Spirit a third Person in chapters 14,15, and 16): "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light" (verses 3-8).
God's point is that in the Bible there is a clear line separating God and his creation. Even the prophet John the Baptist was not God and would never be. However, he testified to Jesus as God, that is, the Word who was God become flesh and living awhile among us (verse 14). Again, Christian and Hindu beliefs are radically different. I choose to believe the former ones, as you know. It's up to you what you believe.
Thanks for your contribution."The kingdom of god is within you "Jesus
God resides in every human,waking up to that experience is termed as enlightenment.
Jesus was an enlightened one like many before and after him.
"I was searching for myself and I found god,I was searching for god and I found myself" Buddhist saying.
"and that life was the light of men" this Light or god permeates everything including all men.
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
This is "when they eye be single" one pointed concentration between ones eyebrows.In the darkness one sees the Light.
e. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light" (verses 3-8)
Just a figure of speech,the basic fabric of this universe permeating everything is the divine light or god.
Then John the Baptist wasn't enlightened and didn't know god for himself..
"I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus
Lord Krishna declared himself as the Supreme Father:
“It should be understood that all species of life, o son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed giving father” (Bhagavad-Gita 14.4)
Lord Krishna declared himself as the Supreme Creator:
“Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being, moving or unmoving, that can exist without me” (Bhagavad-Gita 10.39)
Lord Krishna declared himself as the Supreme Controller:
"I give heat, and I withhold and send forth the rain" (Bhagavad-Gita 9.19)
“With a single fragment of myself I pervade and support this entire universe”(Bhagavad-Gita 10.42)
Lord Krishna declared himself as the Supreme Maintainer:
“I enter into each planet, and by my energy they stay in orbit” (Bhagavad-Gita 15.13)
Lord Krishna is Omnipresent: meaning he is present everywhere.
“I am the supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities, I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings” ( Bhagavad-Gita 10.20)
Lord Krishna is omnipotent, meaning he is the greatest:
"There is no truth beyond Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread"(Bhagavad-Gita 7.7)
Lord Krishna is Omniscient: meaning he knows the past, present, and the future:
“O Arjuna, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities" (Bhagavad-Gita 7.26)
“Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot!"(Bhagavad-Gita 4.5)
Lord Krishna declared himself as the Only God:
“Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way. I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize my true transcendental nature fall down.” (Bhagavad-Gita 9.24)
"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." (Bhagavad-Gita 18.66)
There are two I's the small i representing man and the big I representing god.Man is both I's.
Thank you, paarsurrey, for your opinion. Everyone is entitled to theirs on this post. I believe that Paul did not invent Christian belief; God did. Why do I make this statement? The book of Acts, written by Dr. Luke, and Paul's own letters show that he was a strict Pharisee persecuting Christian believers by killing them and throwing them into prison until God turned him into Jesus' prophet and preacher.
His credentials as a prophet of God are clearly shown in the Bible by his dramatic conversion and his proclaiming that he met the risen Jesus on the Damascus road in a life-altering experience. He testified to that experience in the face of opposition that threatened his health and life from the Jews, Greeks, and Romans. Why do the Muslims reject Paul as a prophet?
If we had made up that story and faced our death if we didn't recant it, we surely would have given it up. Furthermore, Paul was not the head of the early church. The original apostles were with James, Jesus' half-brother, having the final say, not Peter or Paul (Acts 12).
2 Timothy 3:16,17, where God inspired Paul to write that all (every) Scripture was God-breathed.
Paul was talking about the scriptures that were present at that time.
I don't think that he was considering his own words to be considered as scripture. Just a thought.
I am not saying that his speach was or was not truth, but only that he was not testifying unto himself as his own words as scripture.That's true, Jerami. The people who wrote the Bible weren't always aware of God's guidance, but he was guiding them. But divinely-inspired Peter considered Paul's writings to be Scripture. Look at 2 Peter 3:15, 16, where Peter says that Paul wrote with the same wisdom that Peter did. "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction (verse 16)." Paul's letters are like the "other Scriptures," and we are warned to keep from distorting the Bible's teachings.
I believe that the Holy Spirit from the Father through Jesus led the early church to choose the 66 books to make the canon (the measure or standard) that consistently testifies to the 3-in-1 God in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God, the Son the second person of the Holy Trinity. At His birth on Earth Jesus was still God, but in human form so as to demonstrate His abilities for his miracles performed as well as to be accepted by man as He taught the people that which had to be teached, also in order to fulfill those prophecies of the ancient profits for-told of The Messiah. While as a human he relinquished his Godly Heavenly powers in order to demonstrate the fact that God was three distinct persons, yet one God. The final proof of that was after he ascended to heaven God The Father sent down the Holy Spirit to be with mankind and provide God's infinite knowledge, wisdom, and graces, taught by The Apostles and still being taught today by all Christians, followers of Christ Jesus.
Does it really matter if he is devine or only human if he got somethin that you need??? Are you going to ask for some of it? That is the only real issue!!!!!
What do you need from him, Jerami? It's not primarily what I need from him, since he provides everything I have. The focus is on what I can do for him in thankfulness for his changing my life.
I am a Muslim & I just want to present the Muslim view of Jesus. Jesus is deeply revered in the Islamic world & Quran calls him a Messiah. Quran also calls christians the "friends of muslims" because they are "humble and devoid of pride" Muslims believe that Jesus was born by virgin birth, the son of Miriam. God made him a prophet, gave him a lot of miracles such as speaking in a cradle, raising the dead, curing the lepers etc. When he was about to be crucified God lifted Jesus bodily to heaven where he still resides. Muslims also believe that near Armageddon Jesus will again return to lead the righteous against the Anti-Christ.
The Quran gives a somewhat detailed biography of him as muslims view him. Also keep in mind that Muhammad(S.A.W.) had little contact with christians & Muslims believe that the Quran is revealed.I know that the Qur'an implies that Jesus did not die or rise from the dead. The Christian Bible says that he did experience both events. I've read the Qur'an through and the Bible many times. Why does the Qur'an deny those key events that God used to substitute Jesus for believers in order to take away their death penalty given to all humans with Adam and Eve's disobedience and that he used to transform Christian believers from spiritual blindness to sight as in the Gospel of John chapter 9? Perhaps, Muhammed's little contact with Christians gave him an incomplete picture of their beliefs?? Jesus' death and resurrection are at the heart of the Christian faith. Otherwise, we are all condemned and lost.
Yes I know that but the difference stems from the fact that in the muslim view once Adam & Eve had asked for forgiveness from God, they were forgiven. The original sin was henceforth only a memory. It did not pass from generation to generation. All children in muslim view are born innocent. For muslims Jesus did not die because God does not abandon his prophets. In Christian views Jesus' death & resurrection leads to redemption and only accepting Jesus can bring salvation. But in muslim view no man can ever be divine & salvation is individual responsibility. Deeds as well as Words form Salvation. And as far as God is concerned any intelligent person, according to the Quran can discover God by con templating God's Ayat(signs).
Yes, BlackSun, I'm aware of Muslim beliefs, since I've studied them. Do you believe that God made humans in the image and likeness of God? We agree that God is all-knowing, everywhere-present, all-powerful, and separate from the universe yet involved in ruling it. Those qualities he did not share with humans, but he did make people able to relate with him on a personal level, even as he sought Adam and Eve after they disobeyed him.
I too believe that if Adam and Eve asked him for forgiveness, God forgave them. However, there are two aspects of our sins, guilt and pollution. Prophet Paul says that repentance and faith in the personal, 3-in-1 God and Jesus as the way to the first Person who sent Jesus to earth takes away our guilty verdict before our heavenly Judge, but that the pollution of our sins continues on to affect following generations. Adam was the head of the human race, and the pollution and guilt of his sin comes to all humans until they believe in and follow Jesus, the God-man.
I know our children were not born innocent but self-centered in thinking that the whole world revolved around them, but God changed them to trust in Jesus and to realize that God is the center of their universe, not their egos.
Yes, your description of God's rescue in both faiths is correct. Christians on the basis of the Bible believe that his rescue is a completely free gift (grace), and its God's power through Jesus by the Holy Spirit that changes them to believe and follow the Bible. Christians do good actions but not to earn or be worthy of God's acceptance. God accepts us because of Jesus' perfection and enables us to follow God's principles in the Bible. Good actions are the fruit, not the root. of God's rescue.
Thanks for your participation in our discussion, BlackSun. You can believe as you wish; I enjoy exchanging views for better understanding.
answer depends on whom u ask..for some he was divine , for some he was human , for some he was messiah and for some he never existed..so it depends on who is answering..
If you answer from the Bible, he was fully human and fully divine. I believe what it says. You can believe as you want to. Thanks for your part in our discussion, pisean.
that is exactly what i meant..if one quotes and believes in bible jesus is what you said it is..similarly if one believes in quran , jesus is messiah but not god..if one believes in torah , it is different ..if one believes in hindu scriptures..there is no mention of jesus but majority do respect him as being moral teacher..similarly atheists have their views ...so one may believe as one want to..it is perception and believe..
Hi, pisean! Christian beliefs are very different from the other sets of beliefs in several ways, I believe.
God is a mysterious three Persons in one God, not three Gods; made humans like him in some ways with reasoning, feeling, and deciding abilities and able to relate to him personally; came in Jesus Christ as the God-man (another mystery) to rescue us from our many imperfections) by grace (his free acceptance based on nothing that we could do but only on what Jesus did in living and dying for us); rose from the dead to give believers new life that can begin to follow him; and re-entered heaven to rule the universe with the first Person of God. All of these beliefs and events are unique to Christian beliefs based on the Bible. None of them could have been concocted by the human minds that wrote those books in the Bible. Therefore, God revealed himself and his history to us in the Bible. But you can believe what you want to.
Yes, like the bible the message is contemplate ..................... or die!
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
Luvly!!!Yes, I agree that the Qur'an has some violent passages, but it does also say that Mohammed should do no wrong to unbelievers. I find those differences confusing too, earnestshub.
The Bible, however, has a consistent, overriding theme of love for God and neighbors, even the foreigners in the Promised Land. God did order Israel to kill all of the Canaanites, but in Genesis 15 he told Abraham that their "cup of iniquity" was not yet full. The result was that he gave them the 400 years that Israel spent in Egypt to give the Canaanites a long chance to repent of their extreme wickedness, in which they were even sacrificing their children and committing sexual immorality as part of their worship.
Then, the God of justice used Israel to execute his justice. Jews and Christians since then have had no right sending armies against non-Christian nations, because Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world and corrected Peter's use of violence at Jesus' arrest.
The Inquisition and the Crusades were horrible blunders that disregarded the Bible's teachings, and Christians should apologize for them. I do apologize for my ancestors' perpetration of those sins. It's not by violence but by God's power that the Christian faith spreads.
Nobody is going to find the answer so long as you keep to the outside of the cup.
It's good that you came to the belief that Jesus is devine. He, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one.
- AKA Winstonposted 14 years ago0
(Is Jesus divine or only human?)
You posit this as a logical fallacy, the false dilemma, as you have left out my choice: C) None of the above.
There is simply not a shred of historical evidence that any person named Jesus ever lived. Not a single contemporary of his wrote about him. No towns, villages, or arches have his name carved into them. Even though they were meticulous historians, not a single entry from the Romans about a trial and death of anyone by the name of Jesus.
Jesus is a concept - a creation of human minds.Why would their be any historical evidence of Jesus considering that his cult never took off until after he was dead? The disciples would have hidden his body to promote the idea of his having been ressurected, I am not religious but assume their could not have been so much smoke without fire. The real question isn't so much about wether or not he existed as wether or not he was 'The Son of God', as opposed to the idea that we are all Gods children.
Thanks for your input, fallenangel666. What makes you call Christianity a cult? It seems to me that a cult controls its members with a person who presents his own ideas rather than biblical ideas and exerts brainwashing techniques in separating his following from any other influences with a lot paranoia. I've never known any truly Christian group to have those qualities. Cults have separated themselves from Christian churches and change the mysteries of the Bible with their own rationality.
I believe that the eyewitnesses Matthew and John wrote down their experiences with Jesus, and other apostles told their stories to Mark and Luke, who wrote those experiences in their gospels. How do you determine the truth of ancient events but by the eyewitnesses of those events? Jesus' eyewitnesses were willing to suffer persecution and even death to maintain their testimonies to Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and return to heaven. If we can't believe such witnesses, we can't trust any.
When you think about it, how could anyone come up with a God-man who fulfilled prophets' predictions hundreds of years old; did amazing miracles; died a criminal's death to take away our death penalty; rose from the dead to give believers new life; returned to heaven to rule the universe with the first Person of God; and return yet in the future to perfect the universe and believers? No one could have thought up such a God-man Rescuer and those events. The writers of the Bible must have been guided by God to write it, since no one could have dreamed it up. That's why I believe it. You can believe as you wish.
I believe that we are all God's creatures and that I am his adopted child through Jesus' accomplishments above. That's the Bible's teaching.Thanks for your participation, AKA! Why do you need corroboration from other historical sources? They wouldn't think that a Jewish teacher who riled the Jews' leadership and was crucified by the Romans was important enough to include in a history. The Romans were always crucifying Jews, a thousand Galileans a few years earlier.
However, the Jewish historian Josephus did mention him. When I started to investigate Jesus' claims to be God at the age of 16, I was impressed with the many prophets' predictions about the Messiah that were clearly fulfilled in Jesus' life, even the place of his birth, Bethlehem, even though Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth. Those prophecies happened from 1,000 to 400 years before Jesus was born.
However, the event that sealed my commitment to Jesus as the God-man was his resurrection. Eyewitnesses saw him die (see John 19:28-37). John is emphatic about his death and resurrection (John 20).
Now, John and the other disciples were devastated by Jesus' death because they and the rest of the Jews expected a Messiah to come who would chase out the Romans and rule as an earthly king. Three days later, those same defeated disciples went out preaching that Jesus not only died for believers but also rose from the dead to give his believers courage and words to proclaim Jesus as the risen God-man.
Those same ordinary men spread the good news about Jesus against all the opposition of Jews, Greeks, and Romans. Peter was crucified upsidedown because he didn't feel worthy of the crucifixion that Jesus experienced. John was exiled to a penal colony on Patmos. They all held to their testimonies that they experienced Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. As I considered these facts of history, God convinced me of his reality as three Persons in one God, that Jesus was indeed the God-man as he claimed, and that the Bible that testifies to that amazing God and those events have transformed my life and continues to transform it.
You can believe as you wish, AKA, but that's how God convinced me about Christians' beliefs.
- AKA Winstonposted 14 years ago0
@fallenangel666,
Here lies the difference between us. I use facts to make a case:
"Not a single contemporary of his wrote about him. No towns, villages, or arches have his name carved into them."
You, however, make assumptions and present those as fact:
"The disciples would have hidden his body to promote the idea of his having been ressurected"
I will leave it to others to decide who is more rational.I apologize that it took so long for me to respond, AKA; my computer was down.
My point is that there is a lot of evidence in the Bible to point to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection that demonstrate his deity. I didn't write that '"the disciples would have hidden his body to promote the idea of his having been resurrected," because the Bible says nothing about hiding Jesus' body. They buried his body in a new tomb before the Sabbath started at sundown. Otherwise, they would have been "unclean" and unable to worship in the temple during Passover.
I don't believe that God can be confined to the limits of our rationaliy. He is supra-rational, that is, above our limited reasoning powers. Isaiah quotes God as saying, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways." (Isaiah 55:8). The verses around that verse describe God as giving his gifts freely without our earning them (not a human thought) and his forgiving nature, which was shown through Jesus' perfect life that we could never live, his death as believers' substitute taking away their death penalty, and his resurrection that gave them eternal life.
That is what I believe on the evidence of the Bible. How does anyone find out the truth of any ancient documents? It's only by verifying the validity of the eyewitnesses who wrote it. We wouldn't know any ancient history without those witnesses. The fact that John was exiled to a prison island because of his testimony to Jesus' death and resurrection shows me that his witness to those events is true, because he never gave up his testimony in the face of opposition. He wrote in Revelation 1:9, "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." Then, he saw those mysterious visions that take up the rest of the Book of Revelation, including one in which Jesus' deity is shown (1:12-20).
I hope that these comments clarify my beliefs for you, AKA.
he was a man.
you are your own savior, you can look to "jesus" as an example of being your own savior and the PATH to heaven...
but worshipping him as a deity is just as good as worshipping a golden calf, no good at all.Thanks, double_trick, for your input. Why do you make those comments? I'm curious about the reasons for people's beliefs and about where they're coming from. More understanding is what I seek on my posts. I look forward to your response. You might check out my other responses to people.
AKA Winston wrote:
(Is Jesus divine or only human?)
You posit this as a logical fallacy, the false dilemma, as you have left out my choice: C) None of the above.
There is simply not a shred of historical evidence that any person named Jesus ever lived. Not a single contemporary of his wrote about him. No towns, villages, or arches have his name carved into them. Even though they were meticulous historians, not a single entry from the Romans about a trial and death of anyone by the name of Jesus.
==================================================
This proves that somebody went to a lot of trouble to collect everything they can find about him.
Which means that he was an important man.
Sometimes your responses are blatant Rationalizations.
Could you entertain the thought for one second that maybe, just maybe, the authors of the bible were frauds?
Jesus is not an important man. He is an important myth or delusion, and to deluded Christians, the object of their delusion is important.I try to keep an open mind to many possibilities. I listen to many opinions. I consider all the facts that I have been exposed to, Then I run a blatant rationalization system through my mind to approximate probabilities.
Having read many places that The Catholic Church was gathering every piece of antiquity of this era that they could find, and do have many, many artifacts in their "Private" collection; I would betcha a nickel that you can find everything that you are looking for in their basement.
And after careful analysis of all the facts, how can you come to the conclusion that Jesus, or any man, was the son of a God?
If you consider the laws of odds and probabilities, you would certainly ascertain that you are being dishonest.
Simply put: How many times have I seen
humans lie......................= >1,000,000
How many times have I
seen God/the son of a God(any god)...= 0
So you are saying that there is a greater probability that something that has never happened IS true, than something that happens on an astronomical scale?
Something is definitely wrong with this kind of thinking.
I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man because his eyewitnesses were willing to suffer and die for their testimonies that they witnessed his life, death, and resurrection. What more authenticity do you need? After all, the Jewish historian Josephus mentioned Jesus as having lived. But why the Romans care that a Jewish itinerant preacher was crucified outside of Jerusalem as a criminal claiming that he was God just the way Caesar claimed to be a god? Of course, they wouldn't record his death. It was unimportant compared to the thousand Galileeans who were crucified when Jesus was a boy.
You have provided no authenticity whatsoever. The alleged eyewitnesses willing to suffer and die, is nothing more than your absurd belief, and is based on nothing but your presupposition that the bible is the devine word of some maniacal sky daddy.Exactly! "The bible says god exists and as the bible is the word of god, god exists because the bible says so."
Not great logic is it?Earnestshub, thanks for your comment. All people have positions of faith or trust in something or someone to make sense of life. How about this one? "My reason says that there is no God; my reason is correct, since science hasn't discovered him; therefore, God doesn't exist because my reason says he doesn't." Is that great logic?
I believe that God is supra-rational, that is, beyond human logic. He's above our thinking but has revealed himself in the universe's design as its Creator and in the Bible as the 3-in-1 Rescuer of believers by his free acceptance (grace). Many concepts in the Bible are beyond our complete understanding, because he's God and we're not. As always, I invite your response, Earnestshub.One need not turn to science to understand the gods many believe are just myths and superstitions from ages ago. Simple logic.
That comes from a book of myths and superstitions.
Really? Aren't you talking for god now and providing us with his understanding? Or, is is just your understanding? Funny how you claim one thing yet do another.
The bible is not the word of God. You are. It says so in the bible. ;o)
The bible is not the word of God. You are. It says so in the bible. ;o)
(I meant to post this here not below)Pjk, where do you find that statement in the Bible? I believe John chapter one, which says that in the beginning of creation the Word existed with God and as God, two Persons as one God. The first Person of God made all things and people through the Word, the second Person (1:1-3). That Word joined humans and lived for awhile among us (1:14), obviously Jesus as the God-man to rescue those who trust in him. Those are my beliefs.
I started his thread to understand people's beliefs better. What is the basis of your belief that humans are the word of God. Please explain. Thanks.
Getitrite, I'm curious why you use such strong language about God. What bad experiences have you had to make you so angry? Just an observation. If God doesn't exist, why do you attack our beliefs about him so strongly? Get it off your chest. I've also had bad experiences with professed Christians, but I don't deny his existence because some of his so-called followers act badly.
See my response to AKA above, Jerami. You can believe what you want to.
When reading the above comment it is difficult to see who said what.... sorry about that.
I believe that Jesus is real !! and still believe that ..... somebody went to a lot of trouble to collect everything they can find about him.
Which means that he was an important man.
regardless of the various perspectives, isn't this thread (or comments) just a tad bit blasphemous?
Why is it blasphemous, Hubbin4V12, just because some people don't accept that Jesus is the God-man? Thanks for your response. I'm interested in your perspective.
I didn't read this whole thread to find out if anybody else has brought this little tidbit of very important info to you. I skimmed enough to see the typical arguments.
Jesus was not a man. The author's of the gospel were not John, Matthew, Mark etc. There was no man named Moses (well not the one described in scripture anyways).
The authors of scripture RELATED THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. They experienced the re-birth of God in themselves (i.e Christmas) and recorded the event in the form of a story. Every character written of in scripture represents a state of consciousness that man may enter. The whole thing is allegorical my brothers. "Jesus" refers to "God-in-you". "Satan" is not a being...it simply refers to the state of complete disbelief that God exists in and is YOU.
When you go back and re-read scripture with this in mind, suddenly it starts making sense.
And just how do you know this? And are you saying Jeebus was not devine, but merely an abstract idea in a narrative?getrite said:
"And just how do you know this? And are you saying Jeebus was not devine, but merely an abstract idea in a narrative?"
Although I have not yet personally experienced the birth from above within myself, I do believe the statements of one in whom it did take place. Specifically Neville Goddard. I believe him because when I keep what he's saying in mind when I read the bible, instead of my eyes glazing over everything starts to make sense. For example the statement "all things are possible to him who believes in the Lord". Well most people believe don't they? So why aren't all things possible to them? When you beleive that God is IN you....i.e. believe in the true "Lord"....all things ARE possible to you. DONE!
....and I'm not saying Jeebus was not devine (or Jesus was not divine) The state of Jesus is nothing but divine for it is the word describing God the father's existence within you.
Even Paul said (something like) "I will no longer consider our Lord to be a man" Can't remember the exact passage.I'm interested in your source, Neville Goddard. Who is he, and how do you know that his interpretation is correct?
When you say that using his ideas causes the Bible to make sense to you, how do you know that it all has to make perfect sense to you? Maybe, God is far above and beyond our retionality so that he remains a mystery beyond what is revealed in the Bible. He himself makes that statement in Isaiah 55:8.
I don't remember any passage in which Paul says that he no longer considers Jesus to be a man. There is a passage in which Paul describes the change that happened when the risen Jesus met him on the rosd to Damascus. Jesus changed him from a persecutor of Jesus as a blasphemer, claiming to be God, to a preacher of the divine, risen Jesus.
I'm interested in your response.
Thanks for your interesting interpretation of the Bible, pjk. I'll echo getitrite and ask you how you can be so sure of your interpretation of the Bible as merely allegory as a whole.
I don't believe that anyone could have conceived of the Creator-God being separate from his creation and yet ruling all of his creation; of that God doing 11 miracles to free Israel from Egyptian slavery, including making the water of the Red Sea stand up like walls; of that God guiding Israel into the Promised Land doing more amazing miracles; of that God guiding his speakers and writers to put even their ancestors in a negative light; of the first Person of God sending the second Person to join the human race while remaining God, live a perfect life, dying a criminal's death with the horrible suffering of the cross to rescue those who would believe in him, rising from the dead to give his believers a new birth, and returning to the first Person to rule the universe with him; and both Persons' sending the third Person, the Holy Spirit--all as one God--to give believers the free gifts of faith and rescue, not earned in the least by them. Not only that but the Bible teaches that second Person, Jesus, is alive today and will return some day to perfect his imperfect followers.
I ask you, what human consciousnesses could have thought up that scenario about the 3-in-1 God of the Bible and teachings that are impossible to follow perfectly in this life? I'm convinced that because of the eyewitnesses' accounts and because no one could have made up the Bible's sequence of events and its teachings, God had to have revealed himself on those pages. I invite your response, pjk. I'm curious.Any spiritual masterpiece like the Holy Vedas, Holy Bhagwat Gita , Holy Zend Avisths, Holy Quran, Holy Bible, Holy Gurur Granth Sahib etc etc and all the spiritual poets are the works of god through man- the enlightened ones.
"I ask you, what human consciousnesses could have thought up that scenario about the 3-in-1 God of the Bible and teachings that are impossible to follow perfectly in this life? I'm convinced that because of the eyewitnesses' accounts and because no one could have made up the Bible's sequence of events and its teachings, God had to have revealed himself on those pages. I invite your response, pjk. I'm curious."
PJK - I agree with most of the above...regardless....I ask you to consider this. The only human consciousness is the consciousness of God. There is only one consciousness...God...living each of our lives one at a time yet simultaneously. (forgetting all past lives each time....because its more fun that way ;o) Any act of man, including writing scripture, is thus actually an act of God. You are correct. What man could have conceived this divine play we find ourselves in?
You ask me "How can I be sure?" Honestly my friend, I can't. Until I experience the re-birth of God within me...until I actually have the vision of the babe in swaddling clothes... revealing himself to be the son as he calls me Father....I can't be sure. I can however beleive the testimony of one who has experienced this. When I find this testimony echoing the testimony of the various gospels in the bible I can't help but beleive I've finally found the truth...the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Like most human's discovering what he feels to be an unknown and hidden truth, I now feel a need to pass on this knowledge and thinking to any who'll listen. Just like scripture....most will turn and reject this idea....but some will stay..."for where would you have us go?"
I can't be sure....but I can be convinced.Thanks, pjk, for your enlightening response. I don't believe that humanity=God, because the Bible pictures God in eternal existence before the beginning of the universe, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). The Bible also fails to describe reincarnation of humans and other creatures. In fact, it describes clearly God's creation of us in our mothers' wombs (Psalm 139).
God has given me and other true believers the miracle of rebirth, not because we did good karma but because he wanted to create that miracle in us because of Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Look at John 19:31-37 and 20:19-31 for John's testimonies as an eyewitness to Jesus' death and resurrection, through which believers in those historical events receive rebirth.
Your beliefs in reincarnation and humanity=God are Hindu and New Age in origin, I believe, not from the Bible according to its own assumptions. It seems to me that your authority has imposed those beliefs on the Bible. I once attended a cult where the leader did the same thing, and then I learned that God revealed himself in the whole Bible. As a result, I learned to let the Bible interpret itself, since God inspired it.
I invie your further responses; it's up to you what you believe.
Why am I convinced the bible is not a secular history book but rather it is a sacred collection of divine events and guidance in the form of a play?
I've thought about this more since you "put me on the spot".
The main reason I believe this is true is because of the understanding that comes when I read scripture with this in mind.
Before I read the bible and it would say things like "all is possible to those who believe" "Believe in me and the kingdom of heaven is yours" "Your faith..." etc. I never really understood this because everybody believes right? Do you have to believe enough? or more than the other guy? Does your faith have to be stronger than it is now? I guess it must because I believe in God yet my life is still hell??? May other biblical passages would leave me saying to myself "...hunh?" Then there's all these chronological discrepancies. Science says the earth's been around for zillions of years....the bible...6000 years (I think). Why is Jesus always there but nobody can find him because...he's about his father's business...and he doesn't eat real food... Hunh? and what's with all this name changing... Saul becomes Paul. etc.
So what's going on?
Along comes this guy Neville Goddard. A man claiming to have experienced the birth of Christ from within. (I know I thought the same thing at first to.) Then he states that Jesus Christ is actually God in you...your consciousness... your imagination. After experiencing his vision he studied scripture with a passion as he discovered that it mirrored the visions happening within him. He takes you through various pieces of scripture and shows that the prophets were also describing the birth from above of God who "is dreaming" in you.
Now when I go back and read the bible...I say to myself again and again..."Oh. I get it. I know exactly what the writer of this bit is getting at. Its parabolical. Allegorical. A play."
Apparently we as man can enter any and all of the states personified by names in the bible. From Saul to Paul. From Adam to Satan.
Let he who hath wisdom understand.There you are, pjk, coming at the Bible using assumptions that are foreign to Scripture. If you will read the Bible with its own focus in mind: the 3-in-1 God (read the Gospel of John, for example) revealing himself especially in Jesus Christ and God's relationships with the human race and with his own people . I respectfully submit that your teacher and you are letting your reasoning and your prior assumptions get in the way of the clear teachings of the Bible.
Let God speak for himself in his Word, the Bible. It does not say that the universe is only 6,000 years old. Bishop Usher erroniously figured that age from the geneologies, but it's obvious that the geneologies are not modern descriptions but ancient ones making the point that Jesus Christ descended from Adam and Abraham. They skip many generations as ancient accounts to make spiritual points
That's another error people make in approaching the Bible. They often expect it to be modern history. Well, I believe that the Bible relates the actual history.of Israel, Jesus, and the church; but it often does it according to common themes, not in chronological order. After all, the prophets and preachers wrote it, not historians; it depicts history with spiritual emphases.
Bruce_Leiter,
Consider this, No one before or after has ever done all the things Jesus. Walking on water-(come on, walking on water, that only has got my attention). Raising people up from the dead, and explaining scripture as a child to those who were suppose to know scripture. To have lived a sin free life-who else has done that???Of course walking on water is symbolic my brother. Water symbolizes the knowledge of God. Now. Turn it into wine.
Of course Jesus the son raises the Father within you from the dead. Its all symbolic.
To sin is to not realize all in your world is naught but a reflection of yourself.
You will die in your sins and be brought back again and again until you realize the truth of what I'm trying to say. I've brought you a glass of water. Will you drink it? Check my hubs on Neville Goddard and Law of Attraction if your interest is piqued.Pjk, thanks for your stimulating input. I'll read your hubs with interest, but I don't agree with you (see my previous responses above). I hope that we can agree to disagree. Why couldn't Jesus have walked on water, literally, as the one who claimed to be God, who made water. Living water is another matter. At one feast Jesus stood up and declared that believers in him will have living water flowing out of them, and God gave John the insight that Jessu was referring to the Holy Spirit. You see, Scripture interprets itself without our own previous ideas.
- EnglishMposted 14 years ago0
In my opinion, there's only one answer to your question. He said it himself... seek and you will find.
It all depends where you are seeking the truth, EnglishM. I prefer to seek the truth in the Bible and in Jesus, the God-man who is that book's focus.
Bruce_Leiter wrote ..I started his thread to understand people's beliefs better. What is the basis of your belief that humans are the word of God. Please explain. Thanks.
========================================================
Rev. 4:11 ...And for thy pleasure they were created.
I think that we take this verse too lightly.
Explore the possabilities of this statement.
We were created for his pleasure, (his use?)
It is written that God breathed the greath of life into the man that he created.
The spirit of God entered into him?
If we have the breath of life in us we have god within us
God walked with Adam.
When Adam walked .. God walked.
God and Adam were as one.
When mankind entered into conflict with himself he was in conflict with God??
And then the dark side entered into the picture.Thanks, Jerami, for your response. I'm afraid that you're reading some meaning into those texts that isn't there. Your idea comes from Hinduism and the American New Age movement. People can imagine and think that God is the same as humanity, but the Star Wars "Force" is not the God of the Bible. Look at the chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation to understand your first text. In chapter four John sees a symbolic vision of the one sitting on the throne in heaven and seven spirits, generally understood as the Holy Spirit (seven being God's complete number). In chapter five an angel asks who is worthy to open the scroll unfolding human history. Verse 3: "But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth (no humans) could open the scroll or look inside."
However, one Person is worthy, "a Lamb looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne" (5:6). He is described in the previous verse as "the Lion, of the tribe of Judah, the root of David," who "has triumphed." Obviously, all of the symbolic clues add up to refer to the risen Jesus, who occupies the throne of the universe with his Father. (Compare with Daniel 7:9-14, where "a son of man" joined the Ancient of Days to rule the universe. The key is that angels in Revelation and the nations in Daniel both worship the risen Jesus as God.
My point is that Revelation 5, just after 4:11, to which you refer, makes a clear distinction between Jesus, who is worshiped, and humans, who are not worthy to rule all things, and therefore are not to be worshiped.
Genesis 1 and 2 are clear that God made humans as separate from himself from the dust of the earth, not out of himself. They then disobeyed him with their wills, thinking that they could decide for themselves what is good and evil. Human self-centeredness is the humans' rebellion against God after Satan rebelled. The human race has been in rebellion ever since then.
What's the solution for human rebellion? The perfect, 3-in-1 God cannot tolerate and must punish imperfect rebellion in humans because he's a just God. Enter Jesus, who was the God-man and who led the perfect life that we could never lead and died in believers' place, taking their death penalty on himself, so that God the Judge considers believers in Jesus not-guilty and accepts them as right with him.
The breath of life to which you refer is explained in other passages; one rule of interpretation is to let the Bible interpret itself rather than adding our own meanings to it. In Genesis 1:30 all of the created creatures have the breath of life, not just humans. In Genesis 6:17 God tells Noah that he will destroy all creatures on earth with a flood, "every creature that has the breath of life in it." Certainly, God did not kill himself with a flood, but he saved Noah, his three sons, and their families.
The Star Wars dark side of the Force is not in the Bible. Humans' rebellion was not just a dark side of God. He is perfect light and love. Humans are fully responsible for their rebellion against the perfect God, who grieves over their many imperfections, which have to be punished (Genesis 6:6). The only escape is through Jesus, not through our actions.
These are my beliefs on the basis of the whole Bible, not just individual verses taken out of context. You can believe what you want to.
If I am not mistaken the word man in this instance (Rev 5:3)was translated from the same word as man, when referring to "the man Gabriel" (Daniel 9:21)
This reference is not speaking of a human being. But that is another issue.
You said that ...one rule of interpretation is to let the Bible interpret itself rather than adding our own meanings to it.
With that in mind lets look at ...(Rev5:6) "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, "STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN"
stood a lamb as it had JUST been slain
This verse interprets itself like this, "Look, there in the midst of the crowd; I see Jesus looking bloody and beaten up, pretty much as he did when they took him down from the cross and placed him in the tomb, except he is alive and opening the seals of the book.
Once seen in this light??? It seems as though he had just gotten there! He had just arrived in heaven after the crucifixion.
So; moments earlier, John was weeping cause he didn't see his Lord Jesus Christ.
Cause Jesus wasn't on the earth, or under the earth or in heaven. He was in transit. John must have been shocked and disappointed ....
But wait he is here now !!! And he is opening the book!
That is the way that the bible interprets itself; when I read these verses.I believe this to be a very important key to understanding/misunderstanding the book of Revelation.
Read these verses, making every attempt to not misinterpret them. Look into the depth of what these scripture are telling us when it interprets itself.
Jesus Christ has been true God the Son from eternity, Who in His infinite love for mankind decided to become, simultaneously (if that is the word), fully human, like us in every way except in that He has never sinned. He took on human nature from the most lovable and humble young lady that has ever lived - who loved God so much that she agreed to do as He asked even if it meant she might be misunderstood and even slandered by those who would not believe. She remained pure and humble all the days of her life, and now Mary, the Mother of God, is with her Son.
He took on this perfected human nature so that He could feel what we felt and redeem us -- a job no one else was qualified to do but Him, as true God and true man. Only He could obey His Father perfectly, unto the same death man dies, so that we might live with Him in the same life He lives.
7/16/10 - St. Alexei's Eve. 10:32 PMSo, I'm just wondering, of the Christians posting in this hub: What indeed was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven? What was the good news? Because, really... I never hear about it in church, nor do I ever hear Christians spreading the news of it... because y'all are so focused on his "death" rather than the message he preached when he was alive... a message that he said was the reason why he even existed on earth. So, what was his message? Thanks.
the good news is ( Jesus died for you, through his grace you can go to meet him) that you Jesus for I fall short
Really? And this is what other Christians believe to be his gospel (good news) about the Kingdom of Heaven as well?
it is real, jesus looves you, and he wants to prepare a place for you, he will give you s measure of faith, peace and power to become his child
And can you cite chapter and verse where Jesus says that this is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven?
Hi, Deaconess! Thanks for coming onboard! I believe that Jesus was referring to his and his Father's rule of his universe with the Holy Spirit as the one God and his willing subjects who have trusted only in him. I was away from this hub for awhile completing my second book for a publisher. Sorry that I didn't reply sooner.
I believe that you have to take into consideration all of the Bible's teachings to understand the gospel of the kingdom. The Old Testament describes the beginning of that kingdom with Adam, his and humanity's rebellion against God's rule, God's covenant with Abraham, his rescue of Abe's descendents, the formation of Israel under God's rule, and their exit from and return to God's land--all in preparation for the coming of the Messiah-King, Jesus, to live a perfect life, die an undeservied criminal's death, and rise from the dead--all to rescue his believers. The rest of the New Testament explains the meaning of Jesus' kingship and believers' personal relationship with him.
Thanks for your input. That's what I believe; you can believe what you want to.
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