Why is the Amazon switch mandatory?

1. 78

   frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

   *apologies if in the wrong sub-forum*
   
   It's a very very simple question. I'm not supposing the answer is equally simple.
   
   I'm kinda hoping that if an answer is forthcoming, no one is (HP team/hubbers) going to say 'if you don't like it you can pack up and go'.
   
   Enforcement coupled with high-handedness does not a success make.
   
   From my side of the fence, I cannot see a single reason that would require this to be mandatory. Not a one. Hell I don't even mind if something like 'because it's better for us, the company, end of' is offered - because that's honesty.

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   1. 70

      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Topic at hand

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      1. 78

         frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks Sunforged. It's not looking like an answer is forthcoming

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   2. 73

      KeithTaxposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Soon, all your Google ads will be on HP ads only. Then HP investors will take the company public. Then we will be told to get our hubs off HP within a week or they belong to HP and we lose our copyright. Then we cry.
      
      You can see it coming. Plan accordingly.

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      1. 66

         theherbivorehippiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I don't even want to think about this! Although...I have had this feeling as though they will be taking away our option to run Adsense only. I wish someone from the staff would confirm this is not the case.

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      2. 78

         frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I am Keith (thanks). I haven't published anything since February. I'm not willing to invest time and effort in something that's so ambiguous. It wasn't (for me) before all the post-panda fallout.
         
         I like at least some level of understanding between those I partner with. That's how I saw HP when I joined.
         
         I'm disappointed that there's been no answer. Silence sometimes speaks volumes

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         1. 66

            theherbivorehippiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with not appreciating the silence. I'm torn right now because I would like to add to my profiles but at the same time, I don't want to continue to add more hubs if I'm going to have to move them. Can't seem to get a concrete answer and I don't enjoy reading between the lines. I feel as though it's just a matter of time until the only option we have is whether we stay or leave.

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      3. 60

         Elijah Sposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I also think that it all goes in that direction. Recent Amazon.com mandatory "opportunity" is just another step towards corporatist favored restructuring, pushing aside the little guy, making the company more attractive to large markets or potential clients.
         
         If my memory serves me correctly, Hubpages used to advertise its status of an "indie" type platform where each writer retains full rights to everything and has full control of monetization, all presented as advantages. Now the tides have turned, and suddenly the good thing for us is the opposite of what was before.
         
         Not that I'm complaining. I still haven't recovered from August 10th plunge, but if/when traffic returns, the extra percentage in earnings will be more than timely.
         
         It's not about the money though, it's about company identity, and about its attitude towards the participants.

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      4. 60

         jfay2011posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         This is not true.  Hubpages said it's not.  They have said that they are DMCM or whatever and that we have the rights to our stuff.  They're not planning on taking it all away.  Then what would they have?

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   3. 58

      Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Not had an answer either.
      
      This will cost me money and extra risk also - not the same reasons as you, but - I am not comfortable with the fact that - if I lost my adsense account - 3 months of Amazon and eBay income would default to hubpages.
      
      Hopefully there will be an answer soon.

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      1. 79

         QuestionMasterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I believe the eBay and HP ad program are tied to Adsense but the Amazon program will NOT be.
         
         Not much consolation though.

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         1. 58

            Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You believe?
            
            LOL

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            1. 79

               QuestionMasterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               After the last 6-10 months, no.
               
               But it's what Marina said: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86119#post1852900

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2. 65

   2uesdayposted 12 years ago

   Good question I am curious to read the answers to this.

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3. 66

   theherbivorehippiposted 12 years ago

   I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply. Although...I would love to know as well.

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4. 63

   kmackey32posted 12 years ago

   Ut Oh, I must of missed something. What Amazon switch?

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   1. 66

      theherbivorehippiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86119
      
      

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   2. 96

      Glenn Stokposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jason Menayan started a thread on it ... Amazon Program FAQ up

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5. 61

   Mezoposted 12 years ago

   OH MY GOD!
   I missed this too!!!!!
   Paypal is not available in my country and I don't see a good reason to make the switch mandatory too. This means either I'll have to delete all my Amazon focused hubs or transfer them. :S
   
   any ideas?

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6. 71

   HikeGuyposted 12 years ago

   Glad you asked. I've been wondering the same thing.
   
   I'm in California and just got my Amazon account back in October, right after I returned to HP. Hearing that I won't be allowed to use my own Amazon acct. here as of the beginning of the year doesn't sit right.
   
   I would rather have the option to continue using my own Amazon account.
   
   I hope we'll see a response to this concern.

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7. 88

   Will Apseposted 12 years ago

   I remember, vaguely, one of Paul Edmondson's comments (perhaps on a Ryankett hub)that Hubpages were negotiating a deal with Amazon to earn despite internet tax issues. Part of the deal was not to disclose any details.
   
   Maybe, that is related to the change (and the silences around it), maybe not.
   
   If this comment is expunged by the secret agents of Amazon or Hubpages, I will take that as confirmation.

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8. 78

   frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

   @ Will - so imagine (big stretch I guess but business throws up funky 'agreements' at times) that the answer is 'we can't disclose specifics, as it's related to the Amazon/HP arrangement, but throwing the Amazon net site-wide is a part of the whole', all I can think of is why does Amazon need to net the whole of something they've already got the whole of?
   
   The above is hypothetical btw, in the event someone reads it and presumes that's come from the team.  It's not
   
   Hike Guy -me too, because when this goes live, I'm going to lose money. As I said before, a mandatory event is not an opportunity.

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   1. 89

      SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If Amazon and Hubpages have formed an agreement where it doesn't matter where the hubber is then it benefits Amazon as they don't have to worry about affiliates being in 'bad' states. Furthermore, if they have an agreement like this, they will ensure that HP don't say anything (with a very tight contract) as they will not want States to get hold of the 'verbage' of such an agreement so that they can write tax laws that circumnavigate these agreements - it's a game of push and shove between states and Amazon and it looks like HP is in the middle.
      
      Of course it could be totally different!

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9. 83

   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Um, does this mean those of us from Amazon-banned states will be able to start using it again?

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   1. 78

      frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I would imagine so. That would be a good thing for you and those like you. At least you have the earning potential back
      
      For those like me it's an income loss. I've already had a big enough one on HP.

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10. 83

    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    It would be nice to have options given that we all have different circumstances...

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    1. 78

       frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yep, it would. Doubt it will happen though. Good for some, disaster for others

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11. 71

    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    I would really, really, really, like to know the answer to this too. 
    
    This is going to bring a lot of downsides to me with no real benefit, and the loss of sales data reports is going to hurt my ability to expand my sites/hubs, especially with the drop of available Google data.

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12. 71

    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    The agreement would not navigate the sales tax laws in california since they closed the loophole on performance based payments.

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13. 80

    skyfireposted 12 years ago

    Totally off-topic but if HP doesn't allow users without adsense account on ad program, how come squidoo and many other revenue sharing sites(private sites) offer it ? Anyway, hope to see jason or marina's post on this.

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    1. 71

       relacheposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       HubPages built their in-house system in such a way that it's tied to AdSense, with their system comparing bids for ads and then serving whichever supposedly will pay higher.
       
       None of the other sites you've mentioned have any sort of advertising system of their own, they just run outside programs as served.

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14. 70

    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    I highly doubt that a forced change to existing amazon publishers is in any way related to any tax loophole that hp/amazon may have found.
    
    But, one of the pauls mentioned they were allotted their own tracking ids to reassign to us so some subaff system maybe?
    
    Anyways, the answer is going to be that they are unwilling to spend time and money maintaining a legacy system to best help their existing successful members.
    
    They are certainly not incapable ... so any answer will be some doublespeak along the above lines.
    
    Would love to be told otherwise though!

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15. 71

    HikeGuyposted 12 years ago

    Greekgeek published a hub comparing HP and Squiddoo, including the Amazon issue. I just started with Squiddoo -- happy to find out I can use my own Amazon account there. Squiddoo gives you the choice of using their Amazon account or your own. I've been doing business with Amazon as a seller for a long time, so when it comes to a choice of publishing product articles under the soon-to-be-mandatory HP Amazon account or publishing them elsewhere under my own, I'm not going to waste a lot of time figuring that one out.
    
    It's a disappointing change at HP. I hope someone addresses these questions.

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16. 70

    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    Eh, squidoo still has their crappy lensrank system. The best hp alternative is running your own sites. Hp was the last of the major writing sites with a transparent and fairly autonomous earning system. That is over.

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    1. 71

       HikeGuyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'm starting a niche site, too. I have a lot to learn, so I'm experimenting with three rev share sites to see what works best for me.
       
       I'm curious -- you consider the lensrank system worse than the hubscore system? Why?

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       1. 70

          sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hubscore is just kindergarten gold stars, lensrank actually effects your earning level

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          1. 71

             HikeGuyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Okay. Thanks for the clarification. I'm not crazy about that pooled earnings distributed by rank system on Squiddoo -- still, it seems to have potential for certain kinds of content. For product articles, what matters is sales -- from what I understand, those earnings, such as my Amazon sales, are separate from the pooled payout.

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             1. 88

                Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                The last piece I tried to publish on Squidoo was refused as 'too commercial'.
                
                Given that it is still laboring under a penalty, the only pages I would trouble with there would be highly commercial pages.
                
                Some of my other highly commercial pages are still doing well there but since I can't add to them, I have given up on the site completely.
                
                As far as I am concerned, it is no place for newcomers.

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       2. 59

          Topnewhottoysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Just to add to Sunforged's correct statement about lensrank - the issue is further impacted by the fact that lensrank is highly susceptible to community manipulation.
          
          Experienced Squids know how to cooperate on a lot of the participation factors that affect lensrank. Silly stuff like getting "Squid-Angel blessings", and "Squid-likes" and "Giant-Squid likes" affect your lensrank, which, because Squiddo earnings are calculated on a tire-system, in turn affects YOUR earnings potential.
          
          Maybe I just don't know enough about it, or am not very good at it, but I just use Squidoo for back-links
          
          ps. my Squidoo earnings confirm that last statement LOL
          
          GA

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          1. 71

             HikeGuyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Topnewhottoys -- Thanks for your thoughts on this. I appreciate the heads-up. I admit, on my first visit to Squiddoo, all the silliness had me laughing so hard I left the site. I'd rather spend my time writing than playing popularity games. Still, I keep encountering people who seem to do well with it. I'll have to see how the experiment pans out.

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17. 69

    Anamika Sposted 12 years ago

    Google has taken a dislike on my Sales Hubs based account having 53 hubs after the recent update and all I get is some 40 page views despite of original content. I have done all efforts to bring the views up to earlier levels but has failed. So now I am considering moving the entire thing to Squidoo so I just started an account there. Ability to use own Amazon account there is definitely a motivation. I hope it works.

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    1. 79

       QuestionMasterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I had a similar problem with my sales hub account.
       
       Two things which have increased the traffic included:
       -Making sure each hub had a good summary.
       -Making sure there were about 150 words written on the profile.
       
       Those two things (not sure which worked best) took my sales hub account up from 0 views a day back to a reasonable number (although not what it was.)

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       1. 69

          Anamika Sposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What you have mentioned is already there plus I have unpublished the hubs and republished after some modifications also. All my views are from hubpages and linked sites and not from search engine which indicates that the account is penalized.

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          1. 79

             QuestionMasterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Good luck then. There are lots of penalized accounts right now.

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18. 0

    EmpressFelicityposted 12 years ago

    I would like to know the answer to this too.

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19. 61

    Mezoposted 12 years ago

    It was why i didn't use squidoo and came to hubpages: because i don't have to deal with paypal (not supported in my country) and I get paid directly by either google or amazon. I hope hubpages give users freedom of choice not to join the earning program.

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20. 78

    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    I hear you Hippy. I've been busy offsite since February but I'd sure like to stay on HP. I have an emotional attachment to the site, plus I've met some great people. That wouldn't have happened had HP not existed. I do thank the site admin for that aspect. I also made a good amount of money - up until February HP revenue paid my rent and all of my bills. I thank them for that too.
    
    I'm also fine with change, more so when it's done with honesty, even if I'm not the biggest benefactor. But - as that's not happening, well ... that's the way of things sometimes.

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21. 78

    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    After 30 hours, either the admin team have better things to do, no answer or they're not going to. It's fine, I didn't really expect one.

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    1. 73

       KeithTaxposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I didn't expect a reply either. I am sure the admin team did read it. I think they watch the forums close.

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22. 76

    Lissieposted 12 years ago

    Its sad - I got my start at Hubpages - and it used to make me a reasonable income.
    
    Now at least with this (non) confirmation that the Amazon "opportunity" will be compulsory, its the final push I need to remove most of my money making content.

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    1. 78

       frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yep, same here Lis. If all the marketers push off, it's not the best of results. Oh well.

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       1. 0

          EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I kind of get the impression that HP wants the marketers to push off. If this is true, I wonder why.

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23. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    The relationship with Amazon is very important to us and we've been working towards an agreement for a long time that is important to the future of our relationship with Amazon.
    
    The scale we bring as a community is critical to our negotiations with Amazon and other earning relationships.  By having all Amazon earnings pooled, we have more leverage that helps ensure many aspects that we all benefit from.
    
    We believe that this agreement is in the best interest of the community by increasing earnings for the vast majority and ensuring we can continue to support Amazon as an option for the foreseeable future.
    
    We always follow the feedback very closely.  There is more we can do in the future with Amazon because of this relationship that will benefit Hubbers.
    
    Thanks again for all the feedback.

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    1. 94

       wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That's kind of what I figured.  The massive number of sales originating on HP has to provide some leverage, and cutting that lever in half won't make it any more effective.  When my itty bitty subdomain produces $1000 in sales each month and there are tens of thousands of active subdomains Amazon has to pay attention to what HP says or asks for.
       
       "There is more we can do in the future" piques my curiosity, though, and sets me to wondering.  Maybe the next change will bring a 50% tier just for the fantastic writers of HP??

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    2. 58

       Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       How does pooling the the earnings help? I don't understand. The traffic and earnings I generate are exactly the same.
       
       Decreasing the earnings of the small minority in favor of the "vast majority" that were not making much money anyway? Where is the logic in that? Surely the vast majority that do not want to opt out will now hit top tier whether I am enrolled or not?
       
       According to Paul Deeds you now have access to hundreds of thousands of Amazon tracking IDs so why can I not still use my own?
       
       All that is going to change is that Hubpages will become a buffer between Amazon and myself. I would like the option to opt out of this opportunity.
       
       I am going to lose money here. Several hubbers have written and asked me what they should do because they have earnings in their Amazon accounts and will not reach the minimum payout threshold before January.
       
       I told them to personally tweet Matt Cutts and see if that helped.
       
       Surely they could be given the chance to hit payout in their own accounts before choosing to enroll in this?
       
       Seriously - this is costing me money and exposing me to unacceptable risks - i.e - I stand to lose all my earnings from  all sources should I lose my paypal account and all income from three sources if I lose my  adsense account.
       
       The people who think they are going to benefit by an extra few percent seem to have forgotten the increased risks involved. Right now - if Hubpages goes broke - I still get paid. Come January - if hubpages goes broke - I stand to lose a minimum of three months income from four different sources.
       
       And you did not address the issue properly. Please explain exactly why it is in the best interests of the community to force this "opportunity" on all of us because that is a non-answer.
       
       Thank you.

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       1. 88

          mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I am also concerned about my existing balance in Amazon Mark. I would like the option to wait until I hit payout before any change is enforced (and to be honest I believe the whole HEP versus Amazon direct earnings should be optional anyway). None of my Hubs were written with Amazon as a focus, so it has taken me my entire time on HP (over 3 years), to get relatively close to seeing payout on the horizon. For that 3 years worth of accumulated income to end up stagnating in an Amazon account and not getting any closer to reaching payout is frustrating at best, and I cannot see my hitting payout within the next three months no matter how hard I try as I hate writing product based hubs.

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    3. 71

       thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Unless this change is going to increase our earnings to a new 10% tier or maybe remove/increase caps I don't see how this is going to benefit us.
       
       While a lot of people will earn more, they will earn more on a much smaller amount.
       
       A 2.5% increase is only really a big deal if you make a lot of sales. If you are making a lot of sales, chances are you are probably only getting a point/half point increase in any case.
       
       A change such as this would pretty much end my continued submissions to Hubpages, as with Mark, I cannot afford to put all my eggs in the Paypal basket, nor can I afford to lose my current reporting (from which I base my continuing articles) a loss of referral rates from my other sites, or a 90 day delay in payments.
       
       It seems that Hupages is drastically changing from what it was designed to be a mere 3 years ago, and I can't see that doing it any favours in the long run. 
       
       You do have a fantastic platform in terms of usability, but by focusing your efforts on investor/business relations the actual writers seem to be getting left behind.
       
       While I have seen traffic return I cannot say the same thing for earnings. If you want Hubbers to provide a unified front of support for the platform we need to see changes that really do reflect the needs and requests of the community. 
       
       Being able to offer the entire Hubpages community as a bargaining chip is a strong point of leverage.  However whether we are in your advertising program or not, those users are still providing referral sales to Amazon. Using our numbers to negotiate with Amazon has nothing to do with whether we are in your particular program or not.
       
       If you want a more positive response to this change then offer it as an option, right now you are leading us with the stick, you should be offering us a carrot. Take the Hubpages earnings platform, it was a choice and it was a great move.  It allows us to take an option that works well for individals on the site.  Take the eBay addition, helps out all those people who couldn't get in to the program before, but for those who DID use it before, a lot of s have seen huge reductions in earnings, plus we are now forced to go through paypal.
       
       Give us the option and let us decide, don't just keep hitting us with blow aafter blow without giving us the benefits of your deal with Amazon.  If you don't want to, or cant tell us the specifics yet, then don't make the change mandatory until you can. Forcing people in to changes is a huge PR/marketing mistake.
       
       When it comes to Amazon the people who will benefit are the people who don't make many Amazon sales, they also are probably the people who wont get hit by the side affects.
       
       The people who will benefit the least are the people who can earn the most, and they will suffer from the side effects.
       
       As mentioned earlier, I cannot afford to lose my data, lose money in foreign exchange fees, have to deal with Paypals issues with people who earn more than a few hundred a month, or deal with extended payment terms.

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       1. 89

          SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          "You do have a fantastic platform in terms of usability, but by focusing your efforts on investor/business relations the actual writers seem to be getting left behind."
          
          The problem that many people neglect is that Hubpages is a business and they have to create a multi-year business plan that is sustainable and profitable.
          
          While this is conjecture, the current relatinship Amazon has with affiliates is changing on a day to day basis, depending on states - as more and more states begin to look at receding revenues, Amazon is going to be in the cross-hairs and you'll likely see a lot of affiliates in states close down.
          
          While this could take months or years, HP has to look far into the future and if by creating a system where everyone is a sub-affiliate under the HP overall contract then this makes perfect business sense.
          
          While I agree with everyone that I feel there should be a choice, at least for an interim period of a year, I totally understand the business reasoning behind it - I'd probably be more worried if there wasn't business reasoning behind the scenes.

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    4. 73

       KeithTaxposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       What about my original concerns? Where will our work stand if HP goes public? Or HP decides they own the copyright if we don't remove hubs within a week or ten days?

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24. 78

    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    Thankyou (Paul) for your reply. Appreciated.

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25. 60

    seamistposted 12 years ago

    @ Paul
    
    Not to be disagreeable, but I still don't see how if you made it optional instead of mandatory how it would affect your overall business. It would probably only be a few that would rather opt out and keep their current Amazon affiliate number. In my case, I don't have a Paypal account, and after reading all the comments on here, I am not sure I want to be paid through that program. However, even it more importantly, since everything (HPads, Ebay, Amazon)is tied to having an Adsense account, I don't like the idea that if lose our Adsense account, all our monetization efforts here are down the drain. I don't know if you remember or not, but last winter I wrote you when my Amazon, Adsense, and HP accounts had been hacked. Although I did eventually gain control of my accounts again, afterwards, the culprit started clickbombing account when they realized they were locked out of my accounts. If I hadn't reported the abnormal click activity to Adsense right away, I very easily could have lost my account. If that had happened, under the system you're trying to implement, I would have no way to monetize my articles. At least under the current system, if you do lose your Adsense account, you can still make money with Amazon, and it's alot harder to lose your Amazon account since invalid clicks won't affect since you don't get credit until you sell something. Who is going to protect all your success stories from being clickbombed by someone who is jealous of their success or protect a hubber from someone who wants to retaliate because of something said in their forums. You have to admit these activities commonly happen. Until you can guarantee your writers that these kind of activities won't happen to their accounts, I think this is bad move and too much of a risk for your writers. It would be a pity for someone with hundreds of hubs to lose all their ability to monetize their writings here.
    
    Since I never had an Ebay account anyway, it didn't bother me with that, but it does bother me with Amazon for the reasons mentioned. As I said before, if you made it optional, I don't think it would affect your business plan overall if at all. Please reconsider the move to make it mandatory.

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    1. 94

       wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       First, you don't need adsense to use Amazon, either now or after the year.  HPads is inextricably intertwined with adsense, and somehow eBay seems to be too, but Amazon is not and you won't need adsense to use Amazon.
       
       If I'm understanding Paul, part of their negotiating power over Amazon is the size of the hubber community; losing an unknown and variable percentage of that would very much decrease their negotiating position.

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       1. 88

          Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          'HubPages Earnings Program will be the sole means to earn from Amazon products on HubPages starting in early 2012'
          
          This is from Maria here: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86119#post1852900
          
          Since you cannot get an HP earnings account without adsense, you will no longer be able to earn through Amazon without adsense.

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          1. 94

             wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             You can get an HP earnings account without adsense; you cannot sign up for HPads without one.  They are two different things and the information is from the link you provided. 
             
             HP earnings = HEP, which requires paypal and tax forms only.  No adsense

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             1. 88

                Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I am about to take my morning walk around the park, followed by a leisurely Dim Sum. I will look at this later. If you are right and I am wrong, I will be delighted.

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       2. 78

          frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Maybe you can see some huge big plus for Amazon? I can't. And I'm not lacking in the intellect department either. What on Earth do Amazon have to gain from netting the whole of what they already have? If a hubber is signed up with Amazon, how will it benefit Amazon by bringing us under one aff ID?
          
          And let's not forget the promise on an increased aff percentage for those that never make the 8.5% threshold. Amazon paying out 8.5% (because they're not right now) sitewide is hardly what anyone would call a step in the right direction profit wise.
          
          Edit - to add - and Amazon are more likely going to lose out because this is very possibly going to cause a number of hubbers to leave. Unless those that choose to exit can regain the position their hubs were in when on HP. And that then puts HP in direct competition with any that leave ... which means Amazon win, HP loses. Oh what a tangled web.

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          1. 94

             wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             It is indeed a tangled web, and those perhaps most affected (hubbers) don't have the tools to straighten it.
             
             My take from the beginning has been that only hubbers will profit, and then only if they would not already make that 8.5%.  At one time I would have questioned what was going on with the California deal, but that seems a moot point, at least for the next year.
             
             HP might profit by attracting more hubbers, but that's about it.  There is little doubt that they already make that top tier, so nothing to gain unless this encourages either more hubbers or more amazon hubs.  Add in that if everyone jumps on the amazon bandwagon adsense is probably going downhill and HP could actually lose in the short run.
             
             Amazon is certain to lose, as I see it.  This is going to cost them a bundle unless, like HP, they can actually profit from increased sales which I doubt. There simply aren't enough hubbers that are going to lose from outside sites not making top tier to make up the difference.  Given that, HP is using the stick of big size to beat up on Amazon and get more out of them.
             
             The obvious conclusion is that HP is doing this because they're nice people and want to make a gift to their hubbers (except, of course, those relative few that depend on HP to get the rest of their sites into a higher tier).
             
             Now that's a fine thought, but HP isn't composed of altruists.  They are businessmen and women that have a corporation to run.   There has to be more to it, we just don't know what is actually going on behind closed doors.

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                Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I think it will be a while before Hubpages can beat up on Amazon. Common ground was probably easy to find, though.
                
                On the other point you were right:
                
                http://hubpages.com/faq/#hepenroll
                
                'HubPages Earnings Program (HEP), the umbrella program/the payment system: requires tax forms and a PayPal account
                Ad Program (formerly "HubPages Ad Program"): requires HEP and a Google AdSense account
                eBay Program: requires HEP and a Google AdSense account
                Amazon Program: requires HEP'
                
                I had missed the latest iteration of the five year plan.
                
                So that is good. All I have to worry about is Paypal. And the fine print I probably missed.
                
                I won't be investing time in eBay. Unless the agreement with Amazon runs into trouble, of course. Then eBay could be my friend.

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                EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yep.

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26. 88

    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    At the end of the day, writers can complain but we don't own the site.
    
    I think of the management here as part hard nosed business people and part feverishly busy, boy scout/girl guide types. They just can't help improving stuff- even when it works pretty well already.
    
    I imagine the Amazon decision is driven by the business side not the boy scoutism. In other words, it is necessary and it is confidential.
    
    It is people like Hassam, that I feel for. He has had over a million hits on his hubs but having lost his adsense account (probably innocently) will not earn here at all. So his significant contribution to the site will go unrewarded.

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27. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    @thisisoli We want authors to earn more.  I've had a policy of not promising to the community increased earnings via amazon until we are sure we can offer them.
    
    We are continuing to work with Amazon. Amazon product groups have been known to cut custom deals, but they vary by category. To get an opportunity to negotiate these it takes a set of work items on our side which we are making progress against.
    
    We want to take a long term view of adding more value to Hubbers and strengthening relationships with the core monetization partners. My hope is we will be the best place to promote amazon products for small and large sellers. That's what we are working towards.

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28. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    @SimeyC yes, part of this change is to take proactive steps to preserve earnings through HubPages of Amazon affiliate sells that is a business decision for the long term.
    
    We can only succeed together.
    
    I've spent the last few days discussing the rate of change with many of our partners.  2011 has been a wild year with Amazon, Panda, and the growth of RTB. 
    
    One thing I'm working on is figuring out how to communicate our plans for the next year, but also manage some of the unpredictable nature with everyone that makes the HubPages community.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Paul
       
       I would appreciate a response to my concerns when you have the time. In case you missed them:
       
       
       
       Thanks

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       Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Some stability would be wonderful. So I am glad that is the objective.
       
       It would be nice if Hubpages gave some thought to the PayPal issue though. It does make people nervous.
       
       PayPal are obliged to act as policemen (not just carriers) to avoid charges of aiding money laundering, terrorism, scams etc, etc and seem to jump to the wrong conclusions too often. Understandable if your whole business is at stake but not confidence building for users.
       
       So maybe an alternative payment method somewhere on the horizon would reassure everybody- even if it was just something like Skrill/moneybookers.
       
       Personally, I trust the mail, They are legally obliged to deliver whatever is placed in their hands (in most countries).

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29. 64

    lakeerieartistsposted 12 years ago

    What is RTB?

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       Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Glad you asked...was wondering.

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          Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Real Time Bidding
          Return to Blockland
          Radio Televisyen Brunei
          Ranger Training Brigade
          
          Most likely the first (i.e., like eBay?) - ?

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             Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             

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                WriteAngledposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                As far as I can make out, most people cannot be bothered to bid on eBay anymore, but go preferentially to buy-it-now offers.

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                   Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   That may be true for new items, but definitely not for antiques, collectibles, precious metals, and more.

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                      WriteAngledposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      People I know do not use eBay for that purpose, and they have mostly said they cannot be doing with all the c__p of auctions, but prefer to know in advance what price is being asked and make a decision whether to buy or not on that basis. I also am part of that group. I did try for one month to buy a secondhand mobile phone on eBay, kept getting outbid and finally bought a new one on Amazon for almost the same price, none of the stress and hassle and the knowledge I could return it with no problems if something was not right with it.

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                         Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         A second-hand mobile phone is not a collectible, antique, or precious metal. I hear what you are saying. The market you describe is not what I'm talking about.

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                   frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   I just buy. I can't remember the last time I bid. I just get annoyed. I bought a Kenwood Chef a bit back, buy-it-now. It was a 1980's model, the one I wanted, fully loaded and ready to go. I paid a good bit less than I saw going through the auctions side.
                   
                   Anyway ... back to topic

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30. 78

    Sally's Troveposted 12 years ago

    I am firmly in line with those who have existing Amazon accounts who have put work into HP articles to add to those accounts. That effort has always been a benefit to you. This new HP program will take earnings from those HP works away from the Amazon accounts already owned by HP members, thus limiting their Amazon partnership possibilities.
    
    If you want to make this a condition for new HP members (as others have suggested), then that's one thing. But to impose this way of doing business regarding Amazon earnings on those who have already entered an agreement with you is wrong or worse.
    
    How you choose to monetize your site is up to you, but when it comes to reneging on prior agreements about money with those who make your business possible, then what are the consequences to you?

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31. 70

    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    rtb - yup, real time bidding ... but rather than "like ebay" it would be like Hpads ability to place the highest paying advertiser in prime blocks in competition/conjunction to adsense ads?
    
    I never saw the benefits of HPads .. but I think RTB is whats supposed to make it cool

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       Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       TY.

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       Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Very helpful - thanks!

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32. 70

    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    the increase in BIN items at ebay is a direct result of ebays pricing policies to sellers. I dont think its a reflection of what buyers/users at ebay really jump for

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33. 73

    KeithTaxposted 12 years ago

    This is the first step toward losing ownership of our hubs. Since the concern is not denied or even addressed, the meaning is clear.

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34. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    HubPages model is one where authors own their content.  We are a service provider that operates under the dmca.  We won't take your content.

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35. 60

    smilingjimdicksonposted 12 years ago

    This doesn't look too good, does it. I've just arrived and it's time to go home.

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       Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Then please go home. Or put your energy into finding out whether HP is good, or not, for you.
       
       You've been here for 5 days...or maybe you are a sock puppet or troll...who knows? But no one who has been here for 5 days can possibly know the potential or non-potential of this site.
       
       Oh, unless you are part of the inner sanctum of Google, and then you would know.

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          Topnewhottoysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Of course they could!
          
          HP's business model and TOS are public info available to all, and that's all you really need to decide if HP is for you or not.
          
          The issues and changes discussed in the forums are just that - issues with changes.
          
          A newbie to HP can readily see what the HP platform is about and decide if it fits their reasons for showing up in the first place.
          
          I don't mean to create another issue, or appear to be attacking you -- it's just that your response seemed so damn proprietary and uppity it cried out for a response. (I heard it all the way over in the Politics section, that's why I ran to see what was wrong)
          
          GA

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             Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             No one has called me proprietary or uppity in a very long, long time. Believe me, I smiled at your comment.
             
             But you've been here (ostensibly) for three weeks, and I've been here for three years. HP's business model is a public matter, but unless you are living within HP, having gone with the flow, you really can't grasp some things about how this community has put itself into making HP what it is.
             
             Anyway, your view is refreshing.
             
             That my view made it your way from the politics section tickles me pink.

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                wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Proprietary, yet!  Does that mean you are the secret owner of HP, hiding behind your avatar? 
                
                I would ask you to please double the traffic numbers to my account, but if you're all uppity and stuff, I doubt you would.  I'm too low on the totem pole - just another hubber barely a year old and all...

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                   Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   
                   
                   Wait a minute...let me wave my magic wand in your direction. But when HP does its IPO, then the secret of who runs the place will be revealed.

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                      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      

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                Topnewhottoysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                @Sally Trove - I wish I could remember which politician said it... Reagan maybe..?
                
                Anyway...."there you go again..." -- how good was the last book you judged by its cover?
                
                I have been here about as long as you have - give or take a day or two, and combining accounts have over three times as many hubs as your Sally Trove ID, of course you may have other ID's, as I do, so the only reason for mentioning the number of hubs was to reinforce my "experience" factor.
                
                I generally write sales and review hubs, but I also have a personal ID for general non-fiction, story-telling, and political satire writings. I have two more niche' ID's, for specific content, that are combination review/tips/guide, and a few topic-specific ebooks, (not "how-to-make-money, or Affiliate how-to's, heaven forbid)
                
                The only point of the above paragraph is to illustrate that I too have had to cope/adapt/improvise with all the Panda-prompted changes here at HP. And I haven't done so quietly, I have been very vocal about the ebay/Amazon changes because I feared they would affect my income - and I was right, they did, negatively.
                
                But, even if I were three-weeks-new here, my point still stands - and I believe is still the more valid position.
                
                Also one of the features of HP that I have enjoyed from the beginning, (and maybe a little more than I should during these recent times of change), is the enjoyably lively, and usually civil, exchanges in the forums.
                
                Thanks
                GA

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    Sally's Troveposted 12 years ago

    Let's get this back on track...it's a good thread.
    
    @ Topnewhottoys, whoever you are in another manifestation, I could care less. I'm just here and just me, and not confusing others with a persona-of-the-month.

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       Topnewhottoysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Calm down, that works for me.
       
       and back to the thread.... which was Frogdropping(s?) caviching about the mandatory thingie which I agree with.
       
       As many others have already stated - it must be a HP-advantage business decision because the capabilities for opt-in/out are easily available, and the explanations offered so far, though weak - may hold some water relative to ebay because ebay is allowing previously unqualifiable(yes I know it's SP?) affs in under an HP ID, but holds no water at all for the Amazon affs. The strength-in-numbers answer isn't logical.
       
       Especially the pay-out thresh-hold for each account. ebay handles that with campaigns, Adsense with channels, Amazon with tracking ID's which only leaves the deduction that the reason for HP's policy is it's advantageous to HP.
       
       ...and breaking to the point where we got off on a tangent - the newbie posters response.... HP has every right to set the rules - it's their game. and I don't blame them for doing things their way...
       
       ...but changing the rules for players already in the game... of course we can "take it or leave it", but HP has earned the grief they are hearing
       
       I will still play -- the platform is still useful to me, but as the rules have changed, so have my goals and methods. I may be an ant threatening a T-Rex, but that T-Rex has lost a lot of HP site-specific traffic promotion from me.
       
       Maybe if there are enough like-minded "me's" changing the direction of their efforts, us ants might just turn into Lilliputians that at least get noticed. Or not... maybe just having a mass of content is enough in itself.
       
       GA

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