When does one's own defense become offensive?
I understand the bad blood between Israel and Palestine, but what I can't understand is violently attacking a flotilla aimed at offering humanitarian aid!
These people were on a mission of peace, and at best, they should have been met at the door and dismissed. There was no reason for anyone to die, and this is no different than someone firing on a red cross convoy!
How can we continue to side with a country that claims it is being abused by the world, when it continues to commit atrocities of its own? I'm growing tired of this 'meet force with force mentality'. If Israel wants to survive as a sovereign nation then it needs to figure out a way to get along with its neighbors, rather than to force them into acceptance.
Friendship is never offered at the barrel of a rifle.
Perhaps another method is needed. Why not have Israel provide everything needed for the Palestinians and overindulge them with kindness, rather than cruelty. If the Israelis win over the Palestinian people, they would force those in-charge to silence their guns. Perhaps it's a foolish idea, but I think it's one that could work!It is so simple, it should be that easy shouldn't it?
Too many people on both sides have been polarized by grief, suffering and loss to just make nice now. It doesn't matter which side offers an olive branch, someone will not care and will get vengance for wrongs that have been done, and make new victims for whom new vengance will be required.
If I had a whole region that wanted nothing but my anhialation since the beginning and a neighbor that wanted to nuke me with plenty of regional support , I would be a bit paranoid myself. Nice Ideals here , but sadly not the real world nor will it ever be.
So you start another thread about Israel?... Just to bad mouth them somemore?
Talk about obsessed with hatred and a need to abuse a people.
This is a sad day in the world.He is talking about ways of making peace, not knocking Israel...
Could someone simply walk into the White House because they had a heartfelt and sincere desire to help Michelle plant her tomatos? And? What would happen if someone tried?
That is totally irrelevant to what he said.
I think it is relevant. The flotilla did not stop at the door they were more then prepared to kick the door in.
How would Israel know if it was humanitarian cargo on board without having the chance to inspect the contents?
What kind of peace activists on a humanitarian mission carry the weapons these community organizers had?
Does the Red Cross carry weapons?He is talking of overall peace, not just what happened a couple of days ago. Ways to avoid it from happening in the future.
Ok I think a start could be if groups like Hamas would acknowledge the existence of Israel. Not their right to exist but just the fact that in the world there is a nation called Israel.
What Weapons?
I understand Israel is in a desperate situation. They should have been able to search the ships that were willing to pull into port.
The only question that bothers me is why would people carrying weapons attack Israeli Soldiers with STICKS?
It's not my intention to second guess people with the absolute right to protect themselves; it's just that Israel knew these ships were coming for weeks and the knew they wanted to end the blockaid.
This was a very bad call on Israels part. I hope they survive it. The people of Israel need to take a hard look at the people they have in charge of the defense of their Country. They caused serious harm to their Country.
What are you out of your mind... that whole thing is an attack in the guise of a peace plea.
"but what I can't understand is violently attacking a flotilla aimed at offering humanitarian aid!"
What!... That is the disputed fact... What was going in and who....I am not convinced it was anythoing near a peaceful mission.
and
"There was no reason for anyone to die, and this is no different than someone firing on a red cross convoy!"
bullshit!! That is not an attack on Israel.
You all are just Israel hating, blood thirsty, terrorist supporting, haters.
This thread is nothing more than you all turned the last four into... a bash and hate Israel fest.
Man... and you all try to hide it... we see you.
yes they would nor be gunned down in cold blood. The voyage was well publicesed before hand through international media I had heard about the voyage 2 weeks before hand
Again...you totally miss the point...
How many times do I have to say that I do support Israel's right to exist, I do not support how the current government is going about dealing with the Palestinians. And not just the terrorists, but the innocent Palestinian people who are in the majority.The point is you just want to bash Israel and cry about the Palis.
"How can we continue to side with a country that claims it is being abused by the world, when it continues to commit atrocities of its own? I'm growing tired of this 'meet force with force mentality'. If Israel wants to survive as a sovereign nation then it needs to figure out a way to get along with its neighbors, rather than to force them into acceptance"
How can we?...
Because Israel has tried to have peace and allow for the Palistinians, and they have contiually been bitin for it by the Muslims.
If Israel wants to survive as a soviergn nation, it needs to defend itself... not allow any band of Jihadis that wants to enter and kill Jews, in.
Tell Hamas and Hezbollah and all the others to accept that Israel is, and will be there.
It is thier charters and religion which call for the annihilation of Israel and the Jews.
You have some nerve... all of you.
Get real UW... a plea for peace my ass... a bunch of Jew haters.Is LiveLonger in that group too? Is Jon Stewart in that group too?
You are very good at ignoring what you don't want to accept.
Of course, I agree with that. But...both sides have to be willing to compromise...
I know Hamas is not in charge of the West Bank. I also do not see the same problems there. I am not very informed on middle east politics but I wonder what is different between these places? The first thing that comes to mind is Hamas. I know they are the elected Govt in Gaza. When will the next election in Gaza be held? What if the people of Gaza would like to change their leaders?
I am not so sure they want to Arthur... but even if they did I wouldn't imagine Hamas would like it., and they may decide to pull a Saddam, or Castro.
Hamas is a creation of Mossad...that's why they never help the Palestinians, but work against them and foment violence..
Alas...not the perfect world we hope for. People have to choose a side. The US position was chosen long ago.
I know it is not easy, but I truly believe Israel was on the right path to peace before the current government...
Unfortuately, with some countries/groups, you give them an inch they will take a mile.
I do not agree with all the tactics of Isreal, however, many countries and groups indicated they want Isreal wiped off the face of this earth. With attitudes like that, I could understand why Isreal does what they do.According to my local newspaper report this morning, Israeli forces indicated they would board the boat after following it for some time. They did so, via helicopter, with only a few handguns in the way of arms; instead they carried primarily paintball guns. They were attacked with bludgeons and knives as soon as they hit the deck, and only fired handguns after considerable time spent asking for and finally receiving permission to fire. The newspaper states that the flotilla was there not so much to carry aid as to break the blockade; if so they were ready for violence.
The whole thing is very questionable in my mind. Why in the world carry paintball guns? Why attack an armed force of soldiers with nothing but impromptu weapons? It DOES sound reasonable that the soldiers tried to contain the boat without bloodshed - that is certainly in Israel's best interest, and I doubt that shots were fired before the soldiers were attacked.
There is simply not enough information at this time to make judgement calls about the attack. We don't even know who attacked who! Until multiple sources of information are available, the one boat offering resistance is emptied and the people on it identified we do not really know much of anything except that all agree a flotilla of boats tried to pass an Israeli embargo. Why the attempt was made, who made the attempt, what the boats were carrying, who attacked who; these are all questions that are germane and none are answered yet. Unless the world decides to force Israel to cancel their embargo and allow weapons to be shipped to their enemies at will the world needs to sit back and wait for information.We know who they were... IHH and Free Gaza... you should look them up. Very interesting. I posted tons of stuff about them in the other Israel posts.
They are known terrorist supporters who have attempted to aide many terrorist organizations and has strong ties to terrorism, as stated by both FRANCE and TURKEY.
Thats a riot... TURKEY said they were terrorist supporters.
There is quite a bit known about who it was on that ship.
The Arabic news has been reporting that the men were preparing for martydom as they neared the blockade, praying and writing wills.
How does that show peaceful intent?
lolol I am telling you wilder... go check it out.Oh, I understand the general group of people, I did wonder, though if there were any specific names that might be of interest. Not bin Laden, certainly, but names of more concern to Gaza and/or Israel.
The report of the Arabic news is interesting, but could be spun either way. Were they preparing for martydom because they were going into battle or because they expected the Israeli forces to unilaterally kill everyone aboard? Even given the "facts" it will take much work to "unspin" reports to find truth. If we ever do.
If we are to go upon past wrongs only the war would never end. We are talking about a skirmish that has went on for centuries and sees no end in sight. The embargo just makes the Palestinians angrier and does nothing to resolve the situation.
We understand that Hammas is out there with guns trained on Israel - and they have been fore some time. Expecting to subjugate the common Palestinian into making Hammas just won't work. Instead, the Israelis need to become one with the common Palestinian and show them war is no longer needed to be heard.
Let's remember ... the Palestinians are fighting for recognition just as much as the Israelis are.
There just comes a time when the people must admit that the people ruling both governments have gone mad with war and they must unite to bring peace. The blockade just forms a public opinion that Israel cares nothing for its neighbor that lives in squalor and continues the conflict.
Even if the Palestinians threw the first brick - which perhaps they did - it will never end until someone decides to bring forgiveness to the table. Making an enemy of every citizen in another country does nothing to resolve the war.
I feel for Israel too, with all they have gone through. Having their country subjugated to constant terrorism has made them angry and paranoid, but Hammas is using this embargo as a calling for its people to rise against Israel and the backlash will be horrifying.
As angry as I am over what happened, I am more angry over what it will bring to the middle east in days to come. This is a spark lighting a huge powder keg, and the actions of Israel over the next few days will determine if that spark will cause the whole region to explode.
As I said ... Israel needs to try something different, as this current course of action can only need them to more war, which is what they are trying to avoid.The only solution, if there is one, is to relocate the Palestinians away from the Jewish territories. There's no reason why Palestine couldn't be a separate nation with its own set of laws. But it takes more than land to make a sustainable nation. It needs a reliable currency, trade that generates money, and a culture that relies more on hard work than emotional outcry for pity. Mexico could take a lesson on that.
The Israelis were relocated after WWII. Now where could Palestine be located? Maybe one of the "Stans" in Eastern Europe or perhaps northern Africa.There is no more land left! Israel has taken it all!!
Just look at a current map.....there is no Palestine left...it's all imprisoned inside the Iron Wall, and under military control and terror.
It has very little to do with the land. If Israel ceded everything except one square mile of beach this would still be going on. This is about Israel existing. People insist on ignoring or glossing over that Israel has been attacked systematically by countries who OPENLY deny the holocaust and call for the destruction of the "Zionist" state.
I am not saying that force is always the answer, but who are we to question their actions to defend their right to exist, their citizens and their country. Israel is one of our staunchest allies and they are COMPLETELY SURROUNDED by countries that want them exterminated. Think about that before you shed any tears for those who were willingly putting themselves in the middle of an armed conflict. I have ZERO sympathy for people who throw themselves in the middle of a dangerous situation and then are surprised when people get hope. The "Flotilla" people are 100% to blame for this.If they wanted Israel annihilated, why haven't they done it? After all, if they are surrounded by so many of them, why is Israel still here?
And that flotilla had 100% right to go help whoever they feel like helping!
Israel invaded their ship in International waters...why didn't they wait until they were in Israel territory?
And why go in for the kill? And why film it??? And where's the rest of the film??
And you know, you can always listen to the people who were ON it for what actually happened!!!
Israel=ThugAre you serious? This from someone that thinks we should allow every drug dealing, criminal illegal, immigrant to do whatever they want here in the US?
This is practically not even worth responding to.
1. How about you crack open a history book and read a little. The reason they are still here is that they have KICKED THE BUTTS of every coalition army that has tried. Israel has hands down the best man-for man military on earth...and some of them are women! Wonder how it makes those countries feel to be beaten by Jewish women? I LOVE IT!
2. Israel is blockading Gaza due to HAMAS, a terrorist group gaining control of their Government. Do you think we would allow supporters of a terrorist group to just waltz into our country and hand out supplies? Really?
3. They Israelis came down with freaking paint-ball guns, they pulled side-arms after several were stabbed and one was thrown over the side of a ship. If they wanted them dead they would have shot them all or just sunk the ships. They could have blown them out of the water and claimed an accident...
4. Yeah, we should listen to the activist nut-cases, trust-a-farians and the people shouting "Jihad" and "Go Back to Auschwitz" over the radios of the ships.... Really??...disgusting
"If they wanted Israel annihilated, why haven't they done it?"
Answ: There have been attempts but Israel is, of necessity, a very power nation.
"And that flotilla had 100% right to go help whoever they feel like helping!"
Answ: When a military blockade is set up -- anywhere by any nation -- one doesn't walk in, teary-eyed with a basket of goodies, and expect the shooting to stop.
"And why film it??? And where's the rest of the film??"
Answ: The film could have shown a peaceful search instead of the violent mayhem. The activists decided to attack and so it went. If there is more film what do you expect it to reveal?
" . . . you can always listen to the people who were ON it for what actually happened!!!"
Answ: The activists are getting ample media time.
And there are other questions. The previous five ships were searched without incident. Why the Marmara incident? And why were the activists carrying envelopes stuffed with thousands of dollars in cash? Why didn't the Mavi Marmara dock and unload as was suggested?
Israel was baited. It was set up, that's why. And it's being baited once again with another incident expected today. BTW, notice the absence of the word "peace," as in "peace activist." These are activists who are trying to incite war. It's kind of like people who use "immigration" when discussing blatant illegal immigration.My God Chrs... "Why haven't they annilhalated Israel yet?"
Where have you been since 1947?...
They, Islam, have tried over and over again to annihalate Israel.
Not only it's nieghbors, but every frothing Muslim trying to attain his 40 virgins and his lil boys to play with in heaven.
Every Muslim intersested in recieving the blessing of Momo, and desiring to lie under the shade of the sword of allah, has taken a shot at Israel.
Too bad Israel has kicked thier ass each time...
You, chrs, really do not know what your talking about.Isael has definitely had its hard knocks and has every right to defend its sovereign nation. And yes, they have withstood dozens of attacks. And yes, this was almost certainly a baited attack.
However, Israel could have filmed the resistance and refused to respond. If they expected a resistance they could have taken weapons along that were non-lethal - such as stun guns.
I'm not mad at Israel - I'm mad at the fact it has once again placed itself in a very bad spot PR-wise and is carrying us in the muck with them.
It seems Israel has had enough and is willing to be more agressive and forward than before, but all this does is forment public opinion against them.
No one had to die aboard that flotilla. Had the Israelis stunend them and taken then hostage then distributed the goods they could have had public favor in their own direction. Unfortunately, I think the Israelis just snapped on this one, and this is the reason for the public outcry.
Massad is perfectly capable of taking prisoners in a non-lethal manner. the Israelis have enough Palestinian prisoners to prove this claim. So, why didn't they go this route?
this isn't about supporting the Palestinians, it's about asking the Israelis why they would do something they knew would drag us all through a big unnecessary mess.
This "defensive posture" did nothing more than convince several thousand more people that terrorism was justified, siding more suicide bombers against Israel.
It also places world leaders against our country, for defending a friend we know overreacted. And before we go back to all Israel has tolerated - I'm aware of it, and my heart goes out to them. However, not every situation need end in bloodshed.
While there may never be peace in Israel during our lifetime, I'd like to think it might someday have a chance. As of today, every Israeli has fought all their lives against terrorism ... they deserve a day of peace.Yoshi, valid points all. I think that you do not understand that Israel at this point really doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks. Terrorists have been attacking schools, buses and markets for YEARs yet when Israel responds with force all you hear about is how downtrodden the Palestinians are.
Israel has learned something we would do well to learn as well. Animals respect power and the willingness to kill. That is what terrorists are, they are animals who want every Jew dead, women, children, everyone. They gave them the option to turn around, to allow them to be searched peacefully and they choose to fight. This is what happens when you fight a country that has had struggle for their existence since day one.I agree with most of what you say. Israelis are fed up and they should be. The problem is most of the world is seeing innocent Palestinian women and children, isolated, starving, sick and dying. Saying you are protecting yourself by creating a giant concentration camp does not bring people to your side. If the Palestinians are getting supplies; it's not enough!
The Palestianias allowed a terrorist group, Hammas to take over, and they have been firing rockets into Israel from day 1. I am sorry, but there is no way I would allow more supplies in either if those supplies were being used to blow me up. They have food, they have water, just not much else. The need to take some responcibility for the actions of their leaders. Civilians suffer when governments wage war, that is war.
HUBBERS
Israel is an ally of ours for generations. The US supports Israel with foreign aid and national treaties.
Hamas is a terrorist organization sworn to eradicate Israel from the face of the earth. The US sends foreign aid to the Palestinians. WHY DO THE US SUPPORT TERRORIST GROUPS?
US Presidents for many years have tried to find a solution to the problems. Israel has given much for little in return.
Hamas continues to send rockets into Israel without rebuttal from world governments and the United Nations.
Prior to the recent occurrence, Israel has intercepted ships containing arms and ammunition ( supposedly furnished by Iran ).Many of the media except Fox News has pointed out the relationship of the occupants and terrorist groups on those
ships that were boarded.
The Israelis boarded the ships in peace not with guns draw as some news media reported. The mainstream media's reports were indeed biased toward Israel.
Fox News showed clips of the boarding party that was attacked, attacked with pipe and chains. The occupants on board were not peaceful. Israel has all the right to defend their country, if the suppliers were truly aid for the people, there should have been no encounter with the passengers.
The only way that peace will be achieved in the middle east is when all terrorist groups are removed, leaving peace loving people to live side by side with their neighbors.
Hope is on the way.Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
by Hassane Zerouky
Anybody bother to read this?
"According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
He's another kook, right?
Mossad: "By deception shall you wage war."
Why does AIPAC control our gvt.?
What has Israel done for us?
And most important: WHO is being exterminated, Israeli's or Palestinians?
"This from someone that thinks we should allow every drug dealing, criminal illegal, immigrant to do whatever they want here in the US?"
This is as bigoted as it gets.
And please point to your reason for saying this.As Ben-Gurion met George Antonius in the mid-1930s (one of the few Palestinians that Ben-Gurion had contacts with, who was an advisor to al-Mufti al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini), he suggested that Arabs should help the Zionist Jews to expand the borders of their future sovereign "Jewish state" to include areas (inclusive of the Western Jordan) under French Mandate, such as southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Sarcastically, Mr. Antonius answered:
"So, you propose that what England did not give you [according to the Balfour Declaration), you will get from us." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 162)
According to Ben-Gurion, Antonius had complained about Zionists who "want to bring to Palestine the largest number of Jews possible, without taking [Palestinian] Arabs into consideration at all. With this type," said Antonius, "it is impossible to come to an understanding. They want a 100% Jewish state, and the Arabs will remain in their shadow." By the end of their talk, Antonius could, with reason, conclude that Ben-Gurion belonged precisely to this category of Zionists. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 163)
Can you tell me WHY they were entitled to Palestine?
Were the Palestinians responsible for the Holocaust?
"I live in Australia and sadly,very little about the decades long oppression of Palestinians in their own land makes it to the mainstream media.In my own small way ,on various media blogs I try to encourage people to read some of the reams of historical documents and books which give such a vivid account of the relentless Zionist push to "cleanse" Palestine of it's native inhabitants."Maybe create a Palestinian homeland in one of the US states? They can just move those people out and move right in. Maybe one of the states with lots of space.
They can have Mexico when all of the Mexicans move here.
Wow--this smacks of Anglo Supremacy....big time. Do you realize that?
Let's see...Poor America and Israel--rotten Mexicans and Palestinians....that about right?
Who let Fox News and talk radio in here?
ps: I'd say Israel can come here...they are the interlopers in that situation.
And thesituation and the rest of you supporters can give up your homes for them.
You expect the Palestinians to, after all.True, would people have felt the same if, say Utah, was seen to be the ancient home of the Israeli's?
And what if the American Indians wanted their lands back? Would we be happy to return them and move on?
It's an interesting view on the Middle East plight ... and a very valid one ...
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