In 2010 Norman Finkelstein said "Israel is now a lunatic state"
His words have never been more prophetic. Israel is conducting one atrocity after another in Gaza right now. This is a prolonged and sadistic massacre of a civilian population.
I'll make a deal with you. Let me first kidnap your children and kill them. Then when you start lobbing rockets indiscriminately at me and mine I'll pound the living hell out of you. I think you may the lunatic on your side of the argument here.
Typical Israeli supporter. Taking it out of the historical context.
There has been an 8 year illegal siege of Gaza. A violent blockade by air, sea and land creating a huge open-air prison camp. The United Nations are being brazenly flouted, international law ignored. Israel has been commiting war crimes and possible crimes against humanity in Gaza.
Israel's treatment of the Gazan population goes against all our principles of democracy, human rights and civility. Israel is the aggressor, Israel is at the root of the problem
Now there are daily atrocities committed by the IDF. It is nothing short of a prolonged and sadistic massacre.
You support criminality, oppression, mass murder.
And you support jihadism, terror, endless violence. You don't support the uplifting of the Palestinian people. In your skewed way, you only think you do.
Israel and the US support djihadism. Everybody knows who is behind the spreading of djihadism. Saudi Arabia are our good friend. Tell me in which country wahabism is king?
They are attacking Gaza because of its gas exploitation. Israel, the dictator and the thief that they are following the example of the US, arrogantly violate international laws with our blessing. Where is the people to protest, is Zionism that powerful that we are not even masters in our own country.
Since the US fights terrorism in the world how come it is spreading everywhere our interests lie?
I don't support Jihadism, terror or endless violence and you have no evidence, no foundation and absolutely no right to accuse me of that.
I support international law, I support the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
I support the International Court of Justice who decided in 2005 that the Apartheid Wall of Israel is illegal and should be dismantled.
I support the Geneva Convention that Israel breaches daily with their settler policy and their brutal treatment of an occupied people.
I support the UN Resolutions that declare that Israel should withdraw from the Occupied Palestinian Territories, I support the Palestinian Right of Return to their own land as outlined by UN Resolution 194.
I support the UN decision that the siege of Gaza is illegal and I also believe that this barbaric siege constitutes an act of war.
I believe that the collective punishment of the civilian Gazan population is a war crime.
I support an investigation of Israeli war crimes for burning innocent civilians with illegal white phosphorous, I support the investigation of Israeli war crimes for using cluster bombs and fragmentation devices against a civilian population.
Ultimately I support the protection of children and babies from Israeli slaughter.
The critics of Israel all rely on an interpretation of one clause in an international document – namely, Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. Article 49(6) forbids transfers of populations to occupied territories, stating, “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It is concerned with people and with their rights, not with territory or legal questions relating to that territory. But no one is being transferred involuntarily. Israelis are not being deported to the West Bank, nor are Palestinians being deported from the West Bank.
Nor can the movement of Israelis be regarded as violating the human rights of the occupied individuals. The situation is totally unlike that of the deportation of Jews to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps. The 1949 Geneva Convention was aimed at preventing in the future what had happened in World War II: the forced transfer of large numbers of Jews by Nazi Germany and associates to the extermination camps. It was never intended to apply to Israeli settlements.
There is no international law to ban Jews, whether Israelis or otherwise, from settling in the area of the original Palestine Mandate established by the League of Nations. The Mandate clearly says, in Article 6, that the administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage ... close settlement by Jews on the lands, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.” Eugene Rostow argued thirty years ago that “until the final status of a particular area is resolved, there is no legal basis for barring Jews from settling there.”
Gaza is under an illegal occupation by the Israeli forces who are unlawfully kidnapping 8 year old children ,Israeli youth and others are enjoying night parties high up overlooking Gaza and rejoicing as Gaza and it't citizens are burnt alive ,how brave you are to support such trash.......
Or better Frog Prince let's say that the Palestinians have also weapons of mass destruction to give Israhell the green light to murder. So far I didn't see their bodies, did you?
I have to agree 100 percent. Israel has a right to exist and to defend it's self. I can only think what other countries would do if the same thing was being done to them. I've been to Israel and seen what is going on there. I say Israel should disarm Hamas and any other political organization against Israel.
The Israel/Palestinian issue presents a lot of issues that have evolved over many years. It is funny how the world has a perspective of what it is now as compared to how it has developed. The US got involved out of it guilt over not getting involved earlier in WWII when the Nazi's were exterminating the Jews. Is it a justified guilt? Had the US started accepting refugees instead of rejecting them such as in the 1939 turning away of the MS St. Louis by firing a shot over its' bow in Florida and had the US the ability that they took almost three years to develop perhaps we would have been involved earlier. In 1947 the United Nations recommended a separate Arab and Israeli state with a special exception for Jerusalem. The Israelis readily accepted the agreement while the Arabs rejected it citing it went against even UN charter for national self determination.
That is where this began. In the process of countless confrontations and short wars, Israel has absorbed (stolen) more land and refuses to allow reparations to the displaced people. With large donations of military equipment and money the US continues to back Israel. Generations and generations of Arab kids have grown up under this system of oppression and suspicion breeding a contempt only they can know. Out of frustration and being a seriously poorly equipped underdog terrorism has been the only fight they can muster. Is it moral or just is not the question. Is it the only self expression available to them should be the question. Hamas was bred out of this mess to confront the situation and offer some sort of avenue to gain back what they have lost.
BUT! if we want to react to this days headlines that Hamas continuously hurls missiles at Israel, forgetting the history just presented, I guess you could make a point. However if you know the truth it is a weak one.
Thanks for a well spoken and considered answer rhamson.
I don't support rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian targets but with appalling suffering inflicted on the Palestinians who can honestly blame them for fighting back. When whole families are masssacred, who wouldn't seek revenge on the oppressor?
But what excuse has Israel for choosing terror as the only fight they can muster? They have none. White phosporous spread indiscriminately from the air over innocent civilians, cluster bombs and fragmentation devices in heavily populated areas full of children.
The Israeli government is descending further and further into barbarism
On the contrary, Israel is the only nation in the region whose people wake up every day with a view to actually LIVE, not see what bombs can be made to explode and kill. I used to be wholly on the Palestinian/Muslim/Arab side of the issue, but I've since come to see that, overall, their radical religion means more than the their people's health, nutrition, education, and safety, They live in and foster a CULTURE of death, so I wonder why they should ever be surprised or mourn death when it comes back to them.
But if it were that simple! These two nations have been itching for some clarity for years. Hamas that was born out of frustration is wanting to get that clarity. As with any religious group there will be those that invoke some sort of divine justification and act out as they please. What else would you have them do? Negotiate with the Israelis when the conditions to talk with each other hinge on the others ideology?
Hamas were actively supported by the Israeli regime as a counter-weight to the PLO. Hamas were then democratically elected in 2006 in a fair and free election as evidenced by ex-US President Jimmy Carter.
Their 'destruction of Israel' manifesto was up for negotiation and they were willing to talk but Israel imposed an illegal siege and blockade. What followed was 8 years of collective punishment of a civilian population. That's totally against the Geneva Convention. It's a war crime.
Israel are the aggressors.
Israel is a heavily militarised colonial-settler state.
It has attacked every country around its borders in recent history. As Noam Chomsky said "Israel prefers expansion to peace".
The people of Israel wake up everyday without a clue what crimes and atrocities their government is commiting in the West Bank and Gaza. Netanyahu is exporting death and the videos of distraught fathers and mothers weeping over the corpses of their children tells me they don't have a death instinct. People have children to bring life to the world.
You have made a sweeping statement assuming that all Palestinians are radicalised.
I would remind you that the West Bank palestinians fight back with peaceful protest even though they have the absolute right to resist their illegal invaders with force.
And speaking of Israel being a "colonial" power, what has the take-over of the Middle East and more and more African countries by Islamists wrought? Universities, hospitals, better infrastructure, booming economies, PROGRESS, LIFE? Just the seemingly synonymous twins called Allah and violence. Palestinians need to fire their "leaders."
Without saying all the neighboring countries that it attacked deliberately, Somalia, Lebanon, Syria without anybody to open their hypocritical mouths.
When you speak of Israel "stealing" land, don't be selective. This has happened the world over, including right here in the good-ole-USA. There were human beings here when Europeans descended upon the Americas, and with DEVASTATING results for the indigenous peoples. It has ALWAYS been the case that previous inhabitants existed in lands before CURRENT people, because people die and demographics change for various reasons. The Turks descended upon the Middle East that was already peopled, occupying Jerusalem, spreading Islam, which is what sparked the Crusades. Let's not forget these human phenomena, of invasions and usurpation of land, which is so old it's antediluvian and universal. The current Palestinians have no greater right to claim Jerusalem than the Jews who have Biblical AND historical claims on the area.
To all of you who say that the Bible is "a fiction," you're the same ones who doubt God's existence yet are apt to believe in aliens, whom you ALSO haven't seen, unless you mean people who cross borders. "Aliens": a misnomer if ever there was one.
I know the history of occupying and then conquering goes back centuries and centuries. The aggressor and the vanquished are the characters in this scenario. In this case the pesky vanquished don't know they are vanquished? The means they use are not valid why? Because there are atrocities on both sides you make the choice of awarding the moral high ground to one over the other why? Because it is written? And quickening the process from outside helps what? God? I think it is a weak argument at best.
As far as those that don't believe in God, do you know who they all are in here? You know there are no atheists in foxholes so even if there is an expression of doubt it is never to late. Maybe they don't believe as you so you are the judge of true belief? Is Jesus the only way or are there other faiths that are acceptable. How many practice Wahhabis ways in Islam and how many are radical? How many Muslims adhere to the culture and ways that are not living in the Holy Lands? Is it religion that these radicals followers practice or is it a combination of culture and perverted leaders? Does that ever happen in Christianity? How about Jim Jones and David Koresh? Was it religion or cult (short for culture) that led their followers astray? How does that relate to the oppression of 60 plus years being thrown out of their homes in the Holy Lands?
I would really like to know where you stand on these questions and how it pertains to your assertions.
Of course the "pesky vanquished" know that they are. It is sad, part of man's eternal inhumanity to man, but it's nothing new. It is an unfortunate part of the human condition of which we seem unable to rid ourselves. The usurpation of land is an outrage, but it's happened since time began. It'll go on happening until humans agree to respect long-established borders and live in peace.
This, "And quickening the process from outside helps what? God?" is absolute gibberish. Please try to make sense, even if your English isn't that good.
The atheistic reference was aimed at the person who wrote that the Bible is "a fiction" in response to one of my postings. Notice the quotation marks. It is likely, though not necessarily, that he is an atheist or an agnostic. If he's neither, he certainly questions the authenticity of the Bible.
Since I'm no more all-knowing than you, I have no clue as to whether Christ is the only way to God, but He is for me personally. However, I am less concerned with religion than I am with morality, which is apparently a taller order for human beings than religion. What is religion but supposed piety and rituals, when one can rise from one's prayers and set off bombs that kill other human beings; and this applies to both sides in the subject conflict. If I haven't been clear, and I admit that I haven't, I decry the violence from both sides. But don't forget what set off this latest round of .violence: the killing of the three Israeli teenagers, followed by endless horrid incidences of tit for tat by each side in response.
I don't know if any or all of your questions are merely rhetorical, or just you thinking out loud. For the Islamic radicals, in my opinion, it's cultural (of which religion is a part), and political. They tend to have pretty harsh societies, with olden, backward norms and values, and public but especially domestic life is harsh for some segments of their societies. Backwardness and misogyny are encouraged, as in Pakistan, another place where Islam reigns supreme; where a young woman was nearly killed just because she promulgated the education of girls.
"Does that ever happen in Christianity?" Of course it does and it has, but not as often in the twenty-first century. Most of the religious controversies between Christians have been settled for the most part. The Protestant Reformation occurred, and now, peacefully, there are different sects that aren't trying to eradicate others. Jehovah Witnesses are among the few that still actively attempts to win over people to their sect.
Jones and Koresh operated cults. But as I already suggested, Christians have pretty much gotten over themselves and are living their lives within their various faiths that came about post-Reformation. Religious affiliation notwithstanding, as people who want to live a semblance of peace and happiness, we go to the movies, help our kids with homework, plan a career, and go to church; but the latter isn't the be-all and end-all as it once was, and that may actually be for the better. We're about the business of life, not planning death every minute and to force others to believe as we do. We had that horrific period in Christianity, called the Inquisition. Religion writ large has wreaked hell on earth, created more problems than it's worth. Better to be a quiet believer in God who follows his laws, and place morality above religion, but not above God. It should be acknowledged to their GREAT credit, that Jews don't proselytize. The histories of Christianity and Islam might have been less stained, and those of us in these faiths less hypocritical, if our over-zealous forefathers had emulated Judaism in that regard.
"Was it religion or cult (short for culture) that led their followers astray? How does that relate to the oppression of 60 plus years being thrown out of their homes in the Holy Lands?" You posed the question, but it isn't quite germane to the topic. Muslim extremists have overrun the Middle East and Africa like locusts, doing nothing but harm (the kidnapped girls in Nigeria being yet another recent example of Muslims at work), with the exception of those countries in which Islam doesn't rule the roost, countries like Morocco, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, as well as other countries that are part of the United Arab Emirates.
You speak of 60-plus years of Muslims being thrown out of their homes in "Holy Lands." Don't forget history, please. The Crusades began as a result of the MUSLIM take-over of Jerusalem and other areas held sacred to Christians, which were at that time held by Christians. You need to acknowledge that invasions, take-overs, colonialism, etc., have been carried out by men of many if not all races, and some religions, for millennia. Before the Muslims were in Palestine, Christians controlled Jerusalem. Muslims pushed them out.
I am rather weary of this topic. If it were a problem that lent itself to an easy solution, it would've happened already. It hasn't because both sides are uncompromising, but in my opinion, it is the today's Palestinians, whose representatives, Hamas, the Al Qaedas and Hezbollahs of the world, who are more uncompromising and want there to be no Jewish state at all. There are some 30-odd Arab/Muslim countries in the region, yet it seems absolutely without reason that there should be one, ONE place for Jews who have suffered thousands of years of persecutions and pogroms throughout history!
I won't be commenting again, whether or not you write some factually inaccurate and tone-deaf response, and I will even cease receiving notifications on the topic. It's exasperating, particularly when people have no respect for facts; won't acknowledge history, or realize that one culture, whether racial, religious or political, almost always and/or ultimately replaces another; even when it isn't a hostile takeover. One day, with the ever-changing demographics of the United States, people of Hispanic origin will be in the majority, and you can be sure that some will be very angry; perhaps even to the point of wanting to or taking up arms.
The word "lunatic" is increasingly becoming the most appropriate way to describe the actions of the IDF recently. Shelling a school while the kids are being collected from the playground (according to news reports)? Really? Is that really justifiable under any circumstances?
Did your news reports sources include any that weren't pro-Palestinian, like Aljazeera, or anti-American/Israel, like RT.com?
A quick news search from possibly less biased sources were all inconclusive. Maybe it was Israeli artillery, maybe is was a Hamas rocket that fell short, maybe is was a Hamas bomb, maybe, maybe, etc. etc.
I could not find enough reliable data to form an opinion either way - so what did you find to make you so sure that the IDF did it?
ps. several articles mentioned that the IDF had the coordinates for UN schools - so could it have been an errant artillery round? Or could it have been an errant Hamas rocket? Seems too soon to tell from my perspective.
So maybe there might be another application for lunatic in this case.
Al Jazeera is Qatari. A western friend. Let me ask you, why Al Jazeera can broadcast on western land and not the Syrian tv? Do you have the answer to my question?
No, I don't have an answer for you. I did not know that they could not. Nor does that change my opinion of their regional bias.
ps. Could I venture a guess that it might have something to do with freedoms?
Freedom? What do you mean? That one of the extremist fundamentalist country in the world has free speech? Is it what you meant?
If you have been reading/listening/watching the news at all in the last few weeks you will know that the killing and wounding of children in this conflict is not limited to this one event. Are you suggesting that all the pictures/videos/reports of dead and injured children are from biased sources? Make no mistake I think both sides are acting like lunatics, but it just so happens that Israel is the better armed (and defended) of the two, and is currently the one killing children. So yes, I think lunacy is an apt term for the way the Israeli leadership is acting at the moment.
Yes, I am aware of the tragic consequences the Palestinian civilians are suffering. My response had nothing to do with that. I only addressed the inconclusiveness that it was Israel that bombed/rocketed/shelled, (are they even sure yet which it was), the UN school.
But since you make the point... do you believe that Israel should be rendered impotent and forbidden to respond to Hamas rockets because Hamas uses civilian neighborhoods as military headquarters, arsenals, staging grounds, and attack launch points?
I haven't researched the truth of the claim, but it is said that Israel has used public announcements and telephone warnings to let civilians know a specific area is targeted - if this is true, what else would you have Israel do except just hunker down and bear the Hamas rocket attacks?
This is a topic I have been involved in for more than 10 years when I participated in a Middle East discussion forum, and I asked a Palestinian the naive question of why a 15 year-old girl would strap on a suicide vest, and understanding the futility, I did not mean to get involved in this discussion. But sometimes the most blatant examples of conclusion-jumping circumvents my better judgement.
The logic that it is "OK" or "understandable" that the Palestinian "fighters" use terroristic tactics because they can't match Israel's military is an old and worn argument. Using civilians as suicide bombers and military shields has no defense - in my opinion.
The OP talks about Norman Finkelstein describing Israel's behaviour as lunatic, and I agree with that description. I'm not sure how you get from that, to the idea that I think it is ok or understandable for Hamas to commit murder. I don't. Does the fact that Hamas uses civilian neighborhoods as military headquarters mean that you think Israel is beyond any criticism of it's response?
Do I think Israel should be forbidden to respond to Hamas' rockets? I think Israel and Hamas should immediately stop killing and injuring, get round a table and work out a settlement, not just to this conflict but the whole Israel/Palestine issue. When Palestinians kill Israelis, it leads to Palestinian kids being killed and maimed by the IDF. When Israelis kill Palestinian kids, it leads to 15 year-old Palestinian girls becoming suicide bombers. Both sides know this, and continue doing exactly the same things over and over again, yet somehow expect a different result. That is the epitome of lunacy in my book.
It appears we have similar opinions of the lunacy of the history of Palestinian/Israeli conflicts.
But it also appears we have different opinions of Israel's culpability and response measures.
I am not hanging any halos over Israel's IDF - but I believe they have tolerated more ... oops, it is useless to continue this thought, (I don't mean just with you)
I accept Israel's actions as necessary - you don't. So we disagree.
But at least we had a civil exchange - thanks.
"But it also appears we have different opinions of Israel's culpability and response measures."
I'm happy to explore that response, and if we can't keep it civil here, then I don't hold out much hope for those affected by this conflict.
Reports vary, but most I've seen place Palestinian civilian deaths at over 1000, and Israeli civilian deaths at around 3. Even accounting for a variation in exact figures from different sources, it seems Israel is using disproportionate force here. It's also clear that the situation is causing a humanitarian crisis for the general population in Gaza. If the Israeli leadership wanted to make a point, then they have. Now it needs to stop. Everyday this is looking more and more like a massacre that cannot be justified even by the despicable actions of Hamas. All Israel is doing now is creating the next generation of terrorists which will do more harm in the long term than good.
Yes, Israel's better-armed, and for damned-good historical reasons. Thank God! "Never again!"
Yes and full of nuclear targets too, right. What will be the likelihood for a rocket to reach one of them? Roughly? And it will be well deserved. If the killing of Palestinians don't affect you as a woman watch me being indifferent to your dissolution! You easily forget where you are. You are not isolated on an island, are you? What will happen when the crisis will hit the US, Europe do you REALLY think that Israhell will be of any importance for the West?
I couldn't disagree more. Israel is engaged in a rational destruction of a bloody handed terrorist organization that routinely manipulates Palestinians through propaganda, places its illegal weapons in civilian structures - a war crime and seeks the outright slaughter of Jews and Christians. The ill informed will be incredulous but reality demonstrates what armies have known for centuries, peace comes when the enemy's will to fight is broken. The constant capitulation by Israel to Hamas,Fatah, the PLO, etc... has led to a state of war that can only end one way, the breaking of Palestinians' will to fight. If you want a recent historical reference, check WWII.
Wars do not end with peace talks and exchanges of the real for the imagined - land for peace. Wars end when there is a victor and a vanquished, with the vanquished suing for peace or outright capitulating. The peace between Israel, Jordan and Egypt is a direct consequence of the costly defeats of those two Muslim states. When the Palestinians give up the idea of war then there will be peace. If that requires the destruction of Hamas, so be it.
Educate yourself before you open your mouth!
Hamas is a terrorist organisation who aim is to kill all the Jews in Israel, it's brothers in the Muslim extremist would like to wipeout all Jews anywhere ( take a look in their holy book).
The so called Palestinians would have you believe that they are the rightful airs to the region, however looking at the true history of the region the name Palestinian didn't even exist until recent history well past the the 1948 decree which mentions Jews and Arabs.
Now can anyone tell me what they would do if someone was intent on killing you, your family, your friends, your friends friends and everyone you will ever know what would you do? I know exactly what I would destroy him, his family, his friends and his friends friends before he done it to me.
Now if you can persuade my enemy to not attack me I will vow mot to attack them, if you can persuade him that if we can work together for peace I will work with him.
Many here talk about the aims of Zionism and stay very quite about the aims of radical Islam as if it doesn't exist.
At the moment it is the cowards in the IDF who are killing complete families. Yesterday 25 people from the same Gazan family were obliterated, including toddlers.
No intent. No threat. Just action. Just mass murder.
Israel imposed a unilateral siege and blockade in 2006. That's an act of war, that's a declaration of war. That is terror.
The root of this massacre of the innocents is the illegal siege. Stop the siege, obey the law, join the civilised and truly democratic nations.
You said Silverspeeder that "I know exactly what I would destroy him, his family, his friends and his friends friends before he done it to me."
I pity you for such horrific sentiments. But they expose your fascist hatred
My fascist hatred? And this from a man who is obviously a Jew hater.
I heard it said that Hamas would fight to the last child! And it seems like that is what they are doing....
And now Egypt love their Arab brothers soufh they won't let them over the only border not controlled by the Israelies.
The blockade has been in place for 7 years, ever since Hamas ( who want all Jews dead) won the election. Now correct me if I am wrong but didn't the palistinians know that of they voted for the Jew killers they would suffer? Are they really that stupid?
Now I shall say it again if you have sworn to kill me I shall fight you until you are no longer a threat. And if you put your family in the way theyay get hurt!
If "radical Islam" had its way, all women would be denied education, would be forced to wear burkahs, walk behind men, be stoned for adultery (as if they were alone), disbarred from driving, continue to worship Allah separate from men in basements of mosques, and it would spread all of its antediluvian ideas around the world. If it had its druthers, it would turn the United States into an Islamic State, with "bombs bursting in air" EVERY day, because that's how they like to live, not as human beings who have aspirations of living, peace, and some measure of happiness. If the people are not radical, then they should rise up against their so-called leaders who lead them down a destructive path towards death on a daily basis, with no say in the matter, whether they want to risk being blown to smithereens because the leaders put their military response to Israel in their midst. Israel hits back at the source of the aggression, wherever it is. It's sad that it's among the innocent, but that's just a measure of those who're fighting, who have a death-wish for themselves as well as for their people.
What a bigot you are Ribadu. And why are you spreading garbage about Islam overcoming the USA? We're talking about Palestine here.
Israeli rabbis, politicians and right-wing extremists have expounded obscene and deadly diatribes against Palestinians. Get your own house in order about the "only democracy in the Middle-East"
The human rights of the people of Gaza are enshrined in international law.
They have a right to live without occupation and siege. That's the law
They have a right to live without bombardment and slaughter. That's the law.
Israel is acting criminally. That's the law. Geneva Convention torn up, UN Resolutions laughed off, International Court of Justice ignored
They don't even treat their OWN like humans, so what do they know of "human rights." When you deny women education because they are women, and religion is the be-all and end-all, not health care, education, safety, LIVING, human rights is the least of their concerns. How human is it to put explosives in HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, in people's HOMES, no less, and then feel atrocities have been committed when those same spots are retaliated against? Does anyone in that religion practice logic? My opinion is mine and yours are yours. The only progressive Muslim countries are those where Islam is practiced but not fanatically, and where recently they've relented on some of their more draconian practices that impede the freedom of women.
Where is the religious logic in Israel invading the West Bank, forcing Palestinians off their land to build Israeli settlements. When the Palestinians throw stones in protest Israel responds with bullets. Israel may have a right to exist but it has no right to commit ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. Of course Israel believes it is above the law and that the life of an Israeli is worth 20 Palestinians.
If Palestine was self-ruled sans the Israeli-Palestinian problem, it would be a Muslim country split between Shiite and Sunni Muslims, or some other iteration of Islam; there would still be sectarian violence and bloodshed, and an economy that is as pathetic for Palestinians as it presently is, because orthodox Muslims and their leaders have decided that above all else, their religion matters, regardless of poverty and ignorance in their midst. In fact, as a famous man pinpointed a long time ago, "religion is the opium of the masses," to take their minds off of their abject poverty, while the haves go on having. They'd rather go on misleading their people that the enemy is infidel, foreign, and other, and that they should be about rising from their prayers rugs, five times a day, no less, and bombing their way toward some elusive goal.
So your answer to a state with religious sectarian issues is for another state to invade and dispossess the people from their land?
Kind of sounds like home without the wars. Religion is messy and so are politics. Are you suggesting a better form of government for them? What would that look like? Iran? Or maybe Turkey who doesn't want to even talk to us anymore? Or maybe we ought to set them up like we did in Iraq? How about Afghanistan? There we have surpassed ourselves many times over by the longest running war in American history. When the US steps into others affairs it is a death sentence to any peace being made until we leave. We fought in Viet Nam and when we left there was eventual peace. We now openly trade with them, our sworn enemies of the '60's!
Can we please just step away and that includes supplying weapons and or money to either side and let them work this out themselves? Please!
shinkicker, Nadia is right. You have no idea what you're talking about. Palestine is using their people as human shields. Israel has tried the negotioation route, many times, but Palestine refuses to hold up their end of the bargain. And then... Palestine begins again, firing rockets randomly into Israel and killing civilians. Of course, Israel is forced to defend their nation against this egregious form of terrorism. Meanwhile, Al Jezeera twists the facts in their newscasts and, make no mistake, their pockets are deep enough to be perceived as professional, thus allowing them to get away with broadcasting news that is extremely biased.
The Palestinians don't need to negotiate. The West Bank and East Jerusalem is their land. It's their legal right to have their land back and allow their people to return. The Israelis should leave.
UN Resolutions 194 and 242 state that clearly. So please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
You have made an excellent point about Hamas. The problem is what necessitated the forming and administering of this organization in the first place. If we throw away the reasons and start from the present the past animosities and hatred will always fester and seethe under the surface. Hamas has evolved out of failed attempts to reconcile what continues from day one. The taking and occupying of their lands. Hamas feeds the anger and makes policy to cater to it. A war cry if you will. Israel refuses to compromise on these issues and the violence continues. Many speak of the atrocities leveled against women and children. The only explanation is that the despair is meted out to those who ignore it. Is it righteous in the eyes of God? No one can know but we are not God and we suffer according to our inequities.
Well said rhamson.
My only concern is where can we place day one? Back in 1948 or before?
It has to stop now. And then start from now.
It'll never stop, and it's widely believe that because Jerusalem is a major part of the equation, if not THE crux of the matter, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the conflict to end all conflicts because of the city's ancient, Biblical importance to Jews, who were the Palestinians, among others, even before the Christian Era.
The Bible is a fiction therefore you can't use it to justify the presence of Jews in Palestine. Secondly being Jew is being religious. The Jews are not a race. Don't try to convince the educated ones.
....It'll never stop, and it's widely believe that because Jerusalem is a major part of the equation, if not THE crux of the matter....
You may be right but if it were only centered on their own participation of it. When the world is drawn into this through either political (UN and the US involvement) or economically (the oil as described as the main impetus for foreign defense of it through an ally) then you have a quagmire of differing reasons and opinions.
....the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the conflict to end all conflicts because of the city's ancient, Biblical importance to Jews.
That is the a duplicitous statement because the Christians are looking for the signs when this total overthrow can take place. I have heard from many American Christians and read in the bible that the hastening of the takeover is in accordance with the end of days as stated in John's dream in Revelations. If that is so, is it God's plan as well to have a little help from the US. I think it is artificial to say so but that is my opinion.
....who were the Palestinians, among others, even before the Christian Era.
Yes the Jews were a part of Palestine since way back but they were just another tribe and when they came back in numbers it was with the help of a Big Brother that gave them nuclear might. Good job Israel! You have effectively become a US footprint because you walk lightly and carry our big stick now.
Last time this subject came up, I recommended a book to Silverspeeder, and would like to urge anyone interested in the middle east situation to check it out. Here is the hyper link to that thread:
Ah yes those evil Zionists are at it again. How dare they defend their selves after their children are kidnapped and rockets are shot into their neighborhoods!
Don't believe the hype! Stop Jewish expansionism on those poor Arabs who have absolutely nowhere to go.
I think it would be a great idea to auction off your house to a minority homeless person. Then we can give the money to you so you can build a tent in the back yard.
Get the point?
If your point is that you haven't read any history books, then you demonstrated it perfectly.
The fact is less than one million people lived in the under developed and under populated area previous to the Jewish migration. And the people of what was previously a part of the kingdom of Jordan were never recognized under Turkish rule as having their own national identity.
Before World War One they did not experience freedom of speech, religion, or assembly, but they did however experience two centuries of grinding poverty.
Since that time, for the first time, the Palestinians have been offered a partitioned state and their own sovereignty, and time after time, treaty after treaty, concession after concession, they have answered the offer with violence and bloodshed.
your entire profile picture is evidence enough to make you the least credible person here without even reading the filth your write
I guess not judging a book by it's cover isn't an expression you are familiar with. Oh well, Mazel tov brother!
I have judged the cover and read the contents of the book, both disgusting. Shallom to you, son of Adam.
The truth can be repulsive to some. Enjoy your video game world. I'm sure it's a nice escape from reality.
good to know you do research to give a bad insult
And you did absolutely no research to throw out insults. No arguing facts or anything intelligent, just vitriol.
Given your answers I don't see much research neither, Onus. Your map, for instance, in what is it factual? And you are asking from yousif objectivity?
Looks pretty clear to me. I presented a map of territory owned by Jews and Muslims. That's about as straight forward as it gets. You haven't asked for, nor asserted any facts, his only objective seems to be character assasination because he disagrees for some reason. I don't know what that reason is because he hasn't given one.
Bin laden is still dead, or is he? Where are the drones when you need them.
Brilliant and typical that one of your apparent ilk wouldn't be able to get past a picture, THAT IS IF you were addressing Nadia Ribadu. See if I care what your unread comment means to me even if I acknowledge it for the nothing-remark it is. I've studied more books than covers you've just glanced at and declared yourself having read cover to cover.
Funny with all that knowledge of history (of which I am very well versed in) you cannot distinguish between the rights of an individual regardless of their national borders and the flagrant dissolving of their rights as a land owner. Is it that we have to carry a flag and have an army to maintain that which is ours? But your take on the greater good is a peculiar one as the result of this debacle is endless war. So much for your so called historical prowess.
Well historically land has been fought over since the dawn of civilization, nothing different in this case.
Perhaps America should give the Northeast to Mexico. That way California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, will all be in just as crappy of a state as, well, Mexico.
You know, that land of milk and honey where daily thousands of people attempt to escape in order to come here.
So the unresolved area that was changed by the Balfour Declaration was a retaking of the land they lost control of how? Or was it Herzi's assertion of a Jewish State in Palestine that made it theirs. How come they did not want a part of Uganda? How come other countries including England decided the fate of other peoples property? Because in all the confusion in the process of the break up of the British Empire it seemed nobody would care? Well some people do care and a hundred years later they are still caring. Your contention that it was decided and accepted that Israel would take possession by other entities was enough to discount the original owners claims? That the Israelis have done more with the land is some sort of validation? Like I said how would it feel if you were living in your backyard of the home someone else decided was in their best interests? I think outrage is too subtle a term to describe it.
Again there were less than one million people living in the entire area prior to the Jewish migration. That is roughly the population of Sandiego. So imagine Sandiego decided they wanted to be their own soverign nation (which is silly because they were never their own country in the first place) and other countries decided to help them out by flooding the city with an arsenal to defend itsself from California. Well I think California has the right to keep Sandiego. But if they decided that they just couldn't stand being around any Californians to the point that they would throw bombs at the rest of California I think Californians would have the right to defend themselves.
I am really confused with this one. Your analogy has the inference that Israel is San Diego or the Palestinians is San Diego in your analogy?
That explains it perfectly. Its always good to be right when you make no sense. Your analogy sucks.
It only sucks because you disagree. And the idea that a large, underpopulated, and undeveloped piece of land belongs solely to a tiny group of Jordanians who decided afterwards to call themselves Palestinians is ludicrous.
And it is that small group that decided they can not live in peace with their neighbors. And they make that decision daily. In fact they just turned down yet another offer for a ceasefire and a peaceful resolution. Nope, they would rather use human shields, and residential neighborhoods to house the rockets that they keep hurling at the Israelis like a bunch of cowards.
It sucked because it did not exhibit the same conditions. "A small group" happened to own the area in question BEFORE the UN and its cronies decided they were not important enough to consider. You keep wishing to fast forward to the conflict now as some type of justification of the Israeli's occupation of the land. Merely because the Palestinians are willing to fight an impossible war from an impossible position does not make the Israeli's right. What would have been a better analogy is if the San Diego people were ordered out or their homes while Mexico's homeless were given the property by China. And then the Chinese armed them and gave them money.
Except for the fact that they were given the arms and became violent before they were forced to leave their homes. Something that could have been avoided if their leaders did not foster a deep seeded hatred for Jews among the people. But I digress, Muslims seem to carry violence with them in so many places. Chechnia, The Phillipines, Paris, etc.
Before you become totally indoctrinated by the lies maybe you should read this.
Well by all means rather than making a blanket statement, please point out a lie that I have prepetuated.
You can't seem to see anything but what you believe to be the truth to you. You have swallowed the whole tale hook line and sinker as most and cannot be enlightened to a second side to the story. The lies are in front of you and yet you cannot see. The propaganda is complete when those that believe will not question. I am sorry I cannot help you.
You can not help because that would involve pointing out lies that I may have prepetuated. Since you can point out none, you result to baseless character assasination.
Give me a ring when you figure out what I,ve lied about.
Your link had a very biased agenda - the truth.
Yes, the roots of Israel are dark, as are the roots of most nations. But, do you see any possibility of restorative justice as a solution?
I think not. So, while I agree with your perspective about the "current view" held by most Americans - educating that view would have no bearing are a current day solution.
It doesn't matter if they are are justified or not, Hamas will destroy the Palestinians. It is a battle of dead children images against Hamas rockets in school rooms surrounded by a shield of children.
Hamas and their agenda are the worst possible leaders of Palestinian hopes for any type of normalcy. There should be a choice of "accept and live' (as much of an injustice as it may be), or a"I will hate and fight you to my last breath, and my two year-old son's too" options.
Israel, as a state, can never be undone. Return of the disposed will never be undone. So what are the choices? Die in righteousness or live and strive?
And I believe you speak the truth as well. What can be done is the million dollar question. The problem seems to be exasperated by the inexhaustible support of the US for Israel. Israel keeps inching out the local Palestinians with every war and action and every in between that takes place. This only emboldens Hamas to harass and maim wherever and whatever they can. They do not necessarily have much support from the Palestinians except that they are the only game in town that will stand up to the Israelis. The ridiculousness of the situation is that the Israelis only purpose seems to be to break the Palestinians will, but instead it fans more fire to the flames. Israel through its expansionist policies dating back to the sixties will yield no ground based on strategic military advantages that Hamas can have such as the Golan Heights, but hold onto other regions as well as spoils of war and other excuses is disingenuous. What can Israel do to stop the terror then? The choices are endless war or a compromise and that doesn't stop at a cease fire. The US has been given a very thorough indoctrination of propaganda from this region and support for Israel an uncompromising situation. My question is what would be Israel's situation with regard to peace terms if big brother withdrew from the fracas?
If big brother America withdrew from their support then the Israelis would cease to exist. All of the Moslems would fulfill their promise to drive the Jews into the sea.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Aha! I knew that was your angle. It all makes sense. It will never make sense as you draw belief into the mix. You are not telling lies after all. You are just repeating what you have been programmed to say. I get it now and there is no sensible discussion to be had as everything from here on out is conjecture.
Conjecture is to posit that my position is unsupported. Since you are blind to the inability to compromise and violent history of Hamas the conjecture would be on your part.
“It is impossible for us to make an understanding with them [Jews] or even to live them together… Their history and all their past proves that it is impossible to live with them. In all the countries where they are at present they are not wanted and undesirables, because they always arrive to suck the blood of everybody, and to become economically and financially victorious. If the League of Nations will not listen to the appeal of the Arabs this country will become a river of blood." -Aref Dajani
Okay so you want to jump back to the secular realm without any soothsaying. The problem with your fairness is that very little has been given the Palestinians. The okay stop fighting and nothing happens while Israel continues to take land or make new decrees limiting their freedom of movement and or their ability to make a living is no longer acceptable. The problem is that you think this is a war when it really is a street fight with big weapons. The more horrible it becomes the more unsustainable it becomes. Hamas is the product of a past that was ignored. Now it is a means by which it can be heard. To promise the elimination of Israel as a mantra is what feeds the hatred that has been bred for years of oppression. Is it right? I don't think it is a expeditious way of doing things as one side has to wear down the other to be successful. This alone has proven itself by its longevity. So what is the answer in your estimation? To kill all the bad Hamas so the Israelis can finish their conquest?
I hope that is a joke. You must never heard of the mandate for Palestine, the 1917 Balfour Declaration. Palestinian response- burn homes, destroy property, and attack neighboring Jews. Chanting in the streets that they will drink the blood of the Jews.
1937 Jews were given a territory 20% that of the remaining Mandate territory giving the Palestinians 80% of the rest
Palestinian response- reject the plan, continue with armed revolt.
after WWII another 2 state solution was developed by the UN with equal division of land between the Jews and Arabs.
Palestinian response- Reject the plan, 1948 League of five Arab nations launches an attack against the Jews. "This will be a war of extermination, and a momentous massacre" vowed Arab League secretary general Abdul Azan.
Jordan then annexed the West bank, and Gaza went to Egypt for 18 years. At that time there was no protest from the Palestinians. They didn't care that they were now under an oppressive regime.
President Clinton held a conference to give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians
Palestinian response- Yasser Arafat walks out of negotiations, goes home and invokes a second infitada fraught with three years of rockets and suicide bombers.
2008 another attempt by Israel to return to the pre-1967 boarders.
Palestinian response- violence, suicide bombers, etc.
Today, the same.
Each time the Jews have bent over backwards to appease the Arabs, and each time it was met with nothing but violence. The Jews have done everything in their power to attempt to live peacefully with the Palestinians but the Palestinians refuse to coexist.
Typical response of yours. Vilify the wronged. What right did Lord Balfour have in the declaration? The British Empire was crumbling and with the recent demise of the Ottoman Empire the Brits wanted a quick way out. The Jews were given a choice and chose the Holy Lands to be "given" land to establish their foothold. Once again whose was it for the Brits to give it away. With the UN jumping in the fracas in the '40's the US took it on themselves to back the plan out of fairness to the Jews. The very people the US turned away in 1939 in Miami after the Cubans turned them away only to return to Belgium where the passengers were split among the countries that would accept them.
The question remains who gave the UN the right to "give away" something that was not theirs. The Arabs in the region greatly protested and did not accept the 1947 decree.
So you chastise those who defended their rights to their own land and question the methods because outside interference is right in their assessment?
As I said before the idea that someone is given your house and you are "allowed" to stay in the back yard affects you how? Give up because it is the right thing to do by those that occupy your house? No. After all is said and done it will never settle with you and you will hold "all" those responsible including the United States who condones and enables those that occupy your house.
Once again we are talking about a piece of land half the size of Iraq that was occupied by less than 1 million people, 10% of which were Jews. Those JORDANIANS who lived there previously experienced two centuries of grinding poverty and oppression. It was never owned by Palestinians, and they never asked for it to be until the Israelis came along. They would rather experience ZERO freedom under Turkish or Egyptian rule than to live peacefully with the Jews.
If you really believe that the Palestinians are the victims then you need to go to the back of your little hippie Prius and tear off the "coexist" bumper sticker because you are a hypocrite.
Temper, temper now. You are repeating the same thing over and over again wanting it to mean something different. If a man has a plot of land languishing along the road and an enterprising person comes along and decides he has a better use for that land is it his right to just take it reasoning that he is in need of the land and can make better use of it? That is your premise, plain and simple. Whatever bunk you want to throw in on top of it does not change that. The funny thing is that you expect the wronged individual to accept that and have no ill will on those that perpetrated and facilitated the act. If after over a hundred years the act only gets worse you expect to just stamp those ill feelings out?
I will not stoop to calling you names as you but I will tell you this, The proof is in the pudding and if you cannot see the results of a crime that has been heaped upon the people who actually owned the original land and the properties that have subsequently been taken over the years you certainly don't belong in this conversation. Because your lack of objectivity will always bring you back to insulting behavior with no point to be made.
Sorry, but the land never belonged to them. The only crime that has been heaped on the Palestinians is the ruthless regime that endangers their own people every day by hiding rockets among their homes, schools, hospitals and Mosques. That would be Hamas. The only goal for them is conquest and complete destruction of the Jews. Sorry if you don't understand that. Hamas has no interest in the safety of their own people or living peacfully with their neighbors.
Why would you support a group of cowards who hide behind children?
As I said with a complete lack of objectivity your bias precludes you from the conversation much less any conclusions. I am sorry for you.
And your argument is objective in what way?!
I'll tell you what. I can give you an objective fact. One side wants the other side dead. The other side wants to coexist peacefully.
Certainly not by your method of working from the answer to the conclusion. You stated it yourself....
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
And again I can't help you because your programmed responses shut down thought and objective discussion.
Well you started off by insisting that I am buying into a thread of lies. I am still waiting for you to refute them. If there were an objective response it is yet to have been made. Particularly by you.
I reiterate: I can't help you because your programmed responses shut down thought and objective discussion.
And your objective discussion lacks objectivity. Clearly you are in favor of the proliferation of a terrorist organization. Rather than recognizing the fact that they are always the aggressors you tout a typical pro Palestinian agenda.
Onusonus, I hope you don't mind if I butt in - maybe I can offer a perspective that might help you and rHamson find a common ground for further discussion.
And so that you don't misunderstand my intent - I will say first that I support that Israel, at this point in history, has a right to exist as a State.
I will also state that the terror tactics of Hamas are the wrong choice and are hurting the Palestinian people - and provide Israel with the justification they need to to achieve their long-term goals while maintaining the good graces of world opinion, (ie. the West).
You need to look a little deeper than your gut feelings and the "facts" presented by the U.S. media.
Israel is oppressing the Palestinian civilian population.
Israel does have the long-term goal of a unified state - which includes all of the West Bank.
U.S. Israel lobbies are extremely influential in directing U.S. policy in favor of Israel - to the point that defying them is as dangerous for a politician as tackling the Social Security fixes needed. Meaning, deadly
for their careers.
The numerous U.S. supported "Peace Plans" have all contained aspects that make good sound bites that make the Palestinians look like the stumbling block - but in truth contain structures that would be unacceptable to anyone in the Palestinian's position.
For instance; Israel's land for peace give-aways - they have repeatedly been structured to leave islands of Palestinian communities pocketed between Israeli roads and boundaries that the Palestinians would not be allowed to access. Picture the Canary Islands, except, instead of oceans separating the islands it is Israeli enclaves and by-pass roads.
And on, and on, and on...
My only point is to prod you to do a little reading to further inform your opinion. I purposely did not provide links because links for or against any point of view can be found. If you are really interested in validating your opinion you will find more than enough information to make you, either feel comfortable with your position, or realize that the media's presentation of this issue is not one you should rely on as your only basis for feeling the way you do.
Here's hoping you accept the challenge to broaden your horizons.
Well GA that was a well informed and thought out statement. I am already well aware of the situation that the Palestinian people have created for themselves. It is a dire one but not one that goes without fault on the part of the Palestinians.
The fact is the Israelis want peace, coexistance, and a single open state where Jews and arabs can live together freely. They can't have that because the Palestinians don't want it, which is something that the media fails to report. Also the media has been for several months pouring out in favor of the poor victims of their big bad Jewish oppressors.
You have harassed this conversation with a one sided approach from claims of surrounded little Israel against the whole middle east to biblical prophesies about the end of times to nobody had any claim to the land before the Balfour agreement. All of it to bolster the theory that Israel wronged no one along the way. And yet you speak of objectivity?
If you read any of what I have said you would have caught that I don't back Hamas. I only offered an explanation why it has grown in power. But instead of asking why it has grown you just want to condemn and call people names because I don't agree with you. I don't approve of Israel's claim on the land and their treatment of the people it rules over. They continue to gobble up land and displace thousands because they can. Yet the US blindly backs Israel with billions of dollars and military equipment.
My contention is that nobody or no one changes their behavior unless they are forced to face it. The enabling influence of the US and the Arab countries who secretly support these two are the ones who are at fault. What needs to be done is let them work it out themselves and let the chips fall where they may. But as long as attitudes such as yours to have our government support one side or the other continues it shall never end.
Interesting, I never said anything about Biblical prophecies or end times, Israel is surrounded by Arab countries that hate them, and I said it belonged to Jordan, not nobody.
But let me take a moment to correct you on the largest error you made in your character assassination attempt on me. Clearly I have chosen a side, (it's what people with backbones do), I never made the claim that I was being objective, in fact I never said anything about it. You are the one who has it in his brain that there is some kind of moral superiority to pretending to be objective.
Throughout the rest of your response you say that Hamas is bad yet the people who back them, elect them, house them, etc. are not, and the Israelis are bad for wanting to keep their people safe from the nice Palestinians who keep attacking them.
Also Those mean Jews are backed by Corporate America, (which is bad???) But ignore the fact that Palestine is funded by guess who?!! Big bad corporate America, ($400 million annually). That's pretty much the meat and potatoes of your argument wrapped up at the end with a slight tinge of objectivity in the last paragraph.
I've got news for you; you haven't really been objective about the subject from the start. The jig is up.
Thank you for the entertaining fantasy trip you have taken me on. Really if you are not yet in politics you should consider it.
....then you need to go to the back of your little hippie Prius and tear off the "coexist" bumper sticker because you are a hypocrite.
Yeah, that was a pretty good hominem I threw out there. The difference being mine was preceded by a couple of paragraphs of actual facts n' stuff. Whereas you got nothing.
I haven't seen propaganda this bad since the Soviet Union collapsed.
"A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail, so spill the blood of all Arabs" Dev Lior
See we can all post dumb quotes.
Right except that killing Arabs is not in the charter of the Israeli government, whereas it is not only a part of the Hamas charter to exterminate the Jews, it is at the forefront, and their guiding principle. Hence if anyone were to actually crack open a history book you would find the Jews have always been willing to compromise whereas the Palestinians have always been willing to cause as much terror and destruction as possible.
You mean the Hamas that was funded and supported by Israel? Good point, why I wonder did Israel support the rise of a radical Islamist group another thing we need to write up as one of their many many sins.
If you create a radical opposition you don't get to turn around and say "oh man these guys are radical guys, so let us kill them and any civilians nearby, in fact let's kill 83% civilians".
And why do you suppose that 83% of the casualties are civilians?
Because perhaps the most advanced army in the world certainly the best funded per member, is incapable of killing terrorists without killing 5 times as many civilians.
But mainly because Israel supported a group that uses human shields and created it's own problem.
Or maybe America should give back its land to the natives. It would not bother me to live under their laws since at least they respected their land.
If we didn't steal their wealth with the NAFTA they wouldn't come, would they?
If you REALLY consider the truth the Zionists are everywhere in the world don't FALSELY limit them to israhell! They even have their parliament in Europe.
The map you posted here is deceptive. Britain was given the Mandate for Palestine by the League of Nations in 1922, after the conquest of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of World War I which began exactly 100 years ago.
The word "Palestine" was the Roman word for the land of Israel. The British were assigned the mandate because of the Balfour Declaration (1917) which assured British assistance in establishing a repatriation of foreign Jews to their people still living in the Holy Land:
The British partitioned the land between Arabs, who were given 90% of the Mandate (the area east of the Jordan River) and the Jews, who were given 10% of the land which comprised all of the area west of the Jordan River, including the Gaza strip.:
The rights of Jews to the land of Palestine/Israel was reaffirmed by the successor to the League of Nations, the United Nations, by vote on November 29, 1948, which resulted in Israel's immediate attack by Arab countries upon the withdrawal of the British on May 14, 1948. Israel's boundaries have been decided by its wars fought in defense since that day.
The Israelis have set their borders by giving large and strategic portions of land back to those from whom it was originally captured. The Sinai was returned to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria, both expanded Israel's size and strengthened its strategic position. The Land for Peace that the Palestinians say they want only works when both parties bargain in good faith. Israel demonstrated that good faith with Egypt, Syria and Jordan. It is logical to conclude that the Palestinians do not find peace with Israel because they want no peace with Israel.
Or maybe the land of theirs that the Israelis stole. Funny how that good faith thing kind of looks differently to the other side.
When you lose land from a war that you start and then refuse to negotiate in good faith, what right have you to expect anything in return. Interesting how there are thousands of Palestinians living in peace within Israel, voting, owning property, sending their children to school, worshiping as they please... you know, that Jewish abomination, freedom. The freest, most prosperous Muslims that are not oil or royal rich, live as minorities within Infidel countries, like Israel(the little Satan) and the United States(the great Satan.)
If the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed there would still be Palestinians. If Israel unilaterally disarmed, there would be no Israel and, given the current conduct of a resurgent Islam, no non-Muslims in what used to be Israel.
You kind of like to mix "them" (arabs) altogether don't you. The Muslims that are at peace with Israel are not the same as those that are in Hamas. And those that are in Hamas are not the same as those that are suffering the occupation and annexation of their lands. You seem to think when there are open conflicts the wars are won and over. The Palestinians have not ended the war so in effect the Israelis have won nothing from them. Only the remaining occupation seems to attract violence and hostilities. Such old thinking when it comes to what has developed. The huge chunk of land that is in question just rubs salt in the wounds and creates more impetus for attacks.
Israel does not occupy Gaza; it is ruled by Hamas by election of the Gazan people. No Jews live in Gaza and no Israeli military forces are stationed there. Gaza "occupies" itself.
Very good with your tit for tat analysis. Why don't you quote us some more Israeli propaganda. Taking statements out of context is a good tactic to try a taint the argument. So how about all the other land that Israel occupies? What is your analysis for that?
Not exactly. The Sinai was relinquished to Egypt after Egyptian Prime Minister Muhammad Anwar El Sadat came to Jerusalem seeking peace after Egypt had lost four wars against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. The peace treaty was signed in 1979, partially in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula, including the Alma oil field, which was discovered and developed by Israel and worth an estimated $100 billion dollars. (For his efforts, Sadat was awarded the Nobel Prize, removed from the Arab League and assassinated by Islamics in 1981.)
The Golan Heights, however, was formally annexed by Israel in 1981, after 14 years of military administration by Israel and repeated refusal by Syria to end its declared 'state of war' against Israel. The Golan is home to Jews and Syrian Druze, 4,000 of whom volunteer to serve in the Israeli Army. The Druze are loyal to the State of Israel and do not seek repatriation to Syria, with good reason.
Since the Syrian Civil War started in March 2011, more than 170,000 people have been killed in Syria. More than 56,000 of the dead were civilians. Refugees fleeing Syria to other countries now number over 2,500,000. Another 4,000,000 Syrians are displaced within Syria. This is a Syrian refugee camp in Jordan:
In your reference to Palestinians, within Israel proper there are 6,135,000 Jews and 1,694,000 Arabs. The Arabs have full rights of citizenship if they choose, or rights as residents if they don't want Israeli citizenship. Arabs are not required to do military service or national service as Jews are required to do, though some Arabs volunteer. Citizens and residents have free education, national health insurance, civil rights regarding housing, employment and freedom of religion. Arabs are not restricted in movement and can travel anywhere they want within Israel and Jordan. If you are in Israel and are hospitalized, you may share a room with an Arab or a Jew. Your doctor may be an Arab or a Jew. Your nurse may be an Arab or a Jew. The person scrubbing the floors may be an Arab or a Jew. If you visit a post office, grocery store, bank or shopping mall, you will stand in line with Arabs and Jews and the cashiers will be Arabs and Jews. Universities are open to all sectors as are all professions. These things don't make the news because they are not news; these are the normal ways of life in Israel.
Gaza, however, is a different story. You may read about the Egyptian occupation of Gaza here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation … p_by_Egypt
As part of the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, Egypt refused to take Gaza back and relinquished all control of the area. Israel disengaged entirely from Gaza in 2005 and gave control of the area to the Palestinian Authority. Previously, Yasser Arafat siphoned USD $1.3 billion in funds donated by foreign governments to aid the Palestinian people and the development of Gaza for his personal bank account. In 2004, his not-so-grieving-widow Suha Arafat put $40,000,000 into her personal bank account and now lives comfortably in Paris, France. She also receives more than $100,000 every year from the Palestinian Authority. In 2006, the people of Gaza voted in elections supervised by the United Nations and placed Hamas in charge of the Gaza Strip. And so it is to this day. Israel does not occupy Gaza; it is ruled by Hamas by election of the Gazan people. No Jews live in Gaza and no Israeli military forces are stationed there.
"...Previously, Yasser Arafat siphoned USD $1.3 billion in funds donated by foreign governments to aid the Palestinian people and the development of Gaza for his personal bank account. In 2004, his not-so-grieving-widow Suha Arafat put $40,000,000 into her personal bank account and now lives comfortably in Paris, France. She also receives more than $100,000 every year from the Palestinian Authority. ..."
What? you mean personal greed and political corruption isn't confined to America?
Sorry for the frivolity WriterFox, its a slow night. Not a lot of chuckleheads to banter with.
Although I agree that most of your response is, as the Brits say, "Spot on," I do think you might be exaggerating just a little when you imply the Arabs in Israel don't suffer "Second-Class status" restrictions in a lot of areas.
Although there are a lot of more strident writings available - ones that claim much more serious "Arab" citizen discrimination, this one is from your favorite Wikipedia source;
"The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."
"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."
"Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."
"Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service"."
"According to a 2003 University of Haifa study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report […] stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"
The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."
I am an Israel supporter, but given the facts of the Israeli/Palestinian/Arabs conflicts - and the faults of human nature all rational people must acknowledge - don't you think you are being a bit disingenuous?
No, I do not. I know far more about the situation than you. Until you live in Israel, it is you who are pretending to know more about the circumstances than you do, which is what the word disingenuous means.
Most of the studies you cite were conducted by Israelis for the explicit purpose of assuring civil rights to all of Israel's inhabitants.
Perhaps you should review America's history of civil rights. The U.S. did not have civil rights until the Civil Rights Law ending segregation was passed in 1964, almost 100 years since the U.S. Civil War ended and almost 200 years after American independence. Native American Indians did not receive U.S. citizenship and were restricted from traveling beyond their Reservations until 1924. Israel granted civil rights, citizenship, freedom of assembly and protest, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of movement to all residents in 1948, when it declared independence.
In the U.S., James Meredith became the first black student to enroll at the University of Mississippi in 1962. He was escorted to his first class by 5,000 federal troops to contain the violence and riots. In 1978, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that universities ARE allowed to discriminate on the basis of race for college admission (Regents of the University of California v. Bakke) and the ruling was again upheld in 1992 in the case of University of Michigan Law School admissions. In Israel, Arabs and other minorities were allowed equal university admission immediately upon statehood, without incident.
In nursery school (free from the age of three years), elementary, junior and senior high, parents decide where to send their children. They may send their children to schools in their neighborhood or to schools in another neighborhood or city, including boarding schools. The state doesn't dictate where a child has to go to school. Parents may also choose to send students to private religious schools, and all expenses are paid for by the government including transportation. This freedom of education is greater than it is in America. In the U.S., discrimination in education was fought with court-ordered busing – which did not end until the late 1990s. Israel prefers to allow parents to choose and does not force integration.
At the time of Israel's founding, there was only one Arab high school in the entire country. It took time and money to build schools where they never existed under the British Mandate or the Ottoman rule. Today, over 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. According to the Israel Democracy Institute, "between 1961 and 2007, the average numbers of years of schooling [of Israeli Arabs] rose from 1.2 to 11.3, which signifies a more than nine-fold increase." Part of this increase is due to the education of girls, which was previously not valued in Arab culture.
Women were not allowed to vote in the U.S. until 1920. (Israel's fourth Prime Minister was a woman. Israel was the third country in the world to be led by a female head of government.) Blacks were restricted from voting by the 'Poll Tax', which was not abolished until 1964, and literacy tests. The U.S. Voting Rights Act was not passed until 1965. (Over objections from the NAACP and the ACLU, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned many of the provisions of this Act in 2013.) In Israel, all citizens were given the right to vote immediately upon statehood.
The first black U.S. congressman was elected in 1870, almost 100 years since America was established. In Israel, Arabs have served in the Knesset since the first Knesset members were elected in 1949.
In the U.S. 40% of the prison population is African American:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics … ican_males
In the U.S. one in three black males will go to prison in their lifetime:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/0 … 45144.html
Until 1935, American Indian people could be fined and sent to prison for practicing their traditional religious beliefs. Native Americans were not given freedom of religion until 1978 with the passage of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act. Israel has granted freedom of religion to all since its inception.
A recent Harvard study found that more than 77% of Israeli Arabs prefer to be governed by Israel instead of the Palestinian Authority and they have more freedoms than they would have living in any of the 22 Arab countries under dictatorships and/or Islamic law:
http://www.meforum.org/702/the-hell-of- … e-paradise
Their life expectancy is higher than the average life expectancy in America and their infant mortality rate is lower than the rate in America.
The U.S. State Department issues reports on human rights, investigating every country except its own. The U.S. is not the world's beacon of civil rights that you might presume. In America, Jews were not allowed to hold public office in many states until the mid 1800s (in New Hampshire until 1877.) "In the first half of the 20th century, Jews were discriminated against in employment, access to residential and resort areas, membership in clubs and organizations, and in tightened quotas on Jewish enrollment and teaching positions in colleges and universities." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of … ted_States
Israel has a far more advanced perception and expedient implementation of civil rights as compared to the history of America and it provides a higher quality of life and opportunity for its minorities.
I must say that was a good challenge! But the Arabs have gotten everything imaginable under Israeli rule except their land back. A lot of fluff with no substance.
The Arabs live on their land. No one is asking them to leave. Come and see for yourself:
Then you can write a Hub about it. Have you ever thought about writing a Hub?
Well you certainly have established a rudeness that begs for retaliation but I won't fall into that trap as that seems to be your anger overcoming your common sense. I don't wish to go to Israel/Palestine or any other middle east country as Americans are unwelcome and take their lives in their hands by doing so. I also don't want my money going there either.
The reason why Israel won't give any land back is that it would pose a threat to their dominance in the region. Okay then dominate and quit whining about it. You stole something and won't give it back. Accept the consequences.
Ha! An El Air vacation package link... that was a good one.
Well done WriterFox. Although the US history lesson wasn't really pertinent to the question, (there wasn't an original comparison inferred), it did provide a good canvas for your picture of Arab Israeli's citizenship status relative to Jewish Israelis.
If you will allow me to sputter and mutter for a moment or two, I will freely admit that I have never been to Israel, have no first-hand knowledge of the topic I was addressing, (only recollections of readings) - and then bow to the apparent authority of your response.
My gut tells me the every-day reality of such equality must be terribly strained between Jews and Arabs due to the tensions between Israelis and non-Israeli Arabs. But that is nothing more than a thought and has no other validation.
My apologies for the "disingenuous" barb - it was unwarranted.
ps. I am hopeful I can return to this point when I am more well informed - so stay tuned.
We can see how the Palestinians use their children as human shields.
I would have posted the video of a Palestinian child blowing themselves up at a border crossing but I am sure you would have me banned again Izzy,
Why are you using this photo from Bahrain in 2009, as if it is relevant to the attacks from Gaza in 2014? This photo was staged in Bahrain, not in Israel. The uniform is not the uniform of the Israel Defense Forces and the weapon (an AK-47 rifle) is not used by Israelis. Here is the photo as it was taken:
The photo was debunked in 2012 when it originally went viral on Twitter and Facebook:
http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2012/02/03/ … ven-false/
Are you just ignorant of these facts or are you purposely trying to mislead?
My compliments on debunking those images. Ideological and emotional defenses are seldom factually driven. And too many times purposefully deceitful.
But... (hopefully you have seen my other responses on this thread to help you understand my position on this issue), you need to look a little deeper than wikipedia for a better understanding of the League of Nations and the Balfour agreement details. The politics and manipulation, and motives behind both render them almost useless as forms of validation for Israel's right to statehood.
The real world validation that Israel exists and is not going away is the important point. The real world fact that the Palestinian, (and other Arab entities), method of fighting that fact has failed - for more than 50 years, is the important point.
Any other discussion points are just fodder for conversation - not validation.
This is the reality of what ih happening in Gaza.
Wake up people. This is GENOCIDE!
Where did you get that from? Looks to me like Iraq when Sadd gassed all the Kurds.
I find it quite frightening that when the Jews defend themselves they are committing genocide but when the Muslims in Syria kill each other (170000 since the start) nobody says a word. Especially not a word from the Muslims, no condemnation of the Muslim brothers killing women and children, not a word.
This is a photo of the Syrian use of chemical weapons on its own people on August 24, 2013. Even the Arab press reports this:
Why do you post lies saying that this photo is from Gaza in 2014?
The president [?] of Israel recently said , "If Israel were to lay down it's weapons , it would be over-run by it's enemies , and yet if the enemies were to lay down their weapons there would be peace forever "-- I am para- phrasing this ! But ,simply put , that is the story of the middle east , since Israel's inception there after WWII . The desert sands have down nothing but breed new enemies against the Jewish world .Radicals of Muslim or Islamic origins have constantly attacked Israel , learn your history ! What would you do , perhaps start another holocaust . Israel isn't the lunatic here , they are on a constant treadmill of defending themselves !
No, no, no. The "desert sands" do not breed terrorists. Watching your mother/ father/ sister/ brother/ daughter/ son get torn apart by an Israeli artillery shell is what breeds future terrorists. That's why the Israeli action is so counter productive in the long run.
Also consider this. Israel's attempts to limit civilian injuries are evident in the tiny number of injuries compared to if Israel wanted to cause them. If the military powers were reversed, Israel's dead and wounded would not mirror what we now see in Palestine. Israel would have been wiped off the map in a few days.
So Israel , after taking rockets fired at their civilian people day after day after day for years is supposed to what , turn the other cheek ? Right , there is only one answer to radicalism against civilians . Turn the tide against the perpetrators .As to ," War isn't the answer " please . If it were your neighborhood ? Your children ? You would feel vastly different !
Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State.It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected."
The idea of war is so uncomfortable for the weak willed that they would rather capitulate to an enemy that wants them exterminated then to fight. A forceful war is far more humane than a bloody peace.
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