The topic of Israeli and Palestinian relations comes up often. Be it when bombs and shelling kick off in the disputed territories, or be it when either side steps up a campaign for recognition. We have all over the years got used to the Israel and Palestinian Issue being a hot topic of debate. In your opinion what is the solution in this ongoing war of territory, identity and violence in the Israeli and Palestinian nations.
There is nothing happening over there that cannot be solved by all the Western powers getting the hell out. Just leave. If someone comes out of the Middle East in an act of terrorism, all the Western Countries walk into the offending country, arrest the perpetrator and his friends and then.... Leave again. Eventually they'll get the message that they don't need to hate the entire world any more and eventually the Palestine/Israeli issue will be solved, one way or another. I have no patience for thinking up complicated solutions to conflicts that continue to exist only because the leaders of the organizations involved insist on acting like spoiled children.
You can blame western countries. I don't think it is the western countries that are causing the conflicts. The issue is of two nations, two religions, two peoples struggling for survival in a war that has raged on for 65 years. Blaming the west is very common but I personally do not believe it is the West that is to blame completely. The matter is more one of two sides both conditioned long term to hate and challenge one another daily. The loss of life and the spilling of blood is too often to blame the west. And blaming the west is no solution. Who is acting like children? Is it right that a son of Palestine has to take his own life to demonstrate against expanding Israeli settlements. I think not. I personally would like to see a lasting solution to the Israeli and Palestinian Question. That is why I asked this question. More name calling and more blaming America and the West is not the solution.
Support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. Boycott Israeli goods, divest from Israeli companies and cut off cultural and academic ties. Ordinary people around the world will bring change, not governments or international political organisations. This will eventually end the illegal and brutal military occupation of Palestinian land.
No. I'm afraid it won't. It's not about illegal vs legal anymore, if it ever was. Israel wants Jewish domination of the region and the Palestinians want Islamic domination of the region. As long as both sides are more concerned with WHO makes the rules rather than WHAT those rules are, there will never be peace.
The Palestinians are just as bad. The way you get peace is learning to live together. There is no other way in history that has been successful besides the complete eradication of one side or the other.
As long as Hamas has it spelled out in their charter that they will accept nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel, the Palestinians can hardly claim the moral high ground. As long as Israel refuses to entertain the possibility of a secular government and immigration reform, they can't call themselves benevolent rulers either.
The fighting will continue. If everyone else just leaves them to solve their own problems, at least no one will be making it worse.
The Palestinians don't want Islamic domination, only certain factions. There are over 9 million Palestinians in the Middle-East. Their struggle has always been about land, their land. It is grossly unfair to say that the Palestinians are just as bad, it is hugely one-sided, a heavily militarised state is now conducting most of the killings and oppressing an entire population. I don't support Hamas or their actions but they were supported by the Israelis against Fatah so Tel Aviv created it's own Frakenstein and besides Hamas were willing to open negotiations after their election win in 2006. Israel responded by an illegal blockade of the Gazan citizens.
Every time a group that is FOR a Palestinian state starts to talk like death for every Israeli maybe isn't a goal or that Sharia law maybe shouldn't be calling the shots, they are shoved aside and a new leadership emerges. Arafat was the last leader who all the Palestinian factions respected and even he was a nut-job extremist. Hamas is the strongest and most effective Palestinian supporter. They want Israel destroyed and every Israeli killed, and claim Shari law as the ultimate authority.
Hamas was willing to reopen negotiations, but they have a habit of walking out of negotiations if they don't get their way, so the offer to "negotiate" is more a political tool than a plea for resolution.
I'm not saying that Israel are nice guys, but BOTH sides need to figure out a compromise. BOTH sides. This is not a situation where all we have to do is get Israel to play nice and we get pink bunnies and unicorns afterwards. Hamas has to change their charter so that it doesn't call for the death of all Jews in Palestine and the destruction of the Jewish state. THAT will indicate that they are willing to talk. If they aren't willing to come that far, anything else they do is pretty pointless.
It all seems so senseless, particularly because the politically correct perspective foisted upon the world is a tapestry of lies. For anyone interested in learning the truth (with documented references) about the origin, motivations and place in the bigger picture of this conflict, here is an excellent resource: http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Isla … =dave+hunt For those happily buying the propaganda fed by the UN and media, carry on.
Mmm looks to me like a book based upon right wing hysterics.
Its a well known fact that the ultimate goal of Islam is to bring the World under the authority of Islam. How is this different from the goal of evangelical Christianity to bring the World under the authority of its brand of Christianity? The bible has its prophesies, so does the Quran. Evangelical Christianity also would seek to influence politics and the law. What would a Christian theocracy do with homosexuals, those that " live in unmarried sin", topless bathing at the local beach, or consumption of "hard liquor"?
Islam is fractured into two main schisms that seem more bent upon killing each other than world domination anyway. The fundamentalists are actually a tiny minority, the World has nothing fear from 99% of Muslims.
From what I remember of school history lessons, Israel declared itself a state by land grabbing and boycotting palestinian Labour, some might call this ethnic cleansing.
I may be wrong but this book probably claims much of its support from an evangelical interpretation Revelation, and we are very aware of the hysterics surrounding that book. Lets not forget that John's inclusion of Babylonian astrology should set alarm bells ringing about its validity.
You represent perfectly those who have only been exposed to one side of the story. One with a fabricated origin and carefully crafted development. I understand, because finding the truth in this situation requires much research and because it is not politically expedient, you may have to overcome resistance to uncover it. This book (http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Isla … =dave+hunt), does that for you, including the documentation so you can prove it for yourself. It is much easier to go with the flow and believe the lies served up on a platter for your consumption. As predicted, and as has been the case throughout history, most of the world will follow the lie.
If the truth of this matter is of interest to you, regardless of what that turns out to be, try reading this book with an open mind, accepting only what can be supported by the author's documentation or simple research,...then see where that leads you. Otherwise:
I might be more inclined to read it if it didn't attempt to support its position with reference to evangelical Christian interpretation of the bible. Had the book simply considered the issue with reference to history only it wouldn't put off a whole reader demographic, and potentially the central arguments might be someway different too.
You talk of reading a book with a open mind, but would you do the same concerning a book on evolution, or a book that exposes the lie of the Christian hell and an arch fiend known as Satan?
Although it absolutely makes the case historically, you are also correct regarding the perspective from which this book is written, so it's demographic is that audience along with anyone who is open to the subject, without already having preconceived conclusions. People wanting to know how these events will unfold, why they are happening as they are, and how it fits into prophecy, will find many of the answers they are looking for in that book, and can come to an understanding about the "big picture", if you will. Very interesting and well supported stuff.
Others it seems, perhaps such as yourself, have established views they probably feel they have reached objectively and are quite unlikely to reconsider. I completely understand, having a life that affords precious little time for extracurricular pursuits. I'll not be spending what little time I can carve out rehashing data to recheck for the umpteenth time conclusions I have drawn based on previous research and careful consideration. Not doing so may be construed, or at least alleged as being, "close minded."
It seems these days we are to always study but never learn, for to reach a conclusion and maintain it unless compelling new data is unearthed, is to be "close minded." It is easier to be swayed by every wind of doctrine, than make a stand, unless perhaps it is a PC stand that buys you support of the masses. If you have reached a comfortable conclusion you feel is beyond reproach, I would not expect you to waste your time reading the book I recommended.
" If Islam and the nations siding with her should accomplish their goal of destroying Israel, then mankind [from a biblical perspective] is eternally lost....”
That's the whole point, isn't it.... "from a Biblical perspective" You're not worried about Islam's domination of the world. You're worried about losing the battle for the souls of mankind. So what? In a battle between Islam and Christianity or Judaism, I really don't care who wins, we will all lose. I don't want either of them imposing their version of morality on me or mine. Religion has had it's chance (in many incarnations) to rule the world and those in their divine positions of authority made a mess of it. I got no problem with a belief in God or even organized religion, as long as it stays out of my day-to-day affairs and out of my personal life.... and out of the legislative process of my government. You make this a holy war and force people to chose up sides, and that's the direction you're headed. I will fight that with the last breath in my body.
Christianity is no better than Islam when given power over people's lives. They persecute others, call for the segregation or imprisonment or even death of those that don't believe the way they do and force everyone to tacitly accept that which they can't convince them to embrace.
It's not about being politically incorrect or being indoctrinated. The history that EVERYONE accepts as true shows that no organized religion can be trusted with the authority we normally give our secular governments. Even our secular governments can barely be tolerated with that power. No. I will never accept a faith-based government. If Islam has it's way, that is what the whole world would be like, but if... say.. the Catholic church or a Christian sect got what THEY want, it wouldn't be any better. The only way we as a species win is if neither side wins.
And yes... I have read that book. It is nothing but a collection of inexpertly supported prophetic myths. The problem with prophecy is that it can mean whatever we want it to mean before the fact and it is "oh so obvious" after the fact. It is useless as a predictive model, because it is never clear, and never detailed enough that four people reading it will get the same idea. Prophecy changes with the reader. It doesn't help us to see what's coming.
Where the book speaks truth is in the persecution of the Jewish people, but it's not a grand conspiracy. It's an historic persecution of different people and different religions from the point of view of Christians. It's just that there have been so many more Jews than any other non-Christian demographic until the birth of Islam that the incidents of persecution are much higher, and because they have always had a tendency towards financial miserliness and on a level playing field ended up with more money, it spawned the conspiracy theory that they were out to take over the world, which still exists today. The difference is where the Jews rarely fought back against their persecutors, Islam emulated the Christianity of the time and decided it would be better if the whole world was Islamic and tried to make it that way. They are still trying.
The rest of the book... to put it as politely as I can.... is bollocks.
Israel was created, like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, The UAE, Yemen, etc.. out of the former colonial holdings of the British and the French in the Middle East, Persian Gulf and Eastern Mediterranean. During WWII the Muslim leaders in what would eventually become Israel raised multiple divisions of troops for the Nazis. Palestine is as much an invention as Israel. Ironically, the Muslims, Palestinian and other wise, of Israel have more economic and political rights than any Muslims in any Muslim country in the world - including Turkey.
Let's do a little mind work first. Muslims in Israel are among the wealthiest, non-ruling class, Muslims in the Middle East. They are able to vote, own property, have equality before the law and religious freedom. The same for Christians and atheists. Now let's think about what is happening in the Palestinian territories. Christians are routinely brutalized, property vandalize, churches desecrated. What Jew lives or prospers safely in Palestinian areas? What homosexual or atheist serves in the military, police or other public office?
Now let's try a little mental exercise. If the Palestinians were completely disarmed and the Israelis left armed, what would happen? If the Palestinians were left armed and the Israelis completely disarmed, what would happen? Would the Jews of the Middle East swoop in to push all the Palestinians into the Mediterranean? Would the Muslims of the Middle East swoop in to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of all non-Muslims in Israel and Lebanon(a beneficiary of the distracted radicals)? Would warring factions in Syria suddenly have a larger mission?
How long have the GOVERNMENTS of Muslim Countries in the Middle East been campaigning for an end to Israeli, publicly and covertly? When Israel makes concessions to the Palestinians it is always for land - the measurable and tangible - in exchange for Peace - the elusive, ephemeral and intangible. Palestinian leaders have grown wealthy on the conflict, what incentive is there for it to end?
Israel is in no position to make concessions on land. It's not theirs to concede. The West Bank and East Jerusalem belong to the Palestinians. That's the law.
It's up to the Palestinians to offer concessions. In fact the Palestinians could demand their land back to the 1948 borders if they wanted as even the Israelis have called the 1967 borders an Armistice Line.
But the Palestinians only ask for 22% of their old lands. The Israelis won't even give them that back.
Your comment about Muslim countries is too simplistic. Israel helped arm Iran against Iraq in the 1980's war, Syria fought with the USA in the 1990's and right now the Saudis are working alongside the Israelis to combat Iran. Of course Egypt has cooperated with Israel for over 30 years in oppressing the Palestinians, especially in Gaza in recent years and NATO member Turkey still remains an ally of Tel Aviv even after the Mavi Marmara massacre.
There was no Palestine in 1948 and no Palestinians. The 1948 borders, as well as the 1967 borders were Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian. If the Palestinians want to live in Syria, Egypt and Jordan with their laws and governments.
That's a lie. Palestine existed. It is documented in historical records and public announcements.
Just cut the apron strings to both. That includes "selling" them weapons. Without the money flow, things could change much more quickly than one might expect.
Give both nations their sovereignty and then occupy them with UN troops who police both of them.
Give both nations their sovereignty and then take away their sovereignty by occupying them with UN troops who police both of them. Hmmm. Makes perfect sense to me but there must be a better way.
Xenolit and Quillgrapher.... Your suggestion sounds perfect. Give both Israel and Palestine sovereignty and recognition. That might work. Bringing in the UN to police the issue well I think that will be another ignition point. On both sides of this war there are voices that despise the UN with a passion. .Thus far Israel has some recognition at the UN but Palestine has none. The United Nations refusal to recognize Palestine as a sovereign state is said on both sides to be policy by UN that has kept this battle alive. Perhaps adjusting the make up of the UN to allow China and India as members may lead to a new perception of the UN and change in UN policy towards Palestine.
Give each side exactly 3 short range, nuclear tipped, missles. Sit back and wait.
If they turn the area into glass we haven't lost much (although it might be a little tough on their neighbors).
If they grow up and learn to live peaceably with each other, as the other superpowers have done, we will have two new adult nations instead of quarreling children.
Here Here Wilderness. That is the voice of wisdom. If both sides matured and embraced peace with or without the UN and with or without recognition there would be peace. The current mode of conduct on both sides is like aggressive teenage brothers are war beating the hell out of each other daily. Peace. Peace. Peace. But they will not listen.
When my little grandkids, 8 and 9, get to fighting (pretty much whenever I see them ) I've gotten to the point I just instruct them to go into the next room where it won't bother me and beat each other to a pulp. Bloody a nose, break an arm, rip an ear off - just leave me out of it! It always seems to stop the fight dead - without an adult to "moderate" (and pay attention to them) they aren't interested any more. If the boy knows that his sister can knock him clear across the room and I won't do a thing about it he won't provoke her and vice-versa.
Same with those two - they've had a "moderator" for decades now and know that the rest of the world won't let it go too far. Well, take that away. Make it clear that they are free to destroy each other without intervention. My bet is on both of them growing up and learning to live together in relative peace.
Wilderness not sure I'm keen on the nuclear weapons bit. But at times through this conflict if either side had gotten hold of Nuclear weapons they probably would have used it by now.... Which would have made the territories of Israel and all of Gaza and the West Bank un inhabitable for many years. Not to mention the nuclear fallout that would have hit Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and other countries in the area.
Well, nukes might be just a little over the top. The point is to simply let them handle their affairs as they see fit and if that means they destroy each other, OK. I'm tired of decades of settling their squabbles - either grow up or go away.
But and alas I don't think they are going away. Israel wants to build more settlements in the disputed territories. Palestine is angry that it has no recognition of its name or nation.
Instead of being referred to as Palestine the non names of the territories is West Bank and Gaza. What if the area was saturated with food and water instead of arms and messages of violence.
And then there is the forgotten Christians of the area who seem to have been pushed right off the agenda by the Israeli and Palestinians sides.
I guess you would be serene if one day France invades the US. You would accept it or would you fight it?
The Israel and Palestine were both victims of their own selfishness.. If they love their country, they must love who are in their country, the woman who are defenseless, the sick, the old, and the children. Look at the trauma of what they are doing.. If you belong to God, the fruit will be good things and goodness. No one will win, If they try to even the score, but LOVE and FORGIVENESS puts them above the enemies. God bless everyone!
Cynthiaalburo0322. I like you answer with passion. There has to be love and understanding on both sides of this war. The bible, the Quran, and the old testament are sister faiths. Each scripture of holy decent preaches love and goodwill to these nations. Each scripture reminds Israel and Palestine that they are brothers. Yet in reality the hate on both sides makes minds boggle and hearts weak.
Over-ruling the UN and proclaiming peace and goodwill to one another based on gods message of love and peace would be a great solution. But no matter how much you and I and many other people believe in Peace as a mutual solution I do not think that is is going to happen in the Middle East any time soon. But yes I say to your answer Cynthiaalburo0322 peace in gods name.
Just nuke the entire Middle East. All it takes is a few bombs, and most of the world's troubles will be over.
Then send a few more to the Bible Belt of the U.S., so that world peace might finally be a reality.
To inflict an Israeli embargo. After all we do it with the rest of the world! Why not them? I am tired of Israel's velleity of peace. It is to its advantage to keep warmongering. It needs the great Israel. It needs to spread geographically.
It wont happen. Too many southern baptists who think Israel is as pure as the driven snow,,,,,and they are longing for a conflict in the Middle East as that will herald a rapture, Great Tribulation, and the end of the World.
That's exactly what Noam Chomsky said maxomam "Israel chooses expansion over security"
Their claims to demand security before peace are a lie. Every time an illegal squatter settles on the West Bank the Israelis breach the 4th Geneva Convention and steal more property and land.
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