The facts about islam and its hatred for Israel.
Okay all you great historians and know it alls... who is this sitting with ole Adolf? And all you muslims can take a guess also... he is one of your great heros after all.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/israeli … ral-video/
Long live Israel... The vote in the United Nations will be coming up. I hope America stands up and screams at that joke of a president we have, to back Israel and tell the UN to screw itself.
As long as Islam is allowed to exist... Israel and the non-Muslim world will be a target.
You can find the answer for the above question here...
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html
The Left and Islam have long been silent partners in the slaughter of Jews. The NAZIs, Islam and George Soros... what a bunch... it is like all the greatest mass murderers crowded into one lovable group... the Leant Left.
If allowed the world will screw Israel... the UN must be stopped and the so called palistinians ned to be told to piss off and find a new place to live.You believe that a picture of Hitler with a Muslim provides evidence that the political left are bedfellows with Islam. Well, there is no way that Hitler and the Nazis can be described as being "Lefties." They were far-right by anyone's definition.
Islam and Hitler were indeed silent partners. That is a historic fact... and Hitler was a leftist, (Socialist), bro.
Read Mises, read Mein kampf, Hitler was a Socialist... regardless of the Frankfurt re-write of history and the leftist BS.
The European Left and Islam have been bound by the tie of anti-Semitism for centuries.
http://mises.org/daily/1937
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=507But Islam isn't of the left!
They have far more in common with the American right wing than the left.
And it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, Hitler was of the far right, not a lefty, not a socialist and the European left is not anti Semitic.
You would do well to seek out slightly less right wing sources, ones to view things with an open mind rather than a desire to fit the facts to their biased outlook.There's photo's of Hitler and England's Prime Minister Chamberlain. Who knows what was going on behind closed doors. Does TMMason lay awake at night coming up with these insane conclusions or does it come to himin visions?
Actually I am just reminding people of the reasons why Islam and the left cannot be trusted in this time where they seek to create another terrorist state.... this time inside the borders of Israel.
Screw the UN, Islam, and the EU. and American Left... long live israel.So a meeting of two right wingers is evidence of why the left can't be trusted!
Dear dear!
I suspect that there are photographs of Hitler with most of the worlds prominent figures!
He was, amongst other things, a bit of a megalomaniac.Again... how many of those leaders went around creating Islamic SS units throughout the Balkans and Middle East?
How many?...
And SNeville Chamberlains people are the reason Hitler was allowed to grow as he did... so all you englishman should be ashamed to speak of Hitler and the NAZIs.I should think very few went around creating Islamic SS units. After all, the Catholics wouldn't have set up SS units would they?
And yet another example of why we should fear the right.Catholics are fairly liberal.
Esp. the church.I had both Jewish and catholic grandparents ( I have rather a complex, and somewhat troubled heritage) I found neither group liberal.
Your grand-parents are not the catholics of today.
No you're right, nether my Jewish grandparents, or catholic grandparents (both paternal and maternal grandparents now deceased) are the Jews or Catholics of today. However, in both groups, as with any religion, there are still some very fixed, rigid thinkers.
Ah but where would Hitler have been wothout all that American money that bankrolled his rise to power in the thirties?
And then there is Prescott Bush. Didn't he get arrested for providing banking and investment services to German capitalists during the war?Yes we all know the American Leftist/Democrat/Socialists loved Hitler. It was only after he betrayed their "Uncle Joe" Stalin that they turned on him.
What's your point though? I am not a Catholic... and could care less about that whore of a church.
And I have heard alot of things about ole Bush... see LMC... but even Wiki seems to dismiss the NAZI connection as BS.
So I am not sure about that one.
Oh how wrong you are John. Left is socialistic. It is nothing but communism. Hitler was national socialist. Soviet were Bolshevist socialists. Both fight about supremacy. Today formal soviet today Russian communists are friend with Muslim terrorists. How things are changing. They have common with terrorist only common goal. Nothing else.
Left is socialist isn't in dispute! However socialism and communism are two separate beasts.
Hitler called himself a national socialist but his policies and actions were very much of the right. Never were workers in control of production, never was internationalism a creed of the Nazi party.
National Socialist was a misnomer, just as the German Democratic Republic was neither democratic nor a republic!
Hitler and the soviets were state capitalists plain and simple, far closer to the American right.No they were not... his actions were very much of the Left.
The lie won't fly anymore john.
Hitler was a Socialist... doesn't matter how many times you all deny it... facts are facts.
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.htmlThen let's have some facts instead of prejudice and blinkered vision.
I tell you what, if Hitler was a socialist then I'm a right wing conservative.I must be because I say so. Such a sudden transformation requires no change in my beliefs, after all, every conservative must want worker control and a government that serves the people, rather than a government that controls the people.
You really can't approach the world with such blinkered vision, Hitler was no more a socialist than he was a Jew!I have already... in many threads... over and over... and you are still in denial.
It is the way of your kind... denial is not just a river you know?
Like the myth of Hitler destroying Unions... huh! what a laugh.
Yes, - Hitler destroyed independent labor unions — by nominally turning them into government unions! Without collective bargaining of course. And, at least ideologically, the idea of creating the DAF (German Labor Front) was to give labor a “seat at the table,” as it were, inside the government.
All the leftist' lies are a crumbling, Jonny boy.
And here are the Leftist Socialist scum who have literally created the BS histories, and immorral unatural shit-mess of a Society we live in in this day.
These are the criminals, who with the American leftist/Progressive scum, have destroyed our nation through under-mining all our Social Institutions, and through the force of Govt and Left-wing/Progressive politicians have forced their agenda down the throats of Americans for the last 80 years. These are the scum who have perverted our childrens minds and morals, who have destroyed this nations strength in faith.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91 … kfurt.html
http://www.catholicinsight.com/online/f … _882.shtml
And all American should watch the poison of ideologies these scum spew even today into society through the schools and the Institutions of higher learning, indoctrinating all they can into their Marxist Secualr Humanist Atheistic BS.Well, you said it, scum indeed. The first site gets a "not to be trusted" warning and the second is a catholic site, the lack of trust in that is implicit!
You know you can find as many sites as you like that twist the truth, but they can't change the truth.
I do think it is your way to deny the truth, there was nothing socialist about anything that Hitler did, and you constantly denying that fact does not change it one iota.Enjoy your denial... how is the life along the river?
Leave it to you to deny the existence of the frankfurt School...lol you are funny.
http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search … urt+SchoolI didn't deny the existence of the Frankfurt School, I said the site was flagged up as having a poor reputation and not to be trusted.
Come on man, accept that Hitler was of the right, we're all bigger than that and can accept that does not make everybody on the right a Nazi.Hitler was a Socialist John... simple.
Look at what the Left and Right in politics consist of at present. Consider this description by Edward Feser of someone who would have been an ideal Presidential candidate for the modern-day U.S. Democratic party:
"He had been something of a bohemian in his youth, and always regarded young people and their idealism as the key to progress and the overcoming of outmoded prejudices. And he was widely admired by the young people of his country, many of whom belonged to organizations devoted to practicing and propagating his teachings. He had a lifelong passion for music, art, and architecture, and was even something of a painter. He rejected what he regarded as petty bourgeois moral hang-ups, and he and his girlfriend "lived together" for years. He counted a number of homosexuals as friends and collaborators, and took the view that a man's personal morals were none of his business; some scholars of his life believe that he himself may have been homosexual or bisexual. He was ahead of his time where a number of contemporary progressive causes are concerned: he disliked smoking, regarding it as a serious danger to public health, and took steps to combat it; he was a vegetarian and animal lover; he enacted tough gun control laws; and he advocated euthanasia for the incurably ill.
He championed the rights of workers, regarded capitalist society as brutal and unjust, and sought a third way between communism and the free market. In this regard, he and his associates greatly admired the strong steps taken by President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal to take large-scale economic decision-making out of private hands and put it into those of government planning agencies. His aim was to institute a brand of socialism that avoided the inefficiencies that plagued the Soviet variety, and many former communists found his program highly congenial. He deplored the selfish individualism he took to be endemic to modern Western society, and wanted to replace it with an ethic of self-sacrifice: "As Christ proclaimed 'love one another'," he said, "so our call -- 'people's community,' 'public need before private greed,' 'communally-minded social consciousness' -- rings out.! This call will echo throughout the world!"
The reference to Christ notwithstanding, he was not personally a Christian, regarding the Catholicism he was baptized into as an irrational superstition. In fact he admired Islam more than Christianity, and he and his policies were highly respected by many of the Muslims of his day. He and his associates had a special distaste for the Catholic Church and, given a choice, preferred modern liberalized Protestantism, taking the view that the best form of Christianity would be one that forsook the traditional other-worldly focus on personal salvation and accommodated itself to the requirements of a program for social justice to be implemented by the state. They also considered the possibility that Christianity might eventually have to be abandoned altogether in favor of a return to paganism, a worldview many of them saw as more humane and truer to the heritage of their people. For he and his associates believed strongly that a people's ethnic and racial heritage was what mattered most. Some endorsed a kind of cultural relativism according to which what is true or false and right or wrong in some sense depends on one's ethnic worldview, and especially on what best promotes the well-being of one's ethnic group
There is surely no doubt that the man Feser described is in fact a mainstream Leftist by current standards. But who is the man concerned? It is a historically accurate description of Adolf Hitler.
Hitler was not only a socialist in his own day but he would even be a mainstream socialist in most ways today. Feser does not mention Hitler's antisemitism above, of course, but that too seems once again to have become mainstream among the Western-world Left in the early years of the 21st century.
Like I have said all along... Anti-Semitism is the tie that binds the American and European Left and Islam.
Further, as a good socialist does, Hitler justified everything he did in the name of "the people" (Das Volk). The Nazi State was, like the Soviet State, all-powerful, and the Nazi party, in good socialist fashion, instituted pervasive supervision of German industry. And of course Hitler and Stalin were initially allies. It was only the Nazi-Soviet pact that enabled Hitler's conquest of Western Europe. The fuel in the tanks of Hitler's Panzern as they stormed through France was Soviet fuel.
And a book that was very fashionable worldwide in the '60s was the 1958 book "The Affluent Society" by influential "liberal" Canadian economist J.K. Galbraith -- in which he fulminated about what he saw as our "Private affluence and public squalor". But Hitler preceded him. Hitler shared with the German Left of his day the slogan: "Gemeinnutz vor Eigennutz" (Common use before private use).
And we all know how evil Nazi eugenics were, don't we? How crazy were their efforts to build up the "master race" through selective breeding of SS men with the best of German women -- the "Lebensborn" project? Good Leftists recoil in horror from all that of course. But who were the great supporters of eugenics in Hitler's day? In the USA, the great eugenicists of the first half of the 20th century were the "Progressives". And who were the Progressives? Here is one summary of them:
"Originally, progressive reformers sought to regulate irresponsible corporate monopoly, safeguarding consumers and labor from the excesses of the profit motive. Furthermore, they desired to correct the evils and inequities created by rapid and uncontrolled urbanization. Progressivism ..... asserted that the social order could and must be improved..... Some historians, like Richard Hofstadter and George Mowry, have argued that the progressive movement attempted to return America to an older, more simple, agrarian lifestyle. For a few progressives, this certainly was true. But for most, a humanitarian doctrine of social progress motivated the reforming spirit"
Sound familiar? The Red/Green alliance of today is obviously not new. So Hitler's eugenics were yet another part of Hitler's LEFTISM! He got his eugenic theories from the Leftists of his day. He was simply being a good Leftist intellectual in subscribing to such theories.
The summary of Progressivism above is from De Corte (1978). Against all his own evidence, De Corte also claims that the Progressives were "conservative". More Leftist whitewash! See also Pickens (1968).
And are feminists conservatives John? Hardly. And feminists are hardly a new phenomenon either. In the person of Margaret Sanger and others, they were very active in the USA in first half of the 20th century, advocating (for instance) abortion. And Margaret Sanger was warmly praised by Hitler for her energetic championship of eugenics. And the American eugenicists were very racist. They shared Hitler's view that Jews were genetically inferior and opposed moves to allow into the USA Jews fleeing from Hitler. So if Hitler's eugenics and racial theories were loathsome, it should be acknowledged that his vigorous supporters in the matter at that time were Leftists and feminists, rather than conservatives.
Ah the truth is great isn't it John.
And add to that the myth of unions being destroyed, when in fact they were simply consolodated... and the Party's 25 Points... and the lies are crumbling.
Hitler was a Socialist... and a damn good one at that.
Hitler was way more Leftist than racist!
Hitler was in fact even more clearly a Leftist than he was a nationalist or a racist. Although in his speeches he undoubtedly appealed to the nationalism of the German people, Locke 2001, makes a strong case that Hitler was not in fact a very good nationalist in that he always emphasized that his primary loyalty was to what he called the Aryan race -- and Germany was only one part of that race. Locke then goes on to point out that Hitler was not even a very consistent racist in that the Dutch, the Danes etc. were clearly Aryan even by Hitler's own eccentric definition yet he attacked them whilst at the same time allying himself with the very non-Aryan Japanese.
And the Russians and the Poles, whom Hitler also attacked, are rather more frequently blonde and blue-eyed, Hitler's ideal, than the Germans themselves are!
So what DID Hitler believe in?
Locke suggests that Hitler's actions are best explained by saying that he simply had a love of war but offers no explanation of WHY Hitler would love war.
Hitler's extreme Leftism does explain this however. As Hitler shared with other Leftists a love of constant change and excitement --- and what could offer more of that than war, or, in the case of other Leftists, the civil war of "revolution"?
And how about a direct quote from Hitler himself?
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"
(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)
Clearly, the idea that Hitler was a Rightist is probably the most successful BIG LIE of the 20th Century. He was to the Right of the Communists but that is all. Nazism was nothing more nor less than a racist form of Leftism, rather extreme Leftism at that! and to label it as "Rightist" or anything else is to deny reality.
The word "Nazi" is a German abbreviation of the name of Hitler's political party -- the Nazionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. In English this translates to "The National Socialist German Worker's Party". So Hitler was a socialist and a champion of the workers -- or at least he identified himself as such and campaigned as such.
There is a great deal of further reading available that extends the points made here about the nature of Nazism and Fascism. There is, for instance, an interesting review by Prof. Antony Flew here of The Lost Literature of Socialism by historian George Watson. Excerpt:
Many of his findings are astonishing. Perhaps for readers today the most astonishing of all is that "In the European century that began in the 1840s, from Engels' article of 1849 down to the death of Hitler, everyone who advocated genocide called himself a socialist and no conservative, liberal, anarchist or independent did anything of the kind." (The term "genocide" in Watson's usage is not confined to the extermination only of races or of ethnic groups, but embraces also the liquidation of such other complete human categories as "enemies of the people" and "the Kulaks as a class.")
The book seems well worth reading but is not of course available online. An excellent earlier essay by Prof. Watson covering some of the same ground is however available here. He shows in it that even such revered figures in the history of socialism as G.B. Shaw and Beatrice Webb were vocally in favour of genocide.
We do however need to keep in mind that there is no such thing as PURE Leftism. Leftists are notoriously fractious, sectarian and multi-branched. And even the Fascist branch of Leftism was far from united. The modern-day Left always talk as if Italy's Mussolini and Hitler were two peas in a pod but that is far from the truth. Mussolini got pretty unprintable about Hitler at times and did NOT support Hitler's genocide against the Jews (Steinberg, 1990; Herzer, 1989). As it says here:
"Just as none of the victorious powers went to war with Germany to save the Jews neither did Mussolini go to war with them to exterminate the Jews. Indeed, once the Holocaust was under way he and his fascists refused to deport Jews to the Nazi death camps thus saving thousands of Jewish lives - far more than Oskar Schindler."
"Far more than Oskar Schindler"!. And as late as 1938, Mussolini even asked the Pope to excommunicate Hitler!. Leftists are very good at "fraternal" rivalry.
So unity is not of the Left in any of its forms. They only ever have SOME things in common -- such as claiming to represent "the worker" and seeking a State that controls as much of people's lives as it feasibly can.
Tom Wolfe's essay on American intellectuals also summarizes the origins of Fascism and Nazism rather well. Here is one excerpt from it:
"Fascism" was, in fact, a Marxist coinage. Marxists borrowed the name of Mussolini's Italian party, the Fascisti, and applied it to Hitler's Nazis, adroitly papering over the fact that the Nazis, like Marxism's standard-bearers, the Soviet Communists, were revolutionary socialists. In fact, "Nazi" was (most annoyingly) shorthand for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. European Marxists successfully put over the idea that Nazism was the brutal, decadent last gasp of "capitalism."
Other sources on the basic facts about Hitler that history tells us are Roberts (1938), Heiden (1939), Shirer (1964), Bullock (1964), Taylor (1963), Hagan (1966), Feuchtwanger (1995).
The above are however secondary sources and, as every historian will tell you, there is nothing like going back to the original -- which is why much original text is quoted above. For further reading in the original sources, the first stop is of course Mein Kampf. It seems cutomary to portray Mein Kampf as the ravings of a madman but it is far from that. It is the attempt of an intelligent mind to comprehend the world about it and makes its points in such a personal and passionate way that it might well persuade many people today but for a knowledge of where it led. The best collection of original Nazi documents on the web is however probably here. Perhaps deserving of particular mention among the documents available there is a widely circulated pamphlet by Goebbels here. One excerpt from it:
The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of pay, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day-though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform-but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the Fatherland
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1143131/postsAgain, there was nothing socialist about Hitler, doesn't matter how much you copy and paste, he wasn't a socialist.
As for being more leftist than racist, you deny the holocaust then?Here is what you said, He's not alone in using socialist ideas. If he used socialist ideas then wouldn't that make him a socialist? I'm sure your answer is no, but I respectfully disagree. It doesn't make Hitler any less a fascist just because he happened to be a socialist, they tend to go hand in hand.
So, adopting one idea makes you a socialist!
Crazy!!
And since when did fascism, that right wing ideology, go hand in hand with socialism? For pities sake, the fascists don't deny their position on the right, why should you?
There are some very silly people with some very silly ideas on these forums.Calling people names doesn't make you right, it just reinforces our opinions of the left.
Who did I call names? You don't know the difference between an opinion and name calling, just as you don't know the difference between socialism and fascism, between right and left!
Are you cagsils alterego? You didn't just call some people on this forum silly? Did I imagine that?
Yes, it is my opinion that some posters to these forums are very silly.
That's an opinion, not name calling.Was the yes an admission to being cagsils alterego? Its my opinion that you are calling people names. My opinion happens to be correct.
It is you who are in denial. Face it, Hitler was a right wing fascist, but we don't hold that against you because we realise that he was a mad man.
We don't need to use him to smear you and until very recently, the right didn't need to use him to smear the left either!
Tell me, why is the anti fascist league in the UK a socialist organisation, and why is the anti Nazi League in the UK a socialist organisation?
I can't wait to see how you'll twist that.Man have you not seen al the Leftists/Socialist/commies/NEA/Unionists in Wi and other places slinging around the Hitler BS, signs etc... the Left throws up hitler every chance they get.
All the time they throw him up... and then whine when it is pointed out that he was a SOCIALIST. Or if someone on the right paints a hitler stache on an obama sign... what a joke the Left is.
Where would you get I deny the holocaust, that is what your friends the Islams do john, not I.
And he belongs to you all.
You all are a riot.
@Hollie.
I do not know what you think you could flag or report?.. but point it out if it is that offensive, because I do not see it.
Your views of Israel show where you stand.Well if you claim that Hitler was more of a socialist than a racist . . .
Think about it.
And as I've said before, Islam is much closer to your way of thinking than mine, abhor homosexuality and abhor abortion for a couple.Of course they can, but being racist doesn't make you a socialist any more than it makes you a right winger.
And it does not negate hitlers being a Socialist as so many would like to use it to. Which was the point of the statement... context John... if you would actually read something you might get it.
But dismissing what doesn't agree with you is so much better.But racism isn't a creed of socialism, it isn't accepted by socialism.
Hitler's racism and nationalism were so far adrift of socialist ideals as not to be on the same planet.Well you should know that, the effort that you put into dismissing Hitler's lack of socialism.
It is you who dismiss evidence at every presentation... as I said, too much invested. I have produced economic theorists and historians and sources from contemporaries... and they mean nothing to you.
You know better.But I have produced contrary evidence which you have just ignored as it flies in the face of what you want to believe.
I thought this was interesting, maybe you will too. http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/20 … socialist/
One of the many I have previously posted... he ignores them all.
All the Leant Leftists do... it is quite funny actually.
They just do not seem to get that the lie is shattered, along with many of the Lefts other BS lies and ideas.No, I don't ignore them. I read them and laugh.
The only BS and lies come from those unable to see what socialism is and fascism isn't.
But still, you carry on believing, it matters not on the broader scale of things what a few Americans think.
Niether you nor the left will ever admit the truth that hitler was a Socialist, you all have too much invested in that lie.
But believe me... Americans see you all for what you are.
I am sure you believe that you are more knowlegable than Mises and all those many economic theorists and historians sourced by the author of the work above... but you are not.Well no, I won't admit as the truth something I know to be a blatant lie.
I don't claim to be more knowledgeable than Mises and all those others, but I do claim to be a lot more open minded and free of prejudice.
Do you honestly believe that I am like, that I admire Hitler, that I could knowingly propagate the hatred that he spewed upon this earth! No, no and a thousand times no. Why, because I have socialist ideals and Hitler didn't have any.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/ta … -a-lef.phpYou Socialist come in all different breeds John... I do not believe you are a hitlerite no... but that doesn't mean hitler was not a Socialist. Just cause his ideas are different then yours in certain aspects... all you marxians have forever been fueding and denouncing one another. Anotrher aspect of the Left and Socialism spoke to in the last work.
And yes Hitler was an exemplar Socialist in his day.There you go again! I'm not a Marxist either, but then as Hitler hated Marxism I suppose you'll use that as further proof of his socialism!
Hitler was a great patriot, just like the American right.
How did Hitler put the German people back to work?
Building concentration camps equipped with special showers and ovens.
John, dictatorship always starts with socialism. Look what Karl Marx said: democracy is road to socialism. What Vladimir said: Socialism is door to communism. All dictators pave the road of so called socialistic ideas. This is how they fool masses. John, you do not have to tell me anything I lived under Hitler and later socialistic communism in my former country and was educated by them. I have state board of Marxism-Leninism, Dialectic and Historic Materialism and Political Economy on postgraduate level. By the way I read Soviet communistic books in original Russian language.
You fall under that common spell, if a thing is called something then it must be that thing.
You simply cannot accept the truth John.
Sad sad sad.You wouldn't recognize or admit the truth if it bit you in the ass.
Fundamentalists of all nearly flavors have several things in common--intolerance, suppression of women, preoccupation with sexual purity, willingness to resort to violence against those whom they perceive to be enemies, censorship of literature and art, and so forth. They don't qualify as socialists, liberals or progressives.
"Islam and Hitler"
... I'm trying to figure out how a human can be a partner with an ideology...I refer to hitler specifically because he is being spoken of, as to the islams that sided with him, Amin the grand mufti was simply the face of the crowd in his day.
Islam still adores their NAZI partners and hitler's attempts to settle the "Jewish question". Egypt has a brand new NAZI party as we speak in its political forces.
Birds of a feather.
How you doing, Evan?
Excellent, TM... and here is some more important 'proof'...
Reagan WAS indeed a Russian communist..
Please, Grk.
Islam's role in WWII, thier founding of the Bosnian and mioddle eastern SS sqads, and their silent partnership with hitler to sieze and slaughter Jews, is well documented and cannot be denied.
I would have thought you would know that bit of history.?..
And for someone who claims Greek status, you sure are forgiving of the Devshirme... you know the Jannassarrie corp?... remember that lil tax upon the greek people by the Ottoman Empire and Islam? All those greek children stolen, perverted and destroyed... lil children, used up and spit out by that barbaric religion.
Probrably not.
It is sell-outs like this, whimpering apologizers like Obama, who will sell out Israel.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/illinoi … s-country/
There are similar pictures of Hitler with the Pope and the leaders of most other countries - but then we know the Pope was in bed with Hitler from the shameful historical record.
Then you say Hitler was not right wing
you need to start wearing the tinfoil hat before you get abducted I can assume from your pathetic rhetoric that you are just a paid politico propaganda pusher. If that's not the case - then you are merely stupid as fuck.
Israel must abide by the rule of law. The military occupation of Palestine land is illegal as are the settlements, the wall and the state terrorism against the Palestinians.
The decisions of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, and the Geneva Convention must be enforced against Israel. The Community of Nations state that Israel is breaking international law. Almost every country in the whole world at UN votes agrees that the occupation must end. Anyone who disagrees is supporting criminality.
No peace without justice, no justice without dialogue.Israel under Netanyahu has been screwing itself without any help from its friends.
Then inevitably it is ordinary Israelis who will suffer more for the illegal actions of its government. The draconian laws against the Nakba and the BDS Campaign are signs of the growing totalitarianism of the Israeli government domestically. Israeli citizens need to start questioning their government on the unjust treatment of the Palestinians. The decisions of international law must prevail.
Netanyahu is the best leader Israel can have. Hetanyahu stands for Israel, he voices the truth and he doesn't give a damn what the world can think. He stands for his people, and he does not lick rear ends of mass media. When Olmert happen to be in the lead for a short time, I was the first to say that his place is in jail. But Netanyahu is the real one for Israel!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAlJ6erL-HY
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44651801/ns … anscripts/
This is the real head of the country!
P.S. During his first term there was no suicide bombing in Israel, the same goes now. Arabs know better not to funk with himThat's right...children will get bombarded with illegal white phosphorous.
I think Netanyahu is a coward, and his bravado and indifference to world opinion might make some Israelis feel good (esp since criticism of Israel outside the US really is lopsidedly unfair) but it does nothing to advance the steps the country will have to make in order to be a relatively secure, Jewish-majority country.
I don't know if allowing the growth of settlements is part of an eventual negotiation gambit, or he's just too afraid to confront his coalition partners to stop them, but the more the settlements grow into Palestinian territory, the more difficult it will be to root them out, and it might very soon come to a point where the Palestinians stop fighting for their own country and just peacefully ask to be fully-enfranchised citizens of Israel. So many Jews will be living in their territory that they might have a point. What will happen then?
BTW that barenakedislam link is really frightening. I'm not talking about the post's images, but the site itself, which has a prominent button saying "Bring back the Crusades." It's basically an anti-Islam hate site.about the site- I really posted only for the sake of pictures and later gave a link to the original site. So, I apologize if I posted a link to a hatred site.
But at least the info regarding the topic was truthful.
I don't agree that Netanyahu is driven by a bravado. He is a bold politician, not a hypocrite and not an opportunist. Settlements are built not on illegal territory, but on a disputed territory, this is a big difference. Though I myself is not a supporter of settlement movement, but there's nothing illegal in it. There's no settlements being built in Gaza stripe. When in 2005 Israel moved out of Gaza, IDF forcibly evacuated all Jewish families from settlements, leaving behind pretty houses, green-houses and fields, for Arabs. What did Arabs do with all this ready to use civilization? They bulldozered everything.
Here, some facts about Gaza:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … ments.html
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ExodusFromGaza.htmlThe Arabs didn't bulldoze it, the IDF did!
And then the settlers just moved to the West Bank, so it was null an void anyway.
And I find it well, what's the word?
Supporting a foreign president over your own?
How many people do that, is what I'd like to know.
And how many members of OUR gvt do the same?gosh, you are not informed. And confused. IDF DID NOT bulldozer anything, all green houses, homes and fields were left in great shape. After Israel left Gaza, Arabs burnt green houses, demolished homes and synagogues. Look at the pictures.
Secondly, I am standing up for MY Prime Minister (Netanyahu is not a president, hehe, he is a Prime Minister) because I am an Israeli and proud of it. Do you call Mr. Obama MY President? Alas, unfortunately, technically he is as well, as I am also American.
I wish here, in America we had such a President as Netanyahu. He would stand for HIS people and wouldn't go world tour apologizing.Agreed on the destruction of the infrastructure in Gaza. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...
Sorry to completely disagree with you on Netanyahu (and Obama). Netanyahu is a coward; "preaching to the choir" doesn't require much courage at all. Doing the tough work of statesmanship is something he's clearly not up to the task for, and Israel will end up paying for that. You might also notice that the largest protests in the history of Israel have taken place recently, so the idea that he enjoys unrivaled support there is absurd, too. He's yet another right-wing politician who strikes populist tones to get the votes, but then gives everything to the rich. Israel is becoming another rich people's playground.
Obama has done nothing wrong and both supported Israel and tried to push the peace process forward. He never apologized in the way the right-wing spin machine is fabricating. He is more pro-Israel than Bush was, and his only "crime" is having a Muslim grandfather. People who making something of that should be ashamed of themselves, and Jews should remember that populism built on a mountain of disprovable lies has always ended up biting Jews in the butt in the end. Didn't you grow up in the Soviet Union? You should be more familiar with this pattern than anyone.You are right, I grew up in Soviet Union, so I know this side of life first hand as well. Basically, it was a welfare country. Soviet Union was tremendously rich, but its people all (except those in power, government shots) were welfare recipients, no less no more. There was no rich and poor there, all were equally poor. Government was in control in every aspect of life. Yes, we had free healthcare (read my hub about "free" healthcare in USSR!), free education (read my hub about growing in socialistic society!), almost free hosing (I didn't write about it yet, but imagine three generations living in the same 1 or 2 bedroom tiny apartment.). Doctors, teachers, engineers, line workers, cleaners, drivers were getting almost the same salary, which was rather an allowance. I don't say anything about choice of goods in the stores or about choices in life. The most funny part of it- we were happy!We didn't know else (Iron Curtain, you know.... Government in charge of our lives)
Because of my background I see more clear all the points of what is happening now in Israel and in America.
I know better than you that people are going to manifestations against Netanyahu in Israel. But not because of his foreign policy, most of Israelis are supporting him here. They protest about housing situation and about cost of education, and about welfare handouts. They want more of free stuff. Israel already has almost free (government subsidized) healthcare for those who qualify, educations grants and housing financial aid for those who qualify. Actually, the same as here, in USA. Believe me, this help is enough, it is not much, you have to work as well to get this, but it is a REAL help. Again, I know it first hand, as I was a minority when I lived in Israel, I was a single mother. That's why when single mothers go on riots about that government should give them more help, I say, "Bull$$t"! I had enough help from government. I worked too. I didn't have to pay taxes, not income taxes, nor property taxes. To qualify for most of this help I had to work, though, and it is just fare! I bought an apartment with subsidized loans, my son was in best schools because he was a good student and I was getting financial help to buy his books.
All riots against Israeli government are about getting more free help. Sorry, I am against turning Israel into a welfare country, the same as I am against turning America into a welfare country.
For a country to prosper we need a free market. I don't hate rich. We may despise those who get their wealth by speculations or who live like royalty on a tax payers money (think government). But there is nothing wrong in being rich. Hating the rich is a sign of socialistic society.
You know what confuses me in you, LL? On one hand, you have a tremendously deep understanding of history of Israel, you know the REAL things and you are able to answer the most tricky questions (I remember reading your explanations about Hagana and Palmach). But you don't see this deep in nowadays situation.I'm sorry, ReuVera, but on this I disagree with you.
The protests are not deadbeats who survive off the government. Those are the ultra-Orthodox, who I'm sure you know barely work to support themselves and don't serve in the army, and are basically wards of the state. They are not protesting; they are doing quite well for basically being utterly unproductive.
The tent protesters are mostly middle-class, working Israelis who are protesting the high cost of living, and the fact that there is a huge class of perpetually-unemployed people (700,000 people, or about 10% of the population) that are on the dole, and another half-million settlers whose housing is heavily subsidized by the government. The protesters get neither of these benefits, but have to pay for it. Does your family back there really have nothing to say about the cost of living changes over the last decade?
Because Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, and UTJ are in coalition with Likud, they are beneficiaries of the governments' protection of the unemployed and subsidized. They have every reason to portray the tent protests in as negative a light as possible.Hah, it is funny that you've mentioned Ultra-Orthodox. Do I know about them? Oh, I sure do! Those are parasites, leaches thriving on the government. However, they in majority live in deep poverty, though on government money. And mind, they do not recognize the state. This is what happens when religion is not separated from the state. But this is what makes Israel the land of Jews. On the other hand, there are many other religious branches who are giving, not just taking and they are what makes us Jews.
About middle-class. Of course, this layer is the most vulnerable in any society. This problem can be solved by one way- make everyone equal. Equally poor.
When we moved to Israel, first years we lived miserably, in a shabby apartment that swallowed almost all my income, our first furniture was brought from dumpsters, I was picking up donated clothes.... what do you know? Did I whine, did I go protesting? Hell, no. I was grateful for the country for what little they were giving me and I was working- I went to study Hebrew, meanwhile working dirty jobs. When I knew Hebrew pretty well, I went looking for better jobs. In 10 years there I went from practically a zero to a nice decent level. All by my labor.
You asked about my family there. My sister and her husband live on welfare, but she works hard jobs to be eligible for this. Her husband is "disabled", I call him "fat lazy parasite". They don't know Hebrew well, so they can't count on finding good jobs. Is this their fault or government fault? They rent a two-bedroom apartment and they DO NOT starve. Her daughter with her husband both work and though they know Hebrew well, they have low jobs, as they do not have education and do not goal for this. They live very simple. Is this their fault or government fault? But my sister's son is a University student, he pays for his education himself. His Hebrew is perfect (he was brought to Israel as a baby) and he has a good job in teachers union. He will not live on welfare. Is this his achievement or government's?
All this is so simple. Before waiting for some good uncle to help you, make an effort and help yourself.Is your brother-in-law protesting? From what I gather from the articles/blogs I follow, he is not the typical type of protester. Most seem to be working Israelis, most of them native-born (and thus fluent in Hebrew), and I haven't seen any characterization by any normal media that they're a bunch of parasites.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ … WH20110728Of course, he is not protesting. He is comfortable with where he is. I know, some of my friends there went protesting, but again, it was not against foreign policy of Natanyahu, but in a main stream flow for social issues, as middle-class would go protesting in any country. For myself, I wouldn't go, I was a hard-working middle class, I was able to support myself according my income- I wasn't shooting for higher than I could afford.
But we are not talking about social issues of Israel, or are we? You are right about Ultra-Orthodox and I love how you called them "bullies" which they are. However, little can be done here, because of certain conditions. In advice to infamous LMC I recommended a book "The Source", by James Michener. You might have read it. Many inside problems are covered very first-hand there and the history is covered amazingly to my view.
Just right now I got info about an anti-Israeli campaign in NYC- they are going to place anti-Israeli adds in subway stations.
http://unitedwithisrael.org/take-action … srael-ads/
This is what we, Americans should be concerned about.I've read Michener's "Poland" and really liked it. I'll check out "The Source," too.
I am very much against the BDS campaign against Israel for a couple of reasons: 1) it singles out Israel when there are other, worse countries that don't get any attention, making it look like Israel is the world's most egregious human rights abuser, when it's not, and 2) so, so many people (some even here on HubPages!) can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli, and boycotting Israeli products seems to give them license to indulge in all sorts of racist conspiracy theories about Jews. So thank you for the link to the petition, I will sign it.
Israel's big problem, though, is its intransigence on moving on peace talks. The right-wing will slowly kill Israel as a Jewish country - just wait and see.I also signed the petition.
You might be very right about Israel being killed as a Jewish country by a right wing. But isn't it the same what those Ultra-Orthodox are afraid of? Of Israel stopping being a Jewish country? Left-wing would kill Israel as Israel altogether.
I am glad you'll check on "The Source". I am sure you will like it.From what I understand, many (but not all) ultra-Orthodox are against the secular state of Israel. They don't believe Israel should exist until it is restored as an explicitly (religiously) Jewish country by the Moshiach. A very, very small segment of them are violently against Israel, sometimes even conspiring with the Arabs. But most are still happy to live off the state they don't think should exist yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_an … of_Zionism
I personally believe the far-left and far-right fringes of any country are out of touch with reality, and serve only to spark discussion. Put into actual policy, their positions are destructive.
For Israel, the far-left really doesn't exist. The far-right does exist and it is growing rapidly.P.S. I talked today by Skype with my friend from Ashdod, Israel. She said that the vast majority of Israelis are supporting Natanyahu's foreign policy, they loved his UN speech and the least they consider him a coward. Coward would not go against the flow, a coward would go along the stream.
She also said that now life in Israel is harder then when I lived there, because prices of housing are going up and nowadays it is much harder for young people to start their life. Practically, without help from parents' they are lost. Isn't it everywhere like this?
It is so funny- Israel is painted in dark colors, but an apartment in Israel cost more than an apartment in Paris! Demands dictate the price.Yes, he is a coward, because he goes along with the majority of public opinion. He is a politician, elected by Israelis, not the UN, so talking tough with the UN is not an act of bravery.
To be a statesman, and acting in Israel's long-term interests, he will have to tell his country (and his father) that Israel will need to give up some things in negotiations. He doesn't have that courage that plenty of Israeli statesmen in the past had (maybe he doesn't want to get gunned down by another Yigal Amir?). BTW Arafat was yet another populist coward like Netanyahu, afraid of the immediate consequences of hammering out a peace deal, except he was clearly more bloodthirsty.
As for "vast majority of Israelis" supporting his foreign policy: again, it is gratifying to "stick it" to the Arabs and a US president that racists think is really a Muslim and anti-Israel. If those really are a majority among Israelis, then this is a dark turn in Israel's history.
About your last point: yes, I know, which is why I said Israel is becoming a playground for the rich.No he is not. And you are right, he was elected by Israelis to stand up for their country, which he is doing. We just differ in our opinion here and it is ok. What do you want him to give up? Israel is ready for territorial "give up" as you put it. As for settlement, listen for the truth about settlements: http://www.liamgetreu.com/2011/07/22/da … t-illegal/
Whom do you call courageous from the past? Rabin????? BTW, it is a very disputable issue about Igal Amir. I remember clearly that moment, as I was watching it by TV live. Igal Amir in the first moments was as surprised as anyone else. He was yelling, "ze srak, ze srak", which means "it's blank", like fake bullet. This part was never shown again. But I don't want to go deep into it.
Small addition- I've mentioned it already- during Bibi's first term Israel cities experience dramatically less if at all suicide bombing in comparison when others were in power. The same now. Just for this Bibi is the right one for Israel!
As for playground for rich.... Israel is becoming more of a real capitalistic country. I don't say it is good. Israel is loosing its personality by this. But I am against turning Israel into another welfare country. There are still lots of affordable housing there, but! not in the center of the country, but in far regions, where jobs are scarce. Like everywhere.
Funny- my big 3 bedroom house with a huge yard here in WI in a small town costs twice less than my tiny one-bedroom apartment on the Mediterranean shore in Israel. Same would be if you compare beach apartment in Florida with my WI house.
I would just say for all countries and politicians- Let Israel be.I agree that it's OK to disagree. I know your intentions and they are not sinister, so to me it's just a disagreement. And as a "once and future Israeli" you have more of a stake in the outcome for Israel than I do as an American. I do support it through the New Israel Fund, though - I think they do important, inspirational work there.
About less violence: that's true. I think the wall has a lot to do with it (as Israeli friends tell me), a project that was started by Rabin. The sad thing is that even with a peace deal, violence will recur and Israel will always have to be vigilant, but hopefully a lot less than now.
I think the protesters were actually against letting Israel becoming a welfare state; they were protesting the unfair subsidies and entitlements that the least productive, but most politically powerful, Israelis are getting right now.
THIS is what I was talking about...I do not go onto your anti-Muslim sites. I have the Tea-Party for that!
"while many Israelis claim that the moving of 5,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip caused a huge rift in Israeli society, the move was necessary for compliance with the law. Many settlers who had colonized the Gaza Strip were then moved into new settlements in the West Bank, thereby nullifying any compliance that may have been achieved by moving out of Gaza.
Israeli forces then bombed and demolished all of the buildings of the Gaza settlements, rendering them as toxic dumps where the residents of Gaza are afraid to go due to the potential health risks of exposure to asbestos and other chemicals.
Although both the international community and the United Nations have condemned Israel for its settlement of civilians on occupied territories, no international body has attempted to enforce the rulings."
Netanyahu is a horrible man. One-sided and evil. Meanwhile, our decent, kind president is bashed by peope who hold loyalty to another country.
Sickening, IMO.
do you mean, it's a Christian site??????? I'll take a closer look when my time permits. But on the first glance, it would be more kind of anti-political-lie thing, not anti-Islam as a religion.
I would assume so - only Christians would cheer on another Crusades (as you probably know, Jews didn't fare too well with the last set of them...).
Interesting topic
I am Muslims! but I never hate ! jews why american hate islam! 
hmmm. not so sure why! ? give me one good reason why american should hate islam! America doesn't hate Islam, we are a tolerant people who embrace the diversity that Islam is. We hate terrorists, the majority of which happens to be Muslims.
You may not hate Islam there are plenty on here who do!
And as for the fanny about the majority of Terrorists being Muslim, open your eyes and look around you!My eyes are open, and I don't see any other terrorists other than Muslims.
What creates terrorists? That is the important question.
Most Americans don't "hate Islam." However, the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon by fundamentalist extremist Muslims wasn't good public relations for the Muslim faith. The same goes for anti-Israel propaganda and rocket attacks.
harrist, Americans do not hate Islam, because they live in free country. What we all hate is evil.
My birth country is Slovakia. The Turks (their religion is Islam) invaded Slovakia killed the men and took to Turkey woman and children. Boys became soldiers and they by brainwashing invaded their own country. Islam is spreading by sword, we preach Word. We Christian love Muslim in spite of it. But not all in USA are true Christians and reacting according to Muslim behavior. What do you expect?
I hope you are writing the junk just to rile people up. At least that would have a purpose.
The pupose is the up-coming vote to give Palistine state-hood.
A very very good reason to point out why Islam should not be given another terrorist state, and that the suppossed Palistinians should be absorbed by the Islams, as it was Islam who created the refugees.
Oh the lie has been shattered... embrace your fellow Leftists and be proud.
You all would have been had he won.
The American Left was fine with Hitler untill he betrayed Stalin, that betrayal was mutual but the American left didn't like it none the less.
And the European left and American Left is as anti-Semetic as it gets.
And yes similar pics of the pope etc... but the pope didn't go around and crate SS units for the NAZIs as Amin did. The Bosnian Muslim SS slaightered tens of thousands of Jews and others and their role was wiped from history, as was turkeys and Irans and Palistines... all wiped clean.
Anti-Semetism has been the tie that binds the European Left and Islam for centuries John.
Good company you all keep.
And I will take the word of the Austrian school of Economics and their theorists over you all any day.
And look here is some of those American Muslims who love this country so much...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/gird-yo … e-at-home/
Palistine is not now and never should be recognized as a state.Ah well, they must be lying -
http://www.european-left.org/nc/english … -groups-1/
Well somebody must.Yes they are... I have been telling you that.
The Left tolerates all those who believe as they.
And screw the rest of us.
Glad you finally caught up.Unlike the right which tolerates all those who believe as they do, and screw the rest of us.
I tolerate all people... Left to Right.
Talk to a Leftists about Israel... and watch the love flow. It is no different then talking to a muslim about Israel.
The tie that binds.A leftist maybe, but not all or even many.
As for the idea that you tolerate all people, that doesn't wash. You are actually pretty intolerant like most on the right.And yet, the party of American Jews would be ....?
Certainly not TEA.?... What are talking about?
Are there Secular Left Jews... yes.
Just like there were Jews in Germany who sold their own to the ovens... George Soros comne to mind... but there were many indeed.
You would be surpriswed the people in a race or community that would willingly walk to their own graves in the name of many a BS excuse or reasoning.
As long as Islam is allowed to exist?
Source: Wikipedia:
Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity. According to a 2009 demographic study, Islam has 1.57 billion adherents, making up 23% of the world population.[1][2]
Islam is the predominant religion in the Middle East, in northern Africa,[3][4] and in some parts of Asia.[5] Large communities of Muslims are also found in China, the Balkans, and Russia.[6] Other parts of the world host large Muslim immigrant communities; in Western Europe, for instance, Islam is the second largest religion after Christianity, though it represents less than 5% of the total population.[7]
Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in Asia.
About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries.[10]
A demographic study conducted by the Pew Research Center in October 2009[1][2] found that there are 1.57 billion Muslims around the world, accounting for roughly 1 in 4 people. The study found more Muslims in Germany than in Lebanon and more in China than in Syria.[11]
And all these non-Palestinian Muslims are a threat to Israel and thus should not be allowed to "exist" because....????It is hate speech and should be outlawed world wide as such.
Well that is a surprisingly anti-American viewpoint, TMMason
The First Amendment doesn't apply to that particular religion?
And as to the practicalities of your idea of ridding the world of all Muslims,who would accomplish such abolishment?
Certainly not a government (read: OUR government)???
I think you're pulling my berka here so I'll hand you the win and go to work now:). Cheers, sir.
MMWhat would make you think that is un-American?
Hasn't the Left pushed their hate speech laws to the point of censorship already?
Why not add Islam?
And I have not said Muslims, nor People, should not be allowed to exist. I said Islam, the suppossed religion. Without Islam to cling to there would naturally be less Muslims.
- Holmes221bposted 12 years ago
0It is known that there were many in the Roman Catholic Church, who did a lot to secretly help the Jews, including the nuns and monks who hid them and helped them to escape Germany. However, the Pope was known to say daily prayers for Hitler and gave the Nazi salute. And Hitler's own Roman Catholicism was the cause for his anti-Semitism, as this was an official doctrine of that church until the 1960s.
I used to work in a Roman Catholic seminary, and whilst there heard of its history in World War II, when it sent lights into the sky from its observatory during air raids, as a signal to the German bombers. There seemed to have been a schizophrenic attitude within the church between those who approved of Hitler's Final Solution and those who did everything they could to protect the Jews. And it is a past the Church still has to admit to.Not holding our breath on that one, are we?
The Church has a long list of schizo actions to answer for -- before and after WWII.
Islam has nothing to do with Israel.
It's a pan-Arabist movement that seeks to wipe Israel off the map. Naturally, they're trying to make it a Muslim thing in order to get support from Iranians, Pakistanis, Turks, and other non-Arab Muslims who really shouldn't care about an Arab territorial dispute.
The fact that many non-Arab Muslims bear the same resentments towards the West as Arabs makes it quite a bit easier.There is one Jewish homeland in the world, which is officially secular, yet many Muslim nations. And as Muslims make up 1 in 4 of the world's population, I would have hoped they might be charitable enough to allow this one small nation to exist, especially considering it was their land originally, even though this was hundreds of years ago. Yes, there have been many violations by the Israelis into occupied territory, but this must be seen in the light of thousands of years of persecution of the Jews, who have just as much right to exist as anyone else.
Try to convince the pan-Arabists (and the Islamists, who now have a new cause celebre) of that.
They don't really care that the history of Jews is full of genocide and persecution; they usually say it's at the hand of Christians (which is mostly true although not completely true).So, now that the Jews are doing the genocide and persecution, will it then be Ok?
No, of course it's not OK. But they're not committing genocide, no matter how much you want to believe that.
Israel has been more than a bit heavy handed, building more settlements and in the extent of its retaliation for Palestinian rocket attacks. As a result many of it's friends have become critics.
That's true, but it still hasn't committed genocide. If that were its goal, it could have done so rather easily.
I doubt very much LMC was ever a friend of Israel, but as for others, that is true.I wouldn't have been a friend of the Nazi's either, whereas they had plenty of people who made excuses for them.
Just as you people are doing now for the Zionists, IMO.
I would have been just as sickened by the Nazi regime as I am of the Zionist one.
And I am sorry to inform you, but I can gather quotes of many Israeli Prime Ministers and high-leve people who have said that they want to wipe out the Palestinians.
Maybe they figure a slow, torturous death is better?Please, gather those quotes. And, for good measure, find quotes from Israeli Prime Ministers and high-level people saying that Palestinians are looking for the same thing as Israelis and that they (Israelis) want peace (since you won't find Nazis saying that about Jews).
What was the relative death toll: at the hand of the Nazis vs the Israelis?
Telling that Israel and Nazi Germany sicken you in equal measure."We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, pg. 99
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News OnlineLMC: You didn't answer my other request, or my very simple question. Why not?
Your very first quote is a willful distortion of what was said:
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
- Ben GurionIt is not my quote, I got it from a web-site of quotes.
And I see you ignore anything that shows the terrible attitude of Israeli leaders.
I will have to look up stats if you want that other question answered.
But I know the world came to Israel's aid from the horrors of the Nazi's, just as they are now coming to the aid of the Palestinians from the horrors of the Zionists.
"The only thing that allows evil to flourish, is that good people say nothing." (paraphrase)Yes, I know you got those quotes from a bunch of antiSemitic sites. That's where I found the first (wrong) one. It's interesting that you're so willing to believe all of them without a moment's investigation.
Please get those numbers; try to use actual sources and not antiSemitic ones. You might learn something from them (i.e. how ridiculous it is to compare the Nazis to the Israelis).
Please also get quotes from Israeli leaders who have said they want peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians (I know it will be painful for you to do that, but please try), and also get quotes from Palestinians leaders expressing a terrible attitude toward Jews and an interest in cleansing them out or killing them (again, you might not like to read what they have to say, and it's more than just a few).As you see...you are doing all this to justify what Israel is doing!!!
There is no justification for it! Just as there was no justification for the Nazi's.
And you say Israel deserves sympathy, even while they are doing the same as was done to them!
Yes. The same.
Rounding Jews up and herding them in concentration camps.
Throwing Palestinians out of their homes and herding them into an outdoor prison.
Shooting and bombing indiscriminately.The Jews own Israel, bought and paid for, so they allow muslims to be there and then get bombed for it in thanx.
We see whose fault it is.Lots and lots and lots of false equivalencies.
And you've avoided my request and simple question now twice.You don't want to know. You want to continue to feed fantasies that allow you to hate Jews.
What is that they call an irrational hatred of the jews?
hurmmm?....
http://www.1lit.com/islam/israel-zionis … tions.html
see for yourself.
That's okay Chris, in a month or so Turkey, Iran, Egypt and the American and EU Leftists will make a strike against Israel, (their next lil floatilla... that I would sinka ofa the coasta... and then you will have that war of annihalation you all want so bad.
Of course my money is on Israel.Nobody I know wants a war...I have heard that fat tv preacher talking about it....what's his name?? Beckles friend..HAGEE! He wants war.
Me, I just want the goons to stop running things, that's it.
"Telling that Israel and Nazi Germany sicken you in equal measure."
I think the Zionists ARE Nazi's!If Islam was allowed its way, and I do mean Islam the ideology, the Jews and Israel would be no more than a pile of ash. There would nothing in the middle east of the Jews to ever show they were there to begin with.
All the blood and death islam scream about involving Israel and the jews and you Leftists have the balls to get mad at Israel for defending itself and refusing to be boxed in. What a joke.
But that just exemplifies my words that the tie that binds Islam and the Left is Anti-Semitism.
Keep proving me right Chris.It's you who get mad at the Palestinians for defending themselves against Israel.
I've had to reply here TM, something weird happened when I pressed reply to your other response. Something like less and flag. By the way, I haven't flagged it. But, you talk a lot about leftists wanting to strike against Israel, I'm a leftist, you may have noticed
this is so not true. There are many people on the left, including Israelis, that completely oppose the illegal settlements. That also believe that Netanyahu is not only hurting Palestinians, but also Israelis by his refusal to tackle the expansionists. You are the one who is talking the language of war and hate.
The rhetoric you use is aggressive and antagonistic. And, yep, there are groups that do not recognize Israel, just like you do not recognize Palestine.
Peace is achieved by negotiation and compromise. NOT aggression and hate. Do you think that by recognizing both Palestine and Israel, you might help future generations better able to compromise and agree??Peace is achieved by negotiation and compromise? Not even close, peace is achieved by destroying your enemies ability to make war and by killing its desire to want to continue to fight. This is accomplished by KILLING the enemy and all that may harbor them. We have listened to the left for far too long on the appropriate way of waging war and have unending conflicts because of it.
The Left just does not understand that you cannot have peace with someone who does not want peace. And could not accept it even if offered.
Go to a Madrassa in the Middle-East and see what the lil kids are taught as regards israel and jews... they are taught to hate and kill. Why... because that is allah's command to his faithful... and allah's word is law and un-changable.
As I said, in 2000 Arafat walked away from everything simply because he cannot grant peace to Israel and the jewws... he, Arafat, does not over-rule allah.
And what is funny now is that his top advisor, who claimed he was the one who convinced Arafat to walk away is now the President of the Palistinians.
Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen.
Abu Mazen had always been Chairman Arafat’s right hand man, and has credited himself with having had encouraged Arafat to walk away from the negotiating table at Camp David, yet he has been regarded by most as a more reasonable interlocutor than Arafat, a new-born Messiah, who can deliver the goods.
Oh yes there will be peace trusting these Muslims... what a laugh.
Amen. TMMason is a contemporary Joe McCarthy and proud of it.
Ralph, one day Muslims will tell you: you cannot build house in this territory. It is our territory.
"Slaughtering Jews and burning Israel.
It is you alls favorite pastime."
Yeah, I see it's the Jews who are being slaghtered here in 2011...snark.
Get with the times.
1940's=Israeli's are victims
2011=Israelis are persecutors
Oh, and btw...first I have to get to the blacks and the lesbians...remember: I am a racist homohpobic anti-semite....according to you.
......who accuses the Left of using labels and racism.You are what you are acording to your words Chris.
Nothing to do with me. I did not make the racist homophoblic jokes, I did not speak about how I was an anti-Semite who hated Jews for simply being Israeli... those were all your words.
And the Jews have suffered with islam for 1400+ years Chris. Along with all non-Muslims intheir vacinity.
See... there is were you are so lost. You seem to think this conflict began in the 20th century.
Way off.You are a mis-leading creep. report all you want.
I have tried to keep it plain and simple. I have a problem with Zionists and neo-cons, and the Israeli gvt. But you always have to smear it into hating all Jews.
My grandson is half black....yes, I hate him.
My best friend is a lesbian...yes, I hate her.
"The Palestinians in the West Bank, 3.5 million today, will not live without civil rights for another 42 years. We might as well get used to the fact that the world won't stand for it. Can Netanyahu or Shimon Peres explain why the Palestinians do not deserve their own state? Do they have even the slightest of arguments? Nothing. And why not now? We have already seen, especially of late, that time only reduces the possible alternatives in the region. So even that weak excuse is dead.
Yesterday, a coalition of Israeli peace organizations published a list of 50 reasons for Israel to support a Palestinian state. Assuming that you only accept five of them, isn't that enough? What exactly is the alternative, now that the heavens are closing in around us? Can anyone, can Peres or Netanyahu, seriously contend that the regional hostility toward us would not have lessened had the occupation already ended and a Palestinian state been established?
The truths are so basic, so banal, that it hurts even to repeat them. But, unfortunately, they're the only ones we have. And so, a simple question to whoever will be representing us at the UN next week: Why not, for heaven's sake? Why "no" once again? And to what will we say "yes"?
* Gideon Levy is a Haaretz columnist and a member of the newspaper's editorial boardChris you are confused. Never read the truth. There were Jews all the time for 3000 years and Christians 2000 years. Do Christian ask for the state? Muslim religion started in 600 ad. All so called Palestinians are Arabs came from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and so on. Why they want Promised Land and other countries? Why they do not like to go back to Arabia? Expansion of Islam is their goal. They kill for it. And you say it is OK? I see how misinformed you are. Turks invaded my old country Slovakia, took many as slaves to their homeland. Many were killed.
"In VaYoel Moshe [Satmar Hasidim founder] Teitelbaum explicitly declared that, from the time of the very inception of the Zionist movement in the 1890s, the Zionists violated the three oaths, and thereby caused the Holocaust, as well as all wars, terrorism, and violence in modern Israel, and most anti-Semitism around the world since that time, as a result:
“…it has been these Zionist groups that have attracted the Jewish people and have violated the Oath against establishing a Jewish entity before the arrival of the Messiah. It is because of the Zionists that six million Jews were killed.”
In keeping with the three oaths, Satmar Hasidim were strongly opposed to the creation of modern Israel through violence and antagonism against gentile nations such as the Ottomans and Britain. In the years following the Holocaust, Rabbi Teitelbaum undertook to maintain and strengthen this position, as did many other Torah Jews and communities. Rabbi Teitelbaum declared that the State of Israel was a violation of Jewish teachings."
*****
He confused too?The ultra-Orthodox are almost all against Israel, but for religious reasons. They believe Israel can not exist as a secular state; it must be restored by a personal messiah. This doesn't stop many of them from moving to Israel, though - they live off the government there, and are free to practice their religion without harassment by non-Jews.
Israel was founded by mostly secular Jews seeking to escape the horrors of violent anti-Semitism, which existed everywhere Jews were a minority.Absolutely!
To lovemychicks: lady, you should listen to livelonger, he gives you so much for your thoughts, if only you could use it without rejection. If you still want to follow the crappy anti-Semitic sites, at least read a book by James Michener, "The Source". It is a great historic, archaeological, psychological, etc account of the land of Israel. Please, make an effort and read it.Arrugula: Thanks for the smug advice...but I can pick my own books, thanks.
And I do not listen to anyone who calls me a Jew-Hater.
Nor will I ever.
And that's really interesting, and probably rather insulting to many Jews, that you think they are there in Israel, because it's bought and paid for. So, they allow the Arabs to stay. I actually can't believe that you said that. I've never heard you make a homophobic joke TM, but I have heard you in other forums talk about how homosexuality is unnatural. You use the same tone when you talk about gay men and women as you do when you talk about Islam. TM, newsflash, people are different but EQUAL. Difference is good, equality is essential.
Israel was bought and paid for and that is historic fact.
And as the owners of that land they have allowed Muslims to live there, whether explicitly or implicitly.
What would be insulting about sayiong that.
And no I do not believe homosexuality to be natural, or genetic, that doesn't make me a homophobe, just realistic.
I really do not get your issue Hollie?
http://www.danielpipes.org/9931/palesti … purchasing
Where did the refugees come from...
"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.
"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.
"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.
- Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East analyst and commentator
" The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387
"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … sp#Whathap
Islam sent and left their own people there and have refused to reintergrate those refugees.
Islam is at fault for the plight of the palistinians... not Israel.
And it is hysterically funny that you would state I am insulting jews, when Chris has called them genocidal opressors among many other things, and not a peep from you.
Funny.Firstly, LMC has not slurred Jews, or the Jewish faith, or any other faith for that matter. LMC has made her feelings clear regarding Zionists. There's a difference. SHE IS NOT BEING ANTI SEMATIC. That's why there was no word from me. Not a joke. I understand what LMC is trying to convey.
Many Jews, even though I do not belong to any religion, despite my parentage, are very sensitive and understandably so, when their faith or peoples are critisized. However, when we see injustice, no matter who the perps are, we have to challenge it. It was not challenged sufficiently, or indeed at all, when it should have been pre WW11. We know the consequences!
Greed and intolerance transcends religion, race, gender and sexuality. Therefore, to say that one religion, race or gender is immune to this 'disease' is unrealistic, false and definitely not conducive to world peace or complete equality.
In your own words, you talk about the 'plight' of the Palistinians. So you agree that they have suffered? Yet your original post, tells them to 'piss off and go find somewhere else to live' That's what I mean, when I say you do not have a very christian attitude towards your fellow man.
After WW11. The Jewish peoples acquired,in part, their holy land. For them, this was spiritual, not fiscal. Hence, 'bought and paid for' is entirely inappropriate.
And, I'm afraid that unlike you, I do not find anything funny about the situation in the Middle East. On the contrary, I find it very sad that so many have suffered.
She is what she is according to your words TMM, not LMC's.
I am not the one who made racist homophobic jokes, Hollie.
If I had you and all the rest would be calling me on it and beating me over the head with it.
If I told racist homophobic jokes you all would definitely call me a racist homophobe... matter of facgt I have been called it without making racist and homophobic jokes or comments.
So to call a Leftoist on it is a no no... but to call a conservative racist or homophobe is okay even if they do not say anything racist or homophobic... good to know where you stand on that hollie.What is the racist homophobic joke?
please...word for word.Your black lesbian rice and beans joke... I do not have to repeat it you know damn well you said it and where.
it shows your shame and knowledge of your act in that you would act like it wasn't said and no one knows where to find it.
Unless you deleted it last nite so as to cover yourself.
Which thread was it in Chris?... fess up to it...
Or you can act like you never said it and that would be so very deceptive it isn't funny.
If a consevative ever made a joke involving black lesbians or gays and rice and beans or chicken and watermelon all you leftists would hit the roof.
The selective ignorance is amazing...It's in MM's "did you hear about condi and sarah" thread....
please...word for word. And show how it's racist and homophobic.Why should I write any of it out... go to the thread an read it... God knows you turned the whole thread to that joke.
Denial... that is all I hear from leftists every time they spew hate and racism. Which is quite often I might add.
And do not worry Chris, like most racists, I do not expect you to admit or even recognize your racism.
I learned that from the Leftists... that most racists do not accept nor recognize their own racism.
Seems the Leftists may be on to sometthing there.Can't do it, can you?
So stop putting your hatred of me onto my person.
Which thread was it in Chris?... fess up to it...
OMG now you actually sound like Mcarthy.Yes... I am giving her the opurtunitty to step forward and do the right thing. To admit the joke was in bad taste and racist in its speaking. Pretty simply.
If you think a joke about 2 black lesbians and rice and beans is not racially charged and dripping with racial over-tones, then you are in denial along with Chris. What about rice and beans is funny? You wouldn't have laughed had it been two white women... you know why you thought the rice and beans was funny, racism.
And that is sad.... I would have expected better of you.
Racism is racism regardless of who is practicing it.
Now back on topic please.
@Chris... why would I report you Chris... that is not my style... say whatever you want.Actually, didn't read the post so cannot say whether i would have found it funny or not. What is funny though, is your comment about racism, regardless of whose practicing it. What a joke. You're so funny TMM
Sorry, can't remember when I called you a racist homophobe. I merely talked about your tone when talking about groups to which you don't belong, nor agree with. Now, if I wanted to infer that you were a racist homophobe, I would simply resort to copying and pasting your comments from precious forums. It really wouldn't be that difficult.
Yeah I pointed out earlier how you leftists call conservatives racist homophobes for no reason, then defend the racist in your ranks with fiegned ignorance.
It is amazing how you try to turn her racist/homophobic joke on to me being a racist/homophobe for calling her on it.
As I said earlier, you all exeplify every word I say about the Leant Leftists with your every action.
Continue on...Why not, unless I've missed it, 'she' being LMC, I believe asked you to point out where, exactly, she had been a racist homophobe. Funny, I have no recollection of racist homophobic terminology that LMC has used. Except of course, where she was being sarcastic. On the other hand, TMM, there have been multiple occasions where you have slated other religions and sexualitys. Frequently, attributed every wrong in the world to one political view, religious ideology and sexuality other than yours. Take a good long look in the mirror. I know it's painful. Good night!
Yes... I state that homosexuality is not natural, nor is it genetic, and that is the truth, you can call it what you want, but in the end it is the truth.
I also state the facts as regards Islam plainly. Like this myth of Spain going on. Read some of the Islamic scholars of the time and they will recite the bloody atrocities and slaughters for you involved in that era with glee. They are damn proud of them.
And I attribute the problems in this country to the Liberal Socialist Democrats and their treasonous Marxist useful idiot folowers, along with the Progressives who range throughout all parties.
And I blame the Conservatives who have made it into the system and then bowed down and compromised the lil left, away to the Leftists and Progressives.
Your issue is with the facts... not me.
Oh and I do not cede my mind to PC, I speak it the way it is.My issue is, with what you believe to be facts. Not with you.
The Jews, Muslims and Christians lived peacefully together in Spain for three hundred years.
Bullshit.
Islam conquered Spain and imposed Dhimmitude on non-Muslims, not to mention the mass slaughters they undertook in thier time their. That is just the Liberal 'golden age" BS... never happened.
Matter of fact if it wasn't for the Jews and Christians secretly compiling the knowledge of centries, then all the knowledge of those nations would have gone the way of the Library of Alexadria under the Muslims.You are a poor student of history. Jews had it relatively good under the Muslims, when Islam wasn't riddled with the insecurities that it unfortunately has now.
When the Christians took over, we got the Inquisition...and millions of murdered and displaced Jews and Muslims."Jews had it "relatively" good"
Uh-hum!...
Okay.
And my History is just fine, just not liberaled down to placate certain political groups and protected peoples.You know Livelonger, how ever difficult and heated these debates get, you go away for a while, really think, delve into all your learning and come back with something balanced. I really respect you for that. Good night to you all, I'm tired
Livelonger, had to reply here. Don't know if it's a glitch or I'm just not very good at following a thread, probably the latter
That's what I meant by framework for peace talks, at place at which they can begin, but not nessercerily the eventual outcome. Bush also I believe suggested the same re: 67 borders? That's why I just don't get it when people accuse Obama of anti semitism re the framework for peace talks.That is something I find very confusing as well....people here say that Obama is just carrying on Bush. So that means they think Bush and Obama are pretty much the same.
But I never heard ANYONE call Bush a socialist,or a communist--use that to smear him.
Never heard Bush called an anti-semite--use that to smear him.
Why Obama?Who knows! I think one of the problems that people have with Obama is that although he faces many constraints within office, he's not been quite as controlable as some may have hoped. Just watching the news now, it's looking likely that 2/3 rds of the UN assembly will vote in favour of Palestines enhanced status at the UN. IMF and the world bank have also confirmed that Palestine is strong enough, I assume they mean economically, to become an independent state.
I have constantly told you bush is a Progressive... just like 2/3rds of the idiots in the Republican race right now.
Putting anyone of them into the Presidency will have the same effect in the end as leaving Obama in... the Progressives are simply slower and more patient than the Liberal/Socialist/Democrat Marxist Commie loving slime of the Left.
Yes, it's been understood for a long time that the '67 borders are the starting point of peace talks.
Obama's statement was deliberately misread by the far-right and far-left to mean a return to the 1967 borders.Well, just heard it on the news that Abbas has agreed to meet with Israeli reps before the vote at the UN. Lets keep our fingers crossed and hope some progress is made this time.
Wonder what the word would be if sis or seven million Arabs were immigrated into New York
"there are 124 official Israeli settlements and 100 informal outposts, and 12 Jerusalem settlements on Palestinian land." All paid for I'm sure. It's not theft if it is already yours.
Stop all this whining over Israel they created the modern form of terrorism back in 1947, they continue to expand their land when the majority of Jews live outside of Israel also the continue to spy on their good friend the USA in reality I never really understood why we feel sorry for Israel yes 6 million were killed during WW2 but so were 20 million russians . But to be fair the Arab nations of the world don't really care about Palestine they just use it for something to fuel anger in their countries to take the anger away from their own corrupt regimes
Think what most people don't recognize consciously
is class.The Palestinians/Islam are not interested in peace but have clearly chosen terrorism and the anihilation of the State of Israel as their ultimate goal.
Let all keep in mind that after being offered 95% of the West Bank and Gaza, half of Jerusalem and an independent state of their own, Arafat and the Palestinians refused and didn't even present a counter offer.
After Deborah Sontag from the NY Times published a revisionist article blaming Israel and the US for the failed Camp David peace talks, here's what President Clinton told Barak:
"What the hell is this? Why is she turning the mistakes we made into the essence? The true story of Camp David was that for the first time in the history of the conflict the American president put on the table a proposal, based on UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, very close to the Palestinian demands, and Arafat refused even to accept it as a basis for negotiations, walked out of the room, and deliberately turned to terrorism. That's the real story, all the rest is gossip."
Here are a few more excerpts:
Arafat said "No." Clinton, enraged, banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe." A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day. The summit sputtered on for a few days more but to all intents and purposes it was over.
What they [Arafat and his colleagues] want is a Palestinian state in all of Palestine. What we see as self-evident, [the need for] two states for two peoples, they reject. Israel is too strong at the moment to defeat, so they formally recognize it.
Repeatedly during our prolonged interview, conducted in his office in a Tel Aviv skyscraper, Barak shook his head in bewilderment and sadness at what he regards as Palestinian, and especially Arafat's, mendacity:
"They are products of a culture in which to tell a lie...creates no dissonance. They don't suffer from the problem of telling lies that exists in Judeo-Christian culture. Truth is seen as an irrelevant category. There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't. They see themselves as emissaries of a national movement for whom everything is permissible. There is no such thing as "the truth."
You might also want to read an interview with Shlomo Ben-Ami who was Israel's Foreign Minister at the time.
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000069.html
The Palistinians wanted the destruction of Israel over peace, war and death over compromise, even when that comprommise gave them all.
Screw Palistine and screw Islam... they can get out of Israel!Screw Palistine and screw Islam... they can get out of Israel
Such a diplomatic fellowPalistine was it's own independent nation up until the end of WW2. England was the leader in pushing the Palistinians out to make room for the displaced Jews and Holicost survivors, basically giving back their land that they held 2000 years ago. People wonger why the Palistinians are pissed. By the way, screw Christianity - caused more problems than all the religions combined..
Yep, supposedly under British protection. Britain failed miserably and handled the whole situation very badly. First to admit it. I don't wonder why the Palistinians are pissed off. I can well imagine.
The British though, were subject to terrorist attacks by the Irgun!
Yeah, they still took the easy way out though LMC. The world could've been a very different place, if better decisions were made back then.
Just what My president said: Return to 67 borders, end the settlements, and recognize each other.
Here is the story of the real refugees from the Israeliu conflicts with Islam.
Another refugee situation also resulted from Israel's independence. It was larger in numbers and in property lost than the Palestinian Arabs, yet we never hear about it, why?
The Real Refugees
Most of the world is ignoring the real catastrophe of the past recent era: the brutal expulsion of some 867,000 Jews from Arab countries, and the seizure, by the Arab governments, of over $13-billion worth of Jewish property and assets.
Algeria
During the war for Algerian independence from France in the 1950s and early 1960s, Algerian nationalists carried out violent attacks on Algerian Jews. After the French left, the Algerian authorities issued a variety of anti- Jewish decrees, including the imposition of heavy taxes on the Jewish community. Nearly all of Algeria's 160,000 Jews fled the country. All but one of Algeria's synagogues were seized and turned into mosques.
Egypt
The ancient Jewish community of Egypt numbered over 90,000 by the 1940s. Riots by Egyptian nationalists in 1945 claimed many Jewish lives, and synagogues and Jewish buildings were burned down. A new wave of discrimination and violence was unleashed in 1948. Over 250 Jews were killed or injured, Jewish shops were looted, and Jewish assets were frozen. Some 35,000 Jews left Egypt by 1950. Gamal Abdel Nasser, who seized power in 1954, arrested thousands of Jews and confiscated their property. Emigration reduced Egyptian Jewry to just 8,000 by 1957.
Iraq
The Jews of Iraq, with roots dating back to ancient Babylonia, numbered about 190,000 in 1947. When Israel was established, Jewish emigration was forbidden, and hundreds of Jews were jailed. Those convicted of "Zionism" --a criminal offense-- were sentenced to internal exile or fines of up to $40,000 each. Tens of thousands of Jews slipped out of the country. Then, in 1950, the government legalized emigration and pressured the Jews to leave; by 1952, only 6,000 remained. Jewish emigrants were permitted to take with them only $140 per adult; all of their remaining assets and property were confiscated by the Iraqi government.
Libya
The 2,000 year-old Jewish community of Libya, which numbered almost 60,000 by the 1940s, was the target of mass anti-Jewish violence in November 1945. In Tripoli alone, 120 Jews were massacred, over 500 wounded, 2,000 were made homeless, and synagogues were torched. There were more pogroms in January 1946, with 75 Jews massacred in Zanzur, and more than 100 murdered in other towns. By the early 1950s, more than 40,000 Libyan Jews had emigrated.
Morocco
In 1948, there were about 350,000 Jews living in Morocco, a community with ancient roots going back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE). In June 1948, pogromists massacred 39 Jews in the town of Djerada and 4 more in Oujda. Over 50,000 Jews fled Morocco in terror. During the 1950s, there was violence against Jews in Oujda, Rabat, and Casablanca. Most of Moroccan Jewry emigrated during the years to follow.
Syria
There were 17,000 Jews in Syria in 1948, a community dating back to biblical times. Anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo in 1947. All of the local synagogues were destroyed, and 7,000 of the town's 10,000 Jews fled in terror. The government then enacted legislation to freeze Jewish bank accounts and confiscate Jewish property. By the 1950s, just 5,000 Jews remained in Syria, subjected to harsh decrees; they were banned from emigrating, selling their property, or working in government offices, and were compelled to carry special cards identifying them as Jews.
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … sp#Another
Oh but pity the poor poor Palistinians... let Islam absorb its own refugees.They are not Islam's refugees....they are Israel's.
And the Palistinians are Islam's refugees... they can take care of them.
I am glad you agree.I don't agree, never have agreed with you on anything.
Don't be ridiculous. He's asked them to return to 67 borders, cease illegal settlement building and recognize each other. How on earth can you come to conclusion that that is antisematic. There are also Israelis that agree with this framework for peace talks.
How can I come to that conclusion? I just can.
All Israelis who are in any way serious about peace know that the 67 borders are the basis (not the finality) of the eventual solution. Naturally, there will have to be plenty of mutually-agreed upon land swaps, and Obama explicitly called for that.
That word is thrown around a lot here.....funny how you get upset by being called silly, and look at you!
Ohohhhhhhh ooohhhhh I gotta sneeze;;;;;;;"Hasbarat"
That's not what he said.
Funny how you and ultra-Zionists heard the same thing.
But, mutual recognition of two countries who need to stay out of each other's business should be key.
How should Israel respond if Palestine is its own country and it continues lobbing rockets into Israel?There would be no need for rockets if they had not been so brutally mistreated.
And you should be asking the same question of the IDF.Withdrawing from the Gaza and leaving the settler infrastructure in place (greenhouses, farms, etc) for Palestinian use is mistreatment?
That was the "provocation" that led Gazans to vote in Hamas, and for Hamas to start bombing Israel.I'm talking about the 60 years of mistreatment.
Oh, I see. So there's no chance of peace at all. All of Israel's past misdeeds will continue to haunt it in the form of neverending violent reprisals, all with your blessing.
I guess Israel shouldn't bother forming a peace deal at all, and instead gird itself for eternal war.
(There are lots on the Israeli right who say the same in reverse - you don't think the Palestinians have been innocent for 60 years, do you?)
"Dang...I wonder if Beans knows?
You know, Condi's "other" woman...they share a house together. The mortgage says Rice and Beans."
That the big racist homophobic joke? In which you threw in the anti-semite slander?"Torah-true Jews wish to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors in every country among the community of nations, including in historic Palestine. They deplore acts and policies of violence carried out by those who, misusing the name of Israel our forefather, have substituted the ideal of chauvinist nationalism for the eternal values of the Torah, the eternal divinely bestowed inheritance of the Jewish people.
It has been the age-old intention of Zionism to intentionally stir up anti-Semitism anywhere possible, and even more commonly, to take advantage of any Jewish suffering anywhere in order to enhance its cause Indeed, hatred of Jews and Jewish suffering is the oxygen of the Zionist movement, and from the very beginning has been to deliberately incite hatred of the Jew and then, in feigned horror, use it to justify the existence of the Zionist state – this is, of course, Machiavellianism raised to the highest degree. Thus, the Zionists thrive on hatred and suffering of Jews, and seek to benefit thereby through keeping Jews in perpetual fear, causing them to ignore the true nature of Zionism, and instead to consider the Zionist state is their salvation.""Jews Against Zionism is a group for Jews and others opposed to the Zionist movement and ideology, and to its impact on both Palestinians and Jews. This is not a religious group, not a racist hate group, and not a conspiracy-theory group. JAZ is a political group, committed to coexistence between Palestinians and Israeli Jews.
We believe that the conflict in Palestine cannot be resolved without a return of Palestinian refugees and dismantlement of the Zionist structure of the state of Israel - and that this is impossible in the context of two states and a re-partition of Palestine. We advocate the only approach which can lead to peace with justice in the region: we call for a unitary, secular and democratic Palestine, the return of Palestinian refugees, and full and equal rights for Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all other people living in the whole of Palestine."
****
So--do all these people hate Jews too, or is it just me?Palistine was givin back to the jews as recompense for Islams participation with the NAZIs in slaughtering jews.
You people think you can ignore all the evil that religion has caused and done in the name of momo and allah, and just blame everyone else... what a joke.
Radical Islamic Jihad and pan-Arabism in its violent form find a common root in Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He is the vector of European fascism into the modern Islamic world, both religious and secular.
And his actions and those islams with him sealed the fate of Cannan to be givin back to the jews... who puchased the land from the Muslumps anyways just to be right in the deal.
1914-1917, Amin Al-Husseini swears allegiance to the Ottoman Empire during the Armenian genocide [i] . [ii] He is an officer stationed in Smyrna and participates first-hand in the Armenian genocide. One and a half million Christians are slaughtered under the sword of Islamic Jihad by the Ottoman Army. Allegiance to Ottoman Empire and Islamic world take-over will be echoed by Osama Bin Laden in his post-September 11th declaration
1920, The Violence Begins, Riots. Amin Al-Husseini becomes lead figure in organizing riots against locals. Amin Al-Husseini begins life-long campaign of inciting hate between Jews and Muslims under British Mandate of Palestine. He begins rule of terror over local Muslim leaders, who denounce him as an ignorant thug.
1921, Grand Mufti Against The Will of The People,
The British, against the local Muslim vote, appoint Amin Al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Amin Al-Husseini came in a poor fourth place in the vote [v] . The Muslim community rejected his candidacy because he had not received any credible Islamic education. He was neither a Sheikh (religiously accredited leader) nor an Alim (Islamic scholar). He becomes the pre-eminent Arab power in Palestine. His brutality becomes notorious and is rejected by local Muslim leadership.
If they had only known what would come of that appoinment.
1922, Head of Supreme Muslim Council, Amin Al-Husseini is appointed Head of Supreme Muslim Council (1922-1937) [vi] . He is hugely disappointed by the end of the Ottoman Empire under Ataturk. Husseini becomes fanaticized by the idea that he must restore the lost Islamic Empire. He vows to fight all Muslim seculars.
1922, Jerusalem Capital, Amin Al-Husseini implements restoration of Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem [vii] . He has the Dome gold-plated for the first time. Thereafter, Jerusalem takes on more importance as Holy Muslim site in the eyes of the Arab World.
1928, Husseini Joins Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood established in Egypt by Hassan El Banna [viii] in 1928. Amin Al-Husseini becomes a central member and ideological inspiration [ix] for the Muslim Brotherhood. Mother organization for today’s Egyptian Islamic Jihad and Hamas [x] . The Muslim Brotherhood preaches Wahhabi Islam [xi] , which justifies violent means to rid the ‘Muslim world’ of its non-Islamic element. It envisions a Pan-Islamic Empire, where strict Islamic law rules over all.
1929, Hebron Massacre, Amin Al-Husseini organizes more riots in Palestine. He spreads false rumors to further turn the local Muslims against the Jews. Random murdering of Hebron Jews begins. Hebron Jewish community was over 2,000 years old.
1931, Founder of World Islamic Congress, Amin Al-Husseini starts to build his own political base. He preaches Islamic unity and creates the World Islamic Congress in 1931 [xii] .
1933, Hitler Finds Arab Support. Arab Nazi political groups [xiv] spring up throughout Middle East: Young Egypt. Led by Muslim Brotherhood member Abdul Gamal Nasser (future Egyptian President). Young Egypt’s political slogan “One Folk, One Party, One Leader” is a direct translation from German of Nazi slogan. Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Led by Anton Saada (known as the Syrian Fuhrer)
1936, Husseini Meets Hitler’s banker, Francois Genoud, later known as the Swiss Banker of the Hitler’s Third Reich, travels to Palestine to meet Amin Al-Husseini for the first time. Their relationship will continue well into the 1960’s.
1936, Palestine Riots Weapon of Choice Suicide Squads Muslim Leaders assassinated. Amin Al-Husseini is main organizer of riots. He organizes suicide squads against the local authorities. Applies Nazi methodology of “systematic extermination” of any Arab suspected of less than total loyalty to Pan-Islamic vision of Muslim Brotherhood.
Any “non-Islamic” element is a threat to his Pan-Islamic vision.
Many Muslim and Christian Palestinian intellectual leaders and clerics assassinated for protesting Husseini’s Islamic terror.
1936-1938. Murdered by Husseini’s men: Sheikh Daoud Ansari ( Imam of Al Aqsa Mosque), Sheikh Ali Nur el Khattib (Al Aqsa Mosque), Sheikh Nusbi Abdal Rahim (Council of Muslim Religious Court), Sheikh Abdul el Badoui (Acre, Palestine), Sheikh El Namouri (Hebron), Nasr El Din Nassr (Mayor of Hebron). Between Feb. 1937 and Nov 1938, Eleven (11) Mukhtars (community leaders) and their entire families slain by Amin al Husseini’s men.
1937, On Hitler’s Payroll, Amin Al-Husseini visits Jerusalem German Consul. He meets SS Hauptschanfuehrer A.Eichman and SS Oberscherfuehrer H. Hagen to discuss “the Jewish question”. [xviii] Amin Al-Husseini subsequently receives financial and military aid from Nazi Germany. [xix] [xx]
1941, Mufti Joins Hitler In Jihad against Britain, Amin Al-Husseini arrives in Rome, where he meets fascist leader Benito Mussolini, the genocidal butcher of Ethiopians in Africa. Mussolini vows to help the Palestinian cause against the Jews. From Rome, Husseini declares Fatwa-Jihad [xxi] against Britain. He preaches the notion of Pan-Islamism, with vision of Muslim unity to further his cause.
1941, Husseini-Tulfah, Iraqi Pro-nazi coup. Amin Al-Husseini instigates a pro-nazi coup in Baghdad, Iraq. Kharaillah Tulfah is his right-hand man. Tulfah is Saddam Hussein’s mentor and uncle. Germany sends weapons and aircrafts to Husseini. Coup fails.
1941, European Jews Must Not Make It To Palestine. Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution. Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941, Christian Serbian Genocide, Husseini’s Personal Project 300,000 Non-Muslim Deaths.
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
1942, 10,000 Children Die, Amin Al-Husseini intervenes personally with Nazi High Command to block Red Cross offer of exchanging 10,000 Jewish children for Nazi prisoners of war. They will die in Hitler’s gas chambers. [xxviii]
You all really need to learn about Islam and the NAZIs... put down the liberalized BS History books you are reading and go to the sources, Islamic, Jewish and German, untill then you all know just about nothing as to the real facts of this part of world history.
Arafat Speaks On Amin Al-Husseini
“I was one of his troops.”
Yasser Arafat was interviewed by Al Sharq Al Awsat (London Arabic Daily) and reprinted in Palestinian daily Al Quds on August 2, 2002:
“We are not Afghanistan… We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin Al-Husseini?… There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, when they considered him an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 War and I was one of his troops.”
(Translation found on Palestinian Media Watch web site.)
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ … tml#_edn22
Now you all can continue on in your lil la la liberal land fantasy world.Thought Hitler for one tried murder as negotiation. But it still seems to be the supreme peace process.
You may remember that Hitler and Germany lost the war. They lost because America and the allies relentlessly bombed them and killed it citizens. Funny how that works, if its murder then too bad, don't start none and there wont be none.
Guess that's why Muslims have military bases in every state of the union and prosecuting wars in five of them. Oh I forget. We have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here.
"So prepare, say a pray'r,
Send the word, send the word to beware.
We'll be over, we're coming over,
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there."It would be over a lot quicker if the military wasn't hamstrung by the compassionate left. War is about killing the enemy not reasoning with them.
Why don't you just nuke everybody and get it over with. You should be quite happy with yourself.
Why would anyone have to be nuked? I know, you ran out of anyway else to prove the point you thought you were making.
Building the autobahn was another, but thanks for proving that Hitler did use socialist ideas. History is a bitch.
He's not alone in using socialist ideas, still doesn't make him one does it?
You said that there was nothing that Hitler did that was socialist, you don't seem to recall the things you say. I never said Hitler was a socialist I just pointed out that you were wrong.
Actually, having time to give that statement a bit more thought. Are you saying that the Roman Empire were socialists then?
After all they built some great roads in Europe, roads that lasted far longer than the Roman Empire did.
They built them for military, not social reasons, pretty much as Hitler built the Autobahns, well he didn't actually build them, they were well under-way before he came to power. He just saw the value of them.I understand, it takes a while to log in and out of accounts.
What are you implying?
I was actually watching the TV.Your comment about taking time to log in and out of accounts.
Fascism is corporations that exploit socialist government for their own private profits. Take Obamacare for instance.
It would be nice if you would reply to a message so others could be sure who you are talking to. And yes, I have heard of drone warfare and would love to see more of it. In case you don't understand my point let me make it perfectly clear. I want to kill the enemy and any who harbor them.
If you don't know who I am talking to can't help you. So I can assume you want to kill me.
I don't want to kill you, and all that is needed to help me would be to reply to a post. Can't be that hard, just hit reply.
Sorry I don't engage in private conversations, us and them and all that.
What are you talking about? This is all on a public site so hitting reply wouldn't be anymore private than what we are doing.
I don't talk to one I talk to all. At any rate are you sure you should be talking to the enemy.
There is no negotiation.I see, are you my enemy? If so then you are correct I will not negotiate.
My theory is the problem with right wing Floridians is too much fluoride in the water.
TM, I can't find a place to reply to your comment. When I said last night that something weird happened when I tried to reply, I meant in terms of a glitch. The system wouldn't let me. It just said flag, less, report etc. I haven't reported you, or flagged you. I was talking about a glitch in the system. In terms of where I stand on the Israel issue, it's where I've always stood. I believe both sides have the right to exist and the right to live in peace, with territory of their own.
Okay, Hollie.
Sorry. I thought you were reporting me for something and was curious as to what is all.No, not at all, we might disagree fundamentally but it doesn't mean I want to report or flag you. These forums are a place to air our views. Last night I had to reply to you in another thread, because of the glitch. That's what I meant by had to 'reply to you here.' Had to do it again tonight when I said 'can't find a place to reply to your comment.
Well that sucks... I rather enjoy the banter.
I will try to keep up if we switch threads for answers.
I knew I felt a lil confused last nite...Cheeky
I did too, but I put that down to that extra glass of red, for medicinal purposes of course.
"Palistine was givin back to the jews as recompense for Islams participation with the NAZIs in slaughtering jews."
Palestine is the home of the worlds oldest living Christians.....how does that compute?
And that is BS anyway.
Ole Herzel was given a map, and they said "Pick a spot". He chose Palestine, and that was the end of life for the people living there.
Had nothing to do with recompense...because if that was the case, you would owe the Iroqouis Indians your home!you just fly all over the map don't you.
I wouldn't even bring up American Indians if I were you... you want to see you American Socialism in action... just take a look at the reservation... that is what all your Govt asst. does for a people.It's not "gvt assistance", it's apartheid!
Just as the Likud gvt is doing to the Palestinians.
Just as certain Muslims in Africa do to African Christians.
Just as White South Africans did to the Native Africans.
You can dress it up all you like,excuse it by past injustice, whatever you do.....it is still wrong and unjustifiable and Man's inhumanity to man.Excuse me?
Indians are free to go where-ever they choose and do what-ever they want...
You are lost.
The only thing keeping them on the reservation these days is the entitlement enslavement mentallity that the American Left has drummed into them. They have been stripped of all pride and dignity, and enslaved through the chains of economic slavery.
It is sad actually.What's sad is how some people really understand nothing.
Nothing of history, nothing of loss, nothing of desperation.
How nice to have all the answers sown up, and all the comforts of life to spout them in.
The wild beauty that was America has become a genetically engineered/chemically altered warm bath.
lovemychris, you sound like juvenile...
"Shall we choose Palestine or Argentine? We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will determine both these points."
The Jewish State
By Theodor Herzl
(1896)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … rzl2b.html
Here's Tom Friedman's take today on the Israel-Palestine-US situation
Israel: Adrift at Sea Alone
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: September 17, 2011
I’VE never been more worried about Israel’s future. The crumbling of key pillars of Israel’s security — the peace with Egypt, the stability of Syria and the friendship of Turkey and Jordan — coupled with the most diplomatically inept and strategically incompetent government in Israel’s history have put Israel in a very dangerous situation.
Palestinians See U.N. Bid as Their Most Viable Option (September 18, 2011)
This has also left the U.S. government fed up with Israel’s leadership but a hostage to its ineptitude, because the powerful pro-Israel lobby in an election season can force the administration to defend Israel at the U.N., even when it knows Israel is pursuing policies not in its own interest or America’s.
More here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/opini … amp;st=cseHere's what else Friedman said years ago:
"...Mr. Sharon has the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat under house arrest in his office in Ramallah, and he's had George Bush under house arrest in the Oval Office. Mr. Sharon has Mr. Arafat surrounded by tanks, and Mr. Bush surrounded by Jewish and Christian pro-Israel lobbyists, by a vice president, Dick Cheney, who's ready to do whatever Mr. Sharon dictates."
Not only have the Zionists occupied Palestine, they have occupied the USA.
Bout time for this crappola to end.
Jews, Arabs, Americans....we can all get together to throw those Zionists bums out! From wherever they hold sway.Arafat could have ended this a decade ago... and that is the FACT that cannot be over-come by you Leftists.
Arafat and the Islams choose terrorism over peace, remember he walked away from all they wanted when israel offered it, and the new president of Palistine is Abbas, who is the former advisor to Arafat who urged Arafat to walk away from the deal.
Even Clinton knows this is a fact... everyone but you Leftists see the truth of Islam wanting to annihilate Israel.
So again I repeat... Friedman is an idiot.
TM wrote:
"Islam's role in WWII, thier founding of the Bosnian and mioddle eastern SS sqads, and their silent partnership with hitler to sieze and slaughter Jews, is well documented and cannot be denied."
My reply:
As a Christian, I live in a very big glass house, and would not wish to condemned 1 billion people for the crimes and atrocities of those relatively few who committed crimes because their religion, in part, inspired them to do so.
TM wrote
"I would have thought you would know that bit of history.?..
And for someone who claims Greek status, you sure are forgiving of the Devshirme... you know the Jannassarrie corp?... remember that lil tax upon the greek people by the Ottoman Empire and Islam? All those greek children stolen, perverted and destroyed... lil children, used up and spit out by that barbaric religion.
Probrably not."
My reply:
Alas, TM, if only I was familiar with such atrocities through the 4 years I studied history at university. Unfortunately, as a person of Greek decent, I have a more intimate knowledge of such events. My Grandparents on my mother's side where born in Asia Minor, in what is modern day Turkey. During the beginning of the last century, the Turks were purging the large Greek communities and rounded up all the males in my Grandmother's village, including her brothers.
Her younger brother, just a few years old, saw his older siblings being taken away, and naturally wanted to be go off to play with them and not be left behind. He came out of hiding to join them... and was also taken. He, like his brothers, were never to be seen again.
My grandparents were naturally reluctant to talk about these events, but i remember them cautioning me about hating all Turks for these crimes. If I was to do so, if i was to paint every single Turk (then or now), or every single Muslim I have met or have not met (then or now) with such a wide brush.. not only would I have to ignore my grandparent's wise counsel, not only would i have to hypocritically ignore atrocities committed by followers of all religions throughout history (including mine); not only would I have to throw away the wisdom offered, and the love demanded, by my Christian faith, but I would put my own self in peril....
for such xenophobia, such wide and all encompassing paranoia and hate, could leave me like that old US Senator from Wisconsin I read about in school... tired, broken, drunk, discredited, and left to wonder why the world have evolved but he hadn't."Bethleem) is a city Palestinians in the West Bank and is a center of Palestinian cultural and tourism industry. Population of 29,019 inhabitants (2005). The city has an important meaning for Christians because it is believed to be the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth. Rachel’s tomb which is important in the Jewish religion is situated on the outskirts of this city. Bethlehem is also home to the largest Palestinian Christian communities in the Middle East."
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=8012
The IDF bombed the oldest Christian church/cave during Operation Cast Lead.Native American Voices
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/native … /nav2.htmlGordon Duff agrees with Arthur Koestler, author of The 13th Tribe!
"There is, however, a historical record of a people from Russia called the Khazars who converted to Judaism and created a great empire nearly as large as the United States. The “Jewish areas” of Russia and Europe were the eastern portion of Khazaria.
One could assume that all Jews in Russia or Poland, just as Helen Thomas said, were from there and had never been from Judea. We can prove Jews lived there as Khazars. We cannot prove Jews moved there from Judea."
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/09/22 … -whatever/Bibiguns is from Lithuania, for gods sakes....just like my grandpa Julius was!
So--how's he lay claim to Palestine?The UN has made a decision on how human rights are secured in the world: through national self-determination. Jews were not safe in Europe; Europeans did not consider them really European.
Yes, and even WE turned them away!
My only problem is, they are now doing onto others just what was done onto them.(which is why I believe the Zionists are, in fact, Nazi's)
And as in EVERY counry...it' the LEADERS who are the problem! BUT, the people vote them in. *allegedly*...who knows what shenanigans go on behind the scenes.
****
"Ami Ayalon, former Israeli Shin Bet (its internal security service) head backs Palestinian Statehood, saying:
“After voting for the Palestinian state, Israel should start negotiations over borders….We should realize that the Palestinian move came due to the lack of other options.”
He added that Israel has itself to blame for its growing isolation and believes it’s essential to formulate a new policy.
Enlightened millions globally agree, including growing numbers of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
In fact, “most Israelis actually want the Palestinian initiative to go ahead and to succeed.”
They believe achieving it is the best way to “save the ‘Jews only State’ from a demographic meltdown” because Palestinian numbers are growing faster than Jewish ones.
Polls show Israelis clearly favor Palestinian statehood. Not only that, “they actually love” the idea.
Opposing it are Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman, other political hard-liners, extremist settlers, diaspora Zionists, and the powerful Israeli Lobby."
****
"Opposing it are Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman, other political hard-liners, extremist settlers, diaspora Zionists, and the powerful Israeli Lobby."
--and apparently, the US gvt. Geeeeee, wonder why? Ooo, gotta sneeze... *AIPAC*Who are "the Zionists" to you? (What is your definition of them)
Are Zionists exterminating millions of Palestinians?
You have a pattern of making false equivalencies, almost always equating Jews with people who have committed far worse crimes.You make a lot of equivalencies yourself...as if what Isreal is doing is not so bad...IT IS.
I want the here and now horror on Palestinians to stop. Just as the horror against Jews was stopped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPYWere Palestinians herded up in concentration camps and killed by the millions?
Are there efforts to round up Arab citizens of Israel and kill them all?
Is Israel marching into neighboring countries in an effort to kill off all the Palestinians living there?
You make the pro-Palestinian side look terribly foolish and racist when you make false equivalencies like this (just like TMMason does for the pro-Israeli side). Peace efforts are stymied by one-sided perspectives promulgated by people like the two of you.Fine, then don't listen to me, or ask me any more questions.
I'm sick of having to apologize for calling Israel out!
They are brutally mistreating another ethnicity. I think it's BAD, no matter what was done to them in the past.
Period, end of story!Evasions of your outlandish claims and your black-and-white thinking. I'm come to expect no less, but still (probably futilely) hope for something different.
I will say the same for you.
There is such a thing as right and wrong.
And you cannot keep playing the victim card forever. It is not the reality of 2011.Whenever I bring up what is being done to the Palestinians, you bring up the Holocaust.
You won't admit Israel is a brutal occupier, that is causing horrendous suffering.
You say, "Palestinians are wrong too", "What is done to them isn't as bad as what was done to the Jews". etc
So,what should be done? Let Israel have it all on their terms because of Hitler?
You don't see the parallels of their treatment.
You down-play the wrongs done to them.
All because of the past. IMOWhat. Are. You. Talking. About?
I always bring up the Holocaust? You're confusing me with someone else. The only thing that I've pointed out is when *you* insanely say the Israelis have something along the lines of the Nazis, who expressly butchered around 12 million people for the sake of racial purity, you only betray your own petty prejudices.
And stop putting words in my mouth.Your words:
"Were Palestinians herded up in concentration camps and killed by the millions?
Are there efforts to round up Arab citizens of Israel and kill them all?
Is Israel marching into neighboring countries in an effort to kill off all the Palestinians living there?"
Is this not the Holocaust?Who brought up comparing Israelis to Nazis?
Like I said, I was proving that your comparison of the Israeli goals and death toll to the Nazi goals and death toll is ridiculous. Because it is.
These stupid, circular arguments of yours remind me of an adage: don't argue with fools, because from far away no one can tell the difference. And with that, I bid you a pleasant Friday afternoon.Well, since LL called me names and left, is there anyone else who can tell me just what ARE Israel's goals?
And you can't understand it? Israel's goal is to live, to exist. Just so simple. To exist as a country of Jews, where a Jew will not be cursed or teased just for being a Jew. Where Jews can live and create. Almost every piece of nowadays technology came from Israel- think of Intel, messengers, cellphones, voicemail, picture chips in cellphone cameras, medical technologies, what's not!
Israel is a country that made a tremendous progress within 60 years from a backward desert with little to no trees (once a blooming land, but emptied by numerous invasions) to a forpost of science and culture. It the the ONLY faithful alien of USA in that region, do you know this?
Israel NEVER in the history ever attacked first anyone. It was attacked and it is defending itself.
Arabs living in Gaza are not that miserable as you think. Here are the links to their own websites, I posted it for you before too, but you keep ignoring this.
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/201 … arian-aid/
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/201 … estinians/
here's the original site: http://paltoday.ps/arabic/News-64161.htmlIf that is the case, then why have they continued decade after decade to encroach on more Palestinian land? Recruit Europeans to come there, as if they are entitled to kick people out of their homes?
Why can't they just live with what they had already been given?
There's a name for that strategy..it's called "facts on the ground". Their goal is to have so many Settlers on Palestinian land, that the Palestinians will have nothing left.
That is hardly Just Living.The only recruiting Israel does is for the world's Jews to move there. You might not like that, but Israel is the only country that can guarantee their safety as Jews in the future. (Just about every other country where Jews have lived has eventually turned on them as an all-too-familiar scapegoat)
Plenty of non-Palestinian Arabs have moved to Palestinian lands, too. Even Yasser Arafat was born Egyptian. Palestinians living in lots of other countries can probably move to Palestine without much fuss. You just don't acknowledge that because it doesn't fit into your narrative.
Neither side is going to successfully argue that only their side is entitled to the Levant. And by trying to do so anyway you are only prolonging their misery.You want me to believe the Jews are scapegoats here?
When 330 members of OUR gvt agrees to back Israel no matter what?
When a person in a high-level position wants to make aid to Israel a permanet part of OUR budget?(Eric Cantor)
When he tells the president of Israel he will keep an eye on the American president for him?
The problem is not that they have too little power, they have too much!
"Facts on the ground" is exactly what Israel is trying to create.
The entire peace process is nothing but a time-buying tactic to allow settlers to snag whatever they want in the West Bank before annexation and the expulsion of the Arabs."--a blogger
It has always been about ridding Palestine of the Arabs.IMO
And Israel has been breaking International Law with their on-going settlements for years.
Yet--no one does anything about it....and you want to say Israel is a victim?
I don't see it that way.
And the one who needs to back off is Israel. IMO
The CIA abruptly yanked all of its advertisements this month from metro Detroit's largest Arab-American newspaper because it ran an Associated Press report that said the intelligence agency was helping spy on Muslim Americans.
But on Thursday, after inquiries from the Free Press, the CIA said it was resubmitting the ads to the Arab American News and regretted "any misunderstandings."
The decision to remove the ads concerned some local Arab Americans, who said the agency was trying to squash criticism through its money.
"When a government agency that uses tax dollars tries to muzzle people, stifle debate or control the press, I have a problem with it," said Osama Siblani, the paper's publisher.
After the Free Press contacted the CIA and Gravity Media, the company it works with to place recruiting ads in the newspaper, the agency said Thursday it wanted to place ads again.
"The CIA has a long history of advertising with the Arab American News, and we regret any misunderstandings in this instance," CIA spokesman Preston Golson said Thursday. "Freedom of the press is one of the many American values that CIA officers work to defend every day."
On Sept. 8, Gravity Media contacted the Arab American News and said it must immediately pull all the online CIA ads, Siblani said.
On Sept. 12, Gravity Media told the Arab American News it was "ordered by the CIA to pull the ads because of the AP story we ran on the CIA cooperating with the New York Police Department to spy on Muslims," Siblani said.
"They thought ... we can be intimidated," he said.
Siblani said he was especially disturbed considering that he played a key role in helping the CIA make inroads into metro Detroit's Arab-American communities. As part of its recruiting efforts, the agency now helps fund 13 Arab-American groups in metro Detroit and sponsored an Arab-American dinner in Dearborn in 2009 with then-CIA Director Leon Panetta.
"For them to do this after all we have done to introduce them to the community is beyond imagination," Siblani said.
Siblani said he's now mulling whether to accept the CIA's resubmission of the ads.
http://www.freep.com/article/20110923/N … -newspaperAnd peace is stymied by Bibiguns and the rotten mean selfish settlers, who are recruited and PAID to steal land from Palestinians and some-how claim it as their own. They are the racists. IMO
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo … nists_1_4/The Day the Zionist Settlers Paid Us a Visit
http://avoicefrompalestine.wordpress.co … s-a-visit/
"All Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal under international law, and while many Israelis claim that the moving of 5,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip caused a huge rift in Israeli society, the move was necessary for compliance with the law. Many settlers who had colonized the Gaza Strip were then moved into new settlements in the West Bank, thereby nullifying any compliance that may have been achieved by moving out of Gaza.
Israeli forces then bombed and demolished all of the buildings of the Gaza settlements, rendering them as toxic dumps where the residents of Gaza are afraid to go due to the potential health risks of exposure to asbestos and other chemicals.
Although both the international community and the United Nations have condemned Israel for its settlement of civilians on occupied territories, no international body has attempted to enforce the rulings."
Now THAT is crazy. Why is the whole world afraid of Israel?Promiss Land is Israeli's for 3000 years. Arabs came there recently for work (most of them). Religion invaded the land by Turks and destroyed everything, left wasted land. They use the trees for producing coal. Since when this territory is Arabs? Do you know what is wrong with siding lies? Either misinformed students or old communists. Have you ever been in Israel? Every thief now want Israel since Israeli developed it beyond the measure.
"Promiss Land is Israeli's for 3000 years"
Promised by who?Your comments are ridiculous. Arabs didn't recently arrive in Israel looking for work. The situation is far more complex than that and I really don't see how using trees for coal is relevant, if this is even true. The situation in the Middle East is worrying enough, not only does it affect the citizens of Palestine and Israel but stability throughout the world depends on what happens there. Keep it real.
oh, grandma have you been in Israel?
to lovemychris, by God.Given the treatment I get by Israel supporters here, I'm quite sure I would not be welcome.
errr, bytheway.....which God?The Annunaki of Nibiru?
I read all of Zachariah Sitchins Earth Chronicles.....
The Elohim.... Had babies with Earth women.....the Gods of old.
So--who you for, Enki or Enlil??
You are such a liar again. I myself personally invited you to go to visit Israel. I told you that I'll ask my friends there to give you a tour there, so that you'll see with your own eyes what a beautiful, peaceful and friendly country it is. You are welcome at least to read my hubs about Israel. But, oh no, it is not interesting to you. All you are able to do is to bash Israel, blinded by your hatred and bias.
Nope..blinded by the harsh, inhumane treatment of the Palestinians going on 60 years now.
Which I invite YOU to consider, but you won't.
It's like this: When people say they hate America, I know they don't hate all Americans, they hate what people do in our name.
Same goes for Israel.
And until it is acknowledged and CEASED, I will continue to speak on it.When will you ask that the Gazans CEASE their bombing of Israel, and acknowledge its right to exist?
It seems that if you were really interested in a peaceful outcome for all parties (not everything they want and currently demand, which are irreconcilable) then you'd be more fair about it.I'm sorry--but Israel does 50 times the bombing and killing...maybe 100 times. Maybe even 1000.
You want the Palestinians to say it's OK that their land was given to other people, and they were thrown off to live in tents? Would you?
Israel needs to stop the settlements number one. That would show a good faith effort. Then the Palestinians must be given their land back! If it's not too late already. They are walled in away from each other...like little pockets of prisons...it's really cruel and Nazi-like.
I wonder if the Israeli's even know what's going on?Palestinian does not exist, no culture no state. Being born in somewhere does not mean they must be terrorists.
Israel has right to build where they want, it is their land.
Philistines (palestinians) has culture, language and Arabs religion let them go to Arabia. Philistines do not exist, remember giant who was killed by David? They always harassed Israel. The spirit of their jumped on them. They were always killers. It is Cain spirit. There is no Palestinians evidence in excavations. How can someone listen invaders, killers, murderors? One day you will worship to Allah by force if you do not listen.More by-proxy death threats from the religiously impaired has nothing to contribute to peace between Israel and it's neighbours that I can see.
"Israel has right to build where they want, it is their land."
No, it isn't. Because the Bible told you so doesn't make it so.
And some Yuppie from Europe does not get to come and kick a family out who has been there since before Jesus Christ.Another ridiculous, non sensical rant. Palestinians don't exist, of course they do. You do not sound like a man who wants peace. Make your mind up, they have a culture or they don't. You talk complete rubbish. I've lost patience.
More distortions. Unsurprising, consider you've passed off lies as quotes from Ben Gurion, too. Have you no shame?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2 … 48-present
It's about 5.3 times as many Palestinian deaths as israeli."consider you've passed off lies as quotes from Ben Gurion,"
Show me where.
And I do NOT believe your stats. There is no way that only 5.3 times as many Palestinians die. Operation Cast Lead killed what...1,500 Palestinians? Where are the 300 Jews to match that?
oh, grandma have you been in Israel?
to lovemychris, by God
Makes even less sense than you former post. Gobaldygook!Uneducated. Coal always come from wood, organic matter one burned with very little oxygen. It was old time process. In the Turkey they did not have enough technology to take it from the ground.
Makes perfect sense. She talks about things she has no idea about. she has to go and visit Israel and then maybe, maybe she'll be able to see the reality.
V Uhri :You make assumptions, I don't bash Israel actually, I want to see both the Israelis and the Palestinians live in peace, with territory of their own (Try reading my previous posts in this thread). Your friend talks about reality, there is a reality for Israel and a reality for Palestine. Hence, my usage of the word complex.
I thought it was ridiculous that you bring the situation in the Middle East down to coal and Arabs recently moving there. Decades of strife in that region can't just be attributed to coal and a recent migration to the area. So, yes, I still think your comments are ridiculous. Perhaps you are the uneducated one?
I'm sure your intentions are good, but I really do not need to be told that God loves me, nor do I need your attempts at salvation. This is yet another comment I find ridiculous because it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Reu Vera; You mention visiting Israel, why don't you try living there day in day out for some real perspective. There are, in fact, Israelis that want a two state solution, they're sick of war and they think there are some perfectly logical reasons for a two state solution. Given your link United with Israel, I think it's unlikely that you have read widely, by widely I mean, try expand your reading matter so you have a better understanding of ALL the issues and all the perspectives. So, instead of me talking a minute to investigate the information you have posted, why don't you take several weeks to in attempting to gain a more balanced view. I will however, check out your link, so thanks for posting that.
You also mention hatred, this is interesting because I do not hate Israelis or Palestinians. Can you say the same? Disagreement does not equate to hatred. Perhaps you should invest in a good dictionary and you will be the on that is better informed. Btw she has a name and it's Hollie.I think she did live there for a while (I'm pretty sure I read that).
Ok, fair enough. Then I take that back and apologize for it, but I think you may have guessed what I was trying to get across.
yep, I lived there for 10 years (1991-2001) and going back again in future.
-Hollie, if you'd taken an effort to check my profile, you'd learn that I am an Israeli, I actually lived there and going back to live there in future. I live in USA because I married an American, but I hold dual citizenship and visit Israel often, I have a family there. So, I know the subject first hand.
- I didn't know that Vladimir addressed you, since I did not read every page on this thread. I presumed that he was talking about LMC.LL, pointed out that you lived there, so I apologized and took that back. I didn't check out your profile because I responded instantly to what you'd said about my hatred for Israel, which is completely untrue. So between me not reading your profile and you thinking you were addressing LMC, well, no wonder it let to confusion.
Not that I'm saying LMC hates Israel, I think I need to clear that up before any more confusion is created.
I will. She very obviously loathes Israel, and it's made clear every time she fabricates numbers, embellishes every Israeli crime and ignores every Palestinian one, and even relies on deliberately distorted quotes to support her views. About half of her posts bash Israel, and they're littered with untruths.
What's particularly galling is that she pretends she doesn't hate Jews (even though she talks about "kosher nostra" and "the Synagogue of Satan", and more). At least TMMason and Vladimir are open about their hatred of Muslims.I know LMC has very strong views on the subject. I'd taken LMC's views as challenges to the far right in Israel and their ambitions. But I also know there's a center ground in Israel as well, who appear to be sick to death of what is happening. and want some resolution to this decades old strife and turmoil. I never post links to the things I read on the internet, to be honest, because I think that so much of the news is manipulated that there's virtually no such thing as a reliable source anymore. I do read what others have posted but I don't take anything as gospel.
I think the other problem, is that when people debate in forums we literally have to take each sentence as black and white because that's how it is presented. We can't see each others gestures and we just don't know each other and it can lead huge misunderstandings and a complete inability to see where the other is coming from. Take my exchange with ReuVera yesterday, I reacted to ReuVera, very strongly I might add, when ReuVera believed she was addressing someone else entirely because she hadn't read all the previous posts and I suggested she should try living in Israel when in fact she'd lived there for years, because I hadn't read her profile. Laughable now, but illustrates how we can arrive at this place where we have completely misinterpreted where the other is coming from. Sorry, I'm waffling now. That's just my take on it all.
It's ok, Hollie. But now you know that I am speaking from first-hand experience and I actually lived (and live) it.
I do, and it's always been my stance that both sides deserve to live in peace. Sometimes, that gets misconstrued, I'm not suggesting by you, we've cleared that up I know, but that's when I react.
But you do not live the Palestinian side. You have no idea what that is like from the comfort of your so-called God-Given superiority.
You are SO misinformed!
Will you have a minute to take from your open hatred and watch this video?
http://unitedwithisrael.org/the-video-t … ans-crazy/
Give it a rest.
<A FEE IS CHARGED TO ACCESS THIS LEVEL>
If you wish to proceed, go to <reserved>.You have also confused me too Paradigmsearch. I know, that's not difficult!
You, cheeky cat you, good job I don't take you too seriously!
LMC, I think Para is in the business of winding up. But kind of in a harmless way
Ottoman Empire - See Wikipedia:
a Turkish empire that lasted from 27 July 1299 to 29 October 1923.
There is nothing mention in history about Palestinians. The word Palestine was British joking name for Philistine.Well, if there's nothing in history about Palestinians they clearly don't exist do they. Except they do exist, so take a moment and get your head around that. Instead of telling me that God lives me, tell the Palestinians or does your god not recognize all people.
And by the way, if this is true, and that wouldn't surprise me, then the English have something to be ashamed of.
Hollie, wrong. Arabs exist as well as Christians exists and other minority. But not Palestinians. They just want to destroy Israel and want have all things. They shell 1200 Soviet-Rushian Katushas Rockets to Israel, without reason not mentioned suicide bombers, even children. They had massive wedding ceremony with 12 years old girls - pedophilia and you approve to replace Israel? Where have you been? Don't you do home work ?
Where have you been? At what point did I say Palestine should replace Israel?I hardly think your helping any cause by suggesting that all Palestinians are pedophiles. Israel want to be recognized by Palestine, and to some degree they have been, albeit not as a Jewish State but that opens up a whole new can of worms with regards to the refugees amongst other things. At some point this situation has got to give, you may not want to recognize the Palestinians but it doesn't change the reality in that they do exist, just as the Israelis do.
I'm with you, Hollie. (Though recognition of Israel hasn't happened yet but presumably would in a peace deal; Hamas is tougher since their charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel)
The thing you quickly realize is that those who solely advocate for one side in the conflict rely on distortions, exaggerations and lies in order to beatify the side they're on and demonize the other. It's those black-and-white distortions that lead significant numbers on each side to believe they're the only ones who deserve any land.I know, and that's what's really sad about it all, because in the meantime we have the Palestinians living in rubble as they do and we still have rockets sent into Israel and old lady's getting blown to bits at bus stops. It just hurts all involved. Even more worrying, is the situation with Israel and its neighbors. It feels like the whole region is about to reach another boiling point, and it's frightening.
The funny thing is that Israel is NOT against Palestinian state. Israel IS for two states for two peoples. Did you listen to Netanyahu speech in UN on September 23?
Why do Arabs have to talk about talking, negotiate about negotiating? Do you remember how Arafat threw the pen and left the room, leaving Clinton and Rabin and the rest with dropped jaws? when Rabin was giving to Arafat more than they asked for in lands. They don't need peace! Why don't you see it?
Had Israel ever stared any war? Had Israel ever attacked first? Gosh!I agree with you on some things in this post, and disagree with others.
I agree most Israelis want a 2-state solution. But the current government coalition really doesn't. As you know, Bill Clinton has a pretty honest read on the Israel-Palestinian situation, and he recently placed the (current) blame on Netanyahu:
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts … ce_process
I am fully aware that for decades, the situation was reversed and the Palestinians, especially under Arafat, had no interest in peace. Arafat abandoned Oslo when it was being negotiated under Ehud Barak; that same deal that Barak offered would be accepted today by Abbas, if you believe Clinton (I have no reason not to).
About Israel attacking first: the only time I know that's been the case was 1967 (all other times, the Arab countries attacked first). That's probably why the pre-1967 lines are the basis of final negotiations.
Believe me, I have little sympathy for Palestinians losing a huge chunk of the territory they would have had in 1948 had they agreed to the land split. I also have little sympathy for the Gazans who chose to vote in a party that would make attacking and eradicating Israel the thrust of its platform over taking care of its constituents. But that doesn't mean it's not Netanyahu that's running interference on a peace deal now.The mentioned fact is correct and it was pretty much provoked situation. I won't go into details, read it here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … s/mf6.html
I know that you mostly support Israel and I respect you for this greatly.
many people do not know or don't want to recognize the fact that when Israel was proclaimed as a country, Jews were pleading with Arabs who lived there not to leave, to stay and build a new country together. Only a small number of Arabs stayed. The rest left, because they were ordered to leave by their leaders under the promise that they'll return soon to get everything.Yes, there was a provocation but your claim was about actual attacks, and in the 6-day War Israel attacked first.
I actually have long had respect for Israel, actually long before I converted to Judaism. (I was raised Catholic, and actually still called myself nominally Christian when I lived in Israel in 1994) In many ways, it really is a light unto the nations, and earned an undue bad rap for most of its existence. My arguments for Israel, which are, by the way, 100% secular and not religious in nature, despite the fact that I am Jewish now, have really not changed at all over the last couple of decades. I don't think anything has changed at all that would argue against Israel's right to exist and defend itself.
I have, however, noticed that there is a change in Israel. The relatively recent rise of the ultra-Orthodox's political power, and the recent political exploitation of the ex-Soviet Jews, have changed things a lot since I lived there (maybe since you did, too, I don't know). The ultra-Orthodox and settlers have both become bullies, to non-Jewish minorities and politically, as well, which is unfortunate since neither group are the wellspring of the many technological innovations Israel is known for. As a religious but not ethnic Jew, I'm obviously going to side with those Jews who embody Jewish values but don't treat Jewishness as a tribal affiliation in contrast to the Arabs.
To your last point, yes, that might have been true in some parts of Israel. In other parts, Arabs were kicked out. It was a complex situation. And yes, I know that Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and in the Palestinian territories, too. But two wrongs also don't make a right, either.
This continue to this day, too: many Jewish Israelis are welcoming and warm towards Arab Israelis, and many others are not. It's too difficult to generalize.I am recollecting that you've mentioned before that you converted. May I ask you, why did you do this?
You see, when I was growing in the Soviet Union, it was almost like a stigma to be Jewish (I wrote about it too in one of my hubs), then it became almost fashionable. Even now, many celebrities are digging out their long lost Jewish roots. Many people go to Judaism because of their spouses, or because they just came to it through lots of thinking. What was your reason? Maybe you just can redirect me to where you wrote about it (if you already wrote about it.)I don't think I have, but since that's off-topic (I'll let the anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish bigots duke it out here), what I'll do is leave you a comment on that Hub of yours.
ReuVera, this was not meant as a critisizm of Israel. I actually did listen to Netanyahu and I've also listened to Abbas. My comments are about the suffering of people on both sides in that region. My comments about an old ladie being blown up at a bus stop were relating to an Israeli woman.
Israel has started a war in the past yes. But, history is history, we are were we are now. They do need peace and so does Palestine. Peace.Hollie, Arabs and others are suffering by Arabs fault. Their religion wants to wipe out Israel. That's all. Suffering is consequences of sin. I did suffer under Soviets, so I moved out. Arabs should go to Arabia. We built city on desert they can do also. They had option to leave but Arabs like other countries better, since they have no freedom in their own country. Why don't you address that part?
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