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Atheists are superior to all religious people because....

  1. arthriticknee profile image86
    arthritickneeposted 6 years ago

    There is no Atheist text.

    This ensures Atheists can't manipulate the ambiguous writings from 2,000 - 3,000 years ago to justify their actions.

    As far as I am aware, no one has committed mass murder in there name of there being no God.

    The vast majority of modern religions have had countless atrocities committed by fundamentalists using religions texts as justification. I specifically refer to the two main trouble makers - Christians and Muslims - but do not limit the argument to these religions.

    I also recognize the good done in the name of these religions but one does wonder how many charitable acts it takes to atone for the crusades, daily activities in the West Bank and Gaza strip, and 9 / 11.

    Interpretation is the key element here. Most religious texts include so many contradictions that fundamentalists are free act as they wish then find an appropriate passage to back up their actions in the name of god.

    Your thoughts????

    1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
      Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Your theory is off a bit, To say there is no text specifically, There is no text advertised as such however if you read Mein Kampf you'll find an atheist cynical plan to manipulate and destroy religion (not just the Jews). Drawing on Pagan symbolism but to accomplish a political agenda, So there was at least one time in history that many atrocities were perpetrated not for atheism specifically but certainly by one who held his whole country in sway.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting story, not sure about the facts but you know what they say about a good story lol

        1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
          Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not sure about the facts of World War II or the Facts of Adolf Hitler? or Mein Kampf? The fact is in During Hitlers reign more Catholics, and Protestants were killed than the 6 million Jews in the camps. Not an interesting story that is history.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You are wrong.

            1. Bovine Currency profile image60
              Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Whether or not Hitler was an atheist, protestant, catholic, this is irrelevant to your debatable suggestion that Hitler was trying to destroy religion.

              You provide no evidence that hitler was an atheist.  If he was an atheist, so what.  Was the German army atheist?  You tell me.  Your candy floss theory is full of gaps.

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this
                1. Mitch Rapp profile image59
                  Mitch Rappposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Lets see, you defend incest and then Hitler, wow! You're special.

                  1. tantrum profile image61
                    tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You like to play dirty ,ha ? that talks a lot about you!
                    first- I never defend incest.
                    2- I'm not defending Hitler, just stating what BC says about Hitler & Atheism.
                    You're a very base human being

    2. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Do you know about Communism, Socailism, and Marxism, Idiologies that slaughtered millions in the 20th Cent.   

      Stalin, Moa, China, pol Pot, all atheists. All mass murderers.

      The 20th century, was a century of godless mass murder. How did you miss that?

      And lets not forget the atrocities that have been committed in the name of science also. Yes much murder has been done in the name of no god.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Add up all that death and it still doesn't come close to the deaths in the name of religion.

        Your correlation between Atheism and the above dictatorships is very loose.  Were these murders in the name of Atheism or is the atheism just a sideline?

        1. TMMason profile image74
          TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Whoa you better check your math there. Yes it does. there were more poeople kiiled in the 20th by Atheism, than Christianity has ever killed. And I am sure all religions together do not come close either.

          So thats wrong, I am serious do a lil math.

          And your argument about my corrolation ofd Atheism adn thoise regimes is a cop out of an answer to it.

          I am looking for numbers right now, may be gone a while, but will be back.

          And you can think about this while I look. There are more people on the earth right now than have ever lived throughout history. The 20th century involved hundred pf millions dying to Goidless regimes. So you may want to rethink you math. the 20th century was a horriffic godless slaughter.

          Now if Christians have to recognize their religions flaws and faults. Why not the Godless? Also you haven't spoken about those atrocities comitted in the name of science.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I never mentioned anything about the 20th Century, Mr. Calculass.  Sorry for missing the REALITY of humanity being defined by a mere 100 years!

            1. TMMason profile image74
              TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Are you for real. You said..."As far as I am aware, no one has committed mass murder in there name of there being no God.

              The vast majority of modern religions have had countless atrocities committed by fundamentalists using religions texts as justification. I specifically refer to the two main trouble makers - Christians and Muslims - but do not limit the argument to these religions" As in comparison to Atheism. Atheism has been around for a long time. And in the 20th century is excelled at slaughter. That is what you stated you don't see in regards to your precious Atheism./

              Your wrong yours Atheism has slaughtered millions, as the 20thj cetury proves in vived reality.

              1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Put words in my mouth one more time Mason and I will report you for slander.

                1. TMMason profile image74
                  TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  What slander are you talking about? You a lost lil man.

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Please give examples of this..

          1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
            Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The Communist Manifesto, Mao Little Red Book, Hitlers Mein Kampf, all outlined in there basic tenets the 'falseness of religion and deity' and the suppression of them.

            The deaths attributed to Nazi and communist from Stalins Purges and Hitlers election  in the 1930's through 1945 come out to a little over 60 million, (this is a conservative estimate as no exact numbers are available for Stalins purges and his internal murders during WWII) These numbers exceed the total known population est of the world in the 11th century AD when the crusades were at their height.

            1. 60
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              It would appear you haven't those books. See:

              "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." Hitler ~~ Mein Kampf.



              Do you have intimate knowledge of those deaths? What were the reasons they died or were killed, do you know? Considering that Hitler was doing the work of your Lord, do you think he did so in the name of your Lord or were there other reasons?

              Please break down those 60 million deaths in the categories or crimes for which they belong so that it does not appear as if you're just throwing out numbers?

              1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
                ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I don't think anyone needs "intimate knowledge" of these deaths; they're common knowledge. The people who died committed no crime; that is why some people are still so upset over things like the Holocaust and Stalin murders. *shrug* It ought to be easy to see that just because a psychopath THINKS his work is what God wants doesn't make it so. When someone doesn't understand the theory of relativity, we don't say that the theory is messed up...it's the understanding of the person that is messed up.

                Respectfully,
                Carmen

                1. 60
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  And, you know that for a fact? How do yo know that, are you intimate with the details of those deaths? Why exactly did they die?



                  The same then can be said about anyone making a claim for doing gods work, yes?



                  Agreed. Or, the person attempting to provide the understanding doesn't know what he's talking about.

                  1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
                    ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    "And, you know that for a fact? How do yo know that, are you intimate with the details of those deaths? Why exactly did they die?"

                    Yes. I do. And so does anyone with a brain (that includes you; I personally think you're just trying to make folks angry here). BUT If you are unaware of the holocaust and its innocent victims who died because Hitler ordered that they be killed for no good reasons, just go to the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C; that will give you the INTIMATE knowledge you seek. I've been there, and I've seen it; you could, if you've got the guts, also go visit a death camp; I haven't had the privilege of doing that. I believe you are already smart enough to know that, however, and are just trying to poke what you know to be a sensitive subject (for some) to incite forum excitement. That's cool.

                    "The same then can be said about anyone making a claim for doing gods work, yes?"

                    Indeed, but we can determine that some things are at least more productive than others. Hitler's interpretation of God's work isn't very productive, it's destructive. LOL.

          2. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Really?  Find me the census data back to the origins of human life and I will present the data.

      2. Stan Fletcher profile image76
        Stan Fletcherposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brilliant reply.

        1. Bovine Currency profile image60
          Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          1. Mitch Rapp profile image59
            Mitch Rappposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You are the master of verbal comebacks, aintcha?

            1. tantrum profile image61
              tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Only laughs for ignorant remarks !
              lol lol

              1. Mitch Rapp profile image59
                Mitch Rappposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol lol Using your logic lol  Seems to work!

            2. Bovine Currency profile image60
              Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Mitch, you and I in a battle of logic?  That really is funny!

              1. Mitch Rapp profile image59
                Mitch Rappposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So true, that's funny as hell! Do you want me to provide definitions of words for you also?

                1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                  Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yeah, could you?

                  1. Mitch Rapp profile image59
                    Mitch Rappposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Certainly! Which word do you need a definition for?

        2. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol

    3. Rod Marsden profile image86
      Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists are superior or can be in one fundamental area. An Atheist or Agnostic can see human population getting out of control and actually work out ways of doing something about it.

      Whereas some religious person might be trapped in their thinking by stuff that was written when humanity was smaller in number and needed bolstering, a non-religious person can see the environmental damage being done by a world population out of control and want to set rules and guide lines so the damage doesn't become irreversible. 


      1. TMMason profile image74
        TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        So contemplating or advocating population control, makes an atheist superior.

        No. Finding a way for all man to continue would be a great and admirable achievment.

        Killing some to save some would not be.

        Murder through abortion, population control methods, or plain murder, is never an admirable undertaking.

    4. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. wesleyacarter profile image59
        wesleyacarterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        i agree.

        atheism is as poisonous and hostile as any other religion, even moreso because it lacks tradition and values and is a purely self serving philosophy. the very nature of this forum supports that.

    5. KeithTax profile image80
      KeithTaxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree. Whenever a group of people think they are better, they are wrong. Christ said you must be the least of all people to enter Kingdom of God.

      Athists that say they are better are starting their own religious dogma. Me, I would rather share love and kindness to everyone, always. We are not here to show how much better we are over someone else. To do so means we must step on others to gain any altitude. I prefer to think we all soar when lock our hands together and spread our metiphorical wings. We all rise together or not at all.

    6. nikki1 profile image59
      nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree.. Atheists and Christian wana bees both from time to time twist the bible as much as they can. I was tricked by Mormons myself. Psyched rather. A good Christian only demonstrates their good deeds. Random act of kindness, saying inspiring thoughts. Never preaching. Or tricking. Jesus only helped his people. Gave them strength. Never twisting the bible.
      With all due respect that is all Atheists does is twist things.
      Or etc. Asking questions is one thing however they twist things. Been there done that. Wasn't pretty. Even Christian wana bees kind of pushes. A good Christian does not push. They encourage,.
      Happy New Year to all.

      1. Lady Guinevere profile image60
        Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        There wasn't a bible when Jesus was around.  It wasn't put together until some 40 years after his death.

        1. nikki1 profile image59
          nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          He's in there.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The only reason Jesus' work is included with religious text is because religious leaders of that time, didn't want his followers to continue spreading Jesus' work, but to do the work of religion and it's hoax. His work added to religious text, so as to perpetuate it's own lies.

            Jesus didn't teach religion. He was against it. smile

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You are very wrong there..Christ taught from the old Testament. It used to be called the word of God, scripture, the law  not the Bible.

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            If christ taught from the old testament why don't christians quote from it?

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I am not a Christian and can't speak for them but I think it is because THEY, not me Think the New Testament replaced it and it's not important.

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            From KJV
            Luke 4:

             4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

             15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
             16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
             17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
             20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
             21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

          3. nikki1 profile image59
            nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Now his word is called the "Holy Bible" its on every bible now.

        3. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Wow and where do you get this?

    7. Davidsonofjesie profile image60
      Davidsonofjesieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      ther are atrosites in the west bank & gaza but not the kind you ever hear about! it all started around 70 ad when the romans kicked the jews out of the holyland . they was called palistians in that time,and the arabs moved into the land vacated by the jews , most from jordan & in 1948 the U.N. gave most of the land back to them {the jews}and the jews didnt even try to kick out the arabs , but most of them left anyhow because the other arabs promised to kill the jews and take back the land, and there plan failed so the arabs that left had no place to go because the arabs failed in there atemp to take the land.so now no arabs will help there own people, they put them in camps and even attaked and killed them.the arab leage of nations had control of the holy land hundreds of years and would not it to arabs that lived there before the jews came back but now they wont to give it to them!!!dont make sence!!!read middle east history yourself

    8. wsp2469 profile image61
      wsp2469posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The premise is flawed and therefore the forum may be closed right now.  There are plenty of people who kill because they think there is no God.
      In fact, anyone who truly believes in God believes in soething called: "Thou shall not kill".
      I could send a deadly virus through HubPages that would kill anyone who touched their keyboards to further respond to this forum and say I am doing it because the original poster said I should but that doesn't mean it truly was what happened.
      It's much more fun to stir up shit with an actual hub; trust me.  I know it requires more of an effort than taking a shot at Christians but it is possible!

    9. 0
      Justine76posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      my thoughts ...... I think there might be a god/some gods, but he/it/they sure as shit havent shown himslef/themselves to me.
      and I do not believe in religion.

    10. AdsenseStrategies profile image71
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It is an untestable thesis, because for most of history most people have been believers of one sort or another. We will never know what would have happened if atheism had been widespread instead over all those hundreds of years.

      You're wrong about mass murder not being committed in the name of atheism, however. Communist regimes did this. In China, owning a Bible is a serious offence, for example.

  2. 0
    blatvaposted 6 years ago

    I think this a topic that will only cause trouble. I can see it now, Pages and Pages of people fighting about religion..

    1. kirstenblog profile image77
      kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Oh yeah it will, I'm off to go make some popcorn to have while I watch the fireworks wink

    2. EmpressFelicity profile image85
      EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ya think?  lol lol

      Even though I'm an atheist, I still try to apply the golden rule in my daily life.  Which means that if I know I will get pissed off when religious people claim to be better than me because they're religious, then I won't inflict the same behaviour on religious people by claiming to be better than them by virtue of my atheism.

      1. 0
        blatvaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly! I don't believe in any "God" but im not going to run into Mass one day naked, Screaming that everyone is wrong And I that i am right. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions..

        1. Sa Toya profile image87
          Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I couldn't agree more...I believe in God but have issues with religion. I do not go around condemning atheists to hell or forcing my beliefs on others like I'm some righteousness being.
          smile

    3. Mikel G Roberts profile image89
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Fighting/arguing with words, on paper (or a computer screen) is a better alternative, than the fighting we see on the news. Wouldn't you agree?

      1. TMMason profile image74
        TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree fully and whole heartedly with that statement. Yes, much better.

  3. 0
    Audreveaposted 6 years ago

    No one is superior to anyone else. We're all just finding our way through life. Anyone who feels superior is just showing their ignorance.

    1. marcofratelli profile image82
      marcofratelliposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I like you. You're wise. smile I like something that Einstein once said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Cause you can't just be religious for the sake of it without appreciating all the magnificence of creation. It's human nature to question how things work. At the same time, as the human mind tries to comprehend its existence, you can't help but appreciate how finely the universe is balanced and how intelligent its design is...perhaps there is a superior being behind it all. I've got some great athiest friends who are still spiritual but not necessarily religious like I am. It's disappointing reading the back and forth between the two groups sometimes, but there's no denying both are equally passionate.

    2. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
      ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

    3. Davidsonofjesie profile image60
      Davidsonofjesieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A-MAN

  4. 0
    B52 Bomberposted 6 years ago

    Just another ignorant post.

  5. 0
    Sarra Garrettposted 6 years ago

    The Bible states: When more than 2 peopole get together in my name I will be there.  There has been bloodshed ever since Jesus was born and before that.  People fight over wanting more power.  Greed is what is the driving force behind it all.  If you are an athiest, you have no soul but the soul of the devil. Sorry.

    1. DogSiDaed profile image61
      DogSiDaedposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Lololol ultimate retard XD

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I would say to this statement that if you're a believer, then you're no better than a herd of lost sheep, who are blind and need someone to guide them.

      Religion is a business. Nothing more. smile

      1. wesleyacarter profile image59
        wesleyacarterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        that last statement I don't agree with. it is unfair to minimize the traditions of others just because you think it is inconvenient for you. what you claim is a belief in and of itself is it not?

        there are some religions like the varying North American Christian sects, that are centered around a capitalist regime, forcing them into business arenas. Otherwise, there are religions like Buddhism, which were invited into China from India without conflictand govern the actions and beliefs of a great deal of people without such monetary attributes.

        religion means a lot to many people and is not just business. science, and extension of atheist and agnostic belief, is the center of industry and business i would say. a symptom of modern thought.

  6. mcbean profile image83
    mcbeanposted 6 years ago

    The use of "Superior" appear intentionally inflammatory.

    I can otherwise see a point, although one that would not be relevant to "normal" religious people.

  7. kirstenblog profile image77
    kirstenblogposted 6 years ago

    I had a question inspired by the OP. We all know about the wars and such that were over religion. There are cases of extreme science has been similar tho, like eugenics (the practice of killing and sterilizing the undesirables, the sick or the weak for the purpose of creating a better/stronger race). Is it not possible that taking anything to the extreme of being willing to kill for it is a bad thing at the end of the day?

    1. EmpressFelicity profile image85
      EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You're being rational and sensible.  Now you know perfectly well that's not allowed in the religious forums! big_smile

      1. kirstenblog profile image77
        kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Very sorry miss. I shall go stand in the corner and think about what I did

      2. habee profile image92
        habeeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I was just about to say the same thing, Empress!

        1. kirstenblog profile image77
          kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well I am a very naughty raccoon

        2. EmpressFelicity profile image85
          EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          This naughty step is getting a bit crowded, and it's beginning to rain...maybe we should build a shed?  Plus it would be warmer.

          1. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            No complaints here...the more the merrier big_smile

        3. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
          Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Dittos here got more room at the naughty step? I got some extra M&Ms! big_smile big_smile

    2. Davidsonofjesie profile image60
      Davidsonofjesieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      thou shall not kill

  8. Sa Toya profile image87
    Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago

    Religion and beliefs aside we are all humans and should respect and love each other regardless. We were all birthed by mothers and must face the world in all it's splendour and hardships, some of us might have a higher/better standard of living that others, some are rich,some are poor

    BUT at the end of the day when our time is up we leave the earth and decompose or in a pile of ash in an urn somewhere.

    Fundamentally we're equal-no race, religion,belief,caste,class is superior to another.

    Anyone deeming them self superior to another is facetious, arrogant, egotistical and a little narcissistic.

    Why can't we just along get along? smile

    1. kirstenblog profile image77
      kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Please refer to EmpressFelicitys post above about being rational and sensible in a religious forum, I am sure there is room over here in the naughty corner for the both of us wink

      1. Sa Toya profile image87
        Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol

        Looks like I'll be sat on the naughty step wink

  9. Will Apse profile image91
    Will Apseposted 6 years ago

    As an atheist whose wife is profoundly religious, I have to say there are moments when I feel superior to odd superstitions and practices.

    Then I remember the nightmare of the twentieth century and the horrors of contending atheistic ideologies where the ends always justified the means.

    I am grateful for that irrational reverence for life that you find in religions and those pieces of advice like 'pull the plank out of your own eye before you point out the mote in another's eye'.

    On the other hand, I do wish that tangle of minor fundamentalist US churches would start educating their preachers a little better. It is the section of religious thought and practice that makes religion so easy to ridicule.

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I like that, Will - the human condition is far too complex for simple black and white distinctions.

      This is only one man's opinion, built upon a small sample, but I believe that the decline of mysticism in religion has a part to play - the people who explore the fringes act as a counter-balance to extremism. Sufi's, Hindu holy men and Christian Monks are just some of the examples of people who taught something outside strict doctrine, dogma and scripture.

      Greeks have experienced the evil of politicians using religion as a basis for oppression and this is one of the reasons why monks are highly respected here, even if the mainstream Orthodox Church is trying its best to drive people away via scandal and corruption.

      This is a leap, and I don't expect everybody to agree, but I think that a similar principle applies to science. Too many scientists graduate and build a career without studying philosophy - I personally believe that a scientist should study Aristotle and Popper, but it has become unfashionable.

  10. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    Atheism doesn't kill people.  Wake up.

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Atheism is as responsible for it adherants actions as Christianity or Islam. You don't get mo specail treatment. And you need to wake up.

  11. kirstenblog profile image77
    kirstenblogposted 6 years ago

    I am probably going to end up on the naughty step all day for this one but here goes. I think the point being made here is that whatever group our align yourself with it will give you reason to practice humbleness and humility not give you superiority. Superiority based on a label of atheist or christian or jew or muslim or jedi knight is sure to get horrors dug up from the past and aired for all to see because every group has had some dark history at some point. Pride goeth before a fall and that is all tongue

  12. EmpressFelicity profile image85
    EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago

    ::sigh:: roll

    Any room left on that naughty step guys?  And I don't like popcorn, but I can provide several tubes of Pringles...

    1. kirstenblog profile image77
      kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ohhh I love pringles! Gotta step right here nice n warm for ya big_smile

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Room for one more?

        I have Baklava... smile

        1. kirstenblog profile image77
          kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think we could squeeze you in big_smile

          1. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            A thorn between two roses big_smile

            1. kirstenblog profile image77
              kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              What a nice thing to say, you really do belong on the naughty step! lol
              Being nice and rational and even respectful is a no no in this forum it seems wink

            2. EmpressFelicity profile image85
              EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              *Three* roses - I think there was another lady but she's disappeared.  Can't imagine why LOL.

              How about some vodka to help the baklava/Pringles/popcorn go down a bit?  Then when we're well enough oiled, we can all break out into a storming rendition of "Always Look On The Bright Side of Life".

              1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Three roses - I stand corrected!

                I will have to pass on the vodka as it has a bad effect on me. No worries, I have plenty of Ouzo to share big_smile

    2. Sa Toya profile image87
      Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes yes come sit with me lol
      I lurve Pringles wink

  13. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 6 years ago

    Are you for real. You BC- said..."As far as I am aware, no one has committed mass murder in there name of there being no God.


    Your wrong your Atheism has slaughtered millions.

    And show me the slander punk

    1. Bovine Currency profile image60
      Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I did not say that and I have reported you.

  14. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 6 years ago

    Sorry if you didn't. Too bad. Get over it. And that is not slander if I did. You need to get real.

    The post is about Atheism and mass murder. The 20th century proves this posters statement is wrong. Too bad to all the Atheists out there.

    Do you even know the definition of slander? No you don't. or you would know slander is spoken, Liable is written. And again this is not it. hahah too funny.

    And whethe or not you mentioned the 20th century is a red herring. Atheism is as bad as any religion. And what about the science atrocities? Still no reply to that either.

    1. Bovine Currency profile image60
      Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Why don't you tell me seeing as how you know so much better.

  15. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    Atheism does not kill people.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image89
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Your correct, people kill people.

  16. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    1 century, whatever the facts of that century do not prove anything   about the sum of history.  WAKE UP.

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Slander is spoken, libel is wriiten.


      And a century within which more human life was destroyed through wars and Idiologies that any others and many combined and added together. most certainly does speak to this topic.

      You wake up, why don't you just go whimpering back to report me again. Whaaaaa

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        If your facts were straight you might prove something but like most of what you post, once again you are nowhere.

        1. TMMason profile image74
          TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          What facts of mine are not straight? Show them to me, or shut up and whimper away. It is a simple thing, show me my wrong facts.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I have already shown you.  Pull your head out and read.

            1. TMMason profile image74
              TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              No.

              You haven't.

              You have shown you know nothing about the murderous history of your precious Atheism.

              And that you whimper and whine when someone doesn't accept your BS, and calls you it.

              My point is proved I am done with you now.

              Go to the step, lil B.

              And don't be crying to the adults anymore.

              1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I thought you were done with me.

                Note this Mason, I am not an atheist.

                You are a joker.

  17. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    well there you go.  1 point for you.

    Call it libel then China plate.

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      go whimpering back to report me again. Whaaaaa 100s of millions of people dead in one century, is a big deal in the history of man. Only a pre-schooler would think it irrelavent. Grow up lil B.

  18. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    You have presented no facts.

  19. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    What history?

    Show me the history.

  20. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    You say Atheism has slaughtered millions.  Is that your idea of facts?

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Just Moa and Stalin tally about what?... 150+ million or more people. Ahhhh Atheism, such a beautiful thing.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        150 million?  Care to back that up with some secondary opinion or is this the gospel according to Mason?

  21. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    You say that in the 20th century there was more 'slaughter' than the sum of the entire history of mankind?

    Facts?

    You are something, Mason.  A historian?  Doubtful.

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Do you know how to read?

      I said.. "And a century within which more human life was destroyed through wars and Idiologies that any others and many combined and added together. most certainly does speak to this topic."

      There was, as a matter of fact, more deaths through the 20th century through war than in any other century in the history of man.

      Yes that is a fact.

      And I follow by saying,... "and many combined and added together."

      You see the word ALL in there? But hey you may be right,... it may outnumber all wars throughout history. Good question I will look into it. Now grow up and learn to read.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I am right.  No maybe.  I am right, you are wrong.  You expose yourself as the fool and you don't need my help.

        1. TMMason profile image74
          TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Again. You don't see the world all in there do you. You don't  comprehend well at all. Do you?

          Yeah your right,... hahaha

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Glad you finally came to the truth.  Good on you champ.

            1. TMMason profile image74
              TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Talking to you is like talk9ing to a mule. You don't know and don't care to know. you just talk BS and then talk some more BS. And you cry like lil sister sally. Go report me and amuse yourself for a while. Atheism is more deadly in it's practice that any religion out there. that is a simple fact.

              One day you will learn.

              1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                All this relates to the mule?  How is that Mason?

                You are very good at petty name calling, telling me to read, making up lies, putting words in my mouth, distorting history to your own whims, alluding to my childlike state.  Do you have any other talents?  Do you ever argue with substance?  What motivates you to be so petty?

                1. TMMason profile image74
                  TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  What facts are wrong. There was more death through war and Ideologies in the 20th century, than any other century, and an adding of many, if not all of them, together.

                  That is a fact.

                  And atheism, was involved in much of it.

                  1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Fact, according to the gospel of Mason.  Very good.  Clap clap.

                  2. tantrum profile image61
                    tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Atheism is not a religion, is not a political organization. You don't have Atheist committees, Atheists Churches, Atheist Civil organizations.

                    There's no Book Of Atheist's Rules or Laws.
                    Communism doesn't have a religion, but, for being a communist you don't have to swear to Atheism, as Atheism is not a Religion, it's only a state of mind.
                    So, How can you know the communist who killed people in the 20th Cent. weren't Christians in their intimacy ??
                    You get Real !!

  22. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    Facts Mason, come on then.  Bring on the facts.  Where are you?  Checking Wikipedia?

  23. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago

    You pull figures out of thin air.  You support your beliefs with lies.  Why is this Mason?

  24. kirstenblog profile image77
    kirstenblogposted 6 years ago

    Some things in life are bad
    They can really make you mad
    Other things just make you swear and curse.
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle
    And this'll help things turn out for the best...

    And...always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the light side of life...

    If life seems jolly rotten
    There's something you've forgotten
    And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
    When you're feeling in the dumps
    Don't be silly chumps
    Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

    And...always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the light side of life...

    For life is quite absurd
    And death's the final word
    You must always face the curtain with a bow.
    Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
    Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

    So always look on the bright side of death
    Just before you draw your terminal breath

    Life's a piece of shit
    When you look at it
    Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
    You'll see it's all a show
    Keep 'em laughing as you go
    Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

    And always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the right side of life...
    (Come on guys, cheer up!)
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    (Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
    Always look on the bright side of life...
    (I mean - what have you got to lose?)
    (You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
    What have you lost? Nothing!)
    Always look on the right side of life...

    1. Sa Toya profile image87
      Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      HA yes, we do need some tunes on the step!

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        lol  Very good.

        1. kirstenblog profile image77
          kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It's more fun on the naughty step wink

          1. Sa Toya profile image87
            Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Totes ma goats  lol
            It's better here and we have fun and it's all peaceful

        2. TMMason profile image74
          TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I agree. Very amusing.

  25. Sufidreamer profile image81
    Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago

    lol lol lol

  26. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    Neither are superior.

    1. 0
      blatvaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Here, Here smile

    2. Sa Toya profile image87
      Sa Toyaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Agreed Welcome to the naughty step....I'm afraid this way of thinking is not allowed on the Religion & Belief forum wink

      1. kirstenblog profile image77
        kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        We got pringles here on the naughty step, booze, popcorn and some other tasty treats. It's way more fun on the naughty step big_smile

        1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
          Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'm out of chips but I have lots of chocolate and booze and homemade bits and bites.

          1. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hehe - Let the rest of the boys fight whilst I sit on the naughty step with the ladies. Pass the wine, UW big_smile

            Happy Days smile

            1. kirstenblog profile image77
              kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Its a wise man who would prefer to sit with pretty ladies to share some wine and nibbles big_smile

              1. TMMason profile image74
                TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thats why I am sitting here with my wife, whom I adore on one side, and my daughter, the love of my life, on the other. yes, wise men indeed.

                And my point about more death in the 20th century than all others, or many tallied together, stands firmly in place. With all the variables and the incomplete history of the death stats in reality, we can make an educated estimate.

                I can also gather stats that are much miuch higher than these. On History channel show not long back, estimated the death toll for all in WWII as being in the area of 70 million.

                Again no way to actually tell the thruth of it.

              2. Sufidreamer profile image81
                Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Better to be a lover than a fighter - we had a lovely and sunny couple of days, so I am in a wonderfully relaxed mood smile

                Going to cook some spinach and rice soon, to complete a great day big_smile

  27. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    So, you are comparing birth control to murder? And just because someone is an atheist does not necessarily mean they believe in or support abortion...and certainly not murder of any kind.

    People used to be burned at the stake for not believing in God or a specific religion.

    As I said, none is superior.

  28. 0
    Will Bensonposted 6 years ago

    Neither atheism, religion, nor any other form of ideology ever murdered anyone. Those who blindly surrendered their personal values, intelligence and morals to these causes have done the killing. The ideological leaders seldom have the stomach to do their own murdering but by turning normal rational people into fanatical followers, the job gets done. Believing that only you and your ideology have the truth dehumanizes the opposition and seems to justify the atrocities we’ve seen throughout our history.

    Just my thoughts.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image89
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well Stated.

      1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
        Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Concur

  29. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    Of course, some people don't get it and are not willing to listen...

  30. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 6 years ago

    There a soime stats. Add them up guys. Have at it plenty of communist atheism in there t keep you busy for a while. or just ignore it like good lil liberals, leant leftists, Atheists, and scientists.

    Read enough you'll get to this,.. "As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion."

    Ah them pesky lil stats that show atheists kill as many as religionists.


    First World War (1914-18): 15 000 000 [make link]
    This is the only major bloodletting which has pretty much the same body count no matter which source I check: 8,500,000 military deaths. It all goes back to a report issued by the U.S. War Dept. in Feb. 1924, amended by the Statistical Services Center, Office of the Secretary of Defense on 7 Nov. 1957, which everyone ("everyone" = Brzezinski, Britannica, Norman Davies, Encarta, Gilbert, Hammond, Small & Singer, Wallechinsky) more or less agrees with. Among my major sources, only Eckhardt and Urlanis diverge from the mainstream. In The Defeat of Imperial Germany 1917-1918, Rod Paschall cites a study by Arthur Banks. I've also consulted John Ellis & Michael Cox, The World War I Databook ("E&C"):
    Austria-Hungary: 1,100,000 (Urlanis); 1,200,000 (everyone, Paschall); 2,300,000 (Eckhardt)
    E&C cite two different tables in the Austrian Official History, giving total killed as either 1,016,200 k. or 539,630 k. Neither includes 478,000 who died as POWs.
    Belgium: 13,716 (Britannica, Compton's, Daivies, Hammond, Tucker); 38,000 (Urlanis); 87,500 (S&S -- although it seems to me that they have confused "Belg." with "Bulg."; see 2 lines down.); 88,000 (Eckhardt)
    Britain & Empire: 908,371 (everyone); 997,000 (Paschall)
    Africans: 38,723 laborers and porters died in hospital in East Africa 1917-18 (E&C)
    Australia: 53,560 KIA + 6,300 other deaths = 59,860 (E&C); 60,000 (Eckhardt; Urlanis); 61,720 (AWM)
    Canada: 55,000 (Eckhardt); 61,000 (Urlanis); 58,990 KIA + 3,830 other deaths = 62,820 (E&C)
    India: 25,000 (Eckhardt); 54,000 (Urlanis)
    New Zealand: 16,000 (Eckhardt; Urlanis); 16,710 (E&C)
    UK: 702,410 (E&C); 715,000 (Urlanis); 1,000,000 (Eckhardt)
    South Africa: 7,000 (Urlanis); 7,120 (E&C: whites only)
    Bulgaria: 14,000 (S&S-c.f. Belgium); 28,000 (Eckhardt); 75,844 (Tucker); 87,500 (Britannica, Davies, Compton's); 88,000 (Urlanis); 90,000 (Hammond); 95,000 (Paschall); 77,450 KIA + >24,500 other deaths = 101,950 (E&C)
    France & Empire: 1,327,000 (Urlanis); 1,357,800 (everyone); 1,385,300 (E&C); 1,390,000 (Paschall); 1,630,000 (Eckhardt)
    French Colonies: 58,000 (E&C); 114,000 (Urlanis)
    Germany: 1,773,700 (everyone); 1,850,000 (Paschall); 2,037,000 (E&C, Urlanis); 2,400,000 (Eckhardt)
    Africans: 14,000 (E&C)
    Greece: 5,000 (everyone; Eckhardt, E&C); 26,000 (Urlanis)
    Italy: 460,000 (Paschall); 462,391 (Tucker); 462,400 (E&C); 578,000 (Urlanis); 600,000 (Hammond); 650,000 (Britannica, Davies, Compton's, S&S); 950,000 (Eckhardt)
    Japan: 300 (everyone)
    Montenegro: 3,000 (everyone)
    Portugal: 7,000 (Urlanis); 7,220 (E&C, incl. 5,550 in Africa); 7,222 (everyone); 13,000 (Eckhardt)
    Romania: 219,800 (E&C: incl. 70,500 who died as POWs); 250,000 (Urlanis); 340,000 (Paschall); 335,706 (everyone); 375,000 (Eckhardt)
    Russia: 1,700,000 (everyone, Paschall); 1,800,000 (E&C); 1,811,000 (Urlanis); 2,950,000 (Eckhardt)
    Serbia: 45,000 (Tucker, Hammond, Britannica, Compton's), 48,000 (S&S), 70,000 (Davies); 127,500 (E&C: incl. sickness); 128,000 (Eckhardt: "Yugoslavia"); 278,000 (Urlanis: "Serbia + Montenegro")
    Turkey: 236,000 (E&C); 325,000 (everyone); 350,000 (Paschall); 450,000 (Eckhardt); 804,000 (Urlanis)
    USA: 50,585 (Tucker, Hammond, Britannica); 51,822 (E&C); 53,407 (Compton's); 116,000 (Paschall); 53,402 KIA + 63,114 other deaths = 116,516 (DoD; 1991 Info. Please); 126,000 (S&S; Eckhardt)
    TOTAL: 8,364,712 (E&C); 8,500,000 (everyone); 8,513,000 (Paschall); 9,442,000 (Urlanis); 12,599,000 (Eckhardt)
    Individual Battles:
    2nd Aisne
    2nd Arras
    Belleau Wood
    Caporetto
    Frontiers, Battle of the
    Gallipoli
    Jutland
    Lemberg
    1st Marne
    2nd Marne
    Meuse-Argonne
    Passchendaele
    Somme
    Tannenburg
    Verdun
    1st Ypres
    Civilian casualty estimates are spread wider, and are usually offered without source or detail. (Some of these civilian estimates may include all or part of the Russian Civil War and Armenian massacres -- it's difficult to decide where WW1 ends and these begin, or whether these are distinct and separate events at all)
    Brzezinski: 13,000,000 civilians
    Britannica: 13,000,000
    Encyclopedia Americana (2003), "Twentieth Century": 12.5M civilians
    Encarta: close to 10,000,000
    Hammond: 9,000,000
    Urlanis: 9,000,000 (based on increased mortality during the war years)
    Russia: 1,500,000
    Italy: 1,021,000
    Austria-Hungary: 700,000
    Germany: 692,000
    France: 500,000
    Serbia: 450,000
    Romania: 430,000
    Britain: 292,000
    Greece: 150,000
    Bulgaria: 100,000
    Belgium: 92,000
    Turkey: unknown
    MEDIAN: 6.6-9.0M
    Tucker (European Powers in the First World War -- the source of the data on my map): 6,642,633
    Turkey: 2,150,000
    Russia: 2,000,000
    Germany: 760,000
    Serbia: 650,000
    Austria-Hungary: 300,000
    Bulgaria: 275,000
    Romania: 275,000
    Greece: 132,000
    France: 40,000
    Britain: 30,633
    Belgium: 30,000
    Dictionary of Military History (1994): 6,600,000
    Wallechinsky: 6,500,000
    Eckhardt: 6,493,000
    Nation by nation, Eckhardt and Tucker agree -- with three exceptions:
    Russia: 3,000,000
    Turkey: 1,000,000
    UK: 31,000
    (Eckhardt explicitly excludes the Armenian massacres and Russian Civil War from these numbers.)
    John Ellis & Michael Cox, The World War I Databook: 6,458,886
    Turkey: 2,000,000 (mainly Armenian)
    Russia: 2,000,000
    Germany: 700,000
    Serbia: 600,000
    Romania: 265,000 to 500,000 [=ca. 382,500]
    Austria-Hungary: 300,000
    Bulgaria: 275,000
    Greece: 130,000
    France: 40,000
    Belgium: 30,000
    Britain: 1,386 (in air raids)
    Davies (Europe A History): 5,000,000
    ATROCITIES:
    Belgian civilians massacred by Germans, Aug. 1914 (John Keegan, The First World War, 1998): 211 at Andenne, 384 at Tamines, 612 at Dinant.
    McDougall [http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/heads/footnotes/dirtyhands.html]
    Belgian civilians k. by German army: 5,500
    Lusitania sunk by Ger.: 1,200 k.
    Germans d. of starvation under wartime blockade: 763,000
    Armenians: 1,000,000+
    Russian Civil War (1917-22): 9 000 000 [make link]
    Eckhardt: 500,000 civ. + 300,000 mil. = 800,000
    Readers Companion to Military History, Cowley and Parker, eds. (1996) [http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_045400_russiancivil.htm]:
    Combat deaths: 825,000
    Ancillary deaths: 2,000,000
    TOTAL: 2,825,000
    Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998)
    Civil War and Volga Famine (1918-22): 3,000,000 to 5,000,000
    Brzezinski, Z:
    6 to 8 million people died under Lenin from war, famine etc.
    Mastering Twentieth Century Russian History by Norman Lowe (2002)
    TOTAL: 7,000,000 to 10,000,000
    Red Army
    Battle: 632,000
    Disease: 581,000
    Whites: 1,290,000 battle + disease
    White Terror: "tens of thousands"
    Red Terror
    Executed: 50-200,000
    Died in prison or killed in revolts: 400,000
    Typhoid + typhus
    1919: 890,000
    1920: >1M
    Urlanis:
    Military deaths: 800,000
    Battle deaths, all sides: 300,000
    Dead of wounds: 50,000
    Disease: 450,000
    Civilians: 8,000,000
    TOTAL: 8,800,000
    Dyadkin, I.G. (cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993)
    9 million unnatural deaths from terror, famine and disease, 1918-23
    Richard Pipes, A concise history of the Russian Revolution (1995): 9 million deaths, 1917-1922
    Famine: 5M
    Combat: 2M
    Reds: 1M
    Whites: 127,000
    Epidemics: 2M
    not incl.
    Emigration: 2M
    Birth deficit: 14M
    Rummel:
    Civil War (1917-22)
    War: 1,410,000 (includes 500,000 civilian)
    Famine: 5,000,000 (50% democidal)
    Other democide: 784,000
    Epidemics: 2,300,000
    Total: 9,494,000
    Lenin's Regime (1917-24)
    Rummel blames Lenin for a lifetime total of 4,017,000 democides.
    Figes, Orlando (A People's Tragedy: A History of the Russian Revolution, 1997)
    10 million deaths from war, terror, famine and disease.
    Including...
    Famine (1921-22): 5 million
    Killed in fighting, both military and civilian: 1M
    Jews killed in pogroms: 150,000
    Not including...
    Demographic effects of a hugely reduced birth-rate: 10M
    Emmigration: 2M
    McEvedy, Colin (Atlas of World Population History, 1978)
    War deaths: 2M
    Other excess deaths: 14M
    Reduced births: 10M
    Emmigration: 2M
    MEDIAN: Of these ten estimates that claim to be complete, the median is 8.8M-9.0M.
    PARTIALS:
    Small & Singer (battle deaths, 1917-21)
    Russian Civil War (Dec.1917-Oct.1920)
    Russians: 500,000
    Allied Intervention:
    Japan: 1,500
    UK: 350
    USA: 275
    France: 50
    Finland: 50
    Russian Nationalities War (Dec.1917-Mar.1921)
    USSR: 50,000
    Bruce Lincoln, Red Victory: a History of the Russian Civil War 1918-1921
    Death sentences by the Cheka: ca. 100,000
    Pogroms: as many as one in 13 Jews k. out of 1.5M in Ukraine [i.e. ca. 115,000] (citing Heifetz)
    Nevins, citing Heifetz and the Red Cross: 120,000 Jews killed in 1919 pogroms [http://www.west.net/~jazz/felshtin/redcross.html]
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): Cheka responsible for maybe 250,000+ violent deaths.
    Paul Johnson
    50,000 death sentences imposed by the Cheka by 12/20
    100,000 Jews killed in 1919
    Green, Barbara (in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?)
    4 to 5 million deaths in the famine of 1921-23
    Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace
    North Russia: 244 USAns d. incl. 144 k.battle
    Siberia: 160 USAns KIA + 168 other d.
    [US Total: 304 KIA + 268 other = 572 d.]
    Czech Legion: 13,000 dead.
    Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 [make link]
    There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
    Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
    Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
    Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
    Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
    Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
    Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
    Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
    1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
    1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
    1939-45: 18,157,000
    1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
    TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
    William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
    Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
    Cited by Wallechinsky:
    Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
    Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
    MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
    And from the Lower Numbers school:
    Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
    Cited in Nove:
    Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
    Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
    Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
    Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
    Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
    Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
    MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
    As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
    [Letter]
    Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
    In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
    Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
    Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
    Daniel Chirot:
    "Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
    "Highest": 40M
    Citing:
    Conquest: 20M
    Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
    Medvedev: 40M
    Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
    Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
    [Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]
    John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
    Kulaks: 7M
    Gulag: 12M
    Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)
    Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
    Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
    Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
    AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
    Individual Gulags etc.
    Kolyma
    Kuropaty
    Vorkuta
    Bykivnia
    Famine, 1926-38
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 4.2M in Ukraine + 1.7M in Kazakhstan
    Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
    Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
    Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
    Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
    Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
    Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
    Conquest:
    Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
    1932-33: 7M
    Ukraine: 5M
    Second World War (1937-45): 55 000 000 [make link]
    Total:
    It's the most intensively studied event of the 20th Century, so the margin of error is not quite a wide here as for most of the other wars and oppressions on this page. Most historians agree that the death toll was about 50 million (including wartime atrocities). If you don't believe me, here's just a sampling of the books I have on hand:
    Haywood: Atlas of World History (1997): 50M
    Keegan, J., The Second World War (1989): 50M
    Messenger, The Chronological Atlas of World War Two (1989): 50M
    The Times Concise Atlas of World History (1988): 50M
    J.M. Roberts, Twentieth Century (1999): >50M
    Urlanis: 50M
    Soldiers: 22.0M
    Civilians
    In camps, from Fascist terror: 12.0M
    From hostilites, blockade, epidemics, hunger: 14.5M
    From bombing: 1.5M
    Dictionary of Military History (1994): 41M
    Wallechinsky: 40-55M
    Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978): 55M
    Hammond: 55M
    Guiness World Records: 56.4M [http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/index.asp?id=46252]
    Sivard, Ruth Leger, World Military and Social Expenditures 1986 (11th ed.): 38,351,000 (1939-45), not incl. 1.8M in Sino-Japanese War (1937-41)
    Brzezinski:
    Military: 19M
    Civilians, "actual byproduct of hostilities": 20M
    Civilians, Sino-Japanese War: 15M
    Hitler's murders: 17M
    TOTAL: 71M
    Rummel:
    European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
    Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000
    War-related Democides
    Hitler: 20,946,000
    Stalin: 13,053,000
    Japanese: 5,964,000
    Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
    Allied Bombing: 796,000
    Croatian: 655,000
    Tito: 600,000
    Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
    Chinese Communist: 250,000
    Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000
    [TOTAL: 48,733,000]
    [TOTAL (1937-45): 84,609,000]
    AVERAGE
    The MEDIAN of these estimates is 50M.
    If we add up the country-by-country medians (of total death tolls) we get:
    LEVEL 1: 47.35M
    USSR: 20.0M
    China: 10.45M
    Poland: 5.8M
    Germany: 5.5M
    India: 2.15M
    Japan: 1.9M
    Yugoslavia: 1.55M
    LEVEL 2: ca. 3.8M
    LEVEL 3: ca. 0.25M
    TOTAL: 51.4M
    The country-by-country medians for military personnel killed in the war are:
    USSR: 10.0M
    Germany: 3.5M
    China: 2.05M
    Japan: 1.5M
    USA: 0.4M
    Romania: 0.3M
    Yugoslavia: 0.3M
    UK: 0.28M
    Italy: 0.23M
    France: 0.21M
    Hungary: 0.14M
    Poland: 0.125M
    TOTAL: 19.0M
    Who to Blame:
    Most history books break their WW2 numbers down according to whether the dead are military or civilian and which country they came from. Since I've done that elsewhere, let's try to break it down by guilt. Here are various estimates by various experts of the number of superfluous, non-military deaths during the Second World War.
    Hitler [make link]:
    Extermination of the Jews:
    Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution (1953): between 4,194,200 and 4,851,200 (this number is accepted by Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978))
    Brzezinski: 5,000,000
    Chirot: 5,100,000
    3,000,000 in death camps.
    1,300,000 massacred.
    800,000 by dis./maln. in ghettos
    Rummel: 5,291,000
    Grenville: 5-6M
    Davies, Europe A History (1998): avg. c. 5,571,300 (puts the minimum at 4,871,000 and the maximum at 6,271,500.)
    MEDIAN: ca. 5.6M
    Nuremberg indictment: 5,700,000 (accepted by Britannica)
    Gutman, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 to 5,860,129
    P. Johnson: 5,800,000
    Wallechinsky: "nearly" 6,000,000
    Urlanis: 6M
    Country-by-country
    Individual Camps, Massacres etc.
    Auschwitz
    Babi Yar
    Belzec
    Chelmno
    Majdanek
    Mauthausen
    Odessa
    Sobibor
    Treblinka
    Soviet Prisoners of War killed:
    Urlanis: 3,912,000
    12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
    Our Times: 3,300,000
    Rummel: 3,100,000
    MEDIAN: 3.0-3.1M
    Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
    Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
    Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and 1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
    Britannica: 2,600,000
    Roma (Gypsies):
    Hammond: 250,000.
    Rummel: 258,000.
    Mazower, Dark Continent: 200,000-500,000.
    Porter: 500,000
    Brzezinski: 800,000
    Ian Hancock, "Responses to the Romani Holocaust" in Is the Holocaust Unique? (A. Rosenbaum, ed.) cites these:
    US Holocaust Memorial Museum: 250,000
    "several published estimates": >1,000,000
    Pauwels and Bergier: 750,000
    Financial Times (London): 500-750,000 in death camps and another million shot outside.
    Homosexuals:
    Chirot: 10-15,000
    Rummel: 220,000
    Euthanasia of Handicapped:
    Hugh G. Gallagher: 275,000, citing Breggin (in Century of Genocide, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
    Johnson: 70,000 insane and incurable Germans k.
    US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Historical Atlas of the Holocaust: 70,000 k.in initial phase, 1939-41. 275,000 total k, acc. to Nuremburg Tribunal.
    Air Raids
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): "an estimated 500,000 Soviet citizens died from German bomb attacks."
    Belgrade
    London
    Stalingrad
    Victims of Wehrmacht:
    Acc2 historical exhibit curated by Hannes Heer: The common soldiers of the Wehrmacht murdered 1.5M Jews, 3.3M POWs + 5-7M non-Jewish civilians (17 May 1995 Agence France Presse; 22 Feb. 1997 AP)
    [Let's make a rough calcultion of the number of Soviet civilians who were victims of excessive German brutality. In the Italian Campaign, for example, where the rules of civilized warfare were generally obeyed, there were some 90T civilians and 125T soldiers killed. The same ratio applied to the ca. 11M soldiers killed in battle in Russia would indicate that some 7.9M Russian civilians would have died if the laws of war had been kept in place, instead of the ca. 17M that did die. The difference of 9 million dead civilians is the cost of the added brutality.]
    General political prisoners:
    Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): over one million died in concentration camps, not counting those deliberately targeted for extermination.
    Rosenburg, The Haunted Land: 26,000 political death sentences passed by German courts.
    HITLER TOTAL:
    Courtois: 25,000,000
    Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
    Brzezinski: 17,000,000
    Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
    MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
    Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
    Compton's: 12,000,000
    Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
    NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that some 28M civilians and 14M soldiers died in the European War. That's 42,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another.
    Japanese [make link]:
    China and Korea
    Nanking Massacre, 13 Dec. 1937-Feb. 38:
    Spence, The Search for Modern China: 42,000
    Gilbert: >200,000 civilians and 90,000 POWs
    Dict.Wars: 200,000
    Rummel: 200,000
    P. Johnson: 200-300,000
    27 Aug 2001 Newsweek, quoting Japanese textbook: "The number of dead is said to be over 100,000 and it is estimated to be over 300,000 in China."
    Palmowski, Dictionary of 20th Century World History: "perhaps as many as" 400,000
    Iris Chang, The Rape of Nanking (1997) cites these:
    Liu Fang-chu: 430,000
    James Yin & Shi Young: 400,000
    Sun Zhaiwei: 377,400 corpses disposed of
    Wu Tien-wei: 340,000
    District Court of Nanking: 300,000
    International Military Tribunal of the Far East: 260,000
    Fujiwara Akira: 200,000
    John Rabe: 50,000-60,000
    Hata Ikuhiko: 38,000-42,000
    [Median: 260,000]
    Unit 731, Manchukuo (bio-warfare center: 1937-45)
    Discovery Channel: "as many as 200,000 people — Chinese soldiers, private citizens and prisoners of war — had died" [http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/spotlight/bioterror/history/history2.html]
    Global Security: Up to 3,000 died in this facility. Perhaps as many 200,000 Chinese died from germ war campaign in Yunnan Province, Ningbo, and Changde. [http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/bw.htm]
    Bombing: 71,105 Chinese k. by Japanese bombing (Clodfelter)
    South East Asia and East Indies
    Bataan Death March, 1942
    Burma-Siam Railroad, worker deaths (1941-43)
    Johnson: 16,000 POWs
    Our Times, also Gilbert: 50,000 Burmese civilians and 16,000 Allied POWs
    Grenville: 100,000 Asians and 16,000 Europeans
    7 February 2002 AP: 50,000 Asian laborers and 16,000 Allied POWs
    Manila Massacre, 1944-45
    East Timor
    James Dunn, in Century of Genocide, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997)): 70,000 died under Japanese occupation
    19 May 2002 San Gabriel Valley Tribune: "January 1942: Japan occupies the entire island. With support from the local people, Australian commandos in East Timor battle Japan. Japanese reprisals kill 60,000 civilians 13 percent of East Timor's population."
    Dutch East Indies: 25,000 Dutch d. out of 140,000 imprisoned (3 Feb. 1998 Agence France Presse)
    Singapore, citizens (mostly Chinese) massacred, 1942
    Japan Economic Newswire/Kyodo News Service
    16 June 2004: 50,000-100,000
    13 Aug. 1984: Report by Allies after WW2 est. 5,000 k. Families claim 40,000-50,000
    Associated Press
    30 July 1995: "The Japanese military said 6,000 were killed. Singaporeans put the death toll at 50,000."
    12 Sept 1995: 30,000-40,000
    National Archives of Singapore: 8,600 reported. "[T]here were many more." [http://www.s1942.org.sg/dir_defence7.htm]
    Grenville: 5,000
    LC: 5,000-25,000 [http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/sgtoc.html]
    [ANALYSIS: There's no consensus. I have 5 low estimates ranging from 5,000-8,600. I have 5 high estimates ranging from 25,000-100,000. Three sources hedge their bets by offering both a low estimate and a high estimate. Two give a low estimate exclusively, and two give a high estimate exclusively.]
    Chalmers Johnson: "...the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese." [http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n22/john04_.html]
    Rummel blames the Japanese for 5,964,000 democides
    POWs: 539,000 (400,000 Chinese)
    Forced Labor: 1,010,000 (142,000 Chinese)
    Massacres: 3,608,000 (2,850,000 Chinese)
    Bombing/CB warfare: 558,000 (all Chinese)
    Imposed Famine: 250,000 (none in China)
    Rummel also estimates that General/Prime Minister Tojo Hideki was responsible for a lifetime total of 3,990,000 democides.
    Some guy on Internet [http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/exhibit/Index.HTM]
    Nanjing Massacre: 155,337 dead bodies
    Chinese official estimate: >300,000
    Japanese scholars:100-200,000
    Datong Coal Mine, China: 60,000 slave laborers killed
    Forced labor camps in Japan: 6,830 imported workers died
    Singapore: 5,000 Chinese k -- another estimate: 50,000-60,000 k.
    Burma-Siam RR: 12,400 POWs + 42,000 Asian wkrs
    My estimate is that 11M civilians and 4.5M soldiers died in the Asian/Pacific War. That's 15,500,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on the Japanese to one extent or another.
    Stalin [make link]:
    Deported nationalities:
    Aleksandr Nekrich, The Punished Peoples (1978): Net population losses, 1939-59, after allowance for wartime losses.
    Chechens: 590,000
    Kalmyks: 142,000
    Ingush: 128,000
    Karachai: 124,000
    Balkars: 64,000
    [TOTAL: 1,048,000]
    Kenneth Christie, Historical Injustice and Democratic Transition in Eastern Asia and Northern Europe: Ghosts at the Table of Democracy (2002)
    Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonians (1940-41): 85,000 deported, of which 55,000 killed or died
    Baltics executed during reconquest (1944-45): 30,000
    Postwar partisan war
    Lithuanians: 40-50,000 k.
    Latvian: 25,000
    Estonians: 15,000
    [TOTAL: 170,000 ± 5,000]
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997)
    citing Rummel: 530,000 Chechens and other Black Sea/Caucasus minorities d.
    citing NKVD archives: 231,000 deaths, 1943-49
    Harff and Gurr:
    Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks: 230,000 d. (1943-57)
    Meskhierians, Crimean Tatars: 57,000 - 175,000 d. (1944-68)
    Davies: 1,000,000 Volga Germans, Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, etc.
    NewsHour: some 200,000 Chechens died during the exile [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/chechnya/history.html]
    Enemy POWs never returned:
    Brzezinski: 1,000,000 total d. (incl. 357,000 Germans, 140,000 Poles)
    Davies: 1,000,000 d.
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): official figures released under glasnost
    Germans: 2,388,000 POWs taken, of which 356,000 died
    Hungarians, Romanians, etc.: 1,097,000 taken, of which 162,000 died
    Japanese: 600,000 taken, of which 61,855 died
    [Total: 4,085,000 taken, of which ca. 580,000 died]
    Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
    Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
    30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
    Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
    Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.
    Returning Soviet POWs killed after the war:
    Harff and Gurr: 500,000 - 1,100,000 repatriated Soviet nationals killed (1943-47)
    Harper Collins: 1,000,000 POWs
    Davies: 5-6M deaths, screening of repatriates and inhabitants of ex-occupied territory
    Soviet soldiers executed:
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997)
    "latest Russian estimates put the figure as high as 158,000 sentenced to be shot."
    "442,000 were forced to serve in penal batallions." [These were assigned suicidally dangerous tasks, and the only way out was death or wounds, so figure maybe half dead, half crippled.]
    Gulag during the war years:
    Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 2.4M sent to Gulag; 1.9M freed. "Official figures show 621,000 deaths in the Gulag" during WW2
    Total killed by Stalin during the war years:
    Davies: 16-17,000,000 non-war-dead
    Rummel: 18,157,000 democides
    NOTE: Numbers this high are hard to reconcile with the common estimates of 7 million Soviet civilian deaths during WW2. Even if we go with larger, more recent estimates of 17M civilian deaths, these number proposed by Rummel and Davies would leave no room for murders at German hands and deaths as a simple by-product of war.
    My Very Rough Estimate (based largely, but not entirely, on Overy, who seems well-informed and sensible.) In tenths of millions.
    Axis POWs: 0.6M
    Soviet Soldiers during war: 0.4M
    Gulag: 0.6M
    Black Sea/Caucasus Minorities: 0.2M
    Baltic Minorities: 0.2M
    Repatriated Soviets after the war: 1.0M
    Germans who died fleeing the advancing Red Army: 1.0M
    TOTAL: 4.0M
    Anglo-American Allies [make link]:
    Bombing of Germany: >305,000 (1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey); 400,000 (Hammond); 410,000 (Rummel, 100% democidal); 499,750 (Clodfelter); 593,000 (Keegan; also Grenville citing "official Germany"); 600,000 (P. Johnson)
    Bombing of Japan:
    Conventional: 260,000 (Clodfelter (citing an Official US est.); Keegan; P. Johnson); 299,484 (Clodfelter, citing Japanese source)
    Nuclear: 103,000 died outright (Keegan); 130,000 outright (Messenger);120,000 outright, 140,000 later (Our Times); 175,000 outright, 100,000 later (P. Johnson)
    Total: 330,000 (1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey); 363,000 (Keegan, not including post-war radiation sickness); 374,000 (Rummel, incl. 337,000 democidal); 435,000 (P. Johnson); 500,000 (Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War)
    Bombing of Romania & Hungary: 50,000 (Rummel)
    Individual air raids
    Berlin
    Dresden
    Hamburg
    Hiroshima
    Nagasaki
    Tokyo
    Yokahama: 5,000 (1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey)
    Mistreatment of Axis POWs [I myself don't find these accusations credible, but FWIW, here they are.]
    James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.
    Bacque [http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/970920bacques.html]
    Bacque's 2nd book, Crimes & Mercies, expands the body count to 9.3-13.7M Germans killed by the Allies after the end of the war, incl. some 2.1-6.0M civilians who died being expelled from the East. [http://codoh.com/review/revcrimes.html]
    Stephen Ambrose dismisses these claims as sloppy research. He explains that the total number of German POWs who died from all causes in US hands was 56,000 out of some 5M held. [see also http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bacque.james/] (56,000 might seem like a lot, but this would include those who were captured wounded.)
    The 1956 Maschke Commission counted 4,537 deaths. [see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager or http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/for/us-germany-pow.html]
    [Letter]
    Mussolini (r. 1922-1943)
    Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): total of 29 death sentences passed on political prisoners before 1939.
    Rummel, democides by Fascist govt. of Italy:
    Ethiopia and Libya: 200,000 [before WW2]
    Yugoslavia: 15,000
    Greeks: 9,000
    Italians, domestically: 250
    TOTAL: 224,250
    Yugoslavia:
    2 March 1999 Agence France Presse
    Number killed in Croatian-run death camp at Jasenovac
    Acc2 Croatian press: 85,000
    Official Yugoslav estimate: 700,000
    Simon Wiesenthal Centre: 500,000
    Alex Dragnic, Serbs & Croats (1992)
    k. by Ustase
    Serbs: est. range 300,000 to 1,000,000, but 500-700,000 is "generally accepted"
    Jews: 50,000
    Gypsies: 20,000
    Massacre by Germans, Oct. 1941: 4-7,000
    John Lampe, Yugoslavia as History (1995)
    300,000 Serbs k. by Ustasha
    26,000 Jews k. by Ustasha
    9,000 Slovenes executed by Italians, summer 1941
    Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 100,000
    Noel Malcolm, Bosnia: a Short History (1994)
    Muslims k. by Chetniks in Foca-Cajnice:
    Aug. 1942: 2,000
    Feb. 1943: 9,000
    Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 250,000 in shootings, camps and marches.
    Mazower, Dark Continent
    Serbs k. by Ustase: at least 334,000.
    Collaborators k. by Tito, postwar: up to 60,000
    9 July 1990 NY Times
    Communist partisans shot 70-100,000 without trial within weeks of the war's end.
    Anti-Communist emigres claim ca. 500,000 killed ("... exaggerations, said Darko Bekic, a historian in Zagreb...")
    "Total of 1,700,000 Yugoslavs were killed, both in combat and in atrocities and reprisals by and against civilians"
    Rummel, democides by perpetrator:
    Axis occupying nations: 718,000
    Chetnik partisans: 100,000
    Communists: 100,000 as partisans, 500,000 shortly after coming to power
    Ustashi government of Croatia: 655,000
    TOTAL: 2,073,000 democides (also 555,000 battle deaths, for a grand total of 2,628,000)
    Fred Singleton, Twentieth-Century Yugoslavia (1976)
    350,000 Serbs k. by Ustasha
    Marcus Tanner, Croatia: a Nation Forged in War
    Bleiburg massacre: est. range from 30,000 to 200,000 returning POWs k. by Communists (The upper number being favored by Croat nationalists)
    Ustashe camps
    acc2 Communist govt: 600,000 k. in Jasenovas
    acc2 Banac 120,000 k. in all camps
    acc2 "others": 80,000 k. in all camps
    acc2 Pres. Tudjman: 60,000 k. in all camps
    Total war deaths (according to one study)
    Serbs: 487,000
    incl. 215,000 in Nazi and Ustase camps
    Croats: 207,000
    Muslims: 86,000
    Jews: 60,000
    TOTAL: 947,000
    Johan Wüscht, Population Losses in Yugoslavia during World War Two (1963), estimates a total population shortfall of 2,210,000 in the 1948 census. After accounting for emmigration (700,000) and a drop in births (423,000), he reckons the total number of deaths caused by the war and its aftermath to be 1,100,000. He also points out that adding up all the accusations of atrocities commited during the war far exceeds this calculated number of deaths, so one of them is wrong.
    ANALYSIS: Among those events with several estimates, the medians are ...
    Serbs k. by Ustashe: 275,000
    Postwar executions by Communists (and related deaths): 175,000
    Jasenovac
    Romania:
    Rummel: 484,000 democides under kings Carol & Michael (1938-48) incl. 302,000 Jews.
    Robert Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts (1993): 185,000 Jews from Bessarabia and Moldovia murdered in "the only non-German-run extermination camp in Europe".
    France:
    Collaborators killed after liberation:
    Grenville: 10,000
    Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: 9-10,000
    Our Times: 9,000 summarily, 700 after trial.
    David Drake, Intellectuals and Politics in Post-War France: 10,000 summary executions and 791 legal executions.
    Other Western Nations, postwar purges:
    Mark Mazower, Dark Continent
    Italy: 10,000-15,000
    Netherlands: 40 executions
    Norway: 25 executions
    Post-War Expulsion of Germans from East Europe (1945-47): 2 100 000 [make link]
    Died being expelled from Poland:
    Rummel: 1,585,000
    Keegan, John, The Second World War (1989): 1,250,000
    Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979): 1,225,000
    Died, from Czechoslovakia:
    Rummel: 197,000
    Martin Sorge, The Other Price of Hitler's War (1986): 241,000 Sudeten Germans
    Keegan: 250,000
    Glaser & Possony: 267,000
    TOTAL:
    Kinder, Anchor Atlas of World History: 3,000,000
    Britannica: 2,384,000 (This covers the years 1944-46, and it includes Germans who died fleeing while the war was still raging.)
    Glaser & Possony: 2,111,000 (This includes 619,000 from "elsewhere" not listed above)
    Keegan: 2,100,000 (This includes 600,000 from "elsewhere" not listed above; it does not include some 1,000,000 Germans who (by Keegan's estimate) died fleeing while the war was still raging.)
    Rummel: 1,782,000
    Chinese Civil War (1945-49): 2 500 000 [make link]
    Bercovitch & Jackson: 100,000
    Dan Smith: 1,000,000
    Eckhardt: 1,000,000 from all causes
    Small & Singer: 1,000,000 battle deaths
    Wallechinsky: 1,200,000 battle deaths
    Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971): 1,250,000
    Gilbert, citing Ho Ping-ti: 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 total deaths
    Our Times: 3,000,000
    Rummel:
    War Dead: 1,201,000
    Democide by Guomindang: 2,645,000
    Democide by Communists: 2,323,000
    Famine: 25,000
    TOTAL: 6,194,000
    People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
    Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
    Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
    Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
    Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
    Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
    Labor Camps: 20M
    Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
    TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
    Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
    Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
    Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
    Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
    Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
    Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
    Brzezinski:
    Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
    Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
    TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
    Daniel Chirot:
    Land reform, 1949-56
    According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
    According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
    Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
    Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
    Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
    Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
    Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
    Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
    Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
    Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
    TOTAL under Mao: 70M
    Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
    Eckhardt:
    Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
    Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
    Gilbert:
    1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
    Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
    They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
    Cited by G & P:
    Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
    The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
    A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
    (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
    Guinness Book of World Records:
    Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
    On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
    In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
    The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
    Harff and Gurr:
    KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
    Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
    John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
    Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
    Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
    Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
    Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
    Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
    Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
    Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
    Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
    R. J. Rummel:
    Estimate:
    Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
    The principle episodes being...
    All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
    incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
    Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
    Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
    Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
    War: 3,399,000
    Famine: 34,500,000
    Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
    TOTAL: 72,260,000
    Cited in Rummel:
    Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
    World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
    Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
    Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
    Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
    Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
    Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
    1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
    Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
    2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
    Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
    Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
    Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
    Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
    Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
    Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
    Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
    TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
    TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
    July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
    Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
    Cong Jin: 40 million
    Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
    Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
    Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
    WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
    Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
    Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
    Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
    Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
    Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
    Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
    Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
    This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
    Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
    "If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
    "Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
    ... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)
    Tibet (1950 et seq.): 600 000
    Chinese occupation. (For the most part, it's already been included in the numbers above.)
    Free Tibet Campaign [http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact1.html]
    Tibetans killed by the Chinese since 1950: 1,200,000
    Died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984: up to 260,000
    1959 Uprising: 430,000 died
    K. in Reprisals: 87,000
    Our Times: 1,200,000
    Courtois: 600,000 - 1,200,000
    Walker, Robert: 500,000-1,000,000 (all ethnic minorities)
    Rummel: 375,000 democides inflicted on etnic minorities
    ... incl 150,000 Tibetans
    Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
    Eckhardt:
    1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
    1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
    Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
    Small & Singer say that China lost 40,000 soldiers in Tibet between 1956 and '59.

  31. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    Your communism hub does not belong under religion & beliefs. I didn't realize that World War One was caused by atheism. Wars are not caused by atheism, they are caused by politics...

  32. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 6 years ago

    @Mason

    So it seem you don't have anything yo say to this. I'm inferring I'm right then.
    Thanks !


    Atheism is not a religion, is not a political organization. You don't have Atheist committees, Atheists Churches, Atheist Civil organizations.

    There's no Book Of Atheist's Rules or Laws.
    Communism doesn't have a religion, but, for being a communist you don't have to swear to Atheism, as Atheism is not a Religion, it's only a state of mind.
    So, How can you know the communist who killed people in the 20th Cent. weren't Christians in their intimacy ??
    You get Real !!

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No I didn't get to your reply yet is all. be patient.

      That is a cop out answer to the topic.

      A red herring thrown in to say... "you can't win mason. because you cannot say Atheism is a belief or Dogma".

      I hear that about all the liberal myths and lies, and the scientific ones also. You cannot defend your postion so you claim it is not a position at all.

      Man,... what a crowd.. I think we all know well what Atheism consists of for a doctrine.

      Hahaha, good try though.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It's not a try.
        It's a fact.
        You may like it or not.
        I can't care less.
        Atheism is not a religion. Self proclaimed Atheists can be whatever they choose, and you'll never know.

        I'm not going to argue with you, because it's a waste of time.

        1. TMMason profile image74
          TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't recall asking you to talk to me, Tanty.

          You asked me questions, which I answered. I am sorry if the statistics and facts make you mad. I will try not to be right so much when talking to you from now on.

          And you match your name to a tee, eh?

          I think  it is cute. You remind me of my 6 year old niece. Questions and frustration. So cute.

          Okay?...

  33. kirstenblog profile image77
    kirstenblogposted 6 years ago

    Anyone here on the naughty step fancy some M&M's? I just found a big bag in my pocket smile

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes please - I love M&M's.

      Being reasonable is such a drag big_smile

      1. kirstenblog profile image77
        kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        On the up side reasonable people are happy to share their M&M's big_smile *passes sufi the bag of M&M's*

        1. Sufidreamer profile image81
          Sufidreamerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Sharing, hmmm...you aren't one of those commie, pink, socialist, liberal, dolphin-hating atheists, are you? mad

  34. Rod Marsden profile image86
    Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago

    The superior ones will be those who have enough common sense to save our planet and by doing so save humanity. Generally speaking, religious folk can't see the present and the future well enough to do any good.

    Agnostics and non-believers can more readily add two and two together and come up with the right answer. Agnostics and non-believers aren't looking at a past time in which humanity might have come to an end if the population did not increase and pretending that time is now when it is clearly not and hasn't been for quite a few centuries. We do, in fact, have a way of saving ourselves...the whole of humanity...wider use of the condom is part of it...but we don't have the will.

    Overpopulation resulting in more pollution and the drying up of fertile land into desert and the emptying of the oceans of fish, etc could be stopped or at least slowed down considerably but we just don't have the nerve to say enough is enough and to survive there is a line people, all people, must tow or everyone invariably, inevitably perishes.

    1. EmpressFelicity profile image85
      EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Overpopulation is not the problem it's made out to be.  If standards of living across the world increase, then the real issue in a few decades' time will be underpopulation rather than overpopulation.

      1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
        ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That's very interesting, Empress. It's the exact opposite of the evidence I've seen regarding this issue. Would you mind sharing the origins/proof behind your statement?

        I'd be pretty happy to see proof that we don't need to worry about overpopulation. And of course, overpopulation or not, we DEFINITELY need the standards of living to increase all over the world.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Really? Why? There is plenty of SPACE on the planet. We are only 6.6 Billion people, as of right now, as I am typing. You really think, that OVERpopulation is a problem? Come on, think for yourself and look at reality. smile

          1. EmpressFelicity profile image85
            EmpressFelicityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            But of course:

            http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Trea … umans.html

            "The last two generations grew up with the idea of the "population explosion". For a century the world has lived with constant upward revision of population forecasts: the only question was if the growth would be fast, or very fast. And the last generation faced the question: how many billions can this planet support? So it is a culture shock, when new projections of global population include scenarios of dramatic population decline - without any meteorite impacts, new epidemics, or famines. Or when a UN report suggests that Europe needs 700 million immigrants to maintain its age structure... Is the future population nightmare not rural Bangladesh, but rural Estonia?"

            1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
              ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hey! I missed this until just now! Thank you. I'll be reading it (hopefully) this evening, barring disaster smile

          2. 0
            lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            big_smile

            1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
              ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              How much of that space has usable resources currently? Are you NOT hearing the information about needing to find new sources of energy? Overpopulation is not just about space, it's about resources. Sure, we could cram another 8 billion people on this planet, but how are we going to feed them, clothe them, shelter them, etc. and not create a wasteland (which, by the way, is where we're already heading).

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                By integrated thinking, something that only 10% of the population actually does. Hmm...? What a concept? smile

                1. kirstenblog profile image77
                  kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  This is not something I have heard of, would you care to tell me more? Perhaps write a hub wink tongue

          3. marinealways24 profile image61
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            lol Has anyone seen how vacant Alaska is?

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol lol

            2. Rod Marsden profile image86
              Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There are places on this earth including the Sahara that are vacant of a great deal of human population because they generally lack what people need in order to survive. There are regions of Alaska that fall into this category. Mongolia is huge and for the most part uninhabited for the same reason.
              Australia looks big on a map. The thing is that most of Australia is desert. People mainly live along the coastline because there you will find the necessities of life. Vacant doesn't always mean you can move in and set up house. The north and south poles are also pretty vacant but I doubt if there will be a great many people flocking to them to settle. 


          4. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

               sure  . . . .  There is plenty of food to go around. . .
               sure  . . . .  Everyone already has sufficient health care.
               sure  . . . .  There is adequate housing . . . .
                      SURE  there is plenty of everything to supply the needs of double the population as it stands right now.

                  Everybody is getting along just fine...  lets all make more babies. I can carry the responsibility of a few more children to raise..... "NOT"

            1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
              ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              LOL I'm right there with you, Jerami.

              1. Jerami profile image79
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I find nothing more intresting than to see just far I can stretch ruberbands. even though they  Sometimes snap backinto my face.   What the haa  I can blame that too on God .NOT.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Witty comeback, but still doesn't escape the reality of the situation, that there isn't a problem. smile

                  1. Jerami profile image79
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                        That is absolutely correct..     If you can't see it; it does not exist.   Tell that to those millions of people that you have been saying that GOD is allowing to starve.

            2. Rod Marsden profile image86
              Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Agreed. Maybe some non-religious types are just as blind as some religious types. And maybe, just maybe, if we get enough people of every religious and non-religious stripe to see the problem and want to do something about overpopulation it will result in people being able to say that religious types aren't so bad at facing facts and therefore no one is superior on this particular front. It would be wonderful if that could happen.   

        2. Rod Marsden profile image86
          Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I agree that standards of living need to increase throughout the world. The question is how to go about doing it safely. Yes, I too would like to see some proof that overpopulation isn't a problem,

      2. Rod Marsden profile image86
        Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Check out the fish stocks throughout the world. Whole species of fish have disappeared through over fishing. Deserts are growing which means less places to grow food. Standards of living Western style are increasing in non-Western locales resulting in more pollution.

  35. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    Well, I see a lot of poison and hatred perpetrated by those on this forum who consider themselves Christians also. It all comes down to the individual's beliefs.

    1. twuxedo profile image60
      twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Lady you are partally correct, but I see hatred coming from both sides.
      I do not understand how it is poson could you explain better.

  36. habee profile image92
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    I'm a Christian but certainly do not consider myself better than anyone else. I never try to force my beliefs on others. IF I'm asked about my beliefs, I willingly share my feelings, but that's different. I'm not judgmental - it's not my job.

  37. habee profile image92
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Cags, I somewhat agree with you about religion - especially organized religion, which I generally shun. I do, however, believe in God and Christ. I guess I'm spiritual but not religious.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'm saddened for you Habee. sad But, don't worry, I'll get over it soon. smile lol

    2. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
      ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'm in the same boat. I can agree that religion is a business (and a pretty nasty one, at that), but I believe that God and religion are 2 different things.

  38. habee profile image92
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Actually, Cags, I'm a pretty darn happy person!

    1. wesleyacarter profile image59
      wesleyacarterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Amen

      1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
        Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Habee - I'm with you on that one. I got some Church Window Cookies to share with you and wesleycarter.   big_smile big_smile big_smile

        1. wesleyacarter profile image59
          wesleyacarterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          that would be one good reason to go back to church! are they chocolate chip?

          1. Hmrjmr1 profile image77
            Hmrjmr1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yep and more! smile smile

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'm happy for you in that aspect. smile

  39. wesleyacarter profile image59
    wesleyacarterposted 6 years ago

    i think atheists are just lazy and stubborn.

    the chaos that would ensue without the necessary traditions and social controlof religion. it is flawed, but religion is not the enemy.

    1. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. And atheism is a worse ideology than religions.

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You know this is the exact problem people are OVERLOOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Atheism IS a religion!!!!!!!!  smile

        1. marinealways24 profile image61
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I finally agree with you. Global warming is part of that religion.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Did I say anthing about Global Warming? No! I didn't.

            My reference was to make people understand Atheism and Religion are NOT two separate things. smile

          2. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So how come I'm an Atheist and don't believe in Global Warming ?
            How come I'm an Atheist and I'm not communist ?
            Wow !! I must be A First Rate Heretic !

            1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
              ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              LOL tantrum. You're a free thinker...not a heretic. IMO

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                cool
                Hi Carmen !!
                lol these guys are a joke !
                lol

                1. ncmonroe1981 profile image61
                  ncmonroe1981posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  big_smile I'm hearing you...there's a lot of funny stuff going on in the forums today!! (how do you make the shades smiley? maybe it's...B)

                  1. tantrum profile image61
                    tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    shades smilies -  : (duble point), then the word'cool' and then, : again (double point) !
                    hope it helps!
                    I'm having so much fun !! big_smile

            2. marinealways24 profile image61
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Are you liberal? I don't say all, there are some more individualized from the atheist religion than others.

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I respectfully disagree. smile

  40. 0
    lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago

    where am I? roll

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Following Cagsil. Where else ?? lol

      1. 0
        lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol lol

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Lyrics ! big_smile
          Everything OK ? I saw your list. You didn't leave any man for me !! hmm
          lol

  41. marinealways24 profile image61
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    I would like to know, if 71 percent of the Earth is water, how are we going to run out of water? Don't we have those things called water purifiers? Yes, you can purify ocean water. Why do scientist keep claiming everyone will die from thirst when we have the ability to purify ocean water?

    1. Rod Marsden profile image86
      Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      There are limitations to how much salt water can be purified. For a start not every nation has the technology or can afford the process. No one knows what the affect would be if every nation near an ocean started grabbing water out of it for purification purposes.Natural fresh water is becoming more hard to come by. Ethiopia is a basket case when it comes to the issue of fresh drinking water. There are plenty of other countries also in trouble. Some parts of Australia have been in drought now for over 15 years.

  42. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    The biggest problem with overpopulation is that in order to fix it a lot of people are going to have to stop living.
       God cain't win for loosing; He is damned if he does and damned if he don't.
       He's either letting people starve or letting them die?????

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Or,is just a figment of religionists imagination. smile

      1. nikki1 profile image59
        nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Not at all. He existed. He is a hero. I for one believe in him.
        I also know I am not the only one who does.
        Happy New Year to all.

  43. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    I have to share some more.  someone else gotta use it. They are taking tests.  back    'again'  in a bit.

      I read about a overpopulation of rabbits in Australia a while back.  Heard they were so thick and no one could fix the problem. Then ear mites spread a plague that killed most of them off.    Nature seems to have a way of balancing out in the end.  Is that true ???

    1. Rod Marsden profile image86
      Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A disease was developed to take care of the rabbit population. It was developed by man for this problem originally imported from England.

      Meanwhile cane toads, originally imported into the country from South America, are running wild. They were brought in way back in the 1930s to take care of a cane bug problem. It worked but a bigger problem was created. Cane toads don't have natural predators here in Australia and the birds we have who think they are a nice snack end up being poisoned when they eat them.

      There are other pests, such as cats that have gone bush and gone feral, that have devastated our wildlife. Nature can only do so much when humans mess up bad.

  44. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    cadsill  said      A disease was developed to take care of the rabbit population. It was developed by man for this problem originally imported from England.

    Meanwhile cane toads, originally imported into the country from South America, are running wild. They were brought in way back in the 1930s to take care of a cane bug problem. It worked but a bigger problem was created. Cane toads don't have natural predators here in Australia and the birds we have who think they are a nice snack end up being poisoned when they eat them.

    There are other pests, such as cats that have gone bush and gone feral, that have devastated our wildlife. Nature can only do so much when humans mess up bad.

        As you say....  Man messed it up and then science fixed it by fiunding a piece of nature from some place else and transpateing it! fixed the first  problem by createing another.  And down the slipery slope we go

  45. habee profile image92
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    True, Nature often corrects herself in response to the population of certain species. The problem is that man usually interjects himself into the equation. We've created all kinds of man-manipulated populations in the wild and altered the genetics of plants and animal species. It's difficult for poor ol' Mother Nature to keep up sometimes.

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

         And there may come a day that she cain't keep up.
      Mankind will always push our limits.  That's what we do.

  46. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago

    What got you to believe in him?  There are no records of his death or birth nor can they find where he was born.  He wasn't poor as some state he was and why did they wait some 40 years after the fact to write about him?  Sounds too coincidental to me.  What was going on at the time they wrote those letters that went into the Bible?  Look at history too.

    1. habee profile image92
      habeeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What about the eye witness accounts of Papias and Quadratus? Or the writings of Tacitus? Or the trial and execution of Jesus included in Jewish records?

      1. TMMason profile image74
        TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Also there are letter between the Roman prelates and their subordinates in regards to his actions and places he went. he was after all a trouble maker to them and the jews.

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Agree with this.

          1. TMMason profile image74
            TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            smile Alright, we're on a roll know.

            1. tantrum profile image61
              tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              It's a pity I can't agree with you on the other thread ! lol

              1. TMMason profile image74
                TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                LMAOROTF... yeah huh. Ahh then again it is fun disagreeing. So?...

                1. tantrum profile image61
                  tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I was only trying to be kind and civil. As I'm not, it looks I didn't achieve my goal ! lol

                  Disagreeing is fun ! so I'll be seeing you around ! big_smile

      2. Rod Marsden profile image86
        Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        One Jewish writer gave maybe a two paragraph mention to Jesus. This is proof that at least the then Jewish cult of Jesus existed and also that a man who died and was referred to as Jesus existed around the time the Bible indicates that he did.


  47. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    This is your hero?
    Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

        Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



    Kill Witches

        You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



    Kill Homosexuals
        "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    A homophobic little psychopath? lol


    ...or are we not quoting the good book here? Was god lying, and then JC came along to say "That bad stuff in the OT that was supposedly the inspired word of my dad/me/god was all bulls**t"

  48. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago

    Something to think on:  "Two main beings are directly associated with the flying vehicles, the Elohiym (the gods) and the Malak (the angels). Others include Archangels, Elders, Ministers, Saints, Watchers, and Men. There is another group which, though assumed to be living entities, are described in a manner that indicates they may be devices or machines. This group includes Cherubim, Seraphim, Living Creatures, and Beasts. Also presented are the beings that are associated with the modern UFO phenomenon by misplaced religious zeal; Satan and devils. A fleet of flying vehicles, described as the army of Yhovah, appears several times and the importance of this fleet to the Biblical narrative is seriously underrated. Close encounters from face to face conversations and beam-ups to meetings are well documented in Biblical text and are a major part of many of the Bible's more phenomenal events. The nature of Yhovah in his human form as Jesus is a grossly neglected aspect of the Bible. Another questionable facet of accepted Biblical doctrine is the Holy Spirit as an individual member of a supreme triad. Is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost a being or a spiritual force? And, do angels have wings, halos, and do they play harps? If they do, the Bible doesn't mention this, nor does it mention a devil with horns, a pitchfork or a pointed tail. "

    http://www.bibleufo.com/subbeings.htm

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Of course not. they're all middle ages symbolism.

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Isaiah 6
      Isaiah Called to Be a Prophet
      1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said

      Lucifer was an Angel who was very close to God, but later decided he wanted to be God. He started a war and was defeated by the Archangel Michael.

      Lucifer is not Satan. Satan is like the mind of Lucifer.
      Satan means advasary of the mind and soul.

      When Christ was tempted it was by the adversary in his mind.
      When he knew it was time to be killed his mind said..You can call ten thousand angels and they will save you..Christ rebuked these thoughts by saying "Satan get behind me"
      :

      Elohim does not mean Gods..it means the two aspects of God..

      1. Rod Marsden profile image86
        Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Lucifer was an old European sun god. It was decided in Medieval times, in order to bolster Christianity, to make Lucifer the same as Satan.


        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Rod wrote
          Lucifer was an old European sun god. It was decided in Medieval times, in order to bolster Christianity, to make Lucifer the same as Satan.

          ************************
          Lucifer is from ancient times. If the Pagans called the horned god Lucifer it is not from that time.
          The Sun is never associated with Lucifer of the Old Testament
          Lucifer of the Bible is-Light Bearer,  Morning star-Venus

          1. Rod Marsden profile image86
            Rod Marsdenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Lucifer is pagan yes. Old sun god yes. I am not responsible for how passages of the bible were translated into European languages such as English or the new meanings for old themes and ideas and gods this created.


      2. Lady Guinevere profile image60
        Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Wrong!  Lucifer was mad because God wanted him to worship Man and since he was the first Angel--well you can see where that went.

  49. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago

    Why are they not included in the bible?

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

         There were hundreds of manuscripts that could have been included as the inspired word of God,  But they were not those that was chosen.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        sometimes eye witnesses don't fit in a religious 'story'.

    2. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Alot of them are considered heretical in nature, like the Gnostic manuscripts, so they didn't choose them. I believe some where just repetitous in their formats and messages, etc.

  50. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 6 years ago

    Yes because they had an agenda as to why they only wanted certain things in that book.  Another thing they omitted most of the Angels that were written in those books in the 6th century and then the rest except for the three there is in the now in the 15th century.  What there is today is not what there was in the beginning when they had all the texts together.  They used the manuscripts to propogate their ability to control the Kings pockets and the church was the way they saw fit to do it through.

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