Is America a Christian nation?

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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Hi friends

Is America a Christian nation?

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  No matter how much propoganda is spread to the contrary.
  
  Edit----And no matter what unChristian fool we have for President at the moment.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  I think it is a secular country; at least after 1950, it has not been a Christian country,it is a secular country; nothing to do with the Skeptics, who think secular is synonym of a Skeptic;queer people.
  
  If you think it is a Christian country; do you think whatever wrongs Christians living in this country do, their religion "Christianity" is responsible for them? I don't think so. Jesus or Paul has not given them a free license to do whatever wrong they want to do and "Christianity" would take its burden on itself.
  
  The individuals are responsible for the wrongs they do and the country is responsible for the wrongs they do collectively and hence are entitled for the punishment of their wrongs; no atonement would come to their rescue.
  
  Do you agree with me?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, first of all, I don't know you personally well enough to call you "friend", and I'm in doubt as to whether you're my "friend", especially since you say you're Muslim, and there is no real fellowship between God's people and the Islamic religion.
  However, you have the right, I assume, to speak your mind about things, and I don't mind discussing things, to a certain point. Just wanted to set the record straight. Especially since it's been my experience that Muslims (the ones I've had occasion to speak with) push their views onto Christians while claiming benign "friendship" or lack of any ill will while speaking falsities against Jesus and true Christianity, and while "invading" my Country both from the outside and the inside via political means and social insertion.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True, religions do divide people with hatred.
  
  Looks like the history of Christianity revisited.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  Do you mean that your religion prohibits you befriending a peaceful Muslim.
  
  Please quote from Bible in this connection.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't prohibit me from befriending anyone, if "befriending" means Loving the person with God's Love and offering them help, food, clothing, shelter from the elements, etc, if they need it, and respecting them as a human being.
  It prohibits me from accepting a false friendship from you, though. It prohibits me from engaging in spiritual fellowship with you. It prohibits me from allowing false doctrine to be perpetuated in Christian circles as though it were Truth.
  
  As I posted in another thread, Christians are not to accept false doctrines; we are not to even wish you will in that false doctrine.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  I would like you to elaborate on this point. Are you doing it on your own; or it is from Bible. You cannot make a Bible yourself. It was a wrong committed by the gospel writers; being unauthorized from Jesus; by certainly you cannot repeat the same mistake yourself.
  
  Please elaborate your concepts.
  
  Thansk
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think the point is more that Americans of any religion don't make a habit of calling people "friend" unless they actually are. When somebody we don't know calls us "friend," we tend to feel suspicious. Usually it means they're trying to sell us something!
  
  Furthermore, Americans don't usually use "friend" as a form of direct address even to people who are our friends. I might say "my friend Brenda" if I'm talking about her to somebody else, but if I were talking to her directly, I'd just call her "Brenda."
  
  Just saying "Hi Brenda" or "Hi Mrs. Durham" would be more polite and raise fewer eyebrows when addressing Americans you don't know than "Hi friend Brenda Durham."
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry.
  
  But I am not American; I will address according to my tradition.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And this is a big mistake friend Paar. If you want people to listen to you, you have to address them according to their custom - otherwise they classify you as an alien or even a foe right from the start and don't give a damn to what you have to say.
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  katiem2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good point Misha
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  kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  *shrugs* Fair enough. I just think that if you genuinely want to engage Americans in conversation, you should be aware that addressing us as "friend" is generally regarded as presumptuous and off-putting.
  
  I can't speak for the Brits, Aussies, Kiwis, or Canucks hanging around the boards, but my suspicion is that they probably feel the same. The English language simply does not encourage the use of titles or respectful forms of address beyond Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms and certain job/education related titles such as Doctor, Officer, or Professor that will not generally apply to conversation on an internet forum.
  
  I know that many Eastern languages DO encourage the use of respectful forms of address (my husband's native language seems to have a different one for any relative you can imagine ), but when in Rome...
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend kerryg
  
  We just discuss here with arguments and reasons; that is the language in the discussion forums and it should be.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not a good listener are you? See - hiding behind an obviously fake user name with no profile makes you appear as a liar.
  
  Your attacks on everyone who does not believe the utter nonsense you believe followed by a claim of being "peaceful" also make you appear to be dishonest.
  
  Then using a familiar form of address to people you do not know and are absolutely not a friend of make it further clear that you are not telling the truth.
  
  This causes suspicion and I have come to the conclusion that you are working against the Muslim religion to show that all followers of Islam are liars.
  
  Which is fine with me. It is clear the Christians cannot develop an ethical code for themselves - why would Muslims be any different?
  
  Are you working for the Freemasons by any chance?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Mark Knowles
  
  Thanks God; ultimately it is fine with you.
  
  I am OK
  
  I only express my faith
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - and cutting out what I said and using just a small part of the text is pretty dishonest also.
  
  You are lying by saying you only express your faith also - still - you have convinced me.
  
  Thank you.
  
  Or are you trying to provoke an attack the same as the would-be Christian martyrs? I totally understand why they used to feed them to the lions. Is that your goal?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Mark Knowles
  
  I thought you were fine as you mentioned. If you are not fine; you may express yourself fully here; if I am not, at least others are ears for you. Are they?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said - you have convinced me and I am fine with you showing Islam in a bad light. I was just interested if you were trying to provoke an attack.
  
  Do Muslims crave being martyrs like the Christian seem to? Their bible tells them they are going to be persecuted for their faith. It is lying of course - they are going to provoke people by spreading the word and not following it.
  
  Do you?
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  kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's been irritating me for weeks, so I'm glad I tried, at least. Maybe his English comprehension skills are just really bad?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  I don't mind you making the record straight. Go ahead please with justice.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  You may check the record of Ahmadi Muslims from America itself. We Ahmadi Muslim are really peaceful and not ever involved in any Terrorist activities anywhere in the world; even at the cost of our lives.
  
  Only because of our being peaceful; the Terrorist Radical Muslim have attacked our Mosques at Lahore recently, I mentioned here in a separate thread, and killed about 100 people of our peaceful community and many are injured.
  
  You may google for it and verify as much as satisfied you.
  
  If you find anything against peaceful Ahmadi Muslims, please do mention it here. You are welcome
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  http://hubpages.com/hub/ahmadiyya-qadiani-muslims
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's very sad that people were killed! I hate the violence that terrorists impose upon groups of people!
  
  From that article, looks like the "Orthodox" Muslims have outlawed Ahmadis worshipping openly? And groups of radical Orthodox Muslims are killing Ahmadis? So...it's a religious "war", correct? Yet I always hear how "peaceful" Islam is!! Are you telling me that the average Muslim hates the Ahmadi Muslims and won't even allow them to call themselves Muslims in public? So much for the "tolerant" religion of Islam!
  
  I feel for anyone who's under attack like that.
  But I don't know what else anyone can or should do!
  
  The security forces will have to take them on and stop them if they can, if the Ahmadis refuse to defend themselves.
  
  If you're hinting that America should do something about it.....I think that's one religious war we have no business being in, because we're already in the middle of defending our own territory against radical Islam, a war that should've never come to our homeland.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends Brenda Durham
  
  Thanks for your good words for Ahmadis.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends Brenda Durham
  
  War has always two parties; this is not a war as we Ahmadis don't kill anybody. We don't look to anybody in this connection.We are no party to this "war"; even the police and Government side with the hate mongers and the killers/terrorists.
  
  Your perception of the situation is not correct.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  No even publicly; they won't allow it even privately.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  The security forces side with them; sometimes they persecute us with collaboration.
  
  I don't want any help from you. I am just telling you that you cannot imagine as to how much peaceful we are. You wanted to check my peacefulness; I stated this in this context.
  
  Does your religion (Catholic or Protestant; you have not mentioned) prohibit you to befriend us Ahmadis peaceful Muslims?
  
  Please mention your clear faith, as I do, and if you cannto befriend us people, then please quote from such scriptures to support your viewo point further.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True, in fact, you are so peaceful, your attacks on everyone else here are starting to put us to sleep.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  No, I don't hint at any help from America. We will solve this problem ourselves. We are discussing here religions and beliefs; it is not a Political Forum; this evil has to be eradicated from the roots of religions and the beliefs.
  
  Americans history is imbued with doing wars, at least for the last 100 years, into the others territories, sometimes thousands of miles away; to Japan, to Vietnam etc; there you are not correct; they make it a business of them a roaring business; correct me if I am wrong.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wars in aide to others. Like when Saddam was imprisoning women, girls, raping, and using a machete to cut their heads off.
  
  Do you mean, we shouldn't help people?
  That each country can do anything to their citizens?
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely. It is none of your business Deb, seriously. It's a pity you don't see it
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really?
  So humans don't matter.
  
  If someone surrounded someone you love and was hurting them,you feel no one should help? Just mind their own business?
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How many Iraqis in Iraq did you love?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All of them. They are human.
  Is that really why you don't think we should help them? Because they are different?
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Deb, you disappointed me. There are at least three different lines that invalidate your answer. Probably there are more, those are just the ones that came to mind first.
  
  1. So you loved all Iraqis. Including Saddam and his little helpers. They are human, right? Why did you open war on them then? Tough love?
  
  2. So you loved all Iraqis. Why did you install Saddam there then? Tough love again?
  
  3. So you loved all Iraqis. What is that special about Iraqis? Do you love all chechens? Russians were killing them in quantities, why did not you open a war on Russia? How about Zimbabwe? Israel? Do you you love all of them? Why are you not sending your soldiers there to stop atrocities? You obviously don't love all the humans equally...
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  a good person will try to help people when needed
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Equating Vietnam and WWII? Yeah, ok...
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He doesn't have to be your friend, Brenda. If you're a Christian as you claim, he is your BROTHER, which obviously, makes him a LOT closer than a friend. Or do you selectively edit Christian doctrine to suit personal bias?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is he my brother?
  
  Jesus said whoever does the will of the Father is His family.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And anyone else is the Enemy?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are they?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was a question. From your statements - you appear to think so - yes.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not the enemy.
  The enemy attacks, either physically or verbally with insinuations and/or insults aimed with ill intent, therefore putting the opposition on the defensive.
  
  So, while you may be MY enemy, I'm not YOUR enemy.
  Fathom?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I fathom. You are refusing to take personal responsibility and it is all me. I get it. You think I am attacking you when in fact you are the one doing the attacking. Yes - no responsibility for you. All down to the homos/leftists/atheist/muslims/whatever not doing what god sez. You are not responsible.
  
  Did I get that right?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now now Mark.
  Are you trying to put me on the offensive?
  
  I thought you were enjoying the fact that I've had to defend myself from your insults ever since I met you on here?!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all. I was just stating the truth. I know you are not a fan of the truth - but that is it. I do not believe I have ever insulted you Brenda. I may make fun of your ridiculous beliefs and point out how obnoxious your behavior is, but - that is just being honest.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, you're "famous" around this neck of the woods. lol pardon my little colloquialism there. Or not. Nothing wrong with that! I even respect your talent and ambition and hard work.
  However, the day you said what you said about how your grandmother would've "strangled" me "in a field somewhere" and save others from doing so, was way over the line. It was a direct attack on me personally. Not just a sentence or two or three or four in opposition of my views, but indeed a personal attack of major proportions on a public site like this. But hey, you apparently make money for HubPages staff, so much so that they let you get by with such overt attacks on people (I don't think I'm the only one you've subdued likewise!?)
  
  You get by with the proverbial murder around here, Mark (so-to-speak in a commonly-understood phrase). Do you not like that? Are you looking for someone who actually stands up to you or what? (I'm sure there have been others, but anyway...)
  
  But hey....I think it really galls you that I DON'T get nasty like you do. I think it irritates you to no end that I continue to tell you I LOVE YOU with the LOVE OF GOD.
  God Loves you Mark!
  Tell me, what name do you think God might change yours to, when you get born-again?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i am not intending to argue but just point out facts when the oppertunity presents itself.
  
  I think that it is written that no one knows the will of God.
  Other than to Love the Lord God with all their harts and love their neighbor as thy self.
  We can only know a small portion of what the will of God is.
  
  Some one else that we think not; might be doing the will of God also. Just a thought.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You have a point, Jerami.
  At least......per Old Testament teachings.
  God used Jonah and Balaam and others to speak and do His will, even though they balked at it and sometimes tried to twist His plans around for their own selfish reasons.
  But I'm not so sure that God does that anymore, since Jesus (the perfect Will of the Father) gave His sacrifice.
  Twenty One Days would be glad if you interjected those thoughts into the discussion about the "Anointing" in the CD thread I bet. He's been berating us there for not engaging in more discussion about that, and he's ignored my input. haha
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God use King Cyrus and Alexander the Great to do his will. And I think that they also believed in the God of the hebrews. They also had other gods.
  The Roman Empire was even doing the will of God.
  
  If we want to go a bit farther on that line of thought... The Beast and False Prophet that is spoken of in Rev. 13 that did/is doing/will do, is the will of God.
  
  For me that is all the more reason that we should not judge anyone, cause we never know who is doing the will of God.
  
  Somtin like that anyway?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Umm...no.
  Just because God used people to do His will doesn't mean they weren't judged for the intent of their hearts!
  I'm not sure Jonah or Balaam ever repented.
  But Jacob did, and Saul did. And God changed their names, even, as a sign of their willingness to walk with Him.
  Jacob became Israel. Saul became Paul.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't remember where I read a lot of stuff that I have read, beleived and remembered.
  I read how the religious leaders of Jeruslem rode out to meet Alexander the Great as he was marching his army to Jerusalem to conquor it.
  I believe that the religious folks back then that Cyrus and Alexander were anointed. and instructed to do Gods will. Many of that time didn't think so.
  
  Anyway this is a very complex issue.
  And I gotta go and get some of my work done. see ya later.
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the good book says he that has faith in Christ Jesus is the children of God
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL I love the way you feel the need to state you are a "peaceful" muslim.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Paul Wingertposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The US is not a Christian nation. Under the Constition, one has the right to their personal beliefs. There happens to be more Christians, but so what. I can open up a Satan Worship gathering next to a Catholic Church and there's nothing anyone can do about it, legally.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really?
  I'm sorry to hear that.
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  in God we trust
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are a lot of Christian, but there are many other religions too. Not all of us has been fooled by the Pauline doctrine.
  
  Propaganda?
  
  Christianity started in the the Roman province Judea
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  America was founded by a bunch of people who wanted to get away from the religious nutjobs in england you moron. And even as a british guy, I am well aware that the american constitution is not a christian document and that your country is not christian.
  
  It may be populated by more christians than other religions or non religions, but that doesnt mean it is a christian "nation".
  
  If anything, as society progresses and people become more intelligent, unfounded religious beliefs seem to be dying out.
  
  Ok, its dying out much more slowly in the hillbilly redneck towns, but anywhere that is more civilised, is discarding religion more and more as time goes on.
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  kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We are a predominantly Christian nation (~80%) founded on enlightenment ideals, including the principle of separation of church and state, and home to citizens practicing virtually any religion in the world that you could name, including no religion at all.
  
  The World Factbook's 2007 estimates:
  
  Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4%
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  80% go to church sometimes but all are not christians
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  sabrebIadeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Overall, 42% of Americans attend church weekly or almost weekly
  http://www.gallup.com/poll/125999/missi … least.aspx
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are many religions here, not just Chrsitian
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  eternaltreasuresposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  speaking on a broad sense, America is not a Christian nation as a whole because for you to say that, the population should be 100% Christian, although I believe there are Christians in America.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Our friend Brenda Durham claims that America is a Christian nation; over to Brenda Durham with regards
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  Hokeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you do a little research you will see that most of the founding fathers thought Christianity a dangerous and outdated doctrine.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is public record they went to church actually. You can also research that if you are researching things. I do find it scary that some people are practicing revisionism, so that some things that are causing little problems can be dealt with. You need to be super careful of your sources, for this reason. I mean if its the truth of these matters you are after.
  
  Someone can present you with anything, but is it true or not? How can we know? That, is its own whole study of things...
  
  Many want christianity to be dangerous, and outdated. I still think its the best worldview, that would make our world a better place for all people , overall. Loving, peaceful, forgiving, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. I am speaking of the teachings of Jesus. Not everything else so much that came later on. Jesus, the Christ, is what Christianity is.
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  Hokeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
  When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is called leftist revisionist history.
  
  Go read the writings of the founders and you will see the unmistakable influence and interjections of Christian doctrine and beliefs. To sling that BS about the founders is a joke. They lived and breathed thier faith... denying it does not change it.
  
  Go read thier own works...
  
  That is hogwash.
  
  http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=78
  
  Anyone who states the founders... "had no use for Christianity"... has never read a word that they, the founders, wrote.
  
  Go to the source, thier own writings, you cannot help but see the influence of faith and Christianity throughout the bodies of their works.
  
  And that is just a fact.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hi friend Hocky
  
  Just tell me killing of 100,000,000. natives before the year 1700 is doing of the Christianity in America or it is the responsibilty of the Skeptics? Was it done peacefully with guns?
  
  Anyone or everyone please
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Muslims have no room to talk about peace and love, paas. Whats the matter, no reply for the post I made earlier in regards to friends and Islam.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The vast majority of the founding fathers have it in public records, that they were parts of various christian denominations. A few didn't claim to be christian, but still had some very interesting quotes regarding belief in a God, etc.
  
  The US used to be Christian, and the presidents of the US have sought counsel from the wisest christians they could find, during hard times, when in need of wisdom.
  
  Regardless of what you believe on this topic, its a very interesting observation for us all to see, that it definitely used to be proud to be a Christian Nation, and did very very well and prospered and became a super power. I am not saying that it is NOT a Christian Nation now, but that many are trying hard to make it otherwise.... People are taking a different course than our forefathers, which is fine, but then have what comes with that. If Christianity is true, and people end up mocking God then would we be surprised that this country struggles now more than ever? Just sharing some observations. If a God is real and a nation honors him, it makes sense he would bless that nation. If that God is real, and a nation in essence "give him the finger", then he may not feel so inclined to continue heaping on the blessings. What I am saying, happens to jive with the teaching of the Bible, which may or may not be true. Its just food for thought, and very interesting.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It certainly is.
  
  Destruction of the indigenous people.
  Forced slavery.
  Dropping an atomic bomb on a civilian population.
  
  You sure you are claiming these were the actions of a proud christian nation? Dear me - no wonder your religion causes so much conflict. Would you prefer it if segregation was bought back?
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, are you familiar with Jesus, and what he taught?
  
  I think you must not be, to so miss my points.
  
  If you use actions that go against Christianity to begin with, as your argument, what makes you think anyone will buy that?
  
  Its still true, that there is evil in the world, and that the forefathers that helped to make this country what it is today, were Christians predominantly.
  
  We don't dare want to get into the history of nations where "no God" was their belief system, so therefore anything "goes".
  
  I will ask that you be a bit more reasonable and judge a bit more fairly. Assuming you want to be taken seriously.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do want to be taken seriously. You are the one claiming that the actions of America were of a proud Christian nation. I am pointing out some of the wonderful things they perpetrated.
  
  What has Jesus got to do with it? He never existed. I know what his followers do.
  
  How do you then justify the growing of the US into a super power by Christians when it involved the systematic destruction of a people already living there?
  
  Confused. What exactly are you proud of? Slavery? Segregation? The atomic bomb? Infecting black servicemen with syphilis? Vietnam? What?
  
  How is this appropriate to this:
  
  Jesus was good with slavery and destroying the native American then? I wrote a hub about this recently. Tell me what you think:
  http://hubpages.com/hub/christians-on-hubpages
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hell, ya!
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Why would anyone ask such a question, and who cares?
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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LeanManposted 13 years ago
Is Saudi Arabia a Muslim nation?? If so why are so many in the queue to leave to Bahrain at the weekend for the beer and the prostitutes??
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Secondly,
Each individual is responsible for his or her actions.
But indeed the Nation is responsible as a whole to.....get this now.....to God Himself. Since we claim (and are) a Christian nation, then to whom would we be responsible? To other nations? Nope. And you might also want to remember (even if this hurts your ears) that your Muslim "Allah" is not the Christian God.
You might want to elaborate on what "wrongs" you're suggesting that America has done and needs "punished" for.
So, no, I don't agree with you. Be clearer about your intent, and then I'll be able to either agree with you or disagree with you.

I will add to my first response that the agenda of Islam has had on-going help from inside by secularists who oppose Christianity, as evidenced by the post above this one.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Except if your homosexual, then you are responsible to Christian morals.
  
  Christians are not responsible to anyone, including themselves, hence they do what they want and snub anyone who criticizes them. Then they claim to be victims of Satan's work when it all comes crumbling down around them.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't like America being a Christian-based nation, you could always look into obtaining citizenship somewhere else.
  While you're at it, please take Barak Obama with you.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And, there we have it, the ultimate in religious hypocrisy, hatred and intolerance. Thank you, Brenda, for demonstrating the true nature of Christianity.
  
  Christians will sin, but everything will be okay, but if you sin and aren't a Christian, get out now, or else.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, don't get mad at me for your own desire to make America a lawless nation.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
  --Hebrews 13:4
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very good.
  Keep going, Q.
  Eventually, you might actually run into some Scriptures about Salvation; betcha won't have the guts to quote those. I dare ya.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is too much to copy/paste from this page, however you are free to read it and weep.
  
  http://www.missiontoamerica.org/marriage/divorce.html
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is salvation to you?
  
  Do you fit Yahshua's description of someone who follows God from what the scriptures say?
  
  Brenda pray and you will be shown the way if you are sincere.
  
  And by the way, our motto is "In God we trust"
  That doesn't make it a Christian Nation. Yahshua is not God
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you reject and mock God, why would you want the forgiveness he offers? That doesn't seem quite right.
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  Paul Wingertposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The world would be a happier place if people would do away with religion all together. Christianity is just another man made religion just like all the others. World history will show that Christianity make Islam look like saints when it comes to violence and hatred.
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Paul, If you study the prophets of a religion, Like of Islam and Christianity, in those facts you will find which is the peacable religion.
  
  Its a common thing to observe, that people take the heretics of a religion then use those heretics as the means to judge that religion. This is a bad tactic to copy of others that have done it. You don't get any close to the truth, good or bad of anything. I see that is what you are doing however. So I wanted to bring it to your attention. It doesn't work, and fails straight off.
  
  For real truth on this topic, look into the actual prophets and what they said.
  One preaches conversion at the tip of a sword, one spilled buckets of its own blood for what it believed. The heretics that came after, and go against each prophet, should not be held up as the example. Its a lie, and was actually spoken of in at least the Christian Scriptures. It was predicted. A bad way to make a conclusion though.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  I think American people have voted for Barak Obama in majority as per the democratic set-up as per the Constitution of America. Is it no so; and he is no Muslim, perhaps a Catholic, I am not sure though?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He is a fence-straddler. He certainly isn't "A" Christian because he spouts unChristian things from his place of power. He may be Muslim, but he never really makes it clear WHAT he is.
  Catholic? No.
  
  He perpetuates the "religion" of liberalism, doing whatever makes one feel good at the time; and the "religion" of manipulating everyone he can in whatever arena he can.
  
  Supposedly, yes, America's "democratic set-up" voted him in, but who knows, what with the fraud and corruption of backers like ACORN and his other ties to Chicago gangster groups?
  
  But NO it wasn't per the Constitution of America because our Constitution was spat upon the day America allowed to be nominated a man who openly perpetuated socialism into his Campaign and he wasn't immediately dismissed from his nominated position.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  Please excuse me; are you a Catholic?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  NO, I'm not Catholic.
  
  I'm not really anything except a simple Christian, a believer in God, and Jesus is my Savior.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Brenda Durham
  
  Please be frank; if you are not a Catholic or Protestant, then you must be a JW or a Mormon.
  
  Christian only belive in Trintiy; they do't believe in the Creator-God Allah YHWH who is the real savior.
  
  Jesus was only a mam, a son of man; it is only the cunning Paul and the Church who carved a god and son of god from this air or myth or imported it from the pagans.
  
  Sorry, I don't agree with you in this.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No I'm not a JW nor a Mormon.
  
  I am simply a born-again Christian. If I were to choose any denomination, I suppose it would be Baptist, since I was raised that way and most Baptist Churches do preach the Word.
  
  But a person can be simply a Christian without joining any particular Christian church.
  Christ's true "Church" is in the hearts/souls of every Bible-believing Christian. We are collectively the "Bride of Christ".
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am a christian, I have read the koran, I found nothing in it that goes against the Bible. a true muslum worships alla, which means the god of all creation. some muslims have gone astray, just like some christians go astray
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm...then, does the Koran tell of Jesus's divinity?
  And does it say that we must be born-again to enter Heaven?
  And does it say Christ died for the sins of the world, but that we must accept Him as Savior in order to be born-again?
  And....well, you get the picture, right?
  I'd say the only "parallel" between Islam and Christianity is that both religions claim to know the Creator. With Islam, "claim" is the key word; while Christianity actually makes sense.
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Christeneposted 13 years ago
No.

The reason colonists came to the Americas to begin with was for the right to practice their religion without persecution. Religious freedom is one of our defining attributes.

It happens that the majority of Americans are Christian in one form or another, but we are not, by design, a Christian nation.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Christene
  
  I had the impression that the Catholics Protestants from different European countries came to America in the beginning in search of wealth; most of them were perhaps condemned culprits and they occupied these lands by force by killing the Red-Indians; I don’t know the exact figure. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am speaking of the ancient America before the year 1700, not the present one, please. Just to make the records straight as our friend Brenda Durham says.
  
  It is not they were under persecution in their countries; rather they were the persecutors of the indigenous peoples here.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
"Okay, first of all, I don't know you personally well enough to call you "friend", and I'm in doubt as to whether you're my "friend", especially since you say you're Muslim, and there is no real fellowship between God's people and the Islamic religion."

Wow....if that isn't a classic example of religious bigotry and elitism I don'tknow what is.....

Good job Brenda....

This mentality explains a lot, though...

How sad.....
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Car Donationsposted 13 years ago
You know, at first I wanted to say no. But I cannot allow certain individuals that come into my life affect my answer. Yes, we are christian. However, as God intended, we are not perfect. We still are human and make mistakes. Many people fail at resisting temptation and not following the golden rule. Too many people can't face the facts that there are other people in the world. However, not many people wake up in the morning wishing to do "evil" onto others. We just do what is best for us. As life should teach us as we mature, life is all about balance or moderation. Life is a balance. Just as our bodies and the earth rely on a delicate balance to survive. If people could learn to think for themselves and help others at the same time, life would be more peaceful. I guess this is the way it is..
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Car Donations
  
  Please elaborate the golden rule; what is this, i have never heard about it?
  
  Who made it golden? Is it from Bible or some other Christians have attempted at making another Bible, as the previous one failed miserabley; at every juncture of life.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your hate for the Christians is obvious in every post.
  Why?
  Allow God to deal with people
  You should judge yourself first and when clean ask God if he will make you his judge
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Deborah Sexton
  
  You are wrong there; I don't hate Christians. In fact I love all the followers of all the religions and even the Skeptics. I don't hate Paul even; but that does not deter me exposing the false creeds and pointing out the untruth in them. Paul was a false Prophet as was Joseph Smith Jr., and hence the suffered killing as per Deuteronomy. I don't mind if God forgives them; as I don't judge them; they will be judged by Him; but I will express my faith loud and clear. Truth may hurt others sometimes but ultimately it will give peace to them.
  
  I think it helps.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So write a hub instead of saying it over and over. I'm not a Christian and even I am tired of seeing it in every post.
  
  I don't believe in the Muslim doctrine, and neither do most in America, but you don't see us telling you over and over.
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Pcunixposted 13 years ago
I sure hope not.

If America ever actually became a Christisn nation, I'd be forced to find somewhere else to live.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
America is not a Christian Nation, but is a religious Nation. As someone(Kerryg) has already demonstrated- 4% of Americans have no religious ties whatsoever.

Someone is or has some sort of religious ties to one of hundreds of religions.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
Ask Vietnam?

Ask Iraq?

Ask Palestine?

Look South... One America bombs the other.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
"The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma." — Abraham Lincoln.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
America is filling its place; doing its job.

Like every other dominant power. When America is no longer in power, the next ruling nation will be just the same.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
I saw a great clip the other day of an American soldier yelling at a group of Middle Eastern protesters, he said

"We are here for your f*#*kin freedom so back up"

Is America there to give freedom or to take freedom?
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ediggityposted 13 years ago
Is America a Christian Nation? No, it is a Constitutional Republic, which is based on a Christian foundation, and occupied with a majority of Christians.

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!

American Religious Identification Survey 2008
http://livinginliminality.files.wordpre … t_2008.pdf
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. Some honesty for a change.
  
  I cut the nationalistic garbage out. Hope you don't mind.
  
  'Specially as the sea is a sort of muddy brown right now.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't mind, I'm always honest. We are proud of our national heritage. Usually, people who aren't American don't understand that and attack it with comments like garbage.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I think most people do actually. Loved the way you destroyed the native people by the way. Very Christian.
  
  Good for you - I am certain you are very, very proud. Probably convinced yourself it never happened.
  
  I am liking "brown"for the sea also - not really shining but - does "brown" work for you?
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I was right there slaughtering, pillaging, and stirring up the debauchery. You got me pegged. I didn't realize you had a time machine.
  
  Freedom isn't free man....freedom isn't free.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I understand. You claim the good stuff now, but pretend the bad stuff was nothing to do with it. Yes I get it.
  
  Good for you. Very, very proud of your national heritage. "slaughtering, pillaging, and stirring up the debauchery".......
  
  Well done.
  
  *clap clap clap*
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, maybe I can borrow your time machine and take it all back. For someone who believes in evolving, you sure are living in the past. What's done is done, and now we have the United States of America. You can't say that without a smile.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Odd - you are not proud of it now? Weird, in fact. Dishonest would be another way of putting it.
  
  Are you proud of your national heritage - or is "what's done is done"?
  
  Dear me.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Main Entry: her·i·tage
  Pronunciation: \ˈher-ə-tij, ˈhe-rə-\
  Function: noun
  Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from heriter to inherit, from Late Latin hereditare, from Latin hered-, heres heir — more at heir
  Date: 13th century
  1 : property that descends to an heir
  2 a : something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor : legacy, inheritance b : tradition
  3 : something possessed as a result of one's natural situation or birth : birthright <the nation's heritage of tolerance>
  
  VERY PROUD!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - semantics. Good for you - very, very well done. Yes - you are a genuine Christian all right. No morals. None.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was my birthright that's what heritage is. What do you expect me to do? Mark, I am sorry I cannot go back in time like you, and save all of the people who were killed. I realize that I am a sinner, and that is why I pray to God for forgiveness everyday. I also pray for you.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend ediggity
  
  Sins are not hereditary and there is no origian sin. If you ask forgiveness; it is quite rational and understandable; only that is expected from one to do.
  
  I agree with you.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Feel free to pray for me if that makes you feel better. Personally I don't care who or what you prey to as it can make zero difference.
  
  But you have confused me. You said you are very proud of your heritage - now you are sorry you cannot go back and save all the people your ancestors murdered and enslaved.
  
  Which is it?
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, heritage, by definition is a birthright, which I am very proud of. I cannot help what the founders of the country did to establish the American roots. All I can do is work everyday to make this country a better place for the future. I'm sorry if it is a hard concept for you to understand. I realize it can be confusing, but unless you are American, I guess you will never comprehend. Godspeed.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, it is not confusing. You are proud of your heritage yet wish you could go back and save all the people your ancestors killed (your heritage).
  
  No - considering the other nonsense you claim to believe - this is not particularly unreasonable at all. You cannot help what they did, but you are proud of them. No - compared to the Jesus nonsense - not too bad.
  
  Perhaps if you stood back and thought about it for a moment you might realize how contradictory that is - but I suspect you will never be able to understand that because that would mean rational thinking and it seems you never had to learn that particular skill.
  
  ciao
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never said I wish I could go back and do anything. I said I can't go back. Stick to writing stories Mark, you are good at making things up. Like I said, a non American just wont understand. Good luck in France, or Italy, or wherever you are.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I understand just fine. I lived in your country for 10 years, am married to an American and have the right to live and work there if I choose. I understand people like you very well - don't you worry.
  
  Good luck with your cognitive dissonance.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But are you an American? I'm glad you like to take advantage of our work opportunities, but insult us at the same time.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh don't worry - there are people just like you all over the world. You may delude yourself into thinking that no outsider could comprehend but - this is called "hubris." Look it up.
  
  Please quote me insulting all Americans. I know that lying is a part of your religious belief system, but still.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is it always this hard for you to answer a question with a straight answer? I didn't quote you as doing anything, you did it yourself. Anyone can read through all of your posts and see how disrespectful you are to the USA, and then you have the gall to bring your work and your wife into the conversation. Real classy Mark. I'm still praying for you bud, and God bless the US.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - anyone can read through this thread and I did not insult all Americans. And if telling the truth is "being disrespectful" then I don't know what to say to that. Or are you now denying the massacre of the indigenous people?
  
  Please quote me insulting you ("but insult us at the same time") or withdraw that lie. Thanks.
  
  As I said - go ahead a pray and ask the invisible Sky Daddy to selectively bless a part of the world all you like. You just sound like a nationalistic religious fanatic.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  How many natives were killed by the European settlers in American Lands prior to the year 1700.
  
  Any guess or figures with sources please.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend ediggity
  
  I appreciate your love for your country. Every country is good as its land , sea, rivers,mountains, birds , animals have been created beautiful by the Creator-God Allah YHWH . I am not an American; but I love American State; I can't hate it or its inhabitants; however much I may differ with the policies of the American Politicians.
  
  The same is true for every country of the world. These are parts of our Universe.
  
  You can love your country as do any other person living in any country of the world; that does not allow one to rule on other countries and nations.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's great man stop by anytime for a visit.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend ediggity
  
  Thanks for your invitation for a visit; may be after 5/6 years I happen to visit you and stop by.
  
  Until then; peace
  
  Regards
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one rules the other countries. You know most of those we have helped, asked us to.
  
  And when it rains everyone gets wet. That's the way it goes.
  Many countries have sacrificed a few to save the many.
  
  For those who don't like America...leave
  
  Many have said they are building Nuclear bombs.
  So to try to stop them and save the rest of us, it took war
  
  Not everything is a red herring, agenda, or conspiracy.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Mark Knowles wrote for ediggity :
Loved the way you destroyed the native people by the way. Very Christian.

Good for you - I am certain you are very, very proud. Probably convinced yourself it never happened.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

How many natives were killed by the European settlers in American Lands prior to the year 1700.

Any guess or figures with sources please.

Anyone please mention the figures.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Hi friends

I had asked a question which nobody responded. I researched in Google and get the following data:

The Annihilation of the Native Americans

Sometimes it seems that this is the way historians decide how many Indians lived in the Americas before the European Contact. As The New York Public Library American History Desk Reference puts it, "Estimates of the Native American population of the Americas, all completely unscientific, range from 15 to 60 million." And even this cynical assessment is wrong. The estimates range from 8 to 145 million.

The Death Toll:

In American Holocaust, Stannard estimates the total cost of the near-extermination of the American Indians as 100,000,000.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#America

Please improve upon the figures, if these are wrong.

If America is a Christian nation; then they were aggressors and have killed 100,000,000. persons; they may divide the numbers in Catholics and Protestants as they like.The Christianity should at least own it.

If America is an Atheist Skeptic nation; then Atheism should take this responsibility being aggressors' they have killed 100,000,000. persons ; they may divide the numbers in Catholics and Protestants as they like.They should at least own it.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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ediggityposted 13 years ago
Ask and ye shall receive:
Mark Knowles says:

"Thanks. Some honesty for a change.

I cut the nationalistic garbage out. Hope you don't mind.

'Specially as the sea is a sort of muddy brown right now. wink"

That "nationalistic garbage" Mark, is a direct insult to the American people, because those songs I quoted are part of our national heritage, our birth right as Americans. Additionally, I like how you TRIED to poke fun at our water situation right now. I'm glad you like to make jokes about that also. It really shows your true character. One day you will realize you don't have to be mean to people Mark.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - semantics. Very good. Yup - you are a genuine Christian - that is for sure. The birth right you took from the native Indians? That the one? The shining sea that you have allowed to turn a muddy brown? No responsibility for you? All very, very proud moments for you.
  
  As I said - good luck with the cognitive dissonance.
  
  Dear me.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Way to show more disrespect and attack my religion. I challenge you to ask your better half if she knows the words to those songs. Like I did actually say, work hard everyday to make MY country a better place.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You have to earn respect where I come from. I assume you have read your book and know what your religion says about me?
  
  Yet you think you deserve respect? Why is that exactly? As I said - there are people just like you all over the world. This is how wars get started.
  
  I am sure my better half does know the words to those songs. She is also a minority, which actually does make a difference in your great country - whether you are aware of it or not.
  
  I too know similar songs that I had drilled into me in school. Nationalistic garbage to ensure a steady supply of people ready to fight for the cause (whatever that may be today). Sorry you cannot understand that.
  
  God Bless The Queen!!!
  Deutschland Uber Alles!!
  
  Or whatever...............
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's just it Mark, I don't want your respect. It's called common courtesy. You don't have to act mean to people just because you don't agree with what they say. My religion says you will meet your maker, and have to explain to him what you've done in your life. It has nothing to do with you and I.
  
  It doesn't matter to me whether or not your wife is a minority. What does that have to do with anything? She is still an American. America is a melting pot full of different cultures.
  
  It also doesn't matter to me what songs you learned in school, and whether or not you want to disrespect your own country. Please just don't disrespect my country or the people of America.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will disrespect you all I like. You do not deserve one iota of respect. Sorry - you have to earn that - and you are not doing so.
  
  Your religion says a lot more than that - But I guess if you are proud of a heritage that includes a nation built on slavery and murder and demand respect for it - I suppose you can deny that as well.
  
  You have learned the songs well grasshopper.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like I did say, you continue to show your true character. You are not only disrespecting me, you are disrespecting America and the American people. Again, I ask for no respect, just that you please don't disrespect.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will disrespect you all I like - you deserve it. Love the way you managed to avoid any and all discussion that suggest you take some personal responsibility as to why you get disrespect.
  
  Yup - genuine Christian all right. Ahhh semantics. No native Americans were killed in the making of this movie.
  
  Love it that you feel you can hide behind a fake user name and still demand that I do not "disrespect you." - Odd - that almost never happens in the real world.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are not only disrespecting me, you are disrespecting America and the American people.
  
  What is it with your infatuation with killing native Americans? You sound like a broken record. What are you talking about fake username? That's just what it is a username.
  
  Why do you keep insisting that I demand you do not disrespect me? I've never made a demand from you. I ask that you don't disrespect America and the American people, because that is what you are doing when you call our national songs "garbage", and make fun of the oil spill in our national waters.
  
  Disrespect me all you want, I don't really care. Please just leave my country and religion out of it.
  
  You know, you could just say, "Hey man, sorry, I didn't mean to disrespect your country and religion. I just have a different point of view about the situation"
  
  But everyone knows you are always right Mark, so here you go...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As I said - your religion teaches you not to accept any responsibility. This is why I find it so very offensive. Make it about me disrespecting America and God? LOL
  
  I think your religion is offensive garbage, I love America, but think it's past is utterly disgusting and we should learn a lesson from it so as not to repeat those past actions - this applies to the past of my own country as well.
  
  And - I am disrespecting you.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Booh Hoo, I'm hurt, Mark disrespected me everyone. I'm not making it about anything. Why don't Man up, call a spade a spade, and accept responsibility for what you said when you disrespected America and the heritage of the American people. (You see I, which means me, fit into the American people category. So, while trying to focus your disrespect on me, it was actually directed toward all Americans, even your better half.)
  
  Andddd that's a wrap folks. You have shown your true colors and disrespect for me and America, and I've shown mine (red/white/blue)
  
  Have fun on the Riviera, I'm off to the beach
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  WizardOfOzposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WOW, you are such a drama queen.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you are such a Wizard.
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  Thorn058posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  actually ediggity you don't speak for all Americans or the United States in general so please stop representing your feelings and remarks as those of the general populace. As an American I am not the least bit offended by Mark Knowles words nor do I feel disrespected. He has made several valid points in this discussion especially about the use of song.
  
  He expressed a very valid point in that if you are going to make the claim that America is or was founded on the principles of Christianity than the actions of those professed Christians towards native peoples has not exactly been inline with the teachings of Christ. In fact the treatment of Native Americans continues to be stain on this country even to this day. You don't need your overly dramatic time machine statements to witness this since the American government has broken every treaty it has ever made with Native American tribes and still continues to give them the shaft to this day.
  
  So forgive me for interjecting myself into something that did not involve me but I say speak for yourself and speak to the topic at hand and do not pretend to speak for everyone. If you feel disrespected that is one thing, i certainly don't.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Democratic America-American government has broken every treaty it has ever made with Native American tribes'
  
  What a democracy!
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  Thorn058posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is not a shocker paarsurrey but rather it is a the nature of man that repeats itself throughout history. The strong always make the rules with the provision that they can change the rules as they see fit. A conquered people will always be at the mercy of the good graces of those that conquered it. This isn't a American construct but rather a human one.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never said I did speak for all Americans in the United States. I respect your right to say whatever you like in this matter. You have the right to do that in America, because of your heritage. Whether you agree with it or not. The very meaning behind the songs I quoted are a direct result of that freedom. The point is, you nor I as Americans can change what happened in the past to anyone. We can only work hard to change the future.
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  Thorn058posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ediggity says "You are not only disrespecting me, you are disrespecting America and the American people."
  
  You have repeated this type of sentiment several times in your discussion with Mark and while he may be disrespecting you you can't not make the assumption that he is offending the rest of America or its people. By making this statement you are in fact claiming to speak for one and all. Better to say as an American I feel you are disrespecting me and what I hold this country to be about and not try to represent the general feelings of a very complex and varied country.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think mark and ediggity should end the matter here and come to a reasonable and peaceful position
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Me too. Marks right, I'm wrong, it's over. God Bless the USA.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God bless the USA!
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you disrespect the heritage of America, you are disrespecting America and the American people, whether or not you personally feel offended. Disrespect does not equal offense. It is what it is, and it's fine if you don't agree. I haven't taken offense to one thing he said yet. I just asked that he use common courtesy.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
The old testament says you should kill anyone who is of different belief.
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WizardOfOzposted 13 years ago
Does America respect any other nation?

America says, 'do what I say and if not, you get bombed.'

Respect?
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
If America is a Christian nation; then they were aggressors and have killed 100,000,000. native persons; they may divide the numbers in Catholics and Protestants as they like.The Christianity should at least own it.

If America is an Atheist Skeptic nation; then Atheism should take this responsibility being aggressors' they have killed 100,000,000. persons ; they may divide the numbers in Catholics and Protestants as they like.They should at least own it.
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  psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  America is a nation that allows, accepts and protects all religions and atheist belief systems. As it should.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As long as their customs are not too far from mainstream christianity
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
I have never read anything about constitutional republics/democracies in the Bible.

If I remember correctly, the rulership over the children of Israel was of dictatorship... There was God's law, and that was all... There was no protective legal system...if you came back to God with bad news he may well open a pit in the earth under your feet and swallow you up..

There is direct control via a priesthood elite divining "his will" and the monarchy (which God disapproved of from the very beginning, if I remember correctly...am I wrong here?)

In the new testament there is no concept of earthly governance or legal procedure, or anything of that nature.

Everything that our system, the constitution, the separation of powers, the three branches of government, the legislature, senate, all of it comes from secular human social evolution...

Freedom of religion is certainly not a Christian concept...neither is the freedom of speech/expression....

The tradition of Latins and Greeks is certainly not "God" based...

Neither is a constitution...

Based off the ideas of Jesus...not being focused on earthly things/possessions/power/glories (etc)...seems entirely contrary to the "American Dream" that has been concocted....

I do not see a "christian nation"...rather, I see a country who's population over the rather recent history has been made up of people identifying themselves as "christians."

Our basic principles are founded on the ideas and philosophies of people classified as "pagans"...."idol worshippers"..."heathens".....

I can go on in a much more microscopic way, but I will refrain for now...
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend mikelong
  
  I appreciate your view point about Judaism; it was all dictatorship.
  
  Was Christianity different from Judaism's dictatorship? In what wasy?
  
  Anyone or everyone please
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Diane Insideposted 13 years ago
America started out as a Christian Nation, but somehow along the way While allowing for freedom of religion or lack of religion, someone brought up the words "Politically Correct" Which blew everything out of proportion. It is stupid What is politically correct to one person or group is not politically correct to another. So While we are a christian nation, We are supposed to tolerate all religions. And that should be the end of it.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hogwash.
  
  Sorry, but that's not right.
  Especially we're not supposed to tolerate this new "religion" of blatant immorality being disguised under that label of "political correctness".
  And while we may be supposed to "tolerate" all religions, that was meant to tolerate all God-fearing religions, not to welcome anti-Christian religions with open doors and welcome mats and open arms.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOL
  
  Brenda - you are as a diamond amongst a sea of broken glass. I have started collecting your sayings to compile into a book.
  
  I hope you don't mind?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gee Mark. I'm glad you sometimes focus on the glaring Truth. Can you be trusted to quote in context and give proper footnotes? I highly doubt it; you're totally biased where I'm concerned.
  I have one too, a collection of your nuggets of thought; they're filed in the back of my mind under Rebellion, sub-category Stubborn Mean Atheist, and probably will sit there unless you change your ways.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah well if your definition of "nice" involves behaving the way you do - I am quite happy to be considered mean.
  
  Rebellion? Oh - that is right - you speak for an authority don't you/ You are not telling us what you think - you are telling us what God thinks. It must really bother you that I don't do what god tells you I should do. Oh well.
  
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
It is clear that America has drifted away from its Christian roots. Perhaps in the hearts of older Americans the values of Christianity for America still exist. The reality and the evidence that America has become a country not defined by its religious values is due to the government having taken down all reference to the Ten Commandments from all public buildings. Christian services cannot be performed in public buildings anytime during or after Christmas. Public schools cannot present religious material as it must be nondenominational.

America-A Christian Nation-Now I'm Not Really Sure?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. You mean stopped murdering the indigenous people? Surely that is because you have wiped them all out rather than drifting away from your Christian roots?
  
  And you think it is all because of removing some religious claptrap from government buildings?
  
  Thank goodness your hate mongering has been removed from schools. Does it bother you that you are not allowed to force people to pray any more?
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Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
mikelong, some view liberation from all governmental systems as anarchy. And in many ways it is true. There was never any guise of dictatorship for humans -via the Hebrews- originally. The rules came into play nearly 2000 years after the "woospy" in the 'garden'. It was however designed to be humans keeping humans in check. A personal responsibility idea. Christianity is supposed to be the same idea -heightened 70 to the seventh power times per day (8,235,430,000,000E:12).

So, is America a christian abiding nation? Absolutely NOT. There is more paganism in America than ANYWHERE in the world combined. It is perhaps the epitome -the physical expression- of the term Babylon. Babylon was a city like no other. It was gorgeous, a place everyone wanted to live, visit, be entertained, build business, be educated. Had indoor plumbing, shoppes, street magicians, scholars, whore houses, pagan alters and notably some of the most beautiful gardens, landscapes and feats of engineering at the time. All the while, Babylon was sinking its teeth into every corner of the world at the time. Politically, socially, militarily, religiously it consumed everything...
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strutzasposted 13 years ago
There are many religions now with different beliefs and i think America is a Christian nation.
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Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago
Is this an editorial comment?

Huge Jesus statue explodes, insurance company calls it act of God
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/293506
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
I think back to our early Anglo-American roots, and I think of the money that the colonial and early national government (and local govs) would give to men who came back with native scalps....money.

Bring bloody hair and scalp skin of an "indian" and you get paid...

WWJD?

American roots are found in exploitation of people and resources for personal profit....whether you are William Penn or George Washington.

American roots are found in killing, both outright murder as well as the justified taking of life....

America was founded on trying to construct rigid social controls....for many Anglo American men were running off to live with native peoples....which made many colonial and early national leaders upset...

America was also founded on the wealthy waging wars while sticking the bill to the little guy....how many rebellions against unfair taxation, rents, and other things broke out during our early history?

Christianity? While some people were Christians....the nation itself was founded on very man-physical world oriented things....
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
It was not an attack Brenda. My Great-Grandmother was a genuine Christian woman like you claim to be, and she would indeed have strangled you quietly in a field somewhere so as to avoid awkward questions from the Bishop as to why there was a divorced woman running around preaching.

And you know what? There probably wouldn't even have been any questions asked when the body was found. Real Christians back in those days.

It was not intended as a threat - I was merely telling th truth. She was a hard woman with strong Christian principals and - sorry to say - a divorced woman preacher? Dear me no. Too embarrassing.

I only have one photograph of her - and she makes Queen Victoria look like a big softie. Be assured - you have nothing to fear from my long dead great grandmother. Rest easy.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  I'm not in the least fearful of your grandmother.
  
  But you're saying it would've been okay for your grandmother to MURDER a woman. And that you consider that to be the genuine Christian way of doing things.
  
  Wow. Wonder what she would've done to a thief, Mark? Or a liar? or a homosexual?
  
  You sure have a twisted concept of....almost everything.
  
  No, I'm definitely not the kind of woman your grandmother was, then. I for one do not condone murdering Christians for telling you the Truth, especially just because it "embarrasses" you.
  
  Such nonsense and hatred from you, Mark.
  And I imagine that, once again, it will slip right under the radar of the moderators. Heck, I don't even have the confidence to push the little button again; they totally ignored it last time as far as I could tell.
  And hey it is what it is...
  
  Isn't that so, Mark?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it would have been OK at all Brenda. Wat on earth gave you that idea? That is just how it was back then. Divorced women preachers? Golly gosh no way. Thieves and homosexuals went to prison Brenda.
  
  I think Christian behavior, is now and always has been disgustingly hypocritical and in no way indicative of an all-loving God. I thought I was clear about that.
  
  Both my maternal grandparents - after years of service to the Church - converted to Catholicism when the CoE started accepting women priests.
  
  But - I suspect this entire conversation has gone right over your head.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing went over my head, unless it's the confusion you have from the teachings of people you were raised by or around....
  I see now that you have no idea what a Christian even is.
  For you, it's apparently a religious ritualistic Old-Testament-strict concept where there is no liberty nor free will, only strict adherence to the rules of the "Church" (and your definiton of "the Church" is very cloudy).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - you took it as an attack for a start and clearly have no clue what I said to you. You are a Christian - right? Sorry you did not understand, and I am not sure it would be worth trying to explain.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your words were very clear, Mark! My grandmother would have felt the same way, and like you, I did not condone her feelings. Today's christians do not act as bad because they cannot do so anymore, not because they don't want to!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No no, let's not keep making this about me. Let's get to the bottom of this. So...are you saying your grandmother was a hypocrite, that in her religious zeal she was intolerant and judgemental not of herself, but of others, to the point, even, of hatred and murderous thoughts?
  
  Or are you saying perhaps that that's just how YOU perceived her to be?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - a good Christian woman - the same as you are.
  
  Great grandmother. Divorced woman preacher? Dear me no - an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. She knew what God wanted.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, I'm not your grandmother, and I don't hold hatred and murderous thoughts like that.
  And the Catholic Church isn't, in my opinion and according to the Bible's teachings, the authority for behavior rule. Because it puts the judgment into the hands of Priests who choose their own rules at their own whim, and puts their followers under their thumbs, not under God's.
  
  The Bible does say that we are ALL worthy of death, and that is in the eyes of God UNTIL we acknowledge His Love for us and accept His sacrifice (His pure Sacrifice is Jesus Christ).
  
  In the Old Testament, God wielded His power and authority in very strict terms, ritualistic terms, even "biased" terms, if you will. Yet He is God! And He had every right to do so! He set in motion a Plan for His people (at that time, His chosen people were the Israelites). And He didn't falter from that Plan. What some people don't see is that His Plan also contained Salvation offered for everyone else as well as for the Jews.
  
  And I'll pause there for now, since you hate to hear me "preaching", and it's useless anyway for the most part.
  Suffice it to say that SINCE Jesus came and died for everyone, the things we do that are worthy of death, are now not judged on the scales of physical death versus physical life, but are judged on the scale of spiritual death versus Spiritual Life.
  It doesn't mean we can condone wrongdoings at all. It just means we no longer have to endure the eternal punishment for sin if we choose to Love Him, because Jesus took all those upon Himself.
  
  But
  to dismiss the "Old" laws of right and wrong is to promote total lawlessness, both in our American society (since this thread is about American society) and to promote Lawlessness in God's eyes too.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Excuses for your behavior will not work Brenda. My great grandmother would have considered your condition to be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord and dealt with you accordingly.
  
  I am glad to hear that you now accept and encourage the muslims and homosexuals and left wingers, and will not speak against them any more. This is a step forwards I think? Well done.
  
  My Great grandmother would have despised you even further for this weak anti-Christian behavior though.
  
  She was a hard woman and knew what the Lord wanted.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice try, Mark.
  
  Did I leave out repentance?
  Sorry about that.
  
  Nobody gets forgiveness unless they repent to the Lord, and I will note that repentance means turning from one's wicked ways.
  It sure as shootin' doesn't mean condoning homosexuality in America's laws, nor abortion, nor theft, nor any sin.
  
  And like I've told you before, if you think the laws in America or anywhere else are too lenient on divorce and re-marriage, go petition to have the laws set "right" in your view. I have a pen ready to sign anytime you want to hold bad bad people like me responsible for my former sins. (Just don't forget that your stance will be hugely hypocritical if you don't hold your fellow homosexual advocates and your fellow athiests responsible too. ) That would cause such a stir! They might, God forbid, even compare you to that strict God that you so despise.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Please do not shoot the messenger Brenda. As you know - I do not condone any of this nonsense. I am just telling you how it is. I do not despise something that does not exist - so - please stop bearing false witness against me. Thank you.
  
  No doubt my great grand mother would have despised atheists and homosexuals equally as much as divorced women. Perhaps not as much as a divorced women preachers - but - she would not have had to worry about them. There were prisons for homosexuals and atheists.
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Jeff Berndtposted 13 years ago
The United States is not, and never has been, a "Christian Nation." It is, and always has been, a secular nation with a Christian majority. There's a difference, and the difference is an important one.
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CYBERSUPEposted 13 years ago
Great work Mark and Randy and I totaly agree. I have a Copper United States Penny ( one cent piece) in my hand and it says "in God we Trust" does't that say it all.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Money is the most important thing to you?
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paulthomas500posted 13 years ago
what paar wants obviously is to pick a fight - n the funny part that he happens to be using really gentle words to do it - the way of a typical jehadi..
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
And I will say that you might consider just who/what is so "strict" or "biased" or "intolerant" or "hypocritical" in the liberal section of society (and perhaps in your own personality).
I was suspended for a week from the forums because you or someone took offense at MY tongue-in-cheek sarcasm after YOU harrassed me in a previous thread and then I posted a thread where we COULD discuss these very issues we've been discussing right here. Wonder what it was?----was it the extra "s" in your last name? Was your "tolerant" heart so offended that you got me banned? Or was it some other atheist? or just the intolerance of the moderators? Or were you indeed banned as well for your "sarcasm" of telling me your grandmother would kill me?--a "tongue-in-cheek" so you say anyway comment that was much more personally-offensive than what I posted. Because you seem to understand little or nothing about forgiveness, neither man's forgiveness nor God's. You weren't suspended as far as the records indicate. I didn't see you held to any responsibility at all. Again, there illustrates that your calls for "tolerance" are one-sided. I will submit to the "intolerance" of the Christian way any ol' day before I'll give up my Godly commission at the whim of liberal rules.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your godly commission? That is the way my great grandmother felt. As I understand it. She would not have tolerated a divorced woman preacher in 100 years.
  
  She knew what god wanted. She was chosen to speak and act on His behalf and would have dealt with you appropriately.
  
  Sorry you find God's Word offensive.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry you had such a confusing upbringing.
  
  And even sorrier that you refuse to take personal responsibility for any of your actions.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh - I take responsibility for all my actions. I speak for me.
  
  Do you speak for god?
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
And yes America is a Christian nation.
If Mr. Obama wants to reign over a Muslim nation or a Godless nation, let him go take charge of one of those and leave mine alone. And let his followers follow him there.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh? Where in the Constitution does it say that the US is a Christian nation? Where, in fact, is Christ, Christianity, of God even mentioned?
  
  Go look, and find where it's written.
  
  We'll wait.
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getitriteposted 13 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_tKXDrFLhQ
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, the quotes were interesting but invalidated; but hey those bobble-heads were entertaining.
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TMMasonposted 13 years ago
America has always been a Christian country. And God willing will always be a Christian country.

Our Founding Fathers were devout men of faith and this is reflected in thier writings. Regardless of the left's ever vigilent fight to revise historical fact. We are a christian nation, founded on the morals and teachings of the Judao Christian religion.

And to Paas, as regards Islam, Muslims and friendship with any non-muslims.

The qu'ran says in regards to befriending people of other religions and non-believers, the following. And niether you, Paas, nor any other muslim, or leant leftist apologists, can change the words and commands of your allah.

I love lettin Islam speak for itself...

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80)... "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Qur'an (3:28)... "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that "believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."

Qur'an (3:118)... "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." This verse not only warns Muslims not to take non-Muslims as friends, but it establishes the deep-seated paranoia that the rest of the world is out to get them.

Qur'an (9:23)... "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" Even family members are not to be taken as friends if they do not accept Islam. (This is the mildest interpretation of this verse from the 9th Sura, which also advocates "slaying the unbeliever wherever ye find them").

Qur'an (53:29)... "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world."

Qur'an (3:85)... "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

I mean?... How many times does allah babba have to repeat it...

Qur'an (3:10)... "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire." Those who do not believe in Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell (also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).

Qur'an (7:44)... The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers" Muslims in heaven will amuse themselves by looking down on non-Muslims in Hell and mocking them while they are being tortured (see 22:19-22.

Qur'an (1:5-7)... "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray" This is a prayer that Muslims are supposed to repeat each day. "Those who earn Thine anger" specifically refers to Jews and "those who go astray" refers to Christians (see Bukhari (12:749)).

How about from that other authoritative text of Islam...

The Hadith.

Muslim (1:417)... Taken to mean that one's own relatives should not be taken as friends if they are not Muslim.

Abu Dawud (41:4815)... "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend."

Abu Dawud (41:4832)... The Messenger of Allah [said] "Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious."

Bukhari (59:572)... "O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you."

Ishaq 262... "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"

Ishaq 252... The story of a young man who converts to Islam after hearing Muhammad. He then tells his own father that he can no longer have anything to do with him because, "I have become a Muslim and follow the religion of Muhammad." (To maintain a relationship with his son, the father "converts" as well). This is an important passage because it establishes that the principle of shunning is based merely on the status of non-Muslims as unbelievers, not on their relations toward Muslims. In this case, the father desperately loved his son and meant him no harm.

Many Muslims interpret this to mean that they should not even act friendly toward nonbelievers. But there is even a modern-day fatwa on this issue that warns Muslims against taking unbelievers as, "sincere friends" and permits infidels to be dealt with... "in a kind manner in the hope that they might become Muslim."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc … 5.qmt.html

So for you, paas, to sit here and disiminnate the lies about Islam and it's friendship to all the world, is BS, it is just beyond deception and trickery, it is pure propaganda.

And of course one doesn't even have to use any of these verses of the Qu'ran to prove the point at issue here anyway.

All you have to do is understand that through the act of Abrogation, "Naskh", all concilliatory verses towards the, "people of the book" and the un-believers, are nullified, "obliterated", by verses 109, and 105, as they were the last recitations of Mohhammud and supercede all previous verses.

Now that... is the straight of it, paas.

Your welcome.
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Good stuff Tom.

And Jeff B., the Constitution is signed under the statement "..in the year of our Lord 1787".
And besides that, it wouldn't specifically even have to state anything directly about God, since it was common sense and common knowledge to revere the God of the Bible anyway.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations! You found the one and only mention of god in the US Constitution, the date stamp, which is written in the style of the period.
  
  No other mention of God, Christ, or Christianity exists in our Constitution, which seems to be an unforgivable omission, if the founders meant to create a Christian nation.
  
  There seem to be two possibilities.
  
  One, the founders meant to create a Christian nation but, whoops, they plumb forgot to mention it in the Constitution (except in the date stamp).
  
  Or two, the founders meant to create an officially secular nation, and deliberately made sure that neither God nor Christ would be either acknowledged or mentioned in the Constitution, and religion only mentioned in the provision that no religious test shall ever be required to hold office, and Congress will not establish a church of the USA.
  
  Add in the fact that all the God rah-rah that the religious right like to point to when they claim that the US was founded as a Christian nation on Christian principals didn't get put there until the 1860s, in the case of In God We Trust on the coins, and the 1950s in the case of In God We Trust on paper money, Under God in the Pledge (which, by the way, was written by a minister and made no mention of God in its first three versions), and it becomes pretty clear that the founders were not trying to create a Christian nation.
  
  That there is a Christian majority in the US is undeniable, but the USA is officially a secular republic, where the power of government is derived from the people, not from any other worldly--or otherworldly--source.
  
  "And besides that, it wouldn't specifically even have to state anything directly about God, since it was common sense and common knowledge to revere the God of the Bible anyway."
  So you're a loose constructionist, then, believing that even if it's not mentioned in the Constitution, the government can go ahead and do it?
  I want to clarify that point, because it has implications.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They did not mention the specifics, so as not to infer, this was "only" a nation for Christians.
  
  It also states where the Rights of men come from... our creator.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "It [the Constitution] also states where the Rights of men come from... our creator."
  
  No! No it doesn't! Please, for God's sake, go and read the Constitution before you try to convince people that you understand it.
  Here's a link to the text of the US Constitution.
  http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte … cript.html
  
  You're quoting the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The difference is pretty big, and pretty important.
  
  I mean, it's like if someone were to quote St. Thomas Aquinas and claim to be quoting the Bible.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying that all you can see is what written in the Constitution? Because the Constitution isn't as I see it the greatest document ever written-The King James Bible Is!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Are you saying that all you can see is what written in the Constitution?"
  No, I'm saying you keep saying stuff is in the Constitution when it's not, and it's making you look silly.
  
  "the Constitution isn't as I see it the greatest document ever written-The King James Bible Is!"
  Hey, that's cool. I think the Bible is pretty awesome, too. But you might want to try reading one or two other books as well.
  
  The King James Bible isn't what established the US government, nor the source from which the government derives its authority.
  
  The US Constitution established our secular republic, which derives its authority from the people.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yup, sorry, my bad... lost my thoughts for a moment.
  
  I tend to combine the two when speaking of them. Doesn't mean I don't understand the constitution, though.
  
  So... lets not get all proud of yourself and dismissive of everyone else.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is one other possibility Jeff.
  And that is this--
  
  Belief in God (Christianity) is not a "religion" as many would t ry to define it.
  
  It is simply belief in the God the Creator, God the Savior.
  
  Several religions get lumped erroneously into the label of "Christian". Just as that erroneous concept has been used to confuse people about the idea of "separation of church and state".
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jeff Berndt in the comments you made "never has been, a "Christian Nation. It is, and always has been, a secular" tells me we are not seeing this country from the same point of view.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

The above written in America's Constitution and sent during that time. In America that weren't a bunch of Hindus, Buddhists but primarily Christian so it would be safe to assume that is the one the message is targeting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta … dependence

the preamble to the Constitution of Kentucky, which states, "We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy, and invoking the continuance of these blessings, do ordain and establish this Constitution." the national motto, "In God we trust </wiki/In_God_we_trust>"
an excerpt from President Lincoln's "Reply to Loyal Colored People of Baltimore upon Presentation of a Bible," which reads, "The Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." The Mayflower Compact , in which the colony's founders invoke "the name of God" and explain that their journey was taken, among other reasons, "for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith </wiki/Faith_in_Christianity
the fact that they had to remove the Ten Commandments from public building would be an indication that society embraced Christianity.

America has for some time now celebrated Christmas-contrary to popular belief is not designed for shopping! Now before they remove it the money we carry around with us has for some years, says "In God we trust-not Mohammed but in God."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  '"never has been, a "Christian Nation. It is, and always has been, a secular" tells me we are not seeing this country from the same point of view."'
  
  No, I reckon not. I am seeing it from the point of view of the actual text of the Constitution, which is the document that establishes the United States as a nation, and upon which our laws are based. The only mention of Christ is in the date stamp. There is no other mention of Christ, or God, anywhere in the document. There is no mention of any biblical basis, or divine authority, or Christian faith anywhere in the document. It's not there. And by all accounts, the founders were all Christians of one stripe or another. You'd think that they would have remembered to acknowledge their most cherished beliefs when establishing the basis for the government of the new republic, wouldn't you?
  
  Either they made a colossal blunder, or they deliberately chose to create a secular government.
  
  "The above written in America's Constitution and sent during that time."
  Nope, you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which is not the document on which our laws are based.
  
  "In America that weren't a bunch of Hindus, Buddhists but primarily Christian" I do not dispute that the majority of Americans were, and are, Christians. But that doesn't (or shouldn't) give Christians privileged status, or justify the marginalization or disparagement of minority faiths.
  
  "the preamble to the Constitution of Kentucky...an excerpt from President Lincoln's "Reply to Loyal Colored People of Baltimore upon Presentation of a Bible,"...The Mayflower Compact "
  Sure, sure, but again, none of those things are the US Constitution; none of those things are what the United States's laws are based on.
  
  'the national motto, "In God we trust"' Which didn't appear on US coins until 1864 (nearly a hundred years after Independence was declared), didn't appear on US paper money until 1955, and wasn't made our national motto until 1956.
  This comes from the U.S. Mint
  The founders didn't put "in God We Trust" on our money. The original national mottoes that the actual founders actually approved when they were going about the business of founding the country are E Pluribus Unum, Novus Ordo Seclorum, and Annuit Coeptis. They were changed to "In God We Trust" by people who wanted to make the US into a Christian nation instead of a nation with a Christian majority.
  
  "the fact that they had to remove the Ten Commandments from public building would be an indication that society embraced Christianity."
  No, the (actual) fact that the ten commandments weren't originally there, and when they got put there, there was a huge controversy, resulting in their removal, would be an indication that the US has no official state religion.
  
  "America has for some time now celebrated Christmas-contrary to popular belief is not designed for shopping!" And no non-Christian ever celebrates Christmas or exchanges gifts? Look, I don't dispute that the majority of Americans are Christian. That's an indisputable fact. What I take issue with is the false assertion that the US is and always has been a "Christian Nation," especially when that assertion is 'supported' with false history, or the out-of-context use of documents irrelevant to the discussion.
  
  As an aside, I find it amusing when people who mix up the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution set themselves up as legal or historical authorities. It's similarly amusing when people who purport to value truth (or Truth) use falsehoods (either deliberately or through ignorance) to support their arguments.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It seems amazinjg to me that in the fact of truth we reject what we see. The courts all across America were use to The Bible before anyone could testified-That's The King James Bible. Presidents sworn into off used placed their hands on the bible to be sworn into office. All one has to do is open their eyes and they can easily see that America Use To Be A Christian Country. One can deny it all they won't but it doesn't change the truth.
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  sabrebIadeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know right?
  I always wondered why they even played at that "Separation of church and state" thing.
  
  As far as I could tell, it wasn't very separated.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is no "seperation of church and state" in the constitution.
  
  It is a reference made in a letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, nothing more.
  
  The left through judicail activism has created something that doesn't exist, like a right to abortion in the constitution. It just isn't there... but the right to "Life" is.
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  sabrebIadeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, like in 1797 in The Treaty of Tripoli when they said " the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was done in an attempt to appease the hostile Islamists. What the leant leftists refer to today as Diplomacy.
  
  Read here...
  
  The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion. GEORGE WASHINGTON
  
  The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli is the source of Washington's supposed statement. Is this statement accurate? Did this prominent Founder truly repudiate religion?
  
  An answer will be found by an examination of its source. That treaty, one of several with Tripoli, was negotiated during the "Barbary Powers Conflict," which began shortly after the Revolutionary War and continued through the Presidencies of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison. The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States). In 1801, Tripoli even declared war against the United States, thus constituting America's first official war as an established independent nation.
  
  Throughout this long conflict, the four Barbary Powers regularly attacked undefended American merchant ships. Not only were their cargoes easy prey but the Barbary Powers were also capturing and enslaving "Christian" seamen in retaliation for what had been done to them by the "Christians" of previous centuries (e.g., the Crusades and Ferdinand and Isabella's expulsion of Muslims from Granada ). In an attempt to secure a release of captured seamen and a guarantee of unmolested shipping in the Mediterranean, President Washington dispatched envoys to negotiate treaties with the Barbary nations. (Concurrently, he encouraged the construction of American naval warships to defend the shipping and confront the Barbary "pirates" – a plan not seriously pursued until President John Adams created a separate Department of the Navy in 1798.)
  
  The American envoys negotiated numerous treaties of "Peace and Amity" with the Muslim Barbary nations to ensure "protection" of American commercial ships sailing in the Mediterranean. However, the terms of the treaty frequently were unfavorable to America, either requiring her to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars of "tribute" (i.e., official extortion) to each country to receive a "guarantee" of safety or to offer other "considerations" (e.g., providing a warship as a "gift" to Tripoli, a "gift" frigate to Algiers, paying $525,000 to ransom captured American seamen from Algiers, etc.).
  
  The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was one of the many treaties in which each country officially recognized the religion of the other in an attempt to prevent further escalation of a "Holy War" between Christians and Muslims. Consequently, Article XI of that treaty stated:
  
  As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
  This article may be read in two manners. It may, as its critics do, be concluded after the clause "Christian religion"; or it may be read in its entirety and concluded when the punctuation so indicates. But even if shortened and cut abruptly ("the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"), this is not an untrue statement since it is referring to the federal government.
  
  Recall that while the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation (demonstrated in chapter 2 of Original Intent), they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal establishment; religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation.
  
  Reading the clause of the treaty in its entirety also fails to weaken this fact. Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.
  
  This latter reading is, in fact, supported by the attitude prevalent among numerous American leaders. The Christianity practiced in America was described by John Jay as "wise and virtuous," by John Quincy Adams as "civilized," and by John Adams as "rational." A clear distinction was drawn between American Christianity and that of Europe in earlier centuries. As Noah Webster explained:
  
  The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it.
  
  Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:
  Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron] are unknown – general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land!
  
  Those who attribute the Treaty of Tripoli quote to George Washington make two mistakes. The first is that no statement in it can be attributed to Washington (the treaty did not arrive in America until months after he left office); Washington never saw the treaty; it was not his work; no statement in it can be ascribed to him. The second mistake is to divorce a single clause of the treaty from the remainder which provides its context. It would also be absurd to suggest that President Adams (under whom the treaty was ratified in 1797) would have endorsed or assented to any provision which repudiated Christianity. In fact, while discussing the Barbary conflict with Jefferson, Adams declared: The policy of Christendom has made cowards of all their sailors before the standard of Mahomet. It would be heroical and glorious in us to restore courage to ours.
  
  Furthermore, it was Adams who declared:
  The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.
  
  Adams' own words confirm that he rejected any notion that America was less than a Christian nation.
  
  Additionally, the writings of General William Eaton, a major figure in the Barbary Powers conflict, provide even more irrefutable testimony of how the conflict was viewed at that time. Eaton was first appointed by President John Adams as "Consul to Tunis," and President Thomas Jefferson later advanced him to the position of "U. S. Naval Agent to the Barbary States," authorizing him to lead a military expedition against Tripoli. Eaton's official correspondence during his service confirms that the conflict was a Muslim war against a Christian America.
  
  For example, when writing to Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, Eaton apprised him of why the Muslims would be such dedicated foes:
  
  Taught by revelation that war with the Christians will guarantee the salvation of their souls, and finding so great secular advantages in the observance of this religious duty [the secular advantage of keeping captured cargoes], their [the Muslims'] inducements to desperate fighting are very powerful.
  
  Eaton later complained that after Jefferson had approved his plan for military action, he sent him the obsolete warship "Hero." Eaton reported the impression of America made upon the Tunis Muslims when they saw the old warship and its few cannons: [T]he weak, the crazy situation of the vessel and equipage [armaments] tended to confirm an opinion long since conceived and never fairly controverted among the Tunisians, that the Americans are a feeble sect of Christians.
  
  In a later letter to Pickering, Eaton reported how pleased one Barbary ruler had been when he received the extortion compensations from America which had been promised him in one of the treaties:
  He said, "To speak truly and candidly . . . . we must acknowledge to you that we have never received articles of the kind of so excellent a quality from any Christian nation."
  
  When John Marshall became the new Secretary of State, Eaton informed him: It is a maxim of the Barbary States, that "The Christians who would be on good terms with them must fight well or pay well."
  
  And when General Eaton finally commenced his military action against Tripoli, his personal journal noted: April 8th. We find it almost impossible to inspire these wild bigots with confidence in us or to persuade them that, being Christians, we can be otherwise than enemies to Musselmen. We have a difficult undertaking!
  
  May 23rd. Hassien Bey, the commander in chief of the enemy's forces, has offered by private insinuation for my head six thousand dollars and double the sum for me a prisoner; and $30 per head for Christians. Why don't he come and take it? 32
  
  Shortly after the military excursion against Tripoli was successfully terminated, its account was written and published. Even the title of the book bears witness to the nature of the conflict:
  
  The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton . . . commander of the Christian and Other Forces . . . which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli
  
  The numerous documents surrounding the Barbary Powers Conflict confirm that historically it was always viewed as a conflict between Christian America and Muslim nations. Those documents completely disprove the notion that any founding President, especially Washington, ever declared that America was not a Christian nation or people. (Chapter 16 of Original Intent will provide numerous additional current examples of historical revisionism.)
  
  http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesar … asp?id=125
  
  I would rather they had crushed them... but.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "The left through judicail activism has created something that doesn't exist, like a right to abortion in the constitution. It just isn't there... but the right to "Life" is."
  
  No, silly, you're confounding the text to the D of I with that of the Constitution. Who's trying to create something that doesn't exist?
  
  And the extensive article pasted in by TMMason totally supports that the US was at the time (and it still remains) a nation with a Christian majority. That's not the same thing as a Christian nation, however. There's a difference.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "The courts all across America were use to The Bible before anyone could testified-That's The King James Bible."
  Again, you're wrong. It's true that most people swear on the Bible, but nobody is required to do so. Quakers, for example, don't even swear, they affirm. Atheists typically hold a book of law when swearing in as a witness in court. The phrase "so help me God" is not required, it it merely traditional Nor does it appear as part of the presidential oath (or affirmation) of office, which is established in the (Godless) Constitution. The President is not required to hold a Bible when being sworn (or affirmed) in, and in fact Teddy Roosevelt didn't use a Bible. Neither did John Quincy Adams, who used a book of US law, nor did Lyndon Johnson, who swore in on a Catholic Missal (not the King James Bible). Franklin Pierce didn't even swear the oath of office. He affirmed the affirmation of office. There's a difference, and it's a big one.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Look Don't tell me I'm wrong about swearing on the bible I've been to court and I followed that proceedure, stop thinking you know what goes on in other people's lives When You Don't.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, you've been to court, and you've sworn on the Bible. I believe you.
  
  What you're wrong about is this: you seem to think that you're required to swear on the Bible in court, but you're not.
  
  Let me try again, with smaller words.
  
  Most people swear on the Bible in court. But they don't have to if they don't want to. It's okay to use a Koran, or a Talmud, or even a phone book if you want.
  
  Is that clear enough for you?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They sure wouldn't be perceived as a very credible witness if they swore-in on a phone book, or actually anything BUT the Bible.
  Really.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, are you sure you want to say that anyone who won't swear on a Bible is dishonest? That there are no honest Hindus, Muslims, or Jews? Or Quakers? Or Jehovah's Witnesses? 'Cos that's basically what you just said.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm saying the Bible has always been THE standard by which integrity in a courtroom in America has been measured.
  
  I suppose you'd feel secure about it if people brought their little black books to swear in on. Or hey----how about a Satanic book? Yeah buddy, that would show a whole lotta tolerance and diversity, just what America needs fer shure.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I'm saying the Bible has always been THE standard by which integrity in a courtroom in America has been measured."
  
  Okay, that statement is pretty syntactically confusing, but I get what you mean: "If you don't swear on a Bible, most people will think you're less credible as a witness."
  
  You're probably correct in that.
  
  But that doesn't make the muslim guy who swears on a Koran a dishonest man. It just means that most people are prejudiced against the muslim guy for swearing on the Koran.
  
  Or, to put it another way, just because I don't believe you doesn't make you a liar.
  
  "I suppose you'd feel secure about it if people brought their little black books to swear in on. Or hey----how about a Satanic book?"
  What makes me feel comfortable isn't the issue. The issue is the law, and the law does not require witnesses to swear on the Bible. Most witnesses do swear on the Bible, since most Americans are Christians of one stripe or another. But, and this right here is the important part: witnesses are not required to swear on a Bible.
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ediggityposted 13 years ago
The best part of a story, the ending:

"the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not for the Native Americans who were murdered by the "Christian" founders, nor the slaves who were bought, sold, and toiled for them either.
  
  The "year of our lord" was commonly used instead of the medieval Latin term Anno Domini or the abbreviated A.D. meaning "in the year of our Lord." This was based on both the Julian and Gregorian calendars.
  
  This was the standard way of denoting the correct year even by those not of the Christian faith. This particular designation has been widely used since 800 AD. It in no way indicative of the religious faith of the particular scribe or scribes.
  
  But many will merely assume what they wish it to be as usual!
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, you really cleared things up. Now people might not confuse the word Lord with the Christian faith. There's no way that the word Lord could have had anything to do with religion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Understood like a true christian! LOL!
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You know if you were to take a lil studious exploration through the court records of the colonies in the days of the founders. You would see that there was alot more fairness involved in settling issues between the indians and colonialists, then is taught.
  
  And Slavery was a world wide practice... up untill America and England outlawed it. Now it is practiced almost exclusively in Islamic Nations and Africa.
  
  Imagine that... who are the racists and opressors now.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "And Slavery was a world wide practice... up untill America and England outlawed it."
  Actually, many other countries outlawed slavery before the US did. Russia apparently abolished it in 1723 (though the Russian slaves actually became serfs, which isn't much different). The Holy Roman Empire abolished slavery in 1783. Jacobin France outlawed slavery in 1794. England followed suit in 1807.
  
  The good ol' US of A didn't get around to it until 1865 (the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 was not legally binding).
  
  Wrong again, but that's hardly surprising.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes I am sure the whole world outlawed it first.
  
  lol yup...
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, that's not what I said. I said the US wasn't the first to outlaw slavery, not by a long shot.
  
  Your jingoism is showing.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, just in case:
  
  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/jingoism
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So this excuses it? Because everyone else did it? What about the christian values so touted on these forums? Yes, American christians murdered indians, placed diseased blankets among the trade goods, exterminated the bison to starve them out, took their land, imported slaves from Africa to do their work for them so they could go to church on Sunday and show everyone how pious they were.
  
  And from this, these pathetic, superstitious, self righteous, judgmental individuals have the nerve to say this country was founded on Christianity. Well, just look at the way those christian people ran things. And the sad part is they would justify doing even worse things today. If there was a god he would have thrown up on those "christian" founders! And righteously so!
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never said it excused anything... can you leftists read what someone says and stick to it. Stop adding things to what I say... I said "it was a world wide practice"....
  
  My point for those unable to grasp it was... "Stop acting as if America is the cause and creation of all the slavery and ill in the world".
  
  Pretty simple.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one said America was the cause of all the slavery in the world! But as a nation founded on christianity ( a fallacy of course) they kept it much longer than others. One would think that a country of christians would have been embarrassed to do so! Why was this? No christians owned slaves in America?
  
  Oh yeah, these were not real christians, right? LOL!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'My point for those unable to grasp it was... "Stop acting as if America is the cause and creation of all the slavery and ill in the world".'
  
  And mine is, "Don't pretend that the US led the world in ending slavery. It didn't. Many other countries abolished slavery before the US finally got around to it."
  
  Stop making up jingoistic history to suit your nationalistic pride.
  
  It's better to be a patriot than to be a nationalist. But, to make that distinction, you'd need to understand the difference.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's just like the poor people always pick on the rich kids and the unpopular ones blame the cheerleaders for their social difficulties.
  
  america has so many things going for it that the rest just can't stand it. They demand so much from the american government that they can't even begin to muster on their own.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
I wonder if the innocent people murdered by the christian judges after the Salem Witch Trials were sworn in on a bible. What irony this would be. But I suppose those ignorant, superstitious, christian judges still made it to heaven because they thought they were doing god's work.

Nothing has changed much, especially the christian mindset.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
No free nation forces one to provide proof they believe in a sky fairy before telling the truth fortunately!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And the US doesn't. At least, not officially. But as Brenda points out, most Americans won't believe you (or will be less likely to believe you) unless you at least pretend to believe in God when you take the witness stand. (Never mind whether you actually believe in God or not, and never mind that an Atheist can swear to tell the truth all the while believing that nothing bad will happen to him if he breaks his oath--if he puts his hand on that Book, everything he says will be accepted as true. Seems pretty stupid to me, and I believe in God.
  
  Really, the fact that a witness who won't swear on the Bible will be less credible says more about the people who don't believe him than about the witness himself.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The christians want to make everyone have to swear on a bible, Earnest! Because christians don't lie! Or cheat, steal, commit adultery, or break any of the other Ten Commandments. Ever been with a preacher's daughter? HaHa!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know a few who have told some whoppers here!
  
  One of the hottest dates I ever had was a Catholic priests daughter! She got out her bedroom window at night to meet bad boys like me!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wait...what?
  
  Earn, that story is funny, but smells fishy. Catholic priests aren't meant to be having children, and if one did father a kid, he's not going to be raising the kid and still being a priest. He'd be defrocked.
  
  Are you sure the girl's dad wasn't a pastor for some Protestant denomination?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, it was about a hundred years ago! You are right of course. He was a priest though!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  C of E maybe? Episcopalian/Anglican to us USAians?
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  alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Many instances of Catholic priests with children. And the preachers daughters - they rock for young up-and-coming studs !
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I feel sure it would have been Anglican on reflection, and we do have a very sus Anglican Bishop or two here as well! I have known a Baptist priest who shot through like a Bondi tram after $500,000 went missing from a retirement home fund! He got a bond.
  I have good experiences too! My anarchist Chinese/Australian son was a chorister for the Anglican church for 5 years! When he left the choir leader gave him a book written by a well known anarchist! Not all bad eh?
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  my grandfather is a catholic priest. there are catholic sects that allow legitimate marraiges.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I had no idea; I stand corrected.
  
  Are they officially part of the main Church?
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They are catholic but not under the authority of the Pope in the Vatican. I do think though that they are aligned to Orthodox.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My experience with the children of pastors was they were very much burnt out on their dad's religion, for the most part. Of course they saw how men of god really acted away from the congregation on Sunday.
  
  When I was a teenager I met these three girls whose grandfather preached at a very well attended Holiness Baptist church. He would preach and talk in tongues, berate the sinners who dared to not attend the church, and then molest his granddaughters during the week.
  
  At a wedding rehearsal dinner the son of a very well known pastor was asked to say grace before the meal. He stood up and closed his eyes and began to speak.
  
  God is great!
  God is good!
  Yay God!
  
  I kid you not!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All girl catholic schools have a lot of teen pregnancies. true. Precisely because condom is forbidden.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
My wife once worked as a fraud prevention investigator for the state government. One of the first things she learned in her training was if a suspect pulled out a bible and offered to swear on it they were usually lying. I found out for myself this was true in several situations.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, that's interesting factoid!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and no myth involved!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
People swear on the Bible because God is the only righteous entity whose moral values cannot be questioned. If A person who is educated doesn't mean they are moral and righteous, whether believer, nonbeliever or sinner one cannot stand righteous and just before God as one being incapable of lying. Swearing on the Bible is our promise to God, not to man that we will tell the truth. Being human of course we know there are people who will not tell the truth because mankind has a sin nature we need only look around to prove that fact. Being as how we are sinful people we cannot stand alone in righteous indignation as being purveyors of the truth and that would be a lie.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is! Unfortunately for you, there is absolutely no proof of anything you stated in this post.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well it has nothing to do with the bible. A person who needs to externally demonstrate his honesty really is suspect.
  
  Like you know, if somebody says "I'm very happy with my life" and its not even in the ballpark of the conversation is lying about it.
  
  "I'm very pretty"
  "I am the authority on such and such"
  "You have to listen to me because I'm your boss"
  
  these things that should already be obvious does not need to be stated unless the person saying it doubts it himself/herself.
  
  you know when a boss has lost his influence if he starts saying "I'm the chairman of this outfit" He has lost his leadership and he knows it.
  
  In the same way a man who lies and brings out the bible need to convince that he is not lying because he secretly does not believe even himself.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, you actually agree with me on something, CB! I think that catfight did you some good! LOL!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We have agreed on things a couple of times, you just like to forget!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I like to remember!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think it was not in the religion forum but in the science ones.
  
  I don't quite remember which one. I even remember arguing on your side.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know, CB! No one agrees on everything! Peace!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It would be totally insane to disagree on personality alone, don't you think?
  
  If you agree, you agree.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure if insanity is ever total! Is it? LOL!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I also think if you're insane, you're insane. But I agree with insane sometimes.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My uncle was murdered and his assassin was found not guilty because he was judged temporarily insane at the time of the crime.
  
  They even gave the 30-30 rifle back to the guy after he was
  released.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is awful.
  
  Only in America...
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That doesn't feel right...I think if someone has had a history of shooting people insane or not, they shouldn't be allowed to use firearms.
  
  What they hoi!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "People swear on the Bible because God is the only righteous entity whose moral values cannot be questioned."
  
  Some people believe that. Other people don't. Most Americans swear on the Bible because that's the custom of the majority. Besides, holding a bible and promising to tell the truth does not magically bind a person's tongue. It only works if the person in question believes that God will judge him for lying.
  
  So really, it's pretty stupid to assume someone is telling the truth just because he swears on the Bible, since a non-believer has no reason not to lie like a cheap rug.
  
  "Swearing on the Bible is our promise to God, not to man that we will tell the truth."
  Sure, that's sound theology. But we don't have to get God to believe us in the courtroom. We have to get the jury to believe us. The jury are not God. Besides, as I mentioned above, that ritual only carries weight if the person swearing the oath believes it does.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not so.
  The idea of swearing on the Bible is also used as a standard for perjury prosecution, or at the very least it's been a basic part of the oath that a person takes when they step into the witness stand.
  It's a bit comparable to miranda rights in its standard. It indicates proper procedure that should be followed.
  That standard was set long ago. The fact that we're even debating this topic is more evidence of the audacity of the liberal agenda that tries to remove all dependence on the Creator and the Bible as America's standard basis for morality by trying to validate the unconscienable.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "The fact that we're even debating this topic is more evidence of the audacity of the liberal agenda that tries to remove all dependence on the Creator and the Bible as America's standard basis for morality by trying to validate the unconscienable."
  No, the fact that we're even debating this topic is more evidence of the adamant wall of willful ignorance on the part of the religious right, who try to insist that there's some law requiring witnesses to swear on a Bible in a US court of law, when there isn't.
  
  Check this out, for an overview of what is actually required of courtroom witnesses by our officially secular government:
  http://www.slate.com/id/2099763
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually swearing on a bible is not scriptural, swearing any oath is not scriptural:
  
  Matthew 5:33-34 (King James Version)
  
  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
  
  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne.
  
  But certainly if you swear before Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God will hold you accountable, whether you believe in Him or not, if you lie with deliberation:
  
  Revelation 21:8 (Amplified Bible)
  
  But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.
  
  Anyhow, one can promise to tell the truth with any book you want to, but lying still gets you in trouble with God, no matter what you believe or don't believe, and that's the reason for the swearing on the bible, to make MOST folk aware that even if the jury believes the lie, God knows the truth.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Actually swearing on a bible is not scriptural, swearing any oath is not scriptural:"
  That's the argument the Quakers make against swearing (on anything) and one of the reasons we have the option to affirm, rather than swear, to tell the truth in court.
  
  "Anyhow, one can promise to tell the truth with any book you want to, but lying still gets you in trouble with God, no matter what you believe or don't believe,"
  Well, that's the rub. If you're right (and I think you probably are), unrepentant liars get their due in the afterlife. But we could be wrong about that. It's a matter of faith, of belief, not knowledge. And whether we're right or wrong, anybody, believer or otherwise, can lie under oath. And the reason most of us swear on the Bible is simply that most of us swear on the Bible. It's the "done thing." Like most of us think of bacon and eggs as breakfast food.
  
  But again (and again and again and again) the reason people swear on the Bible (and the scriptural support for doing so or not doing so) is immaterial to this discussion. The important point is this:
  
  In the US, when testifying in court, nobody is legally required to swear on the Bible. They are merely required to promise to tell the truth. Why? Because the US is officially a secular nation. It has a Christian majority, to be sure, and was founded by Christians, no question, but the government they founded was, and is, a secular one, by design.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
If you don't believe what I've written that's fine but as far as proof goes try this on for size. Drive a nice car to several areas with expensives stereo equipment visible inside and leave your doors unlocked and your car windows down you'll have your proof then.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What has this to do with anything? Take a vacation with Jim Jones and drink some kool-aid! Then get back to me!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
It's clear as the nose on your face, what I wrote about morals says we have to lock our doors, windows and belongings because we are not moral people-now that I've gotten back to you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you speaking for where you live, or everywhere in the world? And if you had traveled with JJ you would not be here "getting back to me. And you can't see my nose very clearly either!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
If you question where crime takes place as only in my area then I'm wondering if you've been to school at all. The new has criming being reported all the time. Maybe switching on the TV once and while could enlighten you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I live in the country, SpaS! Once again, do you assume everywhere is the same?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Once again Yes. Where on earth is there no crime- give me the names of these places.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never stated there was no crime anywhere, just not everywhere. And swearing on a fictional book has no bearing on anything. Do you think everyone are criminals, even yourself? Or is it everyone else?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
When we look at American history, We see an invasion.
No different than any other military campaign except it transpired over a long period of time. It was not a Christian movement. It was completely political and economic.

Europe wanted the natural recourses that was on the land occupied by the Indians. The politicians and merchants took it from the Indians to ship to Europe.

It was inexcusable. It was unavoidable unless the Indians had united and converted to the worlds way of thinking, militarily, economically and politically but mostly militarily. And all in the name of progress.
The native Indians way of life was doomed from the start.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, Jerami, that's an oversimplification, too.
  
  The early writings of the colonists talk about vast open lands, free for the taking. But what those guys didn't realize was that the vast open lands hadn't been so open before Europeans first visited them.
  
  North America was full of Indians when Europeans first showed up. And I mean full. The native population was much bigger than the later colonists ever knew. But by the time the Europeans got around to establishing colonies, the vast lads had become open.
  
  Why? Mostly because of smallpox. Europeans had built up a collective immunity to smallpox over the generations, but native Americans had never been exposed to it. After the initial exposure, huge numbers of Indians were wiped out.
  
  It's important to note that this is nobody's fault. The Europeans certainly had commerce on their minds when they went sailing around the Atlantic, but they had no idea what a germ even was, and couldn't have known that an innocent sneeze would doom millions of people to an early, painful death. All anybody knew was that first there were a lot of Indians, and then, within a couple generations, most of them had died horribly of smallpox, leaving America looking pretty empty compared to Europe.
  
  This does not excuse any later, and deliberate, genocide that the early settlers (and later, the US Government) perpetrated on the Indians.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is all true, It is the way of the beast (Progress)
  
  There always comes a point that in order for one to survive someone else doesn't. For one to increase another has to decrease. One job applicant gets the job, everyone else doesn't.
  
  For one fish to eat another smaller fish gotta get ate.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Concerning slavery ? There has always been and always will be one form of slavery or another.
There are many different levels or stages to slavery.
Does the size of a paycheck determine if we are held in bondage?
The slaves at the plantations were treated and fed differently depending upon their talents.
The ropes and chains are invisible today.
We are slaves to our jobs. The slave masters just treats us a bit better today than in the past.
They used to take their slaves to the field and bring them back to the barn at the days end. Today we drive ourselves back and forth.
Today we place ourselves in bondage cause of our addictions, whatever kinds of pleasures that we FEEL that we have to support.
Concerning slavery ? There has always been and always be one form of slavery or another.
There are many diferent levels or stages to slavery.
Does the size of a paycheck determine if we are held in bondage?
The slaves at the plantations were treated and fed differently depending upon their talents.
The ropes and chains are invisable today.
We are slaves to our jobs. The slave masters just treats us a bit better today than in the past.
They used to take their slaves to the field and bring them back to the barn at the days end. Today we drive ourselves back and forth.
Today we place ourselves in bondage cause of our adictions, whatever kinds of pleasures that we FEEL that we have to support.
All poor people are in bondage in some way to the rich people. The dividing line between these are difficult to destinguish
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do our children get sold by our masters? Are we forced to breed another human being? Is there such a thing as good slavery?
  
  Do our bosses have the power of life and death over us?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes they do! it is an invisable power but yes they do, If not the "Master" that we have today? Then another! We can transfet that power to another! But yes the one that you currently serve has power over over you!!!!!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And who is my master, Jerami?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jeff,

You need to read my article again it says nothing about people not lying even though sworn into the legal process. In fact it states to the contrary that people will lie and assuredly only the believer are bound by their convictions. Nonbelievers are nonbelievers and if they choose to lie then I expect they will lie-this has nothing to do with magic so it seems like stupidity is coming from your end in presenting this misconception that witchcraft, or fairies or whatever little idiosyncrasies that you have in perceived was in the context of that message.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, substitute the word "miraculously" for "magically" if you like, the argument still stands: It's really stupid to assume (as most people do) that because someone swore on a Bible to tell the truth that their word is any better than anybody else's.
  
  Heck, I'd feel better about someone's word if they were up front about not being a believer, and refused to swear just to go along with the crowd.
  
  And then there are the Quakers, who are believers, but do not swear oaths as a matter of principle.
  
  And, back to the topic at hand, nobody is required to swear on the Bible in court. That's the law.
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ConsciousObserverposted 13 years ago
This is an easy question, just look at the religion of the last presidents. The majority votes for who believes the same as they do. The majority is Christian, so yes we are a Christian nation of inequality to those not religious or Christian.
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