Lost Another Editor's Choice Hub

1. 94

   PegCole17posted 9 years ago

   I make it a habit to count my EC hubs just to make sure none have gone missing. (OCD) This morning I was surprised to see one of mine lost its designation overnight. There were no edits to it and it still has the same 70 comments and 42 original pictures of a method and a recipe. The only difference that I can see is that someone must have reviewed it and decided it wasn't worthy or they didn't like the particular food that was presented. It has a ratings capsule (with activity) and a nutrition capsule as well as a video.
   
   This is demoralizing, sorry, but it takes the wind out of my sails.

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      bravewarriorposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Peg, have you tried contacting admin to see why the hub lost its rating?

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         No, Shauna, I can't see the point. It's an arbitrary decision. If it has to do with traffic, I thought traffic (or lack thereof) was factored out of our hub scores. Would it follow that traffic shouldn't affect quality either?
         
         If it is about saturation of a topic, there needs to be an alert when we assign a title that the subject has already been covered.
         
         Thanks for the suggestion, though.

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   2. 90

      lobobrandonposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I lost one too the other day. And the one which receives like 1 view a day has an EC still. So lame. It's not even one written or presented well. I would pick 3 of my other hubs instead.

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         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         From what you said here, it would seem that traffic is not a factor in the decision making process to award or remove Editor's choice designation from a hub.

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      MarleneBposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Some time ago, I read in either a HP blog or email that HP will only have X-number of Editor's Choice Awards standing at any given time. If that is the case, then there is no way for us to stand tall on the number of Editor's Choice Awards we have. Whatever the reasoning, it is truly demoralizing to end the day with, let's say, 20 Editor's Choice Awards and then wake up the next morning with 16. I try not to rely on numbers. I tell myself the numbers don't matter, but it still lowers my morale when the numbers decrease.

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Interesting that quality should have a limit. Yes, I agree that waking up to one less quality deemed hub lowers the morale. I actually lost two and gained one new one with no notice or fanfare. One was lost due to being "unfeatured'' due to (lack of) engagement. Little traffic was received for a holiday (Christmas) based recipe, wonder why? Maybe because it's March? Anyhow...

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         lovebuglenaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         How about going from 11 to 4?

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         1. 94

            PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

            This sounds like an instance where intervention is needed to find out why you've lost so many Editor's Choice hubs. I wonder if there is a bug in the program?

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   4. 84

      Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      This is why I opted out of the EC program. All but one of the ones they designated EC gets no traffic. I don't know why they were selected except to fill a gap until something better came along.
      
      When one was unceremoniously tossed back to my domain, I rethought the program and opted out. Then they go and make a big deal out of that program - People can now see it's EC, and other non-EC hubs look lame in related search area and HOTD requirement etc...
      
      I must admit that I resent their suddenly taking an interest in the EC program, and making it such an important accolade when it did nothing for me before, and now not being in the program puts my hubs at a disadvantage. Leaving EC brought my views up 25%.  I won't go back.

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Well said, Solaras.

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   5. 80

      Marina Lazarevicposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I want to chime in and explain what's been going on. With the increased prominence of EC Hubs (e.g., the label in Related Hubs), we recently increased the rate of periodic reviews of old EC Hubs to make sure that they exceed our EC standards (not because of traffic or topic saturation, etc). That being said, some Hubs may have been unlabeled by mistake. Peg, I am truly sorry to say that your Hub was one of them and I am happy to return its EC designation.
      
      If anyone else believes that their Hub lost its EC status by error, or would simply like to know why it lost its status, feel free to email me. Thanks.

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      1. 53

         janderson99posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         It is a pity that there is no Bulletin Board about what is happening at HP. A simple note about this would have saved many forum posts, over three days, and avoided the misunderstanding.
         For example:
         => With the increased prominence of EC Hubs, via the labels, the existing ECs are being reviewed to ensure they meet the standards. This may mean some ECs are dropped. [link to EC stuff]. Email HP if you believe the loss of EC status is an error.
         => + others
         
         This would be very helpful. Very easy to do - could be updated twice a week. It would keep people informed and engaged. It would avoid a lot of hot air and misunderstandings. It would improve the forums by keeping hubbers informed.

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      2. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Oh, man, pass me a napkin so I can wipe this egg off my face, please. I am truly relieved that this was the case. After another quick count this afternoon I realized I had regained my lost one and was amazed. I thought it might have been the pan of lasagna that I sent you as a bribe.
         
         Thank you Marina for restoring my pride (and the EC designation). Pride goeth before destruction, I know.

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            Marina Lazarevicposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            My apologies again for the mix up. Thanks for being so understanding, Peg. I wish I got some of this Lasagne you speak of!

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            1. 94

               PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Check out my Lasagna hub if you would like some. It's make your own lasagna night.
               Thank you again, Marina.
               I feel giddy. (Oh, so giddy)
               Peg

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                  colorfuloneposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Aw, I feel warm and fuzzy inside.

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   6. 82

      peachpurpleposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry to hear that. I thought that traffic is important to maintain the ec

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Peachpurple, read Marina's response to this topic and you'll see that some EC hubs have been reviewed recently and may have lost the label accidentally. I'm happy to say the hub I originally wrote about has been reinstated. Write an email to Marina about any of your hubs that are in question for loss of EC status.
         
         I sent an email to Marina about a different EC hub that lost its desination. Unfortunately, that one was non featured due to lack of engagement (traffic) and therefore lost the Editor's Choice label.

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2. 84

   rebekahELLEposted 9 years ago

   It may have been snuffed out by competition. Maybe a newer, shinier, bells and whistles hub was published on the same topic?  I don't think any of us understand the scoring system.  It makes no sense to me that hubs fluctuate so much with their scores.  One day they're in the 90's and the next day they've dropped. What's demoralizing is a hubber score of 85.  I have no idea why my score has dropped so severely. 
   If I were you, I wouldn't worry about losing the EC rating.  If the hub still receives traffic, that's the important part.

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   1. 90

      lobobrandonposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I'm struggling at 85 as well. From being constant around 96 from the end of last year I've been hovering around 85 too.

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, Lobobrandon, it does seem to negatively affect my motivation and productivity, despite how many times people tell us to ignore the score.

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   2. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I understand the frustration on the hub author scores as well as the hub scores. Everyday there is a new hub at the top of my list and yesterday's top scoring hub has lost rank. Go figure.

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3. 86

   DzyMsLizzyposted 9 years ago

   So, if you once had about 20 EC hubs, then opted out of the program, if we opt back in, do those hubs regain their EC status, given that they have not been edited, or is it starting over with a blank slate?

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   1. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Not sure DzyMsLizzy, I haven't opted out and opted back in so I don't know.
      
      I have edited EC hubs in the past and they regained their status after the edit. But now, with a new crew of editors on board, if they go through a different moderator who doesn't like the hub, who knows?

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4. 84

   Solarasposted 9 years ago

   What's really demoralizing is my CPM - I make the same amount per day as I did last June when I had half as many pageviews. THIS is most discouraging to new writing.

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   1. 58

      Mark Ewbieposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Yep.  Forget the points and accolades.  Money is what counts.  If like me you are faffing about for a dollar a day (if lucky) then it is time to take stock and have a bit of a think.

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      1. 94

         PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Oh, yes, I've been having quite a bit of a think lately, Mark Ewbie. Although it's not about the money, I wouldn't refuse it if I earned more. It is about the feeling of accomplishment and competence in the workplace of writers. Yes, that and a quarter will not buy me a cup of coffee.
         
         More stick men please...

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5. 98

   SmartAndFunposted 9 years ago

   According to the Learning Center, an EC designation isn't permanent. http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/Featured-Hubs
   
   Based upon the information at the link, there are many things that go into consideration for EC other than one's writing skills. Try not to take it personally. To tempt writers into opting into a program that supplies HP with much needed content, HP has dressed EC up as an award for writers, but what it really is (to HP) is a way to populate their subdomain with hand-picked titles. When EC designation disappears, it means HP no longer needs that article in their subdomain. It doesn't mean the quality of your writing isn't up to snuff.
   
   EC is just like the hubscores -- better off ignored, or at least taken with a grain of salt.
   
   The main problem I see with losing EC designation is that the article once again changes URL and is given yet another redirect.

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   1. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Clearly they aren't permanent and thanks, I read the link when this came out. Ignore the score... okay.

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6. 95

   aesta1posted 9 years ago

   As far as the Forum is concerned, it looks like Hubs ores and EC are not ignored by many. It demoralizes. Now, I understand the real reason for EC and why they lose their designation. They are no longer needed in HP sub domain. I am sorry PegCole. I can feel your discouragement.

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   1. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Indeed, Aesta1. With the new emphasis on EC and the labels visible this brings the attention to a new level. And yes, you're right about the discouragement.

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7. 85

   Faith Reaperposted 9 years ago

   Oh, wow, I had no clue the EC was not permanent until I read this post!  I surely do not understand giving something then taking it away, for the hub is still high quality?  I am baffled at this one, Peg.  Just does not make any sense at all to me.

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      janderson99posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      My guess is that it is done using software, not humans and that the formula changes periodically.

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         jansharesposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         +1

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      2. 85

         Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Are you saying that EC hubs are not even read by a real person and chosen? Or are you saying once the hub is selected EC by a person then the software kicks in to determine if it remains EC? What about the requirement now that HOTD must be an EC before it can be chosen as HOTD? Makes no sense to me.

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            janderson99posted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Who knows? HP has mentioned before that it has software systems to assess quality. I find it hard to believe that one of their editors spends their days re-reading and re-assessing all the EC pages. They probably use the original QAP and its amendments after edits and then applies other software metrics to make the judgement. If the formula changes some EC hubs may fail to qualify. This seems to match the observation that some EC hubs drop out without edits to the page. But only HP can answer this and provide the real reason. But HP keeps everything secret.
            
            i recall that HP said that they only want one EC for each topic. If that is the case EC's may drop out if HP finds a better one in that topic. This may depend solely on relative QAP scores. But who knows?

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            1. 85

               Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you, janderson, for sharing your added insight here. You're right ...who knows? That is all very interesting for sure. I remember when they first initiated the EC and they said it was to encourage hubbers to write better quality hubs and to give them a little incentive for their hard work. I have always know about the "bots" but never would have thought it was not a person choosing the EC, being that an editor is a person. So, what about the HOTD then?

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            2. 94

               PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               If it is done by software, then why is it everyday my top scoring hub not only changes but is assigned a lower value than the day before? It's been going on all week. One at a time they are dropping from the high nineties to the eighties with varying top scoring hubs every day.

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         2. 66

            relacheposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Do you realize that the entire staff of HubPages is only 15 people and that the majority of them have only ever studied or been employed at making computer code?
            
            We have nearly 1 million published Hubs now, but there used to be four or fives times more, just a few years ago.
            
            You don't think four million crappy Hubs went away because someone read them, do you?

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               Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               We really should send them a thank you note.

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               1. 94

                  PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  

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                  1. 85

                     Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Tee hee

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               2. 85

                  Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  + 1 LOL

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            2. 94

               PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               They also used to post a box that said "over 50 million unique visits per day" which no longer is the case. There is a reason for that.
               
               If four million crappy Hubs went away, then that would hopefully raise the standard of quality.

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            3. 85

               Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Well, shut my mouth!  I see the light now ...

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               1. 94

                  PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Shut my mouth now, since my foot is in it. Hahah.
                  
                  Please see the update from the HP Staff Marina Lazarevic. HOORAY!

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                     Faith Reaperposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Hooray!  I am so happy, Peg.

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                     aesta1posted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     That is really great. A positive resolution is always welcome.

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            4. 53

               janderson99posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               @Relache - the about page says there are 23 STAFF MEMBERS.

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   2. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, Faith. No sense at all. Did the hub lose its quality somehow?

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8. 82

   tillsontitanposted 9 years ago

   Silly me, I thought Editor's Choice was because a hub was good and met quality standards.  I must've bitten the wrong side of the mushroom when I was reading about EC hubs! 
   If it is true that "better hubs come along" and knock you out of the ballpark then EC is just a passing fancy. 
   I have had several hubs lose their EC rating as well and was wondering the same thing.  Oh well, I guess here in Hubville the rules, the readers, the bots, and anything else, change daily.  I suppose we need to be thankful we have any EC hubs!

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   1. 94

      PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      This made me laugh, Tillsontitan, wrong side of the mushroom...hahaha. Oh, thankful, yes for sure.

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9. 93

   Thelma Albertsposted 9 years ago

   I did not know that we can lose our EC Hubs ratings until I read this forum. I have to check if mine are still there.

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10. 87

    Stacie Lposted 9 years ago

    Well today I noticed all my editors choice hubs are gone!
    The icon no longer appears next to the hub....
    Maybe new ones will be nominated.

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    1. 94

       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Yikes, Stacie, I would question that for sure.

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11. 88

    Sherry Hewinsposted 9 years ago

    I don't make it a habit to count them, but I used to have 11, now I have 8. Honestly, I don't remember which ones used to have this designation that don't anymore, and I have not noticed much difference in my traffic or earnings. I am choosing to ignore this issue.

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       janderson99posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Looks like its a policy of one EC per topic element - part of a new experiment.

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12. 91

    Sue Adamsposted 9 years ago

    If that is the case, then what does this mean:
    
    (Marina on http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/129367#post2717317) some Hubs may have been unlabeled by mistake. Peg, I am truly sorry to say that your Hub was one of them and I am happy to return its EC designation.
    If anyone else believes that their Hub lost its EC status by error, or would simply like to know why it lost its status, feel free to email me.
    
    It appears that losing EC status is a mistake and you can email Marina to have them re-instated.

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    1. 82

       sallybeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I contacted Marina to find out why one of my EC Hubs had changed status. She informed me there were actually two which required a few changes in order for them to return to their EC hubs status. Each point was detailed and she made clear what was required.
       One was that the RSS feed which I used in the past and is no longer valid on HubPages.
       I think that all the changes suggested were necessary and improved the readers experience.
       if we want EC hubs to reflect quality then we should be willing to make small changes if they are necessary,
       The Hubs were reinstated to EC within minutes of my making these small changes
         The knowledge I gained through this experience will allow me to improve all my hubs and to bring them into line with current rules on this site. Definitely well worth dropping Marina a line.
       Thank you HubPages.

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13. 47

    GiftsByDianaposted 9 years ago

    Glad to see that you found out what likely happened.
    I am still learning the H.P. stuff and wish I had more time to explore things here such as the E.C. program... and to write, but running a gift shop, raising a family, helping my Dad, and making what I sell leave very little time for sleep as it is - LOL

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    1. 94

       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Wow, Diana. You sound quite industrious. That's a lot to handle. Writing will come to you when your life slows down a bit. I find that I write a lot when I can't sleep.

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          GiftsByDianaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I sure try 
          I had my hands full already and then my Mom got ill so I took over her gift shop to keep it open for her and we lost her almost 2 years ago.  Now, I run it for Daddy and I.

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14. 85

    Robinposted 9 years ago

    Keep in mind that we are trying to only designate Hubs EC when they are the very, very best on HubPages.  We want all of HubPages to be top notch and EC be the top percent.  That being said, we see a lot of Hubs that would be EC if not for one errant product, link, or poor photo.  Like Sally said, it could be one or two small things that makes the difference.  Here are a few things that I recommend doing if you would like your Hub to be EC, or you just want to give your Hubs a spring cleaning:
    
    -Double and triple check your grammar and spelling (one or two spelling errors could knock you out of EC status. Also, make sure your title and subtitles use proper title case.)
    -If you have products that aren't essential to the topic, remove them.  (Check your amazon earnings under My Account > Earnings > Amazon Sales Report.  Have you made any sales, if not, then the products are probably not useful.)
    -Remove links that are not extremely beneficial to the reader.  (Even links to your own Hubs can be distracting.  Ask yourself if you are really leaving that link for your reader.)
    -Make sure your content is current, free of factual errors, clearly answers the question of your title, and goes above and beyond other content on your topic on the web.  Google your Hub's title, does the competition beat your Hub?  If so, add content and improve it.  In order to be EC, you Hub has to be exceptionally well written, thoughtful, in depth, and original. 
    -Use original photos if possible, and if not creative commons.  If we have two Hubs with the exact same text on how to bake a cake, the one with step-by-step original, high-quality photos will always win out. 
    -Not an EC deal breaker, but something I recommend while you are editing is to make all of your capsules full width.  Since all capsules are full width on mobile, and more and more traffic is moving to mobile, make sure your capsules are in the right place by making them full width.   
    
    If you have had an EC Hub that is no longer, I am happy to review it.  Also, if you see a Hub that is EC and shouldn't be, please email us.  We are only human and do make mistakes!  You can email me @ robin.edmondson@hubpages.com.

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    1. 94

       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Robin, Thank you for this helpful guide to make sure our hubs meet the criteria to make Editor's Choice. These tips, like making the capsules full width, will be essential going forward as more mobile users access the site. Again, thank you for the guidance.
       Peg

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    2. 82

       sallybeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Robin, this is very helpful, thank you very much.

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       GiftsByDianaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you Robin !

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15. 81

    snakeslaneposted 9 years ago

    Well, alrighty then! When I, someday get an editor's choice awarded Hub I will keep a very close eye on it, and I will follow all the guidelines outlined above. Whew!

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16. 72

    Thief12posted 9 years ago

    This is a long topic so I'm not gonna read everything. I'm just curious about why 3 of my EC Hubs lost it. In recent days, some of my Hubs fell under the "Not Featured - Traffic" classification. After some revision, I resubmitted them, but they are no longer EC. Is this common? Will they get EC again?

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       Robinposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       They likely won't become EC again unless you update and improve them—minor revisions probably won't make a difference.  Take a look at my suggestions above. If you have style tips when editing your Hub, make those changes in your Hub.  The good news is that you have started with a great foundation! 
       
       I think it's important to remember that we have to be updating and improving our Hubs if we want them to remain relevant.  We have found that editing and updating Hubs in HubPro has had a significant, positive impact on reader satisfaction and traffic.

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       1. 72

          Thief12posted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Well, I can understand part of the intention, but I don't necessarily agree. My hubs are losing EC status when they lose traffic, and they get labeled as such "Not Featured - Traffic". So I have to ask, is it a traffic issue or a quality issue? Are those two mutually exclusive? Does the less traffic means that the quality of my hub decreased somehow?
          
          Like I said, I can understand the intention of HubPages in encouraging people to keep Hubs updated, but I don't agree that it should be necessary, or in this case "mandatory". If my hubs were deemed worthy once, why shouldn't they be now? The quality of my writings and my opinion is still there. Why should I tweak with what was already worthy, adding filler or such just to keep up with HP?
          
          I can understand that in Hubs that deal with current topics or stuff that changes periodically, but since most of my Hubs focus on film/TV reviews, my opinion about a film/TV won't necessarily change with time. So why should I update the Hub? Bad analogy perhaps but that's like telling a painter that he should go back to his works every now and then and add a different splash here or there just to keep it updated. Like I said, I disagree with the criteria.
          
          I've been trying to make minor changes to some and trying to keep the traffic coming, but I don't believe I should do big changes to what I already wrote just to keep up with HP's pace. As it is, I've gone from 11 EC's to just 6. Very disappointing.

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    2. 94

       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I wonder if this is the way outside readers view our "long" articles. Sometimes I find myself looking at the side bar to see how much scrolling remains and wonder if it is worth the time invested.

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17. 88

    Sherry Hewinsposted 9 years ago

    I used to have 11 EC hubs, now I have 8. It took me a while to remember which ones lost that status, since I didn't really pay much attention to it. I notice that one of them was about a musician who was exciting and active, but now has not made a new album in several years, and only plays local gigs instead of touring as she used to. That makes me think that if a topic was hot before, and now it's not, that might be a factor in losing the EC status, which makes perfect sense.

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    1. 94

       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       It does not seem to me that the quality of a hub should have any bearing on the popularity of its subject matter. The quality remains despite the fact that the musician is no longer active.

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          Shades-of-truthposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I agree, Peg!

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    2. 85

       Robinposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       If the Hub is out of date, it could lose its EC status.  Updating it and adding more content and information is a great idea—even if its EC status doesn't change. 

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18. 82

    lovebuglenaposted 9 years ago

    I had 11 EC hubs and last time I checked I am now down to 4. Can't fathom why this happened. I also don't get what the point is of giving a hub EC status and then taking it away. It's like giving someone an award for something and then saying hey you don't deserve it we are taking it back.

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    1. 82

       sallybeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I would suggest that you contact HubPages Staff to find out the reasons for this happening.   I did and found it a very useful exercise.  There may be a few simple reasons for this happening.

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          PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

          +1

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       PegCole17posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Definitely send Marina Lazarevic an email about this and let her check on them for you. I have actually had an EC hub reinstated after it lost its designation thanks to Marina's help.
       
       I recently lost two EC hubs due to being non-featured for lack of traffic. It seems to me that this is a non valid reason to take away an Editor's Choice designation. We can't control the traffic, only the quality.

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       MarleneBposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I certainly agree with your comment lovebuglena. No matter what the reason is, it is still disheartening when an award is taken away. What if other industries operated that way? Imagine how depressed an artist would be to receive an Oscar and then have it taken away... for whatever the reason. I would rather not receive the award in the first place than to receive it and then have it taken away.

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    4. 85

       Robinposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Please read my above statement to Thief12; I think the same comments apply.  Particularly, I'd check your style tips.  If you have a style tip, the likelihood that your Hub will get an EC status is low.  You have a great foundation, too, Lena.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge with HubPages. 
       
       Here are two articles that I find incredibly pertinent to overall quality for everyone on HubPages.  The Editors and I have gone over these articles and many of the principles have been driving HubPro since the beginning.
       
       Quality Content Factors
       The Importance of User Intent

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19. 68

    David Stone1posted 9 years ago

    For me, the thing has been a two-fold issue. First, the lack of transparency means we don't know what HP is doing or why and have no assure that they do either. Second, I've long had the impression that the admins don't really care much about what we like or don't like. When I was finally able to accept these facts, I finally stopped creating hubs. I wasn't crazy about giving it up, but the environment is just not writer friendly. Otherwise, why would they have struck such a bargain with the devil, otherwise known as Seth Godin?

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       Robinposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       How can we be more transparent, David?  We want to share as much as we can to help Hubbers and our community succeed!  We try to educate as best we can on what qualifies as high-quality content.  I'm sure we can improve and any suggestions are appreciated. 
       
       
       
       I'm not sure what this means.  Would you mind elaborating?  Thanks!

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    WriteAngledposted 9 years ago

    Reading this thread makes me even more glad that I opted out of the EC programme!

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