I'm so saddened to see the lack of integrity in honor around us and so much of it is accepted. Celebrities lie to the public, break contracts, and mislead their fans. (e.i. Favre who kept telling everyone time and again that he was really retired and then changed his mind despite how it might effect others.) People around us tell lies to our faces and then expect us to be ok with it. Why do we accept it?
I think society has become complacent to the world and turns a blind eye to what is going on in Hollywood and in society in general. They figure it doesn't involve them so why worry or do anything about it. Integrty has gone by the wayside and it is sickening to see. One day they will get woke up when something bites them in their life and not until.
I agree with a lot of what has been expressed here and yet I don't see it so much as sad as pathetic. Celebrities, Wall St, CEO's, religious leaders, business owners all lie to get ahead.
Nothing is ever going to change that.
It is harder to trust people and parents have a huge responsibility to teach their children not only values but street smarts.
We change what we can change.
I have to give you that. Hadn't looked at it like that. It saddens me when I cannot take other people at their word and have to anticipate lies and such. I think that the only thing that has changed publicly is that we don't expect others to have integrity.
I think those are unrealistic expectations. Very few people ever had total integrity. Most of us have some. Very few don't have any. I don't think it is anything to be sad about, yet it is definitely something to account for
How much a person values integrity is an individual decision. It does seem that more and more people value integrity much less than other values. The question is why?
My personal opinion is that it is due to the lack of emphasis on Judeo-Christian concepts of right and wrong and the whole idea of penance. Of course that could have something to do with being brought up Catholic. Even I have more than a few problems with the definition of "sin" as the Church describes it. Perhaps I should say it's the emphasis on moral relativity that drives our current attitudes on the value of integrity.
IDK LDT. I am always or almost always on time. If I am running late, I do my best to let this known to the other party.
But I don't know right from wrong, especially in Judeo-Christian denomination.
I just like being on time.
Heh, that's why I added that bit about moral relativism. Aya's example is pretty much talks about that phenomenon. However wrongly religious texts are interpreted by the faithful, the foundation of religion is about morality. De-emphasizing religion has done wonders in breaking down inhumane practices, but has also allowed inhumane practices to flourish. In addition to the minor stuff that wears at the fabric of society until only a semblance of civilization is left.
Ledefensetech, okay, now I think we may be getting to the bottom of our different take on things. When you were talking about how people have "free will" to violate "natural law", you sounded as if it were a religious issue. People have free will to violates "God's law" precisely because it is not natural. They don't have free will to violate gravity.
Public Education? Dr. Spock? There's plenty of reasons that we don't hold people to their word anymore. It has to do with us. Because we see someone else get away with being dishonest we tend to think that the same holds true for the rest of us. If we don't hold people responsible for being honest, we can't be held responsible for being dishonest.
Honor is important in a society where there are grave consequences for dishonorable behavior. If there are no consequences, the dishonorable thrive.
That's why turning the other cheek and practicing knee-jerk forgiveness is not the best strategy.
Yep. Where there is no meaningful penalty, the path of least resistance is the one that people take. Culturally there is clearly no penalty for lack of integrity, and religion is ineffectual in imparting even plausible faith-based penalties on any large scale anymore (all of them, I'm not pointing fingers).
Toss in equivocation about "right and wrong" and the abuse of rhetoric (think Plato's Gorgias), and voila, we have a culture of douchebagedness.
Thanks, that was the point I was aiming at. I have to admit I'm embarrassingly deficient when it comes to the classics. I'll have to give the Gorgias a read. Know of any good editions for beginners?
Any of the Penguin editions should be fine, they're usually pretty decent translations.
I prefer to look at the good. I think that integrity is a beneficial quality to have. There will always be weak people who rely on the strength of others to make them feel complete. I rely on my own inner strength, and my own understanding to make decisions. I believe that there is still a lot of integrity out there. Integrity is silent, whereas, ignorance is loud.
I agree. I try to find the good in everything.
I have a story. The other day my husband was on a forum for unemployed people. One person made that comment that when he applies for a job, he takes the job posting (description) pastes it to his resume & then turns it white...so when the company scans it & looks for keywords, his resume gets pulled up faster because all the keywords are in the posting & on his resume. My husband told me about it & said what ever happened to integrity?
RGraf, I think it has changed a little lately in the US. It's a cultural issue, and the culture is in flux.
Take punctuality, for instance. I once expressed disappointment that someone was late for an appointment. She didn't apologize for being late. Instead, she said: "Why can't you just understand that sometimes I will be late. I'd understand if you were late."
But that's just the problem. If we expect people to be late, we're all going to be late, and the time lag will get longer and longer... There are only twenty-four hours in a day.
It's only when we are willing not to be so understanding that any sort of standard can be maintained.
Perhaps the difference is the way everything is reported these days. From Youtube, TMZ and the interent as a whole, we see a lot more of everyone from celebrities to politicisns, so the more we see, the more we don't like.
Perhaps it seemed better because we only saw what they wanted us to see?
The thing is, those without integrity get all the attention. There are a lot more people who do live with integrity, you just don't hear about them very often.
Very cool topic.
UW -- I think you hit the nail on the head with the squeaky wheel getting the grease. Immorality gets a lot more attention than quietly following the rules and one's conscience.
The thing is, as long as there are human beings, there will be scammers, cheats, liars and thieves. Always have been, always will be. It is as much part of human nature as being kind, loving and altruistic. And always, always seems to attract more attention. Always.
Not saying it's right. It just is.
Shades, did you go trough spiritual transformation? You look like a mirror image of yourself.
"douchebaggedness"? I always thought it was "douchebaggery". I was at a party once, and I had one too many vodka-crans. I told a guy he was the poster boy for douchebaggery. I know it was mean, but this guy had it coming.
Well, perhaps douchebaggery is the activity from which the state of douchebaggedness comes.
And, if the guy had it coming, then perhaps that served as an instance of the penalty of which we were previously pointing out the lack thereof. You've contributed to the maintenance of goodness in a douchebagifying world. We all salute you.
I don't think people break promises or their word on purpose all the time. Favre said he would retire, but its hard when you love something so much and the opportunity (and $) is there. You might think you can stop (or retire from) something, but circumstances change.
There are different cases of dishonesty. Breaking a promise you made to yourself or your fans is one thing, scamming people out of money is another.
LDT -- Shadesbreath is a generous guy. I'm sure he'd be happy to lend you his copy, but he spilled beer on it during his recent transformation .
LOL, LDT. So true. Not to mention Metaxa!
I've heard the Greeks also share their ouzo with their sheep. This helps the sheep to enjoy the Greek classics also.
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