Simple English test

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   theraggededgeposted 3 years ago

   I really wish HubPages would implement a simple English test before granting membership to new hubbers. It would save people wasting their time. I'm sure it could be automated. And I realise that some will copy and paste, but it might weed out some of the really bad ones.
   
   At the very least, a notice on joining, warning people that only top notch English skills are acceptable.

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      OldRosesposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Agreed.  An English test and then if the article doesn't pass QAP, a link to the Learning Center instead of to the forums.  Let newbie authors do some work on their own before coming to the forums to get help with polishing their articles.  Hopefully both of those requirements would weed out people who will never be successful here and just wasting everyone's time.

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      Al Stineposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Its a tricky one for Hubpages because they need the membership numbers to be going upwards. Implementing an English entry test would most likely negatively affect the membership numbers. Its a game of numbers, if they don't sign up for Hubpages, then they will sign up elsewhere and Hubpages wouldn't want that.

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         Sue Adamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         “its a tricky one for Hubpages…” Really?
         
         It’s not tricky at all. We need accomplished writers to be going forwards. We don’t need time wasters who will probably never get featured, let alone get a spot on the niche sites.
         
         And, in addition to a simple test:
         
         “…if the article doesn't pass QAP, a link to the Learning Center instead of to the forums.”
         
         is an excellent idea!
         
         We could devise a simple 20 questions test based on a mixture of some of these online tests:
         
         1. For comprehension
         https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/test-y … l-english/
         
         2. For  grammar  and spelling
         https://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/st … r-spelling
         
         Or this one from Oxford Online English
         3. https://www.oxfordonlineenglish.com/eng … st/grammar

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            Al Stineposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            The odds of an accomplished writer signing up for Hubpages might be extremely low. Hubpages is competing with other sites for accomplished writers. Filtering out would be members puts Hubpages at a competitive disadvantage. They will lose their in-house traffic, the forum discussions would be empty, the number of followers for most hubbers would reduce. It might take days before we receive a new accomplished writer. The overall standing of Hubpages would be severely affected.
            I understand the need for quality and standards at Hubpages, but if they do not have the numbers, low quality sites would most likely outrank them.

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               Sue Adamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Re:
               "They will lose their in-house traffic, the forum discussions would be empty, the number of followers for most hubbers would reduce. It might take days before we receive a new accomplished writer."
               
               In-house traffic and forum posts don't generate any revenue. The forum may, once again, become an interesting and useful feature without all the "help me pass QAP" posts which in fact is a means of HP management passing the buck of editing onto members.
               
               It's fine to ask for specific advice on a specific issue in the forums. That is what it's for. But to expect members to read through or edit entire articles consisting of inferior content is asking a bit much.

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                  Al Stineposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  In-house traffic is not designed to generate revenue, it is there to attract advertisers and sponsors. If you visit a site or page and you find the last forum discussion was last month, you are likely to skip that site for lack of activity.
                  Your argument is well justified, but implementing entry-level membership filters does more harm than good to the overall standing of Hubpages.
                  I would suggest some experienced hubbers can sign up as tutors, so that the QAP issues are directed at them. A lot of hubbers have shown a willingness to help new and struggling hubbers. Other hubbers can continue using the forums without complaining about the gibberish articles floating around.

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               theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               This makes no sense to me, I'm afraid. Rarely does anyone who is a poor writer at the start, improve enough to become a decent earner. Yes, it does happen but those people who have the determination are few and far between.
               
               HubPages is not competing for writers. There are more than enough hubs being published on a daily basis. What HubPages is competing for is advertisers, and if the site/s keeps publishing dross, those advertisers are going to leave.
               
               You might notice that on hubpages.com there are a lot of poorly written articles. Sometimes I think the editorial team simply give up and allow articles to be featured when they really shouldn't be. Those articles wallow on the HP site, don't get much traffic, and don't earn any money (and I know there are exceptions). So having numbers over quality doesn't really work.
               
               Internal traffic and forums don't matter at all. They are just to keep us interested.

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      Titiaposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I've suggested a simple English test for newbies long time ago. English is not my native language either, but I managed with a little help of the editors to get a few articles on the niche sites. I'm very grateful for the editors help because I learn a lot from them. I've learned English in school and nowadays they start teaching it in many primary schools in the Netherlands. I've lived in the States for two years (got married there 50 years ago), but speaking the language is quite different from writing it. I think most of the newbies from the last year(s) are using an online translation programm most of the time.
      
      English not being my native language is the main reason I never respond to the cry for help to pass QAP in the forum, because I feel I'm not qualified to give a soud advice.

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         MizBejabbersposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Funny, Titia, I find that some of our best writers are ESL writers, and it is a real joy to read their work. They take more care to use proper grammar, and maybe they learned more formal English and haven't been subjected to American and English street speech like native speakers have. I am a retired editor, 30 years as a legal editor, also 3 years as a newspaper copyeditor. I notice things like that.

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      Joshua Crowderposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Good idea. Also, I wish there was a way for writers to easily let other writers know about errors in their work.

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         theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         You can do it in the comments section of the article. Just include, 'Please don't approve this comment'.

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   FatFreddysCatposted 3 years ago

   For to what means you English simple?
   
   Is am my not OK to write articals?

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      theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      No, that's fine. Perfect. Click 'Write' to get started

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         FatFreddysCatposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Horray. Can u help pls with PayPal get? I no have can in my country PayPal account. What a shoot.

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            theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            I can help you, young man. I'll let you have my PayPal email address and you can have your earnings paid straight into my account. How does that sound?

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               FatFreddysCatposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               

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   Rupert Taylorposted 3 years ago

   I've given up offering help to aspiring newbies. I found I was just writing the same things over and over again and changing nothing. English uses the definite and indefinite articles. You can't promote your apartment-finding service /IT company/best ever SEO provider in Mumbai or Islamabad. No, we don't want another diatribe about Kashmir. You can't steal images. This is not a blogging platform. You need to read the Learning Center. Etc, etc.
   
   At my time of life, there can't be a lot of time left so I'll enjoy it as best I can writing about what interests me and finding good sources of inexpensive wine.

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   bhattucposted 3 years ago

   This would definitely help especially in automated mode.

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   paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago

   The problem is HP can't pay the salaries required to get it right.
   
   As an example here's a flash fiction article that was rejected by one of HP's hires; they just don't get the nuances and Americanisms. Make your own conclusions.
   
   -start-
   
   How I Got My Armadillo
   
   I decided I wanted an armadillo. Actually I have always wanted an armadillo. It’s just now I finally decided to do something about it.
   
   I visited several pet shops. No armadillos.
   
   I went to some animal shelters. No armadillos.
   
   I finally went online. There were indeed armadillos. But it appears the Environmental Protection Agency also really likes armadillos. So much so that all the paperwork and other bureaucracy made it impossible to get one.
   
   What was an armadillo lover to do?
   
   I thought and thought. And then the brilliant idea occurred…
   
   I went and bought myself a 3-D printer. They seem to be on sale all over the place now. Mine even had voice capability.
   
   I took it home. I started reading the directions. Everything was fine. Until I got to the chapter on raw materials…
   
   What raw material does one use to print an armadillo? I looked in the index. Nothing there regarding armadillos. Looks like I was stumped… But then I heard a noise at the window.
   
   It was one of the neighborhood cats. I opened the window and brought him inside. I explained the situation to him. He wanted no part of it. I reminded him that he still had eight lives left and threw in a bribe that I’d feed him for a week. He thought about it and then agreed.
   
   I put the cat in the printer.
   
   Stupid cat.
   
   I fired up the printer. “One armadillo,” said I.
   
   “Specifications please,” said the printer.
   
   Back to the instruction manual… There it was. Got to get the printing specifications/patterns for any given item one wishes to print.
   
   Back online. To my utter lack of surprise, there were no armadillo schematics to be found. But then I had the insight to narrow my search. I limited it to .gov sites. The NSA popped up. I went there. And there it was. Armadillo schematic 42.
   
   “What are they doing with that?” I wondered.
   
   There was a comment box, but I decided not to ask. Downloaded the specs and departed.
   
   Transferred the specs to the printer. The printer made various noises. Time passed. Sure enough, an armadillo began to appear. Took about a half-hour, but there it was. One complete armadillo.
   
   It wasn’t moving.
   
   “It’s not moving,” I told the printer.
   
   “Taser it,” said the printer.
   
   So I did. Apparently the spark-of-life thing. The armadillo stood up.
   
   And that is how I got my armadillo.

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      Bushra Iqbalposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Loved it!

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         paradigmsearchposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks. HP editor/curator rejected it. Is now on my website. Flash fiction never gets traffic, but oddly mine has for the last month. No idea why.
         
         Been wanting to add more, but no motive.

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      Titiaposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      LOL Love it too. One should read one of these every day before going to sleep. It makes a lousy day disappear in no time.

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      Ben716posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I love it. Funny and interesting. Poems and short stories including flash fiction perform poorly on Hubpages.

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      lobobrandonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Amazing. You should try posting links to your stuff on Reddit if you want to get some traffic. People there love stuff like this. They prefer having to read the entire thing on Reddit, but having a link out to find more from you would get you some traction.

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   Kenna McHughposted 3 years ago

   There are English tests on the Internet, and it is not hard to implement one as a screening process. When I apply for freelance writing gigs, there are times when I do one.

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   jansharesposted 3 years ago

   I've always wondered why there isn't some type of screening. A basic writing sample as part of the sign-up criteria would cover everything. But I believe Al has a point - it's about numbers. This issue has come up often over the years. HP would have addressed it if they wanted by now. It's not in their model. The QAP is the screening.

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   CYong74posted 3 years ago

   I think the main problem is that most such requests for help end up on a sour note.
   
   The one posting the request openly asks for editing, etc. Or, they ignore advice given and report the request later.
   
   Or, they react negatively. (I just had a case of this) They give lame excuses bordering on accusations. Some of the most appalling ones even pull in religious beliefs. Such as I am a "....." It's my style to be moral, kind etc etc.
   
   Personally, I think what's most frustration is that many of these powerful writers obviously do not even read English articles; their grammar errors are that elementary. Thus, whatever guide HubPages direct them to, they probably wouldn't even read it, or understand the instructions. The best way might be for HubPages to prepare a better email response, one that at least detail the things we keep regurgitating. I believe this would at this screen out some of the really unbothered ones.

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      DrMark1961posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I think that if HP sent them an email saying "Your English is horrible. You are never going to be a writer on this site" they would still post on the forums and ask for help.
      "But, everyone I now tell me my English is  and better and I shewld be a writer"
      I just read all those nasty comments that guy made to you. That is unfortunately all too common, and why I assume such a hostile persona when I am talking to the newbies.

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         CYong74posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         That brat is absurd. All I did was point out he didn't write to his title. Now he's accusing me of forcing my feedback onto his pretense of an article.

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   Ben716posted 3 years ago

   Not all of us are conversant in English language since some of us are not English native speakers. If Hubpages implements English tests and some fail taking it, it will crush their dreams of being writers although it's evident there are some who are out for the sole purpose of making money. They don't care whether their content is educational, informational, or helpful.
   
   I joined Hubpages over nine years ago. My English wasn't very bad. It was at least acceptable. I have made strides because of continuously posting and editing my articles on various revenue article sharing sites. Let's give them an opportunity to develop their talent/gift and to strength their English language.
   Although it is obvious some writers never bother to edit their articles. Their raw articles become finished products at one go.
   Sometimes, it is difficult to choose.

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      theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Of course not, but it's very obvious when the new hubber really needs to go off and work on their language skills before being published here. To keep writing and have your articles rejected is disappointing and disempowering. Especially if the person has real latent talent. However, this is a site for English readers and speakers so those skills are necessary.
      
      As someone who is utterly hopeless at languages, I am constantly amazed how brilliant some people are at writing in English, even though it's not their first language. It's like a magical power to me

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         Bushra Iqbalposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         You helped me with your advice and I will always be grateful for it.

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            theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            You are welcome, Bushra

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         Ben716posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Now, I get you. You're right that people should put an effort in improving their English language.

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      OldRosesposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Ben, I think that you are confusing writers whose ability to write in English is fairly good and just need some practice with writers who have almost no ability to speak, read or write in English.  Some of them even use translation software and their grasp of English is so tenuous that they don't realize that what the software has produced is gibberish.  It is these writers to whom we are referring.  They will never be published here unless they are willing to put in the work to learn to speak, read and write English.  The majority of those writers are not willing to do any work to improve their English.  They just want to earn a fast buck.

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         Ben716posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you for clarifying, Old Roses. Now, we are on the same line.

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    PaulGoodman67posted 3 years ago

    I think the QAP process is generally good enough at screening out the worst articles. That's the important thing. The people posting in the forums for help have already been rejected usually.
    
    Just ignore the requests for help in the forums if it's due to lack of English skills, take a deep breath and don't get involved. Responding just keeps the requests up near the top of the forum list.
    
    As long as the vast majority of bad articles don't get published and bring the overall quality down, I'm happy.

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       MizBejabbersposted 3 years agoin reply to this

       You've made me recall a question I've had for months. Sometimes I see a forum started by an established writer of several years asking people to read his/her article and express their opinions. I haven't responded because it seemed to me that it was just a ploy to get people to read the article and build traffic on it. These people don't seem to be asking for help getting an article published. Do I have the wrong impression, or do some people do this?

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          PaulGoodman67posted 3 years agoin reply to this

          You wouldn't build significant traffic and it wouldn't last very long, so it would be a poor strategy to pursue.

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    Sue Adamsposted 3 years ago

    I have seen the "help me improve my article" feature used for self promotion too.
    
    On a more general note, ignoring unwanted forum posts has proved to be an effective way to make irritating posts eventually disappear.

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    CYong74posted 3 years ago

    I've long wondered about something. When you type a nonsensical word into a capsule, a wavy red underline will appear to highlight your error. Same when there is no space after full stops.
    
    Does that appear for everyone? Asking 'cos I'm baffled why some so many of these unfeatured writers do not suspect something is wrong in the face of a sea of red.

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       theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

       It's because you have spellcheck enabled in your browser. So useful. I highly recommend it to everyone.

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          CYong74posted 3 years agoin reply to this

          No wonder.

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       lobobrandonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

       Bev already answered you, but in addition to what she says, you can have spell check enabled and have your browser set up in another language. In that case, everything you type is going to be underlined and you'd therefore not know what is wrong (if you don't really know how to spell a word). Whenever I write in German I see a pool of red.

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    SmartAndFunposted 3 years ago

    I think back when HP first instituted the policy of automatically linking writers to the forums when their articles do not pass the QAP, forum-goers were more eager and happy to help, due to at least these four reasons:
    
    1. There were many, many more active forum members (hundreds of them), so the burden did not fall on a small group.
    
    2. Members had not yet grown weary of what would become a constant stream of people asking for free editing and Hubbing lessons as a result of HP automatically linking people to the forums when their hubs do not pass the QAP.
    
    3. The internal search function worked well back in those days, so writers could search a key word or two and find useful posts on whatever topic they needed help with, meaning they could more easily find help on their own, reducing the number of repetitive forum requests.
    
    4. The Learning Center was neatly and logically organized -- with subheads, by topic -- rather than today's endlessly scrolling screen of articles in what seems like random order, which again as in #3 above, meant newbies were more likely to be able to find help on their own, which lowered the number of repetitive forum posts.
    
    So today, with only a handful of active forum members left, an internal search function that doesn't work well at all and a Learning Center in which it is difficult to find relevant, helpful information, it is no wonder the forum regulars have grown tired of answering the same questions over and over and over in the numerous automated help request posts.
    
    When I was a new hubber I asked probably more than my fair share of newbie questions and am very grateful for the polite, encouraging answers I received. Once I understood the site better, I made a concerted effort to pay it forward and do my share of helping newbies. However, once forum user numbers dwindled and the forums became an uninteresting stream of repetitive automated posts asking for help, I became frustrated and lost interest.
    
    I would love to see HP implement an automated, basic English test.The way the QAP is set up currently, it does waste people's valuable time. It wastes the time put in writing articles by those who are not yet fluent enough in English to pass the QAP, and it wastes the time of the forum members who use part of their day to voluntarily read and answer the help requests, giving the same basic answers over and over. I can understand why these forum members are frustrated.
    
    I admire the "old-timers" who stick with it, every day answering yet another batch of the same questions, sometimes getting angry responses in return. They are under no obligation to help, yet they do. If there is a bit of snark in their answers, maybe that's a sign that the automated forum-posting feature has worn out its welcome and it is time for Maven to make changes to the system so that it is more in line with the state of HP in 2020.
    
    A basic English competency test is a step in that direction, IMHO. Going back to the old internal search function that not only worked better than today's but also separately searched articles and forum posts would help, also, as would restructuring the Learning Center landing page by using subheads and placing help articles in logical groups.
    
    Just my two cents.

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       theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

       And extremely valuable two cents they are
       
       I really can't bear when people don't get answers to their questions and requests for feedback, otherwise I'd have stopped doing it ages ago.
       
       And you are right, when I read utter tosh, especially misogynistic, 19th century claptrap (like 'this is helpful for females in the kitchen'), I do get snarky. Those articles deserve all the snark they get
       
       Having said that, when I read an article where the writer has clearly put in a ton of work, has made the effort to write something original and engaging, it makes it worthwhile and it's a pleasure to help them out.
       
       But, yes, basic automated English test (with built-in plagiarism checker), please, staff.

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          SmartAndFunposted 3 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry for the late reply, but just wanted to say you really are a star for giving so much of your time and expertise. HP/Maven is very fortunate that you do so much for them. I hope they realize it.

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             theraggededgeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

             Only just saw this. Thank you

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       lobobrandonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

       Your two cents sum it up very well.

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    Rupert Taylorposted 3 years ago

    SmartandFun. Very well put.

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    Pcunixposted 3 years ago

    Doesn’t the Hubpro promotion take care of this? A difficult to read article will not be promoted to a better site. 
    
    I think that’s enough.

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