I don't know about you, I feel like vomiting... Scroll down all the way to see Pam's comment... Now tell me more about what a nice person is she, thank you bunches...
I don't see why everybody's so upset with Pam.
She left. She was unconfortable it seems, and she is giving her opinion.
Everybody's being too dramatic lately.
I don't see anything wrong in having a different opinion from this ' comunity' of hubbers.
Cause people here liked her quite a bit, and still do. It is not really a pleasant experience to hear such words about yourself from someone you like or even adore.
I know you believe or pretend to believe words don't hurt. Well, they do. At least most of us mortals.
But she's not talking about you. She's only commenting on her experience.
Why take it personally ?
And as other hubbers say in this thread, she's entitled to her opinions.
I can't see anything wrong in that.
We are not uniformed, or are we ?
Her trashing the site like this is akin to calling us all either con artists (if we know what is going on but still stay, helping to fool innocent people like her) or idiots (if we don't know those obvious things she pointed out). And this is quite personal
Something must be wrong with me, because I don't get it.
It must be my way of 'seeing' things.
I am not HP. I only write here. I don't feel touched by her words.
In fact you're right. I don't get touched by anybody's words.
Not in a forum.
In private and intimate mails with friends, yes, of course!
Very good advice tantrum. The past few days are teaching me that I probably don't belong in forums. Need to spend free time with real friends.
...now do we think some one has emailed Pam and she's actually following this thread?
LOL Absolutely, and more than one person. There are people who like to be spit in the face.
Maybe. I don't see a problem with that either.
People should cool off in forums!
If you take things too seriously, you get hurt in the end, and by people you don't even know how they look like !
just think how weird is that !
yes, i'm beginning to understand.
just an irony about Pam reading this perhaps. Sometimes you say things one to one - things you don't mean to say or wish you hadn't. At the local coffee shop. It's bad but not too bad. After a few days it fades away. But if you post on the internet - under your own name - google caches it and it truly takes on a life of its own.
i am duct taping my fingers from now on.
I think ,that if you post something, and then regret it, you haven't used your brains LOL
I know I say a lot of nasty things, but I don't regret them. and If by any chance I do, I apologise.
We're human beings after all. And again I say : chill out !
No big deal.
Yesterday I apologise to Lynn Chandler and her daughter. Because I made a mistake.
I don't feel bad about it
Would you ?
You're an intelligent woman. Don't take this 'things' seriously !
absolutely true, I've been caught up in a drama for an hour that I have no stake in and don't really care about. I need to impose some discipline.
Ah! But drama is very entertaining !
For me is a break between all the things I have to do in real life !
Well said Misha. I've been kind of trying to get my arms around this whole thing emotionally.
And UV sorry about snickering at TK and Lita. I really read it as he was being a pest - and that the word stalking was used in an exagerated sense. If he is truly stalking, then there are laws, restraining orders and all of that which can be used to truly deal with the situation. And I don't know enough to say if they should be.
I'm appalled. I thought Pam was nice, too. What they are saying there - the nay-sayers - is quite ridiculous.
I have never in my life done any sort of writing online or affiliate marketing and Hubpages has taught me so much I though my brain would explode at times. I love it here; I'm making money - not much, but enough considering what I put into it. I took the time to read and learn and ask questions, which is what the idiots seem not to have done.
The fact that the forums play a part in their feeling the way they do shows how stupid they are. The forums can be useful at times and even fun sometimes, but people need to get a life and realize it's not what makes this site what it is! I'm so tired especially of all the dramatic forum posts recently from hubbers "threatening" to leave. Please! Either leave or don't - don't go to the forums looking for an ego boost, it's really immature.
I wouldn't normally say these things, except in my own head, but I guess I'm irritated this morning!
For all of you out there who make this site what it really is and contribute your help and support to people like me - THANK YOU!
HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!
Oh, man. I might puke... I really like Pam, though. I'm just shocked by "who's" joined in... Thanks for sharing, Misha... I think.
that is a perfect example of the power and energy of words if you go on to read the responses.
nothing but discontent, and yet look at all of the amazing writers here. it's all in perspective.
This is pretty nasty Misha Not you, but this post you have found. I don't get the criticism of HP from Pam or others. HP aims to "provide the best webpage on any given topic" - if we do that then there's no problem. Every publishing site has rules - I'd rather write here than at any other article venue. I'm disappointed to see this from Pam.
I know Misha, there are a lot of angry ex-hubbers and I think Pam is leading the pack. I spent a brief amount of time in another forum populated by them and couldn't handle the venom, so I cancelled my account.
One of the reasons that I've been so open about my success here is to counter that perception that you can't make good money here. Pam didn't make alot of money because by her own admissions on these forums she couldn't get her head around how to do it - and that she was too stubborn to go "commercial."
I started on the journey to try and make money from writing about a year ago. HubPages is by far my biggest earner to date (but nowhere near you Nelle!!). I'm still learning though, but I really enjoy being part of the community here. I'm aware of a lot of stuff that does go on, but I try to stay out of it cause there's no point arguing sometimes.
There's no secrets here. There are certainly enough hubs published that pretty much give away how to make money from writing on HubPages. The real challenge is just the discipline to keep going in the first few months as you build up a following and wait for all the hard work to pay off. I'm finding that after the first year, more and more milestones are reached much sooner. Just have to keep at it.
Geeze! I am a bit shocked. I followed Pam's writing on here and although she was honest about her earnings, I did not realise she thought it was a bad site, I thought that she wrote under her own name for pleasure, and always assumed she had commercial hubs under a different profile. Her hubs were not commercial in subject matter that I remember, more political and social comment stuff, funny and well written I thought..
Sad to see this.
Me too Earnest I am very sad, I loved her writing here.
I think you and earnest might want to listen to some of what I am saying please . Pam is entitled to her opinions, and she has a right to them. Once people keep making so many rude comments, well it just crosses the line, and not everyone will stay on a site when they feel unwelcome. People attacked Pam and Lita. Anyway, this is not my fight, but this thread is just as negative as those who say Pam and Lita are negative for not liking Hubpages.
...If Pam is entitled to her opinions... Doesn't that kind of mean that everyone else is too?
...It's kind of a two way street... No matter how Harsh you find the opinions.. It's still their right. Just like it is Pam's
I've tried to fight this fight before, SP. It never ends well.
hmmm..so, a negative equals a negative which equals....a negative?
How about you're writing negatively about the negatives talking about the negative...
it's just a simple thread, SweetPie.
I guess to you it is, but to me it is always so much drama and people saying so and so are not as good as others.
It is a lot of drama...that's for certain. I just ignore and move on.
I agree completely.. Something tantrum taught me ( thank you tantrum ) Is to not take the forums so seriously...
Sound advice...occasionally Tantrum throws a few good ones out there!
And SweetPie ~ hmm, I don't think Misha was trying to 'stir' a reaction. I think when he saw the post, he was shocked, and felt the need to express it.
But...let's just say you are right (and like you said you are entitled to your opinion). So what? Let's say this is a petty thread, from a 'highschool-like' mind, whose only intention was to get a reaction. Who cares? Then leave it at that...it’s a petty, crappy thread. Just let go, SweetPie...let it go and let the good times roll.
All I can say is this thread was started to get a reaction out of people, and not to make anyone feel happy. Well maybe the people who think Pam and Lita are horrible for their opinions are happy to dish about how they are negative, but those saying that are also expressing another form of negativity. I am disappointed people start threads like these, and this is so junior high really. They always will, but I am still entitled to my opinion on this.
Blimey, that's all a bit harsh, I might bitch about the place occasionally but all-in-all it's a great site.
Kind of funny when TK followed Lita there though, that bit did make me chuckle.
Same here. I thought it was really funny.
*(the trolls follow you everywhere you go, it doesn't matter)*
Well, Lita's posts out there about HP are not much better than Pam's - unlike TK's... Another proof that writing talent - that both of them no doubt have - does not necessarily coincide with nice personality. But at least Lita was banned - and Pam left all by herself, accompanied by community moaning...
And yeah Nelle, you are doing a great job helping people to start making some money here, it's a noble deed
Thank God for that, I was beginning to feel quite guilty about it.
Happy V-Day DM, have a great one.
Thanks You too!! It IS V day, after all....I really did laugh.
Same, although I was quite high at the time.
But it was something of an unexpected plot twist, even for the HubPages show.
I kinda saw it coming. I do wonder how everbody finds each other like that?
I actually just Googled MrVoodoo to see what came up, but there seems to be loads of MrVoodoo's so that should throw any potential stalkers off my scent.
hmmmmm, maybe I'll go see what I can dig up on you.
Let me know...Ive found other you's by accident before.
I'm quite jealous of some of these other me's, they seem to live far more exciting lives than I.
And most of the other you's seem to be French.
That is funny. Hopefully Im pretty awesome in French? Ive got to go get some housework done. Take care.
That made me chuckle, too. That's whay I was referring to in my first response... She just can't break away from that Samoyed!!!
No, not at all.
But reading it like that was, sorry if that's not proper, I do occasionally find things funny that may not be appropriate.
I wasn't laughing at the situation as a whole, just that tiny portion of it.
They remind me of an old married couple who only stay together because they'd miss the bitching if they got divorced.
No she really got angry when the first 100 Hubs in 30 Day Challenge started and she never recovered. Felt that people like me were polluting the writing character of the site. I was particularly senstive to it, because I had just started out on HP and didn't understand the politics and inuendo.
Nellie I just saw your little title under your profile pic "hubpages elite." You are such a steady worker, I am glad to see a bit of recognition.
Hubpages is a great site with fair and workable rules. I have no complaints here, every time I make a mistake or break the rules accidently hubpages have been courteous and more than helpful. The service here is excellent in my view.
Nelle, I am glad you were not so sensitive as to leave the site! I have really valued all your advice on making that sale
I have spent time and money (not my own tho, my mother in law usually buys this stuff for us) on make money scams. Go to a seminar with tickets ranging in the hundreds or even over a grand and spend 90% of the time being sold to (business in a box or reduced price tickets to the next 'guru's' seminar) and you can get a bit jaded . I was very impressed that this site did not actually claim to make money fast, or make lots of money or lots of money fast! Actually I was told it would take time and hard work so don't get my hopes up and just focus on writing, having fun and learning. That honesty was and is refreshing. I guess at the end of the day it takes all sorts and you just can't please all the people all the time
Another reason not to get so caught up in the "I'm leaving"and "please don't go" drama that happens frequently here. Internet personae can be misleading you know.
Take me for example, I seem like a nice guy, but only if you know me!
Hey Randy, the jury is still out on that one.
I'm with you, Ray! I've known Randy for 36 years, and I'm still trying to decide!
Unfortunately, my wife is a judge, Cags. I am not allowed a jury by her. Needless to say, I am found guilty frequently of being an A$$ O.
I think Pam would make a fine Helium steward, she has the right attitude!
I am happy here, I enjoy myself and get paid for it too!
All the stuff about things rising...
well, it's the s__t that always floats to the top
Well I reckon Randy is a bit sus, he and I get on like brothers! Ya gotta worry doncha?
It's a shame that people get so judgemental and bitter. My view is that HP has room for any kind of writer. I like to mix and match - some hubs are commercial, some hubs simply for the pleasure of writing. It's all good as far as I'm concerned.
I agree and I've been trying to visit the more non-commercial hubs and rate them up, so they'll get a boost. I know that alot of those writers are here trying to find more freelance jobs as well. We really can all help each other.
Absolutely! We really can help each other. I've learnt loads from you, others have learnt from me - I'm starting to hire other HP writers for freelance work. Like I said on my post at the blog Misha brought up, I have my own specific aims. HP will help make that happen - I have no doubt about it at all!
From the choices we have of online publishing venues, HP is definitely the best!
So getting back to Pam's beef with HP. I don't get it. When did HP ever censor her? Is her beef that her non-commercial hubs didn't make money?
Are there indeed sites that pay you to just write articles? If that's an obvious question I'm sorry. That's not part of the online world that I have much experience with.
From what I understand yes. Initially she was making fairly good money on her hubs, which were mostly political, social commentary, and other non commercial topics. Then her earnings plummeted and she didn't want to go the commercial route. I understand that choice, but I don't understand the bitterness.
I still enjoy her writing, and I guess we can all get pissed off with something after a while (familiarity breeds contempt), but there's no need for this kind of BS.
nelle, sunforged has a great hub about this, and yes there are sites that pay you for writing articles. here is a link to his hub.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Writers-Wanted- … s-Business
as far as helping each other, look how we all helped cosette decide to stay.
My impression was that the atmosphere in the forums eventually poisoned her feelings toward the site as well. Forums are always going to have trolls and other obnoxiousness, but there have been some exceptionally obnoxious ones hanging around in the last year or so and Pam and Lita were both visible and opinionated enough to be targeted by them, frequently, and you could see it getting to them over time. Not that Lita in particular didn't give as good as she got, but I didn't think the moderators did a great job of handling the situation either. One troll in particular should have been banned months before he actually was.
You can say, spend less time in the forums if it's bothering you so much, but why should legitimate and productive members of the community be exiled from a part of the community that they (at one point anyway) enjoyed, while trolls whose entire purpose is to be disruptive be allowed to have free rein?
Wow is about all I can say. I wasn't surprised at most of the bitter comments, but Pam's took me back quite a bit, she was quite helpful to me in my earlier days here and I do enjoy her writing.
So who is TK now, if he was really banned, wouldn't his IP be banned also - ????
Wonder who the guy is who started that website? At least early on in the comments Maddie tried!!
Tk is now Sab Oh.
I don't agree with everything Lita and Pam say, but they do have the right to say it.
really? I wondered ... don't you feel sometimes that you're communicating with someone you 'know' ??? some of these that have joined in the last few weeks?
Just a question - if Tk was permanently banned, I thought that meant he couldn't come back as a sock puppet? Or is he just banned from the forums?
I enjoy my time here and I enjoy the people. The HubPages Staff have been excellent. They have done a pretty good job considering what goes into the complexity of their work.
I mean, they actually do listen to the community and have the community, as a whole, built easy to use writing platform for anyone, who wants to write and/or make money.
Am I earning from it. Yes, I am. But, what I enjoy most is the compassion most have for other people. It's seen from many different perspectives.
BeautyBabe, SirDent, Jane@CM and Lyricsingray can all attest to the compassion. Threads opened asking for prayers, and even atheists are passing along wishful thoughts.
There is nothing wrong with HubPages. It's excellent in my book.
Most sites are exactly what you choose to make of them. None are perfect but HP surely isn't the worst.
It is sad to see such bitterness.
I have loved the chance to learn here. I love how I have been able to experiment with all types of writing and that others are willing to share what they know. The 'secrets' for success are not hidden form those seeking to find out.
Everybody is entitled to his or her Opinion. I have always liked Pams writings and her as a person. But if she feels cheated by HubPages then she has the right to express it. So far i have not found a reason to dislike HubPages. This site has given me good exposure to my articles and i am thankful for it.
Well, given that this IS the Internet, I really don't see Pam's post as being anything more than frustration. Hardly anything to put her "nice person" status in jeopardy.
Frustrated person, sure. Angry person, yeah, that too. But hardly decimating to character.
I don't think anybody means to suggest that she isn't a 'nice person' it was just a bit of a shocker to read out of the blue.
Like hearing a good friend talk shit about you when they don't know you're listening, it doesn't really mean anything, but still stings a little.
I suppose. But half the fun of Pam's hubs was how emotional she got in them. Hard to imagine her having an opinion on anything that didn't wax one way or another on the emotional scales. (Can you even wax on a scale?)
When you use your real name, you leave an impression. And the one she's leaving now - isn't very professional. If she was on my site - I would be wondering when is she going to trash me. And she's trying to make a living writing online.
I don't hold with the attitude - this is the interent and so what. Why do rules of civility and decorum lapse, because we're speaking to many people instead of one.
One of the reasons that I use my real name, is that it makes me think twice, before I write something.
This reminds me of mandybeau, going to Squidoo and posting horrible things about HP. Then she came back. Is she still here. I know that there was a 30-day ban. But I've lost track.
Lita and Pam have expressed their opinions and they did not have good experiences here. The Internet is a free space, and if they have concerns, maybe Hubpages should consider certain things that happened that resulted in these comments. I know people never like to admit when others feel slighted, but there have been opportunities when that happens. Pam and Lita are nothing but nice people, and anyone trying to tarnish someone's character, and imply otherwise- well too much time on your hands. They are away now and not commenting on the site anyway, so why does it bother you if they have a different opinion of Hubpages than you?
see, they didn't restrict their comments to just Hubpages. they made everyone who writes here look bad.
many who supported them, even.
when i first came here, i waited a month to write my first hub. i wanted to Google Hubpages first and see what people thought about it. i was asked before Hubpages to write for examiner and even joined up to be their local rabbit examiner but after reading bad press about them, i decided to give Hubpages a try instead.
i can maybe understand Lita since she was banned and, in her mind, stalked, but Pam? not really. she left of her own free will yet now she has popped up, talking trash about this site and the writers who write on it.
Once again I would say they are not inditing Hubpages as a whole, and they had bad experiences. I do not buy into the us vs. them type of thinking, and why would anyone take someone's opinion about Hubpages as a personal insult? I like Pam and Lita, and I do not like threads to state so and so is not nice. This thread is still mean spirited in my book, and I stand by this. I may not be popular for all my views, but oh well.
Well, I certainly did not email her and I'm sure she has better things to do and worry about than what is said on the HP forum.
Well I've done my share of trashing Helium but they still make money on me and others they have banned. Many on the site did not believe me when I told the truth about Helium until later on.
So I will keep an open mind until I see differently. At least a member can keep their work here if they quit or get banned.
A large ego is hard to see around sometimes, or so they tell me!
I have started writing at Helium again just to get the $2.56 I need to earn to cash out and get away. I don't want to throw $22.44 away. They have how-tos now that earn you money on views so hopefully that will help.
Just an opinion:
I really thought Pam was one of the best ever writers on HP, and I know she was going through some tough times. I didn't agree with some of her opinions, but I loved the way she expressed them with humor and passion. I wish her well.
Sorry to see HP trashed by a string of comments from various sources, but stuff happens. People will have to judge for themselves.
I am skeptical about all of the Pgrundy LitaSorensen and TKSensei stuff - How would TK know where to find Lita over there? I googled Lita Sorensen and there was no mention of Reverb Studios - it all seems kinda strange, kinda strange - and should I really care ? NOPE!
I found her there very easily in about 10 seconds.
You know what? I don't make anything from writing on here. I think I've made three dollars altogether. I don't care either. That's not why I started writing for HubPages. I write because I love to write. Moreso, I love to read what others think about my writing, and most are honest and respectful. If she's angry because she didn't make any money, why did she stay for 2 years? Why put down a site that you stayed at for 2 years? It doesn't make any sense. Whatever though. To each his own I suppose.
I don't think anyone is ever upset or angry at what they think or say they are upset about. it goes deeper, and yet it's human nature to blame something or someone for our problems or unhappiness. it's much easier that way.
I have posted a rather long two cents on there in defence of Hubpages. Think it needs a slightly fairer view, rather than it's current tirade of abuse from people who were obviously breaking the rules.
Here is the thing, both Lita and Pam have left Hubpages and were not happy. They have a 100% right to feel that way, and we all have things we do not like. I happen to have lots of uncharitable feelings about Tea Party rallies and Rush Lumbaugh, and that is my right too. Unless you are in that person's shoes you have no right to judge why he or she may have written what they did. I have read things that may not agree with, but I also know the people that are my friends. Lita and Pam have always respected me when I share my opinion, and I do not always agree with them either, but they respect others opinions. I can state that on this forum and even other forums people have never respected me, and have actually made me feel bad. I no longer feel bad as I realize some people will just never try to make everyone feel welcome, and that is reality. If anyone disagrees with what Pam and Lita have to say about Hubpages on that site, then why do you not go post your own opinions there? The one comment that I find sick on there is tksensei, and making light of him is pretty odd. I simply deleted all his comments on my hubs, and he left like twenty-five one night.
Just google her name and run down the list. There plain as day.
that's what I did - did not see a list of her post in that Pedantic Hubpages thing - will try again - even tho I know this is a pointless endeavor!
I don't much care who goes or stays (other than me)...but was slightly curious about the "the site is in decline" remark.
So I did my favorite thing when checking out a site: Pulled HP up on QuantCast. They have "us" showing currently as the 89th largest site on the entire Internet with 20.8 million global viewers per month (about half that many in the U.S.). Which would seem to indicate the "in decline" part is probably a slight exaggeration...
QuantCast also provided a 5-month graph which showed a slightly irregular but overall upward trend.
Also did the same for ReverbStudios. QuantCast was able to figure out it exists but couldn't dredge up enough date to give any activity figures. Presume that means their best days are still ahead of them....
Another thing that was pretty impressive was the fact that Maggie Ruud found time to post in response to the anti-HP rant. Do you happen to be an insomniac, Maggie? I surely don't see when you'd find time for a whole lot of sleep!
Ah! And, last but hardly least: Misha, thanks for keeping us up to date!
Nah, I searched for hubpages scam lita sorensen. Remember my thread a few days ago about keywords people use to get to your profile? So I got curious what exactly Lita was saying... I sort of expected that kind of stuff from Lita cause she were banned, but Pam was a big surprise - hence the thread.
it is kind of funny when you think about it... here we are in cyber space wondering about people we don't even know!! I like Pam and Lita and hope things work out for them. if TK is banned and now here as scream face... no reply..
oh well, I'm off. everybody enjoy valentine's day who celebrates it!
gee I don't really wanna spend any more time on this! its futile! I get the main message here - be careful! and I plan on doing just that. later dudes . . .
First, off Pam was pretty upfront about what she thought when leaving. What I cannot figure out is why some people are trying their darnest to vilify Pam and Lita, when they declared "air was so much cleaner now they were gone". Those are not my words by the way. Some people seem pretty darn obsessed with Lita and Pam. All I am saying.
ENVY is the word.
what makes the world go round !
Actually no I am not lying. She wrote hubs and comments about her opinions regarding Hubpages when she left. You said life was better without Lita, and as I see once again trying to tarnish my character too. I do not lie, and I do not care what Misha says either. I find you particularly mean towards me and certain other people you do not like. That is about it.
Yes, I said this about Lita. Yet I never said that about Pam, and here you were lying
No I was not lying as you said flat out Pam has mental issues even though she is a brilliant writer. You have reiterated several times how you did not miss either, and how the site was better without both of them. See I tell the truth, and I am a great person as well, despite how Misha thinks I am so inferior in so many ways. Misha makes a lot of judgemental calls about people he does not like, and seriously it is so stale.
Yeah, surely you are a great person, and highly intelligent. Yet I never said that air here is cleaner without Pam.
Actually I am a great person and intelligent. I know you like to declare lots of people are not up to "your standards," but why are you always going around tearing people down. There are certain people that you single out, and it is the same bully tactics I encountered in junior high. As an adult I do not cower away when people are rude, but I find this entire thread rude. Why can people just say I do not agree with Lita and Pam because, not make them out to be horrible people. Seriously Misha, I do find a lot of your behavior mean spirited, truly.
I still believe you owe Pam an apology for saying people like her will end up in concentration camps for their opinions. Do you ever stop to think maybe some of your behavior and sticking up for the antics of people like TK might hurt others. I know you will never think about anything I say because I am just old SP, and you think I am foolish, but maybe, just maybe, you could try and not make an example of those that do not meet your criteria all the time.
Another lie of you. Please link to the place where I said those exactly words you say I said.
That is not a lie at all. I do not have to link to it, and even the other day you admitted it. Anyway, I have no reason to lie, those of us who know what is written saw it.
Now this is libel. Either provide the link to exactly the words you quoted, or apologize.
No I am not libeling, and you owe apologies to me for all the year of rudeness you have given me. Anyway, here is the link, and I think you are out of line.
Where is the link to my words? That's what Pam said.
Look at your response below Misha. It is on the same page, and you explained to her how you thought her views were not so great.
Nah Sweetie, read the explanation again, your intelligence may help you to understand.
And btw, as hard as I tried, I could not find a link to my original words - that actually implied that we both would be in concentration camp, not she alone.
Like here http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/13988?page=4#post190398
You know saying that people who are proponents of the type of political views Pam has leading to concentration camps. I see that on your post. I still think it is weird to even bring up that word in a discussion, hitting below the belt really.
Not to even attempt to speak for Misha - but if you grew up where Misha did, you might have a very different view of life and use different examples of what is possible.
Have you ever traveled to Russia, China, East Germany prior to the Berlin Wall coming down? (yes, I did - if you're wondering.)
No one should bring up those terms in conversations, and for everyone's fyi Pam was married to a man that grew up under Communism. I have also know people that lived through concentration camps, and stating that our political views could lead to these is just not kosher for me. Anyway, I rest my case, and I see some will not get what I am talking about.
SweetiePie, if we stop talking about them - then it is dangerous. It is curious that you defend the rights of Pam and Lita to speak - but not Misha. You worry about us hurting Pam and Lita's feelings. But don't worry about Pam and Lita hurting ours. It cuts both ways. Yes we are being negative, but Pam and Lita share some of that as well.
And BTW I do not mean to imply all people who grew up in totalitarian countries feel the same way. It just has to have an impact. Just like growing up like I did in a very liberal environment has affected the way I view issues.
Misha is never going to be silenced, but he goes out of his way to let liberal Americans or anyone else he does not agree with that he thinks they are out of it of cuckoo. By the way, there have been liberal Americans for years, and I can assure Misha our views are not going to land us in concentration camps. That is one good thing about living in western democracies, and even though we may hate each others politics, people do come to live in Western Europe, America, and Australia to get away from the oppression they seek elsewhere. You know of Ralph Nader? I happen to like him a lot and even agree with much of what he says. I also happen to be an descendant of Syrian-Lebanese grandparents, and he is too. There have been liberal Americans for years, and Misha is just going to have to live with it, and not imply people are lesser because they do not buy into his world views. Misha and several others went out of their way to make people not feel welcome on the political forum. He delights in telling people how not enlightened their opinions are. By the way, some of us are liberal for a reason, and we are not all conservatives.
Reported as personal attack
And we'll talk about concentration camps in a few years, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
You know what nothing I said to you was a personal attack, but your thread is. I reported your thread too . Everything you have said tonight is an attack, and there is no denying it. So you are allowed to share about your world views, but mine are an attack now. That is not true, and I have every right to express what I believe. Opening threads in the past about me was also attacking me by the way.
But these views DID lead to a concentration camp - can assure Misha our views are not going to land us in concentration camps. That is one good thing about living in western democracies You cannot conveniently forget about the disgrace of Guantanemo before it is even closed down properly.
That started with Bush and is a disgrace. I am not going to go into the depths of 9/11 aftermath, but unlike others I have more belief in my country. I am so ethnically mixed though, and I think that is why. My ancestors come from several different continents, and they all wanted to be here because they knew they would have a better life. I work for the positive every day in my life, and voting and participating in government is how we can make our voices heard.
Absolutely right - but it must also be ok to discuss and argue these things on here, argument itself is positive. I may even go over and look at what you wrote so that I can argue with you later
Okay I know people are really upset about 9/11 aftermath, but I see people using this event to become more negative, and not looking for better solutions. Like the Tea Party movement, I see that as an outgrowth of negativity and the like, but some people find it inspirational and the like.
I know a fair bit about your beliefs after all this time reading your articles and posts. We seem to share a lot of humanitarian views and so I like your lean on politics. As an outsider it is hard to fathom all this them and us thinking in America, and I know you have always remained with the humanitarian side no matter which party is offering it.
You are usually early to kybosh stupid conspiracies, hate directed at political leaders, and your version of what goes on in America matches what I get from 3 of the better quality world-wide radio stations from BBC Germany, England and Australia. Like your TV news ours are sound bites, often totally wrong or deliberate lies, whoever gets the bite wins the night, if you will pardon that rhyming.
SweetiePie, I do not think you are perfect but I love who you are.
I do not expect anyone to think I am perfect. I am tired of CNN at this point because now they are playing "balanced news" and reiterating what Fox says. Some of the commentators are better than others, but there is this whole new drama mama about how we are going to hell in a hand basket because we have a "socialist president," who is actually quite moderate in most of his policies. A few days I only skim the news and that is it because it is getting so ridiculous. My friends and I actually prefer reading the BBC website, and they actually have many good journalists on assignment here. My friend was reading the BBC website at work today actually .
I do not think politics has a whole lot to do with why Pam and Lita left. And I am certainly not a conservative. Honestly, I don't recall ever reading anything by either of the two ladies, but I did talk to them in some of the forums. No problem with either of them that I remember.
I'm sure they are fine writers and it's good of you to stand by them as you apparently know them better than we do. But as far as I know, you could be either one of them. I don't think so, but you see what I'm getting at?
Do you think Lita and Pam cared what folks here thought about the comments they made on the other site? Are either of them dumb enough to believe their statements would not be seen by us?
Actually why I enjoy talking with Pam and Lita is because they enjoy politics, and a big part of why they left is because of the trolling over their views. Also, I think Pam was tired of the commercial hubbing and the like. I personally do not care if people want to write a commercial hub about five different types of clickbank ads or pay day loans, but when you think about it she does have a point about how those type of hubs are not the best quality. That is not even elitist, it is just a fact. I think there are lots of great hubs here, but if people stop and read Pam's comments they will see she wants to move on to write for profit by publishing actual magazine articles and books. Hubpages is a good way to get started on the web, but eventually people want to move on and make more money for their writing. I can assure you they have no problems with you reading their comments. The only comment that bodes unwell with me is tk, and how did he know to follow Lita there. Pretty, pretty junior high!
Well I, for one, am glad the other site was posted. I have been "dogged out," as we call it down here, on forums and it isn't too pleasant.
But I knew the "doggers" didn't know any better because the PTB on the site were encouraging it with false information. It did make other members start to notice the things I had pointed out and ask questions on their own. So I did make a difference after all.
I do not want you angry with me because good people stood up for me and I'll always remember that. Lita and Pam are probably better at bitching than I am, but it does take practice and I'm learning all of the time.
This is exactly the point - it is not only ok to point out, or give an opinion, where political views may take us - it is our responsibility. I have also know people that lived through concentration camps, and stating that our political views could lead to these is just not kosher for me.
You missed out Guantanemo; maybe the best recent illustration of where these strings of political thinking can take us.
But I do agree with the issue you highlight - objecting to a post is not the same as being rude. Since I recently arrived I have seen these spats develop and go on and on - sometimes it is an over-zealous slightly out of line comment but more often it is someone with extreme views using an imagined insult to fight back.
Free speech et al - it can be kinda amusing to watch until it descends into nasty personal attacks, usually a little gang. It is good to see others like yourself standing up and trying to moderate with little reason. As someone said, 'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it'.
Not sure I am intelligent enough to understand what you wrote. Could you re-phrase the part of what you understood, so I can understand, too?
And no, it is not weird or below the belt. As Nelle mentioned it was an everyday reality where I lived. And have good chances of becoming reality where you live.
I definitely do get it, Misha. So many feel "It can't happen here", as you (and I) well know...and which is precisely the mindset needed for it TO happen. Please do keep on keepin' on; your posts have value.
Additionally, when I first saw this thread and then checked out the link, I did NOT feel you were taking shots at either Lita or Pam in any way...simply that you were sharing information about how you'd discovered THEY felt.
And finally, any thread that introduces us to a fresh cupcake design (and Ron's is definitely fresh!) is to be applauded...
It's not that it can't happen here; of course it could happen anywhere. It's just that it's kind of silly to speak of things like a more equitable healthcare system and a bit of oversight being applied to the financial mischief-makers as signs of the coming enslavement of all Americans.
The sky really isn't falling, we're just having a hiccup in the weather this year.
Maybe the teabags could be put to use in making a warm, soothing beverage instead of a futile, misguided political display.
By the way, you are harassing me because I was saying we all know what was said etc, and you are so rude. Opening this thread and all. Pam is a nice person, I can assure you. She does not like Hubpages because guess what, people opened threads like this!
SweetiePie, I've just skimmed this thread, but I didn't pick up any trend to "villify" Pam. She was such a popular, helpful and excellent writer, I feel people are responding with shock and surprise at (what we perceive as) an unjustified attack on HubPages.
I understand her frustration at the drop in the quality of writing online, but that applies everywhere - and possibly less on HubPages than on most other revenue-sharing sites.
Well this thread was started to vilify her because it states, and you thought Pam was nice, and read this... Anyway, there have been many comments made about people that state Pam is messed up, a hubber that incited violence against her because he did not like her political views, and other ridiculous rants. I think it is all rude and some really have it out for her and Lita, too. It is vilifying her and whereas you may not agree with her opinions, it is when people open thread like these that the problems starts. I choose my words very carefully, and speak my mind so.
As a new member of Hubpages, I am really puzzled by why you would want to post this. Reading the opinions of people who didn't have a good experience here only puts doubts in my mind about this site, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same effect on other new members. I don't understand what your intent is, but I have a hard time seeing how this benefits anyone here.
If you disagree with their criticisms of Hubpages, then why did you bring it here for everyone to see?
Would rather it was covered up? I feel it's good to know what the dissenters are saying rather than wondering. I had people apologize to me later for things they thought I was making up on Helium.
Better the devil, er, serpent you know than.....
First as Randy said.
Second, she is really a brilliant writer, and she was very highly respected in our community. So this comment of her caused sort of shock - hence the need to share this with the community.
Okay, explanation accepted, even if it doesn't make sense to me personally.
Or tear her apart ?
Lately I see a lot of this kind of posts.
Hidden behind subtlety, letal weapons !
And they have been aimed at me as well.Thing I find hilarious!
People waisting their time trying to hurt me ! Well they are wasting their time ! Absolutely silly behaviour !
This is a joke ,right ?
Obviously you're putting her in evidence. You don't like her at all !
don't be cynic !
Drama? Here on the internet where anyone can be someone, and someone can be anyone else, the good guys, the bad guys, people who despise the forums but can't keep from reading them, all these different factors and you are surprised?
You are a Sweetie Pie, but methinks you are being a bit dramatic yourself. And like everyone else, you are stating your opinion. Of course my opinion is better. But that's just my opinion
I am not acting dramatic, just standing up for what is right and explaining why some are turned off by threads such as these. Honestly, I am glad I stood up to share. You can think whatever you like about me, but I do not feel dramatic on this one at all .
Let them be, we have freedom of speech and they are entitled to their opinions. If you don't like what they say, then don't read it.
Yes Misha has agreed he in part started this thread to get us going. And he succeeded in cranking up some of us, me included - but now thanks to him and Tantrum I am wiser in the ways of life on the internet.
As for the negativity. It was theirs, before Misha started this thread. And the mirror has been held up.
You people should step away from your keyboards once in awhile and get some exercise.
You're in big trouble mister. We've been forbidden to use that name in forums. You'll be banned for life and have to join the exiles on the isle of whiners.
Oh, wait, Were not just randomly posting names of women? My bad...
Okay, Ron, you know I have a crush on you right? But if I see this picture one more time, it might cause my love to slip just a teeny tiny bit.
actually, we're not supposed to start threads posting links...?
goodnight forum people.
Sweetie Pie, I feel you may owe BP and me an apology, neither of us said anything other than that we liked her writing and were saddened she is not writing here any more in BP's case, and I simply meant I had no idea that she disliked hubpages and was shocked to see her blog post. How did you find offence in that? Maybe it's the Australian accent?
Sorry earnest, but I was a bit disappointed both of and blond poet said what you said about Pam. I am not going to apologize, and if you think less of me, so be it. Perhaps people should have listened to some of what happened to some of us, but I think everyone has already made up their minds. I am the divergent one here, and okay with that. You do not have to like me anymore earnest. That is your choice.
Is it possible that someone else is using her name to post such things about HP?
Any one familiar with her writing and ranting style could have done it.
There might be some people who were not a big fan of Pam and might want others to hate her. Just a thought.
Hang on SweeyiePie! I don't fall out with friends over stuff like this. What did I say about Pam? What did BP say about Pam?
I may be blind to it, please point it out, and if I am wrong I will apologise to both you and Pam.
Pam and Lita were followed and harassed to the point that they are no longer on this site. I know you find some of their opinions about Hubpages negative, but I think if you could talk to Lita or Pam about this you might see where they are coming from. You do not have too, I just am not particularly fond of threads that begin with..You think Pam is not nice and so and so. I am not even upset with you earnest, I am just really disappointed about this thread poking fun at Pam and Lita, who in my mind are entitled to their opinions.
The thread title was a bit of a magnet for me, having been a fan of Pam's since she or I came here to hubpages ( don't recall, she may have been here longer than me as you have).
I also followed Lita, read her hubs and have had many discussions with her on the forums, where although we never agreed on everything I found her to be an honest broker and a straight shooter.
I also know that she was being annoyed (more than the rest of us even) by TK, but always felt she gave as good or better than she got.I also noticed she was followed there, and find that a bit crazy of TK!
I know they are both entitled to a view of hubpages and their own opinions, but I am surprised that Pam or Lita were so harassed as to leave. I knew nothing of Pam being harassed that I recall, so obviously you know more than I do about it. Sorry to upset you SweetiePie, I think you are fab!
I just wanted to present the other side of things because this thread is as one sided as some think the posts Lita and Pam made. Earnest I think you are cool too, that is why I was just sharing what I thought with you and Blond Poet because I know both of you have talked to Lita and Pam:). I just wanted to let you know they have reasons for those posts. I am glad you like Hubpages, and Pam and Lita have said many times that even though they no longer like being there, they are happy for those who are still enjoying the site.
I only said I was sad. I never knew she had left for a start. I liked Pam very much.
Finally! I was just going to ask where are you muffins
At least it is not boring here tonight LOL
Reminds me of the Goth snowman cookies my teenagers made for Christmas. Strangely compelling.
I am pleased to see the new range of available cupcakes Ron.
I refuse to eat anything with a face, especially when it is still blinking!
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