Should people with no hubs be allowed in the general forums?

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Pcunixposted 14 years ago
I think not.

The Help Forum, and Official HubPages Announcements should be open to them until they create at least one hub, at which time Extreme Makeover, Report a Problem or Suggest a New Feature and Suggest Report a Problem or Suggest a New Feature might open.

After 5, open 30 Hubs in 30 Days HubChallengers. After 10, open the rest.

Possibly consider closing down access again after some period of no new hubs, six months, a year, something.

I think it would eliminate a lot of garbage, a few sock puppets, and make HP a better place. Probably the same thing should be done with Questions.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Quantity over quality will make HP a better place?
  
  Perhaps, one well written hub is more worthy than a handful of word salads.
  
  Just sayin'
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then allow an exception for views. If you have only 1 hub but it has X thousand unique page views, count them in.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't presume the amount of page views has anything to do with the quality of work, either.
  
  An article will stand on its own merit, notwithstanding.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If a tree falls in the forest, but no one hears, did it still make sufficient noise?
  
  Look, I understand: you have one hub and from the looks of it, it probably hasn't seen wide circulation. And you are not a pest in the forums - the religious folks might disagree, but I think you are OK - well, not on that gravity business, but generally :-)
  
  So you would have to write a few more hubs. Would it be THAT difficult?
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  sidpoudyalposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not agree Pcunix. I am definitely behind Beelzedad on this one, no not just because I am new here. Yeah, Beelzedad has one hub but check him out. That one hub has a hub score of 73 and he has a hubrank of 79. From reading around the forums and viewing established hubs I have learned that to hit a hubrank of 75, a desired threshold for many, hubbers generally write 10 or more hubs. To surpass 75 with just one hub is quite a unique feat in my opinion.
  
  Keep in mind that not everyone is here to make money, although must of us are, some members may just be passionate about a topic and wish to have some space on the internet where they can express to the world their passion without having to go through the hassle of getting domain names and setting up hosting.
  
  Although I understand that you wish to filter out unwanted members, holding so much back from every new member will only turn away those that could have brought something really creative and unique to the community.
  
  As Beelzedad mentioned, setting a limit of published hubs will only increase the number of low quality hubs and spam. Also, page views is EASILY manipulated for anyone with any programming knowledge, something that all spammers seem to have a ton of.
  
  You want more from and for the community but these two options don't cut it. That is absolutely fine but picking on Beelzedad or his hub is just wrong!
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  harleymeighanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Although it would be hard to implement. There would be a need for more reviewers of hubs to make sure posted hubs are of high quality.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I like the freedom and sense of equality that HP provides. Making someone earn the right to be a hubber would be wrong. This is an open and friendly site right now. Unless control oriented individuals try and impose their thoughts and beliefs upon others.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This does NOT say anything about earning the right to be a hubber. It is earning the right to post in the forums.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This forum is part of the site.
  
  If your rule was in effect I would have probably not worked on my hubs here at all.
  
  When I signed up, I would write a little on my hubs and then come back to the forums. If I did not realize the sense of community that Hubpages has very efficiently created, I for one would not have made a home here.
  
  How do you know the guy with 0 hubs is not working on several hubs. Maybe they bounce into the forums to ask a question regarding the content of their hubs.
  
  I know I did.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And that is why the Help forum, etc. would be open to them as I said.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not talking about questions concerning hubs.
  
  I am talking about questions concerning content.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did you read what I said? Extrene Makeover would open at the first hub.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did YOU read what I said?
  
  A hubber may want to open a thread to get opinions on their very first hub!
  
  Ex. What would you do if you were treated rudely by a convenience store worker? Forum Thread
  
  Hub: Customer service what you should expect.
  
  The forum is an awesome tool for research?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, the Help forum would be open upon joining. Extreme Makeover and Report a Problem at first hub.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Why not just incorporate a different sign up system all together.
  
  "Hubpages is accepting applications for new members."
  
  Instead of "Publish easily, Attract readers, & Earn rewards"
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  saleheensblogposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you have a point but i still like the freedom the hubbeers get in the forum.But the question section should be revised.I am sick of people asking stupid and fruitless questions.
  At least one hub to enter forum is not a bad idea.
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  Elpasoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  someone from hubpages invited people on facebook to come here and participate in a discussion about a certain topic. Hubpages gave me the impression you had to sign up and write a hub to join the discussion we were INVITED to participate in. This tread seems to be very underhanded and cowardly. You make it seem like people intruded on your closed little society. Why not confront people directly?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who from HubPages invited you? And which discussion?
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  Elpasoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  try to focus on the question at hand, who belongs on hubpages and who doesn't? Trying to silence somebody with better arguments than you is underhanded and cowardly. Do you have a response to this comment or the actual topic of this discussion?
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  Aficionadaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Randy Godwin's questions relate to the comment in your previous post, i.e. that someone from HubPages invited a Facebook group to HP for a discussion. RG was asking for details about what you said for clarification, not necessarily as a challenge (although I shouldn't try to speak for someone else - that's just the way I understood his questions).
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  Elpasoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  FACEBOOK GROUP?
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  Aficionadaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  My interpretation of Randy's post would have been clearer if I had said "a group of people from Facebook" (group in the sense of being numerous, not in the sense of being a clique or a specific set of individuals), rather than "FACEBOOK GROUP" without caps. But it would be unfortunate if that wording shifted your attention in the wrong direction.
  
  You yourself brought up the subject of Facebook people being invited to HubPages "to come here and participate in a discussion about a certain topic." You made an interesting statement, people in the forum were interested in it, and they/we were and are interested in learning more about what you meant.
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  Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am aware that there are people without hubs who have valid reasons for being in the forums. Which is my reason for being apprehensive about supporting the OP's suggestion.
  
  This said, words like "underhanded" and "cowardly" seem a little strong in view of the continuous debate on how to keep bad content off the site. The OP's suggestion is nothing new, far from it, so please don't shoot the messenger.
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  Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK, so let's address those concerns one by one.
  
  When signing up, HubPages encourages people to write a hub immediately, but there is no requirement to do so. Forum access is instant.
  
  As for confronting people directly, it seems that you do not quite understand. Over the past few days, an underage girl has been posting multiple threads in the help forum from multiple accounts. Each time her account is shut down, she opens up another one. Other hubbers, myself included, have literally spent hours trying to flag these accounts and get them shut down. The threads are spamming the help forum. She has no hubs, of course.
  
  How do you "confront" a person like that? How do you confront the commercial spammers, which are a major problem? Don't you care about the site?
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  Sally's Troveposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Others Hubbers here have had a lot of input about parameters for inclusion or exclusion based on a Hubber's Hub output. Those are suggestions HP staff, I think, ought to consider.
  
  Over all, I agree that some kind of bar should be set and reached before someone can fully participate in this site. Setting some participation criteria would be an interesting way to exercise game dynamics (continuing to build that game layer) and also maybe reduce some of the flaming, trolling button-pushing that leads to hostility...or frustration...in the forums. That would be an exercise in "good" gaming layer construction.
  
  Everybody needs a carrot to go for.
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  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I think people should come to realize that this is a VIRTUAL WORLD lo, this is not real, people are you listening, I might not be person I might be a robot, you might be an alien... Not real Life for fun .
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habeeposted 14 years ago
I love free speech, but I don't like it when people who are "hubbers" in name only come here just to start trouble. Heck, we "real hubbers" argue enough among ourselves! lol
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you "real"?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  She writes real hubs. So do you. So do I. Do the call girls and the drunks?
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  habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Real" in the sense that I actually write hubs, read others' hubs, comment on others' hubs, and I'm not a sock puppet. I have only one identity here.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, "real" to you is one who does what you do, and if they don't, their comments and ideas aren't worthy?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you LIKE call girls, children, drunks and sock puppets? You think they add to the HP experience in a positive way?
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why would I? Asking people what they think is not implying anything. It's just asking.
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  habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right. They also have to say 10 Hail Marys, spit on their keyboard twice, and wear a leprechaun suit and a multi-colored wig while they write their first 25 hubs. See? Pcunix still has his on!
  
  You know what I meant! You're just trying to get a rise out of me. Sorry it didn't work. I save all my anger for Randy Godwin, Ernest, Pcunix, Ron Montgomery, and Doug Hughes. lol
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm not trying to get a "rise out of you". I'm asking a serious question. I'm new here, and it seems that there's a "real hubber" vs "not real hubber" dichotomy of some kind. And it's big enough that people want to change how the place works, so as to change who can and can't express themselves.
  
  As an internet and pre-internet forum dweller, I know that there are a LOT of people who have great minds and thoughts, and yet, will NEVER publish anything, as in, create an article or commentary spontaneously. It is outside of their personality, it is far beyond their comfort zone. Yeah, I know spammers are a pain. And the porn posts are far too common to ignore, but your mechanism is pointed to alienate a whole class of people's personalities from participating. I don't think it wise. Nor well considered. AT least, it is not an equitable means of separating the good from the bad. I'm not accusing you of bad thinking or motives... Merely pointing out the process you advocate - and the mechanism you're promoting to establish the good from the bad ( you're calling it real vs not ) isn't really going to achieve what you're after.
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  Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  HubPages is an article publication platform. It is called "HubPages" for a reason. Thus the distinction between "real hubbers" and others. Demanding publication of at least a few hubs as a precondition for forum privileges should come as no surprise to anyone, it would be entirely logic and rational.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, Hubpages is a ad publishing site, using ordinary people to generate content and hopefully, enough advertising to pay back, and then profit, to the creators / operators.
  
  Selling it as some kind of publication platform is quite, well, imaginative. It doesn't fool me, though. The business model is obvious.
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  Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The same can be said for any article directory. Forum access is a privilege for active writers, not something to be taken for granted.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If the forum is a privelege for writers, then say so. It's not in your rules, and when you sign up, access is immediate. Now suddenly saying it's a "privelege" is quite disengenuous.
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  Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I was obviously talking about article directories and article sites in general. As we both know, the forum on HubPages is open to any registered member at present, and I have no problem with that personally. Were the rules to change as proposed by the OP, however, no one should be too surprised in view of what HubPages is primarily about.
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  habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Truths, we're not talking about people like you. You have real hubs - I've read a couple of them. You obviously joined HP to write and to interact with other writers.
  
  Since you asked me what I think a real hubber is, I'll tell you. Well, actually, it's easier for me to say what a real hubber isn't: Someone who joins HP with no intention of writing and is trying to promote another agenda here. From my own experience, I've had many emails from men in Ghana looking for a relationship with an American. I also get comments on my hubs that are nothing more than links - totally unrelated to my hub - to the commenter's website. Spammers do the same thing here on the forums. And then there are the trolls who drop in long enough to create anger. These are the kinds of things with which some of us are concerned.
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  Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is a place for writers. Hubpages would still be a great place if they got rid of the forums. In my opinion, if you are not writing hubs you are not contributing much to the community. You also are not making hubpages a dime and they aren't a public service agency. There are plenty of other forums out there. I don't know why you would come here if you didn't want to be a writer. And this isn't about censorship. You can both write quality hubs and express your views on the forum.
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  Disturbiaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I love you habee, you are just always so right on the money!
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mistyhorizon2003posted 14 years ago
I totally agree, too many people on the forums who are argumentative or just plain nasty, have zero hubs, or maybe one or two, yet they have made hundreds of forum posts.
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  relacheposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What about people who have made lots of Hubs but are argumentative and just plain nasty, and have made hundreds of forum posts?
  
  Why don't you want to take action against them as well?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't nastiness get flagged?
  
  Why should someone who is plainly NOT a Hubber post in forums at a Hub writing site?
  
  You know darn well some if them are sock puppets, too. This woukd make it harder to keep that lie up - might not be worth the effort to some of them.
  
  And it definitely would keep out the call girls, most of the children and quite a few who are only here to cause trouble.
  
  Explsin to me why we NEED those people. What value do they bring?
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  mistyhorizon2003posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say I didn't want to take action against them as well, but the OP was asking about people who weren't writing hubs, I answered this question rather than going off on a tangent.
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Uma07posted 14 years ago
You made a great suggestion.You have my vote.
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  sofsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  P C unix has a valid point, If there is some limit may be not 5 hubs
  the number of spammers will be controlled and so will be the children who are posting on the forums.
  The call girl spamming may be come to an end!!
  HP Admin should consider this.
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Stacie Lposted 14 years ago
I agree,a new rule of no forum posting until you have a few hubs under your belt.
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aguasilverposted 14 years ago
Totally agree, 5 seems a reasonable number to expect someone will put up, and would give them the time to 'acclimatise' to the cut and thrust of the forums without adding to it!
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Ultimate Hubberposted 14 years ago
I am glad that you don't run the HubPages! Just kidding

On a serious note, this would look like hubpages is using stick instead of carrot to make people write more and more hubs which might give a bad impression to the website overall.
Forums are for everyone to talk whatever they want unless it doesn't violate the TOS.

We own our user profile and it is completely up to us whether we want to write a single hub or not in the first few months of joining the site.

I am sure you know Ryankett here, he didn't write a single hub for about a year or so after joining. And see how good his hubs are performing now.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe Ryan thinks this is a good idea.
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habeeposted 14 years ago
Ryan didn't come on the forums just to start trouble, either - or to sell Ugg boots, bridal gowns, or call girl services.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But The Hubber community does not tolerate these people for long. I report every piece of spam I see.
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  Ultimate Hubberposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Where did I say that? Did you read my whole post? I just gave his name as an example that if HP staff is crazy enough to apply this limit then we might lose some good hubbers who will say goodbye to HP due to their stick theory.
  
  HP can not force any of us to write a word here!
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  habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, UH! I wasn't implying that you said that!
  I was just saying that Ryan is probably the exception. There are lots of trolls who come to the forums ONLY to start trouble, without ever saying anything nice to anyone OR ever bothering to write a hub.
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Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago
Some would merely publish 5 short hubs and then go on the forums to spam or troll! I like the idea of cutting out this stuff but doing it effectively is a challenge!
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If the hubs are junk, they will be flagged. Even so, it provides a barrier and will keep out the true riff-raff.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not disagreeing with you at all, Pcunix! But would the hubs be flagged before or after the author was allowed to post? Also, how long after the hubs were written would the writer have to wait until the hubs were considered legit? It's not as if the hubs are guaranteed a quick reading by someone who could pass muster on them.
  
  Then there is the problem with someone with multiple accounts. I assume the additional account holders would also have to pass the test too, which should be no real problem for them. But then. I have always been in favor of the multiples only being able to use one name for most of the forums!
  
  But as I said, I am fully in favor of some sort of process which can fairly assess the hubber's value to the site.
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Pearldiverposted 14 years ago
I have been 'preaching' this for a year now... and in that time a couple of thousand Spammers, Idiots, Trolls, C&Ps and BS Accounts have passed through here... All doing Damage in some way!
Good Luck with this.....
Like Many Others.... I've been Banned here twice for defending myself against Trolls that HP have effectively Defended and Endorsed the actions of.. by punishing genuine hubbers that have rightfully taken exception to nothing people trying to negatively break down our writing and the good work that we have done for the site. (Now that's something that gets forgotten in the equation.. isn't it? )
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  Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you'd end up with people talking to themselves in the forums like this guy!
  
  Changing the forum formats is an Easy thing to do...
  The problem however, is not so much the changing, as it is that the right change... requires more transpirancy... which requires???
  
  Good luck....
  
  Seems Blank and Vacant Spaces have a say as well
  
  @ Reality Bytes.... If they had to attend a Boot Camp... they wouldn't need to do that would they... Their writing skills and knowledge would mean that they didn't need to ask such questions in the forums?
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  A Boot Camp?
  
  If I had to join a "Boot Camp to take part in any section of the site, for me it would be taking the time to search for another site.
  
  I would think I was at an elitist site of intellectual snobs and I would have pursued another site.
  
  But some would think that would have been a good idea?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only us liberal elite intellectual snobs
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then perhaps you would be happier creating your own platform so you can reign supreme and deem others as worthy.
  
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Gosh, those look like nice people. I like them much better than angry eagles.
  
  Noobody said anything about deeming others worthy. We only want to put up a small barrier to discourage call girls, children, two a.m. drunks, lazy spammers and the very laziest of the sock puppets.
  
  That is all. No judgment. No banning of libertarians, biblical literalists, alien abduction conspiratists or anyone else. Just a tiny bit of work required before they can jump in and start yelling. Is that really so terrifying to you? Do you LIKE those people in the forums?
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  So as long as someone posts five hubs of whatever value content then they would have all the privileges?
  
  Incrementalism.
  
  Next step: Your hubber score needs to be at such a number before you are allowed to post in the forums.
  
  Next: You must achieve so much traffic before.....
  
  How do you know the call girls, children, two a.m. drunks, lazy spammers and the very laziest of the sock puppets will not just create the appropriate number of hubs full of drivel and five word poems in half an hour?
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some will. Most would not.
  
  Do you LIKE those people?
  
  Incrementalism: you want to reduce the size of the Federal government. That will lead to no Federal powers and then no State powers and we will have ANARCHY! Is that the way it works?
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Next step: Your hubber score needs to be at such a number before you are allowed to post in the forums."
  
  Now THAT is a GOOD idea....
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ...and the more I read everyone's comments, it seems more realistic.
  
  I have no idea what score we start with, but it seems to me that it must be possible to set an achievable score that would confirm the fact that the hubber was here to write hubs, not just use the forum as a platform for their own agenda.
  
  The whole concept of hubpages is to produce good fresh content and attract readers and revenue, the forums are a place to chill out or interact with friends and foes, they should be for hubbers, and keeping sock puppets, trolls and spammers out will improve the whole forum experience.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps set the default so new hubbers can post, but will lose that privilege (other than the help related forums, Extreme Makover and the like) if their overall Hubber score falls too low?
  
  Yeah, that could work.
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IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years ago
I actually have a hard time taking them seriously. It is my opinion that they are taking advantage of hubpages good fortune, built from the typing hands of us hubbers who do write.

Hubpages is probably okay with them coming in here and starting trouble because someday maybe they well start writing. So it is a good business decision. However, as writers I wish we would blacklist these posters, and ignore them all together. That's my wish.
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  Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  RABBLE ROUSERS!!!
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
So next time some obama-hater or religious nutcase enters the forum, they need to write spammy hub ? Because of this many good URL's are taken by spammers already.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If they really are spammers, why are they not flagged and removed?
  
  Can you give an example?
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some spammers are already removed by staff. I think even you're aware of TKsensei with various incarnations like - Padrino, Jim hunter etc. One-liner sarcastic personal attack is his fav line of attack in forums. There are many other spammers in religious/political forums, they rarely contribute to site in positive way.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And Jim Hunter wrote how many hubs? Two, was it?
  
  That is my point. Keep that kind of garbage out.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  AFAICT Jim Hunter is just someone whose political views happen to be different from your own.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Has Jim been banned? His profile is still up!
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe. Maybe he is busy being someone else.
  
  Or maybe he too has other things to do every now and then.
  
  Even conservatives have lives in the real world. Dark, suspicion filled, very fearful lives, but lives just the same
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps. But if he isn't six different people, would it be so onerous for him to write a few hubs? He certainly has a wide range of opinions.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Probably not, but...
  
  Here's my personal take on this issue. This is an Internet forum. On an Internet forum, you're always going to get sockpuppets, troublemakers and - dare I say it - people who are perfectly OK people, but who just happen to have completely different opinions to your good self and aren't afraid to express them.
  
  The more censorship and restriction you try and introduce, the more boring and samey things are going to get. Which will reduce the popularity of the forum and for all I know, have a consequent adverse effect on HubPages' overall traffic and earnings.
  
  I can therefore live with the occasional sockpuppet. Sometimes they even make life here more interesting/fun.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you are implying that I am a perfectly OK person, you are wrong :-)
  
  Anyway - yes, I don't disagree. So if you don't like that, how about an "introduce yourself" forum where you would have to post and survive being not identified as a spammer/call girl for some number of hours?
  
  And if you cannot even pass that basic test - that is, if you can't even be bothered to lie and make up a back story we can buy, then you can't post.
  
  "Hi, my name is Tiffany and I know what boys like" wouldn't cut it, right? If fifty of us don't flag it inside of an hour, let 'em post whatever and wherever they want.
  
  After all, if somebody has something valuable to say on the forums, surely they can provide a few paragraphs about themselves, can't they?
  
  My bet is that would still get rid of a lot of them and would meet every objection, I think.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you're expecting people to provide an autobiography before they can be deemed "worthy" of full participation in the forums?
  
  No thanks. A lot of us don't work like that. I know I don't - my forum posts tend to be opinion-based or strictly factual - I just don't do autobiography (except on very rare occasions and then only after I've been on a forum for a while and feel comfortable there).
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But you do not fit into the category Pcunix suggested would be bad for the site! Apparently some have no problem with these types being on the site. Now if the call girls were beautiful......! LOL!
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know that I don't fit into the category, and I know that I don't fit into it, but the point is that if Pcunix's idea were introduced here and I was a new member, I'd still have to go through the ghastly "introduce yourself with a suitable autobiography" scenario. In effect, I and other new members would be "guilty until proven innocent" which is a bad scenario in any context.
  
  In a nutshell, I don't see why I should have to justify my existence to anyone here. If I post spam or act like a troll, then there is already a system in place where people can flag me. It might not be perfect, but then nothing is.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry to hear creating your profile was such a ghastly experience! I didn't find it in the least upsetting!
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When I posted before, I didn't realise that one's profile "counted" - that got introduced into the discussion a couple of minutes later! But my general point still stands - I don't see how having an "introduce yourself" forum is going to improve matters here - IMO it will still engender the "guilty till proven innocent" vibe that I alluded to earlier.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've noticed no one suggesting we make it hard for a new hubber to participate here. I too can ignore the spammers, sock puppets, etc. but they still cause problems unrelated to the actual intention of this site. At least I think so!
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Let the hubs stand or fall as they do now. But I really think we should put up SOMETHING to discourage instant entry to the general forums. Not to Help and Extreme Makeover and the others related to that. Just to the rest. And nothing terribly hard. Just SOMETHING to stop the call girls, children, drunks and really, really lazy spammers.
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  relacheposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's called "flagging" and you use the report button to do it, and the feature is already active on the site.
  
  There's just two problems with it: 1) most Hub users are too lazy to do it and 2) admin doesn't respond as fast as we wish they would when crap is flagged.
  
  If we can fix the two problems, the present system would work just fine.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  With you on this Relache.
  I can keep up with and report most spam which I am happy to do and wish others to do also, but hubpages does seem to take too long getting them taken down especially at the weekend.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm not expecting an autobiography. As I said at the new post I just made about this, you can even tell people it's fine to make up the whole thing if they want - it doesn't have to be true.
  
  Think of it as just a little harder than a "Captcha" box. You just need to write enough that X number of people won't immediately flag it.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What you put on your profile page would be more than adequate. Nobody would flag it.
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  PrettyPantherposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with this. I've always been an advocate of the fewer rules the better when it comes to forums. My experience has been that creating more rules only leads to more arguments and hassles over the interpretation of the rules.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, sista!!
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And it is your business at all because?
  
  MYOB
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You misunderstood. I was saying that if there were a 5 or 10 hub requirement, Jim certainly has enough opinions to meet that.
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point is that when we make it compulsory for spammers/trolls to write hubs when it comes to forum participation then chances of spammy hubs & losing URL's to spam is more.
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A good point. I agree.
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Jim Hunter is here and has published hubs. Your comment was an attack on a hubber that is not even here to defend himself.
  
  BTW: who are you to determine who is garbage.
  
  http://hubpages.com/profile/Jim+Hunter
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jim's only purpose here seems to be to argue in the forums. He only published anything because people kept accusng him of being a sock puppet.
  
  But at least he did publish, so you are correct. And, given the amount of forum posts he does, he could certainly do more, and they might even be quite popular with other conservatives. It is not "garbage". I had forgotten that he did that.
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jim, I don't know why I said that. I was thinking of the real junk and you got dragged in and I was wrong.
  
  You and I do not agree on much of anything and your debating style annoys me greatly, but it is not garbage and I was wrong to say that.
  
  I apologize.
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  Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He wrote 1 & 1/2 actually. The whole hub was plainly tossed together with minimum effort. The half-hub was a hub whining about how he was being forced to write a hub. On the other hand, with 1.5 hubs, he would have sailed past your first screening level. Jim was the highest posting hubber on the politics forum. I suppose it is possible that someone would be a meaningful member of the hubber community without spending most of their time on hubs...but I thought we were a community of writers. If you just come on here to surf the forums, you aren't necessarily a troll but you fit the profile. Sometimes I think hubpages would be better if they eliminated the forums altogether. It might help us focus.
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mega1posted 14 years ago
without the 2 a.m. drunks these forum threads just wouldn't be fun at all!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Drinks" or "drunks"?
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Website Examinerposted 14 years ago
I'm too fatigued from flagging yesterday's multi-account spammer to even voice an opinion.
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EmpressFelicityposted 14 years ago
I don't think it's a bad idea that forum posting should be restricted to people who have published at least one hub. It will help to cut down on forum spam (a little), and it will mean that the occasional "what is a hub?" or "I've just joined HubPages. Now what do I do??" forum post will be a thing of the past. (These members will just have to use a bit of initiative and read the Help section. That's what it's there for, after all...)

But I'd be very wary of introducing any more restrictions on posting other than that.
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anonimuzzposted 14 years ago
I think that restriction would have little effect on the overall quality of the forum postings. Even people with several published hubs can snap from time to time and not contribute positively to a thread or, for some reason, offend another hubber. In that case, how different would it be to cause a mess before or after the first hub? I believe in sensible moderation, but not so much in those standard rules that only exist to create some sort of false sense of security.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm!
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not trying to get rid of discord and disagreement. Again, I want to discourage call girls, children, drunks and the laziest of the spammers and sock puppets.
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I understand. But I really don't think that it would do much, in spite of your good intentions suggesting the rule. People that willingly waste so much of their time ruining the forums for everyone won't mind publishing one little hub of questionable quality and originality, as long as it grants them access to their favorite entertainment. One hub is not an insignificant sacrifice for good hubbers only, it is for the bad ones as well. They won't see it as a relevant obstacle.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you indeed new? Or is this an alter ego?
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I'm fake as a snake. The minute you think you charmed me, there goes my poison into your veins.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No wonder you disagree with the suggestion! LOL!
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously! I don't wanna have to write (well, you can discreetly replace this with "steal") a darn hub and actually do something useful for this place while at it. I very much prefer annoying everyone around here, insulting the hubbers and their silly ideas. Isn't it so much more fun?
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  EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just for those who cannot write anything on their own!
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ouch. Just because of that one, I'll publish a hub right now.
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I bet you were applying this - http://hubpages.com/hub/How-To-Catch-A- … ke-Catcher - with me, right now.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It could be done! LOL!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good for you! This is acceptable here!
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you didn't steal it, well done!
  
  If you did, good taste, anyway :-)
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  anonimuzzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Lol, I was just kidding, I didn't steal it. It was saved as a draft for a couple of days, waiting for me to delete it or something, and now I just felt like putting it up. But let's not advertise around here =P
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  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do another as good and I might follow you :-)
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tony0724posted 14 years ago
I do not think it right that we squelch anybody their right to say what they have to say. However like the general consensus here I agree that they should have some degree of a track record of work here. I agree some just come here to stir the pot and no other reason than that.
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  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know I do, especially certain people.
  
  But then I'm not going to cry about it....mommy they can't play with us cause they ain''t smart as we is.
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Aficionadaposted 14 years ago
I admire the attempts to come up with a workable solution for this problem, but we're/you're still not quite there yet.

Still thinking "out loud" : Would it help towards improving the situation, if brand new hubbers are not allowed to open a thread except in the Help and Extreme Hub Makeover sections? Then later, since it is possible to participate responsibly as a Hubber with only one hub published, maybe the permission to open threads could be related to length of time one has been a member of HP or number of Hubs or forum posts, or some combination of these.

However, having thought that out loud, I agree with what relache wrote - that we all need to take the initiative to flag as needed, and it would be wonderful if the staff would respond to the flags very quickly. The times I have flagged, the response has been moderately quick, but I have also seen situations that looked like they needed a faster response.

A different but related problem to me is the people who publish what seems to amount to an entire Hub as a forum post. I admit, I have seen at least one example of this that I thought was done well and responsibly. But most of the time, the poster needs to trim it down or split it up. Would there be any advantage to having a limit to the size of a single forum post?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This would suit me fine, but some over in the Religion and Beliefs forum like to copy and paste whole pages of scripture for some reason! I wish god would sue them for plagiarism sometimes!
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Lisa HWposted 14 years ago
Most of the time I find the 2:00 a.m. drunks entertaining.

A lot of the rest of it, though, I'm not too thrilled with. Maybe the idea of not allowing people to start threads could reduce some stuff. As it is, you get this: Someone starts a thread, "How do you clean a coffee cup?" Then, if you click on their profile you see they have nothing on there but a link to their website that sells coffee-cup cleaner (or something like that.

People who don't like the idea of some kind of limit seem to keep using the word, "worthy". I don't think of it as "worthy" at all. I think of it as whether a person is really a member of the HubPages community, and has joined with the overall aims of the site in mind. I can't help but wonder if some of the Hubbers who don't bother with the forums don't bother because there can be a real lot of meaningless foolishness/trouble stirred up by people who aren't interested in the site or in writing.

Not that everyone has to do this, but I was a Hubber for - like - a year (plus or minus a month or two) before I did more on the forums than ask one or two questions in the "help" section (about HubPages, itself). By the time something caught my eye in the forums I didn't uncomfortable posting because I knew I'd been a "real" member (and community member) for a long time.

A person here or there who just comes on to do something like stir up argument or else get attention for his own agenda isn't a big deal, but a high percentage does change the whole nature of the forum "community". I mean - what is even the point of coming on here, pretending you're someone different every day a half?

I guess it's a matter of asking, "Do people want the forums to be for anyone, regardless of whether or not they have any stake in the overall HubPages community, or any reason not to want to stir up trouble just for their own entertainment or gain; or do people want the forums to be something a larger percentage of Hubbers see as something that's "theirs too" - not something completely separate from the rest of HubPages. I don't know... Sometimes I just kind of think, "it is what it is, and it's all fine (sort of and a good part of the time)". Other times, I do think it's kind of unfortunate that so many Hubbers don't even bother with the forums because of the numbers of people who come to them either for their own personal entertainment or agenda.

I'm not a big fan of rules and screening-out, but as it is now someone can set up a new sockpuppet in about five minutes/ten minutes, and be on here "doing whatever" within minutes. Somehow, to me, it shouldn't be that quick and easy (and at the cost of having people who do give a rat's bottom about the site, and the other members, but who don't participate because sometimes so many don't. Would "sincere" members still argue? Sure. But would they start arguments and trouble for fun? No, because they wouldn't want to do too much to wreck their reputation as a Hubber and writer. In a way, I, personally, don't really care who's on here "doing whatever". If I step back from whether I care or not, though, and think of what I think would improve the overall "forum experience" for "real" members, I do think a reasonable limit here or there might be good. There are times when "stake-less" forum posters pretty much take advantage of the site for their own purposes, and even make fools of "sincere" members. I don't think that's all that great for business.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And if I may add, Lisa, these sockpuppets and hubless members have nothing to lose if they get banned from the site for insulting behavior.
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Anamika Sposted 14 years ago
I think not allowing Hubbers with less than 5 Hubs to participate in forums or ask questions can reduce spammers to a greater extent.
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EmpressFelicityposted 14 years ago
There seem to be two separate approaches being proposed here:

(1) prevent people from posting anywhere (except the "Help" or "Extreme Hub Makeover" sections) until they've published "x" number of hubs, and

(2) prevent people from posting generally in the forums until they've "proved themselves to be real hubbers" in some sort of "get to know you" area of the forums.

I don't actually have a problem with option (1). It's transparent and while it won't eliminate spammers/trolls, it will at least cut down the level of spamming/trolling a bit.

But option (2) is anything BUT transparent. It depends entirely on a cosy coterie of people flagging those whose opinions they dislike. Presumably the site's moderators would have the final say on who gets allowed "in" and who doesn't, but it still strikes me as a very underhanded way to run a forum. No thanks.
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  Anamika Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm...That makes sense!
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cindyvineposted 14 years ago
This is not the military high security area, let em in!
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Website Examinerposted 14 years ago
EmpressFelicity, I agree with you about option (2). It seems to me quite artificial. Many Hubbers are not even comfortable with going to the forums in the first place. When suddenly they want to voice their opinion on something after maybe months of being quiet, they would have no access.
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habeeposted 14 years ago
Randy and I often disagree, but he's never "underhanded or cowardly." I think his question was honest.
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  Elpasoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No No No
  I dont mean Randy at all! He did not start this witch hunt.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whew! That was close!
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Elpasoposted 14 years ago
AGAIN! BACK TO THE SUBJECT...
Silly me, since I dont live on the West Bank; it took me a day or so to realize the tactic at play here. Speaking for myself; I will leave here when I think I have said all I have to say. When and if I feel like writing another hub, I will do it, according to my time table.

For those of you who dont want to stay on topic; Did you hear that the Muslim cabbie was begging for his life while he was stabbed. And the only thing he wanted his potential Murderer to know was that he was a hard working man(as compared to a terrorist). Another innocent man that just wanted to make it home to his family.
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  Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are being defensive and not particularly helpful. This has nothing to do with your viewpoints. I generally agree with your political views, but if you got kicked off the forums until you made a commitment to produce some hubs I would think it justified.
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Elpasoposted 14 years ago
If this thread is about some little girl and not about my forum defending the right of the Muslim People to build their Mosque; I would like to offer a big Ole "never mind" to you all. Just a case of bad timing. I hope.
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CkhoffmanKposted 14 years ago
ugh.. that's a real elitist way to think and behave.

Good thing HP doesn't run it this way.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
This (in countless variations) has been suggested countless times before, and never implemented. I bet there is a reason it was not.
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blondepoetposted 14 years ago
Oh the ones that come here just to say a bit of rubbish grrrr...
Now I for one have never talked rubbish in my whole life.
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sidpoudyalposted 14 years ago
OK, I finally read the entire thread. I didn't just skim through it. I read EVERY SINGLE POST... Oh, boy. Alright, well I am on the side that less requirements is better for all. Let me tell you why.

Setting high requirements will keep away potentially great community members. Yeah, we are hoping to filter out the unwanted visitors but every time you try to do this you will also lose out on great prospects. There is fact. Yeah, you could try to argue and say, "How difficult is it to write a few hubs" or "Well, if they couldn't do that then they wouldn't be great at all" or any other variation but this is simply not true. There has been evidence of several contributing members who would have never stuck around if less were offer or higher requirements were set. Losing even one great member is not worth it.

Not to work the other side.

Those who wish that there was higher requirements or some blocks in place before becoming a full-fledged member want this not because of some elitist mantra (well maybe but I'll leave that possibility out for now) but because they want to cut down on the spam (call it call girls, drunks, trolls or whatever but its essentially spam). Their thinking is that these spammers have few or no positive contributions to the site via hubs, commenting or what-have-you so requiring these stats to be met will cut down on spam. Wrong.

Spammers have such low statistics because that is all that is required of them. Thinking that setting the bar higher will cut out the spammers is logical only to those who haven't been a part of any forums before. If you set the bar higher then the spammers will meet those requirements the only way they know how (spam) and as fast as they can. This only further adds to the spam. Before it may have been just in the forums but now it has spread deeper into more low quality (spam) hubs and useless comments.

Trust me, no matter how high you set whatever requirement you do, if someone can pass the requirements then spammers can and will meet the requirements and find a way to automate. Its what they do. Even if you make it so that their is an actual cost to join the forum then you have really just invited more spammers because now a forum membership can be considered a commodity and sold. Spammers will mass create memberships, hubs, comments and start posting them for sale. They could set up a business dedicated to it and make some nice cash while you deal with even more spam than you have now. It has happened before, still goes on today and will continue to happen. Trust me.

Also, these requirements will also just make it that much more difficult to get rid of spam. Now, if you see someone with 0 posts who just joined up you can easily tell that they are spamming, flag them and eventually the mods will delete the spam. Remember what was asked before, "How difficult is it to just write a few hubs", not at all right? Well spammers WILL create mass accounts if needed, put up 10 or however many hubs are needed per account, and then let the accounts just sit for a few weeks or even a month to gain some sort of seniority. Then, their accounts are just ripe for spamming and they will go to work or sell off the accounts and the buyers will really go crazy.

In conclusion, setting up higher requirements, any more requirements will only increase the spam and make it more difficult to flag as such. I think I am going to publish this as a hub.

You can find the hub here:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-We-Can-Not- … t-HubPages

Scroll down to the poll and quiz if you already read this entire post.
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Lisa HWposted 14 years ago
As I said earlier, I'm fine with either approach. I like cindyvine's "let-'em-in" thinking; but I don't see why some basic, minimum, requirement would be all that big a deal either. Forums everywhere have that.
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  sidpoudyalposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And forums everywhere get spammed. There is no reason to keep complaining about it (I know you are not but I think that is the general jist of this thread).
  
  These arguments for higher requirements, more moderation, more accountability from site owners come up all the time everywhere. Its really nothing new, ever.
  
  Thinking that you (or anyone) came up with THE solution to spam is not doing anything for the mods here. They will implement what they want when they want and more than likely they have already heard everything dozens of times. Haha, they have probably heard it so much that they consider THIS to be spam for THEM!
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selrachposted 14 years ago
Pcunix I understand where you are coming from with your question,but I have read this entire thread WHERE ARE THE CALL GIRLS?

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  DoorMattnomoreposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess they are busy at the moment.
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  selrachposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It,s only 1pm and not even the weekend they can,t all be busy.
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  DoorMattnomoreposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  putting on makeup?
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  Reality Bytesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think they were scared away by this thread.
  reply report

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