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Okay, so I am another person here really. But for the sake of posting in the forum I thought it better to be incognito. I am surprised no-one has mentioned this yet on the forums (well not that I have seen anyway)
My question is: "Have many people had hubs unpublished lately due to excessive backlinks?". It seems we are no longer wanted if we actually try to get our hubs to rank.
So, if you are working hard to raise the profile of your hubs do be careful. And, take this (http://learningcenter.hubpages.com/a-gu … cklinking/) information seriously.
Looks like the hub-team are actually following through! I wrongly though the team were covering themselves against serial spammers but it is more wide-ranging than that.
No more backlinks for any of my hubs thats for sure!
And yes, I guess it means we now have a way to obliterate hubs that are our competitors, get them some backlinks, watch them rank highly then see them unpublished! Just thinking out loud - not a new business plan!
Unfortunately that's one of the bigger flaws of the approach. Try proving that ten of your hubs haven't just gained a shed load of backlinks from your own hand.
Earning a living online can become a dirty business. Much like any other form of business
This has always been part of the problem.
Some of it is easy enough: if someone uses their Adsense or Analytics code, or has left trails in "whois", or is using the same Amazon affiliate links, etc., it's easy enough to programmatically determine that this is incestuous linking.
But you would assume that anyone with even minor sophistication would not leave such breadcrumbs, so how would you know that a competitor wasn't leaving the damaging links?
I don't think there is any answer to that, so I suspect that the only possible actions are against the unsophisticated and careless. Anything else would risk tragic mistakes.
So, I have to ask the OP: how excessive were your links and how sophisticated were you about leaving clues? If you were careless, that's one thing. If you wwre not, then the competitve angle is something people would have reason to worry about.
Links were unnatural but from a wide range of sources, and far less excessive than many would do. My links were a mixture of things you see mentioned every day, some forums (not thousands), no comment spam, and some articles (a few hand-spun - the shame). No clues like affiliate links were left. But any internet savvy folk would know it was backlinking on purpose since who writes articles pointing at other people's hubs about the greatest 7 widgets for sale?
My point was never "its not fair", much of internet marketing is weird and ever changing. And some of it is downright sleazy.
The point of my post is that others that take "making money on hubpages" seriously (and do not rely on the good-will of others sending backlinks to their "top 7 best widgets" hubs), should realise that hp may no longer tolerate what so many of us do on a day to day basis.
I don't blame them, it is all usually down to what the BigG will put up with, but have to be honest I never thought they would actually check!
Internet savvy, fine, but could it have been done by code?
Were you careless as to timing? Too many, too fast?
No idea if it could be done by code - the most code I know is a href!
Whatever the "mistake" I made has been duplicated on many of my hubs over the last year. But to date only one has been highlighted (a total non-earner too!). My guess is this is just random. Lots of links in a month and someone must have a look and then who knows...
Thank heavens for real sites of my own! Shall return to only using hubs as backlinks for my other stuff!
Organic links happen over time.
If I really have written the definitive page on whatever, I may get a small flurry of links instantly, but what I would guess Google looks for is that links keep getting added over time - not on any schedule, but sporadically.
I would again guess that this is exactly the strategy the true linkmeisters use - they may end up with hundreds of links, but the links appear like weeds rather than like laying down sod.
So, my guess is that you did too much too fast. I don't condone doing ANY of it - I think it is a bit disgusting to manipulate search engines. I'd also point out that going to the effort that would make it all look natural and organic is likely a fair bit of work - why not expend that effort in some honest pursuit instead?
This is correct. If a site suddenly gets a ton of backlinks one month and very few the following, Google tends to be suspicious. Instead, a wise thing to do is spread it out. Lets say you found a way to spit out 1000 backlinks in a month (for the sake of example, I know you said you're not into that). The wiser thing to do is to post 100 a month for the next 10 months. More time, takes longer, and probably isn't as easy, but will be 10 times more effective.
I agree - it is indeed very interesting (though I doubt you would be much amused).
Wow, a hub unpublished for excessive backlinking!
I went and read that page completely - it even mentions some "backlinking tools and programs" that will be watched closely. Infact, HP has gone ahead a step and say they will ban those who "persist in utilizing these services".
The fact remains that baclinking forms the major part of promotional activity for Hubs.
I would watch this thread.
There are right ways of doing backlinks, and there are wrong ways. Looks like you moved too far along the wrong path...
The pollution of the internet by junk backlinking has hurt all of us.
I'm happy to see proactive steps toward cleaning up the junk.
Oh. I read it through also. Interesting. Unfortunately, the 'write quality and you will gain natural inks' is misleading. Some will. Many won't.
In short, the best way to get backlinks is to write original, useful, high quality content. ... isn't entirely wrong. Note the word 'best'. That part. As in the most honorable, the most decent, the fairest.
I have a number that definitely have been shown link-love ... and I haven't lifted a finger. Others, written with the same attention to detail, the same approach, haven't.
Do I 'game' the system? No. Do I think it's fair? No. Fact is, it happens. And not all systems are get rich quick. Those that I'm aware of actually require that you invest a very dirty word ... work. Never assume that utilizing (some) backlinking products means you don't have to lift a finger.
Anyway - from HP's perspective does anyone (on HP) really expect to see the team endorsing such methods? I don't. That may well become business suicide. Frowned upon anything is something that any business with half a shred of intelligence would avoid being associated with.
I think it's best to be sensible. Write quaility hubs, leave them alone a while. Those that need support, provide it. A few Ezines, use of blogs and other article sites. Add 10% more content, look for more tags and add them.
I would not disagree with a single word.
I'm on record here and in a number of my hubs as being against the kind of shotgun self-created backlinking that is so often recommended here. I am very glad to see HP expressing the same opinions, as I have been labeled as naive and even "dangerous" by some of those who enthusiastically promote such methods. If I am naive and dangerous, then I guess HP is right there with me, just as foolish and just as "dangerous" in giving bad advice to newbies.
I've been writing and making money on the web for 19 years now. I've seen all this junk develop over the years and have been complaining about it even before Adsense (which has been the greatest impetus behind it) existed.
I KNOW that cream can rise by itself. The naysayers can belittle that all they want, but it is fact nonetheless. I also know that you can manipulate Google - I have watched people do that, clumsily and cleverly, for many a year now.
Almost anybody can learn to game Google. Getting away with it and making money at it for long periods of time requires work, and of course you will be competing with people who have been doing it much longer and who have the financial resources o buy tools and hire labor that the beginner can't match.
Not everyone can write quality web pages (just do a little Hub Hopping if you need to refresh your memory on that). Therefore, the "gaming" track looks more attractive right off the bat.
Even if you CAN write compelling content, cream doesn't always rise quickly - so a little gaming is tempting for all of us. I went down that road once myself - it bothered me, I didn't feel "clean" and I quit it, but it is easy to understand the temptation.
I don't have any absolute answers. I don't like spammy backlinking, but when done professionally, I don't see how HP or Google is ever going to detect it. The real pros put great effort into what, where and even when these links are placed and are very careful to leave no clues. It's going to look organic and unless we enter a world of authenticated Internet access such as China wants, I can't see how it could ever be stopped.
For myself, I drop a link in Twitter and Facebook. If I have another article elsewhere that should reference what I just wrote or vice versa, I add that link. I follow Google's linking advice: "Before making any single decision, you should ask yourself the question: Is this going to be beneficial for my page's visitors?".
Naive. Foolish. Dangerous.
Arh, but Google hold the purse strings for HP and it looks like where the purse strings lie, there are nut crackers awaiting to be clenched. HP's business model has been put between a rock and a hard place - this site either plays by Google rules or pull out. I dont envy HP being in this position.. the mayday algorythm saga continues.....
HP has not long employed more techies ... they seem to be working hard in protecting the site from being banned due to bad intenet behaviour (or black hat methods).
- Automated filter for undesirable terms
- A change in tutorial (from changing the sequence of how to adwords tool, to placing videos in facebook as opposed to youtube... it might be that there is a greater value to social networking sites - sure we all know this - and to protect the information from widespread viewing).
- There are strong messages of do not backlink or you might get banned! How strong a message do we want?
- The learning center is more extensive and reinforces the above message.
- I have noticed that HP have cleaned up the site - so they must be doing something right - it has been a long time since I have seen 'indian beauty babes do it up-side-down' hubs with A3 pictures demonstrating how they do 'it'.
After saying all this, I remember some six months ago Darkside saying 'Well, the good news, Shazwellyn, is that all you need to do is produce quality hubs to get well ranked'. I saw a change in how he was producing his hubs and thought that he was onto something. He knew, I thought, something that I didn't at the time. How right was he?!
If you can backlink while sitting down, why not? As long as your content is good enough, instead of manually doing it, then you can spend time studying keywords and writing.
On the other side, HP as a site will be considered spam because of many people paying for automated backlinks.
It seems Hubpages is worried about getting slapped like Squidoo was, which is a valid concern (for them and us).
Still, I'm curious what reasonable is. As forum profile already stated, this makes it easy for depraved hubbers to bomb their competitors and potentially get them banned.
From the article- Just do nothing? lol. It's not going to work out that way if anyone is here for money. Write a affiliate sales hub with no backlinks,no ping and then wait for big-bang in your stats huh?One needs to get into gray area to make a single sale else wait for that random sale.
Not everyone is into backlink spree so obviously that article doesn't apply to everyone.
Anyone who clamis they sell stuff without backlinks to sales page then that is a lie. People are still having trouble to get indexed their hubs and just do nothing? How small is internet by the way to standout from the crowd?
Skyfire, You said what I tried to say in far fewer words!
I haven't got the dedication for a real backlink spree but nevertheless it was excessive it seems (though 150ish links showing up puts it way below what a lot of the more dedicated "make money onliners" would do).
The funny thing is several rather high scored hubs suggest doing the same backlinks I did and many more that I wouldn't - Ironic huh!
Can you give me an example of the type of backlinks that you used? Where did you backlink? How did you backlink?
150 backlinks for just 1 hub does seem excessive to me also. I give my hubs no more than about 5 unnatural backlinks, most have perhaps 2 or 3... then they are left to fend on their own..
If I stopped publishing now, I would need to find 72450 backlinks in order to give each of my hubs 150 backlinks each.
That is not possible without some sort of automation, like an auto-poster. You say that you haven't got the dedication for a real backlink spree... but I'm not sure what you could consider a spree... 150 backlinks for one hubpage? That sounds like a mighty spree to me... hell, that would take me a week for one hub using my techniques. Am I reading that correctly?
I am stopping short of saying serves you right, because I am sure that there is a good chance that you are a well known hubber and possibly a well liked one.
I had no idea that people would create so many backlinks, and in fact this is the first time that I have genuinely felt that affiliate marketing is "weird and ever changing. And some of it is downright sleazy." as you state yourself.
Anyway, a good lesson learnt. I would appear to be at no real risk of unpublished hubs through this change.
So I guess that means I shouldn't worry about a tweet and a digg now and then?
150? Gee I'd be lucky to have half that across all my hubs!
And what happened to the operation, Ryan? Or did I miss something?
Its all done, I am in pain, but boredom and the lack of ability to leave my small apartment drives me towards opening up my world again on Hubpages.
I have almost zero concentration, and therefore the inability to write any hubs. I was going to do a bit of backlinking but this thread has put me off
Well at least your well enough to be on HP. That's all that matters, right?
And you can sit back and watch your traffic increase.
I got 6 sales on Amazon today.
Even without a single promotional link, Google is going to find and crawl every single thing you post.
I certainly agree that the typical valueless "How to buy Ding Bat Bolts" post that has nothing in it you couldn't find at a hundred other places isn't going to get much help from that, but, as disturbing as the thought may be to some, I think we could survive without yet another "Five Best New Ding Bat Bolts for Xmas" post.
I know that's not a popular sentiment
Point is about making a sale and not to get indexed as yet another white-hat author with 1kth post update.
No wonder some top affilitaes in this site don't join such threads.
This sounds very much like the "I have mouths to feed" argument.
OK, for some the point may be simply making the sale. I am all about "making the sale" too, but I still insist that yet another "Five Hot New Ding Bat Bolt Posts" that is nothing more than a rehash of information widely available elsewhere is not anything we need, so if Google or HP or whoever finds a way to diminish the ability to artificially promote such junk, I'm all for it.
I'm not against "Five Uses for Ding Bat Bolts You Never Thought Of". I'm not against "How I almost lost my arm because of defective Ding Bat Bolts" or "Inside A chinese Ding Bat Bolt Factory - shocking photos!"
You can't stop rehash of information and its the job of readers and not even google or HP. I did hatemongering against autoblog when my programming tutorials were copied.Do you think this will end? keep dreaming.only removal of feed and page protection helped me against plagiarism . You very well know that software documentation exists yet people write same stuff again giving it personal touch or simple rehash. Ironically HP's top earners are in the gray area but less open about it into forums. So you want to start i-hate-it-i wanna-dump-it
campaign?go ahead. I mind my own business. I'm honest being into gray area and i have nothing against either side. Call it 'make money' or 'mouth to feed' argument.
I only disagree slightly.
It IS Google's job to filter redundant information and it is their job to try their best to see the grey and the black and discount it.
The "top affiliate marketers" are in a constant war with Google (and Bing, etc, though far less so) to get away with whatever they can.
s I said before, and have said many times, I have no problem with rehashes that add value. I might find your tutorial on some esoteric subject to be exactly what I needed - even though I have read a dozen others on the same subject, something you said caused it to click.
It's the "Five Hot New .." posts that just clutter our world and it's the artificial promotion of that junk that adds even more clutter. I am completely in favor of any and all efforts to diminish the effectiveness of those "top affilliates".
Google's algorithm & any other search engine algorithm is yet to reach the ability to test text's effectiveness and quality. So its not the job ôf search engines but readers to respond to content. And this is how google improves search results. Machines will never able to figure out if people want those 'five new ding-dalt under 10 bucks'. Someone writes that piece because there is a need and they are responding to it or they want to write it cause they feel like posting it. In either case whether you or google hates that piece will not stop people from writing it. That is entirely personal.
So tell me, PCUnix, why we need yet another webpage on losing weight after 60, how to get better gas mileage or why I should buy an iPad. Aren't there tons of those out there already?
You are missing my points entirely. I don't know whether it's deliberate or you really didn't bother to read what I said.
NOTHING I post is a cookie cutter, me too, nothing but junk you can find somewhere else.
I explained the difference quite thoroughly, but I will repeat it here:
I still insist that yet another "Five Hot New Ding Bat Bolt Posts" that is nothing more than a rehash of information widely available elsewhere is not anything we need, so if Google or HP or whoever finds a way to diminish the ability to artificially promote such junk, I'm all for it.
I'm not against "Five Uses for Ding Bat Bolts You Never Thought Of". I'm not against "How I almost lost my arm because of defective Ding Bat Bolts" or "Inside A chinese Ding Bat Bolt Factory - shocking photos!"
If you search very long and hard in the depths of my main site, you can find some junk. I experimented with that kind of stuff for a very short period of time and stopped because it made me feel unclean. Nothing I write today falls into that category.
There is no reason (other than laziness) that you can't write about " "Five Hot New Ding Bat Bolts" and make it interesting, useful and unique. You CAN add value even to the most mundane subjects. The posts I object to don't even bother to try.
As someone who pays their rent with just shy of 200 Hubs and doesn't spend time on back linking, I have to disagree with you. That's been my MO for just over four years, and if you are a patient person who writes about things people want to read, it does work.
I agree. My best performing hubs (commercially) have been those that have seen ZERO backlinking.
I have tried to actively backlink a couple - and guess what - they went in complete doldrums.
Okay i stand corrected for my generalization. With factor of patience-my point is still the same because not all niches reward you if you are patient. Writing about say mysql without any promotion will not get any benefit(traffic). Old information in some niches is useless.
I have to possibly disagree with that a little too.
I have a few pages that reference sql. That little handfull has enjoyed over 20,000 page views since they were published - without ANY promotion in those cases.
Now, of course that isn't a humongous amount. But there aren't all that many people interested in sql and since that isn't normally anything I write about, there is even less interest in looking to me for information.
On other subjects, just as esoteric, I have single articles that get 5-10,000 page views very single month and have been doing so for years, without any backlinking, not even Twitter or Facebook.
Is it possible they could get 100,000 views a month if backlinked at SheToldme, SU, etc.? I doubt it. Like mysql, the subjects are too esoteric.
That's because you have no version specific info to attract. Tell me if you're getting 10k views to your Mysql version 2 pages in 2010. My point is about hype-specific sales.
I would presume that the number of searches for version specific MySQL info is pretty small to start with, especially after the version passes out of common use.
But I also presume that you have other reasons for writing such esoterica - an e-book on MySQL or consulting services to peddle. For such things, you don't need 10K views per month.
And your point stays valid to specific products which are hyped at certain period aswell eh?awesome.
If you are trying to express something, you'll need to be more specific, because I don't follow the irony I imagine is intended to be attached to "awesome".
Do you mean, for instance, that MySQL version 9.8 just came out and you have written a page that helps people understand its radical new features?
No, I do NOT think you need any excessive promotion to see that rise in SERP. If your site is known for SQL, and you wrote a useful post, it's going to get whatever traffic it deserves based on its value.
My point was about patience with SERP în all niches for which you answered already so i see no point being because you'll generalise it anyway. I'm going with my opinion- Hyped and seasonal niche products can't convert after that particular period of its hype-lifetime or upgradation. Try selling 2 year old product and prove it to me that patience applies to this area of marketing as well.(î'm not talking books like items).
I'm not sure what your point is. Selling outdated product is always going to be difficult.
I have that situation myself. In years past, I did a lot of SCO Unix consulting. They are pretty well gone now, but I still have hundreds of articles referencing relevant technical issues. They rank well, but the number of people in search of such pages is dwindling away rapidly.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Should I promote those pages? Heck no, I don't even want any SCO consulting work now. I'll take it out of kindness more than anything else, but I can't imagine why I'd want to try to drain the last drop of possible income from it. I moved on.. there's always something new.
I'm probably misunderstanding your point entirely, right?
Yes you missed it. I'll try to be more clear. Patience with SERP will never help with marketing all-types of niche products. You have patience with your position in SERP that affects sales till next product update? Patience with SERP will only help with informational articles or products which sell with brandname,author or trust.
But you and others here are saying that by genaralizing about every niche plus ignoring social media aspect of incoming links on your hubs. So i'll go with what you guys are saying-hub without backinks+patience==sales irrespective of niche.
Point 1 do nothing and Point 2 you can do a lot of promotion.lol.
I am still missing it, sorry.
Brand new iPad clone comes out next month. Makes Apple look like fools. Will be in Amazon next week but lucky you got a pre-release demo.
You are saying you need to promote the heck out of your hub about that now?
Or are you saying that when version two comes out and you have an inventory of version one to move, you need some help in the SERPS?
Sorry, I don't know if I am being unusually dumb to day or what, but I have not grokked you yet.
As i said it earlier you'll continue to generalize for all items in every niches with what you know for the sake of î-hate-it-hence-argue-for-the-sake-of-it. Rant on.
That's not my intent, but if that's how you want to leave it, fine. I think you are wrong, but as I still don't understand what you are actually getting at, I'm not entirely confident of that.
If i'm not wrong you have counter argument with almost everything that is related to social media & SEO, so does it matter if i'm wrong? Please no more attacks. Social media is BS. One should do nothing.
You think I'm attacking you?
I am simply trying to understand what you mean. If you don't like my opinions on spammy SEO techniques, fine. If you don't believe that you can make good money without those techniques, fine also, although I have to wonder how many of us have to say it before you will.
But never mind. Apparently it is too difficult to explain what you mean or I'm just too clueless to understand it.
I wonder if you really understand my position on social media. Probably not, based on your comment. But again, that must be my fault, so I'll try again:
Social media per se is great. I use FB and Twitter to keep up with friends and family - it's not BS at all. It is the ABUSE of social media, the link trading, the promotion of content only for SERP that I object to.
Oh, well. Let it go. You think I'm a hopeless fool. That's OK. Plenty of others agree with you
I don't usually go out of my way to do backlinking per se, nor do I "game" the search engines. And yet my blogs have hundreds of organic backlinks. If I am in a forum or on a blog and I happen to make a comment AND my page/hub is relevant, I will leave a link--but only if it's relevant.
For what it's worth, PCUnix, I agree with you on one point that you very clearly stated in this post: "If your site is known for..." There is a WORLD of difference between a full-blown blog/website and a lonely, single-page hub, just like there is a world of difference between having a site dedicated to "size 8 red sneakers" vs. "basketball shoes." A single-page hub is not in the position to build up a "reputation" for anything.
Just because someone is trying to get noticed by Google doesn't necessarily mean they're gaming the system. In many cases that I've seen, it's someone with really good content that SHOULD be noticed that's trying to be seen among all of the spammers and gamers.
I couldn't disagree with you more, Skyfire. I have several product hubs that I did absolutely no backlinking on, and they all sell several products each and every month. I just checked one of them and there are 2 backlinks, but I have NO idea where they came from--certainly not from me.
I disagree with that too, without a doubt.
Precisely 142 of my hubpages are yet to be backlinked by me, it is a task that I perform in retrospect. I am seeing sales from several of those hubs, in fact one is at the very top of Google.
If you hit the keyword right, and the bots like the look of your content, then there is every chance that you don't need to backlink at all.
I will say that as a rough general rule, those hubs which I do backlink will perform better in the long run. This generally relates to those which enter in at say number 11 or number 8, which subsequently - with the aid of backlinks - move from 11 to 8 or 8 to 5 etc.
Backlinking in moderation, and professionally, is without a doubt beneficial. It is no way essential.
A much greater tactic is to publish as frequently as possible, and backlink when you get a bit of spare time. Or in my case, when you cant concentrate on hubbing - I am in fact backlinking now.
Bookmarking revenue sharing sites are popping up a lot these days. If not us then someone else is going to bookmark our stuff and reap the adsense rewards. If not revenue sharing then atleast autoblogs or forum threads,answers like other sites will pass some links. Thats my theory.
Hubpages is not a blog so assuming that people will pass 150 links in 1 week îs huge mistake. 150 Links over period of 1 year is perfectly natural. But within a day, week or one month triggers a flag. Sorry for your automation tool.
I do the backlinking thing, but I'm careful not to do too many at a time, I always give backlinks to my most visited pages as this increases overall income and traffic. Backlinking when done right can yield quality results, but when done wrong, the result is you get labelled as a spammer and quite rightly so.
Backlinks are best served in small doses and over a longer time period, surely it's best to backlink to a new site every 3-4 days rather than all at once....Google keeps an eye on us, as do other companies on the Internet.
Funny isn't it? I started this thread as I just wanted to warn others that the hp idea of "excessive" linking may not be as excessive as you would think, and to work accordingly.
But excessive to those that write purely for the sheer joy of writing is at an even lower level it seems - I had no idea I was so evil!
I do work the system to a degree - but slowly. I am lazy and enjoy writing stuff more than rewriting it for others.
I shall shut up now!
Now I'm thoroughly confused
http://learningcenter.hubpages.com/4-4- … -off-site/
HP are saying that directing traffic, or funneling it, or ... or ... helping it to find your hubs is not beyond the realms of an honest days (online) work. Or their TOS.
Fact - if you do use the methods demonstrated, you won't be linking like a demon. Humanly it's impossible. Ezine articles take time, submitting them, making sure they meet the site's guidelines. Same as any other article directory. You could use InfoBarrels (e.g.) again, that would take time. I've done it all. It's all about *yuck yuck* work.
Like I said in my first reply in this thread - behaving in a sensible manner is the key.
HP is not saying you can't backlink. They're simply saying that mass backlinking sprees may well be noticed. If so, and deemed unfair (or 'blackhat'), then you're going to be admonished.
The reasoning here is that "excessive backlinks" is equivalent to "too many backlinks too quickly".
So, 150 backlinks in a week is bad.
But 150 backlinks in an year is acceptable.
Even if I have used the same backlink blasting automated tool? Both times?
You are missing the point. Anybody creating 150 backlinks is trying to game the system. I consider that dishonest, others here shrug and say "I have mouths to feed".
The point is not "acceptable". The point is "getting away with it".
150 links in how long? - I never said.
For a page with how many words and about what?
There are times when this kind of backlink profile would actually be very natural.
I really am trying to shut up now...
I did not miss the point. I asked a question.
I will really like someone to stand up and say - backlinks don't matter. Not at all.
One of the things that really bothers me is that the word "backlinks" is tossed around loosely.
Linking covers a lot of ground, but what we are talking about here is excessive, self created links to your own content for the purpose of manipulating SERP.
For example, if someone asks a question on a forum and I drop a link to my hub on that subject, was it because I wanted to help them or because I wanted the link juice? If it's the first reason, it's not likely I'll do that very many times and if I do, the action will probably occur over a long period of time. If I'm after juice, I might do it more often and less appropriately.
So, does excessive, self created backlinking work? If you get away with it, if the search engines think it is organic, then yes, of course it works.
No one will. Because they do matter. They're an intrinsic aspect of positioning, ranking and so on. Plus you have to factor in competitor age, content, their links and/or link strategy.
Backlinks ... natural ones, the ones that are supposed to happen, are the virtual world's version of word of mouth. They're not advertising so much as public recommendation/s.
But, for whatever reason, or quirk, or mythical conundrum, I do have some very well placed articles (not just on HP) that I haven't touched beyond the time I published them. Now, were online work as simple as that, (those of us that do take the time to add polish to our work, consider what we write and how we write it etc) then the likes of me and however many others would be in clover.
But we're not. Which begs the question ... why some and not others? Refer back to the OP's question
I maintain that backlinking is an important factor, and while it may be artificial, and I know PCUnix is against this, I would definitely suggest creating at least 2 backlinks for an article, preferably by creating related articles on other sites and linking back.
Backlinks are a ranking factor in Google, and a pretty big one. Even a little boost ccan help get your site noticed, and then organic links will come. Without some kind of jump start though, it may never happen.
You are putting words in my mouth.
As I have said many times, I often drop a link in Twitter or Facebook and I definitely cross-reference my articles when it is appropriate to do so.
What I am against is chicanery. Deliberate attempts to manipulate SERP. There is a big difference between what the "top affiliate marketers" do and that.
I know all this confuses the heck out of the newbies. It doesn't help when you say that I am "against" things I plainly am not.
In the light of an article published just yesterday what is the key, promoting the crap out of your personal sites that are linked to hubpages? This article is pretty astute. Seems that people who pay for services to get noticed have more success, and this article shows the disappointment in google allowing that process to continue.
http://www.sitepronews.com/2010/09/22/d … ke-a-fool/
That is the same song I have been singing since I saw all this start to happen in 2003.
Google's problem is that computers aren't as smart as people quite yet. They cannot determine crap with code as well as they would like to.
I KNOW they are working hard on this problem and it is my belief that they will eventually succeed and that today's "top affiliate marketers" will be nothing but a bad memory.
Most here will call that belief entirely naive and perhaps worse:-)
But see, the article says that the mere production of articles, over and over on the same subject endlessly is wrong too. The article mentioned that a person can't just have a really good website, but needs many because of this formula.
Well, I disagree a little, but it is hard to judge.
I have a monolithic site that does pretty well by all measurements, but since we don't know what would be if I had split it into multiple sites, who knows? I thought about doing that in years past, even did it once, but it was such a hassle I quickly gathered it all back into one again.
I dont think twitter or facebook would be included in a backlinking campaign, they are definitely in the realms of social marketing, not SEO. Since this is a discussion against SEO then I would say you are against backlinking, because backlinking in the form of SEO is artificially generating backlinks.
Using Backlinking in social marketing is a completely different game.
Well, again, we get into "what do you mean when you say backlink?".
I'm against gaming search engines. Period. Over and over again I go back to Googles's own very direct advice: "Before making any single decision, you should ask yourself the question: Is this going to be beneficial for my page's visitors?"
The HP article the OP referred to has a similar succinct sentence:
"There is an easy way to tell whether you’re sharing too many links: just ask yourself: “Am I doing this for backlinks?” If you are, STOP."
As a secondary thought, I am also opposed the kinds of vapid articles that need excessive promotion.
My opinions on these subjects have not been well received by those who create the bland junk that requires SEO manipulation. That isn't particularly surprising :-)
As long as your promotional activities are within the parameter of this one -- http://learningcenter.hubpages.com/a-gu … cklinking/ it should be good.
Patience and time is very important here, sometimes you want to make things go faster, some individuals are like that, they can't sit down and wait for things to happen, they make things happen, plus there are tools you can use, so they use it.
It all boils down to who owns this site, we may just have to follow their rules,(the HP rules) and not until you are caught or can get away with it even though your intention is related to time etc.
In the long run this site and the hubbers will benefit from high ranking in google.
It does get a little confusing. I still consider myself a newbie in that I still have a lot to learn
Whenever I publish a Hub There's a message at the top of the Hub from Hubpages, that says "You've published another Hub, now get the word out."
So here I am with a widget on my blog, I tell facebook I've got a Hub out, I post on Regage and xomba and shetoldme and a couple of forums where I'm occasionally active. I'm really not sure at what point am I "Getting the word out" and where am I being overly promotional.
For the record I have yet to be admonished but this thread is making me uneasy.
Don't be. Your way is fine. I've done it on occasion. Sometimes because I've felt the need to prop up a hub. Usually I do it when someone almost copies what I've written, similar URL, content etc.
Which is another aspect of online working that really isn't cricket.
I noted when I looked at Market Samurai that they recommended finding your competitors backlinks and linking in to the same - also re-writing others' material was heavily hinted at if my memory serves me.
Am I right in thinking it is not the backlink so much as that it is a backlink to a good site that has some content similarity with your stuff ??
There is nothing wrong with splashing a few appropriate backlinks, and neither will you suffer from this.
I maintain that giving your hubpage a couple of nice pings on the way out sees it perform a bit better.
Paul Edmondson himself has recommended giving a couple of backlinks on the way out of the door. If he recommends that, then that is good enough for me. This is his empire after all.
Wholesale industrial backlinking on a horrendous scale, such as that being talked about by the OP, is however inappropriate and potentially very damaging.
I will continue to tweet every hubpage, backlink at Xomba, backlink at Snipsly, SheToldMe, Redgage, and my personal blog. I will not be attempting any sort of large scale automation, in other words spamming.
It is not possible without automation software or some other dubious technique to 'spam' a site which directly invites tasteful backlinks. Each of the sites that I mention, with the exception of my personal blog, clearly invite you to submit bookmarks for your own content. They are each entwined in a healthy relationshipw with Google AdSense.
If Google had a problem with small scale self promotion such as this, the first sites to get a knock on the head would be these very sites. I can assure you that each are doing pretty damn well, and the PageRank of each is very healthy.
Thats all I have to add.
I think that is exactly the issue. There are people here who recommend going crazy with self-created links and when someone like me opposes the idea, people get confused and think I am talking about minor promotional efforts such as you describe.
As I keep saying over and over again I think Google's advice is the simplest and easiest:
"Before making any single decision, you should ask yourself the question: Is this going to be beneficial for my page's visitors?"
It really is that easy.
Pcunix, who exactly is suggesting that we go crazy with links? I am not doubting it, but perhaps if you call them out and post the hubs to which you refer... we can see for ourselves and make a judgement? If anybody is suggesting anything too extreme, then we could work as a community to draw the attention of the Hubpages staff? If there is a problem that exists, then why don't we take the steps to erradicate the problem?
I have seen one hub which made me shudder, then I lost it, presumably because it was deleted or unpublished.
I agree, but I'm not going to name names. It's all too easy to be coy about it anyway and say, "well, I certainly didn't mean for that to be interpreted as meaning anything more than a handful of useful links".
But it does make me realize that I need to be more careful on the other side of the argument. I'm going to go back through my hubs and look for places where it needs to be made clear that I am objecting to excessive self promotion.
If you read all the OP's posts, you'll see he didn't backlink on a horrendous scale - he didn't go out and get 150 backlinks all at once, they were spread over the whole life of the Hub. THAT'S what's got people worried.
Norah's post that the problem isn't the number of links, but "the way that links have been presented" doesn't really help. How do we know what to avoid?
For instance, one of the strategies used in the 60DC was to submit the RSS feed to multiple directories, which would create large numbers of "automated" backlinks. So is that OK or not?
And I'm sure we've all read the Hubs by Misha and Mark Knowles about the automated linking services they use. I suspect they'd regard 150 backlinks as chickenfeed! They use those services principally for their websites, but I know a lot of Hubbers read their Hubs as referring to HubPages.
Marisa, it has since been clarified by Norah Casey that the hub was NOT unpublished on the basis of the number of links. Therefore Misha & Co need not be worried.
Ryan, I edited my post after you posted. You'll note Norah said it was "the way that links have been presented". Until we know what that means, how do we know Misha & Co needn't be worried?
The problem is the abuse of other sites. In other words, spamming.
As the automated email users are sent should they have a hub moderated for this reason:
We do not moderate hubs simply for having backlinks, or for having a certain number of backlinks. It is the nature of the backlinks, ie, whether or not they were obtained responsibly, or at the expense of other sites.
We moderate only a handful of hubs for abuse of other sites, so very very few hubbers need to worry about this, and chances are, they're not in the forums anyway.
I'm pretty sure this thread has run its course, so I'm going to close it now. Hopefully that will also mean that people actually read this response as opposed to blowing past it.
I've only skimmed over this thread so apologies if anyone's brought this up before, but...
It's what popped up on my screen when I logged out a couple of days ago.
Message to Hubpages admin: if you want to avoid accusations or hypocrisy (or at best, your right hand not knowing what your left hand is doing), then PLEASE pull this ad from your site.
I have started seeing that ad too. In fact, it was on my hub about free backlinks
That is a Google Ad too, although that doesn't suprise me!
This ad can be seen everywhere on the site, even on hubs highly critical of any sort of baclinking.
Ayup. That stupid ad keeps coming up. I keep meaning to go block it, but I hate going down that road because it's just constant work.
But i think you misdirect the question.
Why does Google accept such advertising? Google disapproves of paid links, will penalize you if you do that, so why do they allow the ad?
Beats me. If you ever find out the answer, can you let us know? 'Cos it's doing my head in.
There is a free speech issue involved. It is free speech. It could destroy your website, but if you have doubts, go to google forums and read.
Any chance of saving me a half hour search and posting a link? Ta.
Here is one: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/AdSense?hl=en
Same reason Police are the ones who build/sell scanners for your car?
Or how anti-smoking ads are funded by Tobacco companies?
they allow it because it is revenue. Google Adwords is a business... it is one arm of many and operates independently.
We all can run businesses that conflict and this is exactly what Google is doing - running a business. I run a business, for example, that homes homeless people, but I still make a profit. Just because ethics conflict with business, doesnt mean that the business can not or will not operate. Money is a tool that makes the world go around.
Oxfam runs a conflicting business - for every pound that is donated, only 1p goes to the people that need it. All the rest goes to admin, management, expenses and advertising - however, at least some of the money goes to a good cause - better than none!
The point that I am making, business is conflicting - google Adwords needs to make money, even if it is on an ad about backlinking. It is about choice and free customer will but... as always, it is always 'buyer beware'.
If you buy this product, use it - you could get banned, but that isnt Adsense's problem now is it? They are just the medium for the ad!
I have learned many things here.
Google is the BOSS, website owners follow what they had to say, but you don't question them (ex. ads--Business is business it gets sleazy, ads pay no matter what is that ad), in turn those who publish through the websites earning from adsense have to follow what the website rules are, simple as that. We follow the rules of HP which randomly check overly promotional hubs.
And number two, google is not a person it can't read good content, that's why the title and keywords are important, they just pick on it, not the word per word content of your article. The algorithm changes in and out -- BIG Secret too.
I haven't read all the posts. I once had HP tell me one of my Hubs had excessive tags -- nothing illegal -- so I removed those that truly were the least relevant.
I have one Hub where I have 5 incoming links marked on the Hub -- and I did nothing to promote it which is nice. I've never used article spinning software but can they detect this somehow?
As my husband used to say: "My kids should never repeat what I do in their life, as I am a very good example of how you are not supposed to behave!"
This doesn't make sense at all.
First off, that video HubPages released about backlinking is rubbish. That lady was a snob and most of what she said will prevent you from earning any money on your hard work.
Sure, good hubs will get natural backlinks, but they need other backlinks first so the Hub can actually be seen in Google!
What is HP thinking? They're really going to unpublish Hubs with backlinks? Like the OP said, now all people have to do to mess with those they don't like is add backlinks to their Hubs.
This is seriously stupid. I can't believe how many people are actually condoning this.
So let me get this straight....
1. You are calling a Hubpages employee a snob for trying to help us?
2. You are suggesting that we express our disgust that a cheat has been brought to book?
Do you realise just how long it would take somebody to backlink each hub 150 times? I mean that is serious stuff. It takes a machine, some software, not pure graft.
Unless of course you wish to prove me wrong, in which case I look forward to you providing me with evidence of 2850 backlinks by this time next week.
YOU are seriously stupid.
1. Yes I'm calling her a snob and so did about 100 other people who I shared that video with. She didn't have all her facts straight and her tone of voice was condescending and snobby. Employee or not, she could have been nicer about it. People shouldn't feel like they're doing something wrong by adding backlinks. Auto-programs, obviously, are a different story.
2. I am expressing disgust that HP is pulling Hubs with "excessive" backlinks when that means ANYONE can mess with another person just by submitting their Hub to auto-pilot services.
Thanks for your maturity.
Ha, fine one to talk.
Well leave the site then, if the staff offend you so much. I am sure that they will miss your uber-productivity.
The OP clearly admitted that they had created around 150 backlinks themselves for that single hubpage. I fully support the removal of one of his hubs, as a lesson.
If they really wanted to be hardline they could have removed all of his hubs. It was a lesson, one that he has clearly now learnt. And let it be one for you too.
Why should we all suffer should this site recieve a smack from Google? We shouldn't.
Now run along and sulk about the tonne of somebodies voice One would think that they were addressing you directly.
Wow man you are showing your true colors here. Sorry for having a different opinion than the almighty RyanKett.
I always show my true colours, I am not ashamed of them.
I am defending individuals against your unfair criticism. Don't make me out to be the one in the wrong here, it is you who has publicly labelled somebody a snob on the basis of the sound of their voice; for - ultimately - just doing their job. That is probably about as shallow as you can get.
Feel free to start a thread criticising the tonne of my posts, and feel free to create an offensive descriptive. I currently have one very large temporarily swollen ear, perhaps you could call me Dumbo? or Big Ears? I also wear glasses, so perhaps Four Eyes? Go for it, I will call you Uber-Produktiv, you know... standard irony.
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to start a thread about you, champ. I'm sorry you disagree with me that she sounded like a snob. But she definitely did. I am not the only one who thought her tone of voice was condescending. It almost like she did it on purpose so I doubt she cares that I, and many other people, think she sounded like a snob.
You don't have to agree with me. We all hear things differently. Not a big deal. Good luck with your surgery. Sorry you took my post so personally.
That is a commonly expressed thought that is completely untrue.
If a new page is accessible through index links in its domain, Google and other search engines will crawl it. Google LIKES links from other sites, but doesn't need them.
Yes but you need backlinks to get your Hub ranked nicely on Google so it can be seen by searchers. Not all Hubs get 1st or 2nd page rankings right off the bat.
You can't get organic backlinks if nobody finds your article. That's all I'm saying.
Again, you are incorrect. I have dozens of highly ranked pages that never had the benefit of any artificial linking. They DO have backlinks - real organic backlinks created by real people who found the content valuable.
It seems it doesn't matter how many of us keep saying this, other people keep insisting it cannot be true.
You CAN make money without manipulation. I do, Relache does, lots of people do.
Well that's good that you have seen success with no backlinking (seriously not being sarcastic or rude) but the truth is not everyone can say the same thing. Some topics simply won't rank well without some help.
I agree that auto-programs are bad. My main issue lies in the fact that anyone can submit anyone else's URL to an auto-program and get them in trouble. And also that backlinking is being considered "bad". All of our competitors are backlinking and that's why they are at the top of Google for their search terms.
Google's algorithm is constantly changing, but one thing that will always be relevant is backlinks.
Google does not "punish" those who have "excessive" backlinks because then it would be abused by competitors. Google may "devalue" the links, but you will never be "punished" for them.
We talked about that at the beginning of this thread, but of course no one finding this now is going to bother to go back to READ
This thread is actually about HubPages dealing out the punishment. I agree (and said as much very early on here) that this is a dangerous action unless they have proof - Adsense or affiliate code, domain registration info, whatever - that the person whose hub was removed was actually the person who created the links. Without that proof, I could see such actions as being the object of a lawsuit under some circumstances.
I read that China wants to force user authentication. That's one way to stop backlink spammers
It seems we are basically on the same page then. No argument needed.
Oh, let's anyway
It would be interesting to know what HP's position on that part of it is. Are they doing the detective work themselves? Did Google tip them on this? How do they intend to deal with the potential of a competitor trying to poison a well?
And what of that competitor? What a risk to take, both in terms of increasing the exposure of the person they were trying to damage and of course the liability should they get caught at it. I would think that definitely would be actionable.
A year or so down the line it could mean that everyone who writes for money on HP will create multiple, secret IDs - and the only ID they'll ever take to the forums will be the one with 0 hubs in it.
If HP is investigating it and knows for a fact that the author is doing it, then good on them. However, I highly doubt it and suspect there is likely a code in their script to automatically separate Hubs with "excessive" backlinks. It would be extremely difficult, time-consuming and inefficient to do it by hand.
I just hope they realize the kinds of problems that are going to stem from this "punishment" of theirs.
Oh, of course by code. HP or Google, the trigger at least would have to be by code.
But what then? Say I'm the CEO here and I get informed that so and so's hub has a lot of links and is rising high in the serps. Presumably they have other hubs doing well also.
My tech geeks tell me the hubber has created spammy backlinks. Hmmm. The hub is making money. The other hubs they wrote are too. There is the possibility of being sued or of negative press. The hubber could get ticked off and leave. Other hubbers could do the same.
This is NOT something I would do without a lot of thinking and discussion. I assume that the actual managers here are very aware of all of that and that this was NOT done casually or without very good reason.
exactly - what hubpages is doing is opening up the possiblity that I can get any hubpage out of my way as a competitor - just by building some excessive ilinks to it!
That is really the issue. Hubbers in competitive markets can scrub the market by blasting links to everyone there. I am not going to say it would happen but you have to realize that that potential exists.
This is a very long thread...and trying to read it all the way through with all its twists, turns and tangents make it almost impossible to sift through.
Now, I may be late to the this party but understand that enforcing a policy like this (while it is obviously their right- Their site-their rules) will create a lot of casualties, especially in markets that are competitive.
There is absolutely no way around it.
I think those videos that Simone has done for the learning center are top notch and they explain things in a clear and coherent manner.
I wish I could make useful informative videos like that....one day!
I've always had you down as the next Sir David Attenborough mate, he has got years on you fella, plenty of time to catch up.... just so long as you don't partake too frequently in that standard northern diet of a large donar kebab and five cans of cheap beer every night
I think Skyfire is clear:
If a product or info byte has a limited window of time to be beneficial for visitors/earnings then any suggestions that rely on patience or inaction will be ineffective
If the goal of economic benefit via promoting a new upcoming high comp product is outside of your moral grounds then replace product with ticket sales for upcoming limited seating AIDS benefit where all proceeds go to charity that happens to fall on the same date and same city as another concert whose proceeds do not go to charity.
Either way - info relating to the event or product has to be released quickly, efficiently and at as many locations as possible, this is a required promotional effort, it happens to coincide with seo benefits but would be necessary without them.
..this should not and cannot be perverted to be a recommendation of automated backlinks/spamming ...merely points out the need to have a broad influence on the net that can be accessed via many searchers, ways of searching and can be seen by those with the most influence
Press releases and advertising are the normal methods of promoting those things, are they not?
So, if you aren't suggesting automated backlinks, what are you suggesting?
That's what is not clear to me. We seem to be all agreed that automated techniques are bad. But it isn't the automation that is bad - that's ludicrous. It's the AMOUNT that is the problem.
You can send out tens of thousands of press releases and put out an Adwords bid that guarantees you top spot - far more results than could possibly come from a small number of self created backlinks.
So I remain unclear as to exactly what you are saying someone with that need should do. I say they should use press releases and advertising and any linking that is beneficial to readers. I don't think they should be trying to manipulate SERP and I don't see how they CAN anyway if the time factor is so limited.
Moderation for abusive spamming is based on the way that links have been presented, not by the number of links. This is a rare violation. We carefully review every Hub flagged for abuse before moderating. If you have any questions or concerns about your own backlinking practices, please feel free to contact us.
Too bad no one seems to be reading this post. From HubPages admin no less.
Groundhog Day indeed...
Why is this issue a secret ? Those of us who are starting out are being advised on the one hand to make loads of backlinks, Hubpages apparently advertises a site that sell hundreds of ready made backlinks -
A definitive description of what is right and wrong would save some of us half a lifetime of doing what we are advised and then having to go back and do it all again differently ? ?
I have to wonder if hubpages really thought this through....
Google doesn't penalize folks for links for a reason- Competitors can wipe someone off the map with it.
Think of it this way. You and I are in the same market. You are doing very well for yourself. I want a bigger piece. So, knowing that hubpages may delete my competitor's hub based on his backlink profile, I simply hurl a ton of junk backlinks at his page.....
.....competition goes away....
We've discussed all that already.
You might want to read through the whole thread to get caught up.
This is a long thread and possibly hard to read all the way through, but your argument actually has been addressed numerous times here already.
ETA: Sorry Anthony, my post crossed yours.
Oh, well, reading is a lost art, isn't it?
In long Forum threads, it's always Ground Hog Day
What an education reading all that is being said regarding backlinking here. Since I never understood how to backlink or even what backlinking really means, I guess I am safe with HubPages. I do appreciate everyone of you for giving of your time to explain this backlinking business. Thank You So Much, fellow hubbers.
I know backlinking is a chore i can definitely do without. Its cumbersome and time consuming, and i'd rather limit it to 2 or 3 per hub MAX. And even that is a pain in my neck.
I'd rather just keep writing. If some of the great hubbers like Relache etc. dont bother much about it, why should i?
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