Info Barrel vs. HubPages(?) - An Analysis of Business Models

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x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years ago
Hello,

My name is Howie.

I have done a tremendous amount of research regarding various offerings and elements of functionality/business models of the leading Web 2.0 revenue sharing websites. I've watched growth trends very closely since this industry really began to boom, and I've paid close attention to specific decisions of ownership, as they relate to increasing offerings (revenue share arrangement, TOS/editorial guideline alterations over the years, etc) and ensuring a viable quality control process that will safeguard authority in Google for years to come (thus, safeguarding and growing writer's earnings).

Of the many sites I have researched very extensively are: Squidoo, eHow, Firehow, Suite 101, various Wiki sites (don't typically have revenue share integrated, however, they do have elements of Web 2.0 integrated), Xomba, Helium, Bukisa, WiseGeek, YouSayToo, ArticleIncome, MyTripleDub, Info Barrel, and, of course, HubPages. (just to name a few)

I have taken particular note of how each one of these sites have specifically evolved themselves and their business models in order to best serve their writers, while also addressing issues that they perceive to/hope will gain them the authority and favor in Google that will translate to even greater company (and writer) revenue.

Of the 20+ sites I have researched, HubPages and Info Barrel consistently emerge at the top of my list. I do write quite frequently for Info Barrel...in fact, I now have over 300 articles written, with many of them being in excess of 1,000-2,000 words long.

I have considered writing substantially for HubPages.

One given is the fact that, as a new site, Info Barrel has a clear lag in search engine authority that HubPages' writers can take advantage of. On the same token, this same newness of platform, provides writers with the opportunity to get in on the 'ground floor' and stake claim to hot titles (before the are taken) while the platform itself is currently engaging in exponential growth.

I'm not beginning this thread to 'sell' anyone on Info Barrel. As a newly registered user here, I would like others to 'sell' me on HubPages. I won't claim to know everything about HubPages....I've spent countless hours reading threads here.

I've been contemplating investing a significant amount of time here....but, I would like to know WHY should I?....I'd be very much interested to hear stories of everyone's HubPages' stories, in terms of experiences and revenues earned. Because Web 2.0 sites can have a variety of uses way beyond revenue share, I'd also be interested in hearing what kind of ways you have utilized this platform in order to benefit you and your online business.

I would like to fully understand what attracts YOU to this site, and what you feel that it has to offer that other sites don't. Do you forsee a bright future for HubPages, or do you think otherwise? How would you advise a groomed writer who is seriously contemplating investing a significant amount of time and energy into this platform?

Thank you!
Howie
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  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm here for the money. HP's model of 60% of the impressions are ours and 40% are theirs allows us free reign with Amazon, eBay, Kontera and AdSense to do as we see fit during our impressions, and also to track results. I haven't found a model even close to that anywhere else.
  
  They're not going anywhere in the foreseeable future.
  
  Stop talking and start writing.
  
  EDITED TO ADD: And what Ryan said...
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I can write
  
  While I have found superior revenue share models elsewhere, it isn't really as simple as saying "this site offers 100% revenue share, therefore, it MUST be the best". Revenue share must always be thought of in context of growth and search engine authority.
  
  For example, a site could offer writers a 100% revenue share, however it may be a new (low PR and authority) website, and writer's articles would hardly earn anything no matter how skilled in SEO they are. On the inverse, a site could offer writers 30% of the revenue impressions, yet be such a high authority site that it would actually stand to be more beneficial than the offerings of a site with 100% revenue share.
  
  In context of current authority, I do think that HubPages certainly has one of the best revenue share arrangements, however, there are very specific things I would personally implement into this site (if I owned it) in order to drastically increase writer's incentivization and potential to earn.
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You should note that the revenue share can be as high as 70% or 80% if you use certain strategies.
  
  Call it 'incentives'. The referral system basically.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Coupled with their inherent search engine authority and transparency, I do believe that this is perhaps one of the best arrangements online today. With Squidoo's convoluted (whether intentionally or unintentionally) tiered payment revenue scheme, I do believe that many people write there and don't even entirely know (or understand) what they are receiving in return for their content. While I appreciate the genius behind Seth Godin, I do think his platform is inherently flawed....and there are numerous elements I would inject, take away, or flat-out change, in order to make it a better platform.
  
  I do know that one can have their ID put into 10% of their referral's ad impressions, but, how would 80% revenue share be achieved here?
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What I meant to say I suppose is that the Hubpages share in revenue can be as low as 20% in certain circumstances.
  
  Oh dear, I am confusing myself. If I send somebody through a tracker to this site, or even from a hubpage to another hubpages, I take 10% of the impressions from their surfing activities for a set period of time (cant remember how long).
  
  If they visit the site via my tracker and sign up as my referral, before they leave to another hubpage, I take 10% of all impressions to their hubs.
  
  Now, if you visit this site via Mr X's tracker and then sign up after reading one of his hubpages, before then heading over to Mr Z's profile and reading 19 of his hubpages, the site is losing 10% of your page views to Mr Z's referrer (say Mr Y), as well as 10% to Mr X. In this scenario Hubpages would take just 20% of the 20 page impressions. In other words, just 4 of them.
  
  That is why there is little scope for an increase in the revenue share model. They will actually only be getting 30% of impressions for many if not most hubpages (I have 165 referrals alone), whilst in reality it can be even lower than this.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Welcome to HubPages!

An interesting post. Thank you for sharing.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One looming concern of mine here, that I hope can be addressed, is the trend I have witnessed with regards to high ranking/PR websites loosing authority in Google for one reason or another. I saw such happenings occur with a platform called Squidoo which, even though it has bounced back, was at one time 'slapped' by Google.
  
  Does anyone know what steps/controls, if any, have been taken by HubPages in order to ensure that they aren't slapped by Google? It is a fear of mine that great effort will be expended to provide content and, earnings will be immediately affected if HubPages falls out of favor with Google.
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  
  Squidoo became a haven for spammers, as they have no limits imposed on affiliate links.
  
  Hubpages has measures in place to prevent this, including a limit on the number of affiliate links and number of external links to the same page.
  
  It has also begun taken measures against people who inappropriately promote their articles, e.g. automated link posters, spamming, etc. It does so by unpublishing offending hubs.
  
  Probably more too, but that was a major problem with Squidoo.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  These are certainly good controls to have.
  
  When Web 2.0 sites get very large, with potentially thousands of new pieces of content submitted daily, one overriding concern of mine is moreso in line with a viable (human) editorial quality control process. While a small team would be required to cut costs to the company, the catch-22 is that having a staff or human editors, hand edit each article upon submission, would cost ALOT of money....
  
  Few sites have been able to actually implement a viable quality control process, with human editors, that will help to safeguard the quality of their database.
  
  I do realize that HubPages is very large right now....and, I wouldn't be surprised if they had over 200,000 writers and thousands of new pieces of content submitted daily. What keeps all these writers from submitting occasional pieces of garbage? What you have mentioned are great starts....but, not just with HubPages, I'm concerned that as these sites generally grow, they naturally get overwhelmed and loose the ability to safeguard the quality of their own databases (outside of incurring thousands of extra dollars just to hire an editorial staff)
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  sunforgedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Christeneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes they do. No more than 9 outbound links to the same domain.
  (Unless you're a Giant, but then you've already proven you're not a spammer.)
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ryankettposted 13 years ago
I just write here because:

a) I can make decent money.
b) If it all goes wrong I still own, and thus can move, my content.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ownership and treatment of content is a VERY important element that I look at when reviewing various sites' editorial guidelines and TOS. If writers DO, in fact, retain ownership of their articles here, that is a big thumbs-up for HubPages.
  
  If others are comfortable with me asking, do people fair decently here in terms of revenue? If so...and, you are comfortable, could rough estimates be given?
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It varies a lot. Its not a quick earner, it does in fact require a lot of hard work, a lot of learning, and a lot of patience.
  
  But I earnt around $1490 in September, it increases every month. I hope to break $2000 a month for Nov and Dec during the busy Xmas period.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your response, Ryan!
  
  These earnings are certainly impressive. One thing I do very much appreciate about HubPages is the fact that they are transparent with their revenue share arrangement. While other sites pull the wool over writer's with mysterious earnings, and secret algorithms, I do think it's comforting to go to a site and know right away that Google Adsense/affiliate networks will be placed in a 60%/40% rotation consistently for life.
  
  Unfortunately, some of the leading Web 2.0 sites have established their business models around refusing to disclose how exactly revenue is distributed, while Google requires nothing of the sort of Adsense publishers.
  .
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lrohnerposted 13 years ago
Earnings here are all over the board--pretty much in line with the authors' SEO knowledge and practices. You'll find folks who make AdSense payout once a year or less, and then others (Nelle Hoxie, Misha, RyanKett and Relache, to name a few) who make substantial amounts from HP. I know that Ryan has disclosed his HP earnings in the past. I think Sunforged and/or Darkside may have as well. Take a look through their hubs and you should find them.
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Amie Warrenposted 13 years ago
My first and foremost reason for writing on HubPages is ownership of content and I hope that never changes. I have friends who have written for sites that changed their TOU and took away ownership, and it was very nasty. Mahalo was one of those sites.

HubPages is what it has always been, according to my research. They have improved it, but never changed the basic vision of the site. That speaks volumes in my opinion.

InfoBarrel came into being when eHow was getting into removing articles and writers started leaving. Thus, InfoBarrel got the dregs from eHow at first. When eHowers were not accepted to Demand Studios, they went largely to InfoBarrel and Bukisa. Some came here. Some were already writing for sites like Suite101 and Associated Content.

I think that if you had written those articles for HubPages, you would have a lot better income right now.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm really not looking to sway people one way or the other regarding where they publish their content. In my mind, Web 2.0 sites shouldn't be used in isolation, but rather as a piece of a much larger online strategy. I do know that people use HubPages in isolation...and that's fine...however, just because I use one site doesn't mean I wont use another site whether as the 'main money maker' site or as a backlinking site, or a combination of both.
  
  By virtue of its infancy, Info Barrel does have a lower search engine authority, which, in relation to your post, does probably mean that I earn less there than I could be earning here with the same content. On the other hand, Web 2.0 sites (with legitimate business models, with owners that KNOW what they are doing) are notorious for experiencing exponential growth. Info Barrel is experiencing that now.
  
  I don't mean to come across as pitting one site against the other. Honestly, because of the transparency both sites show, I do favor them both above just about every other site out there. I HAVE read quite a bit about people joining HubPages, only to post garbage hubs and leave. Is this controlled for in any way? A viable quality control process is what has me concerned....
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
HP has significant anti-spam measures in place, including automated flags, user and staff moderation and a "hub hopping" tool that helps the community identify low quality content.

I have actually had this exact same conversation in reverse with you at the IB forums once.

Stand alone - HP is by far a stronger earning platform, but it is wise to consider creating a symbiotic relationship between your content at various locations.

You should really jump in, write 40-50 Hubs and just watch how they perform. (at least, thats what I did with IB)
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travelespressoposted 13 years ago
Aside from quality control, revenue sharing and content ownership which are all extremely important factors, Hub Pages is a dynamic platform. The team introduce enhancements to benefit the writer and the possibility of increasing revenue.

It's also a very easy site to use.
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x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years ago
I have another general question to ask.

I see HubPages has 187,000+ registered members now. For the few Web 2.0 sites that have great offerings and business models, this kind of growth and membership isn't uncommon.

Unfortunately, it is also very common for only a small % of those registered users to actually contribute consistently.

What do you think could be done in order to motivate and incentivize more writers to CONSISTENTLY contribute?
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Never_Forgetposted 13 years ago
Nice to see you on HP, Howie. I think this is a great site for the most part. They have a cool spam-fighting feature called Hub Hopping. It allows the whole community to clean HubPages up, one article at a time.

I do make more money per article at InfoBarrel though. Most of my IB articles outrank my hubs on the same topic, too. Just take like 20 or so of your high earners and re-write them for HubPages, then you can get a decent idea of whether or not more would be worth it. I did that and even with only having my highest performing articles over here I am still making more per article per month on IB, and that average includes a ton of articles that don't earn at all. I know of a few InfoBarreler's who have seen opposite results though.
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You haven't been here long enough to guage the success of those Hubpages, many of mine never reach their true potential for 6 months or more. If you have any doubt about this then peruse the below graph:
  
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You could be right (and I hope you are lol). Why does it take so long for HubPages articles to earn when compared to IB though? I would have thought it would be vice-versa since IB has a lower PR.
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea, but my Hubpages definitely perform better with age. Hubpages is set up to pass PageRank to the individual hubs, but these all start with PR0 of course.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For as much as I love IB, there are just so many things that I am sitting on the edge of my seat, salivating, just waiting to see.....because accurate comparisons really can't be made until they have comparable PR and search engine authority....
  
  And, it's difficult to say whether one site is better than another site just simply by what one person does or doesn't earn. There is one person on Info Barrel who, I guarantee, his earnings there wipe the floor with 95%+ of the writer's earnings here. These results aren't the 'norm' though. Even though they are a great testament to his ability (ESPECIALLY since they are had on a PR4 site), every site has their special cases when it comes to earners....it demands on the amount of time invested, and, of course, the SEO/research behind what they write.
  
  One thing is for sure, IB is growing exponentially for a reason. I think both sites can certainly be leveraged quite well in conjunction....I'm not sure that a wise writer would use any one site just in isolation. Throw in the element of your own blog/online real estate and you can monetize traffic every which way....such the traffic in with high authority Web 2.0 sites, monetize the article, send them to your website, monetize that...etc....
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think you would be making a wise choice by getting a nice little library of articles over here. I still have so many ideas for IB that I am anxious to write but I plan to have at least 100 hubs within the next 4 months or so. I think "that one guy" from IB ;-) is seeing some pretty good success with his Hubs.
  
  ps
  
  yea this is travis :-)
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The very interesting thing is that that "one guy on IB" is doing it all exclusively with Adsense. While the opportunity exists, he hasn't even fully leveraged Amazon, or other affiliate networks, in his articles. So, what he is earning is a result of solely Google Adsense rev share.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yea...that's another thing I like a lot about HubPages. Their Amazon units are much better than InfoBarrels. That being said, when IB 2.0 comes out later this month, I am pretty sure the Amazon stuff will all be upgraded to be similar to HP's.
  
  I still need to go to Amazon and create a separate ID for my Hubs, but I am pretty sure most of my sales last month came from here. I'm only assuming because of how many more I can use here and how much more relevant they are than IB's.
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  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Every site has those. If I tripled my September earnings I would still be nowhere near the highest earner.
  
  The common trait shared by the highest earners here, and there, and everywhere is hard work and a hell of a lot of knowledge.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is this Travis?
  
  ....Had I had only the option to write for two websites, amongst the 50+ other similar Web 2.0 sites out there, I would be perfectly content with using HubPages and Info Barrel in conjunction. I've written ALOT for Squidoo, but, if I had to pick only two sites to host all my content, I'd strip my content off of Squidoo in a heartbeat.
  
  I think that both sites are great, and are similar in that they shine in areas like transparency (not important to some, but very important to me)....and general interaction and treatment of the community.
  
  I do think that even the highest ranked sites are always learning, and evolving is necessary as Google continually evolves. What could be acceptable one day may actually penalize a site the next day. One thing I always go back to, though, is the willingness and desire of ownership to employ control in order to safeguard the quality of their own databases. If HubPages can do that....even if it means hiring more staff (if they need to), I think that would ultimately serve this site very will in the long run.
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jaymelee23posted 13 years ago
Yes, I heard about what happened with others and Mahalo. It was terrible what they did to their writers. I've read a couple of articles and blogs that there is a few pending lawsuits against them. It will be interesting to see what the outcomes are.

Back to the original topic, I've tried a lot of other sites: Infobarrel, Squidoo, Xomba, eHow, etc. Hubpages is my favorite place. I signed up almost a year ago but never contributed until this summer. I regret that I focused too much on eHow now that they closed the WCP program to the public. I can write for eHow through Demand Studios and I occasionally do but I don't care for how they do business. They own so many sites and they backlink from their other sites to their money making pages. I see it all the time, especially on Essortment.com (they own it). I can't believe that Google allows that. I've seen videos (Youtube) where Matt Cutts talks about how Google people despise sites for doing those practices. I'm pretty sure that you know what I'm talking about Solxdier (about the negatives of eHow). I believe I read some of your concerns about eHow on other sites too. The moral of the story when it comes to writing sites, you just have to go along with it and hope they don't screw their writers over. If you are seriously worried about what can happen then start your own site and have full control. I don't feel that uncertainty that I did with eHow on Hubpages. I'm here to stay. I plan on trying Suite101 out in the future though. I got accepted about a month ago but haven't started yet. I've never really heard anything negative about them either.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Outside of having a tremendous amount of capital to invest, even with all the knowledge and ideas in the world, it would be very difficult for most people to architect their own Web 2.0 site unless they dedicated them entirely to the development and promotion of it for years (before they even began to saw the fruits of their labors). The truth is, even though I know exactly how I would execute it, this industry is just so ruthlessly competitive....plus, sites are established already. In order to gain traction for one's site, they'd essentially have to convince a boat load of writers to write consistently, for months, with next to no return.
  
  Building a site like that isn't easy. Even if you offered 100% revenue share in the very beginning, the inexistent search engine authority would make it hardly even worth it for writers to submit content to your site. It CAN be done....but, it would be very difficult for just anyone to do. What I've seen occur in the past is that a site launches by offering writers 100% revenue share, and then they proceed to gradually decrease what they offer writers....essentially building the site off their writers backs, and gradually taking away what is being given to them.
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  netlexisposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Howie, there is no one perfect site to write for. It all depends on the writer and what he or she is comfortable with. I don't believe anyone here should have to convince you to try HubPages. That should be sometime you decide after you've fully researched it. There's lots of information in the forums and a lot of people who have shared their knowledge. If you decide to give it a try, you'll be able to analysis it against the other sites you write for, like InfoBarrel. It's either going to work for you or not. If it doesn't then move on until you find the site or sites that work for you.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, however, I do think that concerns regarding quality control are completely legitimate....especially since some of the top ranked sites in the world have fallen victim to some kind of punishment by Google for this very issue. Where the proper controls weren't in place, and platforms succumbed to exponential (and, in many ways, uncontrolled) growth, sites have either:
  
  1) Been punished by Google.
  2) Have conducted massive, site wide, quality control article sweeps....after the fact...with little to no recognition of what the individual writer would be experiencing. (in terms of deleted high earning articles, etc) While necessary, article sweeps are what occur when a company doesn't have viable quality control process in place. I was just worried that, by virtue of its size and growth, the same could one day happen to IB....
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
Travis with the skateboarding articles?
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed :-) Couldn't you tell by my avatar? I look just like Fry...LOL /sarcasm
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  bayouladyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi travis/never_forget, I would have never guessed it. You seem so much older on IB, that I pictured you as a 40 something, and here is this young guy with his honey..... (bayoulady on INFOBARREL)
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Whoa how did I miss this post? What's up bayoulady! That's funny you thought I was 40 on InfoBarrel :-P
  
  At least I only sound 40 and not look it :-D
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Never_Forgetposted 13 years ago
You said:
"the same could one day happen to IB...."

Do you mean HP?
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C.V.Rajanposted 13 years ago
Hi Howie,

I really appreciate your thoughtful, "no nonsense" posts here.

I have written and have been writing in a couple of sites including Helium, AC, Suite101, Brighthub and of course Hubpages.

From what I have observed,

- Every site boasts of a few very successful members who make a lot of money from that site. I don't question them. I believe them. But what I found amusing was that such members normally claim that "no other site can deliver so much good". Perhaps what clicks to one does not workout to another.

- I feel sticking to one site for long and producing "quality+quantity" concentrated in that site does bring success.

- The problem in this ever fluid world is that a successful business of today gets beaten by another tomorrow.

- I used to write in one less known competitor of ehow, viz "howtodothings.com". That site, for me, was the best one both from pages views and Google share earnings. But that site stopped sharing ad revenue all of a sudden in a stealthy way. I had to withdraw all my articles from there and posted them elsewhere.

- But none of those "best viewed" articles could ever gain back any readership after posting in any other site! That's a pitiable reality. Why? I don't really know.

- Before AC stopped paying to non-US writers (virtually), I had posted several "non-exclusive" articles there (originals were in Helium). But the surprise was that some of those repeat publications in AC were getting a lot more page views than the original articles in Helium! Why? I don't know.

- I took out those articles from AC and posted in Hubpages. They could hardly generate any page views now. Why? I don't understand.

So I can only say that there are no hard and fast rules. I believe if one site is quire reliable over a period of time, if they are constantly evolving and adopting, if they seem to be honest to writers, then we can stick to the site.

Only if we pump in quality and quantity (with quantity having a larger importance!) in that site and be patient, we can gain revenue in the long run.

That way, even though helium is not web2 based, I am finding it to be good for me currently. I had stuck to that site for the past 2 and half years; it is constantly evolving; I remained there through thick and thin. Now I am touching 500 articles there. The revenue is quite reasonable for me now. What will happen after 2/3 years? I don't know! What if I had posted all those articles in Hubpages? Would I have earned better? May or may not be.I really don't know!

CV
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STAFF
Paul Edmondsonposted 13 years ago
We would love to hear your suggestions for improving.
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  Susana Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  This is one thing I love about HP. The staff team are all ears when it comes to user ideas for improvement and I've seen them take up so many of the new features suggested. Sometimes it's just a little tweak, other times it's something big. There is a spirit of we're in this together to make HP the best content site on the web - I've not felt that in other venues.
  
  One suggestion I have is to hire a couple of hub moderators to go through and weed out the junk. I know a lot of us do it for free anyway when we have the time because we value the site, but I'm sure a lot of it gets missed.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Paul,
  
  I think that incentivization of quality content is paramount...unfortunately, it is easier said than done, as even some of the top ranked sites have run into issues with regards to quality control and have had to take drastic measures in order to correct the problem and 'right the ship' long after the ship had launched. For the greater good of the site, I saw alot of writers get really hurt on other platforms....with limited resources and manpower, after their article databases had grown so much, it just wasn't feasibly possible to give all writers a "heads-up" warning, or an opportunity to correct content, before articles were deleted in mass.
  
  I do think HubPages has grow quite impressively, although I do think quality assurance should be a perpetual concern (and, I'm not even 100% sure where HubPages stands...I know it's had its fair share of spammers. With a Web 2.0 site, I do think its important to leverage the community to provide that quality assurance....and, I do also think that quality assurance should somehow be tied into a word count incentivization system.
  
  While it's true that 1,000+ word article can be garbage or quality, just as much as shorter articles/hubs can present the same predicament, I do think that Google generally takes an initial liking to longer articles because of their potential to provide the most detailed and thorough information for readers, while attacking multiple keywords. Of course, someone can produce a 1,000+ word that is pure rubbish, but, generally, I'd like to think that a majority of the time these articles will provide quite a substantial amount of quality content for the reader. Of course, accuracy and safety underlying the instruction given is an entire different subject all together....
  
  ...I can only say these things based on my own 'testing' and 'research'. I write. I write ALOT....and, I have found that many of my 1,000+ word articles tend to get more views while my shorter articles don't tend to get as many views. Of course, further tested would need to be done, but, in my little sphere of the world with a little over 300 articles published, longer articles have performed really quite well for me.
  
  This leads me to believe that a viable consideration may be to incentivize writers through the submission of longer articles or hubs. (I'm not entirely sure if this is even being done yet on HubPages....if not, I do think it could be effective and provide the motivation and impetus for continual high quality submissions).
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Infobarrel is a joke - 2 of my articles never made it there because of editorial control but now earning me fine on HP(payment gateway hub) and Squidoo(payment processing issues lens). Infobarrel has strict grammar barrier(which is going to hurt multi-lingual, non-native english writers) plus IB hates affiliate marketers as well. I wonder why demand studio is not buying IB if there is so much editorial control.

Info barrel has cluttered interface for writers in comparison to squidoo & HP. Amazon ads in sidebar gives 0% or random conversion. Who wants to wait for their new update and then again get article denied by editor ? Not me.

If you're producing say 20-50+ articles in single niche then it is better for you to get your own site. Then use these content factories for linkback to your sites and for additional sales articles (amazon/ebay/affiliate). I prefer not to remain loyal to any site from now on- it gets me nowhere. I like squidoo and HP because staff in these sites are not chasing me off every article for my grammar/typos and affiliate links.

HP only needs to clear some facebook/twitter clutter from sidebar & content. Hubs will give more CT if that happens.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are missing the point of InfoBarrel.
  
  Their strict editorial process and limits on affiliate links are what is going to set them apart from other rev share sites because InfoBarrel is going to have a very high TrustRank, which is inevitably going to be held in much higher regards than PageRank in the Google SERPs.
  
  InfoBarrel is making a smart move with their guidelines. It has them poised to surpass HP, eHow and eZine within the next 2 or 3 years. They are really just setting a precedent for other rev share sites and effectively raising the bar. Google is going to end up loving IB (they already do to a surprising extent) and it's all going to go back to their editorial and affiliate link guidelines. Sites with human editors and limited affiliate links make Google very, very happy.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My point is that if they don't like my article with affiliate links or with typos, fair enough i'm off to another place where someone will accept me. On hubpages 90+ score hubs do have typos & grammar mistakes plus affiliate links and staff is not going to unpublish because of that. On that point, squidoo and hubpages offers more freedom than IB. It may be a smart move for IB but for non-native english writers it is slap in the face. I can understand people need to improve on that area but this doesn't happen overnight. It takes months for that and other factors like sales page, gripping content and linking etc factors are also need to be addressed so this is like mindgame when it comes content production. I don't care for google's opinion when it comes to sales pages because in reality even 40-50 targeted visitors are enough for sales pages where 1k/2k random is useless. I'm into this for business and not for praising any company with which i'm sharing my revenue already.
  
  IB is good for people with writers ego or for those who are really chasing google's opinion about content factories. But I'll stick with moderate level of moderation and freedom. I have nothing against IB even if they surpassed ehow, hubpages or squidoo.
  
  Limited ? How many links are allowed by the way ? And what are the conversion rates for linkshare, shareasale, cj links on IB ? How many people are successfully using IB for affiliate product promotions ?
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your posts are pretty judgemental and negative for someone who posted THIS when someone was talking about HubPages the same way you are about InfoBarrel:
  
  Darren, Reason you call hubpages as joke is simple, you didn’t understand the revenue sharing procedure to begin with. Also you’re not interested in posting original content. You thought that place as article directory to post your spun/scraper article and get backlink,am i right ? These days there is trend of wanna-be Internet marketers to do something like that. Drop backlinks and some plastered spun article content and expect some tolerance from others to keep that crap alive. And that way one should retain self respect and spit venom against others ? Bravo.If you’ve enough content in your writing then i doubt you’ll waste spitting venom against any content community not just hubpages. For people like you, today you got hubpages to cry for,tomorrow there will be some another one. When money and skill talks,that person rarely spit venom like this and starts blame game on others. And to clear things up i’m not into hubpages staff, moreover i’ve worst experience with content communities like helium, today, xomba etc. I don’t spit venom against them cause of the experience i’ve got and if i’ve to criticize someone i can do that offline as well so stop assuming that people can’t talk or sort things offline. Mr. Geek ?
  
  Please don't talk trash about a site you know nothing about, especially if you're going to be a hypocrite about it. You didn't like it when Darren did it to HubPages, so why is it okay for you to do about InfoBarrel? Calling IB a place for writers with egos is insulting and completely uncalled for.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Spam on one site" and "affiliate marketing" differs and that reflects in my post. Unlike you i'm not here to preach IB or any other site. You're free to attack as usual if you disagree.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Attack you? Attack you like usual? What!? You are the one who's first post in this thread was a bunch of negative bashing...and then you continue with it when I politely disagree and try to provide you with some correct information. I'm not here to preach InfoBarrel either...except for in this thread because that is the TOPIC at hand.
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bayouladyposted 13 years ago
Hi xxsolxierxx from Infobarrel. I am also on Infobarrel and Hubpages. I like each for diffferent reasons, so I'm putting my eggs in two baskets. Well, maybe three, because I also am putting a few full articles on snipsley. PS..weird. I had no idea that never_forget was good ole Travis on IB!LOL!
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey bayoulady,
  
  I don't mean to outright 'bash' other sites, but, as I had mentioned earlier in this thread, IMHO, I do believe your approach is potentially the best.....I really value the transparency of both sites. It really means alot to me that both are upfront about how they operate and do business.
  
  When I say I've researched alot of these companies very thoroughly, I have even gone to the extent of calling and emailing ownership. When my time invested is at stake, I cut to the chase, although in a tactful and professional manner.
  
  Unless someone can show me otherwise, there is a site called Suite101 who, while I was researching it, didn't even reveal to writers how much they earn on their hard work and submitted content. (this may not be the case now...I don't know). My emails and calls fell on deaf ears....that was one reason I didn't write for them. I would ask questions regarding their allocation of revenue share, their treatment of content, and whether they had a viable quality control process that translated to their site hopefully not getting a "Squidoo" slap or something like that a long time down the road.
  
  I do think that sites in this industry DO evolve, which is why writers have to really look out for themselves. This is one major reason why, even though I can have loyalty to a site, I also appreciate if they respect me enough to allow me to maintain 100% ownership over the content I submit.
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SiddSinghposted 13 years ago
I have put up a few articles on IB recently, and the results have been mixed so far. The number of views is not much, but the backlinks seem to have some value. Whatever Hub I have linked from IB has invariably gained traffic and shown improvement in SERPs.

The other advantage is the tremendous boost new articles on IB get - at least two of my articles managed Page 1 on Google in the first two days, though they later settled on page 4 or 5.

The Amazon interface is not good, but let's wait for the improved version.

The editorial control is OK, though I sometimes see articles that should otherwise have been rejected (I compare them to my article that was rejected - I posted it on HP and it is a fair money-maker, with decent traffic). But fair enough - at least they will not get swamped by spam and sub-standard writing.

So yes, it is an overall good site to put your content on!
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
It's not insulting when they(editors) unpublish the post for grammar & typos and explicitly replying with that message ? You have no idea about my case before you even thinking of attacking.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Please enough with the drama. I'm not ATTACKING you. Wow. Attacking. lol. I'm so fierce!!
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So i was the one to make drama by relating my own post from pedantic blog here ? Jeez, some people make their opinion so negative that they even gather source from wherever possible to reply and still deny it wasn't attack. i was hypocrite ? yeah sure. Preach on.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was just an awesome coincidence. I found that Pendantic HubPages blog from a forum post by RyanKett from today. I happened to be reading through it and saw your post and thought it was a bit odd that you were seemingly doing the opposite of what you were preaching in that post. That wasn't an attack. It was a way to put your post in perspective. Your first post in this thread was super negative and you kept getting more negative even when I politely corrected you. So I don't see how I attacked you. Regardless of the whole "attacking" nonsense, I have said my piece and don't have any desire to continue this argument.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was not that negative as you think of. The same content is accepted on other site and earning me money. So you can guess the reaction with that reply. As i'm unware of affiliate marketing on IB, i asked you about that so do you think that it was still negative ? jeez. You gathered resources from other sites just for the sake of replying me as you found my post in this thread negative and that wasn't attack ? In no way that could be attempt to put post in perspective.
  
  Anyawy,still i'm going with my second post in this thread if you want to reply- what are the conversion rates as per your experience in IB ? So that i can improve myself and post there.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I already explained why I posted your Pendantic reply but as far as conversion rates go...I know there are quite a lot of people on IB who are affiliate marketers but I am not into that personally. I'm an AdSense Guy. I do pretty well with Amazon though, compared to most others on IB.
  
  There are a number of writers on IB who use it mainly for affiliate links. One guy has over 1000 articles and likes InfoBarrel significantly more than eZine. In fact he said eZine was a huge waste of his time and he is the only person on IB right now with over 1000 articles, so my guess is he is seeing some good success over there.
  
  Another guy doesn't really do affiliate linking but he always links up to his website and has close to 500 articles. He is a lawyer from California and I have to assume he is seeing some good success because he keeps adding more and more articles every single day.
  
  One of the more popular writers has been seeing some sales from either Clickbank or CommissionJunction (I don't remember which one though).
  
  The last guy I want to mention has a couple hundred articles and his own blog that's all about making money on InfoBarrel. But he makes most of his money from Amazon sales. He's the only one I know of who uses IB primarily for Amazon affiliate sales.
  
  IB recently moved the signature boxes to the top of the article so it's always visible. This is has caused a lot of people to start adding affiliate links and the ones who already were are now seeing much higher conversions.
  
  The admins at IB are also seriously considering integrating CommissionJunction banners and links into their interface when IB 2.0 comes out. The only reason they considered this is because of the success some of the more vocal members are seeing with affiliate marketing.
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  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Skyfire, I rarely disagree with you, but I do have to on this point. If someone doesn't have a good grasp of the language, has ongoing grammar issues or doesn't bother to run their articles through a basic spell-checker, they shouldn't be in the business of writing.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do accept my mistakes with that. But in general your point is valid only if that hub & lens fails to earn money and generate traffic. But this is not the case, so your point is moot. Besides there are many writers with less grasp on language & grammar yet making money with affiliate marketing. So why should i stay back ?
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  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't mean you specifically, Skyfire. I was really talking more in general. I'm not gonna go all PCUnix on you or anything, but just because they make money doesn't make it right. I actually commend IB for having those controls and standards in place.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I LOL'ed at your 3rd sentence...excellent reference haha
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lrohner i do understand your point when it comes to sites like ehow, IB etc for their standards. I don't feel to drag this but in tech/design niche you can still get results with sales copies even if it contains typo/grammar because people are looking for product reviews and not to rate the article/author. I have my results in these niches so that's just my opinion. I didn't mean "just because they're doing it" but "if they can do it like this then by improving myself i can do a lot better".
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know if you've ever read up on LSA or LSI but in a few years Google is going to have this stuff mastered. With Latent Semantic Analysis, Google will be able to tell if an article has typos, spam or irrelevant filler content and will rank it accordingly. I think IB is preparing for this. eHow started preparing for it too by getting rid of WCP and only accepting editor-reviewed content. I know Google is just one of many players in the game, but they are the no doubt the biggest and the highest priority to please. When they master LSA, only the highest quality content will be seen at the top of their search results.
  
  While I do make a good monthly income from InfoBarrel right now, the site is moreless an "investment" rather than a "make money now" site. I think that is why people should use both HubPages and InfoBarrel. HubPages is here, but InfoBarrel is the future.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah, heard about it from one SEOmoz member. I don't know what will happen to SE after that change. I'll improve myself in mean time before it hits me lol.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've been telling people to make at least some investment into IB since around August 2009. This doesn't mean that people have to pick up and close shop on HubPages altogether...in fact, I think both sites can be used in conjunction.
  
  Securing those hot titles now will pay dividends in the long run. Unfortunately, even with exponential growth, few will even touch the site until it becomes PR7. Many write 3 articles, don't earn immediately, and claim that you can't earn anything there. I didn't invest in Google. I wish I would have. Very seldom do opportunities like this occur in the online world....plug the site into quantcast.com and you'll see the tremendous mistake people are making but not adding it to their online arsenal. It WILL be a Top-100 Alexa website.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Since you read our book, Travis, you've been mentioning alot about LSI and LSA. Any review in the works? lol....We have a lonely Warrior forum thread that would love a post from you....
  
  About the 'future'. With the release of IB 2.0, the articles that writers have currently written will revert to the new platform interface. With (what I hear) a pushed up header (driving ads higher up), and alterations in the monetization framework, I'm 110% confident that writer's earnings will go up substantially. Ryan and Kevin KNOW what they are doing.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Howie, I haven't visited the HubPages forums in well over a week and didn't see this post until now. I will stop by the Warrior Forums very soon :-)
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No problem at all, Travis! (and, after re-reading what I wrote, I'm sorry if I came off like a demanding jerk...lol)
  
  Because the thread is so buried probably 30-50 pages back, it may be easiest to find it by GOOGLE'ing something like "generous fast growing website squidoo" or "squidoo ehow fast growing"....
  
  The research we did, and undeniable growth trends, really justified our approach....
  
  I look forward to contributing quite a bit of content to HubPages, as well! (It's all a matter of just finding the time now)
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
This is interesting. One question though, how many links to same domain are allowed ? I mean if you're writing sales article on multiple products in same niche then there are chances of more than 2 links from same affiliate network. So just curious about that.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The rules are:
  
  No call-to-action links in the article body (i.e. click here for more information)
  
  You can have 2 contextual links in the article body (i.e. Some people think MayoClinic is the best medical website)
  
  You can have 2 links in the signature, contextual or call-to-action it's up to you.
  
  No external links in the first paragraph
  
  Links to the same domain are okay as long as 1 is in the article and 1 is in the sig. But you can link to 4 different pages from the same domain if you want. (hope that makes sense, hard to explain)
  
  So you can have a total of 4 links in the article.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks a lot for this reply. Keeping our earlier clash aside, i apologize if anything was negative. Once again, thanks.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Same here, and no problem :-D
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Travis,
  
  While some IM'ers swear by 'call-to-actions', and won't even consider touching a site like Info Barrel because they don't allow them, I personally don't think it matters if people do it right. Even without call-to-actions, have you still seen a decent amount of click-thrus for your links (amazon affiliations, etc?)....
  
  Personally, I think it has MORE potential than even an established site like Ezine Articles (who don't even share a dime of revenue with writers...)
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I was getting Amazon sales before IB added the actual ad unit, and so was blogger, so I would say that yea contextual links are still very profitable.
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jcmayer777posted 13 years ago
I wish I would have found this earlier - what a nice, lively discussion.

I do really, really well on Info Barrel. I hear people say things (not so much here, but in general) that you cannot earn money there. That's just plain wrong. I have maybe 350 articles, with about 200-250 actually optimized and written solely for money and I make about $1,000 in Adsense per month.

I do well with HubPages, but not as well as I do with Info Barrel. If I were to jump up and talk about how you cannot earn on Hp, it would be ridiculous.

On sites like eHow and HubPages, there is so much authority built in that you really don't need to worry quite as much about strong SEO as you do with a site like Info Barrel.

Writing for smaller sites is very different. If done right, you can outrank a big site. I have articles on theinfomine.com (alexa score 229,000) and Info Barrel that outrank Hubpages and eHow articles. It can be done.

I love the upside of Info Barrel. Yeah, I may come off like a homer since I wrote an eBook for the site, but I really, really love it. The admins/owners are active and helpful. They offer a great opportunity to learn and earn. The online forum community is super helpful, too. I would actually suggest the Info Barrel community forum for anyone that needs help. YOu will get help from the writers.

I have not been active with the HubPages community, so I cannot comment on how helpful it is. Please don't take it wrong.

I really think both sites deserve a look. If you aren't earning on one site or the other, alter your methods. Both offer a great chance to earn. The real key with online earning, in my opinion, is to think about what works today and what will work TOMORROW. Thinking only about right here, right now, will cost you tons of money in the long haul.

Wow. I thought Howie was long winded. Look at me. Best of luck to all writers on both sites.
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jcmayer777posted 13 years ago
Not sure if anyone really cares, but....

I made $51.44 on Info Barrel in AdSense yesterday alone. You can earn money there if you know strong SEO, especially on-page methods.
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brettbposted 13 years ago
My InfoBarrels are mostly rubbish, despite many of them being virtual rewrites of my best performing Hubs. Something's not quite right with InfoBarrel. I wish they would fix the Analytics AdSense code so I could compare CPMs.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is your Info Barrel username? Is it the same as here?
  
  The very fact that you call your articles "rubbish" could be exactly why they aren't earning very much. Not to sound like a jerk, but for someone who has repeatedly alluded to Info Barrel being a waste of time ("something's not quite right", as well as posts you've made there and Warrior Forum), your earnings on HubPages aren't exactly the most impressive either.
  
  You released a product for HubPages that essentially mirrors our Info Barrel product (a 6 book course that took us 5+ months to write, governed by very extensive testing and research), and your earnings on a PR7 site don't even approach what our earnings are on a PR4 site, EXCLUSIVELY with only the use of Adsense.
  
  Jcmayer, as he mentioned above, does currently in excess of $50 there consistently each day, STRICTLY from adsense revenue share. Had he integrated affiliate links, etc, I bet he'd be doing in excess of $100+/day in entirely passive income. And....Info Barrel hasn't even released it's new redesigned site quite yet....I anticipate that his earnings per day, strictly from Adsense, could reach in excess of $75-$100/daily just from the platform changes their ownership is making.
  
  Again, not to sound like a jerk, but had you been as skilled as your book sales page would imply, you SHOULD be clearing a bit more than you claim.
  
  Money can certainly be made on HubPages. It is one of few platforms, based on my extensive research, that I really really like: in terms of functionality, management, offerings, responsiveness, community, etc. Our results, on a PR4 site, however, do indicate that, for many reasons, I anticipate he and I will both be earning in excess of $3,000-$5,000 monthly when Info Barrel is more evenly ranked.
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  Never_Forgetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not an IB problem with the Analytics. I couldn't see my HubPages earnings in Analytics for about 6 months. I still can't see Snipsly's. It's a problem with Google.
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Hovalisposted 13 years ago
This thread is really interesting. I've heard about infobarrel and went over for a look after reading this thread. It does look like it has terrific potential, and hopefully is in for the long haul. Given what I've read here, I will add it to the shortlist. It seems that having knowledge of how to write really good adsense articles is a necessity, though, if you are to earn at all. That is what is stopping me at the moment, I am not so good at that!
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x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years ago
Is anyone here using Market Samurai when it comes to conducting your own market/keyword research?

...I would HIGHLY recommend it...

I do some very thorough research, and have managed to get one of my articles to almost 13,000+ views....and, quite a few to over 5,000+ and 1,000+ views on Info Barrel....

The interesting thing is that, IMHO, this is really quite impressive for a PR4 site.....I would highly recommend using Market Samurai....
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
daily?
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  daily? (?) Do I get those views daily? or....do I use Market Samurai daily? (wasn't quite sure what you were asking....)
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
views..
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol.....those are accumulated over a few months. On a PR4 site, 12,000+ views accumulated, over that time, isn't too shabby. Because of HubPages' search engine authority, those same articles, I know, probably could have gained thousands of additional views if published here. I'm really not going to move my articles at this time, though, since Info Barrel is poised to become a Top-100 Alexa property, with an up to 90% revenue share...
  
  Are you receiving thousands of views, to individual hubs here, daily?
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have almost 400 articles (most are 1,000+ words) posted on a variety of Web 2.0 sites.....Info Barrel is just one of them....
  
  ....if you are receiving several thousand views a day, here at HubPages, I may have to consider investing a significant amount of time contributing content here....hm....
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
I don't 100's of hubs. Well I do. I mean one's that earn. I also have only mild daily views across them, in comparison to others. I'd do the math, meaning %'s next to hubbers that earn more yet have thousands of hit per day, if I could work it out. Probably sunforged could work it out I reckon in comparison I hold up quite well.

I will earn around $550 this month. Not a huge amount but based on my traffic, that's pretty good. My time on-site is nothing to go by either. I didn't actually know what the site was about for some time. And it was only in April of this year that I bothered tackling Amazon.

So saying that Hubpages is worth investing time in. I also expect what I earn to keep increasing - even if I never wrote another hub.
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x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years ago
Is anyone here really getting several thousand views, per day, to a single article/hub?
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
Yes. Quite a few. They ought to tell you that though, it's my place to start outing and/or surmising. I know of a few that will get in a day what I get in a month, and then some.

EDIT: I meant to all their hubs, not just one. Though it's likely that several thousand views a day to one hub for the lucky few is highly likely.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's certainly possible, especially with a high PR site like HubPages, however, it would either require a hint of luck, or some hardcore keyword research to pull off....
  
  Several thousand views, per day, to a single hub, would be quite difficult....I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has managed to do this....this is quite a feet....
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  frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe so. But the secret sauce appears to be related to writing a hub that's for a topic that receives hundreds of thousands of searches per month. Not impossible and not terribly difficult. Having researched in and among, there are quite a few keyords/phrases out there that are highly searched for with almost no competition.
  
  Hopefully someone may come along that has done exactly that. I'm not one of them. Yet
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  Susana Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  As the wise Froggy says there are some incredibly high traffic phrases out there with little competition. Check out hubber Misha and his "Google Keyword Tool Redefined" hub - that was an real inspiration for me in terms of learning how to find these golden phrases.
  
  My highest traffic hub gets around 1500 a day, so not quite into the several 1000's, but not bad either
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Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago
The thing is, you won't know how many hits you can get until you write a hub.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  While there is an element of luck involved, the proper keyword research can bring about articles that greatly attract organic search engine traffic. Long before even writing an article/hub, there is quite a bit of data that you can digest, in order to give you a rough estimate, with the proper backlinking, of how many visitors you can gain. I would highly recommend, before you even write a hub, analyzing your competition.....
  
  If a site/article, that is targeting the same keywords you are, has tons of high quality backlinks, it 'may' be in your best monetary interest to divert your efforts elsewhere....
  
  Granted, HubPages has the added advantage of having an inherent search engine authority that has been developed by years of collective effort establishing their database of articles. Writer's articles will naturally rank higher simply because they publish on HubPages....
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Hauntyposted 13 years ago
I'm not sure of the average lifespan of x3x soldiers, but I think UW was referring to the possibility that if you spend 2 + months researching, targeting, analyzing, forum-discussing each individual hub idea before you actually published, you might be well into your 90's before you have enough hubs written to start earning relatively well on HubPages. Inherent search engine authority or not.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure that I'd spend THAT long conducting research.....
  
  While alot of people will disagree, I've found that longer articles/hubs tend to attract a significant amount of search engine traffic...simply because they tend to naturally integrate long tail keywords that are picked up on by the search engines....
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  Hauntyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In the HubCamp videos, they say the optimal hub length is between 250 to 1000 words, whereas in the the Flagship Hubs Program participants were required to write at least 1500 word long hubs. I'm fairly puzzled as to what length is optimal in terms of conversions. Any suggestions?
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  Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think the answer is simple. HubPages doesn't want to frighten off members by saying you must write 1,500 words. They know that anything over about 400 words can do fairly well. However, if you write a Flagship Hub they pay for it upfront - so for that program, they insist on what they believe is the optimum length.
  
  Having said that, Sunforged has said that a number of interlinked short Hubs can do just as well as one long Hub.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Marisa,
  
  Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "flagship hub"?...
  
  I agree with you about saying to people that they MUST write 1,500+ words....it can be a real turn-off. I don't see that HubPages is doing this, but, perhaps there is a way that they could incentivize longer articles, somehow?
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sord87posted 13 years ago
Welcome to Hubpages my Infobarrel friend,you already a top writer in Infobarrell,Do you intend to score highest too here?You are always welcome!
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
Haunty that's something that would be better clarified. Most of mine are lengthy. Some are in excess of 1000's of words. They do better, more so when in a competative niche.

I rarely do anything under the 700 mark. I feel that more content (well written that is ) is far better.
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Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago
Most of my hubs are from 500 - 700 words. Of course, I don't make as much as some here do and if my hubs were longer I'm sure the score would be higher. Of course, my best performing hub is 1348 words.
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CYBERSUPEposted 13 years ago
Thanks but NO THANKS!
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  errr....what is your post in response to?
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jcmayer777posted 13 years ago
I'm so impressed by the conversation going here. I wish I would have been more involved in the HP community from the start.

I've noticed that many of my long articles perform better than shorter ones on Info Barrel and a few other sites. With long articles, you tend to naturally have additional long tail keywords, many of which you may not be intentionally be targeting, that get traffic hits. This can really help, especially with smaller sites.

On larger sites like HubPages you won't "need" articles quite as long. On HP, my articles are all about 400-500 words. My earnings here are decent with them.

One thing I notice here on HubPages is that articles seem to take a bit longer to mature. I know this is normal on most sites, but it just seems longer here. Once they get there though, it's generally worth the wait.

Oh, one other thing. I wouldn't fall into the trap of simply rewording articles and posting them on another site and drawing conclusions that way. That can work in niches with little competition, but in anything competitive, it may or may not work. I could point to articles on Info Barrel that I re-wrote here that aren't doing as well or vise versa. You could post similar articles, all with similar keyword density/word count/targeted keywords/etc on 20 sites of various size and some would do well, while other would flop. It wouldn't always be the better PR/Alexa site that won. Fact is, there's still a lot of unknown variables with Google and other search engines. The thought that a large site with good PR/Alexa will automatically outrank anohter is just plain wrong.

Again, a good discussion. I am impressed by the community here. I wish I would have been more active.
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  daybreakposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like jc, I too wish I had been more active on HP before now. A few years back, I tried Squidoo and Hubpages about the same time. I made the choice to focus on Squidoo which has certainly been a good thing as I have over 400 lenses, some of which are important sources of income.
  
  Now I am ready to diversify my content. By the way, I did try Infobarrel but so far am not as encouraged there. HP just keeps coming up over and over again in almost any discussion of revenue sharing sites.
  
  Luckily I found this thread and the learning center early on and things are starting to look up. I have made a few very simple hubs but the results were very encouraging.
  
  I have decided to put my nose to the grindstone, learn as much as I can and to start churning out a series of simple but informative hubs. I will try to make the forums a regular stop during this process.
  
  Thanks to everyone that has shared information here.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Daybreak,
  
  Like you, I got my start writing for Web 2.0 revenue sharing sites at Squidoo (not HubPages, however, I really wish I would have begun storing up content, allowing my hubs to mature, and interacting with the community here a LONG time ago...)
  
  I currently have about 80 Squidoo lenses, all at varying stages of completion.....I have probably 20-30 very solid and detailed lenses. Because of Squidoo's inherent incentivization of updated content, based on their perception of Google favor and authority, many have fallen into the trap of writing lenses that don't lend themselves to expansion or updating. While I love Squidoo (and the marketing genius behind Seth Godin), and have shifted my usage of them a bit towards backlinking (instead of a main money making site), there are some inherent flaws and criticisms that I have of their platform.
  
  As of just a few weeks ago, they did introduce an integrated way of incentivizing members, to make valuable actions, based on a points system. I think that the evolution of these platforms can be seen in their desire to now incentivize positive user interactions and actions (like writing longer articles, commenting others articles, etc...). This effectively addressed one criticism I had of them.
  
  While they have lenses that explain the revenue share arrangement, I can guarantee that many people who register there probably couldn't explain how exactly it works. I think their revenue sharing arrangement is a bit 'complex'....plus, I think it also lends to people 'giving up' easily, especially when they see their own lensrank fluctuate by thousands of places each day that they don't update a lens. Great debate could be had over whether this is valuable or not....I think making lensrank a focus can tend to exhaust people......
  
  Personally, I think a more simple payment arrangement, that escalates in conjunction with a very transparent point system, would be the best way to go.... (ex: you start out with, say 60% revenue share, and your share increases based on actions that are tied to a point scale...)....lol....I could go on and on, but I think I'll stop now....
  
  I like what I see here at HubPages, and I REALLY value the transparency behind their platform. Many people don't seem to care, however, I have a real ax to grind with sites that don't share how they distribute revenue (while Google has nothing in their TOS that forbids them from doing so)....it just lends to too many shady possibilities (not distributing revenue equally, etc...)
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  daybreakposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I too see trouble coming for the Squidoo community that relates to the lensrank issue. That situation was part of what drew me here.
  
  I mostly continue working hard on Squidoo because of Seth's and the site's reputation.
  
  In other words I think in time Squidoo will address lensrank and payment complexity issue (at least partially) as it is in their best interest to do so.
  
  They do have a good track record for seeing flaws and solving them....eventually.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  daybreak,
  
  How do you think lensrank and the payment complexity issue could be best addressed by Squidoo management? Don't mean to put you on the spot...just thought this may be able to stimulate some good discussion.....
  
  With or without monetary figures, how do your earnings there compare to your earnings here?
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  daybreakposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps a better system over at Squidoo might be to edit the setup so that payments are more directly related to performance.
  
  I like the simplicity of HP and knowing I get paid directly for the work accomplished.
  
  As for income, there is no comparision. I had a mostly dormant account here and have just begun building hubs.
  
  Over at Squidoo many of my projects have matured and now produce income. Although I don't agree 100% with Squidoo's payment system, most of my income there comes from the tier payments.
  
  For projects like hubs or lenses, I try to think long term, like months or more before expecting income.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't mean to turn this thread into a full-on bash against Squidoo, however, I tend to agree with your points here, daybreak. I got my start writing content online with Squidoo, and, for introducing me to Web 2.0 sites, I can't thank them enough. I still think they have a great community, and have really gone a long way to communicate with and encourage contributors.
  
  As the perpetual critique that I am, I also really love delving into respective site's TOS/editorial guidelines, as well as, the elements of functionality that differentiate them (good and bad) from their 'competition'. I do think that Squidoo's lensrank system needs a complete gutting....I understand it's purpose behind inherently trying to incentivize continually updated content, however, sometimes I question just how valuable 'updated' content really is to Google. On similar platforms, I've written 1,000-2,000+ word articles in one sitting, thrown a few quality backlinks their way, and have just allowed them to sit and mature, and they have done quite well, in the views and earnings department.
  
  One thing about these Web 2.0 sites is that they are dynamic, and (MUST) be forever changing, in order to continually strike a balance between what online surfers are searching for, and what they perceive as valuable to Google. I do think that Squidoo's system was necessary early on, however, with the increase in membership and content, I do believe that their lensrank system actually now serves as a bit more of a detractor and de-motivator from continually incentivizing users to provide a high quantity of high quality content.
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
Flagship Hub is a now defunct side program that paid an upfront and bonus fee in addition to impression share. It is often cited as an example of what Hubs would consider the best quality hub.

details can be discovered via the search function above ^
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting concept.
  
  I see that they are no longer accepting applicants, however, is the program still active and being utilized by those who began doing it (before they stopped accepting applicants)? Was the problem that few people contributed the high quality they were looking for here, so they just essentially abolished the program?
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
i would guess, they just no longer need to offer that carrot. They just get the high quality content anyway.

and its completely defunct, I was accepted into the program when I first started here- so i hope they havent been secretly continuing to run it!
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MyWebsposted 13 years ago
When I first came here I read about Flagship hubs via HP's article about it. Then one of Mark Knowles's hubs also said the same things about Flagship hubs and about how he got to page one on Google. Reading his How I got my hub to be on Google's first page really helped me to get off to a good start here. That was the first hub I ever commented on.

If anyone has never read that hub of his they really should!

So from the start its been my goal to create flagship hubs even though the program is no longer in place. I have not always adhered to those guidelines 100%, but by mostly following it has proven to be a very good choice. I doubt I have more than one hub thats under 1,000 words. Most are 1,500 - 2,000 words or even more.

If HP considers this to be the best approach then why shouldn't I aim at least that high too? Now to try and make up for 4 months of being away from HP.

I'm off to read Mark's hub again to refresh my memory.
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Hauntyposted 13 years ago
Thank you frog, UW, Marisa. I understand that the most favorable length for most writers is somewhere in the range of 600 - 800 and that 1000+ or even 1500+ is what HP might really want.

I've just looked at capstone content standards and it's a minimum of 300 words and a minimum of 500 words of original content that is required there. This suggests to me that shorter interlinked hubs can do just as well, as evidenced in sunforged's experience.

I take it that the capstone program is still running since no indication to the contrary is given on it's page. Anyway, do you think it's worthwhile giving away the rights to so much of your content for the amount they offer?
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
I'm unsure about the giving away of rights aspect Haunty. As far as I'm aware, everything written on Hubpages remains 100% yours.

Having never written a Capstone series, I haven't tyested the waters. I know of a few hubbers that have made use of the Capstone method, Darkside being one. He has written two I believe.

I'm going to take a look at what the Capstone hubs expectations are

EDIT: read through. You do indeed surrender the rights. And Darkside has published three Capstone series.

Regarding signing your rights away, I suppose it's a personal choice. For my part, as I have no intention of leaving the site and can't think of a future reason to do so, it wouldn't bother me.
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Hauntyposted 13 years ago
Darkside has published three capstones? Wow! He likes projects. I only new his Roman Empire one.

As for your opinion about rights, we share it. I know of no place that offers better tools and opportunities for writers / online marketers out-of-the-box than HubPages does. They deserve writers' confidence.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly like what I'm finding on HubPages, Haunty. What are some of your favorite tools/opportunities on HubPages?
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  Hauntyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not surprised you're asking this question, because most of these tools, such as the Title Tuner, the Link Suggestion Tool, Broken Links, Traffic Sources, URL Trackers, come into play once you have written hubs.
  
  But then there are the Bookmarks page, the Hub Hopper, the Ideabank, the Learning Center, etc. You can find most in one place in a console at the top of a big blank page that you can access by clicking 'my account'.
  
  My favourite tool is the HubTool that allows for quick and easy creation of lenses.
  
  You have done extensive research on HubPages, so there is nothing new outside of what you already know that I could tell you, Howie.
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Singular Investorposted 13 years ago
x3x - you ask about how many page views you can get a day here on HP - you should read Misha's hubs about how well he does - I'm surprised no-one has mentioned him, he seems to be one of the big hitters on HP
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Off to check 'him' (i'm assuming 'he's' a "him"...lol) out....
  
  If anyone here is getting several thousand views, to a single hub, that is really quite impressive....even several hundred would be great....
  
  Dependent upon how a Hub is structured, written, and laid out, just the traffic from a single hub could correlate into great daily earnings....
  
  Writing content online can be a bit 'hit-or-miss', however, I believe there are certainly ways, through research, to decrease your effort, and maximize time, traffic, and, of course, earnings.
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  MyWebsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Since you have lowered your bar to several hundred I will respond. I have one hub that is averaging 500-600 views weekdays and it drops on weekends due to demographics I believe. Over the last 30 days it has about 15,000 views. Almost 60,000 views since I wrote it 9 months ago.
  
  For its main keywords its #2 on Google.com. #1 on Yahoo, Bing, google.co.uk , Google.it , google.ca google.in with the rest of the Google ccTLD's mostly being #2's of the ones I could think to check. Beating out some major web sites too.
  
  I expect if and when I hit #1 on Google.com, which is about the only search engine advancement left, to be closer to 1,000 views daily.
  
  If you look at the HP stats page you will see that only 493 out of 1,019,599 published hubs have received over 10,000 views in the last 30 days.
  
  It would be interesting if they would show the number of hubs receiving 30k+ per month. I like to try and target 1k views per day as that seems to be a good number of views imo. I'm sure it wouldn't be many at all that get this though...
  
  So far I only have one hub that gets this kind of traffic of my 18 total hubs. If the rest did this good I'd really be a happy camper.
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  Susana Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Check out Misha's hub, "Google Keyword Tool Redefined", it's a must read - defnitely made a light bulb come on in my head anyway. He was recently featured in the hubpages blog for his $100 per day hub (note the singular).
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sound_foundationposted 13 years ago
Thanks Howie, for opening this new dialogue. Like JC, I regret not paying much attention to HP's Forum, sooner. I appreciate the responses that everyone has left. It has inspired me to get off my butt and write some more hubs. Good to see Travis behaving over here, too! haha...
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x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years ago
If you all don't mind, I have a question/observation that I believe could stimulate a bit of discussion...

In fact, this is a HUGE issue, however, it seems to get very little attention....

Why do so many people register for Web 2.0 sites, yet very few contribute anything of value?

Right now, this is what I see:

HubPages: 180,000+ registered users.
Squidoo: over 1,000,000+ users registered on its forum alone....
Info Barrel: Although I don't have an exact number, I do recall that their registered membership is pushing 20,000-30,000 members....

...etc....

Yet, of this membership (without any exact figures or statistics), I'd register a guess that even 10% of those people being consistent contributors is unlikely. Based on activity in forums, and articles written, I'd have to think that its probably less than 1% of those registered users that supply almost 100% of the conversation and content.

Why is this?....but, more importantly, what can be done to remedy it?

Do people REALLY just join, submit one article, have it not earn hundreds overnight, and just completely leave only to never to return? ....What can HubPages (or any other site) do to address this occurrence? Thoughts?
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  daybreakposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I suspect there are a variety of reasons for this. A lot of people try several tools and never come back if their first experience is negative.
  
  Others are spammers and just want a single backlink.
  
  I have tried a lot of sites and it often takes something unique to or a good recommendation from trusted peers to motivate me to keep returning.
  
  In many cases, if a site interface is not user-friendly, it sends people running (myself included).
  
  I recently joined some other sites that are similar to hubpages, infobarrel and squidoo, but found their systems to be problematic and abandoned those accounts.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How many new registered members do you all think HubPages gains per day? week? month?
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CYBERSUPEposted 13 years ago
The information on here is awesome. Makes me feel proud to be a Hubber on HubPages. Thanks fellow hubbers for telling it as it is.
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Never_Forgetposted 13 years ago
Howie you should spend some time doing some hub hopping. It is a good way to see what kind of variety HubPages has in terms of members. From what I can tell, there are a lot of members who use HubPages to blog, write poems, news stories, political views, or just spam their website. So even if people aren't signing up and contributing good hubs, they seem to still be contributing a little something.
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sunforgedposted 13 years ago
since the hopper only picks up hubs that are in the lowest score ranges, I would suggest the opposite - look at the hot and best feeds to see the variety there.

19,000,000Monthly Visitors
1,021,653published hubs
190,939 published users

Those are the current HP stats - you can watch and see them rise at the hp/advertising page

the stat is for "published users" not "registered" users.

so when is this HP, IB comparison going to start? Have you been busting out hubs on another user name?
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As of 3-4 weeks ago, I went on Active Duty with the U.S. Army....running very long days here.....I've barely had the time to contribute to other platforms, let alone here...but, I do intend on it....
  
  ....I had wanted to be a bit more productive this weekend (we have weekends off here in Fort Lee, VA), but, a friend of mine introduced me to a phenomena called 'geocaching'...it's really quite interesting and fun....
  
  I have been watching and analyzing my friend 'jcmayer777's' (Jason...he posted earlier in this thread) results, and have been really quite impressed....
  
  ....maybe he'll consider gracing us with a screenshot of some of his earnings?.....
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  traderxposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My only complaint with Hub Pages is their "exclusive" policy. I have written hubs here, which are 100% original content. After a few weeks, I then take that content and post it on a blog I have. If hub pages detects that it will flag it as duplicate, even though it originated here. Does not happen all the time, but has happened to me. Its actually quite annoying, because then you have to rewrite the hub to get rid of it.
  
  Original content is not that easy to whip up all the time and I like to reuse some of the better stuff I create.
  
  Also, the use of promotional links is a bit flawed. If you add an RSS feed from any site you own, it counts each headline as a promotional link. If your feed is longer than 2, your site is flagged as promotional. An RSS feed by nature is from a single site. Adding 1 RSS feed should only count as 1 link. This makes it almost impossible to add any RSS feed for any site you own, no matter how relevant the content to the hub you created.
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Tarinposted 13 years ago
I started by writing for Infobarrel and am now trying hubpages because it is new. I tried hubpages before and was baffled by all the widgets. Boosting my author score and hubscore is like trying to get high score in a video game. Makes things a little bit more fun then the same old sites I always get backlinks from.

I only care about SEO and not making money online methods(don't want to write about weight loss and credit cards). So hubpages UI is okay(just a learning curve to figure it out) and a new domain so it fits the bill for me.
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  x3xsolxdierx3xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tarin,
  
  You have begun writing for HubPages because it is 'new'?
  
  ....HubPages has actually been around alot longer than Info Barrel....
  
  ...and, you aren't interested in making money from your writing at all? You don't need to just write about weight loss, and credit cards, if you are interested in making money online.....
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aidenofthetowerposted 13 years ago
Howie,
I thought I would add my two cents for whatever it is worth. :-P

Okay...so October was the first month that I wrote for any revenue sharing sites in over a year. Here's what I had going on between InfoBarrel and HubPages.

-Hubpages 126 "hubs" making about 60 to 80 a month.
-InfoBarrel with 99 articles making about 12 a month.

Neither of these numbers if very good, but when I look at some of my hubs I know that at least half of them are on the list for not earning much. I would say with what you know about writing, how well you write, and what you know about article marketing you will make money here.

A few other thoughts...While I love InfoBarrel I couldn't choose one over the other. I just bite my tongue in the IB forums when people go about HP bashing. I have always liked it here and always had fun writing here. I even enjoy the community and have always found them helpful when I have spent time in the forums (I really don't usually spend much time in forums). There are more people here which makes it less "tight" than the IB forum where everyone knows almost everyone else, but IB will be that way one day as well.

While I think both sites are here to stay and that the owners of both sites are dedicated to making it about both them and the writers, I hate putting all my eggs in one basket on the Internet. Times change and it could end up costing us if we do. When I started writing for eHow I didn't for see the changes there. I wrote for HowToDoThings.com and brought in over $100 a month. Originally I could keep earning for my articles even though I didn't write there, but changes last year made it so that I couldn't keep earning unless I posted regularly and they kept all copyrights so I stopped writing for them and lost those earnings. Things change.

Anyway...Hubpages is a good option in diversifying and with your Squidoo experience you should be able to whip hubs out easily (I am often slow with them because of the capsules thing).
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