I'm just wondering as a newbie here (four weeks yesterday, if my math is right ) if it's common practice for hubbers to write hubs with the intent of ridiculing or tearing apart other hubbers?
I've recently experienced this and handled it in my own way well enough (I think--I posted a rebuttal lol) but I was quite surprised that it occurred in the first place, as the idea of this happening had never occurred to me before.
Anyone else have any experience or knowledge about this?
Did the hub attack you as a person? If so, flag it, to bring it to the attention of staff.
If the hub isn't an attack on you as a person, then leave your own comment and rebut the hub.
Other than that- Move on.
I am sorry that you went through it, I recently had someone voted down my answer as they did not agree with me, so I know how this can bem affecting my hubscore and my own emotions.
Don't let this bother you, hubpages have far more good people. I think political and religious questions usually are one to stay away from.
Haha, yeah, I'm taking note of that now. No more religious questions LOL
You handled this well! :-) Some questions brings out strong emotions, so better to leave it alone.
Oh, nell, you started out in the religious forums? Dear girl, this is absolutely the last place you want to go for friendly discourse. The Crusades are still alive and well, as is bashing of every religion under the sun. Wear strong armor and carry a big stick. Political forums are second place when it comes to rhetoric and anger. Best to go in with facts and a sense of humor. Good to have another voice of reason on the Hubs.
I may be wrong, but I do not believe that up/down votes on answers affect your hub score, unless you answered the question with a hub and the hub received a negative vote. I have also experienced negative votes on answers but the questions wwere politically motivated ones. I understood before I posted the answer that many people would disagree.
Sure, but sometimes it does frost me a bit.
Today I answered a question about the historical accuracy of the Bible by suggesting "Asimov's Guide to the Bible". I felt it was only fair to warn theists that they might not care for it because he was an atheist, and that parts of it might be out of date, but nevertheless it could be a good starting place.
My response was instantly voted down. That's obviously political and extremely biased and, darn it, just not right
This thread has a long life and lot of interest!
If it was a direct attack on a hubber i would flag it if I saw it. If it was making fun of a belief I would not.
Is it a flagging offense? I wasn't sure. I wonder if that means my response would be flag-worthy too.....not a pleasant thought lol
Honestly though, I really was taken aback by it. I hope it's not a common thing, as I came here to meet new people with similar interests, have fun, and if I'm lucky, make a bit of money at the same time.
Overall, most of my experiences here have been great and I feel like I'm learning a lot. The Hubmetrics are especially useful, and I like it better than Google Analytics.
I knew the forums would be iffy, so I've tried to be careful in what I choose to respond to. Just didn't see this other thing coming.
Well, the Hub is a forum where responses are encouraged, but not insulting or tearing down. That would be unacceptable. But, and I keep using that word, just because someone that responds has a differing opinion or thought on your subject doesn't exactly mean the writer intends insult. Form is where the distinction lies. If you feel insulted I suppose you are therefore insulted. But if someone just disagrees with you and is trying to clearly spell out their point of disagreement, perhaps no insult was actually made. If you feel strongly about the matter, perhaps you might bring it to the attentions of those in charge and ask for their opinion and possible remedy.
Those are great points, thank you for that.
I'm not sure, really. We definitely have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I don't expect anyone to have the same beliefs.
What happened was he asked a question here. I answered my view. He posted his response under his own question which was a bit insulting, but nothing flag-worthy in my opinion. I sent him an email, because I found that I couldn't respond to his question again (as it said I'd already answered it), and then he took my email and wrote a whole hub about it and me in a very ridiculing way.
I'm a big girl, so I fought back with my own hub. I plan to leave it at that, but it did bring up this question for me. I'm glad to have gotten some inspiration out of it this time, but I'd hate to waste all of my time combatting people. Sometimes it's fun, but sometimes it's just a pain in the ....bum haha
Plus, I am a little worried about how far a person could go. My public name wasn't visible on my profile, but I did enter it in my information. So when I sent that email from here, it had my real name on it, instead of my ID. I'm not trying to hide anything, so that's fine. Unless people wanted to take things farther. Then it worries me.
Flagging is better than rebuttal, in my opinion. A rebuttal only helps the offending hubber get more pageviews and keeps the negative hub alive.
I've thought about that, and that's another reason I asked this question. I wondered if I handled it badly. I wondered if anyone else had encountered this and how they handled it.
I didn't want to sound like a newbie tattle-tale who couldn't handle herself. But then I guess it doesn't really matter in the longrun.
If you aren't sure, I would suggest flagging it. Then staff will determine one way or the other.
Not sure I understand what youre saying here.
If its a comment on a Hub ,then you can set it up so you approve or deny the comment ,thus eliminating any rebuttal.
On the other hand if someone is making a comment to correct or disagree ,well thats what the comment function is for too, but like I said its up to you the publisher exactly how you want to treat it.
Remember too ,that how you communicate with people will be read by potentionally anyone ,on the net and its in your interest to attract traffic not repel it.
I find that function especially helpful with spammers.
And your writing a hub doing exactly the same thing does nothing to alleviate it.
And, a lot of people do not like forum or answer topics being taken to email.
I wouldn't have done it if I could have responded back where it all started. But I really wasn't rude or offensive in what I said--at least I tried not to be.
It basically said in the end that we could agree to disagree and I wished him well. He found that ridicule-worthy too. I guess you just never know with some people.
Lesson learned, I guess?
Agreed, couldn't that be considered harrasment?
It depends on the intent, I'm sure. I hope you aren't suggesting that was what I was doing? My email is there, word for word, for all to see. Nothing I said could be construed as harrassment. I was continuing a conversation that the answer forum wouldn't allow me to finish. But I tried to do it in a respectful way.
If I'd had it to do over again, I'd do it differently, but I definitely wasn't harrassing anyone.
Can I just say that religion and politics are a couple of issues which are fraught with danger. Chances are you will offend at least half your audience.
Which is rubbish. I like to offend all of them.
No, but seriously, why go out on a limb when we are all here to get hits, make money? Or maybe that's just me.
Oh Oh, I am soooo offended
Sorry mate, you gotta work harder then that if you want to offend all!
Lol. Yes, I haven't really been offensive at all. But I am trying to stay clear of the politics and relgious topics.
I like a good debate now and then (when done right), but I don't like to make personal attacks or try outright to be offensive (though I suppose I may have just gone against that by posting a rebuttal, now that I think of it).
I guess with these issues (in politics and religion) that it gets hard when people do personal attacks instead of staying on topic. It reminds me a lot of little kids saying "oh yeah! well you're stupid!" or "your mama!" LOL
I guess the older we get, the more things never really change in some ways
It's an anonymous playground. Forums are lethal.
Although most people are here to make some money, write some stuff, enjoy themselves - there will always be a few that cause trouble.
It's difficult, I sympathise. I have had my own run ins in the past (not everyone appreciates my brand of 'humour'), but so far here so good.
That's until someone posts something that I just have to get involved in of course.
Ok, I've read the whole episode. Here is what I think. First Word Shower baited you. He/she more or less admits to that. You bit..hard. Then because he/she knew they had you hook line and sinker, they wrote a hub about it. Notice I said "it" as in the whole episode, not necessarilly you. Although he does mention you by name, most of his comments are towards "Christians" in general. You emailed him/her. Why? Simply rate the hub accordingly and move on. Things like this normally work theselves out. Unless you insist on stoking the flames.
Here is my advise. There are a handfull of activist athiest who haunt the religous forums. The appear to do this simply to annoy Christians. Know that going in. Typically you should avoid them and keep on your topic.
I see you are a big fan of labels. Perhaps you should be more honest in your profile.
Adjectives are not necessarily labels. Context is key.
Excellent, a grammar argument. At least we've moved off the religious stuff. Phew!
We don't do it to annoy, or at least I don't. I do it to help people who feel that they are surrounded by people who are theists and are thinking there must be something wrong with them because they KNOW it all sounds ludicrous. They need to know that other rational people exist.
When I refute sillly religious posts, I don't really care about the person who made them. I'm writing to provide community for isolated atheists.
That's curious to me, PC. You don't care about the poster, but are providing community. Because you care, or don't care? You only care about atheists?
Curiouser and curiouser.
There should be support for everyone out there, for sure. But really, why does it have to fall to personal attacks? I guess it's because it's such a personal choice.
I want to thank you though, for not being offensive here in expressing your difference in beliefs. I wish everyone could do it that way.
I don't know if it is fair to include you in this, but many Christians interpret attacking or ridiculing beliefs as a personal attack.
Pointing out foolish religious assertions is not personal.
I absolutely defend your right to believe whatever you want, but that won't stop me from ridiculing the more ludicrous parts of those beliefs or stop me from pointing out fallacies and hypocrisy.
I don't find it offensive at all when someone disagrees with me. Every one of us is entitled to our own beliefs. Far be it from me to tell anyone that the conclusions they've reached through their own experiences are wrong.
But I do have a problem with people choosing to attack another person when disagreeing with them (I guess I fell into that too in posting my rebuttal--but I've removed it so I feel better now haha).
What about pointing out foolish atheist assertions? I suppose it can go both ways.
If you ever see me saying something foolish or illogical, please do point it out. I certainly wouldn't take it as an "attack" and if you caught me in a moment of stupidity, I'll laugh at myself and thank you for setting me straight.
Hey, we all get screwy now and then, right? It's especially easy to get ourselves far out on a very shaky limb when we are passionate about things.
I know sometimes I upset theists. But I really mean this: I will stand right by your side and defend your right to have and practice your religion even while whispering in your ear that you are so very, very wrong and it is annoys me greatly that my principles make me stand with you.
I'm sure that confuses some folks, but it is truth.
No offense, but what's funny is your use of the word "if" in your post since it's clear in your other posts that you never think you say anything illogical or stupid and everyone else is confused.
That doesn't confuse me at all. I would stand by an Atheist for the same reason. We all have the freedom to choose for ourselves. We have the right to express differing opinions on all things.
It's a beautiful thing, and can be illuminating when done in a respectful way. But when a person feels very strongly about a subject, that can be hard for the best of us. I've yet to meet someone who always does it perfectly.
Tolerance can be a wonderful thing and bring many people in all walks of life together, but it's not always easy to achieve.
Well, again, tolerance might mean something very different to me.
I do tolerate religion. I don't respect it.
I guess if you go off of the literal definition, instead of the way it's often used today, that makes sense. You wouldn't feel an affinity or esteem for religion if you don't believe in anything to do with it in the first place.
I've learned something new. There really is a big difference between tolerance and respect. Thanks for pointing that out! I guess that my position would be the same as yours, only from the perspective of a theist.
That doesn't mean we have to be enemies, right? At least it doesn't for me.
So - you tolerate atheists, but do not respect them. At last - an honest theist who does not pretend to love and respect those who do not believe. Welcome.
I can respect the person and not the ideology--which I do tolerate as I hope for the same from everyone who believes different than I do. Wow--sounds complicated ha ha
I see - so you can respect a member of the KKK as a person, but not their ideology. How does that work exactly?
I see you're looking for fight and purposely twisting my words. I choose not to oblige Wonderful thing--choice--isn't it?
No - you said:
But - this only applies in certain cases. You do not tolerate members of the KKK. And rightfully so.
Good point. I should amend my earlier statement to say that I can respect the person, tolerate the beliefs--so long as those beliefs do not promote hatred. There? Good enough? Hmmmm....would you, by chance, be an editor? LOL
That is the nub of the matter. You agree that some people and some beliefs do do not deserve respect - you just have a different benchmark than I do. I do not have any respect for a KKK member either, nor do I tolerate their beliefs in anyway shape or form other than being incapable of forcing them to not believe that way.
What most people actually mean when they say people should respect other people's beliefs is - they want their beliefs to be respected.
Slight disagreement even here.
While detesting all White Supremacy groups, we still have to respect their right to hold such opinions.
This comes up every now and then when these, umm, people want to have a march or a rally. We have to grant that, because if we don't, the slope will get to us eventually.
Principles can be the heaviest thing we carry, which is why some find them so easy to put down.
I don't have to do anything. But - I absolutely respect their right to hold whatever opinion they want and never said I did not.
No, of course you don't have to, and many people will not.
Unfortunately, in the minds of many, there is not much difference between the KKK, NAMBLA, atheists, liberals, Jews, homosexuals.. or anyone else who doesn't think as they do.
So, you don't have to defend the rights of the disgusting, but it is in your own self interest to do so.
No. I can respect a person while not respecting their beliefs. Especially if they are kind, tolerant, not judgmental..
Dont be too sure about your new found friend nell considering he posted about you being a whiner and such on the Hub comments about you. Dont trust anyone- just like in life- Hub forum activity is just like the real world except the poker face is more hidden. Stick to writing good hubs and ignore the crap!
Thank you, Paula. I ended up seeing that, but it's no skin off my back anyway. I've tried to put an end to it in a friendly way. I guess if that doesn't work, I can always do what I should've done to begin with and just ignore anything further to do with that.
What a day! LOL
Understood. I think that's a good thing. Reaching out and all...
You got part of it right, but I did not email him (her?) after the hub was published. I did that when I found I could not respond to the question again. It seems my email then found itself into a newly created hub. Inspiration? Perhaps.
I took the initial bait, yeah hindsight and all that....oh well. It's done.
But actually, there are attacks on me personally (mostly to do with intelligence, but that's par for the course with this, I guess).
Anyway, I'm choosing to just put it behind me now. No more hooks for me
Taking a guess I would say that Hubpages never intended hubs to be used in that way and to my mind it would make sense for you both to unpublish the hubs, as what purpose do they serve apart from the continuation of a dispute started in the forums.
Maybe not my place to say but I do not wish to see actual hubs develop into a place for hurling mud or insults.
Very good point. I'm considering that very thing. Thanks for being so honest.
I decided you and the others who made the point of me adding to the issue. So I deleted my hub. Thanks for all your helpful responses!
sorry wrong forum
I flagged both hubs. Sorry Nell. Both seemed purely personal content to me.
hey, come to sandpit, have some fun.
To me it is one thing to take issue with the content of a Hub. It is an entirely different thing to take personal potshots at the author of the Hub. Flagging is the thing to do, and as the other person said. Do Not approve the response if you believe it to be inappropriate. But don't shoot back, leave that to the HubMasters.
Being mean is so easy.. it takes courage to be kind!
Can we at HubPages try this form of courage please!
People would find the forums boring if everyone were to be kind. It's sad that people would think that.
Well said sofs
Sometimes a thread can get so heated, it reminds me of when a lion keeper throws fresh meat to the lions~comes n goes in a heated rush,like sex really ,lol
Next day its back to the dishes ,work and grumpy teenagers
Agree with Sofs - It's very easy to be horrible here at HP and it takes a lot of guts to do otherwise. If we don't agree with someone then fine but we can choose to disagree in a civil and harmonious way - That's how it should be and to not allow things to be said to become personal.
Using hubs to ridicule other hubbers is a common practice. The oldest that I am aware of was titled "Mark Knowles and Misha are condescending vaginas"
It's long gone but many other hubs are still around, so asking the stuff to moderate them seems to be a losing preposition nowadays.
Oh! Oh! I want to read that hub...post a link please-please.
I need another
As I said it is long gone so I can't post a link. Though I am not sure I think Mark kept a copy of it, so if you are kind to Mark he might even cooperate and let you take just one look at it.
I wouldn't use HubPages to ridicule or be unkind to another hubber. This is not a common practice and if I saw a hub like that, I would be inclined to flag it.
Most of us are here to work on our writing and to practice writing informative, interesting, and sometimes funny hubs, which we hope will get lots of hits and earn us money. Stay on the sunny side of the street.
HubPages is touted as being "the most rewarding place to publish, discover and interact with people who share your interests". When one stays on purpose one doesn't run into problems or get sidetracked by those who are not using HubPages for that which it is intended to be used. The great temptation here, as in other areas of life, is to step into the fray in an attempt to handle some problem, real or imagined. Some people may not agree with what you have to say and others may simply be disagreeable people period. They are not your problem unless you take them (and their problem) on. This I have learned from the school of life - a school from which I have yet to graduate.
Do what you came here to do and what you love to do. I haven't been here all that long myself but I have met some wonderful people here and I have often been sorely tempted to wade into some not so wonderful spots wherein being 'right' seems to be the prime directive!
Have fun and play your own game!
Ha! Out of curiosity I just went and check, and on top of a couple of hubs I know about I found a fresh one - our friend Pclown recently published one devoted to me. As you can guess it does not contain any praise
I will not give him a backlink, but you can search hubs for "misha", and you'll find it
If you had bothered to read it, you'd find it didn't ridicule you at all. In fact, it plainly says that while I dislike your approach to SEO, it is an approach that some may wish to consider.
Toward the end of that, I said:
I don't like false linking, I won't do it myself, I don't like people who do it, but I also fully understand their feeling that I have hoisted myself up on a pretty big high horse. This subject is a long, long way from being black and white. I'd like you to agree with me, of course, but I sure understand why people may not.
If that's ridiculing you, go ask the admins to close it.
Can we do that?? Oh, goodie! I want to write a hub that ridicules Randy Godwin! I have decades of material. lol
there used to be more of them when one sock puppet got mad at someone else's sockpuppet, and left in a huff, made a new sock puppet account to write more scathing hubs to ridicule their oppressors.
Misha, you know I luv you, but I don't think Pcunix's hub is ridiculing. It's obvious he doesn't like you and others who use this technique, but I thought his treatment of black hat was pretty fair. Perhaps it would have been better if he didn't call you out by name? I'd also like to add that much of Misha's success here comes from extensive SEO research. I know because he's helped me some in this respect.
Look, guys, I'm sure you don't give a rat's tail about what I think, but sometimes I can't keep my big mouth shut! Sorry! lol
I had a reason for mentioning him specifically.
I have said this in other places, but I will say it again here:
I detest black hat SEO, but if you insist upon doing it, at least go learn from somebody who has a brain and won't lead you to damage yourself or HubPages from your naive enthusiasm.
(I have been told that some people thought I am attacking Misha here. I'm not - I'm saying that if you want to learn how to do aggressive SEO without harming yourself or this site, you should read his advice)
Oh, and I do give a rats tail and then some about what you think. We are not always on the same side of arguments, but you approach everything with intelligence and class and I admire you greatly.
Holle, if stating I spam and use black hat methods is not ridiculing me, then what is?
And you just admitted you are not exactly familiar with what black hat is and how to use it - this is exactly what this liar and demagogue uses to lure unsuspecting people to support him
Hey clown, you can report me again, last time you got me banned for a week
Yes, I have reported you again, Misha, and I will do so every time you violate the rules of these forums.
I AM familiar with what black hat is, and as Habee says, I tried to present a fair and balanced view in that hub in spite of my personal distaste for manipulating SERP.
Again, I invite you to take your case to HP and try to convince them that I have ridiculed you in any way. I have not.
Pcunix, I just don't get this black hat argument with Misha. I can see that you wear a very colourful hat. But Misha doesn't seem to be wearing any sort of hat. Are you seeing a different picture to me?
This hub business is so puzzling.
Can't we all just get by without reporting people for tiny "personal" attacks like that? We are adults after all. I saw at least one personal attack from you to Misha also.
PQ and Misha, PLEASE resolve your differences! Both of you are very well respected and liked here, and I hate that you can't get along. Can't you guys just agree to disagree? Yes, I'm the eternal optimist when it comes to the inherent good in mankind.
Holle, I don't follow the guy around, don't bash him in comments to HP blog post about him, don't publish hubs about him... I mostly just ignore him, so your request is sorta unfair - I already am in compliance, this is him who you should address
What more can I do?
I don't like his methods, but I have bent over backward to be fair. I recommend people who don't agree with my moral stance to read Misha, Hoggan and others who will at least teach them not to do things that could get them banned or cause other sites to ban all HP links.
On his part, he persists in ridiculing me frequently in public. Hoggan often joins him and so does Knowles. I have reported him every time in hopes that will dissuade him, but he seems not to care.
Should I just ignore personal attacks? Should I change that hub to make it even more clear that there are other ways to look at this issue? If you have the time, please read it again and if you see any part where I am unfair, I'll try to fix it.
I make the same offer to Misha. Point out where you think you have been painted unfairly. You can leave it in the comments or send it in email.
Some of you should really get a grip on yourself, and learn what a personal attack is.
If I said "Mark Knowles is a disgusting old fart who drinks too much, can't afford a decent toupee to cover his bald spot, and has been known to gaze longingly at sheep", then that is a personal attack.
And Mark would be well within his rights to report me.
(But he's probably too stupid to even find the report button, so he wouldn't do that)
And that was a personal attack as well.
As another example, If I were to say something like like "PCUnix has an outdated knowledge of SEO practices, and needs to bring himself up to date with the latest developments" then that is a statement of my opinion, and not a personal attack.
Nor ridiculing him.
PCUnix would then be quite entitled to make me justify my statement, and perhaps direct him to some resources.
And it would be up to readers to determine who presented the more credible case.
And if any of you are inclined to treat a statement like that as a personal attack, then what the hell are you doing on a discussion forum on a writers site??
I thought that this was somewhere that people can go to argue their case on topics, and debate with others who might have have a differing point of view.
Or has it become a kindergarten where you go off bawling to the Hubpages Nannies for every time someone says something you don't like.
Fair dinkum, Some of you need to put on your Big Boys pants. (Or big Girls Knickers)
Where is this report button of which you speak?
I'm not falling for that trap.
You'll get me banned!
sometimes the best thing to do is write a rebuttal hub, which is what I did with my Darwin hub. I didn't resort to name-calling etc, but I countered the opinions in the original hub.
Since my name has been brought into this i should say something.
The main problem that has fueled disagreements between me and PCunix is that my standpoint is one of a realist as opposed to an idealist. I need to provide results, my livelihood depends on it. PCunix has no formal experience of SEO so any advice offered by him about linking or any other aspect of SEO should be viewed in that light.
That’s simply my opinion, it’s not a personal attack.
Personally I think it’s better to model success therefore my advice would be to heed the words of people like Misha and Mark Knowels. If you are here to create some kind of income, litsten to what matters, the rest is just noise.
Can I just say I have never written a hub critical of other hubbers. I do have a black hat, woolly, that I use in cold weather - it makes me look like a geeky terrorist. I don't flame in the forums, unless I am a bit bored. I love all my fellow Hubbers in a non stalking way, although I have made a little list of those that I love slightly less. I am a Christian atheist agnostic, left and right leaning, interested in cookery, cuddly animals and anarchy.
Hope that covers it.
Please vote me up.
Thanks for listening.
all i can say is, I don't want to use writing to offend fellow writers....more so here in hubpages
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