Help for people with substandard hubs

1. 41

   pertibha321posted 13 years ago

   All of my hubs are offline.I were making good income from just 35 hubs,got 100 followers and many good comments.But all is wasted as moderators think that my hubs don't qualify standards of hubpages.I don't argue with moderators as they are doing their work.Still peoples like me who's hubs have been made unpublished need some help to improve their hubs.
   I think its better if moderators put a comment on hub after checking it to tell the author that what is the real problem.That will help author to find the real problem.
   I ask my fellow hubbers to give suggestions to help us(people who's hubs have been made unpublished)also to improve moderating process.

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   1. 61

      Sarah Connorposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Petribha it is a bit unfair to expect ESL contributors to have the same level of English expertise as native speakers.  However, you are a computer programmer (C/C++) and you know all too well what happens when you give either a syntax or semantics error to a computer!  It gets rejected.  If you were earning a good income from your 35 hubs then go to elance.com, guru.com, or one of the other freelance sites and hire an English language expert to review and correct your hubs.  Best wishes.

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         Aficionadaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         There are also "English language experts" on HubPages who can be hired. And, of course, there are some like recommend1 who will offer to do the same thing for free.

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2. 80

   LeanManposted 13 years ago

   The standard of your English in your comment says it all...

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   1. 41

      pertibha321posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      dear i have saw that your replay always try to decrease my confidence.Why are you doing that?I have just asked for help to improve and it's not only for me but for all people who's hubs have been made unpublished.

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      1. 80

         LeanManposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It is not the task of HP to give you English lessons. if your grammar, word selection ("replay" instead of reply), etc are not up to the standard expected on an English language website then it is up to you to bring those standards up not HP or us.
         Whilst I sympathize about your plight I also have to selfishly point out that those hubs with poor English and all the other problems that everyone is complaining about are dragging down other hubs on this site!
         So go back to school if you can, or use the tools in your word processor to highlight poor grammar, spelling etc.

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      2. 61

         recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You should take no notice of leanman - your eloquent writing about interesting things was mostly untroubled by the occasional error, while his generally boring material written like stapling planks to the floor is painful to read, and only the occasional spot of poor grammar.
         
         The issue is what Hubpages requires for you to publish.  I would be pleased to edit a few of your hubs for you so that you can start getting them back online - maybe leanman can climb down from his high horse and volunteer to do a few ?
         
         Send me 5 by email and I will then do more if they don't take too long - ok ?

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         1. 60

            SomewayOuttaHereposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ...what a nice panda bear you are...mornin' R1

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         2. 68

            lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            "I saw many guys using funny hairstyles,wearing pets very low to waist.At least i don't like it and also most of the girls don't like that.That makes you look stupid."
            
            "So now you have the no. but she doesnt know you.no problem just go slow start from sending massages.just send 2-3 massages in a day in start for few days keep your target on funny massages specially."
            
            

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            1. 84

               rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                 oops...  I'm not sure how anyone does not see major issues with this kind of writing. It is an English language site!

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            2. 61

               recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Yes - I found a fair bit of that - I also found the hubs interesting and largely not such bad writing.
               
               I also took a trip around our top twenty hubbers rather than hub-hopping the poor unfortunates and found two with just as atrocious grammar in its way, and one with not only poor writing generally but more haphazard punctuation than my Chinese low level learners ! 
               
               Maybe less harassment and more help might be a better approach to this rather than heaping the blame for Hubpages downfall on second language writers.  The site is suffering because of the high numbers of mediocre product hubs that all say the same thing when taken together - start digging in to some of our supposed 'top' and 'featured' hubers who seem to get away with it because they make a bit of grub money for the site.

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               1. 84

                  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I think this is a fair assessment. I have seen the same and it's discouraging. They must receive a lot of views/comments.
                  
                  I see hubs churned out that read like they've been churned out.

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               2. 68

                  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  And all this time I thought we were talking about the quality of one hubber's hubs...
                  
                  But if we're going to introduce the rest of HP into it, here's my take. If it's cr*p, it's cr*p. I don't care whether you're an ESL writer, Chinese, Indian, a poet, a top hubber or Paul Deeds. I'll flag it when I see it if it doesn't live up to at least bare minimum standards, which this hubber's hubs clearly don't.
                  
                  Pertibha321 put herself out there by posting about this same issue time and again over the past few weeks. If what she was really looking for was a pat on the back and the false hope that her hubs are great and she should keep trying, then she should have said so and saved us all some aggravation.

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                  1. 61

                     recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree that she has been a bit naive about this - and I am sorry if I fired off at you - maybe I am getting over-sensitive about the abuse and inferred rackism that is showing thorugh some of the criticism of second language writers.  The rank hypocrisy of really bad writers (in the creative sense) with sub standard grammar sitting on a pile of boring product hubs that have been 'done' endlessly until collectively they all say the same thing -  ah well, I think the whole thing stinks of double standards.
                     
                     I am also not convinced that bad English is actually so important, putting the language through any normal spell and grammar checker must put it over the head of any word crawling bot that can only do the same thing in some way.  How else are the poor grammar product hubs from native speakers not showing on the radar ?

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                     1. 68

                        lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm not going to argue with you in principle. However, I don't believe that anyone, whether American, English, Canadian, Chinese, Nigerian, Indian or whatever, should be passing themselves off as writers on an English-speaking site if their English is barely understandable. It has nothing to do with ESL. And there is a world of difference between writing with a few grammar issues and writing that is piss poor.
                        
                        I've heard a ton of other hubbers say "Good for you for trying to learn the language..." in the same breath as "I would never attempt to write on a foreign language site." It's because they understand that just because someone is interested in cars and knows how to pop the hood doesn't mean they should be out there selling their services as an auto mechanic.
                        
                        While poor writing like Pertibha321's may not hurt the site directly, time on page by the readers is an important factor. Whether Google uses that right now, I don't know. If they don't, I'm sure they will at some point.
                        
                        I have several product hubs. I know that people read them start to finish based on time on page. I also know that readers find them useful since I sell (or at least sold pre-Panda) a ton of the products I reviewed. There's a world of difference between that and a barely understandable hub that brings in AdSense dollars because the reader is desperate to get off the page and onto something they can actually read.

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                        1. 79

                           Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I am one of the 'ton' who holds that view and I think that you are creating a false argument. I wouldn't post on a Greek language site, but Greek is an almost irrelevant language in internet and business terms.
                           
                           By contrast, English is that language of the internet, commerce, aviation, academia, computing, and shipping - it is becoming very important for people in other non-English speaking countries to have ESL and we should encourage that.
                           
                           We expect to buy goods and services from people in India and China who can communicate in English.
                           
                           We expect to order a meal in a Greek restaurant using English.
                           
                           We expect researchers in other countries to publish their findings in English.
                           
                           We can't have it both ways.
                           
                           I love seeing some of the ESL Hubbers on HP slowly improve their language skills and learn the subtleties of the language. As long as their work is interesting, I will happily overlook a few errors - I suspect that the overall impact on the site is tiny, certainly when compared to acai berries

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                           1. 75

                              sofsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Wow!  Sufidreamer you are a truly amazing person. I think you have got the whole thing in perspective with you last line   and the last paragraph as well. I am taking no sides here but I do love to see  a balanced argument.

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         3. 41

            pertibha321posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The reason I love hubpages is its community,Thanks for your kind support.Am improving my hubs and will make them online soon.But this thread is not for me but its for others like me.

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3. 60

   BobbiRantposted 13 years ago

   Well some Substandard English hubs have been Featured.  So they should go Across the board then and make ALL of those bad English ones get fixed or they need to leave it alone.  DO NOT tell me moderators Cannot See a Featured hub!  Please! Yes it is a 'popularity contest' in many ways here!!!!  Sickening.

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   1. 79

      Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Are you flagging all of those when you come across them?
      
      I disagree that it has anything to do with how popular you are.

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      1. 80

         LeanManposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think popularity has anything to do with it, I don't even look at who the author is when I hub hop and end up flagging some terribly written half English monstrosity of a hub.
         Some really bad ones do cause me to go look at the Author and I have then sometimes flagged the Author as the other hubs are as bad or worse!

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   2. 84

      Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm here on HubPages every day, and I never notice what the featured Hubs are. 
      
      You have to stop and look at the front page of HubPages to see the featured Hubs. As a writer, I rarely look at it - I just log in and get to work.
      
      As a staff member, I bet HubPages moderators never see the front page either - they're always working on the "back end" of the site, not browsing around the public face of it.

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4. 79

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   LOL

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   1. 41

      pertibha321posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I do understand take of HP on hubs written in poor English.But i want to ask one thing to all of you who are so desperate to flag hubs with poor English.Where were you before Google algorithm change?We have had option to flag hubs before too.But no one did that with my hubs in last two years.But now these peoples are so frustrated about poor English.
      I accept that i made mistakes in my hubs but being a human being i think its better to tell author that what problems are there in  his hub else of flagging it.That's called cooperation but i think these peoples don't no what it means.

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      1. 79

         Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Obviously it was HubPages administration that found your hubs, I doubt it was because someone flagged them all of a sudden. I suspect they are going through every single one of everyone's hubs.

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      2. 61

         Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         As recently as about two/three years ago, "everyone" on a whole lot of popular writing sites kept saying that proper English grammar "wasn't important" for Internet readers.  So many were saying things like, "Nobody cares if the grammar isn't perfect.  It's the information in the article."  There have always been a bunch of sticklers for grammar, but most will tell you if they raised the issue somewhere they got a whole lot of "borderline hostility" for doing so.  So, in answer to your question about why people didn't flag before, chances are it's because so many didn't think solid mastery of English grammar was very important.  All of a sudden, now that Google says so, grammar has become important to a lot more people.
         
         With regard to why people haven't e.mailed you, rather than flag your Hub - I think a lot of people don't feel it's their place to personally criticize another Hubber's grammar, especially when a lot of people have a lot of respect for the ESL person who does quite well (even if his grammar is far from perfect).  People often feel that e.mailing someone about something like a typo (which he can then fix) is one thing.  E.mailing someone about an "issue" that can't be so immediately corrected is another.  On a "person-to-person" level, I'd never e.mail someone because his second language wasn't perfect.  I just figure his Hubs and language problem are his business. 
         
         In other words, besides there once being a lot of people who didn't think grammar mattered much (as long as it was readable), a whole lot of Hubbers have been too polite, and too respectful, of fellow Hubbers to be e.mailing because of grammar issues.  (I, personally, don't want to be getting e.mails from other Hubbers who, for one reason or another, don't like what's in my Hubs.  If HP staff doesn't like something they can let me know.  I if something keeps getting flagged they probably will anyway.
         
         So, if it's any comfort to you, or anyone like you, who seems to think fellow Hubbers haven't known what "cooperation" is, one reason people haven't been e.mailing you is that they've felt you had as much right to write here as anyone else has, and they've been too polite and respectful to e.mail you about the ESL issue.  Flagging is the thing that gets Hubs run by moderators, whose job it is to decide what's OK and what isn't.  That's how it works, and the fact that others on here haven't been e.mailing you is a sign that they've done things the way we're all told that they should be done.
         
         I don't know if this is something  you've done with each Hub you've written, but I think one thing that may help people for whom English is a second language (or a first, for that matter) is to run the grammar checker before publishing any Hub.  It's not 100%, but it does pick up a whole lot of things.  It's obviously not something a lot of people do before publishing, so now a whole lot of Hubs are being flagged. 

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         1. 68

            lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I, personally, am a stickler for grammar. If I come across a hub/article with more than the occasional grammar mistake, I simply choose not to read it and move on. I would not flag it, expect it to be unpublished or even moderated.
            
            But there is a world of difference between poor grammar and mangled, unreadable English. As I posted earlier, direct from one of the OP's hubs:
            
            "So now you have the no. but she doesnt know you.no problem just go slow start from sending massages.just send 2-3 massages in a day in start for few days keep your target on funny massages specially."
            
            I cannot figure out why anyone would want to treat that differently than a spun article. If it's unreadable -- it's unreadable. (To be honest, I could care less if a hub is spun -- as long as I can understand it, it makes sense and has only the occasional grammar error.)
            
            I, don't think it should make a difference whether the writer is a native English writer or ESL writer. I don't even know how ESL came into this whole discussion. As other folks have pointed out, there are a lot of native English speakers/writers who have grammar much worse than a lot of ESL folks.
            
            As Maddie has pointed out many times, if a hub is unreadable, it's unacceptable. If many of you came across one of the OP's hubs and saw that her name was Jane Doe from Nashville, Tennessee, I'm sure you would have flagged it in a heartbeat. Double standards should not exist here.

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      3. 84

         Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Pertibha, you're making a common mistake. Flagging does not cause a Hub to be unpublished.
         
         All a flag does is say to a moderator "please look at this, I think it might be substandard". Only the moderator can decide whether it is substandard or not.
         
         The moderators are going through and checking all Hubs anyway - being flagged just means you get noticed a bit earlier, that's all.
         
         In reality you should be glad you've been so lucky - your Hubs survived unnoticed for a long time, even though they never met HubPages standards.  If HubPages had enforced its standards better in the past, you would never have earned the income you have. 
         
         I didn't see your Hubs but it sounds like you have good material and just need some editing.  I'm sure you'll get back on board.

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5. 45

   mdlawyerposted 13 years ago

   @pertibha321.  You need not be disheartened at these criticisms.  You seem to be a little careless in your English and hence some funny mistakes creep in. For instance, "these peoples don't no".

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   1. 41

      pertibha321posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes dear you are right and good thing is that you just told me what I did wrong in my post.Still there are many hubs which have been written in poor English.I know am not much good in it but am telling these peoples to correct them.

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6. 79

   Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago

   But, if you were doing research. Would you accept the information where the spelling and grammar were so bad that you could not read the article? You have to put yourself in the reader's place.
   
   I am sure that HubPages is checking everyone's hubs right now, not just the ones that are flagged. So there is no point in blaming others for hubs being unpublished.

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7. 78

   MarloByDesignposted 12 years ago

   I do agree that Hubs with poor grammar and English "bring down the site" and understand that English is not everyone’s first language, but I recommend the following:
   
   If you struggle with the English language, ask a mentor or someone who is good with English to “proof” your Hubs before you publish them.

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