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  1. JT Walters profile image71
    JT Waltersposted 12 years ago

    Hi everyone!  Happy Holidays!!

    I have been attempting to back link and i have been unable to download firefox.  Any suggestions?



    1. rmcrayne profile image90
      rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Just say no.  To backlinking.  If you do some searches through the forums, you'll find opposing opinions on backlinking.  I was hoping pcunix or relache would stop by your thread. 

      There are plenty of successful veterans who have done minimal backlinking, but rather just let it happen naturally ("organically").  Especially in light of events since Panda, backlinking your own hubs on bookmarking sites seems even more dubious.  Probably not the best use of your time, and who knows, could actually be detrimental.

      1. JT Walters profile image71
        JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I don't know what happened with Panda so I am unaware of any adverse effects.  I have only backlinked one article and bookmarked another 10. I hve seen an increase in my traffic from book marking.  But I understand your point. I probably should just start my own blogs and backlink into myself.  Since google has cut everyone's pay I have just been reluctant to start my own blogs

        Thanks I get your point.


    2. sunforged profile image72
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      You seem discouraged. That makes sense.

      But, if you want to get something constructive out of your forum experience, thicken up the skin a bit.

      I just scanned your past forum posts to try and get a feel for what you have been asking about/how the responses have been etc.

      What I really didnt see from you .. was responses to some of the more valuable advice.

      It was about two weeks ago that rosemary first suggested that you revisit your past work. The words "on page seo" have been said a few times. I havent seen anything from your end (in your responses) to show that you paid any attention to that?

      i gave you a nice little infographic smile Did you see it? Did it give you any ideas? Did it bring up any questions?

      if I had nearly 500 pages of content and I was seeing less than 2-3k a month from it, I would be quite discouraged and would be working hard to turn that around.

      it can be done.

      I dont know what this +1 debacle is , but Im quite sure its trivial.

      You see, its not much different then saying "tweet it"  ...

      If I tweet something .. it goes out to about 10k people. ...even then its mostly a trivial exercise.

      Hubscore, lol ... +1, lol  tweet, lol

      these are tiny factors ... miniscule

      has any of your recent interactions encouraged you to do any revision/reformatting/research?

      if so .. what? Im really, truly, interested

      1. JT Walters profile image71
        JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It is late and I am discouraged but not by my numbers but by the responses I received.  I don't understand what SEO is and therefore I haven't responded as I wasn't quite certain what to ask.  I did bookmark your sight and I will read it in the morning. 

        Actually right now I am suppose to be on vacation and I have been trying to take some time off to reflect on all I have done.  I have basically stopped publishing all together right now  Since backinking is spoken about so frequently I have done research on backlinking and bookmarking in my time off.  I have done some bookmarking and I have attempted some backling but depending on whose opinion you believe it is either great idea or a bad idea.  I have done some revisions.  No reformatting but I am exploring formatting so if I decide to publish again I will have more tools at my disposal.  Everything I write is researched.  So yes, I have been honing my skills so when I return I am better at my craft.  I will check into your SEO hub.  I will try to optimize for SEO but like everything else only on a few.

        I have also tried to down load firefox so I can find the dofollow links which was what this entire forum was originally about.  If you read the initaly greeting that was what this was suppose to be about and nit completely got off track.  So I will still be attempting to download firefox.

        Did I answer your question?  I am working diligently.  I was just addressing backlinking first and then I was going to study SEO next.  I hadn't gotten there yet.  It wasn't that I was ignoring what was written. 

        I am glad these are miniscule problems.  I have also been encouraged to do nothing and allow my links to grow organically.  So I have so much advice I am told to do nothing when I don't know the difference between good and bad advice and then I am criticized for not listening....baffling.

        I'll read your work in the mornning.  I really may stop publishing all together over this.

  2. Dame Scribe profile image58
    Dame Scribeposted 12 years ago

    Not sure how backlinking and d/l'g firefox are related. I can only suggest you clean out your browser? the cache and update then try again. I imagine there must be some sort of error message that appears? There are many hubs you can find on generating traffic and backlinks smile just use the search bar above wink welcome to HP smile

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So other hubs are backlinks as well?

      1. lobobrandon profile image89
        lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yes they all do - other than me smile

        1. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi lobobrandon,

          I ama very slow at learning the technical aspects of internet publishing.



          1. lobobrandon profile image89
            lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Write a hub about it if you're successful - I'd like to do it then big_smile

            1. JT Walters profile image71
              JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That is a really big "IF"!!  We will have to see.

              All My Best.


              1. lobobrandon profile image89
                lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      2. Pcunix profile image90
        Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        This is one of those times when I wish I could give you a link to a hub of mine that explains it all to newbies. Unfortunately I can't, so I have to give you the short version.

        Any link that points to your hub is a back link.  The best are those that other people create.  There is nothing wrong with announcing your hub in Facebook, G+, Twitter.  There's nothing wrong with writing another web page that has a legitimate reason to link back to your hub. 

        Spamming links are not good.  Putting links in comments on other folks pages is spamming.  Trading links is spamming, buying links is spamming. Putting out a hundred spun articles with links back to you is spamming.

        Writing on another site and linking back is not, but there is a point where you pass from legitimate promotion to over the line. We all will have different ideas of where that line is.  Our opinions don't really matter: if Google thinks you are fine, you are fine and if not.. well, then you are not.

        1. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks so much.  I didn't realize and I was linking form other people's hubs back to my own but on the same topic.  I thought it was okay since it was the same topic but apparently I have been inadvertently spamming.  How do I announce to G+.

          Is bookmarking ojay. I have seen an increase in traffick but not in comments or ratings and I am keeping track. Thanks for clealry this up for me.  I wouldn't want to spam.

          With great appreciation!!


          1. Millionaire Tips profile image91
            Millionaire Tipsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Using other people's hubs as a reference is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a good thing for them if you put a link on your hub that take people to other people's hubs. (although it does direct people away from your pages).

            It is when you put a link to your own hubs in the comments that is inappropriate.

            1. JT Walters profile image71
              JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I do in response on my own hubs and only rarely do I do it if someone requests additional refernece in their comment section but that is really really rare.  Thanks for the response.


          2. Pcunix profile image90
            Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Nope - you are still confused.  If you add a link that points to  to someone else's hub, you are not back linking to your own, so you cannot be spamming.

        2. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Found G+ and I have been loading links all night it only seems to want to take 150 at a time.


          1. Pcunix profile image90
            Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this


            150 links??  No, no, no!

            Wait - what do you mean by "loading"???

            Oh, this is awful.  I don't know what you are doing or where you are confused but I think something is terribly wrong.

            1. lobobrandon profile image89
              lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I guess your over dumping JT Walters.. Be careful and don't overdo anything.

              1. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                She's obviously confused about something.  I want to help her avoid making a really bad mistake.  I'm not sure what's she's doing but it sounds like she might be link-bombing G+.

          2. Pcunix profile image90
            Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            OK, I found your G+ page.

            You are doing this wrong.

            This advice applies everywhere, not just G+.

            If you want G+ to work for you, you need more than just your links and you can't do so many at once.

            I'd recommend five or six entries per day at most.  Some people might say you can do more, but I'm conservative.  I don't even do that many every day.  Some days I do none! 

            Of those entries only one or two should be to YOUR hubs.  Some should have NO links at all - just mini blog entry kind of things, observations, little jokes, whatever.  The rest should be links to other interesting things you found around the internet.

            People are NOT going to pay any attention to you if you link bomb such as you did at G+.  Google is going to see you as a spammer too.

            Suggestion:  go look at my G+ page.  The link is on my profile.  Here is how my  recent posts there break down:

            Friday 11:08 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Friday 10:36 link to a hub of mine
            Friday 10:19 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Friday 8:34 link to a hub of mine
            Thursday 11:31 link to another hubbers hub   WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Thursday 10:32 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Thursday 10:08 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Thursday 10:01 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Thursday 9:58  link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Wednesday 5:13 link to a hub of mine
            Wed 2:45 link to news article WITH COMMENT by me preceding it
            Wed 2:44 reshare of another g+ person's post.

            See the idea?  And while doing that, I also left a few pertinent comments (NO LINKS) at other folks G+ posts.

            1. JT Walters profile image71
              JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Wow link bombing. I have never even heard of that term.  Thanks I wil proceed as you have described here.  I post to facebook page but the most I do is ten pages a day but i do interact with other on it.  Thanks for the heads up. 

              I am so appreciative for the advice.  i had no idea what link bombing was. I had never even heard of the term.  BTW, isn't twitter nothing more then a linking bombing site then?

              I will check you  out a G+.  Are nyou under the same name?


              1. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                "Link bombing" actually usually refers to something else, but it fits this kind of activity too.  You have been carpet bombing G+..

                No, I'm "Tony Lawrence" at G+ but the link is at my profile here.  I'll add you to my circles now.

                Actually, you just commented on one of my posts about Scrabble.  Yes, THAT'S how to do it!

                1. JT Walters profile image71
                  JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you for your help. I'll try not to carpet bomb anything else:) 


    2. Richieb799 profile image73
      Richieb799posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      About a month ago you could add SEOQuake to Firefox to view a particular sites backlinks, but that ran off Yahoo site explorer which was recently discontinued.. I now use a mix of Blekko, SEO Majestic and Opensite explorer

      1. JT Walters profile image71
        JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you for answering my question.  I will have to check out these options with SEO.  I appreciate you reading the questions and not hijacking the site.

  3. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 12 years ago

    There is nothing wrong with promoting your own work by creating a backlink else where as long as you don't pay for links and other dubious methods such as spamming forums and peoples blogs with lots of worthless comments.
    The reason that HP ranks so well compared to other sites is that its structure creates many internal backlinks to your hubs..

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Good to know. I appreciate your response. 


  4. Will Apse profile image88
    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    JT- you could be really messing up big time if you are spamming G+. I would recommend just stopping and reading round the subject until you understand it better.

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But I am not spamming G+.  It literally asks me what is on my mind.  What is wrong with posting my link there?

      1. Pcunix profile image90
        Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I have explained that above and I also just wrote an expanded version of it as a hub.

        You aren't using the site as a social site. You are using it only to promote yourself.  That's NOT going to help you.

      2. lobobrandon profile image89
        lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It asks you what's on your mind not what do you want to promote. Be careful it may have a negative effect on your hubs as well.

        1. Pcunix profile image90
          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this


          JT, if I were you I'd delete 99% of that and write an apology post there - just explaining that you misunderstood what G+ was for.

          Then read what I wrote above and start using it like a real human would. No - BE a real human! You'll get every one of those links in there eventually, but not all at once and they will be mixed in with the rest of your life!

          1. lobobrandon profile image89
            lobobrandonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yup good point big_smile

        2. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          But my hubs don't sell anything.  There are ads placed by third parties but not me.  Most of my hubs are educational and not pormotional.


          1. Pcunix profile image90
            Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That's not the point.  It's excessive promotion and if everybody did what you did, Google might even ban links to HubPages (other sites have actually done that in the past because of excessive linking abuse).

            1. melbel profile image94
              melbelposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'm really surprised that HubPages doesn't have a bit in the Learning Center on this topic. I'm going to request one in the bug/suggestion forum.

              Don't link bomb or carpet bomb ANYWHERE.

              If you link out to interesting news bits, post pictures, interact with your followers, when you DO post a link to your hub, your followers will be a billion times more likely to check out your hub.

              If you post nothing but links to your hubs, not only will users NEVER read what you post, but they will unfollow you. I have unfollowed a lot of people because of this. In fact, there are a number of users on HubPages who write beautiful hubs, but I won't follow them on twitter because they spam their timeline.

              Pcunix posted some good tips on what to do with his G+ timeline. In my recent interview, I talked about posting links on Twitter. You can check out the interview in the newsletter archives:

              1. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

                By the way, the thing I put at G+ is just a link back to a hub here..  If HP had a decent page in their help, I wouldnt have bothered to write it. I was just so frustrated trying to help J.T. but  couldn't find anything so I wrote it,  but then of course you can't put links here, so I found her on G+ and then sent her back here to read what I wrote  :-)

                A bit convoluted, but it worked.

              2. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                And you know, I do tend to ignore Twitter and Facebook too much other than hub announcements,  I think I'm just going to start ignoring them completely.. They are both awful anyway.

                G+ is full of really interesting people.  It is NOT Facebook.  Maybe Google thought it would be, but it turned into something ten times better..  Well, until J.T. bombed it :-)

                No, I'm just kidding.  She knows what to do now, but it would be nice if the learning center had a better page.

                If I may be so bold as to suggest taking a look at what I wrote?  Real examples are so much better than vague instructions.  Maybe they could find somebody who  does a better job than I do and use examples from their social networking but I think examples are the key.

              3. JT Walters profile image71
                JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Lesson learned and Pcunix got a very interesting article out of it.  May of these topics were not expressly covered when I joined.  And since everyone has stated Google isn't paying anyone anymore then what is the big deal?  I am noew.  Explain it to me.

                I specifically have been given directions in some hubs to post links to facebook and twitter and then G+.  And then and only after I did what I was reccommended did I recieve this fire storm of revolt.  This is only a suggestion but perhpas the forums and the hubs on such subjects should be closely moderatoed so bad advice is not given out to people who are new.

                Did you read Lean Man's comment?  Did you see anyone specifically state not to post links to G+ until after I did so?

                Pcunix specifically told me to announce to Facebook, Twitter and G+ and then when I did found fault in what I did without being specific.  I think everyone should go much easier on me because I was TOLD TO ANNOUNCE TO G+ on this forum and then that very same person made a very big deal of it wrote an article about me and completely took advantage.  And all of you ganged up never considering I was told to announce to G+.  The forums are suppose to help fellow writers not mangle each other for articles at the expense of other writers.  Perhaps everyone should consider that well when they make reccommendations on this forum and before they exploit a person for taking bad advice in a hub article.

                Enough with all of you.

                Pcunix posted good tips?  Pcunix told me to announce to G+. He never qualified how much or in what manner.  That is very significant when providing advice.  I think Pcunix needs ot bare some of the responsibility here as well as HP for not monitoring the forums and all fo you for jumping aboard a sinking ship of moral inpropriety of bad advice.

                MAybe all of you should go back and read all of the forum before renedering judgement on me. I think I have taken quite enough from all of you when in fact you should ask the respondents why they didn't provide full and accurate information.

                1. paradigmsearch profile image61
                  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  All I remember when G+ first came out was "Don't +1 yourself or google will kill your ass." being splattered all over the forums. big_smile

                  1. IzzyM profile image85
                    IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I read that stuff too, and as a result don't send links to Google + unless it is something really interesting I have found.

                    I have noticed there are a lot of hubbers here who, less than a year in, consider themselves to be 'expert' and write hubs full of bad advice.

                    I've also seen an awful lot of advice bandied about on the forums recently that, if acted upon, will do more harm than good.

                    But, sitting here with a plunged account, who is going to listen to me?

                    Maybe some folk just have to learn through their own mistakes.

                  2. JT Walters profile image71
                    JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this


                    That is the only real rule I remember about Google + as well.  Other then that I don't believe I have read firm rules about posting as to what qualifies as spamming and what does not.

                2. Pcunix profile image90
                  Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh boy.

                  I didn't take advantage of you. I was trying to help you.  You've been here 7 months, so I thought you might have known better.  I was wrong and as Melbel and I have both noted, there really should be better advice in the help section.  Not better, really - they do say this, but they don't give clear examples.

                  I'm not dumping on you.  The subject is confusing and there is a lot of atrocious advice here so you are NOT to blame.

                  But give us a break, too.  We can't give links to our hubs even if I already had something helpful.  We see this kind of post almost every week and it gets tiring reminding people of basics - especially when other people are loudly yelling 'back link, backlink, backlink!"

                  I've been called "naive" and "foolish" and worse for speaking out here against spammy linking.  Panda seems to have proved me somewhat right, but even today we have folks here that will advise you to go buy fake links.  The horrible part is that because they are very sneaky and clever, they get away with it and make far more money than I ever will.

                  I try hard to be helpful.  I try to be reasonable.   I can't write a book every time I answer a question and forum rules prevent me from pointing at places where I might have already answered it. 

                  I'm sorry you think I led you to error. 

                  Finally, your anger is so discouraging that I feel like giving up even trying to help anyone again.  Seriously.

                  1. JT Walters profile image71
                    JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Seriously you told me to announce on G+ and when I did you claimed i carpeted bombed it. I can laugh at myself but really it is not covered well by anyone.  And there is so much disinformation in here how is anyone knew to know what to do?

                    I wasn't angry but discouraged as well because I work so hard to try and get it right on here.  I spent hours and hours linking and then deleting.  And you are right I have only been on this site for seven months so I have absolutely no idea what happened with Panda. Perhaps if an article was published about that it would be helpful for everyone who is new.

                    You couldn't have known how much I would link and I didn't know there was a limit but I am human and this hurts when I was really trying to improve my work by backlinking and following advice of more experienced hubbers like yourself.

                    I would never mean to discourage you and please don't take it that way. I appreciate your efforts I just wish we had conmunicated more effectively so this didn't happen. And I wil never be able to explain it or restore my reputation with G+ because I am not allowed to post.

                    I get it gets old explaining things but I still do it as I believe those of us that can help should.

                    IMO I believe HP should moderate or atleast establish a policy about backlinking, appropriate backlinks, attrocious advice in hubs and even worse advice in forums.

                    Seriously, I am completely disheartened as well.  All I wanted was to work diligently on Hubpages.

                  2. rmcrayne profile image90
                    rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Pcunix, I well recall these forum exchanges.  I was a fan of several of the high profile hubbers with opposing views, but even so, what you said appealed to my logical nature, and I definitely remembered what you said.  In my limited understanding of Panda and post-Panda events, it has definitely occurred to me that it seems you were right. 

                    As far as not posting links, I know it used to be allowed if it were relevant.  Obvious things change, and moderators have cracked down.  I think it is perfectly acceptable to share a little more though.  I will often say something like “I wrote a hub about blah blah blah”, not typing the exact title, but enough of my title words so that someone could find it if so inclined.  I wish you would have done that.  I would have bookmarked it immediately. 

                    Finally, I hope you don't give up.  I think it is your nature to be helpful.  Though slapped by OP, I am sure there are many silent readers out there who very much appreciate your posts.

                3. rmcrayne profile image90
                  rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Like another hubber who recently got herself banned from HubPages, you have caught my attention and not in a good way.  Another train wreck I can’t stop watching.  I follow your forum posts just to see what you are going to do or say next. 

                  You can’t believe everything you read.  This lesson applies to HubPages as much as it does anything else.  I for one previously gave you advice related to this very issue.  I think you read with a bias toward your pre-conceived notions, and take off impulsively with things you read, not knowing the authority of the hubber.  In fact you seem to gravitate to the garbage, and ignore legitimate advice.  And no, it’s not realistic for HP staff to monitor and censor hubs and forum posts for who is giving legitimate advice. 

                  I know it’s difficult to recognize the pearls from the trash when you’re inexperienced, but I would suggest no action until you do, rather than scrambling to act on recommendations that you do not yet have the knowledge to know whether it is good advice or not.  As I suggested already on another thread, successful hubbers like relache and habee do little to promote their hubs, other than write well on topics people want to read.  I previously checked out quite a few of your hubs.  They seem to be written well enough.  And you seem to have lots of good topics.  I can’t help but wondering if you are sabotaging yourself through some of your other efforts.  There are some really savvy hubbers out there, but most of us just need to be patient, and not artificially try to gain authority for our hubs. 

                  Suggesting pcunix needs to take blame for anything is just plain wrong.  He is a gentleman, and is trying to help you, with no agenda nor anything to gain.  Seems to me, and I’ve been observing your posts for a while now, that you “hear” what you want to hear, and now you are blaming others because it did not work out for you.

                  1. JT Walters profile image71
                    JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Is it appropriate for you to personally attack me?  And I have to worrry about being banned?

                    I did listen to your advice.  Those articles haven't been posted anywhere.  How could I be sabotaging myself if I don't know the difference?

                    I think it is really harsh for you to claim I am a train wreck because i followed advice which deemed sage and yet I am self sabotaging.  Your logic is flawed in that argument.

                    I am not suppose to scrabble to take advice which you deemd good by Pcunix?  So I am wrong for following Pcunix advice but it is good advice.  Really?  I don't hear anything I am reading and it was quite claerly posted that I should "Announce on G+".

                    I respond to the rest of your post but really I will not lower myself.  I suggest you work on your hubs and stop analyzing other hubbers which I noticed in your biography your are not even qualified to do. More work and less analyzing.

                4. LeanMan profile image80
                  LeanManposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  DON'T spam!!!!!! PC is 100% correct in what he says.. There is no problem writing a few articles about your subject and putting in links to your hubs, there is no problem leaving RELEVANT and MEANINGFUL comments on blogs and forums with a link back to your hub if it adds more value to the conversation!
                  But just using any social "bookmarking" site to only post links to your own work is a recipe for disaster. Do what PC suggests, mix in a few of your links in amongst many links to others!

                  1. JT Walters profile image71
                    JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I already have.

  5. WriteAngled profile image73
    WriteAngledposted 12 years ago

    I found absolutely nothing on Google+

    Nobody ever writes anything. I have been there since it was opened to everyone. Have "circles" of people, but never see anything happen.

    I am sticking to Facebook where I can interact with numerous people and groups.

    I don't announce any hubs there. I use a throaway second Twitter account for that purpose.

    1. Pcunix profile image90
      Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That is so contrary to my experience.  From my perspecive, Facebook is full of junk, G+ is a jewel.

      But more important is that G+ is a critical part of Authorship and *1!s.  Facebook is not.  Enough said.

      1. WriteAngled profile image73
        WriteAngledposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Each to one's own opinion.

        I think G+ will go the way of Google Answers (which was extremely good, I may add), Knol and other stuff when G sees it is not filling their coffers. I have heard far more people say they will never touch it because they believe G already pries too much into people's lives than I have heard people enthuse about it.

  6. IzzyM profile image85
    IzzyMposted 12 years ago

    And J T Walters, train wreck exactly describes what you have been doing. I so agree with rmcrayne, but hey PCUnix gave you great advice.

    Honestly, from my own experience, backlinking is largely a waste of time.

    When I used to do well here, it was actually worthwhile backlinking to social media sites, because it got your hub indexed quicker and if you were already in Google's good books, you saw instant traffic.

    If you are in Google's good books, you will still see that traffic a week later without going to all that effort.

    If you are not in Google's good books, it makes bugger all difference!

    So I don't do it anymore.

    You have good hubs, and the traffic will come, just give it time and meanwhile keep writing more hubs to build on the foundation you have started.

    Spend the time you might have spent backlinking on learning SEO and on and off page optimization, that is a much more productive use of your time smile

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      I really liked you and this really hurts coming from you.  But quite frankly I followed the great advice "Announce to G+" and you too claim it is great advice and yet I am a train wreck for doing so.

      So in this forum following great advice makes you a train wreck?  That doesn't make much sense now does it?

      1. IzzyM profile image85
        IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I've never said backlinking to Google + was a good idea.

        Take away the train wreck part of what I posted, and see the good stuff I did post.

        I said you write good hubs, and that you should spend your time studying SEO, and writing yet more hubs to strengthen what you have published already.

        Hey, don't take it personally. I am giving you good advice, as have others here.

        The train wreck only happens when you don't listen, and I have a feeling you are listening now.

        1. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          The great advice Pcunix gave me was to "Announce on G+" and I did. Now what he didn't know was how much I would announce and what I didn't know was there was a limit.  And I think we both acknowledge this is an error.

          I did see the good stuff you posted or I wouldn't have responded to you at all.

          I am listening but I am taking specific hubs and not doing any backlinking and now I will study SEO and apply that to certain hubs and I will continue to work when I am through with this break.  It is an assumption I am not listening. I listened to rmcrayne when I isolated certain hubs as no backlinks at all.  I listened to Pcunix when I "Announced on G+". No one ever specificied how much or better yet how little can be linked. Quite literally I have days which I publish so much I could qualify for spamming on FB or Twitter just by linking to those articles.

          How am I suppose to take it when someone calls me a train wreck and accuses me of not listen when I got burned "announcing on G+" pursuant to the advice I have been given on the Forum?  And then everyone follows up with it was "great advice".

          IzzyM, I really like you and all of my friends here on HP but this has really disheartened me and hurt me.  I would never make personal attacks on another author. Thank you for the words which were kind. I must reflect about this as I have other offers.

          1. Rising Caren profile image79
            Rising Carenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Relax smile

            Take a deep breath.

            Sometimes we get overenthusiastic and link too much, it happens. However, ask yourself: would you  rather follow a person on facebook or twitter or google plus who only does linking? Or would you rather follow a person who told jokes and quotes and made just fun comments and maybe 2 or 3 times a week decided to drop a link for you to check out? Chances are, that second person looks a lot more fun.

            That's the key to any online networking. You need to engage your followers. When it doubt, always ask yourself if you'd follow and read yourself. I know I wouldn't want to follow me if all I did was drop links.

            So your homework for tonight: what is your hook?

            I still haven't decided mine and I really should as I ought to take advantage of twitter/fb/googleplus. I'm leaning toward having a word of the day or just spending weekdays dropping fun facts and then on sunday dropping 2-3 links that related to them.

            1. JT Walters profile image71
              JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Rising Caren,

              So there is no firm rules about this stuff. I have just been mangled over opinions about backlinking?

              I understand this approach much better when you put it to me this way.  I might swing with Famous Republican Quotes and then recapping the debates before the primary voting begins in January. 

              I have a really good following from FB even just dropping links and while I don't have a great following on Twitter I do okay given the amounto fo time i put into it.

              Thanks. I am breathing again.  And I will try and relax about this.  I really appreciate your help.


          2. livewithrichard profile image72
            livewithrichardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            JT I don't think you are a train wreck... You took the advice pcunix gave you and ran with it and then when you found out there was more to it you stopped.  You are not in any danger with G+ but like others had mentioned if you were to continue the way you were it could potentially draw some negative attention.

            Too many people are quick to tell you what is right or wrong but in my opinion only you can make that choice.  You have to decide what is  more important to you on HP quick money or long lasting traffic.  Quick money comes from excessive backlinking but its quick to be gone as well once the system catches up to you.  Long lasting traffic will come from researching your topics and choosing keywords that real people are searching for and on page SEO practices that get the attention of the SE spiders. 

            Choosing the latter of the 2 methods will bring in the backlinks for you with no more added effort and will eventually earn you more in the long run. Of course with this method you need to be patient.  They call it Evergreen content because you initially plant the seed and then it grows and takes on a life of its own.  The other way is artificial and short lived.

            Backlinking hubs, in my opinion is a waste of valuable time. Hubs are diverse and like my account cover a very large range of topics. 

            On the other hand, proper backlinking is necessary when you have your own niche blog which maintaining is completely different that writing hubs.

            1. JT Walters profile image71
              JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Hi livewith richard,

              I have other offers.  Perhpas is the time to field those. What I understand about backlinking is no one really quite understands it enitrely and alot of the perception of G+ requirements.  I believe their is no requirement beyond don't plus ine yourself for G+.  If someone can show me the exact policy against what I did i writing from Google I would appreciate it.. Otherwise this is jsut everyone's opinion and alot of hporrible things were written to me because of people's opinions.

              Thank you for your kind words.

              1. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                See … swer=66356

                Google is not going to say 'don't paste 100 links without anything else"  because if they do, some jerk will post 99.

                Google doesn't give very  specific advice about what they don't like,  but they have said over  and over that they don't particularly like to be gamed.  Their general advice is that if you are doing something for the benefit of your readers, it should be fine.

                There will always be gray areas and there will always be things they won't tell us. 

                But I am done giving advice here.  This will be my last attempt to help anybody.  It's not worth it.

                Best of luck.  I'm sure you'll do fine.

                1. rmcrayne profile image90
                  rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I got my lumps from JT on this one too.  I hope you sleep on it, and feel differently tomorrow.  I have come to really enjoy reading your perspective on things.  You and I just need to stay away from trains.  We can take turns spotting.  wink

                  1. Pcunix profile image90
                    Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    No, I'm done. It takes too much time, time that I should spend writing. 

                    It's upsetting, too.  I promised myself I'd stay away from politics because conservatives make mo so angry, but I didn't.  Of course I get angry at them in my hubs, too but  at least there I can tell them what I really think of them.

                    I'm banning myself from the forums unless it's something light and fun.  Just not worth it - my fault, I'm too emotional.

  7. sunforged profile image72
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    off page optimization is pretty much "where are you linked from' "how good is the page that links to you" "what anchor text is used in the links to your page"


    So anytime your talking off-page optimization - your talking backlinking, the difference is only whether you garnered them through the free choice of strangers or a strategic plan of action.

    Creating links to artificially inflate your rankings is not considered best practice by search engines. (precisely because it is a strong ranking factor)

    BUT, creating quality content at a myriad of locations that has distinct readerships and traffic and links to your relevant content is best practice for funneling HUMAN traffic ... you could "nofollow" or request the webmaster at those locations to nofollow any links if you wanted to. But you still want to have as many signposts to yourself and your content in this huge web.

    A "backlink" shouldnt only be for the bots ... or at least, in the best case, it should be something that adds value to your brand and brings interested parties.

    It will be hard to balance one over the other. But "dont backlink" is a recipe for mediocrity ... that statement needs extensive qualification.

    @JT Walters

    A note about "advice"

    The problem with advice in the SEO/Internet Marketing/Keyword/Online Writing realm is (IMO, of course)

    1. The "rules" change daily and massive upheavals like the "panda update" occur and will continue to occur

    2. The goals and motivations of each writer/publisher/entrepreneur are very diverse

    3. Much of the advice may be true in one case and not another or was true at one point (Hubs for the most part arent dated .. a hub on seo methodology from a few years back may be useless now)

    4. Many people assume common sense or a certain level of comprehension and vocabulary  (within the seo/keyword/marketing) when they offer advice

    5. Most of it is "parroting" one big awful game of "telephone" where the meaning and intricacies of the advice are diluted by each additional parrot.

    I dont know anything about your Google+ dilemma with advice ... but Google+ is so new that no one can give you accurate advice about the effectiveness of +1'ing an article or sharing on Google Plus.

    Im sure some moneyed folks have done extensive testing and are hard at work at ebooks or minting money through that knowledge - but its not getting thrown around for free quite yet ;p

    there are some long term policies that arent going to change - and they will all be around brand building/quality/approach

    If I follow a "writer" on any social network - I fully expect them to be sharing their articles. Why the hell wouldnt they? They are proud and they want readers dont they. But, I am also a writer so I know where you would be coming from. But, you(the writer) will never make a cent from me, and its quite likely that I would generally ignore the tweets/posts/shares. I wont be offended that they are there but I wont be your audience, im ruined by being in the industry.

    You have to do whats necessary to find YOUR audience - engage with them and attract more .. only trial and error and perseverance will get that for you.

    it does get easier wink

    *edit* I cant find the word to give you a link - but marketing to "friends" has way different rules and approaches then with strangers ... try to take advantage of the 'circles' in google + or groups in facebook or learn to divide your audience and approach across niche branded broadcast streams.

    keep in mind this free advice might not be worth the paper its printed on or the  amount you paid for it :p

    1. IzzyM profile image85
      IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Article marketing, if what you are referring too, is a completely different sort of backlinking, IMO.

      It is also a huge amount of work, but I do actually believe it to be an effective type of backlinking.

      I would still save it for my own sites and not for Hubpages, unless I had one hub that was somehow outstanding, worth a fortune, and worth doing, while not getting the traffic it deserved for whatever reason.

      None of my hubs fall into that category!

      I do think that new hubbers should not be encouraged to backlink, as there are too many pitfalls that they haven't yet learned.

    2. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That makes more sense then "just say no to backlinkiing". So I will stop backlinking for now and hope the damage is not too great.

  8. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 12 years ago

    Can you tell me the full name of Market Samurai? I've been hearing a LOT of good bits about Samurai and I want to look into this. I don't want to get involved with the wrong Samurai.

    I used to use Courtney Tuttle's thing, I used to be an avid reader of his blog... for gosh, years until he said that you can essentially write a bunch of sh*t and still rank. I quit reading after that. He quit writing too and started focusing more of his time on his workshop. His workshop was still good, but I didn't take his word on "write whatever, backlinking's what's important." I wonder how he fared with Panda.

    That's where I heard about HP, in fact, I'm probably his ref. I quit, though, because the write 'junk' didn't appeal to me.

    1. sunforged profile image72
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      TKA has(d) an adsense focus. Thats a very accurate statement for high adsense returns. Crap earns more money then quality (with an equal level of traffic)

      That should be obvious, for some reason its not with those who identify themselves as "writers". Readers dont click, so marketers who follow the "just rank" philosophy are likely to get more clicks.

      But adsense is bottom barrel earningswise compared to aff marketing/sales/brand building, so for everyone who wants the world to be fair ... it is ... because it does take real quality writing/research/format/trust to convert sales that bring in $20-$100+ commission each.

      Imagine if you had used the methodology that worked on "junk" and used your own quality driven content instead!

  9. IzzyM profile image85
    IzzyMposted 12 years ago

    They have a referral program but HP has banned it, so that is the site without any referral.

    You can download a free trial, and then just uninstall it if you hate it. But they do leave system files behind so that you can't get another free trial, and then you have to pay full price instead of the original discounted price.

    It is worth every penny IMO.

  10. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 12 years ago

    Got it. ;p

  11. Rising Caren profile image79
    Rising Carenposted 12 years ago

    I don't backlink but I do keyword research. I use a mixture of adwords and my own script. Mostly because I don't want to spend the money to buy Market Samurai.

    One of my online friends bought something called Google Sniper (which is a guide, not a program) and it was excellent. My current keyword tactic is a combined version of theirs and what other people have told me from their experiences.

    I've known quite a few people online who also don't backlink and only do keyword research, yet get a lot of traffic and revenue that way. As far as links go, they usually rely on inbound links and site tags.

  12. sunforged profile image72
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    I did scan your account.

    If it was me. I would go through each hub - one by one - and devote some time to retooling titles and working on basic on page seo.

    You have done so much work!

    To my eye, if your works were in a library - very few of them would be shelved in the locations they should be based on the on page factors

    maybe, this will help... … timization

    1. rmcrayne profile image90
      rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Always good to bump into you sunforged.  Hope all is well with you and your girls. 

      I attempted to say much the same thing two weeks ago.  Even dropped your name... … ost1887164

      1. sunforged profile image72
        sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I think your advice was sound.(Thanks for having a folder for me! ... I look up your vegetarian recipes rather frequently for inspiration! we had a variation from your vegetarian burger recipe hub just last week. Even got a "steak and potatoes" carnivore to admit to liking them)

        Churning out content without regards to titles and organization is a recipe for disappointment sad Going backwards is rarely fun, but I feel for the OP if she continues with her current strategy.

        The girls are good!

        1. rmcrayne profile image90
          rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Always glad to hear the family is doing well.  So glad you’ve used my veg recipes!  I’ve really enjoyed writing them, but they get very little traffic.  Next time you try a burger, snap me a picture to add to my hub!  I started a little blog, “Almost Vegetarian”, but have only made a half dozen or so posts.  I have ideas (more veg options from popular restaurant menus, my chicken-less entrees like pot pie, etc), but not high on my busy to-do list with zero traffic.  Ah, one day.  Don’t remember if I included this in any of my veg hubs, but I get heel pain when I eat meat!  In Chinese med, heel is colon.  Sometimes we have to get hit over the head to get us moving in another direction.

          1. sunforged profile image72
            sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I have a pretty big network of vegetarian sites. Done mostly for enjoyment rather than profit.

            When I get to revisit such passion projects I will do whatever I can to add some visibility to all your veggie articles that I genuinely do enjoy and would promote even if I never had any interaction with you.

            (Careful use of words

            Unfortunately, bought a house not long ago and between that and the girls I have to focus on pure evil profit at the moment in order to make sure all is taken care of as it should be.

            As much as I wish it was otherwise - I never found food/recipes to be as profitable as most other topics

            Ill be in touch in a couple months though!

            1. rmcrayne profile image90
              rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Excellent! I appreciate that.  Most of my AdSense has come from food-related hubs.  Who knows where my HP Ads money is coming from. 

              I hear ya.  I went back to work in last Aug, but "part-time", which keeps me closer to 30-40 hours, vs "full time" which has a way of creeping upwards of 60, 70 hours a week.  Thankfully I have my military pension.  Super busy in the Fall because I teach kinesiology to OT Asst students, and do some OT Asst supervision for peds home health.  Hope to have a little reprieve now, and get back to some writing and other projects.

    2. rmcrayne profile image90
      rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This seems to be a recommendation on the priority of where to focus your efforts.

  13. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 12 years ago

    Nobody said anything particularly horrible. A lot of the exact bit about backlinking that Google uses in their algorithm are kept secret. That leaves a lot of things open for speculation. However, a lot of people have tested things and these things have not only worked for them, but thousands of other people. Backlinking is okay, but if you write good content, it's not necessary. I bet a large number of successful hubbers don't seek out backlinks, or, if they do, really work to pick up very few.

    There are some things about Google that most people agree on:
    It's never okay to spam.

    If you want to do well with social networking, engage your followers

    Don't + your own hubs (that is, don't click the G+ button in your hub.)

    Do not seek out backlinks until you're able to discern if whether or not what you're doing is a good idea. Don't just follow the advice of one other person. Seek out information from staff via the Learning Center, via updates in the HP blog.

    If a user offers you information and you're not sure about it ask further questions. The most important part of this is to ASK question BEFORE following the advice. If someone gives you a verb, ask for an adverb.

    One of the problems is that, as a new user asking more well-seasoned hubbers questions, these well-seasoned hubbers may make assumptions about your experience in certain areas. This is perhaps because of a gap between those very new to the game and those who just know the system so well that it's just second nature.

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Really I don't like being personally attacked by mcrayne especially since it is so unjustified.  There was no specific rule against pitting those links on G+. This was made into a much bigger deal then it needed to be.

      Is this a forum to help each other or just attack new hubbers?  It would have been so simple to qualify that this is everyone's opinion and  not fact. I might mention that these response have been completely unprofessional.  I did aske before I folowed the advice and the advice was "announce on G+".

      A lot of nice people have come out to write nice things but I have to question why Hubpages would allow one writer to personally attack another especially when it is based on their opinions?

      I am prinitng this out so that when I get the wild hair like Mcrayne to call someone a train wreck I can because she has established a presedent and then cried foul.  I am not obligated to the bets of my knowlegde to listen to anyone especially mcrayne.

      You may lose me over this.  And I work where the others complain and tear into each other.  You have many unprofessional writers.

      1. Rising Caren profile image79
        Rising Carenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Don't leave.

        I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding. Sometimes it's easy for the nonnewbies to end up attacking (even if they don't mean to) because of all the times we've had people ask for "advice" and then not take it at all. It's heartbreaking.

        And also sometimes we give advice and forget to talk about limitations because of how "obvious" they are. But they're only obvious from experience - it's not quite as obvious to someone that is new. Thus, miscommunication can happen.

        Because of that, sometimes people's fuses grow short and snap. Don't let a few bad experiences get to you. I think you're honestly trying to learn how to do all this and that speaks volume.

        Like I said before - just breathe. Tomorrow will be a better day.

        Additionally,whenever people give you advice always remember that chances they WILL forget to tell you something and you'll have to ask further questions to remind them of what to tell you. Also, always remember that any advice given on SEO is usually based on experience rather than hard facts, and may change over time as google changes its formula. Unless the person works at google's search engine department, there is no way to know if an advice is the best advice, nor if it will last forever.

        1. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          It just seems like it is best sine everyone is so attached to pcunix.  I have worked so hard.  I am techincally on holiday and I was just on break and doing research.  Besides I don't  think HP values my contributions and I am a professional. I would have never sunk to personal attacks.

          It seems like that is all the forum is about.  I was given the advice to "announce on G+" and the next thing I know I am being criticized and then pcunix writes an article about it.  I feel completely exploited and he is crying foul?  I didn't write an article about how more experienced hubbers give bad advice on forums to write articles to paste on G+.

          I am going to take your advice and breath and get some sleep and thinl about this.  I try to act professional on this site.  I am not certain I want to be associated with people who do not.  People will judge me by the company I keep.

          Thank you. You seem like a really decent person and I am only sorry our interactions had to be over this.

          I will only breath, sleep and reflect because this is not what I signed up for at all.

          Thank you for your kind words.


  14. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 12 years ago

    pcunix, I was afraid to walk the scary moors of the HubPages forums until some of your posts gave me some thicker skin. Please come back! I love hashing things out with you, whether it's over politics, helping a new user, HP policy (moar politics), and programming (even thought I'm L33t fail at it.)

    If you refuse to come back, however, I have a request... if it's not too much...will you write a hub about how I can further my programming education? I want to learn so much more but I'm in a damn rut with it and it's blatantly obvious you know more. I'm like in this between spot of beginner and ummm not a beginner (but still kind of sucky) and I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what my weak spots are and really where to go from here.

    1. Pcunix profile image90
      Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have honored your request.

  15. Rising Caren profile image79
    Rising Carenposted 12 years ago

    There are SEO tools on Google Chrome too, in case you're having issues with Firefox.

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for being the one and only person to answer my question.  And I am accused of not listening??

      That was all I desired.

      Thank you again.


  16. Dame Scribe profile image58
    Dame Scribeposted 12 years ago

    Hi JT, do not fret too much. These 'outbursts' of crying foul, etc., happens to many newbies many a time tongue it's not a pretty quality, I agree. I'd rather just leave a simple 'direct' them to help themselves rather than looking for easy and fast hmm even I flounder with seo and backlinking and I been here longer than you wink smile take a deep breath, don't dwell on it, smile. smile

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you I am very upset about this and I am considering completely leaving HP. My forum question was highjacked.  And then I followed advice which everyone thought was great only to be accused of link bombing for following advice which is OPINION.  There is no rule against anything I have done.  And I am tired of personal attacks.  It is completely unprofessional.

      I have to quit for a while if not forever.

      Thank youf or your kind words.  Newbies shouldn't be bashed as Right winged or train wrecks because they folow the advice of others on the forum.  What I have learned form this experience is never to follow another hubber but to just make my way on my own.

      I would write an article about it but then HP wouldn't be able to recruit new writers as no one would subject themselves to personal attacks when trying to better their work on HP.

      I will try not to dwell.  I will smile but I am shutting off the computer for quite a while as I am not a train wreck, I will not tolerate abuse, and I think it is horrific I have been exploited here on the forum.

      But that has nothing to do with you. Thank you for your kind words.   Still breathing.  Thanks. smile

      1. Lisa HW profile image61
        Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It's always unfortunate to see this kind of thing go on.  It's particularly unfortunate for someone like you who apparently (based on  your Hub about "three years of Hubs") had something like that whole week of "a pain" of going back and adding in all those Ad Sense codes after you wrote fifty (or maybe a hundred) Hubs without adding in the codes on them before you figured out how Ad Sense works.

        In any case, it's always unfortunate when someone runs into problems.

        To be perfectly candid, I'd agree with you that there are certainly things that go on in these forums that aim to exploit fellow Hubbers; but I don't happen to see that in the words of any of the people who have innocently tried to help you.  To me, they were a heck of lot more generous with information on this thread than I'd have even been.  I'd have just referred you to one of the many, many, web articles there are on all kinds of sites, and on this kind of subject (whether it's downloading Firefox or backlinking, which didn't really start out all that clear on this thread).

        It's very unfortunate that you've interpreted some things as "horrific" and "abuse". All I've ever seen (on this thread or any other that you've asked for info on things like traffic, etc.) have been people who very much have tried to help you.  As a doctoral candidate, surely you must know how much research time some of these people have tried to help you avoid.

        In any case, keep in mind that misunderstandings can happen and often blow over.   In any event, hope it blows over quickly for you and that you don't take any of all that seriously (but if you decide to leave HP, good luck).

        What I've seen on this site lots of times is that someone can have Hubs that are loaded with something like incorrect information or grammatical errors, and most Hubbers add nothing but positive feedback as comments.  In other words, a whole lot of people of this site are awfully supportive and overlook a whole lot of fairly questionable stuff.  Seeing what's either good information or else simple misunderstanding/misinterpretation of it turned into the implication that "everyone" has been "horrific" and "abusive" to you is just kind of surprising to me.  Goodness knows, everyone on this site has a different personality (and a whole lot of Hubbers aren't even who/what they appear to be anyway).  It's no wonder misunderstandings take place every once in awhile.  The one thing most people agree on, though, is that nobody particularly likes to see anyone else being exploited.

        1. JT Walters profile image71
          JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          First you have misquoted me I didn't say "everyone" has been horrific and abusive.

          Second it was quite clear i was asking for help downloading firefox.

          Third I don't see anything generous about about personal attacks which I have not resorted to or exploiting new members.

          Fourth, I work very hard at this so why would I subject myself to such abuses in the name of getting a thicker skin. How about some professionalism and knocking off the double ad fake identities?

          As a former PHD student what I do know is with the exception of a few people I have been given opinions and not facts about backlinking.  I also have been subject to everyone's opinions about what they think of me.  Here is a news flash, I am not doing this to be popular..

          This I know:

          1)  Personal attacks are abusive.
          2)  Members are being exploited on these forums by people who should really be focusing on their own work and not trying to establish themselevs as superior through the forums.
          3)  With the exception of a few people my question wasn't answered.
          4)  The forum was hijacked in the pursuit of G+ campaiging.
          5)  People should not pretend they know something as a fact when they aren't facts.
          6)  I should never be grateful for bad advice.
          7)  I overlook a lot as well and put up with quite a bit of ribbing before I responded.
          8)  And since I am the injured party that has been insulted and personally attacked unless you have something constructive to share please stay off this forum.
          9)  The unprofessional behavior that has occurred here is something I don't want to be associated with.
          10)  When people ask me for help I give it specifically and I give the facts not my opinion.

          It is indisputeable that I have been personally attacked, exploited, and suffered verbal abuse on this forum.  It is not open to interpretation.  Although again if anyone attacks you personally I will be certain to claim it isn't since you have treated me so kindly.

          What part of "Any suggestions on dowloading Firefox" do you not understand?  Or was it the Happy Hoidays that confused you?

          I have been made several other offers and I will spend my time investigating those.  But I will be certain to check out your profile and see who renders judgement on me again.

          1. Lisa HW profile image61
            Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It is incorrect that I have judged you in any way.   

            I don't judge anbody.  It's that simple, and I'm the one who ought to know because I'm the one who knows what was in my own head when I posted.   BUT, unrelated to this thread as your remark about checking out my profile would appear to be,  feel free.  It's there for all the world to see   That's how profiles work.

            I'm not sure what the heck "double ad fake identity" is, or why on Earth that would come out of this thread and out the the blue here..  I do know my own identity on here isn't fake in any way; so if you've referred to checking out the profile with the idea that you're going to find something fake in it somewhere - save your time.  You won't.  Most likely there are plenty of people who hate, like, or are indifferent to me, or whatever's on my profile; but nobody's ever going to find anything fake or inconsistent .  Honestly, I really don't get what would even make "fake" occur to you (unless, of course, you're just someone who thinks that "everyone" on the Internet is fake).

            Save any replies to my particular post.  Obviously, you prefer to imagine offense where there isn't any intended or else to be more offended than would generally be warranted even when offense is intended.  I'm suspecting there's the chance you may be thinking that a good forum "controversy" can be good for traffic; so I'm finished with this particular thread.  It's starting to come across as trollish (not saying you're a troll, of course - only saying that this thread has started to come  across that way).  As I said before, it's unfortunate if someone is truly hurt by things anyone else on an Internet forum says to him.  So, I sincerely wish you well whether you stay on this site or leave.

        2. capricornrising profile image60
          capricornrisingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm with Lisa. I'm a new hubber myself, I ask a lot of questions, genuinely looking for answers, and I respond best to folks who actually try to give me a solution, rather than treat me like a five year old whose hand needs to be slapped. You got slapped early in this forum, and not by Pcunix, who I read as genuinely trying to help you.

          Sometimes we forget that we come across differently in message boards and email (anything written rather than spoken) than we intend to. Body language, inflection, eye contact are lacking as sources to discern meaning. Maybe the rule for answerers is only to post directly to the question at hand, and refrain from lecturing the asker about their character, etc. We're not all technically oriented, and techspeak can be extremely overwhelming for an internet newbie or layperson.

          I guess my final advice to JT is this: I've decided to withhold doing anything at all if I don't understand it, and instead read as many articles, and as many different perspectives as I can on a subject, before I make a decision about what to do. I never believe the first thing anyone tells me, because I know there is no truth - only perspective. I read the forums and I also google information elsewhere in order to compare perspectives. Only after I think I understand the answer to my question do I make a decision about what to do. That practice might also be useful to you.

          If you do decide to leave, I hope you'll come back, perhaps under a different username, and start with a clean slate. I doubt HubPages would be happy to know that newbies (especially good writers/researchers) are being driven off by fed-up veterans who don't mean to do that, because in the end, this sort of practice also contributes to compromising HP's bottom line!

          1. IzzyM profile image85
            IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            What is this supposed to mean?

            I just read through this thread again to see it I missed something, and JT was given nothing but good advice right from the start.  And the topic was backlinking because that is the title she put on it, plus on her first question she asked was about both backlinking and downloading Firefox as if they are related!

            And she has thrown some wild accusations around, and managed to chase off a veteran and very useful hubber to have around, a man who has spent his lifetime working on the web and who knows a thing or two.

            HE SAID : It is OK to post a link to your new hub to Google +.
            SHE SAID HE SAID : It is OK to post 150 hubs to Google +!!

            I don't think so.

            This whole thing should have calmed down today and it hasn't. JT was given some great advice on this thread, but she seems to have chosen only to remember the things that she feels is a personal attack, but isn't.

            If I'm not mistaken, she is the one who has done the attacking, even with a few digs at Lisa, a few posts back from this one.

            Maybe it's the last time I'll bother helping someone on here?

            I don't want or need all this grief either!

            1. capricornrising profile image60
              capricornrisingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              It wasn't you either, Izzy M. Feel free to contact me directly if you need to continue this exchange further. Happy to elucidate, but I think this isn't the place to continue this.

              My request is that we all (posters and responders alike) answer questions directly, and not refer to behavior, which we may not really be able to understand, or read from a forum post.

              1. Pcunix profile image90
                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Then I have to assume you are blaming me.

                I don't think that's really deserved, but so be it.

                1. capricornrising profile image60
                  capricornrisingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Pcunix, my original post in this whole thread absolved you.

                  1. Pcunix profile image90
                    Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Ok.  Then I'm confused :-)

                2. capricornrising profile image60
                  capricornrisingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Good grief. I'm done. Unfollowing. Write me directly if you want to continue the conversation further, please. Let's get this nonsense off the boards.

          2. JT Walters profile image71
            JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you for your sage advice.  I have conducted some research myself and linkng ot G+ is not a forbidden practice but I didn't understand the issues with HP and Panda. 

            My slate is clean. I didn't attack anyone but asked a simple question which resulted in all kinds of unprofessional conduct. 

            But I do have other offers.  And it really doesn't make sense that veterans would run of new hubbers since it hurts the very organization the work for?

            A direct answer of here is the dowload link to firefox would have helped. That was all I was looking for in the post. I was completely unaware of the Panda debacle.  And again no one knows those searhc algorothims.  And even if you figure them out one day the parameters change over time.  So what is good SEO today is not so good tomorrow.

            All I wanted was to know how to download firefox so I could tell the diference between the "dofollow" links and the "don't follow links".

            And it was open season on the new person.

            I  appreciate all the kind people who have commented and understand that I had listened to advice.  I think Pcunix went ot far writing an article about this since he was involved and making money off it and posting the link to G+.  I noticed he didn't make any qualifications about it but just posted it.

            I am leaving this link myself now.  I have acted professional and have not attacked anyone despite the awful things vetern hubbers  have written about me.

            I did however report each and every person who made personal abusive attacks to HP as well as those who exploited me.  I don't think this is good for the site either. 

            I don't know what I will do as I would have never imagined just cruelty on a forum for writers.  It is bad enough I have to put up with it from commentors.  I would expect fellow hubbers to be more sensitive.

            I will follow you until I make my final decision.

            1. Pcunix profile image90
              Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this


              I was going to let all this foolishness  lie, but you have gone too far.

              I wrote that hub to help other people.    It's not likely to make any money - SEO is not a subject where it is easy to get any traction from Google.  I wrote it entirely to help people like you.

              What "qualifications" was I supposed to make?  I didn't mention you, I didn't link to this forum thread, I just said it was a newbie mistake.

              Sheesh!  Who needs this?  I don't.

              1. melbel profile image94
                melbelposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I write hubs all the time about themes/questions I see in the forums. I think that's part of what the forums are for, to inspire us. And people often write hubs to answer questions that I have. I love it when that happens, it makes me feel like I've inspired someone.

                I don't see pcunix's hub anymore, but he didn't say anything mean to you. I actually think he complimented you in the hub.

                The users thus far have been extremely helpful. It's almost as if you want everyone to say you're doing fantastic and you should just keep doing what you're doing. Not everyone is going to sugar-coat things.

                You say you're being attacked, but all I see is you picking apart everything people are saying and taking it as if we're trying to demonize you or something. I mean, heck, Lisa HW spent a lot of time writing a response that was nothing but REALLY nice, no meanness at all, trying to explain to you what's going on, and it's also all wrong.

                The only responses you agree with are the ones that are nothing but compliments and no cold-hard truth. And then when they users come back and give some cold hard truth, you respond with stuff like 'I thought we were friends' (paraphrasing here.)

                And seriously, I have to hand it to you. You have a billion more hubs than I and you could do really well here. Patience is part of that. Going back and making changes to hubs is part of that.

                On a side note, the backlinking thing, "should you do it?" there are a lot of opinions on this and yeah, Google hasn't told any of us personally the exact formula so we don't REALLY know. But with our experience, we're not fumbling in the dark on the proper way to get backlinks. If you are 'fumbling in the dark' as it seems you are, I would highly suggest that you don't get yourself backlinks. If you don't know SEO, don't do SEO. As you improve your hubs and get more traffic to them, you'll notice little nuances and patterns in your traffic, where your best NATURAL backlinks are coming from... work from there. It's never a good idea to throw up a bunch of hubs (I don't know how quickly you write) and then go look for backlinks if you don't have the on-page down (your hubs) and you have no idea what SEO is. And this isn't particularly pointed at you, but anyone new to writing for the Internet.

            2. capricornrising profile image60
              capricornrisingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Reporting your "abusers" might have been going too far, JT. I don't think anyone *intends* to run off anyone on HP, everyone believes they're trying to help. Again, sometimes we interpret others' words in ways they don't intend, and sometimes we inadvertently write in ways that don't mean what we intended. This is true for everyone.

  17. Mark Ewbie profile image81
    Mark Ewbieposted 12 years ago

    Phew.  I just read all through this in case I had been the one who had said something they shouldn't.

    Now I feel I SHOULD say something because I'm here.

    Oh yeah.

    There are no short cuts unless you absolutely know what you are doing.  Even then you are taking a chance.

    I honestly believe, and it has yet to happen to me, that ALL your work needs to be the best quality you can make it.  It needs to serve the searcher with a reward for finding you.  It needs to inform, engage and enlighten them.

    And IF they like it, and Google can measure that, then comes some reward.

  18. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 12 years ago

    I fail to see how you've been exploited.

  19. sunforged profile image72
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    hmm.. since you harped on it so many times ...

    This forum thread and your original post (OP) are a great example of how you may be inadvertently miscategorizing/poorly formatting your works to be understood by search engines.

    You keep saying your OP was about firefox...

    Yet .. your Title is : Backlinking

    your short message is:

    Hi everyone!  Happy Holidays!!

    I have been attempting to back link and i have been unable to download firefox.  Any suggestions?



    Your post isnt about firefox it has a stronger lean towards backlinking.

    if it was a hub - the search engine would think it was primarily about backlinking just as most of the readers here did.

    Plus, really ... you expected someone top give you a "download firefox" link!

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Forefox provides the "dofollow links versus the don't follow links".  It is a waste of time to link to a "don't follow" link or at least that is what my research has shown.  Therefore Firefox does have something to do  with back the best of my research.

      Firefox is free I would share the link to help a fellow writer.  But I understand that others would not.

      1. sunforged profile image72
        sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Writing online involves knowing how to use a search engine. I refuse to believe anyone could have any issue finding out how to download firefox. One types, "firefox" into a search engine .. done ..

        Do you see how your post didnt communicate what you thought it did? look at some of the low performing hubs .. do the titles strictly match the content, do your headers/tags and images have similar descriptive terms that describe a cohesive and singular purpose in the article?

        The crux of most your recent questions is really ... "i have a ton of content that I put a lot of effort into ... yet I make a pittance in return"

        - You really got enough and the right answers already , now the balls in your court - to act!-

        some notes:

        Its dofollow/nofollow

        Firefox has nothing to do with backlinking. It is a browser, it converts html code into a visual display.

        If you still havent been able to download firefox, perhaps explain what is making such a basic process difficult for you.

        Many browsers have additional add-on functionality. Every major browser has a means to identify whether a page has  the nofollow attribute.

        Im willing to explain to someone why they may want to tie their shoes, but im sure as hell not going to bend over and do it. If that was really necessary, I would suggest getting velcro shoes and avoiding any further hills

      2. Pcunix profile image90
        Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Your conclusion is incorrect.

        If your outbound link provides value to the reader, it is most definitely NOT a waste of time, no matter what its attributes.

        I don't know what you read, but it was either completely wrong or you misunderstood it.

        And I would add that if your link does NOT provide value to your readers, you shouldn't be doing it.

        1. sunforged profile image72
          sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this
          1. IzzyM profile image85
            IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That's gross! LOL

          2. melbel profile image94
            melbelposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Now that's what I call a backlink!

  20. R-J-T profile image61
    R-J-Tposted 12 years ago

    Seo is a game that everyone does differently and each person you take advice from will tell you something different. The reason for this is because google uses 100s of factors to rank pages that they do not tell anyone.

    If you want to know whether something works or not then just test it and see if it works.

    Want to know if backlinks are effective? Then spend a few months only backlinking your hubs.

    Want to know if social bookmarking works? Do it and see what happens.

    There are a few things such as placing keywords into your titles etc that even Google says you have to do if you want good rankings, but other than that and good site structure the rest is just a matter of testing to see what works then adjusting for the maximum benefits if it does, or if not stop doing it.

    Seo can be as complicated or as simple as you want it to be.

    Regards Rob Thomas

    1. JT Walters profile image71
      JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for the clarification.


  21. JT Walters profile image71
    JT Waltersposted 12 years ago

    In the forum rules it clearly states personal attacks and threats will be dealt with swiftly.  It also states bickering will be dealt with swiftly.

    I know everyone thinks I don't read but I did read the rules before entering into this forum.  And rules have been broken.  Why would I listen to anyone who bickers and makes perosnal attacks?

    Why would anyone be involved with any of the people who have engaged in this type of activity which is clearly aagainst the rules?

    Really I may quit HP as I wouldn't want to be associated with people who break rules and act completely unprofessional. 

    For all of you that have broken the rules, you have been reported.  And for those of you who were decent and kind through this thank you.  If i stay it willbe because of the decency, kindness and professionalism that was shown to me during ordeal.

    1. Pcunix profile image90
      Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Nobody threatened you or made any personal attack.

      Bickering will be dealt with swiftly? :-)

      What that means is that an admin will close a thread that has reached the point where nobody is saying anything useful.

      1. JT Walters profile image71
        JT Waltersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I thought you were staying off the forum because it was too emotionally painful for you?  I guess you kind of fibbed about that yesterday right?  That is absolutely not true.  I have been been personally attacked by your buddies and they have been reported.  I wish all of you experts who read everything would read the rules before making personal attacks, bickering and exploiting new members.

        I am glad you think this is funny because i certainly don't laugh at forum rules.

        1. Pcunix profile image90
          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Attacked by my buddies?

          I'm not sure who you think my buddies are, but some of the people who tried to correct your misunderstandings are people who have little use for me, in fact.

          How have you been exploited?  Are you still thinking that because I published a hub designed to help people who might make the same mistake you did that you were somehow exploited?  Do you recall that your name was not attached to it in any way?

          A smiley is not 'laughing at you".  I was merely mildly amused that you seem to think people can't disagree here and that you need to report people.  Whether you can understand or not, that is amusing.

          You need to relax.  In a few months you'll look back at all this and be embarrassed at how silly you have been toward people who really were trying to help you.  By then you will have realized that and you will also realize that we will have not only let it be over, but we will all be happy to answer whatever questions you have then.

          In short, chill.  You are getting excited about nothing.

  22. sunforged profile image72
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    Yuck, sad , grrr and yuck again

    This thread was vexing.

    1. rmcrayne profile image90
      rmcrayneposted 12 years agoin reply to this


  23. rmcrayne profile image90
    rmcrayneposted 12 years ago

    JT, I get it that you feel attacked.  And I feel for you on that.  I’ve looked at some of your more personal hubs, and you certainly have been through some difficult times, the likes of which most of us will thankfully never know.  You’re obviously a very strong person.  You are more than your profile, and more than your current forum persona (as are all of us). 

    You’ve quite prolific, and I think you do have the potential to earn on HubPages, but it will take a long time.  We don’t have to be tech savvy like sunforged to earn money online, but it will be less money, and it will take a long time.  At the one year mark, I had about 200 hubs, and had started making about $100 per month.  Now at 2+ years, with about the same number of hubs (but not exactly the same hubs), I am making about 4 times that much.  I no longer try to backlink, and do not tweet, G+, Facebook or anything else.  Partly because I wouldn’t know what I was doing, and partly because my “real jobs” get in the way and I don’t have time. 

    As far as the train wreck analogy:  You seem to take off on the wrong track sometimes.  Other times you steam full speed into what could be a disastrous direction.  On your previous thread, and in the beginning on this one, you graciously thanked hubbers for input, said you were listening and doing, but your comments and reports of what you are doing indicated otherwise.  I think you are impatient, as many of us are.  I certainly still am.  And I think maybe you are trying to do too much too soon.  Believe me, I did this when I first retired from the Air Force.  I was manically creative in my head, dividing my energy in so many different directions, and making progress on virtually none. 

    Please stop lashing out.  Try to take break, and come back later to this and other threads and try to hear what we are all saying.  To delete your hubs and walk away would be cutting off your arm (worse than your nose) to spite your face.  Given your bad forum experience, I have a suggestion.  Why not reach out to specific hubbers that you trust (through HP contact option), and ask specific advice?  Like, “Given my current inexperience, what would be the single best area I could focus my efforts?”  Or ask for feedback on specific hubs.  And don’t dismiss out of hand if some of your perceived enemies from this thread comment on your hubs.  I for one would try to be specific and constructive. 

    I wish you peace.

    1. Pcunix profile image90
      Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Very good advice. Maybe she will listen to you,

  24. psycheskinner profile image82
    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    Backlinks are just links to your hub.  The best way to get thing is to write great hubs that people links to because they find them entertaining and/or useful.

    Firefox is a browser.  Anyone can download it any time. 

    The two issues are not connected in any way.


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