Sorely Disappointed

1. 68

   Moonmaidenposted 13 years ago

   I'm sorely disappointed in Hubpages right now.  On Wed. night I stayed up until 3 AM helping a friend of mine join Hubpages. He already had Google Adsense so I thought I was starting him on a path to more earnings.
   
   I hold his hand while he creates his first hub. It's an intro hub. It has some text, a video, some links, etc.
   
   The next day I go to see if he's written anything new and the hub is gone.
   
   So I write to him and he says "yeah the (bleep) took it down because its unoriginal or something like that.."
   
   http://hubpages.com/profile/blakenetizen
   I know we have to flag hubs and so forth, but shouldn't we give a brand new person at least 2 weeks to learn the ropes? I'm not sure if a person flagged him or the system flagged him, but it's just not right and I won't be inviting any other writers here.

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      Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Anyone can work on a hub and improve it without publishing a rough draft. I'm sure your friend is serious about writing here, and if so, then this little setback is just that, and nothing else. Learn and improve and keep going!

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      Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      To save time, just scroll down to the bright blue box.

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2. 61

   dingdondingdonposted 13 years ago

   That's a real pity. If he's open to writing more hubs I'd love to know more about his artwork? I've been looking at some of the pieces in his Etsy shop and they're fascinating, I'd be interested to learn the process behind how he creates them, what inspires them, etc.

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3. 0

   lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago

   It's not just your friend, many hubbers who are well seasoned are facing the same. New hubbers need to be prepared to go the extra mile and educate themselves to what has happened and look at all the aspects of what hubpages is trying to do here. It isn't personal by any means, it is plain and simply that the standards of what will and will not be accepted have changed a bit.
   
   Have your friend check out the learning center, the terms, study other hubs, etc before jumping in with an intro hub that may be classified as too personal, or of low quality. All of us here have got to step up our game.

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4. 61

   logic,commonsenseposted 13 years ago

   One of the problems here is that there are a few zealots who think someone died and made them god.  They are vigilantes on a mission and by god if they think someone is in the way of their making a penny then 'off with their heads'!
   Cheap, crass, obviously copied or duplicate material does need to be eliminated.  Is the baby being thrown out with the bath water?  My first impression of this site was that in part it was an incubator for writers.  How many of us write the perfect hub the first time?  How many have improved their writing skills by learning from critique?  How can you get constructive critique if your hub is deleted in a day or two?
   Perhaps the solution as one has suggested is to have an incubation period of 30 days or whatever.  That way a hub could be published, the author receive input, take appropriate action or then if it were still substandard, it would be deleted.
   There is a lot of crap being published, but there are those that are making an honest effort.  Let's not discourage those, as they could be the next JK Rowling.  They may help the entire group become more profitable in the long run if they are
   encouraged and aided to become better.
   Let those who are without sin be the first to throw the stone.  Or something like that.

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   1. 62

      Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      God has nothing to do with HP. Google does.
      
      Again, you can develop a great hub by setting it up and leaving it unpublished, come back to it, improve it and then finally when it's ready and meets all of TOS, hit the publish button. If you have questions about what is low quality, or if it will be flagged, there is tons of help in the resource center for you to work through and learn for yourself. Making excuses that you need it to "sit" as a published hub for a couple of weeks is no longer valid because of what Google is doing to penalize what IT considers as low quality, etc. You have to be stronger and faster from the get-go.
      
      You can post your link when it's published to Extreme Hub Make Over, and get some responses, and as usual, still improve the quality of your hub at any time. How can it get better than that?!
      
      So complaining about someone playing God doesn't help anyone understand how to create quality hubs with the new Google algo. Adapt or pay the consequences that Google has created.

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   2. 68

      lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Wow. Sounds like you've got a little bit of a chip on your shoulder, eh?
      
      No matter what someone flags, NOTHING HAPPENS TO A HUB -- NOTHING -- unless the hub violates HP's TOS or other rules, is duplicated or stolen, contains only personal, blog-like junk or is so badly spun, mangled or spelled that you can't make heads nor tails out of what the author is trying to say. And even then, the flagger has no control over what happens. None. It's up to the HP team to decide what to do.
      
      Anyone who is now seeing their hubs unpublished isn't following the rules -- either the old or the new ones. And the HP team and other hubbers are more than happy to work with those hubbers to tweak their hubs so that they are publishable -- kind of like the scenario you describe.
      
      If you would like to see how the process goes, feel free to flag any or all of my hubs. I believe they are all in compliance with the rules. So go ahead -- flag them. Invite your friends and family to flag them. Again -- unless they violate rules, your flagging won't hurt anything. And if one or more of mine aren't up to what HP wants, it would certainly bring it to my attention and give me a chance to fix it. It's certainly not the end of the world or worthy of going out and calling people names.

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         Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That's correct. Flagging a Hub is not the same as moderating it. Only moderators can unpublish a Hub. Flagging only asks a moderator to take a look, but moderation only happens when the Hub, in fact, violates a rule.
         
         This has been clarified trillions of times, but I suppose it will always bear repeating...

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            lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I was thinking of having it tattooed on my forehead. Whaddya think?

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               Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               "Please check the FAQ" might be more concise, in that case.

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                  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  

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                     Michael Willisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Make sure to add the Link to Hubpages with that Tattoo!

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      Sophia Angeliqueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      @Logiccommonsense... "Let's not discourage those, as they could be the next JK Rowling."
      
      Seriously???
      
      The guy's hub would not have been eliminated if there wasn't something seriously wrong with it.
      
      HP is NOT on a witch hunt. While it's possible (not probable) that a few hubbers might flag a couple of things inappropriately, they do not have the ability to remove it.  That is a business decision taken by HP.
      
      Also, I'm curious why so many people think that writing online at various places is supposed to be 'a place where one can learn to write.'
      
      Actually, one is supposed to learn to write at school. By the time one wishes to write publicly, one should be able to do so.

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         lynnechandlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Sophia, I don't always agree with you, but on this yes, yes, yes, and amen.

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            Sophia Angeliqueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            

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         Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Not sure if I agree with that particular part, Sophia - there is a lot more to writing than what you learn at school. Putting your work online attracts feedback and suggestions, which is all part of the process of becoming a better writer. I have seen many writers on HP learn and flourish - that is what kept me on this site.
         
         The same goes for ESL - I know many non-native speakers of English who have mastered their command of the language through sites like HP. I would hate to pull up the drawbridge and say HP is only for people with 'perfect' English - there are many pro-writers on HP who are only to help mentor and guide budding writers as they learn how to write. Some of these budding writers have gone on to write books

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            Sophia Angeliqueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Nevertheless, HP did not go into business in order to give wannabe writers a venue in which to learn to write.
            
            Their business model, as far as I can see, is for writers to write content that generates an income, both for HP and for the writers.

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               Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               When I started here, they actively encouraged people to 'learn to write.' The site was much richer for it - we had a thriving community of writers supporting and helping each other. If HP goes down the route of 'income-orientated' content only, then it really will deserve the title, 'Content Farm!'
               
               Anyway, it is past 4am in Greece and I must go to bed. Goodnight

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               1. 68

                  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Sufi -- I think the spammers effectively took care of that ideal. As soon as they starting hitting HP hard, across-the-board rules had to be put in place. It's not as simple as posting a "No Spammers Allowed" shingle on the door. What they came up with inevitably hurt some of those folks with a genuine interest in learning how to write online. There was just no way around it.
                  
                  The nice thing at HP is that you have to really go out of your way to get banned. Someone who gets unpublished for one reason or another is free to tweak, ask for help in the forums and try again until they get it right.

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                     Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I believe there is plenty of room for both marketers and writers on HP (although most of us do a bit of both!). I accept that it is impossible to please everybody all of the time - the spammers hurt us all!
                     
                     Over the past couple of weeks, the HP staff have gone out of their way to reassure creative writers and poets that they are welcome. That is good enough for me

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                        frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        There is Sufi, always has been. I don't deny writing for income but I also enjoy taking a day off and simply writing for the pleasure of it.
                        
                        One thing that does get me though, the flak that some hubbers receive because they're trying to earn money. For some of us (me and you are perfect examples) this is how we make a living, this is our job.
                        
                        We're not looking for a fast buck or an easy life (we wish huh?!), we work hard, often for less money than most other would earn by the hour and we're making an honest living.
                        
                        Maybe that does smack of muddying the pure waters relating to the term 'writer' but that's how it is. Not everyone gets lucky enough to be J K Rowling and earn millions for their efforts.
                        
                        I bet me and you and others like us have written the equivalent of a small libray by now and have yet to reach the lofty heights of calling ourself well off!

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                           Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           That is the other side of the coin, and it is a perfectly fair point. That harks back to the days when fiction and non-fiction writers used to regard other with aloof disdain!
                           
                           I have encountered people who think that, unless you have written a book, you are not a 'real' writer - I am sure that thousands of freelance writers, technical writers, academic writers, content writers et al. would disagree!
                           
                           For me, being a writer has no relation to whether you make money or write creatively; it is about whether you have the ability to manipulate language. As an example, some of the people we regard as 'marketers' on HP are also talented writers. Knowles knows how to play an audience, and Sunforged can throw together some lovely prose when he is in the mood!

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                              frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Ahhh lol MK has made me laugh out loud on occassion and sunforged always leaves me feeling informed.
                              
                              If I had my way I just write short, pointless stories, oozing with sarcasm and irony. In fact look out for my coming best seller Courting Advice For Boring People - How To Appear Interesting Even Though You're As Dull As The Dark Side Of The Moon
                              
                              

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                           2. 68

                              Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              You are right, there is room for us all Sufidreamer. And most of the writers I know are pretty eclectic and like to write in many different genres.

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                  Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  We still do. We even built a Learning Center to share "best practices", opened up an "Extreme Hub Makeover" forum, and hold quarterly contests. We've supported Hubber-initiated efforts, such as the HubMob, and the Dark and Stormy Night contest.
                  
                  Most of us who write on HubPages write better now than we did when we first joined, especially for a Web audience.

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                     Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  yes, I think it will be sad if it goes down that route.

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      3. 82

         Rafiniposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         @Logiccommonsense... "Let's not discourage those, as they could be the next JK Rowling."
         
         Seriously???
         
         Yes, seriously.
         
         Logic,commonsense was referring to those that are making an honest effort.  Unless you think HP should be for sales oriented writing only.....

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            Sophia Angeliqueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            @Rafini.
            
            I was amused.
            
            Talent of the kind that JK Rowling has shows up pretty early. All talent does, regardless of whether one is a dancer, singer, writer, artist or anything else. Ever see little kids of three or four sing and dance? The reason is that they are born with that talent.
            
            The gift of the written word shows up by the time one is nine or ten years old. Teachers notice it immediately.
            
            In other words, no one is going to 'learn to write' on HP or anywhere else and turn out to be the next JK Rowling.
            
            Incidentally, it is well known within industry and university circles that when one does things like creative writing degrees, one either already has the 'gift' before one gets there, or one doesn't cut it.

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5. 64

   SandyMcCollumposted 13 years ago

   Because of Google's algo change we need to only publish quality hubs. If his hub had information that's somewhere else on the 'Net, then it would be flagged or removed. We can't give all new hubbers two weeks to prove themselves or we'd have so much more crap on here. If ppl want to write for money, they need to learn how. Sorry that happened to your friend. Tell him to work on it some more and try again.

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      Ritsosposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      " If his hub had information that's somewhere else on the 'Net"
      
      Wouldn't that be called research ?  (as long as it's not blatently copied) ..

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         Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         "Research" and copying content are two completely different things. Research does not involve copying anything. It involves studying, and then stating information learned in a fresh perspective, based on your own writing voice.
         
         Otherwise, G will penalize you.
         
         Period.

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            Ritsosposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            correct :-)

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         camloposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         "If you steal from one author it's plagiarism; if you steal from many it's research." Wilson Mizner
         
         "If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism. If you steal from two, it's research." John Burke

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      logic,commonsenseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Who made you or anyone else here besides the owners, an expert on quality?  Are we focusing on quality just because of the algo change or should we have been focusing on quality all along so the change had lesser impact?
      If this site becomes all about greed and monetization then it just becomes another commercial website without character or depth. I always thought Hubpages was at a higher level.  Hope I am not wrong. I don't like to see a lot of the crap that gets published here and a lot of it needs to be deleted, but to indiscriminately eliminate hubs on a preconceived whim does a disservice to all the writers and more importantly readers.  Without readers there is no income.  If we all publish the same claptrap about some inane product or service under the guise of providing information, but is just a blatant commercial, what is the quality in that?

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6. 41

   Ritsosposted 13 years ago

   Does seem a little harsh without seeing the hub as it's obviously about an original subject .... probably just needs to check for sufficient text etc etc

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7. 68

   Moonmaidenposted 13 years ago

   Wow did this thing ever spin out of control.  How many of us would still be here if our first hub got squashed within hours of writing it?
   
   When did this become a site where only professional writers out to make money were trying to eradicate everyone else?
   
   When people are getting their feet wet here they are not going to sit on an unpublished hub fussing over it to perfect it when they don't even know if they are going to find the site useful or not. No one is going to read twenty tutorials on how to make the perfect Hub before they've even published a single hub.
   
   Everyone is in a panic because of the new Adsense algorithms, but it's become a witch hunt it seems. If this isn't a user friendly place both for writers and readers, people will just stop coming here.
   
   And no one ever said my friend had duplicate content. How did that even get thrown into the mix?

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      Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Moonmaiden, it happens a lot!  Every day, hundreds of people join HubPages for all the wrong reasons, and publish non-complying Hubs - so the HubPages team keep an especially keen eye on Hubs published by newbies.  The aim is to stop the spammers when they've only written one Hub, not 50. 
      
      I'm not suggesting your friend is a spammer but there is obviously something in the Hub which isn't adequate somehow.
      
      
      
      Nor should they.  No one is saying it has to be perfect!  But there are a few basic things that have to be there - a decent amount of content, for instance.  Perhaps there wasn't enough text to accompany the images?  I'm surprised he could have tripped up when he had you helping him.
      
      
      
      Because you said it. You said it was "something about unoriginal content". In a HubPages context, "unoriginal" is duplicate.  And duplicate content is not allowed on HubPages under the new rules.  Did he have any of the material already published elsewhere?

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      1. 68

         Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No he didn't.  I think 'unoriginal' was just the first word in a long sentence that is common when something trips the system.

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8. 66

   Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago

   We really don' have enough information.  What was it that prompted the automatic unpublishing of that first hub?  It sounded fine.  The only thing I could think of is the word count was too low.  Now there is a minimum word count for informational hubs, I think.  And if it was creative, perhaps it was put in the wrong category.

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      Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, I'm sure something like that happened.

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9. 61

   Jason Menayanposted 13 years ago

   I took a look at Moonmaiden's friend's Hub, and it was not taken down for unoriginal content, but because it's purely-personal content ("Hi, my name is... I like to..." etc). That is not allowed under our content policy:
   http://hubpages.com/faq/#substandard
   
   As we messaged in the email to him, he shouldn't take that personally. We are simply maintaining our standards. He can fix his Hub, bring it up to our standards, and have it republished.
   
   Most of us have had some of our Hubs moderated, especially with the new standards in place (myself included!). We should see it as a challenge and an opportunity to only have the best content under our name.

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      KCC Big Countryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I like the blue box! That's something new.  HP staff should always have that!  (I know you have the little H)...but I like the blue!

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         Michael Willisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Draws attention to the Top Dawgs!!!

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      Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I hope you saw this, Moonmaiden.  You should know by now, that HubPages isn't a blog, and the place to tell other Hubbers about yourself is your profile. 
      
      I hope you'll get over your upset and also persuade your friend to give it another try.

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         Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         LOL how could I miss it Marisa, you can see that blue box from the moon.

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      Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for clarifying that Jason.

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      Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I doubt he'll be back but I'll pass that blue text on to him.

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    wildernessposted 13 years ago

    And there is your answer, Moonmaiden; you helped your friend create a good blog on HubPages.  One that is inappropriate for the type of place HP is (there are many other locations for writing blogs) and one that you should, after 4 years, know is inappropriate.
    
    You indicate that it was an "intro" blog.  Some personal information is fine on the profile page - your friend might consider placing some of that information there and write an informative hub about some subject that he is knowledgeable about.  It sounds like you have made a good start with him, teaching photos, capsules, etc. - put that training to good use and make a useful hub from it!

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11. 0

    Nelle Hoxieposted 13 years ago

    The new contest is a perfect example of that. I read the rules and am actually planning on writing several hubs for it. (If I can get my hubs edited in time.) It'll be fun for me to see how my non-product hub writing is received by the impressive panel of judges.

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    rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago

    Very, very true! We become better writers by writing.  I've also been very enriched by reading the amazing hubs written by so many different kinds of writers. HP is a great example of a mini global community. I hope it stays this way.

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    skyfireposted 13 years ago

    Technical Topics and Product copies often lack clarity for average reader, so i'm learning to write with clarity.

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    Mark Ewbieposted 13 years ago

    Just venting.
    
    I'm not on a witch hunt, tbh I can't be bothered.  There's 500,000 pages of rubbish out there (maybe) - d'ya think I'm going to check them all?  For upping my Adsense from 1 to 2 cents a day?
    
    Better things to do in life.
    
    But I am getting fed up with people complaining that their sub standard, whoops, sorry, non compliant hub gets unpublished.
    
    Er. It's non compliant right?  You get an explanation right?  You can check the quality you're up against... right?
    
    I have been flagged, second hub it was, and I made it better and got it published again.  It has never and will never make a cent hub anyway.
    
    It didn't stop me writing, didn't put me off and to be brutally honest - if it had no one would have missed anything. I am probably not the next JK Rowling.
    
    Like I say - just venting.  Carry on.
    
    edit: I forgot the plug.  "Happy Potter and the Tree of Pointless Mystery" - is my latest masterpiece.
    
    Not really.

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       cheapsk8chickposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hey, you stole the title to my novel!

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       Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Wow this is the most attention I ever got in the forums. If it's true that all publicity is good publicity then I'm making out like a bandit.

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          Moonmaidenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Jason, with all due respect Hubpages has often promoted itself as a place to BLOG such as is mentioned in this article: http://www.thespinningdonut.com/so-you- … -hubpages/  I've seen many ads over the years inviting people to come to Hubpages to blog.

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             Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             We didn't write that article.
             
             And besides, there are purely-personal blogs and there are topical blogs with informative value. The latter are compliant with our rules.

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    sunforgedposted 13 years ago

    I dont understand why "Bill's" article on Hubpages from 2008 could be translated as "Hubpages promoting itself"
    
    Is Bill an ex-staff member? Is that an official notice?
    
    *didnt see Jason's response as I was commenting from the feed - but will leave it to point out that it doesnt take a staff member to notice that your example never had any relevance*
    
    When I first started here my creative work was flagged and unpublished, so I left in a huff for 3 or 4 months and just kept the content up at Urbis.com which is a writing community that has built in peer review with no earning facilities. (and coincidentally shut down without notice and lost everyone's content a few months back!)

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    rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago

    I'm glad you made this clarification, Jason, because I think often people associate 'blog' with personal ramblings. Maybe it should have been another blue box post.

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       Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I can't seem to make them blue retroactively! But, yes.

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