The Trinity - fact or fiction?

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Baileybearposted 13 years ago
http://www.yrm.org/trinity-fact-fiction.htm
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Pure fiction.
  God is three separate persons. Illogical nonsense.
  
  If God is omnipresent he dwells in Heaven and is present on the Earth simultaeneously. So the Holy Spirit is a term used when referring to His presence on the Earth. Not some separate person but His spirit.
  Similarly Jesus is a term used when referring to His presence on the Earth in the flesh.
  Jesus is God Himself. There us no need for a trinity.
  
  The trinity was not invented until the Church wanted a sop to the pagan Constantine in exchange for making Christianity the official religion of the empire.
  
  Hear oh Israel the lord our God, our God is one. I am the lord God, besides me ther is no other. I will not give my glory to another. If you gave known be you have known the father. Before Abraham, I am.
  
  The trinity is redundant.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  if the trinity is fiction, then did god die when jesus died?
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God came in the flesh so that manifestation of God died.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so father and holy spirit survived? Sounds like trinity doctrine
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  mecheilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  long story to tell, i really hope i can ask constantine to answer the issue. one thing i know, jesus was firstborn, not someone who is equal to the creator. he prayed to god. he was sent by god. did what god told him to do. raised by god. placed to the right of god's throne. seems to me, jesus is not god at all. and seems to me, holy spirit is missing in action in the topic of positions/thrones.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________________
  You are correct. He stated many times that the words he spoke was not about him, but the Father.
  That he could do nothing on his own.
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Bailey for the link. I shall have to read this tomorrow. Unfortunately it's midnight and I've had a couple very strong English ales.
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  mathsciguyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Come now, baileybear...
  
  What do you think, eh? You sower of discord, you.
  
  ;-)
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  this link was on a Facebook page of a christian (who is looking at messianic jewish beliefs) - I didn't have to look for it
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  FICTION
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  groups that don't believe in the trinity include mormons, jehovah witnesses
  
  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_all_Christ … he_Trinity
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Jewish don't believe in a trinity (except those in America called the Messianic Jews. and the Oneness Protestants don't.
  
  I certainly don't
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  add oneness pentecostals to that list
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's disappointing about the messianic Jews. I assumed that of all the church spectrum they would be amongst the more switched on.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I find all religion to be lacking.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________
  Well not all of them do but most.
  
  Some just accept Yahshua as the Messiah. So there are a few that are OK
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  Apostle Jackposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is not 3 persons and it is not 3 Gods.It is from the father through the son and by the holy spirit.The misinterpretation of this have cause most to believe that Christ is God,when in fact he is a SPIRITUAL SON. He came from heaven as a spirit.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Fiction or BS, take your pick.
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knolyourselfposted 13 years ago
From wikipedia: "The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्ति trimūrti) is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer,"
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
Many pagan religions had multiple gods. The Romans had multiple deities.
The God of the hebrews is one God, as disappearinghead has quoted and there are so many more besides that one.
Jesus is the name for God in the flesh. Since the Hebrews had lost the name of God previously, part of the reason for the birth of jesus gave them a new name to call him by. God has a lot of names.
The Holy Spirit is also God. Its not a separate name for a separate person, it is also God.
And of course God is God. Jehovah is God. El shadai is God
The bible loves to personify things, even wisdom who cries in the streets. No reason to think wisdom is a person.

One God, many names.
no trinity
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yet you've just described the trinity
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no i didn't
  not in any way shape or form
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so god just changes from spirit to flesh?
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  lynnechandlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I read this and all I could think of was the human form of Dracula turning into mist. Wonder if that was the basis for this fictional character?
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  don't make me laugh. Pagans worship trees and special places. A pick and mix set of beliefs with no structure. Believe what you want, make it up as you go along.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yet, that's essentially what all religions do - they just evolve & then someone rejects a teaching, so forms a new sect
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  agree Bailey, I think you are dead on here
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  new revelations occur all the time. This is how the church and people of God grow.
  To me whether someone agrees or doesn't is neither the issue or matter. The understanding i have suits me fine and i am okay with it. If someone else likes it too then cool.
  I believe in one God. I believe God filled the person (body) of jesus and i believe that what christendom claims to be a person in the Holy Spirit is God and not a separate personified entity at all.
  One God.
  I don't even believe that jesus is walking around in heaven but that he shirked the body he raised from the tomb and melded spiritually with the father. Will he use it again on his return, i think so. Is it hanging in a closet? no. There have been other incarnations of God, 4th person in the fire of daniel, the angels of lot, melchizedek, to name a few. Are these bodies all hanging out somewhere? no.
  I got stuck when people said Jesus was alive back in the beginning and i thought, not jesus but some other form, because Jesus was born at the end of the Old testament, 1 a.d. if u like. Maybe this helps, i can say that melchizedek was before christ.
  I am fine with this.
  I'm not making a doctrine of it.
  For me it works.
  God doesn't work with people because all their beliefs are completely on the mark. Some believe in a snake in a tree that talked and God is fine with them believing that.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Seems you provide ample reason for the belief in gods as something a believer wants to believe as opposed to what a god would offer to believe.
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  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You act like God owes you something.
  
  I guess you created that air you breathe..
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  nope.
  I know who created air
  I know what created your hot air
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you admit to being a w@nker who pretends to speak for an immortal, all knowing, creator of the universe ???
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't that the purpose of being Christian? If ever knowing about God was impossible then there would be no purpose. Jesus died on the cross to make the way of both God to man and man to God more accessible than the previous dispensation.
  I admit that God is immortal, all knowing and creator of the universe
  As to the rest of your post, i sincerely hope that you are not judging me by the things that you do.
  Thankyou for your post.
  Practice makes perfect as you probably know.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How can anyone promote themselves to mouth-piece of a god! With no evidence for the existence of such a being, no evidence that even the prophets or jesus himself ever actually existed except one source, how do you jump out of that with telling others what god thinks, what god wants, what others should do etc. The only thing you have any right to do is to live your own life in the manner dictated in your book that is supposed to be in emulation of jesus.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, a shred of evidence for his existence.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  fancy words
  but how would you know
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Simple, one just has to read your posts and read the bible.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  but you don't comprehend what you read
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was in reference to what bailey said about people twisting the book and re-making it with a new version (Thier own version) of it.
  
  What you believe, please continue contine on, it is of no matter. The comment was not about you or wheither you personaly care about what others believe.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  odd indeed.
  the present interpretations of the bible via the church are not good enough for you and you are as condemning about any newness of interpretation. I perceive you are stuck.
  As i have said before, what people believe in their faith is good for them.
  What i believe in my faith is good for me.
  The only twisting of the book that is detrimental is, if it draws a person away from correctness. Jesus is God, God is spirit, the two are one and this is how i see it.
  My message did not alter salvation and salvation of all people everywhere is the Gospel. This is what we are specifically told to preach, all other information is neither here nor there or as important as salvation by repentance through the cross of Christ.
  I enjoy my version and this will be a stumblingblock everytime people hear things that are new.
  Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
  If you are just going to lean to your own understanding of which end it seems is just to refute and even criticize, then you will never learn a new thing, ever.
  Another reason why God left us His book.
  enjoy
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  seems you don't have a clue about your own doctrines
  
  trinity =the belief that 3 persons (father, son, holyspirit) make up god, but are not each other
  
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions … ty_1.shtml
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  more like you don't have a clue about my doctrines.
  Read it again, slowly this time.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no need to be condescending. Just because you think you have made yourself clear ,doesn't mean you have
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure your comment about my 'not having a clue about my own doctrines' was meant to be uplifting, but lets ignore that, shall we.
  I reread my comment, i think it is quite clear.
  
  anyway i said what i said. Lets not quibble about what it means. If you don't get it, its not that important to me.
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  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing is clear to you Bailey...
  
  Review the threads for your explanation requests..
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how can things be clear when people insist on contradicting themselves?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  interesting how you used 'it' for holy spirit
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Chan man,
  I am under the understanding Creator has no name.
  To reference: Moses asks Creators name. Creator replies: ehyeh asher ehyeh -- meaning I am who I am; whom I choose to be.
  
  Names are stigmas; Names are for pagans; Names create gods or representations of gods. What does Creator need a name for again?
  
  James.
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  lynnechandlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How are names for Pagans? We didn't write the bible, but yet the name God comes from the bible. Interesting!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  bible?? That's funny.
  Pagans design names for things -from nature or the cosmos and call them gods, yes? Only fitting the ba`al worshipers of literature do the same. Ever read Shakespeare or Gaiman? Chock full of names. Chock full of paganism.
  
  Actually the name "God" is not a name, but an attribute of a persona defined by its practical relevance. Example: Y`ova Yirah -a name attributed to the god that provides. Ra, the one who warms the sky. Lucifer the horned one, Earth, Athos, Diana, Green Man, Litha, Zeus, Mars, etc etc etc. Most are not of the "Bible". But yes, Torah is chock full of pagan attributes regarding Creator, as Judaism incorporated much ba`al into its mysticism, as history records. Most prominent in Babylonian history and captivity.
  
  James.
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lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triquetra More on the Pagan aspect.
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lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago
Ok, so according to you there is this great mystical creator out there that is just whoever he wants to be, really?

I will agree there is pagan symbolism in Shakespeare, but I do believe that is fiction and was a product of the creators mind at the time of writing based on myths of the times.

The others I admit to having no knowledge of, but you clearly stated that this creator had no name and names that came were a stigma were for pagans, etc. So, I really don't see your point. I know in the pagan culture that there are many names given to various gods and goddesses for different reasons, but they aren't the only ones who do this. Native American culture also has many names for the creator or who might they be offering up a blessing to for a good hunt or a prosperous and thriving garden yield. Are then to be lumped in as pagans just because they have many names for the ones they worship?

The question at hand is in fact is the trinity fact or fiction. Based on the article alone you would be led to believe that it is fictitious. What it all boils down to is that it is what you put your faith in and believe. If you believe that the three make up the one, then that is your faith. If you believe that the three represent different elements, then this is your belief. It really isn't about whether God is his name or not.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______
  The Bible says there is no other NAME by which man can be saved.
  Yahshua (Jesus) said he came in God's name. He was born Immanuel.
  
  The word baal is a Hebrew word meaning, owner, master, husband.
  When the pagens started using it for the name of their god, the Hebrews stopped using it.
  
  The Hebrews never once gave God a pagen name.
  
  Be careful who you learn from. People who are unlearned and/or idiots make up stuff to back up their beliefs.
  
  "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman...accurately handling the word of truth."
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Lynn,
  
  Emm, no. See, that is the problem with paganism: titles and entities.
  
  Yes, the Shakespeare and Gaiman analogies were to show how easily any one can create a title, give it a name and call it god. It is also not limited to religions either, something science has yet to admit (but that's another topic altogether).
  
  Yes. They are a stigma and are for pagans, as a pagan can pick and choose which or what they desire to believe in, conjure, exalt, focus interest on, etc. The Creator cannot have a name or title, as that would deduce Creator to a human perspective --a human creating a god.
  
  I would have to say yes. As the Aborigines, Native American, Inca, Mayan, countless African Tribes, India, Asian, Pacific Island, Caribbean --even the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Hebrews do the same.
  
  Actually, I am highly in agreement that the trinity is fictitious. It was used so as to create the concept of this man Immanu El (Y`shua, Jesus) being the totality of Creator in the flesh, being the Creator himself. So by dividing up the pieces of Creator, giving each a name and title, it established itself as ancient validity for worship. This is why Christianity came into being (which has very little to do with why the man did the work he did). He himself says he is not "God", but an offspring of Creator --and all humans are identical | equal | brothers to him-- it destroys the entire conundrum. It is easier for them to worship him, place the burden on him, give themselves absolution, instead of following in the same footsteps. So worship comes easy. Note how Constantine took the concept and ran with it. He went from worshiping goats and golden statues, to creating a god in his image, using Immanu El to achieve that effect. From Romantic often Ruthless and Bloody measures of worship, to an extreme opposite. He even went so far as to blend Diana into the mix in the form of Mary (strong in Roman Catholicism) and depicting "Jesus" as blondish, blue eyed divinity...
  
  James.
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lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago
I never once said that God was given a pagan name. What I was quoting was from Twenty One where he states that names are stigma's and were for pagans, etc.

Edit to add: and again the topic is whether the trinity is fiction or fact. I don't see what names have to do with that.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______
  I never once accused you of saying that God was given a pagan name.
  I know what you were replying to.
  Now how did you get all of that out of what I said.
  
  I already said that trinity is fiction. Boy you're huffy.
  Names don't have anything to do with it offhand. But you were talking about names
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  lynnechandlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Deborah, maybe I read too much into it. The name thing came up and I responded. But I'm off to bed now.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  No problem.
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lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago
Personally, I don't worship trees or special places, I respect them. There is plenty of structure in the respect of where we live. I do have my own set of beliefs, but nothing is made up as I go along. Everything comes through learning and research to become a better individual without being judgmental of others.

I really only entered into this to give a view of the Triquetra and then I continued because I don't see how Twenty One can say names are a stigma and were for Pagans etc. I still don't have clarification on that one. Oh well, like I said this is about the trinity, whether it be fact or fiction and I think it is up to each individual to decide what they truly believe.
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Emile Rposted 13 years ago
The trinity is Christianity’s means of explaining the web of power as spoken of in shamanism. YHWH is the name of the consciousness that originates within, and emanates from, the higher plane; then flows throughout the physical world in the form of the Holy Spirit. Yeshua represents that part of our being that is connected to this consciousness. Through the study of the words and ways of Yeshua humanity, or ‘the body of Christ’as Christianity defines it, can connect to the consciousness that emits from the higher plane. Yeshua is their model for becoming one with the ‘father’.
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Greek Oneposted 13 years ago
Nothing like a good debate on a sunny friday as to whether Jesus was divine lol
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  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No debate.
  
  Just unfortunate blind people..
  
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
The Trinity - fact or fiction?

Trinity is fiction; it is not from Jesus; it was invented by cunning Paul, sinful scirbes and misled churhc; these three invneted it.

Trinity is a myth, a fiction, a superstition.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just like your myths.
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  tammybarnetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is what I believe the trinity represents, man is made in the image of God, man is mind, body, and soul-God is the mind, Jesus the body, and the holy spirit is the soul.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______
  Mankind in the image of God, does not mean physical attributes.
  
  It says God the Word and the Holy Ghost.
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  tammybarnetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not a theologian, but I don't think you need to be. I think people over think subjects such as these. We are to come to him with the innocence of a child so I don't think he, God, was trying to be overly complex. The Word was Jesus until the bible.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yahshua (Jesus to you) read from the scriptures. They already existed.
  Yahshua was the word because that's all he spoke..the words God gave him.
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  tammybarnetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes of course the old testament existed before Jesus, I 'm sorry for not being clear. Jesus spread the word of God and became the word of God.
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www.lookseenowposted 13 years ago
Yes, you are right, the Old Testament, aka Hebrew Scriptures did exist before Jesus, but he was there in his prehuman past. In time he arrived to add the Christian Greek scriptures that tell us:

The Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory. (John 1:14)

You can’t help but see the relationship between father, and son. What does begotten mean? It means to beget, or to give life to. The father, Jehovah gave life to the son, Jesus aka The Word.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Come now, expand your mind!
  The passage says ALL worlds (meaning the entire universe) were framed by the words of Creator. So the entire physic universe IS His words. Only fitting that Immanu El ( Creator In Us ) being the word makes sense --and so does this: YOU are also the word, if you truly understand the Spirit and why you created to begin with.
  
  Why do you worship a man who told you not to worship him?
  
  James.
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  tammybarnetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I truly want to expand my mind, I am a student of life. God did create the universe and everything within. I can grasp how all of us are the body of christ, the church, and therefore the word. Explain what you mean with your last question please, I stated I am not theologian, just an ordinary jane who loves God.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your mind will never be expanded with medieval beliefs blocking the way.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Tammy,
  
  The last part of the question was deemed to the general 'believing populous', not you specifically. The entire text, front to back, as I have read it time and time again, commands no human worship another human or any other 'thing'. so, people worshiping this man, Immanu El [called Jesus, Y`shua] is not to be done. Sadly, they have ignored his main request --if not a command-- to love and worship the Creator alone and above all things. Not to create a religion that even Constantine who made Christianity the 'official' religion, would be awed by. This is the same thing the Hebrews did, when Moses went up the mountain. even in the presence of glory and seeing Moses face, the rumbling of the mountain, they built a religion --and actually demanded Moses depart from them, because of the glory on him, so they could keep their religion alive.
  
  The man simply said (paraphrased): "See how I am now, this is you, the real you. Now, go and become who you truly are, what you were truly created to be. Just remember what I did, in case you get discouraged. To help you, the Father is sending you what Adam had long ago, what you see shining from me --the essence of the Father himself, his Spirit. He will dwell in you (Creator In Us) --also see Johns Revelation regarding the Kingdom of Heaven and Genesis 1-- and that in-dwelling will lead you into all truth, life, peace, etc and get this: even cause you to passover (pass from physical death to physical eternal life) just like I am now. All you need to do is believe and take action called faith so it can happen. That is why I did the Work, to reverse everything that went wrong since Adam."
  
  James.
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  tammybarnetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  James, thank you for your reply. I will probably have to read it a couple of times and look up the scriptures you provided before it sinks in, but I believe you are saying that Jesus said not to worship him only the Father so therefore you do not belive in the trinity. If I have read this wrong I apologize. I intend to do the research, thanks again for sharing your wisdom:)
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all, no apology required.
  And yes, I am saying exactly that -we are not to worship Jesus.
  The trouble comes with a few passages where it states he and the Father are one; that he is the words of the Father, etc etc.
  
  His title: Immanu El {Creator with us], was given by Isaiah, to reflect the character of the true human being -a full and complete unity between Creator and creation. As some say: Elohim~elohim. The lessor a reflection of the Greater.
  
  You, me, anyone who accepts the gift of Grace -which is actually salvation itself- can now be transformed into the exact image and likeness that Jesus is in now --a glorified being. This is what Adam was, hence why Jesus is called the 2nd Adam.
  
  James
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Jesus-Savesposted 13 years ago
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. We cant fully comprehend how this two opposite natures can coexist together in one person. This are divine things, and divine things are infinite in nature, therefore no finite mind can fully grasp them. But we can believe them by faith.
The Bible does not mention the word trinity, but the concept is clearly supported by the Bible. Trinity means 3 divine beings, but one in nature and purpose. And since this is a Biblical issue, let me support what i am saying with some Bible texts.

Some 'Jesus is God' texts;
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:1-3, 14.
"By Him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth.." Colossians 1:16
"Unto the Son He saith, 'thy throne oh God is forever and ever, a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom." Hebrews 1:8
"And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

Some Trinity texts
"And God said, 'let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness..'" Genesis 1:26
"Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I. And now, the Lord God, and His Spirit hath sent Me." Isaiah 48:16
"And we have seen and do testify that, 'the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world'." 1 John 4:14
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father and He shall give you another comforter, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not neither knoweth Him. But ye know Him for He dwelleth with you and shall be in you." John 14:15-17
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vector7posted 13 years ago
You don't even believe in God Baileybear.

You make no sense.

Why don't you just ask why aliens are green?

As if it matters because you don't think they exist at all...

Or do you?
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1. 0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  seems all you are capable of is attacking people rather than debating the question at hand.
  reply report
60
recommend1posted 13 years ago
Oh god save us from all those w@nkers who pretend to speak in your name.
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