DNR (do not resuscitate)

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   Dave Mathewsposted 12 years ago

   The "Christian"Churches, have given their approval, thus condoning sanctioning, the right of an individual to be an "Organ Donor" thus willing their bodies to Science, citing: JOHN:15:13; as primary scripture for their approving.
   
   This being the case, does the "Christian" Churches also approve, condone, and sanction, the right of an individual who is an "Organ Donor" to voluntarily declare themselves for medical purposes, DNR (do not resuscitate) refusing to permit resuscitation,provided there is little or no hope for recovery to a normal life without mechanically assisting sustaining of life?

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Are you saying DNR is against Christian practices at this time?

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         Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         No I am asking this question of any member of the Christian community that might know the answer so that I might learn.

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            Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Just FYI, your putting quotation marks around "Christian" implied sarcasm. I think a lot of us thought you were speaking out against Christian churches condoning organ donation and living wills.
            
            I'm know there are churches or denominations that are gung ho against these practice, but I think by and large of they're not railing against them that's an implicit "for."

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               Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you for that. No I was emphasysing Christian because it encompasses all denomination, and excludes Non-Christian

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      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Are you talking about a specific denomination called the Christian Church, or Church of Christ, etc., or do you mean Christian churches in general?
      
      This is a good question, Dave, and I wish I knew the answer.  ...I don't recall ever specifically hearing any Pastor or Christian church leader expound on this. The issue is becoming more and more prevalent.   ...As far as I know, it's being left up to the individual people and their families to personally deal with it on that personal basis...

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         Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Brenda I'm referring to the "Christian Church Community" as a whole be ye Baptist, or Catholic, or United Church, or Presbyterian, or Anglican, makes no difference.  I too have not heard this subject addressed by the churches of Christianity.
         
         I NEED TO KNOW!

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   Eric Newlandposted 12 years ago

   To answer your implied question, I don't see an expressed wish not to use extraordinary means to prolong life as being anywhere in the same realm as suicide. Death is still an inevitability an we ought to be able to reclaim some semblance of dignity about it.
   
   There's a point at which "sanctity of life" becomes "Thanks to modern medicine we can now suffer longer than we ever have before!"

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      Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      
      Very well said.  +1
      
      Some of the best Christians I know have written a "Living Will" which includes the Do Not Resuscitate directive.  Their position is that while they are healthy and sound of mind, they have thought through the way they want to be treated, if and when they suffer any catastrophic injuries or illnesses.  In one sense, they see this directive as being a way to place their life and health back in the hands of God, rather than in the hands of technology.  The specific individuals I mention here are not organ donors.
      
      I also know of other Christians who have willed their bodies "to science" to be used as cadavers in medical schools.  One reason for that is the high cost of funeral and burial practices in the US.  But a stronger reason is their belief that in doing so they are helping to train the next generation of healers.

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         Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Having willed my body to Science as an organ donor, I too have taken such precautions as having a living will. Thing is though, if one's spouse does not agree and inform the hospital at the time of injury and you are unable to confer this to the medical staff, your organs could be lost for helping another.

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      Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Eric thanks you make a lot of sense. I just wish the church the Christian denominations would chime in and weigh in on this subject.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I do think it would be helpful if the issue was addressed by the clergy, but not if it's gonna be made into Church policy in a legalistic way.  Because even though it's very important, the fact is that each case, each family, is so personal and can vary in its circumstances.  Just like each person has to examine themselves spiritually, this situation calls for that personal accountability and decision-making, I believe.

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            Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Brenda it is an important issue that needs deliberation.
            
            The church weighed in a long long long time ago on abortion.
            The church jumped on the band-wagon in a hurry on organ donation.
                                           Yet
            The church drags its feet upon DNR to assist in organ harvesting, something that could help save 30 40 lives just from one harvest, not to mention the amount of medical knowledge that might be learned from the study of one body.
            
            I believe that Medicine is for the living to help them, not for those dying or already dead regardless how long some machine might prolong the inevitable, for we all must die in the flesh to return home to God.

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               Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Dave, I understand.
               But it isn't that simple.
               I believe God Himself is the giver of life and the taker of life.  No human being is authorized to make those choices, really.  Yet, what with modern technology (a good thing, but also the catalyst for bad things) and modern knowledge, patients and their families, and doctors, are often called upon to make those decisions.  They don't have the authority to do so! But circumstances often force them to!  Even a living will, while a good thing sometimes, is only giving people a choice between two evils, the way I see it.  I personally will not have a living will unless I can write it so specifically that there's no chance of controversy.  (I may later change my mind about that, who knows?  Because there is no easy answer, no easy nor clear decision).
               
               I know and believe that most patients and family members handle this issue the best they can; I truly believe they try to make the right decisions.  But a little phrase called "quality of life" has become inserted into it way too often. Since we are not qualified to make decisions about life that God only is qualified to do, we surely are even less qualified to make decisions about "quality of life" for an ill person!  Who knows what God might do, what influence he may use that person for in the last few days, hours, minutes, or even seconds of their life?!
               I think the laws we have now about this issue are the best that can be legislated.  Those laws call for food and water, whether orally or via feeding/hydration tubes.  And of course ethics require pain alleviation, etc.  No one wants to see people suffer.  Beyond that, the groundwork gets really shaky.
               While I see nothing wrong with organ donation as chosen on an individual basis by the patient themselves,  I do see much wrong with the trend of the pre-death push for "harvesting" from one body to another. 
               
               I imagine the Church doesn't speak out on this simply because they also know they're not qualified to give a blanket statement about it.  And I wouldn't trust them to do so for that same reason---they (Church leaders) are just as human as you and I.
               
               I say read the Bible.  Pray on this.  And don't plead for an authorization policy from any Church.  Because they're not qualified.  None of us are.  Take it to the One who is qualified, the Lord.  And set aside all those outside influences like insurance limits which are fueled by the issue of money and gambling on "the odds", because those are manmade and fleeting, while life itself (both physical and spiritual)is more important.
               
               That's my opinion.  I hope I haven't come off as sounding argumentative, because I sure don't mean to be, because I empathize with your dilemma in a most personal way!  It's just such an important thing, and such a hard thing; almost an impossible thing to come to terms with; no easy solution.

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                  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Brenda I understand I do. And I also understand the churchs' reluctance.
                  
                  As an organ donor I want the right to tell the doctor, if nothing else can be done go ahead harvest what you can. I'll let God sort it out with me.

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                     Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Dave, I always so admire your inquiring and searching mind!  And your good heart.
                     You're a gem, I believe. 

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                        Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Brenda thank you! Searching God's truth is not always an easy task, but if we do not search, we remain ignorant. Jesus tells us: "Ask and it shall be answered, seek and ye shall find." I remain looking for God's answers so that I might if it is God's will, inform others.

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   hookedhuntressposted 12 years ago

   I think a lot of people attribute the knowledge of man as though man some how obtained this knowledge all on their own.
   I believe ALL knowledge comes from God,that includes medical knowledge.I believe it is God given for our benefit.
   I also think that this knowledge can and is used for bad things a lot of times but the benefits to mankind far outweigh the bad.
   
   If I have a migraine(anyone that gets them knows they are horrifically debilitating) I take a pill it then goes away.I don't thank man for it.I praise God for giving man the knowledge to make the pill that helped me.
   
   I felt the need to mention the above because people do not give God the credit He is do.
   
   I would like to address the "Christian" comment also.There are a lot of people and churches that claim to be "Christian".
   
   Christian
   G5546
   Χριστιανός
   Christianos
   khris-tee-an-os'
   From G5547; a Christian, that is, follower of Christ: - Christian.
   
   Any person that calls themselves a Christian should be a follower of Jesus Christ.Any person,church or denomination that leads someone away from Jesus Christ and His teachings is not a Christian by mere definition of the word.
   
   There is a lot to be gained by calling yourself a Christian these days just look at mega churches,christian book sells and christian music sells.If people did a little back ground check on some of the christian music artists they would find that a lot of them do not even claim to be a christian per se  but that is the category their music is placed in and it sells.
   
   2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
   2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
   3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
   
   
   People's commentary,opinions,expounding and speculations are not the word of God.A lot of these commentaries,opinions,expounding and speculations only serve to tickle the ears.
   
   2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
   
   Itching
   G2833
   κνήθω
   knēthō
   knay'-tho
   From a primary word κνάω knaō (to scrape); to scratch, that is, (by implication) to tickle: - X itching.
   
   All things should be compared to scripture.If when held up in the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ it is found to be contrary then those "Christians" are not followers of Jesus Christ.
   
   Now with all that being said back to the question.
   
   This is a tough one Mr Matthews.The only thing biblical I can cite on DNR and organ donation is this:
   
   Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
   13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
   
   1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
   
   
   
   I think a person has the freewill to lay down their life if they want,not in a selfish way but of a pure heart and a pure motive.
   Jesus could have chosen not to die if he wished.I can choose to step in front of a bullet to save someone from being shot or I can stand still and do nothing.
   
   
   I think grieving families are the ones that can not let go,of course they do not want their loved one to go but we can not hold on to them for our own selfish needs.
   
   I think having a DNR reliefs a grieving family from having the responsibility of making such a hard emotional choice.
   If you look at cases of people being on life support it eventually boils down to the family finally coming to terms with letting them go and turning off the life support.
   
   I think all this leads to another question,when does the soul leave the body?
   I personally do not have a biblical answer to that question.I think there are mysteries that only God knows and that we are to just put our faith and trust in Him.

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