Eternal damnation, Hell and Judgement Day

1. 72

   Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

   Just thought I'd see whether we have any defenders of the notion of judgement and Hell posting here ...
   
   Since today's competition topic was Religion, I thought I'd take the opportunity to post this Hub:
   
   http://hubpages.com/hub/Hell-What-Hell
   
   And see if anyone says "what the Hell?"
   
   Jenny

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   knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

   'What the hell.'
   http://www.religionfacts.com/christiani … inners.htm

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   knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

   Try it like this, since I can't get links to work.
   www.religionfacts.com/christianity/libr … inners.htm
   Copy and paste into browser address window.

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   knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

   Well that didn't work either.
   How to do it?
   http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/
   
   library/edwards_sinners.htm
   
   Put the two together.

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5. 72

   Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

   Fantastic example of a classic "fire and brimstone" sermon! Thanks for the link - I'll add it to the Hub.
   
   Notice how the existence of Hell is completely taken for granted?
   
   And God's willingness to punish, too?
   
   Classic.
   
   No wonder there are so many screwed-up church-goers on the planet ...
   
   Jenny

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   Thom Carnesposted 16 years ago

   I've read somewhere that the whole notion of hell and eternal damnation is a uniqely New Testament proposition - ie there is no mention of such horrors in the Old Testament.
   
   I'm not a great expert on the Bible (why on earth would I be?) but the idea that little gentle Jesus meek and mild was solely responsible for the concept of everlasting torment in the fires of hell is certainly an interesting one.
   
   Can any of our more knowledgeable Biblical scholars confirm or deny this?

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7. 72

   Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

   It's all in my Hub:
   
   http://hubpages.com/hub/Hell-What-Hell
   
   But the short answer is that the translators who created the King James version invented Hell as we know it.
   
   In the old testament there was "sheol" - the grave.
   
   In the original Greek version of the New Testament there was "hades" and "tartarus", which also mean "place of the dead, buried, the underworld".
   
   Jesus also spoke of "gehenna", which was where they dumped the garbage and burned it.
   
   Translating all three words as "hell" for the King James version of the Bible was what created the merger of flames with the afterlife.
   
   It wasn't Jesus or anyone else at the time who invented it, it was something that happened over a thousand years later.

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      Thom Carnesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for that, Jenny. Your hub is fascinating. I suppose it is always worthwhile reminding ourselves that we are reading the Bible through the distorting lens of multiple translation - which has certainly got a lot to answer for.

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   Paragliderposted 16 years ago

   Greetings - It might also be worth mentioning that 'Gentle Jesus, meek & mild' is not a biblical character, but largely the creation of the polite 19th Century ladies who wrote many of the sentimental and often mawkish 'Children's Hymns', featuring a very watered-down, almost bowdlerised Christ. These hymns, coupled with matching illustrations of a languid, limpid Jesus who looked not remotely like any time-served carpenter, formed the first introduction to Christianity for several generations to follow.
   
   I don't claim to be a biblical scholar, but, belief in hell aside, there is plenty of biblical mention of a tougher side to Jesus - from driving the money-lenders from the temple to the cursing of an innocent fig tree. And what about the Gaderine swine? He would have appeared to have believed enough in demons to order them out of a man and into the pigs.
   
   There is a tendency these days for everyone to reinvent their own Jesus, usually after their own image. It was ever thus, of course, except that previously such fabrication was largely the preserve of the established churches (and major heretics). Nowadays it's open house. Everyone can have a pick-&-mix Jesus to suit his/her house style.
   
   The original question was about damnation, hell & judgment day. Personally, do I believe in these? No. Nor in heaven. It's easy if you try . . .

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   SirDentposted 16 years ago

   It seems to me that so many people have gotten the wrong idea about who God is and what He actually wants. If you know what the Bible says, even though you don't believe you can find out what it is that God wants.
   
   2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
   
   If you will read that scripture, you will know that God wants all to be saved. Judgment day is coming, but not only for those who don't believe. That day is for everyone saved and sinners alike. Everyone shall be judged on that day.
   
   As far as hell is concerned, it is very real. Men and women will end up in hell. not because God wants to punish them, but by their own choice. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. It was created to punish them for leaving their former glory. Many men and women have turned to the ways of the devil.
   
   God made a way for all men to come to Him. Jesus never turned anyone away who came to Him in repentance. Men and women refuse to acknowledge Him daily. It is a choice each person must make. I know this isn't what you asked for in the opening post, but it is what I saw to post here.

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      Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      And you are the one who have the right idea and know what He actually wants, right?

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         SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I think I posted above about what He really wants.

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            Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            So, you imply, that you and only those who interpret the Bible exactly like you know THE TRUTH. Only you are all-mighty readers of God's mind. And all other people are wrong, whatever their interpretation is and whatever effort they put into it.
            
            Isn't this called arrogance? Isn't arrogance one of the major sins in your religion?

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               SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
               
               Is it arrogant to post what God said? Throwing darts at me to get me to be quiet isn't very nice. God loves you and wants to save you from eternal separation from Him. But He is also a gentleman and will not force you to come to Him.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  No one is throwing darts at you, but this is supposed to be a discussion, and it is very hard to have a discussion with some one who insists on mis-quoting 2,000 year old dogma that has been proven to be wrong.
                  
                  And it is extremely arrogant to post what God said, when it is impossible for you to know what God said. All you are doing is repeating what Fred said to John said to Ishmail who translated it into Latin who then said it to Mary who changed it so suit what she thought and translated it into Olde English and was then adjusted by the man who ran the church then to scare someone into giving him money and was then translated into French and told by Francois to Jaques who translated it into Dutch with his own interpretations and said it to..... You get the idea.
                  
                  You do not know what God said. You might believe that you do - But you don't and repeating the same dogma over and over will have little use or value to anyone - least of all yourself.

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                     Thom Carnesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     Hallelujah!
                     
                     That just about says it all really.

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                  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  I did not say posting what He said is arrogant. When you really know what he said.
                  But when you pretend you know what He said based on a several thousand years old book that been re-written by PEOPLE countless times since it was supposedly given by Him; and deny others the right to interpret this book in a way different from yours - that is what I would call an arrogance...
                  
                  You pretend to have the ability to read God's mind - since there is no other way to know what he meant - cause there is obviously very little of what been once said what is still in the book, if anything at all. And you deny anybody else this ability. I.e. you pretend you are smarter, better, more advanced, and closer to Him than others. I think this is arrogance.
                  
                  I don't tell you whether it is bad or good, and I don't throw darts at you in any way. I accept you as you are and don't judge you. I'm just pointing out for you, that arrogance is a major sin in your own religion. And since you seem to be a major sinner on your own terms, i.e. someone who does not follow what he preaches, why should I take your words about your religion seriously? And I don't...

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               earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               You always surprise me Misha. I find I can rely on you cutting to the chase.Well said!

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      Kenny Wordsmithposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Nobody knows what God's plan is. We can only guess. I would be arrogant if I try to voice His thoughts.

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      when you become a doer and not a preacher, let me know.
      Christianity is not a good religion to practice if it is not done right.  Jesus gave those who were willing to accept it the power to change the world for good, not bad.  You really have become like the romans.  You know, if anyone should be counted in the number of heavenly beings it is the ones who fall innocently as victoms to the circumstances that you created.  Not Jesus.  Jesus will love no matter what, but what you do is so out there and unapealing, and then you tell people, that they just don't want to hear the bad with the good.  but guess what, niether do you, God is always good.  So all this stuff that you have been told is a bunch of bull because there is no such thing as having conditions to unconditional love. 
      If Jesus really loved everyone and died for all their sins, then it was done, enough said.  What you do is demand love from people, that is not love, that will never be love. 
      You have no idea about the things that actually go on around you and God's plan, you don't know who has authority, and when one does have it you will do anything you can to determine for yourselves what authority that person has because they don't preach just like you or believe just like you, because you are unjust, and that is nothing to follow.  You know who are the real heros and Gods of today. 
      There called fire fighters and police men, and people who put there lives on the line for you.  And after they do it, do you question who they are working for?  The real path to God's good graces is to do good, and in that good, is the challenge that puts your life out for another, because as a Christian you are expected to lay down your life for all men, yet you insist that Gods will is that you convince everyone that Jesus is God, who cares if Jesus is God, the message is out, and you are ruining it. 
      You take what is not yours, claim it as yours, and make a mochary of Christianity which should be about the worst of all sins.
      Which brings me to the adulatory clause, take another look at it.  It means exessive praise and admiration. 
      Jesus deserves all the praise in the world, but not at the sake of demanding it from anyone, doing so is pompus and stupid, it doesn't do anything for the greater good of humanity.
      If you did follow the scripture instead of reciting it like the hypocrites you talk about, you know, the  one that give praise as though rehersing for a movies, well that is the typical christain and you can not see it yet because that book has you so wrapped up in trying to stay in Gods' good graces that you haven't figure out that you have to do it.
      That is really too bad.  I know what you fear and I am telling you, you do not have to fear those things.
      God will have the most mercy on you no matter what for letting go and helping your brothers in the cause that brings freedom and peace to Earth, not this babling bolongna that you speak and do not do.
      No matter how hard you try to tell yourself you are a Christain, you have not yet become one, because Christianity represents man all the time, and you do not represent man all the time, you take weak men in there states of weakness looking for forgivness but fail to give him courage, you detroy what is left in them, call them weak and forgiven and that no matter what they do they will be forgiven as long as they have accepted Christ as thier savior.
      Do you really think someone who gave thier life for all men is really going to demand that you accept him as God? 
      It doesn't work that way.  You make a great man look like an a-hole and I think it is sick.
      
      the Lord is not slack on making his promise but you have no faith. The entire world has heard about Jesus now it is time to be just like him.  Pick up your cross if you have to but the world will not change unless you stop with the boasting and come together with the rest of the world regardless of their belief in God because that is what you were told to do.
      So why aren't you doing it?

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         SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I believe you are blind to what Jesus said to do. You are popular among the people here. They love you and why is that? It is because you accept everything as being good. But you do not accept me and what I do as being good.
         
         My cross goes with me everywhere I go. I am persecuted for what I speak. It is written that by the Word of God alone can man come to knowledge of God. Take this however you will. I can;t force you nor anyone else to accept Jesus, but I can speak truth so that you can know the truth.

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            sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly: the word of God alone can man come to knowledge of God.  I did get the word alone and I will tell you that the Bible is not a lie, but when you figure out all it's lies you will shiver in you boots.
            BTW- you want to talk about being hated, maybe just a few people here like what I say, but about 3 billion hate me.  So you do the math.  Whats sad is I get persecuted by the people who are supposed to love me the most. 
            
            So you stick to what you think you know and I will stick to what I do know, and maybe one day you will figure out I am trying to bring you up to God.

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            Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            What you speak is not of God at all.  You think you know God and are the ONLY ONE that knows God.  Sandra is correct and YOU are jealous that she and I and a few others know what that unconditional love is.  Jesus was the one who said the world and the teachings was NOT from a book nor shall we learn from a Book and yet all you want to do is try to figure out how others are wrong and put yourself on that perverbial pedestal.  Man you better wath how high that is because the higher it is the harder you will hit.  You can rattle off scripture everywhere yet you cannot tell us what it means in your life.  You are NOT God!  You may have apart of that God, but you certainly are not totally him and you certainly don't know the frst thing about UNconditional love.  No Strings attached.  You are attaching strings left and right.  Jesus was with what kind of people and talked to what kind of people?  Certainly not arrogant ones, but those who would hear his message.  Force is never his message.

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    SirDentposted 16 years ago

    An oversight of mine is that I failed to mention that hell is not the end. There is also a lake of fire that will receive death, hell and the grave. That is where the beast and the false prophet will be cast.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    So what exactly is the beast and false profit?

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       SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       They have yet to be revealed. Also it is spelled prophet.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Just wait another 4,000 years - all will be revealed.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Actually it was a pun.
    Pro fit: before : right size and shape
    Fit the present to the after.

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    Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

    I take it you haven't read the Hub under discussion, then Sir Dent?
    
    The Word of God is a little dependent on the language spoken by the listener, the transcriber, and the skills of the intervening translators ...
    
    Jenny

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Welcome back Thom. Another Godless heathen returns to the fray.
    
    "Un-converting religious zealots every where - one soul at a time." LOL
    
    How was gay Paree?

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       Thom Carnesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Bloody freezing! But, apart from that - great!
       
       Do you think our Christian friend really believes it when he says that God is a "gentleman"?

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Yes, it's been unseasonably cold down here on the coast. In fact it's pissing down with rain as we speak   You are in Provence, is that right?
    
    I don't know what sir dent thinks really - I would be happy to enter a discourse if he would write his own opinions rather than what he is doing

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       Thom Carnesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yes - isn't it difficult to maintain a relatively rational discussion when all you get is emotive rhetoric and evangelical posturing.
       
       Not, of course, that there's anything intrinsically wrong with emotive rhetoric and evangelical posturing (I guess I can be quite emotive and posturing myself on occasion) - they're just no substitute for rational thought!
       
       (Unfortunately, I am not in Provence - I'm in the UK. I only get to Provence two or three times a year at the moment - but I'm working on it!)

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    LOL - That's a shame, I was going to ask you if you wanted to meet for un verre Maybe in the summer? You better get started on the high paying hubs - you can write them from anywhere Like the Cote D'Azur or Provence

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    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    The word of God teaches that there is and will be judgment.  Most of mankind will enter into the Lake of Fire Great White Throne Judgment.  For some, this will be very severe indeed.  I believe some of the most severe judgments are researved for those who teach some damnable doctrine of eternal torment in a place called hell.  There are numerous proofs to why this is unscriptural and stupid.  However, all are judged (whether in this life or the next) and all will be saved.  Go to bible-truths.com.

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       aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Nice work! You have clearly contradicted yourself.
       Which will it be? All mankind is in the Lakeof Fire, or all mankind will be saved?
       You had better read your Bible again.

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          Hell N0posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You churchies have undermined scripture by turning the Lake of Fire into a place of eternal torment.  The fire of God will purify all, including you.  I humbly await your dogmatic response concerning bad translations such as hell and eternal.

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             aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Luke 12:5,   Rev20:15,   Mat 25:41, (just to start with a few.)
             And what was the reason Jesus died? Do you know?

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    Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago

    God and Jesus's message was to get people to heaven.....not to hell and that is what SirDent knows how to do--surely tell them they are going to hell becasue of a few verses in that bible that was translated so many times that I doubt bery much of it is what was first written.
    He will not read anything that has anything to do with anything other than his views and don't ever try to comment on any of his hubs if you have a different view--it will be denied.  He and others have this thing that the bible has been tested and nothing else has and no one else has any evidence that their evidence is truth.  Yet it has been proven many times that the bible events have not a shed of evidence that they happened as they did in the KJV version.
    He truly has that "deaf ear".

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Trying to pick a fight, LG? I only deny comments that are argumentative, trollish, ands off topic.
       
       Let's talk about your claims (and other's claims) that the Bible has been rewritten many times over. Where did you get your info?
       
       Claiming that it was rewritten must mean that you have the original. If you do, why do you hide it so?
       
       If not, how is it even remotely possible that you know it was rewritten? Research on the internet? What sites did you research and what was the agenda of the site owner?
       
       15 times in the New Testament Jesus mentioned hell.
       
       23 times hell is mentioned in the New Testament.
       
       The word hell and the definition are below.
       
       G1067
       γέεννα
       geenna
       Thayer Definition:
       1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
       Part of Speech: noun feminine
       A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H1516 and H2011
       Citing in TDNT: 1:657, 113
       
       The word for fire is below here.
       
       G4442
       πῦρ
       pur
       Thayer Definition:
       1) fire
       Part of Speech: noun neuter
       A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word
       Citing in TDNT: 6:928, 975
       
       I used the scripture below for the definitions above.
       
       Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

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          Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Well lets see, how many comments you deem argumentive--could be just a statement of what is said   My you love to judge.
          
          I will not go into the meanings of hell and the places, because Pam already did for you.  Now go argue with her that her definitions do not suit yours.
          
          After a few fights with you about mockng scripture for you own use, you can stop it now.  It does no good.
          
          Where I get my information is not only on-line but many other places and texts and documetnaries.  If you don't like it that is YOUR problem.  Like I told you before you will not re-convert me becaseu you think that I am totally wrong and that you may get kudos for saving someone.  Saving from what?  Jesus didn't say to do that--he said to spread his works as his miracles and that we are to do the same, not beat people up and put them on some guilt trip and spit scripture at them.  There was no scripture then.
          
          Pride goeth before a fall!

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    Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago

    Now one has to wonder which God is SirDent talking to or with.  He speaks of the ONE God, but in the beginning THEY made US in THEIR image.  There cannot be ONE GOD if GOD says that there are more of THEM.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Well, if you turn it around - we make god in our own image.

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          Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Yep!  Have you seen the DVD in my las hub "The Long and Winding Road" about The History of God?  Excellent movie or documentary.

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    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    What's your point?  I already told you that fire of God purifies.  This is not something that most indoctrinated churchaholics will understand, whether it be aionios fire, Gehenna fire, ect. ect.  How about just a few for you to start with.
    
    Isaiah 26:9
    When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.  (that means everybody)
    
    John 1:29
    Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
    
    John 4:42
    . . . for we have heard Him ourselves and know that this is truly the Christ, the Savior of the world.
    
    1 Cor. 3:15
    If anyone’s work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire
    
    1 Tim 2:4
    “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior:  Who will (thelo) have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  (Thelemo means desire)
    
    Wow, it looks like Jesus died on the cross for a much more grand purpose than what the church would have one believe.
    
    I could go on and on but it wouldn't make any difference to those whose eyes are wired shut.

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    aka-djposted 15 years ago

    I see! So, there is No Hell, No destruction, No distinction between the saved and unsaved. ALL are righteous. The sheep and goats example Jesus gave had NO spiritual meaning.
    John 3:16 should read "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that none shall perish but have everlasting life."
    How could I have missed that all these years?

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       SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       You guys, come on, get the mystery and meaning; stop fighting over words. Jesus said all that he said, in the different ways he said them, so that anyone could "get it", if they let go of the human concepts that group people to make them sheep (sheep defined as mind less dumb animals).
       Its all about letting go of the human perceptions of concepts. You know, its that good feeling we have in our hearts of knowing God's Love in ourselves and each other, even when our human minds create disagreement because the ego has a need to feel superior, or the need to understand others. True understanding does not come through words, but through the Spirit within the words.
       Its all got to do with the mind of Christ. When you have the mind of Christ, your words have the heart of Christ, the understanding of Christ, the love of Christ. The point is to get past that human ego need to be right, or better, or best, or whatever...that is what Jesus meant when he said "..all that believe in the Son will have eternal life" We all have the Christ within our self, the Christ mind to uncover, or re-create, however you want to look at it. Only by following this, which is what Jesus was teaching, can we find our Christ within and become One with Jesus as God.

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          aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry it upsets you.
          It's easy to trip up on a few verses. There is a "wholistic" approach to studying the Bible. Another way to put it, a "balanced" understanding. For someone to say there is NO Hell, no judgment etc, goes in the face of that approach of Biblical study. It is as the Word says it is. I may not like (some of) it, but that's not prerogative to deny, or toss it out. (if you get what Iam saying).

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       Hell N0posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       No, much like a cave fish, you don't see!!
       
       Acts 17:31
       Because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.
       
       Isa. 58:1
       Cry aloud, spare not, lift up your voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
       
       You'd do well to actually pay attention to what I write before banging out your silly misunderstandings.  There will be great judgment.  There will be destruction.  But Christ will save those who are destroyed by the very process of judgment or destruction (same thing).

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    pgrundyposted 15 years ago

    The following words are translated as simply 'hell' in the King James Bible even though they mean something other than what we mean by that term:
    
    Shoel--A Hebrew term which means 'the grave' and refers to a fairly neutral place the soul is sent to after death--not a place of punishment.
    
    Gehenna--This is an actual geographical location outside of Jerusalem.
    
    Tartarus--The Greek word for a place that souls were sent after death to be punished. Since the Bible was translated from the Greek texts, it is hard to know if the use of 'Tartarus' was already a corruption within the text.
    
    Hades--The Greek word that corresponds with the more neutral Hebrew word 'Shoel'--a damp dark place, not necessarily a punishment.
    
    Abaddon--Hebrew for 'destruction.'
    
    Infernus--A Latin word meaning 'being underneath' translated in modern texts as 'hell'.
    
    
    Clearly if you take a bunch of different words from different cultures and 'round them off' to fit a modern concept (Hell) you'll come out with a text that supports the modern concept you wanted to believe in the first place.
    
    But you're probably wrong. Even just reading the text literally. I won't even get into the metaphysics of it, since I know this branch of religion has no imaginative faculty in that regard.

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       aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks for the definition(s).
       Nothing I haven't seen before. The Bible is as much a spiritual book as natural (probably heaps more). Therefore words, word pictures, idiums etc carry a dual meaning, in many cases. Limiting these to simply natural meanings renders them as useless as many people claim them to be.
       Jesus said of this matter as follows. Joh 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
       How indeed?

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          SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          See, right there in that verse, Jesus is expressing that there is two levels of consciousness that creates confusion. When we have the mind of Christ, we can see the duality of those two levels, but "hold" "BE" that Christ of Truth.
          So, he showed that the important thing was to recognize that we have allowed this human state of mind to take over...a sense of separation from God. And the thing to do is let go of that sense of separation.
          As long as any religious doctrine promotes hell in a malicious manner, instead just as an awareness within ones self of the mind to recognize and overcome (not believe), it perpetuates a sense of separation from God.

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          pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Um, yeah, OK. But you can't invoke your right to interpretation at the same time you insist that hell is a literally real place because Jesus says so (the 'natural meanings' you refer to). You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus really said these things and meant them the way you say he did, or he didn't say them at all (even literally) and in addition to the translation errors you are also reading your own ideas into the text.
          
          I say Jesus clearly didn't mean what you say he meant on the level of literal interpretation of the natural meanings, and IMO he didn't mean what you say he meant metaphorically either. I think you personally think these things, and that's fine. You are certainly entitled to opinions, just don't attribute them to the Jesus of Biblical scripture. Say these things yourself, on your own authority, because there's no scriptural basis that I can see for your claims about hell.

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             Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Not sure about the other languages, but Greek is practically impossible to translate and retain the entire meaning. There always has to be some interpretation, and this varies wildly from person to person.

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    Teresa McGurkposted 15 years ago

    I've been to hell: it's a really stormy night on the Larne-Stranrear boat, with people being sick all over the place.  I repented of all my sins that night.

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       pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Sounds familiar Teresa!

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Nah, Teresa.  Hell's gotta be, at times, an American corporation.  Off we go...
       
       

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          Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I am going thrugh a bit of hell right now.  I made a typo on when the mortgage payment is supposed to come out and they are going to reverse it but my local bank still is charging us for the bounce fee.  Hell ist is and it is hot in here!!
          
          Karma, and Sir Dent doesn't beleive in it---Or was it a deamon that did this to us-----non and not at all--it was me who did this to me.....I was judged by the bank and then myself  right then and not at the end like christians say it will.  Cause and Effect--KARMA.
          
          edited...

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25. 0

    pgrundyposted 15 years ago

    Sufi, that's my point though. The translators imbued the Greek text with their own already well-formed concepts of Hell, and the Greeks were already translating the text from something else  themselves and imbuing it with Greek meanings. Just what we know about the various words and their (most common) translations is more than enough to cast serious doubt on the veracity of the modern fire & brimstone interpretations. At this point we're at several layers over the original meanings--whatever they might have been. And, not to leave out the fact that the Gospels weren't even written during the time of Jesus, so we're relying on memory and so forth an so on.
    
    Anyone can take any text, modern or Biblical, and slice and dice it support an interpretation. I have to ask myself, looking at the whole of the Gospels, the general drift of them as it were, plus considering the time in which Jesus taught and the people he was teaching, is it likely he was talking about what modern preachers ascribe to him? My answer is no, not likely.

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       Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Exactly - I agree with you fully. Modern Greek is difficult enough - there are many words and phrases that have no direct translation. To further add to the complexity, there are some words that have more than one translation.
       
       Ancient Greek is ten times more difficult - most Greeks struggle to learn it at school! I remember the discussion a while back about 'Suffer not the witch/suffer not the poisoner.' The root word can legitimately mean both!
       
       Even Latin is not without some difficulties of translation

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26. 66

    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Hell is a state of consciousness, opposite of a Divine or Heaven state of consciousness. IT is the soul that has consciousness, so whether we are in a body or out of body, that consciousness resides with the soul in a "hell" or a "heaven".
    
    The way to not be in hell is raise one's consciousness out of it, into heavenly states... i.e. least positive mental states of consciousness, like love, forgiveness, understanding, peace, searching for truth, helping others, etc.

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       pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Well said. I do think that is closer to what Jesus meant.

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27. 67

    Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago

    Sir Dent, You Wrote: 
    Trying to pick a fight, LG?
    
    LG writes, No, I wil just shove you into the pool. 

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       And you will be pulled in also.

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          Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Oh, How fun!!!!  Dunk you!

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28. 80

    quicksandposted 15 years ago

    Oooooh! Another yes-GOD no-God forum! I thought a long time back it was already established by the atheists that GOD did not exist and by the believers that he did.
    
    The battle was won by both sides. Now as I browse I see another new forum.
    
    Why can't we guys silently carry on believing in GOD and let those guys silent carry on disbelieving in GOD ...
    
    Oh! I understand ... then there's no fun eh? 
    
    ROTFFLMA&BO!

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       RKHenryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Ironically, this post originally started off as a promotional advertisement for Jenny's new hub.

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          quicksandposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          OIC! 

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       Hell N0posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Personally, I don't care that much about whether people believe in God or not.  I know there's a God.  My problem is with people who teach the most disgusting doctrines concerning God (or god with these churchies).  They not only teach a god of tirany and unjustified torture, but they insult the very fabric of humanity by saying most will go to a place of torture for all eternity.  And I point out simple scriptural truths and they continue to reject it for their attrocity of a god.  God help them.

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          quicksandposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Spot on! You've hit the nail on the head. I too believe in GOD ... and what about the rest? I don't know. The sad truth is that nobody knows.
          
          

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29. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    Oh, but I do Know that the scriptures teach all will be saved.  Not saying I know that much, but that is a simple fundamental truth that few see.  But they can take their hell and shove it.

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       aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Where's the justice? All the evil and wickedness in the world. How does your position explain that?
       I mean murderers, rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, god-haters, leaders guilty of genocide etc.what of them?

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          Hell N0posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You'll be surprised at how judgment in the Lake of Fire will permanantly change the hearts of murderers, rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, God haters, hell teachers, etc.  Judgment will not be a walk in the park.  Not that I haven't mentioned judgment a million times.  Go to bible-truths.com.

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             aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             So what you are saying is, that Jesus' death and resurrection was not effective to save mankind. But the "Lake of Fire" judgement will make everyone worthy(pure, clean sinless etc). We have no fear of "punishment" for doing evil etc. So, why do we punish evildoers (criminals) here and now? We are obviously less righteous than God, so it's OK?
             Sorry for asking so many questions, but your point of view fascinates me. Never heard it before.
             Please continue to(repeat yourself,) so I do "see it".

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          Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Justice is in the Cause and Effect--Karma or as the Bible says (that some people tend to ignore) What You Shall Sow, Ye Shall Reap.  It comes back to you---good and bad.  No one is excused from it.

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30. 71

    sunforgedposted 15 years ago

    without getting into it to deeply...i rather enjoyed my biblical scholarship classes, I think the casual bible thumper would rather surprised if they spent a couple of months learning about the multiple meanings and numerology behind every line of the old testament when studied through a linguists perspective.
    
    Long story short i liked genesis better when it was called "The epic of gilgamesh"
    
    and the Jesus figure was way more fun when the egyptians made him up thousands of years before the christians got a jesus - he was called Horus then.
    
    Krishna, mishra , zoraster are also remarkably similar - all born of virgin births- part of a trinity - oh yeah on dec 25th
    
    books are made by man

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       pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah, you know what bothers me most about this boring Bible thumping is not the bullying (though that's obnoxious for sure), and it's not the intentional distortion of scripture by choosing to be irrationally literal one minute and outrageously interpretive the next, it's the lack of imagination involved in the whole thought process... if you can call it a thought process.
       
       If you take what you just wrote here--that this story has been kicking around since LONG before the historical time of Christ--and you read the New Testament with even a micron of imaginative effort, you get this idea of "the Word made Flesh" that is really rather amazing and has ties to....MAGIC. Oh yeah. Wait for it... wait for it...
       
       Jesus of Nazareth: Spellcaster.

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31. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    Well there you go.  You just showed more proof that many of the so called similarities between Jesus and early Greek Gods were put in more recently than the original myths.  Scripture does not show that God is a trinity and Jesus was not born on Dec. 25.  Besides, Christianity itself is pagan to the core.  But the true scriptures blow all of the Greek myths into the sea.

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       sunforgedposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       i didnt mention any greek gods? I could of included Dionysus - as he was most def a christ figure, but i was worried about spelling
       
       I think you would be fighting a losing battle to try and disprove the elder age and history of greek myth to christian myth.(is that what you were saying?)
       
       The history of man involves the diffusion of beliefs from conqueror to conquered - of course the holy roman empire including every aspect of past conquered gods into their method of control - religion

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          Hell N0posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Dionysus?  The God of wine and fertility?  The son of Zeus and a mortal woman whome was killed by Zeus while he was still in the womb?  Let's take a look at some of the supposed similarities.
          
          Dionysus:  Greece 1200 BC
          Mom was the mortal woman, Semele; his dad was the God Zeus.
          Death and resurrection: died, was torn apart by the Titans, boiled, and eaten.  Only his heart was left; it was buried and from it Dionysus was resurrected and ascended to heaven.  Followers are depicted in afterlife in hades, drinking from one particular pool which will give them divinity and eternal life.
          Initiation by bathing-baptism
          A sacred meal
          (Image made of Dionysus sacrificed on a cross 200 years before Christ)
          
          I don't believe that crusifixion took place that far back and it goes against the. . . . being torn apart and stuff.  The scriptures don't claim that the dead are in hades doing anything.  The definition for hades by the time of Christ is unseen (realm of the dead where there is no experience).  The rest is conjecture, meaning little and probably late additions.

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             sunforgedposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             there does seem to be a decent amount of info that backs your side of the story also...BUT based on historical precedence it is more common for a new religion to adapt the ways of the old religions during transfer of power...I  truly would just be googling and copy and pasting and not really speaking from a place of authority if i continued to find sources

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32. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    Oh AKA, I just noticed that I already told you all of these things about judgment.  See what I'm saying about blindness?

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33. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    The scriptures are absolutelly unique in my oppinion.  I can see clear spiritual significance between the Old and New Testement.  Basically, there is alot of type and shaddow in the OT that is fullfilled wholly or partially in the NT.  I will not get into detail here.
    
    Keep in mind, that Jesus was not speaking out against Roman authority.  He was speaking out against the highest order of the Jewish nation.  I think that the church today spiritually represents the church of Christ's day with the Pharesies representing today's ministers.  The only difference is that the leaders of the church then, followed their scriptures more closely.

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34. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    AKA, what Jesus' death symbolizes is the ultimate sacrifice.  Jesus became a symbol for a lamb with no imperfections.  Notice, that in the OT the sacrifices were so God could forgive.  The sins did not disappear.  We learn from Christ that sins must be repented of to be free of them.  I believe the scriptures teach that all sins have been forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice.  That includes those of Hitler, Stalin, Sadam and his sons, ect.  They will need to be repented of.  The Lake of Fire will show people for what they are and the shame of it will be an important step to everyone repenting of their evil.  It will not be a walk in the park.  I know that there is much to be said on these things and I recommend you visit bible-truths.com.  If you are anything like most indoctrinated church folk, you will not accept anything that Ray Smith teaches.  But you will not be able to honestly and scripturally refute much if anything he teaches.  Good luck.

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       Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I think the fire is personal and (sorry for bringing fantasy here) in the Never Ending Story Atreyu came to the wall in which he saw himself in and had to deal with his own doings and undoings.  This wall is for everyone to face.......that to me is like the Lake of Fire.  It can also happen at any time in one's life.

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35. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    1 Cor. 3:15
    If anyone’s work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire

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       Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       10According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it],
       
       11for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ;
       
       12and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --
       
       13of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare [it], because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
       
       14if of any one the work doth remain that he built on [it], a wage he shall receive;
       
       15if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.
       
       16have ye not known that ye are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God doth dwell in you?
       
       17if any one the sanctuary of God doth waste, him shall God waste; for the sanctuary of God is holy, the which ye are.
       
       18Let no one deceive himself; if any one doth seem to be wise among you in this age -- let him become a fool, that he may become wise,
       
       19for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it hath been written, `Who is taking the wise in their craftiness;'
       
       20and again, `The Lord doth know the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain.'

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       sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       ... yet it will be an escape through fire.
       
       as in revelations, it becomes refined.

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36. 66

    aka-djposted 15 years ago

    Matth, 25:41 says "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
    I don't know what you think about this verse, but everlasting means "everlasting" IE, without end.
    To say that all will be purified, (made righteous) by going through the (Lake of)Fire, is saying the same as the Catholic Churche's teaching of Purgatory (in principle).

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       Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       That would hold true only if there were really deamons.  They were added to the Bible in the 1500's when all the diseases and afflictions were occuring and also the time of the Inquisition.

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37. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    You should check the source to see what these words really mean.  I follow no Cathlic doctrines nor those made up by any church organization.
    
    The term aions is used below in ways that when the rest is translated properly, forever or eternity would never make sense.
    
    Before the aions:        1 Cor. 2:7  (before the eternities?)
    God makes the aions   Heb. 1:2    (God makes the forevers?)
    Past aions:                   Col. 1:26   (Past eternities)
    Present aion:                Gal. 1:4     (Present forever)
    End of present aion:     Mat. 24:3  (End of present eternity)
    The next aion:               Lk. 18:30  (The next forever?)
    Future aions:                 Eph. 2:7     (Future eternities?)
    Contrasting aions:         Eph. 3:21   (Contrasting forevers?)
    Ends of the aions:         1 Cor.10:11 (Ends of the eternities?)

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       aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       The word can mean three things, depending on the context in which it is used.
       Το λεξικό βρήκε 1 λέξη.
       The dictionary found 1 word.
       
       αιών ο =  lifetime generation eternity
       aion o
       
       
       Still begs the question on "pergatory". Note Pergatory is a place of "purging" ones sin(s). Clearly NOT scriptural. We are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, NOT by fire.

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38. 57

    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    Oh, and more about eternal, everlasting and any other word mistranslated to mean forever.
    
    Instances where aionios cannot possibly mean eternal:
    
    Rom 16:25
    . . .according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world (aionios) began.  (the word kosmos is not found in this verse, they knew eternities or forevers wouldn’t make sense).  Eternity has no beginning.
    
    II Thes. 2:16
    . . . and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace.  (Just how long are we going to need consolation and hope? for eternity? When will we experience the promises?)
    
    II Tim. 1:9
    . . . according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (times eonian)  (What if it had said before eternity?)
    
    Jude 7
    Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (eonian) fire (justice of fire eonian).
    But Look:
    Ezekial 16:55
    When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then you (Jerusalem) shall return to your former estate.  (their former estate was not in hell, was it?)
    
    “Justinian called a council in 540 wherein he labored to add the word “endless” to the Greek aionios life.  He knew and conceded that aionios was not endless, and so insisted in the Church inserting the word endless before it to signify “endless life” and “endless punishment.”  (Ray Smith)
    
    The Greek aion is the same as the English Eon and the Greek aionios is the English eonian.  These words never mean forever.  Had God wanted His Word to have a term meaning forever, there would have been one in the language of the day. 
    
    Judgment will not last forever as the theologians insist, but are eonian.  Once all sins have been repented of each new creature will be given life immortal and will be in The Kingdom of God which “will have no end”.

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    Hell N0posted 15 years ago

    Stop relying on modern dictionairies for old Hebrew and Greek words.  There was no term for eternal in the day of Christ.  Read what I write before dogmatically reject it. 
    
    So, fire doesn't purify?  This time read what's written.
    
    Rev. 1:14
    “His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire”
    
    1 Pet. 1:7
    “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with  fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ”
    
    James 3:6
    “And the tongue is a fire. . .  The tongue is constituted among our members that which is spotting the whole body.
    
    Heb 1:7
    “And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire”
    
    1 Cor. 3:13
    “Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is”
    
    Heb. 12:29
    “For our God is a consuming fire”
    
    Rom. 12:20
    “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head”
    
    Luke 3:16
    “John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose:  He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”
    
    Mark 9:49
    “For Every One shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt”
    
    Malachi 3:2
    “But who may abide the day of His coming?  And who shall stand when He appears?  For He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”
    
    Zeph. 3:8
    “. . .For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy”
    
    Ezek. 38;19
    For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken”  (Uh oh, that must be talking about hell. . . . . . . . . . . . .NOT).
    
    Lamentations 1:13
    “From above has He sent fire into my bones. . .
    
    Jer. 23:29
    “Is not My word like as a fire? Saith the Lord”
    
    Psalm 104:4
    “Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming Fire”
    
    Matt. 3:11
    I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: but He that comes after me is mightier than I,  Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:  He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
    
    Matt. 3:12
    Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His (threshing) floor, and gather His wheat into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    
    
    So what about The Lake of Fire burning with brimstone
    
    1.    Whose fire is it?
    2.    What does this fire accomplish?
    3.    What examples of fire have been associated with God in scripture?
    4.    Oh, and what in all of non spiritual christiandom is the need for brimstone to torcher the unrepentant for all eternity?
    
    Check your concordance for eternity (aion), eternal (aionios) and forever (aions of the aions). 
    Find out the uses of brimstone for thousands of years.
    
    By the way, theses words (in Revelation) are symbols.
    
    
    
    He will babtize you with fire.

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