OK, the question now becomes not "if" swine flu will strike, but "when" and 'how severe will the outbreak be?'
If you can not deliver the vaccine (and they can not) then why panic the masses! Besides it is already an epidemic...
Sigh. Time for a little history lesson. The Spanish Flu was a mutated form of a Kansas bug that was active about 1916-1917. It's theorized that a Kansas farmboy, infected with this strain, went to France to fight in the Great War. In that hellhole of misery, death and filth the virus mutated into what became known as the Spanish Flu. Spanish Flu is noted for it's deadliness because it causes what is called a cytokine storm in the body. This storm is basically the immune system attacking the body. That is why young, otherwise healthy people were killed. Their own strong immune systems were killing them. This is also why children and the elderly survived. Their weaker or compromised immune systems couldn't do the damage that a healthy immune system could, therefore they survived.
Now the Swine Flu doesn't cause a cytokine storm, nor does it kill people with strong immune systems. Nor do we have a situation in the world like the Great War of 1914-1918. There is no pressure, in other words, causing this flu bug to mutate. Most people who die, die from some underlying or secondary infection.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ … 38,00.html
This is just another run of the mill flu. What they have successfully done is scare people into trying any new drug that comes down the pipeline. Remember how I keep saying that big Pharma is in bed with the government. This is how it works. "Authorities" whip up a frenzy of fear which causes people to buy the crap pushed by big Phama and big Pharma gets a partial lift out of the Depression we're in. At least until Swine Flu fears subside.
This is going to bite us in the rear end a few years down the road when something really serious happens and nobody pays any mind to the CDC or other "official" organs of the state because of the hoax they're perpetuating on us today.
Swine flu isn't any different than regular flu - and less people die from it. This is just another Obama sword-rattling "emergency" and it's just another tactic to convince everyone that we MUST pass healthcare right away
- unless they start using it to suspend your constitutional rights, which under national emergency conditions, they may do.
36,000 people die a year from the regular flu.
About 1,000 people have died from the swine flu, this year.
Not sure why everyone is freaking out about the swine flu. It doesn't kill anywhere near as many people.
Maybe You are right, Madame X. Could this be an Obama "scare" so everyone backs healthcare? I never thought of that.
Aparently you aren't aware that it is not yet winter and there are already 280,000 confirmed cases of Swine Flu in this country with about 2,800 deaths...many of those children.
This version of the flu is "acting" very much like the Spanish Flu of 1918. That flu killed tens of millions. Estimates are fifty to one hundred million people world-wide. Spanish Flu was also hardest on people twenty-five or younger...just like Swine Flu.
Finally if you want to know what the "emergency" means read my hub on it.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Barack-Obama-De … -Emergency
Here is a link to see the number of confirmed cases and fatalities by nation. Most nations are no longer reporting cases.
Apparently you aren't aware that the Spanish Flu left the elderly and children alive and killed the healthy middle. This flu is acting nothing like that one. Hint: Look up cytokine storm.
I am aware of that. Said so in at least three posts. See, that's what 'Spanish Flu was also hardest on people twenty-five or younger...just like Swine Flu,' means.
Had you bothered to actually read any of my responsese you'd know that.
FYI, I wrote a hub on Cytokine technology including storms. I've written four on Swine Flu and two others on viruses in general. One about how long viruses can live outside host cells and another on what a virus is.
The other four are about the Swine Flu and CDC tracking efforts, Swine Flu and pregnancy, Swine Flu dosing, and Obama's announcement.
Where exactly does this say that that they affected are 25 and under? It seems to be that you're trying to whip up fear by claiming that children are the most at risk for the swine flu.
You neglect to mention that the death from Spanish Flu tended to drop off the younger one got. That young adults were susceptible. Kids, by and large, were left untouched by that disease. The ingredient missing from this flu is the cytokine storm that makes it deadly to people otherwise healthy. So again, no this flu is not acting in any way like the Spanish Flu, it's acting more like your garden variety flu strain.
At the moment the H1N1 has only caused normal flu symptoms, but so did the Spanish Flu in it's first wave (also an H1N1 strain of flu). It was the subsequent mutation and then the 2nd and 3rd waves that killed. The UK is now bracing itself for the second wave - cases are increasing rapidly again, doubling each week at the moment. Let's hope the virus doesn't mutate into something more deadly and to be honest that's about all we can do - cross our fingers! Even if everyone gets vaccinated it may not protect against a mutated virus.
You're right, of course, Susan, but one thing I'm not sure many people consider is the fact that whenever there has been a flu pandemic, there has also been some event that acted like an incubator.
I've suggested that the Cultural Revolution in China was a major incubator for what became known as the Hong Kong Flu, but the most famous example of a flu incubator had to be the Great War and the Spanish Flu.
Epidemiologists have discovered that the Spanish Flu was a mutated form of a flu making the rounds in Kansas in 1916-1917, and unknown Kansas farmboy brought it to France during the War. In the killing fields of Europe in the dark years of 1917 and 1918, an entire generation died. The conditions at the front, with the concomitant misery, malnutrition and death were the perfect hellish incubator for something as insidious as the Spanish Flu.
The good news is that we don't have anything of that sort of magnitude going on in the world today. No incubator from hell, in other words. Without that incubator, the likelihood of such a deadly mutation is vanishingly small.
I've done a great deal of research. Something you should try sometime.
I'm not trying to "whip up fear"; merely reporting what I find...unlike you.
Clearly you have not read my hubs on the subject(s).
If that's the level of scholarship you use in your hubs, I'd rather not waste my time. You don't seem to be aware that they decoded the genetic code of the Spanish Flu in recent years and have discovered that it caused....wait for it...a cytokine storm in people. Just thought I'd point that out to you.
Got a link? Because I'm pretty sure I read the same article and got something completely different out of it.
You see, if you see the words "it is thought that" or "theory" they can't be totally sure; no one can. And knowing the genetic code for something doesn't mean you know exactly how that organism is going to operate. At least not yet.
There is also this to consider. If not everyone is "sure" that a cytokine storm occurred (and not everyone is) it is far safer and much more accurate to say "it is thought that" or "current theory is."
By all means do not "waste your time."
At least I don't take theory and parade it around as fact.
Which is what you've been doing.
Sure, plenty of them.
That's a press release from the CDC detailing a joint research effort from the Joint Forces Institute of Pathology, Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory and Mt. Sinai School of Medicine to genetically map the Spanish Flu. They recovered the virus from a woman who died in the pandemic who was buried under Alaskan permafrost as well as samples preserved from American soldiers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/influenza/ … atest.html
PBS also did a documentary on the recovery effort.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-of … /88/88.pdf
Note especially on page 11 under the Spanish Flu section where the report notes that unusually for a flu virus, the Spanish Flu did not kill children and the elderly, it killed healthy young adults. This lends credence to the theory that a cytokine storm was responsible for the deaths as children and the elderly have weaker immune responses than do young adults.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 05495.html
When they activated samples of this virus and introduced it into macaque monkeys, they died of....wait for it....a cytokine storm.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/di … OE=NEWISVA
USA Today reported on this in 2007, so it's been out in the public eye for some time now.
Are you sure you fully researched your subject when you wrote your hubs? You seem awfully ill informed about the facts of the Spanish Flu.
Yes, I'm sure. LDT you seem to continue to have a problem distinguishing theory and fact.
I am well aware that a cytokine storm is the most likely cause of majority of deaths in young adults during the Spanish Flu pandemic.
That's why I said: "There is still considerable debate about why the 1918 flu caused so many deaths. One possibility is what is called a "cytokine* storm." Note that the word "possibility" here indicates that it's a theory; not a fact," in my hub Tracking Swine Flu Vaccine & Its Side Effects
Please note that there is still considerable debate. That's why it's still called a theory.
To put this into perspective, even though most of Einstein's ideas have born out through experimentation it's still called the Theory of Relativity; not the Fact of Relativity.
The only way to prove it irrefutably would be to infect a large number of humans and see who died of what. That would include, of course, looking for a large number of cytokine markers in those that died.
Yes, the monkey model is a good one, but it's still a theory even if it's a really good one.
Let me put this another way. As theories go this is a very good one. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on cytokine storm as the cause of death for young adults during the Spanish Flu pandemic. But again, it's not irrefutable.
Here's something else I found digging around. When the last version of Avian Flu was going around scientists infected healthy birds with it and noted a strong cytokine response. It was the primary cause of death in these birds. In fact it was quite lethal. When Avian Flu made the leap from bird to human, scientists raised the alarm about Avian flu.
I think there were a total of 305 deaths from that flu that year. One of the lowest death-tolls out there and very few people contracted the flu.
This is why I'm so careful with the wording.
In review, the first two links don't mention cytokines. The third says "mostly young adults", it did kill children and older people as well though. The nature link does not actually mention cytokines though it seems obvious from reading it that's what they are talking about.
The fifth link makes the connection to Spanish Flu and cytokines, but note that it's still in monkeys not people.
By the way wouldn't you consider someone between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five a young adult? I would.
And the CDC is recommending anyone between 6 months and twenty-five years of get the vaccine.
Good stuff by the way. It's still just a theory though.
Sure it's theory, but it's good stuff that explains why things happened the way it did. If you're looking to science for irrefutable facts, you're looking in the wrong place. That still doesn't make me wrong and you right.
You're careful with your wording because the scientific consensus doesn't agree with your statement that, how did you put it:
The Swine Flu kills kids and the elderly. It is in no way like the Spanish Flu. Different pathology, different mechanism.
You also wrote:
No they won't infect people, but they'll do the next best thing, infect monkeys. How do you think they test trial vaccines on the flu? They certainly don't start out with human trials, they go with monkeys. Why? Because we're genetically very similar and the flu has been shown to be easily transmissible from monkey to human and back. It's not perfect, by any means, but needs must when the devil drives.
And we do have both genomes of the Spanish Flu and the Swine Flu mapped. So yes, we can tell how similar or different they are.
http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/ … sequences/
That's why the Swine Flu isn't going to be as bad as the Spanish Flu was.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/ … fluupdate/
Oh look there's an international database on flu genomes:
http://platform.gisaid.org/dante-cms/li … e?aid=1131
Like I said before, this national emergency thing is nothing but hogwash.
I'm careful with my wording because not everyone in this field of research agrees. THATS why I'm careful with my wording.
That's not the point. Never was. Swine Flu could morph just like Spanish Flu did. That's the point. Sheesh!
In no way does that accurately predict how Swine Flu might morph. You've done enough research; you know how fast these things change. Just as Spanish Flu morphed Swine Flu could change as well. Virologists were almost certain Avian flu would morph.
The national emergency "thing" is pre-emptive. It gives the secretary of HHS the ability to change federal rules IF they need to be changed. So no, it's not hogwash.
LDT. The only thing you are convincing me of is that you are very stubborn.
So am I though so it's not all that bad.
By all accounts it was the Great War that provided the incubator for the Spanish Flu. That's why it first cropped up in France, the US and Sierra Leone. Something like the battlefields of Europe mired in death, disease and misery are perfect places to accelerate multiple generations of diseases, thus accelerating mutations and increasing the chances that such a mutation may spark a pandemic. We don't have anything like that going on today. That's why the likelihood of this virus becoming deadly approaches zero.
The problem with making this "preemptive" is because it will be seen as a politician stunt. It's no surprise that this is being done at a time in which we are discussing socialized healthcare and will be seen as a tactic used to scare people into shutting up. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it will be seen that way, which will hamper it's effectiveness during a real emergency.
Besides, at my last job we did drills concerning flu epidemics during the whole bird flu scare that never materialized and the planning for these things is a joke. The script they use is nothing like what it would be in reality and everyone went with the assumption that things would unfold according to the plan. Any soldier could tell you that no plan survives contact with the enemy, neither will the government's crisis response. Need I remind you of the response to Katrina?
You're just now figuring out that I'm stubborn? I think you forgot opinionated and pig-headed as well.
You don't know that now do you?
To compare any flu to the Spanish Flu is difficult at best. The only remnants of that strain are in the laboratory and it's unlikely that scientists, even in China, are going to infect some sample of the population just to see what will happen and how it affects people.
Reporting on Spanish Flu was, by and large, suppressed. Of the European countries experiencing the pandemic Spain was the one trying to report on it accurately. Thus it's name.
What scientists have to go on is reports of fatalities from that time. Comparing the sparse information they have on Spanish Flu to what they know about Swine Flu is difficult.
But, of course they are concerned. Ten percent fatality in the "young" is similar to what was written about the fatality rate of the Spanish Flu.
The Cytokine Storm theory is just that; a theory.
Again, you seem to have difficulty interpreting exactly what I wrote.
What is different about this flu is that children and young people are dying from it. People who don't usually die from the flu.
Exactly. The reports are that adolescents and young adults immune systems go into overdrive for some reason, and basically fries them. Younger children and people over 30 are much less effected for some reason. If you look at news reports to see who died that was previously in good health, they mostly fit into this category of people.
Prevention is better than relying on unavailable vaccines and unavailable tamiflu. There are good hubs about this subject and how to protect yourself. Pgrundy is going through it now, she will write about it, I've written about it and so have many others. We need to educated in preventive measures.
36,000 people a year die from the flu. And I agree, prevention is the best course of action.
Firstly. I don't think we have any idea what is happening with this virus, my natural suspicion of all things like this is that it's man made to start with, (note HIV virus) and that if there is the expected 'second wave' it will be manufactured to kill a much larger number of people.
Yes the children and young people are more susceptible, the construction seems to be one which makes the immune system react and go into overdrive, attacking it's own host body, and children and young people have better immune systems than us oldies,whose systems are normally under par, so they fare worse than us in this instance.
Remember that in 1964 the UN and WHO agreed that the optimum number for world population in their New World Order was 500 million people, whereas currently the world tops 6 billion.... so it's (for me) not too much of a stretch to see this s the START of the planned population reduction.
Secondly, the vaccine in this instance COULD be the worse killer in the long term... WHY? well if I wanted to have the ability to kill large numbers of people rapidly, I would get them to take an engineered 'vaccine' which had hidden in the vaccine a precursor that would activate in the body when the catalyst second part was encountered.
There has been an extensive vaccination program in Africa (sponsored by acknowledged NWO leaders)and now we have Obama's NWO cronies in the USA pushing for compulsory H1N1 vaccination (as well as in the UK and other major population areas).
This is of course great business for BigPharma, but aside from that, if my concept had any substance, then a whole heap of humanity could have been injected with a killer virus just awaiting activation at whatever point in the future the NWO decide the time is right to start their New World dominated by THEM.
So personally I will wait and see what is happening, because the H1N1 virus to date seems quite manageable by using simple colloidal silver or even salt water to gargle with and snort, which will kill most virus on contact.
If you doubt this, just Google 'world population control, kissinger, United Nations, 1964' - that will give you the leads to follow!
I have read an awful lot that backs up exactly what you're saying here.
This is a man made flu virous. This is Obama's way to 'freak out' the people so he can invoke martial law in this country.
So...it's a worldwide hoax just so there will be martial law in the US? Interesting.
What I see here are people against the virus being real or as dangerous as you hear and people who do not like Obama's plan for health care. Therefore, his making an announcement that most world leaders have made and the two must be connected.
You can make everything seem to be a conspiracy if you really want to believe it.
Like the man said "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean somebody's not out to get me".
A conspiracy theory is that because, at that time, no evidence has been shown to support it, if the evidence appears and can be reported, it's no longer a theory, it's a conspiracy.
If this 'worldwide hoax' turns out to be a conspiracy in fact, it will still probably be unproven, if the 'plot' is successful nobody knows:
"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason." (Ovid)
Personally I know from reading my bible that we can expect these things to happen, so they don't phase me, but equally I enjoy letting those who seek to establish the NWO know that their secrets are 'out here' for all to see.... trouble is (and the NWO's only salvation) is that like the devil, nobody in the sheeple believe they (the NWO/Illuminatii etc)exist!
Sooooo..... either believe or not, it's your funeral (possibly literally)and all you have to do to find out the truth one way or the other is..... nothing.
As for me and my house.... we will be following God!
Actually children and the elderly are normally most effected by all flu strands. The adolecent age children a demographic that seems to be new. However of the 1500 or so cases 100 or so were childre.
I'm finding more information on this particular aspect of Swine Flu. Turns out many of the child fatalities had other conditions such as asthma, blood disorders, etc. In other words, of the children who have died from Swine Flu, many where not healthy to begin with. I'm still looking for hard numbers and ailments.
So far the figures and ailments are too vague for me to use.
Dan, what age group exactly constitutes adolescents in this context?
They are saying children, young adults and people in their 20s are most at risk...so basically anyone under 30.
He mentioned a less affected category: younger children. Presumably younger than adolescents. I was just wondering what the bounds of the category are.
It's a state of emergency when thousands *might* die ... It's a tragedy when it actually occurs.
If Obama saves thousands of lives by stressing this is a health hazard to a group that usually are immune to dying from the flu (people under their 30s) then he has prevented a tragedy.
I understand that younger people are dying but it still doesn't warrant a national emergency for something that kills 36 times less than the normal flu.
Are we saying that younger people's lives are more valuable and we don't care if older people die from the normal flu?
OK, let's take it without proof that say 15-25 group is more affected. Now, did anybody compared it to regular flu IN THIS GROUP? Like say out of 36000 a year dying from regular flu, 5000 is in this range... Then 1000 or even 2000 a year from swine flu don't really look that bad. Statistics is a tricky science, and you have to know what you are doing to get meaningful results...
People, don't be THAT gullible
Well, I'm just going on what I have heard doctors saying.
To be diagnosed with the flu, you have to have a culture by either a mouth swab sent to a lab or a blood test. If you test positive, you are prescribed Tamiflu. The problem is, the flu is a virus. Tammiflu must be administered within 48 hours and doctors are not “supposed” to write scripts for it until it is actually diagnosed.
Doctors are cautioning on the safe side and issuing scripts based on the symptons alone. If you go to the doctor with a fever, headache and a cough, you will be diagnosed with the flu.
You will become a statistic. The swine flu takes additional tests.
Personnaly, I know two people that were “diagnosed with the swine flu.” Neither of them had a mouth swab or a blood test, both were prescribed Tammiflu and both were told it is treated the same way as Influenza A so there was no need to try and distinguish which flu they had.
My college student is home with the "flu"
Took her to the doctor thinking she might have strep, negative. At the urgent care we took her to, they don't have flu testing, but doctor is 99% sure she has it, H1N1 or regular flu - he said both are the same symptoms - miserable!
So that is #2 in our house 19 & under - and she doesn't live here, she lives at college - but came home as the University strongly suggests student go home to get better.
My son did get pneumonia & strep after flu symptoms began.
I think the biggest cause for concern is the pneumonia and the schools here are seeing a lot of it. The other weird thing here, many of the kids have flu symptoms (body aches, sore throat, cough, runny nose - that hit by a truck feeling) but no fever is presenting. I talked to the school nurse today at a local craft fair and she said the "no fever" is causing issues, because parents are sending their kids to school because they don't have a fever. I say keep 'em home until they feel better!
Ignoring American politics for a moment and concentrating on the H1N1 virus that is currently active across most of the globe, it could be either bad or very bad in terms of its impact.
An earlier strain of the virus spawned the 1918 flu epidemic that killed anywhere from 50 to 100 million people worldwide. That's surely enough to suspect it might be worth further investigation.
It's returned several times since and been less vociferous, yet still killed plenty of people. It's not really a competition between other strains of flu either.
My point is, it's not a conspiracy, it's a real virus that has the potential to get very nasty. Currently no-one knows how bad this outbreak will be, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a "scare" just yet.
But this is the 2nd time they are scaring us with this. Everyone was freaking out about this earlier in the year and all the face masks were sold out.
I still see it as a administration ploy to back healthcare, honestly.
I'm quite sure there's an element of all Government turning events in their favour, in the US as elsewhere. All I'm saying is don't lose sight of the fact that the virus is still pretty ugly regardless of how the politicians choose to spin it.
The only "scare" is coming from the people who do not understand what the declaration means.
It is monetary in nature.
Typically the federal government will not reimburse a hospital for care if that care is administered 250 yards away from the main building. The executive order gives the Secretary of Health and Human Services the power to suspend those rules.
This will make it easier for hospitals to set up "shop" away from other sick people who do not have the flu. It also allows the Secretary to authorize treatment in schools, gymnasiums, and other places that would normally be exempt.
It has nothing to do with forcing people to take the vaccine, quarantine, or any of the other "sky is falling" scenarios so popular with the lunatic fringe.
I did a little googling, because we are coming to the end of the flu season here in the Southern Hemisphere, and have already had the peak of cases for Swine Flu (on the decline here now). It stopped making headlines here months back.
This article gives a round up of what happened in Australia and New Zealand. It's worth reading, since it's likely the same pattern will occur in the US. The only difference I could possibly see is that the health care system in the US may mean people who need critical care may not get it due to having no insurance which could lead to a higher death rate. Aus and NZ have universal health care, btw.
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2 … he_sou.php
It's illegal for hospitals not to accept emergencies if the person doesn't have healthcare. It's not that bad in America...haha.
You will just have a big bill when you get out.
The poor do get reated, they are not turned away, at least here in nashville they are not, cannot speak for other places. Universal health care will not provide for stopping an epidemic, it did not stop it in any country that has it so far.
I assume you read the article? The comment on the health care system I should have perhaps made clearer. I don't doubt that people would be admitted, but they may not seek out the help until it is too late due to the costs involved. I'd imagine a stay in ICU could effectively bankrupt a person. This is not a concern for the two countries where these stats were taken, and could possibly have an impact when comparing to the US.
That's not true. Health care is available to anyone who needs it in the US, and hospitals are required to treat anyone who comes through their doors needing care regardless of ability to pay. The problem is that many people without insurance and - here's the real problem- many people with insurance that turns out to be a ripoff refuse to seek treatment they need- not because they'll be turned away- but because they fear receiving the bills after they've been treated.
Precisely, which is what I meant. The two countries in the article don't have the problem of massive unpayable bills for an ICU stay, and for that reason it may not play out quite the same way in the US. I'm hoping it doesn't mean more deaths among the portion of the population that is uninsured and chooses not to seek medical help.
The southern hemisphere has already been through the worst of the Swine Flu, and in most countries south of the equator it is now on the decline. Seeing what happened there during winter is a good indication of where things might be going in the US, Canada and Europe. But I've noticed most people don't let the facts get in the way of a good panic. The media must be stirring things up something fierce right now.
I'm sitting back, waiting to see if it now mutates. That's what happened in 1918. It was the second and third strains that caused most of the deaths. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, it's a waiting game.
There have been "swine flus" throughout history. They tried to convince everyone in the 1976 swine flu outbreak that they needed the vaccine. You have to ask the question (latin) qi bono? Who benefits form this mass hysteria? The (pharmaceutical) drug cartels-that's who. I think they whip everyone into a frenzy just to get everyone on doctor drugs and vaccines.
When I saw commercial on TV about "restless leg syndrome" I knew exatly what it was about. It was about getting more people on drugs for the rest of their lives to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The drug industry is to blame for the rising health care problem almost exclusively. The more new drugs (that don't CURE anything) they can get people on, the more we have to pay for insurance. That is why many of us cannot afford insurance.
The N1H1 is confirmed to be in the area in which I live. I personally know one person who got it. You can drink some mullein tea, pop some echinecea capsules, and eat lemons and oranges all day sitting right next to another that has taken Tamaflu for it. Watch who gets better quicker.
Yeah. My legs were jumpy for a while. I started exercising and drinking more water. Problem solved.
Was that a real commercial for a real drug? Sorry if it was Portamenteff, I thought you were kidding.
I quit doing swine flu reports becuase I found out first hand they were not using correct numbers. The only count they have of the ones with h1n1 are the ones that have been hospitalized in ICU, children who develop pnemonia or death. My three year old recently had the swine flu and it is really not as bad as I thought, although when I asked the DR. if this would be reported to the CDC he said no.So, all cases are not bing reported, so I stopped giving out false information.
It is a way to boost the economy and make the pharmacutical companies stock go up up up, at our expense.
Don't drink the Kool-aid
Ahhh good old restless leg syndrome. The person who came up with that and a drug to fix it is a genius!
I love reading conspiracy theories because they are never wrong and you can't argue with them. The lack of evidence just empowers them because someone is covering it up which just further proves they are right.
They do throw a lot of drugs out there, more in the US than anywhere else it seems.
It's like social anxiety disorder. When I was growing up it meant you were shy not that you needed medication.
LDT, they seem to be claiming that this current swine flu is more dangerous to adolescents through thirty year olds, while sparing babies and small children, the middle-aged and the elderly. Is this NOT true?
No it's not. I had relatives at ground zero when this flu first broke. Did you check out the Time article? Ever wonder why they put him in isolation? Why keep him from calling his family? Wouldn't the fact that Bodilla was ambulatory reassure the public instead of panicking them?
Plus these "claims" are being made by a government which is trying like nobody's business to push a universal healthcare option despite a majority of the public being against such a measure. Since they "never let a (manufactured) crisis go to waste" do you think the CDC has a bit of an interest in pushing this as the greatest plague on mankind since the AIDS epidemic?
Consider where most flu bugs originate. China. The Hong Kong flu, which is the most current of the flu pandemics, began in a China whiplashed by the Cultural Revolution. This was a time in which "intellectuals" were persuaded to go into the countryside. This had a massive effect on food production, as you can't take a city boy and turn them into a farmer overnight. Do you think that maybe this disruption had something to do with the emergence of the Hong Kong flu?
Plus the Hong Kong flu was a derivative of the avian flu, therefore it spread much farther, much quicker than one derived from H1N1. GI's returning brought it to the New World and it became global in scope.
There is nothing similar about this particular outbreak. There is not great upheaval going on like China's Cultural Revolution during the Hong Kong event, nor is there a mass slaughter like there was in Europe's Great War during the Spanish Flu event. Simply put the conditions don't exist by which a flu can rapidly mutate.
Until and unless I hear something like cytokine storm, this will just be another run of the mill flu.
Well, I guess every doctor I have heard on the news is wrong then.
I guess so. Pretty easy - media pick only those who agree with the main line of the party.
Nope. This is the same crowd that claims Obama is trying to take everyone's rights away...no matter what the subject is.
This Swine Flu is similar to Spanish Flu in that it appears to affect young people much more severely. Estimates are that one in ten fatalities are people twenty-five or younger. It is also estimated that one in seven who end up in ICU with Swine Flu are pregnant.
No, you are right.
Another factor why world leaders are calling for immunization is the capacity for viruses like the H1N1 too give their hosts a false sense of security until they have infected a huge number of people and then turn really nasty as happened when the flue last wiped out millions.
Obama is one of many world leaders to announce this, those of you who want to turn this in to an anti Obama thing, probably blame him for the weather too!
LDT, I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the current crisis, but you said something about intellectuals going into the countryside and participating in agriculture. Are you suggesting that allowing intellectuals to raise farm animals is what causes flu epidemics?
I'm just asking, because I'd hate to cause an epidemic by raising chickens...
LOL I think LDT meant generally stressed out people in big numbers.
Did you read what I wrote? Mao's cultural revolution, which included sending intellectuals into the countryside, caused a famine coupled with malnutrition. You can't turn a city boy into a farmer overnight. The fact that these newly minted farmers didn't know what they were doing, contributed to the problem.
It was this mass disruption and the concurrent malnutrition over several years which provided a breeding ground for massive mutation of the avian flu strain that mutated into the Hong Kong flu. There was also a war going on at the time, which aided in both the mutation of the flu and helped spread it around the world.
The 2006 Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act allows the DHHS Secretary to invoke complete immunity from liability for manufacturers of vaccines and drugs used to combat a declared public health emergency. PREPA removes the right to a jury trial for persons injured by a covered vaccine. A CRISIS!
Here is the problem: once the PREP Act is invoked to shield manufacturers from liability, the pharmaceutical firms have no financial incentive to makethe safest product, and have a negative incentive to test it for safety. As
long as they do not deliberately harm consumers of the product, they willnot be liable for damages.
Secretary Sibelius has not only given
immunity to the makers of Tamiflu and Relenza for injuries stemming from their use against swine flu. She also granted immunity to future swine flu vaccines and “any associated adjuvants,”
An adjuvant is added to a vaccine to make it stretch. adjuvant can cause your immune system to go haywire. Case in point: the anthrax vaccine given to Gulf War soldiers. An adjuvant called squalene was added to that vaccine to make it stretch further. But many blame squalene for causing the so-called Gulf War Syndrome
From what I understand none of the five companies authorized to produce the vaccine in the U.S. are allowed to use adjuvants.
What 5 US companies? The ones who's are not actually in the US, right? AstraZeneca's MedImmune unit, CSL Ltd., GlaxoSmithKline P.L.C., Novartis A.G. and Sanofi-Aventis S.A.
Here's the breakdown and the percentage of all doses to be made.
* Novartis at 46% of all doses
* Sanofi Pasteur at 26% of all doses
* CSL at 19% of all doses
* MedImmune at 6% of all doses
* GlaxoSmithKline at 3% of all doses
I don't understand the second question. The U.S. Sanofi Pasteur vaccine lab is in Pennsylvania.
Novartis vaccines are developed in Washington State.
CSL's vaccine is being developed in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. CSL is a German company.
The MedImmune vaccine is being developed in Mountain View, California. MedImmune is a division of AstraZeneca.
The GlaxoSmithKline vaccine is being developed in Marietta, Pennsylvania.
These may not all be U.S. companies, but the vaccines they are all developing are being developed here in the U.S.
Unless, that is, Pennsylvania seceeded from the Union.
What are you implying anyway?
Clinical trials of the H1N1 vaccine are under way, and five companies are making it for the U.S. market—AstraZeneca's MedImmune unit, CSL Ltd., GlaxoSmithKline P.L.C., Novartis A.G. and Sanofi-Aventis S.A.
British drug giant AstraZeneca PLC agreed to pay $58 a share in an all-cash $15.2 billion transaction for MedImmune, Inc., a Maryland-based mid-cap biotech
GlaxoSmithKline plc is a United Kingdom-based pharmaceutical, biological company.
Novartis International AG is based in Switzerland
Sanofi-Aventis headquartered in Paris, France,
Baxter has supply contracts with five countries, including Britain, Ireland and New Zealand, but not the United States.
Again, what are you implying?
Did you miss the part where all the vaccines are being developed here...primarily in Pennsylvania?
I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstood, these are the companies developing the h1n1 shot! None of them are American based companies........................ But I did find another article:
A novel feature of the two H1N1 vaccines being developed by companies Novartis and Glaxo-Smith Kline is the addition of squalene-containing adjuvants to boost immunogenicity and dramatically reduce the amount of viral antigen needed. This translates to much faster production of desired vaccine quantities. UPDATE: The US does not plan to use novel adjuvants in its swine flu vaccines. However, Canada and some other nations do plan to use them.
I didn't misunderstand. You didn't answer the question. Here's the question. What are you implying?
Maybe the next time you vote for a senator you'll base your vote on more than a single issue.
By golly that's what I said five posts ago. It isn't that they are not planing to use them, they are not allowed to use them.
By the way, the other nations planning to use adjuvants, also plan to offer vaccines without them.
Now what does any of this have to do with Obama attempting to take control of the country?
Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told Congress Wednesday that delays in the release of H1N1 vaccines have shown that the United States is far too dependent on other countries for the manufacture of vaccines, and that vaccine technology must be improved. Four of the five manufacturers of H1N1 vaccines are foreign companies, a fact that alarmed lawmakers
I'm implying that we are not producing it in the US.
I had some time on my hands and I was trying to make a point. The point was that you are always asking other people to prove what they say, yet you throw out misinformation, then want to change the subject when it’s contradicted. It took me 5 post and 30 minutes. Please try to back up some of your ‘rhetoric’ sometimes.
I didn't throw out ANY misinformation. That's your specialty.
What did I contradict? And I didn't change the subject. The subject is Obama Declared a National Emergency for H1N1 2009. By the way, H1N1 2009 is the real name of the virus.
It was the four musketeers who changed the tone and subject of the forum. You know Larry, Curly, Moe, and Manny. Or is that Manny, Moe, Jack and Curly? I never could keep those clowns straight.
For the fourth time all vaccines are being manufactured here, in the United States. South of Canada, North of Mexico and between the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.
You see, Pennsylvania is well within the boundaries I just described and three of the five companies mentioned are manufacturing the vaccines in Pennsylvania...an American state...as you may remember from your grade-school civics classes.
The fifth company is manufacturing the vaccine in Mountain View, California. Also an American state.
It is you that needs to back up the rhetoric. Try it sometime.
Five posts and thirty minutes later and you really didn't read what I wrote...did you?
Trying to discuss things with you is like talking to a rock.
You are incorrect.
All of the companies are foreign owned, but the vaccines are being produced by all five here in the United States. Again, for the third time, primarily in Pennsylvania...a U.S. state.
Two are Swiss (Novartis and AstraZeneca), another French (Sanofi Pasteur), another Australian (CSL), and another (GlaxoSmithKline) based the U.K.
Why congress would be alarmed is amuzing. They voted to allow these companies to operate in the U.S.
Now I'm quite certain quite a few current senators didn't vote for this, but any elected official should be aware of what they are inheriting should they not?
Once more a topic of discussion becomes a conspiracy convention.
How does America go forward with all these people seeing conspiracies in every thing their government does?
The real question is how does America get so completely side-tracked by a handful of loud obnoxious kooks? The moto seems to be never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
It still amazes me. I have traveled extensively in America, and met very few of these loonies. Do they all live in some hidden valley somewhere?
this link has factual information on what a "national emergency" means: and for a right-wing news site this is a pretty balanced article
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vi … eId=113964
get the truth at mercola.com..I
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic … mated.aspx
this is an interview with Barbara Fischer, founder of the National Vaccine Information Center
I hope people are continuing to put the pieces together that media is fallible, as well as government and pharmaceutical companies...
wholistically/holistically speaking,take your health in your own hands to a greater degree and get fully informed from all perspectives...we are individuals with the right to be fully informed of facts and issues...but we have to look for the answers ourselves by sorting through everything that is offered.
and remember...fears and anxieties can contribute to ones health, stay positive, get the facts and perspectives and have faith in your decisions to make the best choices
Once again, and for the last time, the vaccine is NOT produced in the US: Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told Congress Wednesday that delays in the release of H1N1 vaccines have shown that the United States is far too dependent on other countries for the manufacture of vaccines, and that vaccine technology must be improved.
http://www.ktla.com/health/sns-health-s … 2506.story
Please read it!
Meriden biopharmaceutical is the only one who recently began producing it in the US.
I agree about the mutations. I mentioned earlier that these viruses are so successful because they seem to be pretty good strategists, and can wait until they have a lot of hosts before they turn on the juice big time and kill as they have done before.
Then why did you claim that this flu has killed mostly children, then try to link it to the Spanish Flu?
Again you seem to be unable to read what I write. I said 10% of the deaths are people twenty-five or younger. That's not "mostly."
All you have to do is go back and actually read what I wrote.
I'm not the one pointing out the similarities of Swine to Spanish Flu. That's what virologists are saying.
I read somewhere recently about the 1970's vaccine that came out for swine flu causing paralysis in its takers. Anyone know of reliable sources about this side effect of untested vaccines?
The number of cases of Guillain–Barré Syndrom spiked during that vaccination drive. The CDC neither confirms or denies that the vaccine was responsible. They just don't know. This is one of the reasons why the CDC is paying universities to track side-effect this flu season. They want a better handle on what side-effects the winter and swine flu vaccines may create.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain-B … 9_syndrome
yes, its true.
"Guillain Barre is pretty rare, affecting only about one or two people in every 100,000.
In 1976 there were several cases of Guillain Barre diagnosed after patients received the flu shot and it's been the subject of numerous studies.
The CDC reports most found no association, but there are two exceptions that found the vaccine may have increased the risk slightly. That's still just one in a million."
Keep in mind that there is a CLEAR difference in medical terms when they state "Association" In medicine there are Associations and Causations....basicially speaking to a trend versus root cause. It did happen.
There was an increase in Guillain Barre diagnosis in the 70's following flu vaccinations.
Clearly, I had a different source, but the CDC official interviewed on this particular topic stated that they simply did not have enough data to either confirm or deny a Guillain Barre connection. I thought that was a much more honest response than 'no, it wasn't the vaccine.'
keep in mind that its called "Practicing Medicine" for a reason....
your normally better off just reading the studies in medical journals and deciding what's best for your self. Also consider your family medical history. For instance a co-worker of mine's mother did get diagnosed with Guillian Barre following a flu shot. Because of that he doesn't get the flu shot.
If you look up studies on the human immune system you will find that all kinds of strange diagnosis follow immune system changes. The change could be disease, vaccination or body chemistry driven. However the results of the studies only show an "Association" in most cases.
Also of interest are the disclosures....The CDC, NEJM all list disclosures of "Possible Conflict of Interest". These are allways great sources for conspiracy theories. Here you will find doctors who are on the CDC Board of direcors who formerly worked for vaccine companies and vice versa. Its all very interesting, but can you really every know the truth? Maybe..maybe not.
The government indemnified the drug companies from lawsuits if their "vaccines" killed or harmed anyone. As far as I know, this is still the case.
I read the same thing. Though Salon is sometimes a questionable source this is not a bad write-up. There is some definite Op-Ed writing in this, but it's also peppered with hard facts.
http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2009/0 … swine_flu/
I didn't get it from Salon, although that is one place I read about it.
The 2006 Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act allows the DHHS Secretary to invoke complete immunity from liability for manufacturers of vaccines and drugs used to combat a declared public health emergency. PREPA removes the right to a jury trial for persons injured by a covered vaccine.
Here is a "question and answer" FAQ on PREP.
http://www.hhs.gov/disasters/emergency/ … ne-qa.html
It is quite broad in it's protections. It appears to indemnify anyone who might administer a "counter-measure" (the act's wording), including the United States itself. Amazing!
I went with my daughter today to the OBGYN, and rec'd a leaflet on the H1n1 vaccine. Among other things, this is what is says:
LAIV is approved for people from 2 through 49 years of age who are not pregnant and do not have certain health conditions (see number 5 below). Groups recommended to receive 2009 H1N1 LAIV first are healthy people who: • are from 2 through 24 years of age, • are from 25 through 49 years of age and -live with or care for infants younger than 6 months of age, or -are health care or emergency medical personnel. As more vaccine becomes available, other healthy 25 through 49 year olds should also be vaccinated. Note: While certain groups should not get LAIV – for example pregnant women, people with long-term health problems, and children from 6 months to 2 years of age – it is important that they be vaccinated . They should get the flu shot.
Limabean, since you never believe what I write, here is the pdf for you:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/do … v-h1n1.pdf
That information falls right in line with what I've been finding and on the CDC and Health and Human Services site reporting about.
I'm assuming that LAIV is "flumist" since that is not recommended for pregnant women. I'm curious; did they also give you a card so you can report any side-effects?
According the the CDC site they are supposed to issue information cards with a web-address. Any side effects, no matter how mild, are to go to into an Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting database.
I know a lot of money is being spent on this, but it could help prevent a recurrence of the Guillain-Barré Syndrome scare back in the 70s.
Oops. Just looked at the PDF. Very good; that's it!
And thank you very much for the information!
We did recieve a card and this was the web address, it's a direct link to pdf info from the CDC. This info was for the nasal spray, there is another for the shot, not yet available.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/do … t-h1n1.pdf
Yes, initially the injectable vaccine was supposed to available mid-October, then it slipped to the end of October, now the CDC is saying mid-November. Still, some shipments of the vaccine have gone out. I'm just not finding how many and where they are going. At least not on a national level.
Thanks again jiberish. You are awesome.
I've added the PDF link you supplied in my "Tracking Swine Flu Vaccine Side-Effects" hub.
If you have a claim this is where you have to go, you have one year to file in case of death.
This link to the CDC's site gives the number of vaccines distributed by date, if you scroll down it show numbers by state:
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/ … supply.htm
Kind of embarrassing in a way. This is a much simpler web-address than I expected and was therefore looking for.
I spend a lot of time researching, and I come across a lot of news and other things not in the mainstream. This Vaccine is troubling because of so much misinformation given to the public. I have relatives in Europe who are doctors, and others in the medical field, from what I've heard, the general public should be safe enough, but with the rush in production, many in the medical field have quetions.
Here is an interesting article on WEB MD, be sure to go to pages 3 & 4...
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/ … ccine-when
UPDATE: Obama's Kids & the vaccine:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2009/10/ … rst-family
Yea, I read about this the other day....pretty interesting. It would seem that the advice he is following is not whats been advertised? Again you mentioned misinformation.
So they want their daughters protected, but won't get the shot themselves until the rest of the nation (the at risk groups) are taken care of.
And what, pray tell, is wrong with that?
If swine flu was that big of a risk and the shot was so good, then his daughter would have the shot. The very fact that his own children aren't getting the shot is a red flag.
I guess you missed this:
"Malia and Sasha were both vaccinated for H1N1 last week, after the vaccine became available to Washington, DC schoolchildren. "
His daughters DID get the shot. That's what the article says.
Exactly, they aren't in the age group that is most at risk.
I never said there was anything wrong with it! Just stating the facts.
I would "have" to question that. Even if it says they did.
"The Swine Flu kills kids and the elderly. It is in no way like the Spanish Flu. Different pathology, different mechanism. "
No...swine flu kills kids and young adults...
"The problem with making this "preemptive" is because it will be seen as a politician stunt. It's no surprise that this is being done at a time in which we are discussing socialized healthcare and will be seen as a tactic used to scare people into shutting up. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it will be seen that way, which will hamper it's effectiveness during a real emergency. "
It is happening all over the world...not just in the US...
Great, sources please. From all that I've seen Swine Flu kills kids and the elderly. If you can prove that statement to be wrong, please do so.
As for the rest of the world, I don't really care. What they do or don't do has nothing to do withe me and mine, they're free to do as they wish.
Then you can't say it's all a plot to get socialized medicine...
I found this one quote:
"Dr. Anne Schuchat, the C.D.C's interim deputy director for science and public health, said that in the United States, most of those that had been hospitalized because of swine flu were in the 5 to 24 year old age bracket (62%), and those over 55 accounted for only 1%.
Of course, you probably won't accept the source
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/2 … mode=print
Can't say that I trust the source much, you're right, but you did find some data. Do you have any for death rates? Is there anything you've found to suggest that death is due to a cytokine storm or is it due to secondary infections like pneumonia? The answers to those questions are potentially very important.
It would also be nice to see the raw data. I've seen too many instances of "lies, damn lies and statistics" to take things at face value.
Well heck, everyone knows that young-adulthood starts after twenty-five.
Umm, hospitalized and died is a bit different, doncha think?
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