There is no way for us to know if our morals that we have today is the right ones or not. Our Morals are made out of our "Common Sense".
If we don't know if we have the right morals or not, then can we truly trust our conscience when it's based on the society/governmental morals?
The common sense is based on what we learn in the years of 2-7 from our parents, and our parents have learned from their parents etc. later on you learn things from school, media, religion, politics and you are always influenced by what is right and wrong from the society. The same way as your parents have been.
If we think about the National Socialistic (Nazi) way of reasoning and how they got their "common sense", then it isn't any different from our way.
They made jokes about the Jews, comedy shows that was harassing the Jews, they gave out child books that made the Jews look bad, etc. Eventually it became normal for all the Germans to treat the Jews as nonhuman. It became their common sense.
What if what I think is right, is wrong according to the society? If the common sense disturbs me? If I think that human life holds no value?
Does that make me a person with psychosis/split personalities/Schizophrenia?
I also have this hunger for something that I cannot put my finger on, something that is far greater than sexual intercourse and such. I get a bit depressed when I don't fulfill it..
We all have problems, we always will have problems etc. "So why not be happy about your problems? accept them as a part of yourself instead of fighting it, so you can truly be free. Even if it may be a 'defect' as judged by today's way of thinking". is it wrong of me to think like that? why is it wrong?
Thank you all for your answers in advance!
I don't think it was "common sense" that the people who mocked the Jews, etc., were using! If they had used their common sense, they'd have related it to themselves and realized that mocking and dehumanizing someone is hurtful to any human.
I distinguish between morality and ethics. Ethics are prohibitions meaning we don't do that period. An entity given a value retains that value no matter the circumstance. Like in India a cow is always holy. Morality is rules for do what you want, with no absolute prohibitions. Value is established by degrees of conformance to the least as nature, and most as progressive development and perfection. That which conforms more
closely to perfection is given moral protection. That which conforms the least is a free-fire zone - anything goes.
Common sense is also gained by experience at a very young age. Fire is hot, ice is cold, the further the fall the more it hurts, etc. But then, religion, selfishness, jealousy, and other human emotions, tend to make one not adhere to the common sense database as much as it should.
But this does not take into consideration our very basic human instincts developed over hundreds of thousands of years.
It originates from the construct of things. There is no profit in nature. For indigenous people the construct of nature as no profit is an ethic. Profit is prohibited. A deer is a beautiful creature, and a human necessity of need, as meat and hide. The deer is not means to money as ten deer equal x amount of money.
Nature does not make a profit so it has no meaning, where meaning is time invested should produce more than one had before. What has no meaning has no value thus can be turned into money. Morality is created to regulate the carnage, but it didn't help the buffalo.
Common sense is what you learn from the accumulation of scars!
But the question remains, is what you learn really the right things?
Related to self called compassion and not condemn non-believers to hell.
JMMBS, After reading through your forum post I feel that you may be using the term "common sense" interchangebly with "core belief systems" In my opinion they are two different things. Common sense is that life preserver that gets us through the day, it is composed almost entirely of critical thinking made of big patches of cause and effect. Core beliefs on the other hand are those things that are ingrained in us by our families, society, and ourselves over our lifetime. Core belifs compose each of our egos, or who we believe ourselves to be, they form our opinions, our behaviors, and the way we think about others and ourselves. They may be true or untrue, and can be beneficial or damaging.
Core beliefs are at the root of the atrosities of history that you have sited in your forum topic. People who have had strong damaging core beliefs have initiated these events and forced their beliefs on others by attempting to make these core beliefs norms of society, they want to make their own personal reality everyone else reality as well.
The overall point that I am attempting to make here is common sense is a good thing created to keep us out of trouble. Core beliefs are subjective and we should all be evaluating the accuracy of our own core beliefs and their origins, especially if we are exibiting damaging behavior towards ourselves or others. Common sense can be a helpful tool in helping us to recognize if we follow some damaging belief patterns. We all have the ability to modify core beliefs that are damaging, or limiting if we are willing to accept that they are just beliefs, they may not be true, and we can be ok accepting a new belief (even better than ok in many cases). This acceptance and willingness to change is what makes the difference between the short sited power hungry EGO driven monsters of our past, as opposed to empathetic, reflective, healthy human beings.
Embrace common sense, evaluate core beliefs.
That is all.
Thank you so much for you answer, it got me a rethinker. So basicly, common sense is my sensations that is from natural experiences that even animals can have?
Sort of. Common sense is; A leads to B leads to C, and if I do not wish to experience C then I may not want to proceed with A. Mammals are capable of this type of thinking, they use the part of their brain that retains memory to produce critical thought of that sort, but I want to be sure not to confuse common sense in the animal discussion with instinct (fight or flight).
Okey, thanks alot for the explanation. Now I fully trust my common sense
The thing's I don't have any hope for is our so called "Core belief systems" that you so wonderfully named it.
And animal instinct is just fighting for survival etc, it's easy to understand.
One more thing, if I am to rephrase your topic to say:
What if "my core beliefs" disturb me. Which is what I think you are really asking, I would say you are one of those empathetic, reflective, healthy human beings as I mentioned. Keep doing that, and see if you find any beleifs that may suite you better with a tune up.
The road to happiness and self fullfilment lies in that...
I made my account 1 day ago, so I don't know how to change the title.
What is it that makes you think of me as a empathetic person? A reflective, yes I am indeed.
You appear through your forum description to recognize the effect that ones actions have on others. People who lack empathy do not perceive the effect they have on others, they can't put themselves in other peoples shoes.
No need to change the title, that was just me rephrasing to fit, your doing fine. I don't think you can edit a forum topic after post anyway. It's a good topic.
Yes I understand what harm that can be done to others if I make the wrong choices and that is because it's how I was brought up.
But I doubt if I should take that in consideration, because it's blocking the view of my personal needs that I seem to have a urge to fill.
Sometimes I get this hollow feeling inside that cannot be subdued with alcohol, sex or cigarettes. It's a hunger for something, something that I fear is destructive. And don't get me wrong now, I'm not a wreck that waste every woken hour on drinking and that kinds of things.
The need that I feel, I cannot describe it as anything other than a lust for taking a life.
But with the current way of thinking that is accepted by the society makes me find no valid reason for taking someone else life. There just aren't any reason good enough. But I feel this need, it is constantly haunting me and makes me fall into depression bit by bit.
If you are seriously feeling a potential desire to 'kill' and are battling with it, and you admit you are getting depressed as a result, I really strongly suggest you do get some kind of counseling or help before you risk acting on it. Honestly, don't leave it until you make a mistake that you could live to regret for the rest of your life, or one that could effect others for the rest of theirs. It may never happen, but is it worth taking that chance when there is help available. You may only need something as simple as some good quality counseling combined with anti-depressants.
I understand exactly what you are describing, in my own life having struggled with issues of my own I have ultimately discovered that at the base of these things lies the very thing we have been discussing. If it is a bothersome to you and it sounds as if it is you should explore what is driving this. The best time to evaluate these core beliefs is when you discover that there may be undesirable thoughts or behaviors in your life that are beginning to run you, that is a clear sign that it must be found and replaced. Thought produces a feeling, feeling produces behavior. Belief Systems are where thoughts live.
You did not ask for this but I'll offer it anyway, next time you feel depressed or have these haunting thoughts or urges, try to stop yourself to see if you can use that reflective skill to identify what triggered it. The more you become aware of these things the closer you will get to the source that fuels the fire. Some people have the ability to change things of this nature on their own, but sometimes the help of others is needed. The hardest place to see is right where you are, this is why someone outside the situation can be helpful. You can take that or leave it, I admit it is unsolicited advice but I was compelled to give it all the same.
Beyond all that just being aware that there is an issue sets change in motion, whether you know it or not you are already working toward something better.
I've gone to a counselor/therapist, I understand the means of "Thought - Feeling - Act" (It was to get me happy, but it tipped back over, because it's boring to have everything perfect), but this seems to run deeper. And yes, I will continue to find the source of this.
I'm also wondering;
If a person kills and think it's righteous, then is he mentally ill or does he just have other core beliefs?
And could you please validate in what category this event is connected to;
I had a girlfriend, she was nice and all, but I noticed that something was different about her. First I thought it was aspergers because she did not get hinty jokes. But my mother, a alchohol/drug and social therapist that works in the women's jail in Sweden, could tell that it was boarderline.
Because of the fact that more than half of the women in the prison have borderline made me become very protective of myself. I became like a changed person.
My absolutely first thoughts was how I was going to lure her out, kill her, dump the body etc. Kill or be killed. That was my thoughts..
(And it might be good to say that I broke up with her right after I realized her illness).
Oh my... Borderline... You and I are beginning to have more in common than I once imagined. I am very closely related to two borderlines, and for years I had no idea I just knew something was not right with these people they made me very uncomfortable and were nearly impossible to have a coherant conversation with, I always felt drained and sometimes sick to my stomach after an interaction. In their presence there is never a lack of drama and flip flopping, they are human roller coasters. As this psychological condition was explained to me; they can function comfortably only from either a narcissistic perspective, or victim. They generally do not progress as they don't feel comfortable moving out of these perspectives. Very moody (wild mood swings), since they operate only from self absorbed perspectives they often lack the empathy we have talked about, everything done is to feed their victim or their narcissist, and they will manipulate to the extreme to attain this secondary gain making them seem somtimes compassionate but its not real, any compassion is to get what they want.
I don't know how to catagorize your experience with this, but I can tell you that my own experiences with these people leave me feeling trapped, because by nature they are trapped, so they project that into their realtionships. They are very manipulative and suck people in, one of the characteristics is they won't let go as its an afront to the EGO (narcissist) and they take it as being taken advantage of even in completely reasonable situations (victim) when trying to separate themselves. This is why so many women in prison suffer from this, they do something drastic due to these core beliefs they operate on, and they don't want to fix it, they like it, fixing it would require taking responsibility victims nor narcissist do that.
I can definitely see why you may jump to a conclusion that the only way out is for her to just go away, but there are ways to deal with them that I have been made aware.
For you personally you may want to focus on not the conclusion your jumping to, but what your avoiding by jumping to that conclusion of having this person gone as the best way to handle the situation. There may be something in that, some underlying fear of confrontation, or failure that is driving you towards drastic thoughts of removing the situation. I would reccomend you explore that further. Its your life do what you want, as long as your doing what you want and bot just reacting to something erronoues, you will find yourself unhappy if this is the case.
I wonder have you ever spoken with a Hypnotist? It sounds as if there are thoughts and behaviors you are having that you do not wish to have and that is precisely what we (I am a certified Hypnotist) work with. Hypnotist help others find there way to the root of the problem and or facilitate the process for an individual to modify that core belief driving that thought or behavior one wishes to be rid of. There are many ways to respond to situations, but due to our core beliefs we limit ourselves sometimes to thinking we have to react in some particular way that is unnecessary or damaging, and we may even think that is the only option.
I have to let you know again that through your statements you have shown an awareness of your issue and also some level of discomfort, that in and of itself is the beginning of making things better. You do have empathy. Most people have bad thoughts, but not many are bold enough to confront them or even let others know they have them.
Wow, that was quite a tangent, I just went on, I hope there is something insightful in all that.
This is in response the question of if someone is to kill another are they crazy or is it due to what they feel morally right embedded in their core beliefs. I would have to say that is a very subjective question and would have to be answered on a case by case basis. There are cases of people with things like paranoid schizophrenia and the like killing others becaus of things that are not real. And there are many examples of people killing for what they belive is right like in wars for example. There is no one size fits all answer to that.
Hm, yeah, but what is reality is quite subjective. Reality holds huge belief, like the faith in a god or faith in science. If you believe something is real, then it is. We all have our own point of view and we all have our own realities. The only problem for a person with "paranoid schizophrenia" is that their reality doesn't match others at the same depth as "normal" people do. Why should it be labored wrong? How can we with 100% certainty say that it is something defect?
And it is also a proof that a free thinking society is two edged, because it gives birth to people that doesn't "get in line" and doesn't blindly believe everything they learn (kind of like me) and at the same time, a huge development in individuals. And a society with strict dictatorship acts the same way, but it does it in a faster pace. Everything have it's both sides and nothing will last forever. Soon the society will plunge into chaos once more, and naturally, it will turn back into balance once more after the chaos.
The economy and all the disasters caused by global warming is proof of this. I don't take it as a sign that the bible is true or something like that, I believe that it's the natural circle of all that is made. All that we do have consequences.
This is the only thing that you for certain can call fate.
^ Maybe this is of some help to understand me more.
I know this, but I don't give a darn about humans suffering from natural disasters and I don't care so much for the earth, because when everything comes around.. nothing can last forever.
"how I can be alive on the inside" You have to clear your mind so nothing in it, big empty room. If it is filled with junk nothing in the moment can come in. If it a vacuum it will fill itself. The deal is to just let it all flow through to an empty room again. Separate the mind in the present from the memory.
What is instinct in people? I can't think of a single thing.
Common sense is a type of thinking and we learn it (if we're going to learn it) from parents when parents nurture that particular kind of thinking. The person (even a young child) whose common sense was nurtured enough that he has a lot of it, will use that common sense to determine whether what he hears from others (including parents) seems to make sense to him.
So, if a parent were a tell a child, for example, that the moon is made of cheese; a child would most likely hear other people saying it isn't. He might see things on TV that point out what the moon really is. He'd then be able to use his common sense to easily see that what his parents said about the moon didn't make any sense. His common sense might make him wonder why, the, if the moon is made of cheese, it doesn't turn green and moldy (the way he's seen cheese turn in his mother's refrigerator).
Common sense isn't particularly about what's right and wrong. That's something else. Common sense, though, is the thing that helps a person know how to "be a person" (with feelings, respect for others, compassion, empathy, etc. etc.). The person without some of those things (and some others) isn't a whole person (doesn't know "how to be a whole person"). Hitler wasn't a "whole person". It doesn't appear he had the common sense to easily see that every person on Earth is a unique individual but has a whole lot of things in common with every other person on Earth. He either didn't have the common sense to "be a whole person", or else he had it, disregarded what he saw, and chose to be evil for his own purposes (which means not having compassion or respect for others, which in turn means - again - not being a whole person).
An example of one person thinking something is wrong and society's generally thinking it's OK might be the issue of vegetarianism. Vegetarians have a different belief about what is wrong than a lot of society does; but it is compassion for animals that makes them think as they do. They aren't psychopaths because they have compassion and empathy and respect for the life of other creatures. So, I'd say if someone thinks differently about right and wrong than most of society does, the measure of whether that person is a "psychopath" or "sociopath" might be whether his different thinking comes from compassion and from putting his own ego and wishes/needs aside; or whether his different thinking comes from his disregard for what will cause harm, pain, or suffering to someone else and his acting on what he thinks he "right" out of his own ego, desires, needs, or wishes.
Common sense is nothing more than a type of intelligence. It can be found in people who are good and in people who are evil. People who listened to Hitler's "crap" and believed it weren't using their own common sense. They were listening to what someone else told them. Hitler wasn't using any common sense (if he even had any) when he had to know that history and the world had plenty of cruel, rotten and/or stupid non-Jewish people in them; and yet he still presumably believed that there was, or could be, a "master race".
The way parents "teach" (whether they intend to teach it or not) child to hate, or to just accept information that isn't in keeping with any common sense, is to not encourage them to think for themselves (and sometimes intimidate them from daring to question what they're told). That's how Hitler worked too - intimidation, manipulation, disregard and disrespect for the fact that each and every human being (including children) is an individual of value, the potential for inner strength, morality, and all the things that make good people what they are.
There is no instinct to kill. Reptile brain controls things like automatic function of organs like breathing. Something feeling to take whatever may be suppressed anger about something. Could try doing analysis, what do I hate? Let the feelings flow, don't think just feel, wherever they take you, and write down the answers. Once identified the reasons can come later.
I really think it would be a good idea to go and speak to one of your college tutors about how you feel. Your mum's job may have affected/altered the way you see women, the ones she works with are a very small minority of women. This girl may just have had a different type of personality to the other girls you have met.
I do think you need to speak to someone who understands such things properly but who is not say a family friend or relative, to get advice. If you have a college tutor that you trust ask them to have an informal and private talk with you about this.
I am definitely sure you are not a crazy person. You are just philosophically inquisitive. I am a no philosopher, sociologist, or whatever but I do think morality is just an idea. You can never say something is right as it is wrong because with flow of ideas comes a constant and perpetual potential for change. Everything in this world is governed by relativity.
In terms of your premise that morality comes from a person's common sense, that I have to agree. However, I do believe that a person's common sense is solely hallmark within the first two to seven years of life. You increase your perceptive awareness as you grow older and there are times when your acquired beliefs or common sense are rectified or opposed by your new discoveries. When that happens, a person is subjected to a series of self reflection and inquiry. Just about the exact thing you're doing right now. But that's a good thing because you showed me that you're making use of your neurons in a unique and special kind of endeavor.
However, I am a nurse. I don't know if my statements make sense to you. If they do not, then my apologies for you...
So basically you're saying that my thoughts and questions is normal for a person that is philosophically questioning their life/environment etc?
Thank you, it is quite helpful for me
Personally, I don't think there's something wrong being different. You're welcome buddy. You know what, I think you better start channeling those questions and reasons in to writing and let us see where it gets you.
Your analogy of common sense is confused with a group or social norm that became acceptable. To abuse Jews so called common sense was based on the result of what they desired to achieve. Telling someone that they are wrong common sense tells me that there is a good chance that they will not take it well. In all reality I find that common sense never works in solving a problem. Sex equals the chance of a baby and lets terminate it for instance. Right or wrong we never accept the fact that sex was the problem and not the unwanted pregnancy. I am not arguing the issue but making the point that common sense is excluded from the decision making process after the fact. When we have the worst health crisis occurring in our country we deny the truth or the facts and even stop looking for the problem. When given the truth we refuse to change but our willing to do insane things such as sucking the fat out of our body. There is no common sense in a society that does not accept the truth to a problem. Those who abused the Jews did not realize that they would suffer the same fate if they desired to no longer be part of the group. If your child or elderly parents were defective or disagreed they could be murdered as well. Once you accept evil you now accept their rules and if they change the rules you have no choice but to accept it.
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