Muslims deplore the killing of U.S. ambassador to Libya
Over the last few days you've seen lots of pictures of Muslims protesting about a film, burning and smashing things, and gruesome pictures of the U.S. ambassador's body in Libya. But I guarantee you won't see many pictures like those below in the mainstream media.
These are Libyans protesting at the recent violence in their country, committed by people who don't speak for them. In a country where the U.S. ambassador can be attacked and killed, you can appreciate these people are risking their lives to do this. Unfortunately we only see Muslims committing violence over and over again on main news outlets.
The brave Muslims shown below should not be forgotten, but should be supported by all those who deplore religious violence. They remind us that Libyans and Muslims are not the enemy. The "us" and "them" narrative spun out to make a good 'story' is the real enemy. I hope people don't fall for it.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations also condemned the attacks in a news conference in Washington on Wednesday. It includes a moving tribute from a Muslim who was a personal friend of Chris Stevens (second speaker).Thanks for presenting the balanced side of things, I live in Muslim country, the Muslims I know are not violent people, nor fanatics.
As I said on another thread, out of the billions of Muslims in the world, I'm certain the majority are more interested in feeding their kids and leading a happy life than trying to destroy western civilisation. Unfortunately we don't see much of those Muslims in the news.
I personally believe Islam a peaceloving religion like any other religion out there. Unfortunately all we hear about is the fanatics and extremists. Of course there's the fanatic and extremist Christians out there too, like the assh*** that made that film.
Thank you Don, for this splash of common sense! Perhaps the news in the US is even more censored than it is here, but even here we have seen, on sky news I might add, that many Muslims are disgusted by what has happened, this is not what they fought for. We have also seen the Egyptian President come out and denounce this awful killing, are people just gonna ignore that because he is a Muslim? This tragic event has not occurred because Muslims are *barbaric* but because people, of any religion, race or creed can behave like animals.
Am I the only one who thinks it's kinda strange that the guy in the first picture misspelled Prophet?
Conspiracy nuts incoming. 30 seconds till Thread gets Hijacked.Thanks. That's good to see although it doesn't surprise me.
It is funny how the vernacular in this country has changed from radical muslims to just plain muslim when these attacks take place. More of the all or nothing mentality our political reasoning has become I guess.
It is beyond unfortunate that the actions of a few zealots -- on both sides, the filmmakers and the rioters-- are misinterpreted as representative of an entire country or an entire religion.
How are you able to bring up a film as justification for murder? Do you work for the obammy administration?
I brought up the film as the work of one individual or a group of individuals.
In no way do the people who made that derogatory film represent or reflect America as a country.
Nowhere did I say, nor do I believe, that murder -- or even the riots -- are justified.
Nor does the Obama administration believe or support that. Have you been paying attention, or just rushing to condemn the president, too?
What I said, and maybe I did not write this clearly enough, is this:
It was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for the Muslims to retaliate against America the country for the stupid actions of a small group of American filmmakers.
It is also WRONG for Americans to blame all Muslims for the violent reaction of a few extremists.
But I can already see that is exactly what is happening.
Which, it appears, is exactly what the filmmakers intended.
I sure hope they're pleased with themselves.
The Muslims who lit fire to the US embassy in Libya are guilty of murder.
The American filmmakers who incited these actions are guilty of at minimum, manslaughter.What gives me the right?
The right to free speech protected by the First Amendment.
Why do I make such a claim?
Because the only possible reason to make such an offensive, hateful anti-Islam movie was to rile up and inflame Muslims.
When you stir up a hornet's nest, someone's gonna get stung.
Perhaps they did not intend for American diplomats to be the target, but they surely knew there would be retaliation.
In fact, they're talking about the movie on the news right now.
Here's the definition. You tell me it doesn't fit these assholes.
Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another human being without intent.LOL I was just being facetious - WAGGIA!
So you enjoy your free speech ?How many innocent civilians have been killed in drone attacks, would you condemn the POTUS to be a murderer/ manslaughterer? What happens when we discover that this ambassador was murdered due to retaliation from drone attacks in Libya, that the individuals guilty of the crimes had been planning this months before the movie was even known? Once again do we have a criminal in the White House?
What happens when we discover that this ambassador was murdered due to retaliation from drone attacks in Libya, that the individuals guilty of the crimes had been planning this months before the movie was even known?
It appears that you have already decided the outcome of any investigation before it has even begun. You continually ask what happened to free speech? What's happened to due process?and continually just wants to take any occasion to bash the President.
Presidents! Bush is also responsible for creating new generations of individuals with a grudge against the United States. What is deemed as a "war on terror" to one side, appears to be "acts" of terror to the other! Justice is one thing, a prolonged continuance of destruction and death is quite another. Should any people merely sit by as their countrymen are killed, would they not eventually seek the same Justice?
Who should be held responsible for Americas failed foreign policy, but its leaders? Congress is just as responsible for not reigning in this era of death!
I have no hope in any alteration of events with a Romney administration. The agenda of the elites will continue unimpeded unless humanity unifies and RESISTS! Why do we allow ourselves to be divided in so many (in the grand scheme of life) petty issues?
Think for one second, Libya does not have a stable government, fully staffed. They have managed to acquire a western affiliated Central bank though? Iran does not have one of these............YET!
Why do NATO forces stay out of conflicts, horrible atrocities, in nations that does not have an abundance of natural resources? I thought every Embassy was equipped with at the very least, a helicopter to evacuate personnel? This is indeed a disturbing time in history!
Due process was destroyed by new American homeland security legislation.
How come you felt obliged to ask me this when society has already decided the outcome before any investigation has begun? All I am doing is pointing out the fact that we do not know what motivated these attacks. They appear to be coordinated attacks that most likely was in the planning process long before this movie was revealed. The only ones guilty of wrongdoing are the monsters that committed the crimes!I agree that we do not *know* what motivated these attacks, therefore, we cannot *assume* that they were in the planning long before the movie was revealed. This is a highly emotive event, feelings are running high which means a proper investigation and review of the evidence needs to take place. Jumping to conclusions now is the worst possible course of action.
So they are a hornets nest, ready to be stirred up and sting people...to death...lol
You better watch out!
Freedom of speech for some, not all! People who are terrorists, get to murder when others express their free speech, wow, what a great thing to support, and also blame others. What did they do? Do the very thing you did here.... use their God given right..... amazing.Still making the assertion that hurt feelings is justification for murder I see.
Deliberate misquoting does not make your accustion any truer the third, tenth, or fifty-ninth time you repeat it.
When one has nothing of any substance to say, the straw man usually emerges.
Ignorance, and her right to free speech gives her the right. Blaming the film makers of manslaughter, when they are against those that practice manslaughter and other hindering of human rights, is just another evil thing we observe in this world.
I am at the point of not even feeling bad, if Americans think and act this way toward true evil in the world
They killed, on 9-11 no less, and continue to riot....
If the film makers wanted to show the violence of certain groups, it sure is ironic how the people in question, showed it themselves.
If people care to study up on the religion, and what its prophet taught and did, they would understand. People don't care about truth and freedom and rights for ALL anymore. People that take life, and hinder true human rights of others, should NOT be so defended. Anyone can find a few photos.... We are speaking about the same people dancing in the streets on 9-11, and continue to celebrate it. in the mean time, innocent people are dead, because the film makers were right about radical Islam. They can't make those people do it, but the people that engage in cowardly murder of others, SURE won't want to it to be said about them. So they do it more....amazing. More amazing, is people like MM, not blaming the murders on those that did it.
Why she has an E next to her name here, is so beyond me.... Who defends that kind of stuff?Correction, not those that practice manslaughter, but much worse, outright cowardly murder. Also, when I said I am past the point almost of feeling bad if American's think and act this way, I should have added that this country is going downhill, and its undeniable. People don't want to look at WHY this is... Reasons matter....this country WAS great...its losing its greatness. Everyone knows it, world over. Does anyone care?
In fairness, I don't know what is in the film, but if it is exposing the teachings of Islam and its followers, then I have an idea of what is in it. Are they violent or not? Have you seen the news, ever?I watched the movie (trailer, there was apparently no movie), and it had nothing to say about Islamic beliefs. It was a pathetic, amateurish, scurrilous attack on Mohammad, depicting him as a womanizer, a clown and a clueless jerk.
Yes, you are right, Mohammad was the victim here, not the many that have been killed since. A very weak religion where people have to kill for their prophet and a very backwards and twisted society that sides with Mohammed in this case.
Learn about Mohammad's history actually, I have. People can put others down, and do all the time, even their prophets, look how tough the Christians are in this case. What they can't do is pick such a lame, pathetic reason to actually go and kill innocent Americans or anyone.
I am abhorred that some don't get this.... It actually, truly scares me for America, and makes me not feel bad for the Americans that are fighting this crazy kind of thinking and mentality.
Truth is, even the terrorists aren't blaming the video anymore, it was always Obamas camp, look this up. They NEED it to be about a trailer for the movie, instead of Obamas failed foreign policy, so close to the election. The awake people of the world see it. It actually explains what we are seeing world over, as we speak.
Weak points of view and philosophies count on people to be blind and dumb to such things, and take advantage of them this way. They give out lots of handouts as well, and they nail their case shut. They hit below the belt, and demonize things that actually made sense, like what Romney said on recording that was released.
They are screaming, he lost the election, because they NEED to, as Romney is showing what is really going on. The left CAN'T have their eyes opened up to the truth, because the deceptions and lies are all they have. They are desperate. That is another point, but it all ties in. Its not about people actually caring about what they ought to be, as our country goes down in flames.Preposterous
#1 the signs of the rioters blamed the movie.
#2 Obama foreign policy had nothing to do with this.
#3 The vast majority of Economists disagree with Romney (according to a recent survey about 8 out of every 9 economists will be voting democrat).
No facts, no truths just false insinuations.
No the murders are not justifiable but that is completely separate.Thanks for your opinion.
We have already discussed the few signs like that in here, at length. Many more protestors, world over, wake up.
People say anything. Wise people look at what would actually cause such things, and at what makes logical sense, a cause and effect, based on the actual evidence.
Romney is far from perfect, but he has done more personally in his life in business, than Obama could ever think of. He is an American success, undeniable, even if you hate successful Americans that actually make jobs for people, actually create them, lol.
People can say, and do, like you, "no facts, just false insinuations..." but its only true when its true. Wake up, your country is being killed.... Or don't,. and expect things that never work in our own personal lives, to somehow work in a government. Its illogical, and people aren't being realistic. NO ONE can just make things true, no matter how much they believe in a bad idea, nor how bad they want it to be true. This is true in every one of our lives. Ask a person that has recently lost a job, house or other possessions. We are hated around the world, its so incredibly obvious. You count on the less likely of things to be true, and that is fine with me. Let us continue to watch. Conservatives and their general way of thinking, have been on the right side of this. Don't just believe everything you hear, test everything. Obviously, one side is lying, don't just be a side taker, take sides with truth and reality.
Its like denying the law of gravity...its ok to do, but its crazy and can kill you, or maim you. Our country is at stake, stop defending the bad ideas...or don't, and continue to watch. People that have been called crazy are being proven right again and again. Don't be one of the blind ones, for your own sake.
The people that were murdered had no relationship to any film or film maker so it was just irrational murder. Embassies are not overrun by a few zealots. The videos show hundreds, if not thousands of participants.
Would the same rationale apply if someone murdered random people because they saw people burning a United States flag? Would it be justified and an argument made that the people that were burning the flag were guilty of manslaughter? I bet the same liberal la la land mentality would not be offered in that argument.
Freedom of speech and freedom of expression and " freedom and rights for ALL" as you say are more important than anything. It is worth defending above all else. The reason why, is that the alternative world without these basic freedoms is worthless.Wait a minute. Take another look. Really look.
This man is a Muslim. He lives in Libya. He has taken the time to write on a piece of paper "Sorry people of America. This is not the Pehaviour of our Islam and Profit". He spells behaviour as "Pehaviour" and prophet as "profit" because English is not his language. His language is Arabic. He is trying to communicate with you as best he can, because he does not want to be represented by extremists who commit religious violence. And he's doing that in a place where extremists walk around with rocket propelled grenades.
This man, and Muslims like him, need your support. Chris Stevens knew that. That's why he was there. Teaching English in Morocco with the Peace Corps in his youth taught him to see people's humanity before their religion or culture. He wanted to help Muslims like this, and he did. So much so that a stranger felt compelled to call him a "Friend to all Libyans".
You want the truth? Here it is. Libya is on the difficult road to democracy and freedom. The extremists truly hate that fact. They will try to sew seeds of division among those who value freedom and democracy. They will try to drive a wedge between you and the Muslims in these photos. In stereotyping Muslims you only support the extremists efforts. What's more, you denigrate the memory of Chris Stevens who recognised there are Muslims who want freedom and democracy for their country. Stop dancing to the extremists tune. Let Muslims, Christians, atheists, liberals, conservatives who deplore religious violence and value freedom and democracy stand side by side. The truth is, divided we are weak. United we are stronger than the extremists can ever be. Don't peddle division.You do not get freedom by kowtowing to terrorists or making signs.
Exactly....or apologizing for American's expressing their freedom of speech in a couple of videos. Why not demand apologies for the killings of innocent Americans? This is an upside down world, everything is backwards. Its the biggest and most obvious way to know something is off. I miss a strong America, and a time when terrorists didn't get the upper hand by using their sheer....terror. They are laughing at America, when they aren't hating it.
People are so missing the point here. They can have that, but they can't have that and miss, or get out of the natural consequences that follow from very bad ideas playing out.Looks like terror has been the primary tactic of terrorists for quite some time now.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.htmlWe need to believe all we see, not just a couple of signs....All our eyes see other things, all over the net, all over the news, on TV, on Youtube.....
Nothing justifies it. Many are the wrong side of this, and upset...they should look inward to why that is.
Be against those that randomly kill people.... Be for legitimate sign makers wanting peace. Wake up to the realities of burning of flags, and ACTUALLY ending the life of innocent humans.
If you stand, for any reason, with terrorists or sympathizers of terrorists, I am against your side.
Why should we believe one guy with a sign, or two...over the ongoing years and decades, even millennia of other proofs?
When they apologize for it, condemn it, and stand up in arms AGAINST the terorrists, I will believe them. Its hard to do, for sure, because terror will take their lives also. Yet, this is how evil is conquered...by people paying the highest price, for example, our veterans... Lets not do a disservice to their hard work.By the way, thanks for the link. Any terrorist activities ought to be boldly condemned, without having to fear for one's own life.
And what do you suppose this condemnation will accomplish. And what action do you purpose should be taken?
He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.Perfect response to that. One need not even propose anything, to encourage people to stop doing what they ARE doing...
Innocent people are dying, and are ongoing. Its horrifying. Me, and others, calling the truly hateful and divisive people hateful and divisive and MURDERERS, is a good thing. If they call ME hateful or divisive, that is fine by me, and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. I am diametrically opposed to murderer supporters, and defenders, that give excuses, while more lives are lost, and they are proud of it.
I am fair. To those that condemn it, I am for them. To those that quietly support it, or join the murderers, I am against them, and those that pretend to make arguments that are super lame. Like, two little trailers BEING justification for innocent murder and rioting, on 9-11. Notice the exaggerated cheer leading going on and the missing of the points, to defend the points that weren't as good to begin with. You don't have to do that, when a good idea or thought or action stands on its own.Yes its noticeably pathetic they have to cheer lead and ignore posts. Poor arguments have to rely on tactics because they can't stand on their own. They have to bump and post photos. I could post hundreds of photos showing a completely different version of what is really happening.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … tones.htmltalk about bumping. .. and while we are at it lets call the kettle black why dont we?
duh! who bumps themselves?You began the bumping in attempt to hijack the thread. Keep on the discussion and less cheerleading and intentionally burying posts with your bumps please. Thanks
ah and PhoenixV now knows why I bumped this thread.
FYI - I did not bump it other than to showcase some smarts. You obviously cant see beyond your anger and hatred and blame and instead of listening to someone that has something incredibly wise and smart to say you go on the attack.
Sad to say I did not expect much more from what I see from your posts.
When a person points a finger at someone else, they should remember that 3 of his fingers are pointing at himself.He was right, I was thinking it also. I didn't think you were bumping to showcase some smarts, so I agree with you there however. What I find odd, is that you label them as angry and hateful. Can you point out exactly what was said that was angry and hateful, or are you just saying stuff again, like others are posting wise and smart things, without pointing out what they are either, or why they are wise or smart. As I have pointed out, I don't think its really particularly a slam dunk to find photos that support your view....we can all do that, and the photos that can be found to show the opposite points of Dons, are MUCH more numerous. You know this already. So please, don't call others hateful and angry, unless you also point out how. Like I did with Don... he was very wrong about what I said, but he knew that already, saying I implied or said it was all Muslims that did what the killers on 9-11 did this year, and in the past. Hopefully, you will ask him to stop that kind of behavior, if you are a fair minded individual, and care about hatefulness, and hope for more peace in the future.
If you dislike what someone is saying, address the points themselves, show how a person is wrong, its much more satisfying, and helps them to learn something if they are in the wrong. That is what I hope you and all here would do with me if needed. The tactics are just silly and not conducive to moving forward.Maybe if you made some point in this last diatribe of yours there would be something to say. You seem to demand that someone say something smart on your additions. And all I have been asking you is to read and digest any, some, even one line of the sense that Don W has brought here. I am not his cheerleader but when I read something that makes sense and is balanced and shows some insight into though, you are damn right I am going to hope another sees the light.
Turn it on a little. some light just might shine.Wavegirl, I have been responding. To be clear on one thing first...you, saying someone is smart or wise, and deserves ovations, etc lol, doesn't mean they deserve them, ACTUALLY. NOR, does the opposite stand, where you say above, that I make no points, etc. ONLY actually making good points does that, and showing it or pointing it out. I don't demand anything, but reasonable discourse in a place where that is what it is supposed to be all about. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt however, since you seem to miss so much, and I will let you have the ball completely in your court, and you can direct what happens next here, esp if you are right. Please show me an excellent and wise point that Don has made that disagreed with, that you want me to shed some light on, that I have not thus far. Based on what you say above, this should be more than easy, as since I came in here you have been going on and on about his posts.
Also, my words are my own, but I do make good points..... What you called a diatribe, and not copied from a website and reposted as my own.
Just one point, that you think I missed or disagree with, and I will respond, to answer your reply here. What made the most sense to you, in a point you can make here, that is balanced as you say. Show me exactly where I missed the light, that you say, "you are damn right I am going to hope another sees the light. Turn it on a little. some light just might shine."
This will help us get to the actual points, and away from the junk, thanks! I have been asking this all along, but I think you and Don and others missed it.
You make a great case, but miss the points entirely and where someone like me stands on these current events. You want to make it look like I am peddling division? Here is where I stand actually, since you missed it in my posts.
I think its a right, to make a couple of videos, to speak our minds. Its NOT right a right, to take the lives of innocent people, on 9-11 no less. This whole thing isn't about a few Muslims holding peaceful photos. Yet you try to act like it is. I have studied this religion and its more extreme and less extreme followers.
They hate America, they hate our policy and especially our current weakness. Libya knew what America was like when it was strong, when Reagan hit back, and they went quiet... Now we have an apologizing president, and IF you are not for division, then you would have read my posts a bit more clearly, and understand what we are really dealing with.
Did the two little videos offend you so much, and why are you not more offended by the killing of innocents? THIS, is what is creating division, and a true missing of the points at hand.
Be against me and my ideas, but I am for life, and liberty for all. Make a more fair point, and maybe it will have some weight. Don't defend the wrong side of this super obvious issue. You are for rights for all, including Americans and innocents, even on, especially on 9-11, or you are not. Don't recreate scenarios...I am speaking of current events, and want Libyans and all people to have the best life possible. Dressing up arguments like this won't work, sorry.Exactly they HATE AMERICA. But they want to use a red herring of a couple of religious extremists. That way they can blame religion, install a few banks and call it democracy all the while Americans give up some freedom. That is the truth more than likely.
Nope. Take a deep breath. Look again. Look closely.
I know it's difficult for you to take in, but this Muslim is apologizing to you for something he didn't do, because he wants you to know he doesn't support the people who commit violence. You and the man in this photo both agree. You are the same. You both deplore the violence committed by extremists. He doesn't hate you. He doesn't hate America, and he's risking his life holding up a sign to tell you that.
Take it in.
No it's not. And you, I and the Muslim in this photo all agree on that. So even though I don't know this man, and I don't know you, we have that in common. It's that common value that unifies us. That unity that can strengthen us. That strength that can defeat the extremists. But it all starts with recognising that common value and supporting each other in it.
Yes President Reagan bombed Libya in 1986. Two years later in 1988 they retaliated by blowing up Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie. 243 people died, 173 of them Americans. That's not really going 'quiet'. The bombing of Libya in 1986 simply fuelled more anti-Western feeling and created the next generation of extremists. Perhaps even some of those responsible for the recent violence. I wouldn't call that a success at all. I'd call it a tragic, vicious cycle.
Great. Then join me in commending the actions of the brave Muslims in the photos protesting against violence at great personal risk. So far I've only heard you talk about "them" as if all Muslims are the same. If you do support Muslims who are against violence, show that support.
Clear your mind for a minute. The truth is, you and I can't end extremism in the Middle East. The United States can't end it, and neither can Europe. Only the people in the Middle East can end extremism in the Middle East. What you and I can do, is support them as much as possible in that goal. That's what Ambassador Stevens did. He was helping things to change from the inside out. I think you are genuinely upset and angered by these events, which is understandable. What you also need to understand is that believing Muslims are the enemy will not help change anything. The majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet want to live their lives in peace (if they didn't we'd really be in trouble) so let's help that majority deal with the minority that don't.If the majority of 1.6 billion is peaceful I would think they could actually stop the few that are not.
You keep changing your story.
One minute they are mostly peaceful, the next minute even painting a sign puts them in grave danger.
I do not think that painting a sign should be cheered while people are being murdered randomly.Again I ask you to look closer.
This man is not part of one homogenous mass that thinks, feels, and acts exactly the same. Muslims are individuals, like you and I. Some care about politics, some don't. Some care about religion, some don't. Some want to get involved, some don't. Like any other group of human beings, Muslims are diverse in their interests, motives, desires, and needs.
Most people in the world can't dedicate their lives to overcoming world problems. If only we could. Most people are busy trying to feed their kids and just getting on. Muslims are no different. 5.9 billion people in the world have not stopped 1.1 billion people from starving. But that doesn't mean the majority of people in the world want world hunger. Likewise the fact that the majority of Muslims have not ended extremist violence, doesn't mean the majority of Muslims want extremist violence.
If your argument is that not enough Muslims around the world are speaking out against extremism, then surely you would want to support Muslims that do, and encourage more to do the same. The people in these photos agree with you. They want an end to extremist violence. I've seen your messages of condemnation for the Muslims who committed these crimes, where is your message of support and encouragement for the Muslims who stand with you against them?
The the fact that moderate Muslims can be endangered by extremists, doesn't change the fact that the majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world just want to get on with their lives. Division and hatred are the currency of extremism. By peddling both you are supporting extremists.So it would surprise you if 84% of Egyptians favor a death penalty for anyone that leaves the muslim religion? Would you characterize 84% a fringe group or a minority or just a couple of extremists? It would surprise you if the 3 out 4 of 6th largest country in the world-pakistan with a 90+ % adherence to the muslim faith wants a death penalty to anyone that leaves that religion?
I think your photos are fake btw and one man holding a photograph, that he probably cant even read does not negate something called "reality".The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind'...' According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery or the eating of forbidden foods or drinking of alcoholic beverages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Well that does not sound too peaceful to me. Does that sound peaceful to anyone?
Are all the polls taken and Wikipedia articles and live cams, news and videos all just lying? Are they being divisive and hateful or just showing the truth of the matter? It is being claimed that these are all just a few extremists? That does not line up with reality.Bumping your own post may not be against TOS, but it's pretty lame.
Maybe you should take that up with wavegirl? I am trying to discuss this despite the cheerleading , bumping and BS.
But you bumped your own post
?
Now you're criticizing others for bumping other people's posts?
Man. That is messed UP.
BTW, be careful who you accuse of "cheerleading" on this issue.
Are you aware Wavegirl is a New Yorker?
Are you aware she lost her first cousin in 9/11?
Yet, despite this up close and very personal experience, she is not a hater.
Maybe we could all learn something from her.
Just a thought.yet she wrote this?
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/103354#post2199196
But apparently she gets her material from here?
http://www.theatheistconservative.com/She was referencing a specific barbaric act by a specific group of barbarians.
Not extrapolating out like others here are intent on doing, to millions of non-barbarian people around the world.
I cannot imagine Wavegirl getting her information from a source called "theatheistconservative.com" but that's for her to confirm or deny, not me.
She's more than capable of standing up for herself.
Not that she needs to.
Then again, you're basically calling her a sympathizer for agreeing with the OP.
So who can say what Wavegirl will do with that accusation.
Mayb she will do with it what it deserves.
Ignore it.And she wrote this ? But anyone else that questions or discusses what is going on is a hater, and all the things you have said?
Wavegirl wrote
so you would rather close your eyes and pretend it didnt happen? It did and people need to see what barbarians there are in the world. I am sorry you found it offensive, so did I but it is what it is and evil like this needs to stop.thank you MM for having the faith in my words.I will say no more except everything that Don W has said has been smart and wise. No blame game here, he is coming from a place of understanding and how it is possible that things are not quite far apart with people, not the fanatical radicals but the people who live and want to live in peace.These people came to the streets with signs, They knew our ambassador and from what I have heard they loved him. They want to grow and I would hope and imagine they want to grow to a better place. Dont we all?
It only takes a few to make it bloody and ugly but these are not the people DonW has been talking about. But it doesnt matter some dont want to open their minds and receive, And so peace on earth is sure going to take a lot longer then it might if more people came together in understanding!In the future, as opportunities arise for other US Ambassadors to come under attack to be killed, I hope the Muslims you speak up go up against their radical brothers to take them out. If they want peace, they surely would want to protect the peaceful American Ambassadors, don't you agree?
Sure its not so easy, but publicly condemning the actions would be a great place to start, for more peace for all the people that want peace in this world! If you look throughout history, sacrifices need to be made to afford more peace for all, and our military knows it all too well.
I think its a good idea, when you make a good point, that refutes others, and keeps on getting ignored. I am all for people trying to get out good or better ideas. Or at least not denying them.
If we're going to do statistics, here's some that reveal an alternative narrative.
2008
As part of a research project (now published as a book), Gallup conducted tens of thousands of interviews with people in more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries. This is what they found:
"When asked to describe their dreams for the future, Muslims don't mention fighting in a jihad, but rather getting a better job."
"Muslims and Americans are equally likely to reject attacks on civilians as morally unjustified."
"Those who condone acts of terrorism are a minority and are no more likely to be religious than the rest of the population."
"What Muslims around the world say they most admire about the West is its technology and its democracy -- the same two top responses given by Americans when asked the same question."
"What Muslims around the world say they least admire about the West is its perceived moral decay and breakdown of traditional values -- the same responses given by Americans when posed the same question."
"The majority of those surveyed want religious leaders to have no direct role in crafting a constitution, yet favor religious law as a source of legislation."
(Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed, 2008)
2009
Another Gallup survey revealed that 53% of Americans say they have unfavorable opinions of the Islamic faith. While 63% of Americans say they have very little or no knowledge at all of the Islamic faith. That tells us that unfavourable opinion of Muslims in the U.S. is mostly based on ignorance. Your comments seem to bear that out.
That study also indicates that "not knowing a Muslim increases the likelihood of feeling extreme prejudice toward followers of Islam".
(Religious Perceptions in America, 2009)
2011
Statistical analysis indicated that "In the U.S., about one-half of nationally representative samples of Mormons, Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, and Jews agree that in general, most Americans are prejudiced toward Muslim Americans."
"Fifty percent of those who report a great deal of prejudice toward Muslims say they are Republicans, compared with 17% of those who identify as Democrats and 7% as independents"
(Understanding Anti-Muslim Sentiment in the West, 2011)
2012
94% of Libyans surveyed by Gallup (before the attacks) agreed that local militias should be required to hand in their weapons to authorities immediately.
"More than 60% consider al-Qaeda and former Gadhafi regime members a serious threat to the country's future."
Analysis goes on to say: "Western support for Libyan institutions at this stage is integral for Libya's and the region's stability and is now a key issue among Western security interests."
As for the photos. The reason they have you frothing at the mouth is because they disrupt the "us" and "them" narrative you are comfortable with. There is no way to account for them without radically changing your world view. You would rather suggest they aren't real, than even conceive of the possibility that a Muslim might simply want to live in peace.
Whatever these kids are, they aren't terrorists.
They are probably more interested in Facebook and Twitter. What a golden opportunity the internet gives us to pull them out of the clutches of extremists, simply by exposure to the wider world. You should be supporting them, not dismissing them.
In your rush to find something to reinforce your own narrative, you ignore all the above information which is freely available. Will you dismiss that as false too? Those studies and surveys show Muslims have similar values to you and I. Interest in democracy, technology, concern about jobs and the economy. The studies also show the high level of prejudice against Muslims in America is partly based on ignorance. Your comments do nothing but reinforce that.I do not have to rush to reinforce a narrative all I have to do is watch it all go down. This is not the first time nor will it be the last. There is no justification for it. Personally I haven't really discussed any of this but I have witnessed this stuff for 40 years. I won't be quiet anymore and will tell everyone the real danger that it is. Its the only right thing to do. I think people that ignore it or try to minimize it are in fact sympathizing with it.
See, the reality is, if you don't condemn it for what it is, no matter WHAT is the driving force behind the killings of innocents and riotting (which people don't want to think about...), then you are indeed not taking the side of justice, or morality.
This has been part of my point....people can't handle the reality of their own views sometimes, and/or don't understand the driving force behind why they are defending what they do. Yes, some would absolutely say that if you defend something for poor reasons, then you ARE sympathizing with it, or the ideas. This isn't an opinions, words mean something, and have definitions. Again, notice the quick to point out supposed error and hatefulness on the parts of the people defending against the killing of innocents, trying to find something, ANYthing against them. Why is that, what is driving that very odd behavior.
We have a president that apologizes for things that should have the opposite response given to it. I totally blame not only the current administration and those that voted for it, but also ALL American's for letting this country continue down this path, if they continue to allow it to go this way. Its simple....its cause and effect.
Example? Financial..we know what causes our own personal bankruptcy in our personal lives, but we act like the government or America is immune. We are letting it go down the toilet, because we don't want the President to be wrong? The whole world sees it, and that haters and US flag burners of the world, LOVE the path we are on. Those here that turn a blind, and denying eye, and then cast blame and distortions, ARE part to blame. You can't have ideas that don't work, work out for you, nor the country. Its denial and inability to cope with the reality of our country. So what do people in the forums do here, and around the world? GO after those that have made good decisions often, that would make better choices, and try to demonize them, and discredit them by lying and distorting truths, and using bad arguments and playing nasty. This is all you have, when you are defending poor ideas, or a bad philosophy.
You CAN'T make the world bend its reality, to poor ideas and come out on top, ever, period.
Please accept this bump as my humble gift to you.
Thanks I am wanting to give the OP a reasonable chance to see this and respond, Thank you,
I hope he responds as well. You make many great points, and I am observing that people hope to ignore such points, and they have done it with me as well.
This is why I say, some struggle with the reality of some things. Signs, true or not, don't make a case ever, OVER the overarching and obvious evidences. Its a game to play like they would or could. In what world?
These points are ones I hope to see responded to fairly, by Don, Might Mom and Wavegirl..... , at least. Because these points shed light on the true reality of what we are dealing with. If they ignore this, then what I have been saying is exactly spot on. An inability to want reality, and a denial of it, and hoping more for our personal wants to somehow be truer than what is.
No one in their right mind, would ever say that 84% of a population is a fringe, or small group of people, extreme whackos or anything like that. No way. Again, the bigger questions, and the elephant in the room is why do people act in such ways, and I don't mean the terrorists here, but the people's reaction to them, and what is one of many driving forces of it.
They haven't answered many of the questions posed to them, and I think this is in part because to do so, would cause one to admit that things aren't really quite as rosy as they would hope or think. Our wants and desires NEVER have dictated what reality turns out to be, especially with things outside of our control. What one can do, is minimize damage, accept reality, and try to prevent further loss of life in this case, and promote TRULY peaceful things. Posting pics of signs isn't helpful in that, and some of the frustration I sense here, is that some might be wondering at their non magical effect on turning reality on its face. No one denies a Muslim his god given right to freedoms, except guess who if anyone does? They do this to themselves. This is not news.... Again, why the non acceptance? THIS is the bigger and more concerning question.
Its not realistic, to say, "We are so sorry, that an American made a video, and will you please play nice now in the future?" Its mad to do so... and its not an opinion...we see more rioting, more rage. Can i make this true? No, but I can point it out here, to those that seem to keep on not being able to accept it. They seem to need to, and I can only guess why the strong need to defend. To be clear, I am NOT against peaceable Muslims. Why would I be? I just want to be left alone.... Our fellow American's are not safe, when they go into rages at unforeseen times, and at the worst times even, on 9-11 no less. These are NOT the people holding the signs. NO one said it was.
**As for fake photos... I don't know, I can't claim to know for sure. But here are some things to take from the photos...., and keep in mind this question as you consider the points, what are the chances all these things would fall perfectly in place to make it likely enough to happen?
*These Muslims in the streets, having the supplies needed like poster boards and markers or paint, when almost any one of us would have to stop by the local Walgreens or Walmart to get that stuff. When I do need it, for a childs project, I have to go buy that stuff, my markers have half run out, or we make mistakes, and need more things, etc.
*A photographer, that happens to be in the right place at the right time, many times over.
*People using the same font or style of penmanship, which is remarkably nice, and colors as the guys around them
*All this happening so soon right after these events
*Knowing how to read and write English and good penmanship, while also not knowing how to spell key words like prophet, but misspell it so its phonetically correct at least.
*The looks on these people's faces often... like they are confused or worried, wondering what the signs say.....
*Now, its possible all this and maybe more did just happen to be the case, and all on new butcher paper or poster boards, as opposed to cardboard ripped off the side of a box, etc... We all know we have to get our supplies together to make even a garage sale or lemonade stand sign (no longer legal in parts of the US, scary world....) Yet we believe without a doubt, that these photos taken in these war torn countries have situations set up just so.....
What is more logical to conclude? I can see why you say what you do there, when you take everything into consideration. Do they stand up like this when their fellow brothers are killing on 9-11, and feel safe to do so? Seems to me, they have more to fear there, than from USA who sits idly by, and apologizes and teaches people against good how to overlook the greatest points of all. Its sick.
Your words are wise and smart. It is sad that there are not more that can see the bigger picture as you do. Unfortunately these words fall dead on most, but I hear you loud and clear and could not agree more with all you say.
I am against the Muslims that ACT like they are our enemies. I think that you are a little bit confused in my point... You are sugar coating what the reality is. Why that is, I am not sure. Don't make this about people like me not wanting to be for peacable Muslims everywhere.
I am for the few that MIGHT ACTUALLY make a sign really promoting peace....
Stop trying to make enemies out of people like me, that stand up for what is right, and truly condemn what is wrong. Most people that are Islamic sympathizers have their reasons, but if you haven't truly studied the actual texts, then you may never know where the ones that do their crimes get their directions from. I think this is about a deeper good and evil. People trying to minimize the true evil we see and continue to, while condemning and truly hating the freedom loving countries like America, are not on the side of good. If you haven't noticed in history, terror wins...they think they won here again, on 9-11. More innocent American lives lost, at the hands of cowardly people that TRULY hate Americans. That is a rage that is unexcusable and undeniably and obviously real.
Yes, I am upset that it is blamed on some lame videos.... The reason is deeper. Hatred that they would rather die for.. Perhaps you could consider that the best way to help these countries out, if that is your only goal for guys that make signs, is to help keep freedom at home first.
In the mean time, we are losing our freedoms here daily, and people turn a blind eye and deaf ear to keep their handouts. It ALL is completely UNAmerican. Also, meanwhile, why people like you that pretend to not get my point, and want to bicker about it, they LAUGH and get away with more. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think I am not for peace and want it for all. I do... This is frustrating having to defend what I know is right from the top. Good grief.One more thing... It is a sheer belief, what that one man has in his own sign. If you READ what their prophet wrote, and how he lived, and how he taught his followers to be, you would also know that sign is wrong. Its an opinion he shares. Islam.... the world actually needs to learn about it, and stop getting mad when people share it. I am very serious also, when I say this. Its long past due. You can't reason with terror..... Islam has specific commands and they are against all infidels. Perhaps that is why those that don't kill, still dance sometimes when others do, or why when family's lose their sons or daughters to suicide missions, they are still very proud, through the tears, and say so. They are "peaceful" right? Do you honestly not see the points I am making?
Denial is deadly in this case. My friend, was in NY at the rubble a year after 9-11. Two very peaceable Muslim women were taking their photos with huge smiles in front of the rubble, for their family. They were incredibly proud. They didn't fly a plane. Would you label them as peaceful? They just want freedom in America too, or like American's have likely....
Key in on the deeper points here, that is what I am doing. This isn't tit for tat, eye for an eye. Libya DID stay relatively quiet after certain actions, and we DO see a cause and effect now. You don't have to believe me, and I honestly do not care. Facts are facts however, and they play out ongoing, long after I am gone to point it out.I think the signs are faked. They all look penned by the same writer, who cant spell one minute but has amazing cursive penmanship the next. I have seen other photo op fake posters where Sudanese children were holding up signs in English but were made to look like they were "hand made" lol.
It would be spectacularly naive AND AN INSULT to buy an apology (even if they were legitimate signs ) at this point anyway.
I am afraid that you missed every point made. What is frustrating is reading what you think you are defending. Not trying to mock you but your words really have not made much sense. I get the feeling you are not even reading what DonW is saying. Maybe take a minute and then come back and see what he is saying. Its basic and spot on, it might take some of your confusion and make some sense into it.
Wavegirl, thank you for that, but I am not naive enough to make this just about a couple of photos Don found. No one should be. He is harping on the photos. He hasn't made good points about what he is disagreeing with me on. He just wants me to be wrong, and yet knows I am not. What exactly is he disagreeing with me on?
Don can post photos, that is fine. I have said already (which he showed he didn't see, saying I haven't shown support for them...), that I think its great if there are some that would ever make such a photo and happen to get in a photo for them like this. IF they are for freedom for all, then good for them. Let it be shown on the record, I applaud that!
Did you have a particular point you wanted to make, against a particular point I have made? I would so welcome it. I would welcome it from Don as well. I do get the feeling you are not for my points, but its hard to tell why exactly.
I am for freedom, not killing people, and not being a terrorist in any way, NOR supporting terrorists. What do you have a problem with me, exactly?
I totally support for example, any President that would publicly condemn the actions of those people, and any Muslim that outright feels bold enough to condemn their fellow Islamic terrorist countrymen. Good for them, they get my applause. Truly curious what you disagree with me on still. Thanks.No one is saying you are wrong in your condemnation of these attacks. The attacks are unjustifiable. We are in complete agreement on that.
Where we differ is that I don't see Muslims as a single-minded mass of people with the same ideas, attitudes and opinions, whereas you do. In reference to Muslims you have said:
"They killed, on 9-11 no less, and continue to riot.... "
This man didn't, and he isn't rioting.
"Are they violent or not? Have you seen the news, ever?"
These women aren't being violent. They are saying violence doesn't represent them.
"They hate America, they hate our policy and especially our current weakness."
These kids don't.
"If the film makers wanted to show the violence of certain groups, it sure is ironic how the people in question, showed it themselves."
This group hasn't. The sign says "R.I.P Christ Stevens. We will bring these criminals to justice"
When you say "they" you mean Muslims, but these people are all Muslims. So who are "they"? There's no point saying you applaud Muslims who are for freedom, but then talk about Islam, Muslims and extremism as if they are all the same thing. That's what I disagree with you on. Muslims are not a single, identical mass of people. There are a multitude of different sects in Islam just like the denominations in Christianity. Each with its own customs, traditions and beliefs. Muslims who commit violence are no more representative of all Muslims, than the Klu Klux Klan are representative of all Christians.
I also disagree with the fact you seem to think your understanding of Islam is better than the people who hold Islamic beliefs:
"If you READ what their prophet wrote, and how he lived, and how he taught his followers to be, you would also know that sign is wrong."
Really? How can you have the gall to suggest your interpretation of Islam is better than this Muslim living in a Muslim country? It is his religion. On what basis can you tell him what his beliefs are?
I also disagree with you about the the bombing of Libya in 1986. You suggest it resulted in a time of 'quiet'. In fact there was no change in terrorist acts sponsored by Gaddafi in 1986. After the bombing Leigh Douglas, Philip Padfield, and Peter Kilburn who were being held hostage in Lebanon were all shot dead. British hostage Alec Collett was hanged and British journalist John McCarthy was taken hostage. Pan Am Flight 73 was hijacked, Pan Am Flight 103 was destroyed with no survivors and UTA Flight 772 was destroyed with no survivors. It wasn't a period of 'quiet' at all. Gaddafi continued his murderous sponsorship of terrorism unabated. The bombing resulted in no personal injury to him, but 60 people including an 8 year old girl were killed as 'collateral damage'. If you consider that a successful operation, then the definition of 'successful operation' is also something we disagree on.Bump bump this to the top so that others maybe will read this before spewing their thoughts.
You are in grave error, and you cannot twist my words. When I speak of killings in the past, I am speaking of THOSE THAT KILLED. Please, do not make this mistake again.
If you have not noticed that I have defended the peaceable Muslims in my posts, then you are truly in denial and cherry picking. I think you are perhaps upset that everyone isn't buying all your photos you happened to find.
I will report you to Hubpages if you take my words out of context again, and try to make me like I am causing trouble here. You are playing unfair in debate, and also haven't asked questions posed to you to back your side, nor has your cheerleader friend. That is fine, but you don't get to do this, and act like you have a good argument.
What is strangely odd..... is that you want me to be so wrong.. about what exactly? You were wrong in your post there. Please do not say that I was saying ALL Muslims did that. IF I meant it that way, then I would have said that. Anyone can cut and paste and find pictures to make their case. If any one of us wanted, we could find 100 more photos showing their rage and violence. I think this might be lost on you. I don't do it, because I trust we already know it, and see it daily. I don't use easy to find photos to make my case. I use good arguments, reason, logic, and observation of reality. Please do the same in the future.It's not about anyone being 'wrong'. It's about you entirely missing the point of the thread. The thread is about countering misrepresentations by telling the other side of the story and supporting Muslims who say extremists don't speak for them. No more, no less.
In your response, you went off on a tangent about freedom of speech and reinforced the misrepresentations yourself. You dismissed the photos, and implied that Muslims celebrating on 9/11 are more representative of Muslims in the photos. You said: "Anyone can find a few photos.... We are speaking about the same people dancing in the streets on 9-11, and continue to celebrate it. in the mean time, innocent people are dead, because the film makers were right about radical Islam." I haven't posted the whole post to save space, but it's at the top of page 2, so see for yourself. Nowhere in that post did you suggest Muslims could be peaceful and nowhere in that post did you offer any support for such Muslims.
You then continued missing the point in your comments to me: "I think its a right, to make a couple of videos, to speak our minds. Its NOT right a right, to take the lives of innocent people, on 9-11 no less. This whole thing isn't about a few Muslims holding peaceful photos. Yet you try to act like it is. I have studied this religion and its more extreme and less extreme followers."
The Muslims holding 'peaceful photos' is the whole point of the thread. It's not a defence of religion, religious violence, or Islam which you seem to think it is. It's about balancing out the avalanche of negative images of Muslims spewed by the mainstream media and those with their own agenda.
Eventually, near the bottom of page 2 you seemed to get the point; "To the men and women that honestly make a sign, and want peace, I am for them." Well that's the point I was making all along. I am for them too. I wish there were more like them. And I wish they had gotten as much coverage as the extremists did, because then people may realise not all Muslims are extremists. That's it. Thats the entire point of the thread in a nutshell. It's illuminating that others in this thread can't bring themselves to support Muslims, even when those Muslims are agreeing with them! They simply can't bring themselves to acknowledge or support someone who is a Muslim. I'm glad you offer your support to Muslims who want peace. I feel very sad for those who can't do the same.Don, I was always speaking of the larger problem, and current events at hand, yes. I also addressed the point of your thread, as you say below, at bottom of page two (if not before, which is a ways back at the point you posted this last post...)
I don't find such proof to be found only in some rare photos, and as other posters have pointed out, we rely on more than that, what we see daily. I pointed out how even the non extreme Muslims have been known to quietly support, and not condemn their terrorists brothers. You deny this happens it seems, though one has to wonder how you could at least on 9-11. I shared examples since then as well, and we all see it.
You and I have a differing of opinion. I don't believe photos actually make your point, IF you mean that we should support Islam and is adherents as a religion. It is very dangerous, even to themselves, as proof was given to support that as well, even if they want to peaceably leave, they cannot. It hurts their own countries. I didn't see you address this point, and perhaps that is because it would counter the point you keep trying to push. From what I have seen in this thread, no one has actually disagreed with you that the photos, if real, are showing a good thing, even if super rare. Good for them! I say it again!
In your response, you went off on a tangent about freedom of speech and reinforced the misrepresentations yourself.
"Tangents" of freedom of speech, do apply here. If it bothered you that I wasn't constantly keying in on your OP only, then my apologies, but it does all apply. You say, "You dismissed the photos, and implied that Muslims celebrating on 9/11 are more representative of Muslims in the photos."
No, I did not. Now I have asked you before, and I will ask you again, to stop twisting my words and taking them out of context. Or, when you say such bold things, prove it with a copy paste in context. Again, if you have a question, like, "Do you think those celebrating on 9-11, included those in these photos?" Then I could have answered no, but you didn't ask because I wouldn't say that because I can't know that. You don't seem fair in this regard, and I notice you build your case on things that have not actually been said. Don't do that please, and I will continue to not do that to you.
You said: "Anyone can find a few photos.... We are speaking about the same people dancing in the streets on 9-11, and continue to celebrate it. in the mean time, innocent people are dead, because the film makers were right about radical Islam." I haven't posted the whole post to save space, but it's at the top of page 2, so see for yourself. Nowhere in that post did you suggest Muslims could be peaceful and nowhere in that post did you offer any support for such Muslims."
Here you don't make sense, as you imply that if I don't continually post that Muslims can be peaceful, while talking about those that practice terror, then I am not showing support for the more peaceful Muslims. I find this dishonest, and a tactic. Again, it was women and children, very peaceful looking Muslims that were dancing in the streets on 9-11, and that were posing with very supportive gestures in front of the rubble soon after. You can't key in on not getting the points as they are posed, and then make a supposed case. It doesn't work. Its also true, that in the mean time, innocent American's are dead, and you don't seem to care much about them! Or their families! You care MORE about how all Muslims look, even if they subscribe to Islam, and I find that amazing.
I am fully aware of your point with your photos. You add great weight to them, and seem frustrated when others don't come away with the same conclusion as you, even when I have said that I have no problem with those Muslims, as have others. Many here questioned them, but no one said those men holding signs were the murderers. What more do you want from me, than I have given? I do think you are trying to defend the group and their religion as a whole, based on your content in this thread alone. You want them to all be viewed a particular way, and I get that. I find the mainstream media to take it easy on them, and what they do share seems very atrocious, because it is. We can't even post the countering photos here, they are against TOS.
Bottom line unless they condemn the murders, and condemn radical Islam, instead of defending it and their prophet, and defend the next US Ambassador and other peaceful US citizens, then I will always question them. Here is why and I have said it before. They know its not popular to talk about the parts of Islam that the terrorists use for their jihad, the words of their own prophet. That I have studied it makes me more knowledgeable about it, and yes, they do not want the world to know that terrorist actions are supported, as they have been through the centuries, by Islam and its prophet. If you were not aware of this, you needed to learn it here if not elsewhere. I don't claim to know whats in every heart of every Muslim, but if they support Islam, and don't denounce the terror, I actually have a good idea, and its supported by images we see all the time, that I don't create of make up.
Murdering more innocent American's on 9-11, OUGHT to get a ton of coverage, and you want more coverage for the peaceful ones.... I see an imbalance here, that isn't fully logical, while also trying to account of all the other news. Perhaps they didn't find the sources legit or something. Send your photos to news stations, tell them where you got them, who took them and where exactly. News anchors would like to interview these guys I bet, if they could!
You are a defender of Muslims not all being extremists, when people already know of Muslims that aren't extreme. You seem to be on a campaign to change the view of them, and their religion. Their religion has very very tough teachings, and it makes their lives hell over there, honestly. I know you can't deny this. I disagree, that they should not have gotten as much coverage as the extremists did, because that doesn't even make sense. Anyone that watches the news, knows its full of the extreme news, and not the peace news. Its not that they are all against peaceful people. Your concern need not be one I think, as everyone I know, already KNOWS not all Muslims are extremists, and you actually say that you are concerned that people may not realize that. Rest your soul....
You say that is the entire point of the thread...something that to me already wasn't in question. You say its illuminating that others in this thread can't bring themselves to support Muslims when they agree with them. Who did that actually?
Though you are or were frustrated, hopefully you aren't now. Its enraging what some did on 9-11, and that doesn't mean we are painting them all that way. That would be immoral to do. There is just more going on as well, the deeper issues and the things we don't see. I think we understand each other better now though.The rebuttal is that you are claiming or suggesting that these are just extremists and aren't representative of a large portion eg you are certain the majority are more interested in being happy.. "than trying to destroy western civilisation". Then others attest that these are just a few zealots. Then you say that anyone that differs in opinion have a "us vs them mentality" or are hateful or divisive.
Sir, there are thousands of people in roaming mobs across many countries chanting "death to america " for decades, so even if we gave you your strawman argument of that if anyone disagrees with your portrayal- it would be ludicrous. It would be irresponsible to give benefit of a doubt any longer.
When asked about the certain aspects and core belief systems and how they are certainly a factor you completely ignore it. You just want to paint a picture by your own admission.Thousands. Do you know how small that is in relation to billions. Here is a diagram to help put it into perspective.
Even if we increased that ten thousand to a hundred thousand, it would still need magnifying on the diagram before you could even see it.
Now compare that to the proportion of media coverage devoted to extremism. One study showed that 91% of all news coverage about Muslims was related to 'extremists', 'extremism' or 'terrorism'. In other words 91% of what you see in the news about Muslims is focused on the tiny dot you can barely see on the diagram.
Why is that important? Because the news and media is the only exposure many Americans have to Muslim countries and Muslim culture, unlike say Christians and Christian culture.
The reason this happens is because violence and death (particularly of U.S. citizens) simply make 'better' news stories, i.e. they sell more papers, and create higher viewing figures. In the world of Corporate media more eyeballs equals more money. So if a tiny fraction of a particular group (say Muslims) are very violent, then those are the Muslims we'll see most of on our screens and in our papers. That's not to say the events reported are not happening. It just means because of how the news works, we only get a slanted view.
It's like looking at an ant through a magnifying glass, and being afraid of the monster that you see. That's what happens when people only see Muslims through the magnifying glass of the news media. Having Muslims friends, or personal ties with Muslims cancels that effect somewhat because then you have another frame of reference. But if the only frame of reference is the news, then you'll only get that slanted view. Mix that with information online from those who distort to further their own agenda, and you end up with a mixture of ignorance, anger and fear. I recognise all three in your comments. All I can suggest is that you learn more about the types of Muslims in the opening photos, stay calm and try to put things into perspective.The thing is that I do not buy your propaganda any more than I would buy supposed MSM propaganda. You allege there are misrepresentations and then admit that you want to counter those misrepresentations.
A person in this forum said - we love our Prophet beyond measure and will not tolerate his disrespect in the name of freedom of speech.
That is a fundamental flaw in a culture or a religion that espouses that in a civilized world. No one dictates basic human rights. Unless you are claiming that these are just a minority and extremists?I don't think the slanted view of Muslims in the mainstream media is propaganda. That implies intent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I think it's just the way Corporate media works.
Those corporations are operated to produce profit. The more eyes and ears they attract, the more advertising revenue they generate, the more profit they make. Violence attracts more viewers and readers. As a minority of Muslims are very violent, they receive a disproportionate amount of media attention compared to other Muslims. Combine that with the fact many Americans have little exposure to Muslims and Muslim culture outside of mainstream media, and you end up with a view of Muslims that is skewed towards violence and death, giving a false perception.
It depends on what the person meant by 'not tolerate'. Martin Luther King would 'not tolerate' segregation, but he didn't kill anyone. That's the problem with having a skewed view. It can influence your interpretation of things. But okay let's assume the person meant they would resort to violence. Again it's about perspective. Think of it this way: for every Muslim that shares the above view, you can find two that don't (if you really want to).Then you can understand why no one can afford to give the benefit of a doubt. Because giving it perspective will just cost more innocent lives. I think the core issue here is that through what is being taught, what seems to be acceptable to a culture and what is being prescribed by laws, which encompasses quite a bit of daily life and resulting behavior, is that it is acceptable to commit violence on people that dissent from their personal beliefs. Because that is instilled and ingrained, it perpetuates by desensitizing people to violence. It's disproportionate for it to be accepted to commit violence to people that dissent or other similar actions. Harsh, inequitable, ideologies breed more harsh inequitable violent behavior.
Would you care to address that a majority of Muslim scholars view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance?
It would be foolish to suggest religious scholars hold the opinions and beliefs of everyone who considers themselves part of that faith. Christian scholars are not representative of all Christians. Jewish scholars are not representative of all Jews. Muslim scholars are not representative of all Muslims. This is reflected in the lines directly above and below the one you quoted:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation." The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind. Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Your comment is an example confirmation bias, commonly known as 'selective thinking' where you focus on evidence that supports your view, discarding evidence that doesn't. That's all part of that slanted view I mentioned earlier and, as I said, only leads to ignorance, anger and fear. Again I can only suggest that you try to look at things objectively, stay calm and put things into perspective.
Edit: I didn't see your comments immediately before this. I'm short on time at present, but happy to address some of the points you raise later.But I didn't make a comment to have a confirmation bias. That has been a constant tactic of yours and is why I have been using a paste for you to show your bias.
All you have highlighted is that a Majority of Muslim Scholars are teaching lies then? but does not discount that they as a majority are in fact teaching it. Christians scholars are not teaching that death should be a punishment if someone leaves the faith, or mocks God so your argument has no weight in that regard.Also Don you are conveniently ignoring and clipping out the According to Islamic Law part? There is no such thing as "Christian law". Your rebuttal that the majority of muslim scholars may not necessarily represent an individuals beliefs fails on merit because it is also tied in with unjust laws as well that do not suggest an ambiguous relationship as you claim.
Not through want of trying. Many Christians in the U.S. would like abortion to be illegal even if it means the death of the mother (the Republican candidate for the Vice Presidency is one of them). That would be an example of Christian beliefs being imposed through the law. The religious right are constantly calling for U.S. law to reflect Christian beliefs.
Not at all. Traditionally in these countries laws have not be made by consensus of majority. That tends to be the case with dictatorships. Ordinary people have been actively repressed by those who hold wealth and political power. This was true in Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt. It's happening in Syria as we speak. So I don't agree that laws in these countries have reflected the will of the people. They mostly reflected the will of the ruling elite. Those laws often don't even apply to the rulers of the countries. Alcohol is prohibited in Saudi Arabia, but in the Wikileaks cables, U.S. officials describe a halloween party thrown by a prince from the Al-Thunayan family which included alcohol, prostitutes and an abundance of drugs. So there is very much an ambiguous relationship between what scholars teach and how people actually live, especially among the wealthy classes.Well there is a big difference between someone that objects to the resulting death of an unborn to someone that objects and recommends death for apostasy. One is a potential human being the other is an ideology. A fetus does not have an ideology to contend with nor is it a strictly religious issue because some may have moral objections irrespective of belief.
There is no question that religion, morality and beliefs seep into laws, in fact the tenets of religion may be said to have originated laws. But they also incorporate justice, mercy and equitableness. You cannot be fair and dead. Impartiality, neutrality and equity are an important facet. Justice works because there is a balance. If one is dead there is no day in court to decide whether his ideologies are right or wrong or deserve some harsh penalty.
I do not think it is reasonable to believe that Islamic laws are just a product of ruling elite or dictators and not the will of the people. Unless you are saying their prophet is a dictator?Are you suggesting religious laws are okay, as long as the religion in question is Christianity? If so that reveals a bias on your part. Personally I think state and religion should be separated, regardless of the religion. And social taboos resulting from evolutionary biology pre-date religious laws, which came after the fact, but that's another conversation.
When you say Islamic law what do you mean? Muslim countries like Turkey are secular. Religious interference in legal matters is prohibited. In Malaysia the legal system is based on English common law. Sharia law applies only to Muslims there. In Morocco, Indonesia, Pakistan etc politicians make laws not religious scholars, although they are naturally influenced by Islam. So what are you talking about specifically when you say Islamic law? Do you mean Sharia? If so then which interpretation? Muslims themselves don't even agree on what constitutes Sharia. This is the problem with trying to treat Muslims as a single-minded, monolithic entity.
You can't assume that the laws of a country which has a repressive regime, reflect the will of the people. You need to make yourself aware of the views of everyday Muslims to get an idea of what everyday Muslims think.What I am saying is that just laws are just and unjust laws are unjust no matter what religious influence. An ideology that is prevalent that uses actual physical duress as a motivation or at its core tenets is incompatible with civilization. Coercion is unjust, wouldnt you agree?
When you say Islamic law what do you mean?
You referenced it here but turned it into just and unjust.Again you are showing a skewed view. Religiously, culturally, economically and politically there are multiple realities of Islam and Muslims. 18 million Muslims live in the U.S. alone. How many have rioted in the last few days? Are those 18 million people somehow less Muslim than other Muslims around the world? Of course not. The fact is Muslims can be conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, secular or extremist. You seem to be suggesting that being a Muslim and being peaceful are mutually exclusive but that simply isn't the case.
You are trying to make exceptions to the rule is the norm. If that were true there would be no problems.
I do not believe Don is doing any such thing. . It may help your understanding if you take his suggestion that be made many posts ago. .
Understanding repressive regimes might be a good place to start.I am curious. How does a repressive regime force people to be insulted? The whole notion is a non sequitur. Repressive regimes are not forcing people into the streets or can even possibly force anyone to be personally insulted and reject apostasy with violence and demonstration. An argument that thousands of people (looked like tens and hundreds of thousands in some country) spread out over numerous countries including demonstrations in Australia are all being forced to do this by repressive regimes against their will is irrational.
There are more Muslims living in America alone, than have rioted around the world in the last week. Muslims that commit violence are the exception, not the norm. How can 18 million people be considered the exception compared to a few thousand, and that's only using the Muslim population of a country which isn't predominantly Muslim. The reu figure is billions in comparison with a few thousand.
Because %'s cannot bring back an innocent life. So no one in their right mind can afford to take their chances. When it is your life, %'s are a callous pitiful argument.
So obviously we should just discriminate against everyone since every single demographic has bad people in it we should just write them off. What a ridiculous argument. The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of Christians or any other group are peaceful and good that's all that matters, discriminating against whole groups based on the actions of few is always wrong.
That's ludicrous. Dr. David Gunn was fatally shot by a Christian extremists at an anti-abortion protest in 1993. Since then there have been 6 such murders (two were receptionists at a clinic), 4 attempted murders, 15 bombings/arson attacks on abortion facilities and 1 anthrax threat.
As bad as these events are, the people who committed them represent a tiny fraction of the billions of Christians around the world, and are not representative of Christians or Christianity. But as "%'s cannot bring back an innocent life" and "no one in their right mind can afford to take their chances" are you opposed to Christianity?That is a tu quoque argument. 2 wrongs do not make it right. Jesus never advocating killing anyone and Christian scholars do not advocate that and there are no similar Christian laws like sharia that would advocate that. Plus you are equating "insulting the prophet" is the same as extremists that commit murder objecting to the killing of an unborn child. Abortion clinic terrorists are caught and put in jail if possible. Meanwhile it has the appearance of tens of thousands of people are advocating senseless murder, but it is acceptable in that culture because of the sheer UNDENIABLE numbers involved in it?
2 wrongs do not make it right.
I agree, but that was not the point being made. The point was that even though there are examples of Christian extremism, we still accept that such extremists make up a tiny fraction of the number of Christians in the world. The same is true of Muslims and Muslim extremists.
Jesus never advocating killing anyone and Christian scholars do not advocate that and there are no similar Christian laws like sharia that would advocate that.
Sharia law does not advocate killing unless in self defence. In most western countries, the right to defend yourself is also enshrined in the law. Extremists choose to interpret the Koran in ways that suit their own political agenda, but that's an aberration of Islam. People have done the same with Christianity throughout the ages in order to wage war. It's nothing new. The difference is that you acknowledge Christianity can be distorted, but don't acknowledge the same of Islam. That's because you don't know enough about Islam to separate the distortions from the core beliefs. I don't blame you. Even some Muslims fail to recognise the difference. Put it this way: what you are saying is the equivalent of a Muslim suggesting that Christianity calls for the stoning of children. We both know that's not true. It's a distortion based on an ignorance of Christianity. Likewise, what you are saying is a distortion based on an ignorance of Islam.
Plus you are equating "insulting the prophet" is the same as extremists that commit murder objecting to the killing of an unborn child.
Do you honestly think that a Christian killing a receptionist for working at an abortion clinic, is somehow better than a Muslim killing an innocent bystander because of some perceived insult? You really think that one murder is more justified than another? Really?
Abortion clinic terrorists are caught and put in jail if possible.
Likewise 50 people have been arrested in Libya for the attack on the U.S. embassy.
Meanwhile it has the appearance of tens of thousands of people are advocating senseless murder,
You've come close to advocating murder yourself here by suggesting murder by Christian extremists is somehow different to murder by Muslim extremists. Let me be clear. Just like Muslim extremism I think Christian extremism is abhorrent and utterly unacceptable, and I condemn unreservedly any Christian who commits violence in the name of their religious belief, including the killing of people who work at abortion clinics. Just so I know exactly where you stand on this, do you believe it is utterly unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone who works at an abortion clinic, and accept that there is no justification for such action? And do you condemn unreservedly those Christians who do?
but it is acceptable in that culture because of the sheer UNDENIABLE numbers involved in it?
In reference to the relatively small number of Muslim extremists compared to Muslims in the world, you said "%'s cannot bring back an innocent life" and "no one in their right mind can afford to take their chances". So with that argument in mind, I ask again does the relatively small number of Christian extremists in the world mean we should oppose Christianity? Or should we do as I suggested earlier, calm down, learn and keep things in perspective._________________________________________________
But you are not portraying it accurately because 6-8 deaths by anti-abortionists in 19 years are not the same as thousands of people in each and every state in the USA protesting and demanding death to abortion doctors constantly for decades upon decades. So your analogy is not honestly describing the reality. In that same amount of time 25,000,000 babies have been aborted, so yes I can see why it is a more emotional and deeper issue than a book or a youtube video where thousands and thousands of people riot, kill and destroy property that actually DOES happen and has been happening for decades upon decades.
I was refreshing my memory on the Salman Rushdie deal. Do you know how many people were killed and how many bookstores were bombed? Do you really want to go toe to toe on body counts? Comparing extremism for extremism for the last 50 years?
Here is a quote on the Salman Rushdie deal from wiki-
The issue was said to have divided "Muslim from Westerners along the fault line of culture,and to have pitted a core Western value of freedom of expression—that no one "should be killed, or face a serious threat of being killed, for what they say or write against the view of many Muslims—that no one should be free to "insult and malign Muslims" by disparaging the "honour of the Prophet" Muhammad.
Don, I think this excerpt above is the real issue. What do you think?I find your comments about Christian extremism concerning. It sounds like you are justifying it. Can you make it clear where you stand in the issue. Do you believe it is unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone who works at an abortion clinic? Do you accept there is no justification for such action? And do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action? For me the answer to all three questions is yes. Do you agree?
Well Don you are stooping to red herrings now. Don there is a reason the media is filled with this stuff for every day of my nearly 50 year life- is because it is true. You may be able to beguile some young person that it is not true, but they will eventually see it for what it is and more than likely lose a loved one or a relative in the future because of it.
That excerpt I posted where there is a line being drawn between basic human rights and freedom and whether anyone can insult your prophet, or not: is said to be a cultural difference between west and middle east.
That is not a cultural difference: it is a difference between what is just and what is unjust. Between good and evil.PhoenixV, in a discussion about religious violence, I don't think it's a red herring to ask where you stand on the subject of religious violence. I think it's a reasonable question. From your comments, I suspect you condemn religious violence committed by Muslims, but support religious violence committed by Christians, which would explain the opinions you've presented here. However it's easy to misunderstand or misinterpret someone's comments in an online discussion. As oceansnsunsets said earlier, it's better to ask exactly what someone means, than draw a false conclusion. So for that reason I ask again:
Do you believe it is unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone who works at an abortion clinic? Do you accept there is no justification for such action? And do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action?
Again in the interest of clarity, for me the answer to all three questions is yes, but I'd like to know exactly where you stand on the issue.But I am not anti-abortion so its a strawman. Since 1993 an equivalent of the population of North Korea has been aborted in America and 6-8 people were killed in response to that motivating factor. When I looked into it I found out that in some of those cases the people doing the killing and bombing were mentally ill and didnt have an affiliation. 25, 000,000 million abortions would still be a motivating factor, meanwhile your motivating factor is a youtube video. And you would like to equate the two? You would like to say they are christian when in some of those cases they were clearly mentally ill? So is your argument that all those tens of thousands of muslims for the last 50 years include a very large percentage of mental illness? Your analogies are not honest Don.
I have seen debate groups post 5,000-10,000 posts a month for a decades on abortion. You want to try to drag it in here to bury the topic with a red herring.
The reason why? Is because your arguments are poorly veiled propaganda by your own admission.
hey Don ? Those guys in the photos could be practicing another one of your quaint customs called Taqiyya.
The aim is to mislead the enemy about the true nature, goals, or strength of Islam.
a line is supposedly being drawn between basic human rights and freedom and whether anyone can insult your prophet, or not: is said to be a cultural difference between west and middle east.
That is not a cultural difference: it is a difference between what is just and what is unjust. Between good and evil.It's not a strawman. The questions are not about your views on abortion. They are about your views on religious violence, which is the subject under discussion.
It's puzzling that you would be willing to spend time and effort openly expressing your thoughts and opinions about religious violence in relation to Muslims (clearly you condemn such violence, as do I) yet are reluctant to answer some questions that will indicate your opinion about Christian extremist violence. Instead your reply skirts all around the subject, without answering. Can you please simply answer the questions without prevarication.
Do you believe it is unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone who works at an abortion clinic? Do you accept there is no justification for such action? And do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action?The reason that I will not is because abortion is not exclusively a religious issue. I showed that there was a demographic proportionality of mentally ill people and adherence. A large percentage of the cases were not Christian but just mentally ill. You would like to characterize crazy people- as Christians adhering to a belief system, when they are not in cases but just plain crazy. Killing people is not in the teachings or major Christian denominations or believers. It is a special interest issue, where there is purported to be violence against people that are Pro-life, as well. Is it just more Christians and crazy people committing violence against pro-life Christians? No, It is a special interest issue. But even in your smear, these are very few cases comparatively without marginalizing them. However on the other hand "insulting the prophet" has no ambiguity - we know that it is religiously motivated and religiously motivated violence and death. But here is the kicker. We are talking an infinitely and vastly amount by comparison of death, bombings, and mayhem.
Again you have skirted around the questions without answering them. I am not asking about the mentally ill, or pro-choice advocates, or Muslims. I am asking where you stand on the issue of Christian religious violence. The questions are very clear and straightforward. If you agree with Christian religious violence, say so. If you don't, say so. I'm not sure what the difficulty is. Can we try again:
Do you believe it is unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone who works at an abortion clinic? Do you accept there is no justification for such action? And do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action?I am not going to entertain comparing rare special interest ( that could be politically motivated or involve personally held convictions and involve personally held moral objections despite demographically reasonable religious affllliation) terrorism to wide scale religiously motivated violence. They are not a comparable analogy in scale or intent. I certainly will not entertain comparing unborn children with youtube videos or perceived insults. That would be immoral. That is just more evidence of your mentality is it not? Life does not mean anything?
Nope. You are evading again. Please give three direct answers to three direct questions.
Do you believe it is unacceptable for a Christian to kill someone on the grounds that they work at an abortion clinic?
Do you accept there is no justification for such action?
Do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action?I am giving you a direct answer Don. Abortion doctor murder and abortion clinic bombings is a special interest extremism. I do not think that it is religious motivated, necessarily. I think they are doing it to stop abortion- not express some religious belief.
The stark contrast between the two comparisons besides the intent and scale is that there seems to be a linear cause and effect Don. Even mentally ill people that murder abortion doctors are not so crazy that they are killing random innocent people on the other side of the globe who are not even involved in abortion or abortion clinics. Even they are not that crazy, irrational or oppressive.
I grew up with Roe VS Wade since 1973. It is the law of the land. I think that a women should have the right to have an abortion- especially, if she is a victim of something like a rape jihad. By the way. what are rape jihads- that is being described happening in Europe?It is quite clearly religiously motivated, but whatever the motivation, do you think it's acceptable to murder someone because they work at an abortion clinic?
No it is not clearly motivated by religion that is a non sequitur. I would not call it "extremism or murder" -countless times- if I didn't consider it unacceptable.
The command to propagate the muslim belief by the sword is always required, when it can be made effective and the commands of their prophet may be performed by fraud, and force. The doctrine of the Quran is, never ending war against any who deny that muhammad is the prophet of god.The "Army of God" is described by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses (part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security) as:
'an underground network of terrorists who believe that the use of violence is an appropriate tool for fighting against abortion. An excerpt from the Army of God Manual says that the Army of God "is a real Army, and God is the General and Commander-in-Chief.'
The group has committed kidnapping, attempted murder, and murder.
A statement of intent released by the groups itself says:
"We the undersigned, declare the justice of taking all Godly action necessary, including the use of force, to defend innocent human life (born and unborn). We proclaim that whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child."
So yes, violence against abortion clinics and staff is very clearly religiously motivated. In this case the clue is even in the title.
So:
Do you believe it is unacceptable for the Christian terrorist group known as 'Army of God' to kill someone on the grounds that they work at an abortion clinic?
Do you accept there is no justification for such action?
Do you condemn unreservedly those Christians that take such action?It is not reasonably religiously motivated because in their statement they are specifically devoted to stopping abortion not espousing a doctrine, verse, tenent promoted by Jesus or Christianity. Rare cases such as that where someone claims they are Christian yet are not promoting any specific doctrine or verse or tenet or teaching to support their actions and is counter to what it taught is not the same. Jesus taught forgiveness and to obey authority and sacrificed his life. Since 1973 there have been very few cases to broad-brush Christianity. There are also no conjoined apostasy laws with the belief in our culture that allows that specific type or any kind of terrorism in Christianity. You cannot make the same claim. Probably more teenagers are killed over tennis shoes and sneakers in the last 3 years than all the abortion clinic killings in 40 years. I find it appalling that you would compare the aborting of millions of unborn children and the extremely rare aberrations of those that use force to stop it as the same as someone writing a book or posting a youtube video.
Anyways, any comment on the rape jihads being reported in europe?Honestly, this seems a severe case of desperation, to compare the two. 6- 8 cases since the 1970's, of people going AGAINST the word of God and Christ himself, do NOT make your desperately needed to be made, case.
This is sheer desperation.
You can point to the heretics of Christianity all day long, you will ALWAYS find them, and find that some will say anything. A murderers comments, aren't always true, and in fact in many cases probably are not! People saying things, never makes them true, and I have had to say this several times before. If you want to truly go after Christianity, do so fairly please.Don you seem to be making some big errors here in your argument, which I have shown already collapses on itself for the obvious reasons, let me break it down even further however.
Any group can say anything, but its not a Christian concept, at the outset, to say you can take Godly action, by taking life or abusing another, as a means to exact justice. You might have heard the verse that includes this, "Vengeance is mine, thus says the Lord..." Have you not heard that before? Christians are not to take judgement into their own hands, period. If they do, they are going against the bible. It is tough, I admit, because how awful it is to take unborn human life from defenseless unborn babies. God will have his vengeance one day.
One need no religion, by the way, to KNOW that the taking of any human life at any of its many stages, is deeply immoral. This group that calls themselves Christians, can in no way be compared to the people of Islam that have been committing their atrocious crimes when they do, EVEN IF YOU HAD AN ARGUMENT. You do not however. Its not just my saying so, but showing how that makes the difference.
I don't know that you can rightly call anyone a Christian, that acts in a TRULY unchristian manner, making them judge and jury in the case of taking human life, when it is Gods. For anyone to do so, shows their desperation, to defend a possible indefensible point. This may be frustrating to you, but so be it, as you have chosen to side with a not so great idea or set of ideas.
Of course, I and all the Christians I know would condemn murdering anyone in cold blood, and God and Jesus Christ do NOT command it either. The Christians prophet was very diametrically opposed, or would be, still is I think, to Mohammads teachings, behaviors and ideas.
THIS, is the crux of this whole argument, and the one realistic point that many cannot bear to admit or look at honestly. NEEDING Christianity to have terror groups, will never make it so. No one denies there are people out there, that really think they are Christians, call themselves Christians, and sometimes do horrendous things. Its not justified, and I hope you are willing to be a fair minded individual that cares about justice in all these cases.I think he desperately wants to switch in abortion because then he can hide his own indefensible positions behind the ensuing 50,000 word manifestos that always accompany the abortion topic.
Any person that says they are "taking Godly action" in the form of violence, murder or terrorism would immediately be branded heretics by every Christian Church I know of. Only God takes Godly action- and "taking Godly action" isnt even a verse in the entire Bible anyways- He wants to compare extreme rare examples to the VAST evidence and VAST occurrences that are obviously culturally acceptable.
If it was not enough that they use force and violence to propagate their beliefs for the last 1,000 years its quite literally been a two edged sword. They have also used fraud and lies to propagate the belief as paraphrased by the above statement by John Quincy Adams. Nothing has changed since John Quincy Adams stated that from his experience in dealing with them in foreign affairs.
If someone claims that muslims deplore violence on innocent people because someone insulted the prophet then it is reasonable to conclude based on over 1,000 years of experience is that its just a lie to continue their agenda.You make great points, that make logical sense, and back up what we see now and in history.
What is getting me, is that you need to explain things to this degree and spell things out that should be a "given." Still, its important, because it matters in this seeming war against Christianity we are seeing in the world, and the lies being propagated against it.
Anyone can find half a dozen instances of a gross abuse done by ANY group... and try to distort it to mean what they WANT it to mean. Truth and reality don't work in such ways. This is actually an example of where the mainstream media has people brainwashed perhaps, even if not Don, but maybe he and others, that there are all these Christians out there murdering up abortion doctors.
EVEN if it meant what he hopes it does, it doesn't compare, its not a good parallel for what he is hoping it is.
To test this, are people that murder doctors, following in Christ's footsteps and teachings? Yes or no..... of course not. This isn't the real struggle we see anyway though, and rather, its learning about what the Muslim extremists believe...are they being heretical? Denying reality doesn't help ANY of us that want to live in a free world, where freedoms for all are the goal. Where if you don't have your life to begin with, you lost all freedoms right then and there.Its the weakest, flimsiest tu quoque argument I have seen in 10+ years of debate. Feel free to post 10,000 word rebuttals, arguments, comparisons regarding every aspect of abortion because in the end Don will still be left with his great big ugly gorilla in the room.
oceansnsunsets, same questions to you:
Do you believe it is acceptable to kill someone on the grounds that they work at an abortion clinic?
Do you believe there is a justification for such action?
Do you support people that take such action?
I think a group called the 'Army of God', made up of individuals who all identify themselves as Christians (and do in fact quote chapter and verse from the Bible in support of their violence) is religiously motivated. But let me make things easier by broadening this out a bit, because I really am interested in getting to the bottom of what you think on this:
Do you believe it is acceptable for anyone to kill someone on the grounds that they work at an abortion clinic?
Do you believe there is a justification for such action?
Do you support people that take such action?Well Don I am a Christian that supports abortion laws "especially" in cases like jihad rapes that I am hearing are going on in Europe. So you are barking up the wrong tree with me.
Yea Don them guys that are holding signs objecting to all the innocent people that are being killed over a goofball Youtube video are probably using the same deception that the belief system is known for, for over a thousand years.You could be a politician the way you avoid answering a question. I didn't ask if you support abortion laws. I asked if you believe it is acceptable for anyone to kill someone on the grounds that they work at an abortion clinic? The question is about whether you support illegal violent actions. Do you believe there is a justification for such actions Do you support people that take such action?
By the way, I've asked these questions on another thread to see what other Christians have to say. The two Christians that replied were happy to answer, and were both against such actions. I'm not sure why you find it difficult to answer. Are you ashamed of your own beliefs?Don, it is not responsible to give a couple guys holding signs the benefit of a doubt because the danger outweighs any considerations or alleged concessions. Furthermore the inherent problem with the proliferation of a philosophy that quite literally "lives by the sword" combined with the use of deception and deceit would make it illogical to trust the meager acknowledgments or apologies presented.
You would like to even label them "brave" which is an insult to the word brave itself and is an especially insulting term given the circumstances.
Here is what brave looks like Don.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/103727
The religion, belief system, philosophy or combination thereof, I liken unto the Titanic. Admittedly large in size and just as arrogantly managed, heading swiftly for the cold hard and unyielding reality of a civilized world and with the same tragic results.
Don, this is not my website. Because of this topic and the amount of similar related topics showing up in this forum, I cannot in good conscience continue this debate out of what I believe is high probability of danger that the site may be exposed to or anyone posting may be exposed to. If they will kill a random innocent person over a youtube video, what will they not do?Fear is a powerful motivator, that is why it is used so much to influence group behavior. Silence due to fear, does not make the fear go away!
All Muslims who speak out against religious violence at personal risk are brave. There are other kinds of bravery too though. Like going into a place that can be hostile and trying to make peace in it; Being the stranger in a place, and trying to forge friendships there; Having different beliefs, yet looking for common values; Entering a place you are distrusted, and trying to earn trust. Martin Luther King showed that kind of bravery, Mahatma Gandhi showed it. A man called Jesus, who some called the Christ, showed it. And Chris Stevens tried to emulate those people and show similar bravery. It cost all of them their lives. It's the kind of bravery that changes the world.
One of those people said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." So if you want to see an end to hate, stop hating. If you want to see and end to religious violence, don't condemn violence committed by one group, then use special pleading to make violence committed by another acceptable. And find others from all religions and political persuasions. The best chance of eradicating religious violence is for Christians and Muslims who are against violence to stand together against Christians and Muslims who commit and support violence. It's not Christians against Muslims. It's peaceful people against violent people.
But most importantly, calm down. By your own admission you are afraid to comment on an internet forum because you think it's too 'dangerous'. You are so steeped in fear from what the media is pumping at you on a 24 hour cycle, you can't even think straight. Put things into perspective. Another thing one of the above said was "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." Find out what people in the Muslim community are doing try to change things. Offer your support. Demonstrate a bit of the courage mentioned above. Don't follow the old "us" vs "them" routine.
I really don't think there is anything I can say to help you. Only you can do that. Things are not nearly as bad as you think, and it benefits some people for you to be feeling afraid. But all the people you've seen on your screens rioting are still only a drop in the ocean of humanity. Don't fall into that trap of thinking otherwise. As I said before, stay calm, learn and put things into perspective. Another of the people above said "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." So here are some more Muslims groups that speak out against violence. Perhaps you can start being the change you want to see, by supporting them:
-- The Violence Is Not Our Culture campaign was started by a Muslim, Yakin Ertürk, "to eliminate all forms of 'culturally-justified' violence".
-- The Free Muslims Coalition is a Muslim organisation that condemns both religious violence and terrosim.
-- TheWomen’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality (WISE) is an international social justice movement led by Muslim women. Here is what they say about stoning.
-- The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan is a group formed by Muslim women to condemn stoning and other fundamentalist practices.
-- Here is a Muslim T.V. programme on Aljezeera presented by Riz Khan that condemns honour killings, and explores the issues surrounding that brutal practice.
-- And another programme of his about religious violence where he critically examines the issue. Both Islam and Christianity are discussed.
-- The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society is an organisation established by Muslims who want to see the complete separation of state and religion in Islamic countries. Read their mission statement.
-- The Celebrate Mercy charity is a Muslim organisation which has set up the MercyMail Campaign. It is "responding to an evil deed with a good one. The goal of our 10-day MercyMail campaign is for 5,000 people to send online condolences to the family of Ambassador Stevens". On opening the campaign received more than 3,000 letters of condolence from Muslims around the world within the first 48 hours.
Are you saying that repressive regimes are forcing people into the streets against their will? Common sense suggests that they are personally motivated to uphold personal belief in rejection of apostasy.
You've lost me. Are you suggesting people taking offence in recent days is because of Sharia law?
What I am saying is that it cannot be assumed that Muslims that deplore the killing of U.S. ambassador to Libya will protect innocent human beings from being killed again by people that support murder of people that do not share their dangerous beliefs.
No, I'm highlighting the fact that a survey of religious scholars won't tell you what the majority of people in a religion think as there is often a disconnect between the two. That's just how religions tend to work. Most Christian teachers for example would say sex before marriage is wrong according to the Christian faith. In practice few Christians follow that teaching. The best way to find out what people of a religion think, is to ask them, not scholars.
Gallup did that in 2008. They conducted tens of thousands of interviews with people in more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries. Among other things, they found the majority of Muslims are more interested in finding a better job than fighting in a Jihad, and are just as likely to consider attacks on civilians as unjustified as Americans. This is important because they weren't Muslim scholars. Just ordinary Muslims. The reason you may find the results hard to believe is because it doesn't match what you see and hear of Muslims on the T.V. and in the papers. But as I said earlier, that view is slanted because of the way Corporate media works.I think that represents a false dichotomy. I too would rather win the lottery than report to be drafted into the Army. Likewise a poll that says that someone would rather have a job than fight a " war based on differing ideologies"-is apples and oranges BUT reveals the core problem.
The culture actually endorses furthering its own ideologies by force.This wasn't presented as a choice between a jihad or a better job (not winning the lottery). It was open-ended. They could have answered anything. According to popular perception, Muslims are all fanatics who want to die in glory as martyrs. In reality, as this survey of ordinary Muslims (not 'scholars') shows, what most Muslims wanted was not religious at all. Just a better job. Not too dissimilar to what you'd expect if Americans were asked the same question. Again, it reveals that skewed view and false perception.
Don? I am not your enemy. Is there any way that you and I can just talk without pretense and without "either of us" just pasting or making an intentionally crafted argument? Otherwise I do not see any point.
I don't view you as an enemy. Not sure what you mean by pretense. I don't really pretend, just say it as I see it. As for pasting, don't have an issue if the information is relevant. A reference is always nice too so people can view the source themselves. Not sure what you mean by 'intentionally crafted'. I generally just say what I think.
The point I was making is that you are assuming that everyone is making generalizations or stereotyping. Your desire is for people to judge people on an individual basis. My response is why should anyone continue to treat people as individuals when there isn't any other group of people in the streets chanting death to entire nationalities? Death to entire nationalities? I am not an AMERICA, I am not a COUNTRY. I am a human being that lives in America. Why should anyone continue to facilitate something others are unwilling to do?
Because any point you may have becomes moot when you become just as bad as those people, they are ignorant, often not through their own fault but through brainwashing and media controlled by people who want to portray the US as evil you don't have that restriction but you are still making the same mistake of lumping them together which really makes you worse.
Can we be sure those words weren't just photoshop'd into the picture?
That was my first thought, but in assuming the best here, it is great that this man can read and write English, even if he can't spell ( yet knows things phonetically.....) , then good for him. I have nothing against that man in particular. He is brave, that is for sure.
To the men and women that honestly make a sign, and want peace, I am for them. I am for those that were working hard that day their lives were taken for EXTREMELY poor reasons. Its a guise I think even, that they are "blaming it on two little videos...." , whose comments are worse than the videos. They hate America.
Be for freedom for people back home too! You can't have freedom if you are aren't alive.Bravo! I am here typing giving you a standing ovation!
The only thing I want to add here is that I find it it refreshing to see Muslims living in a country where they CAN speak out. It is not easy to be in the Muslim world where there are regimes that would not let you voice your opinion at all. I shutter for people in a place like Iran where if you showed something like this they will cart you off to Evin Prison.
Yes I am sure this is still somewhat dangerous for these people to be speaking out and actually apologizing but this is some progress and I think in the right direction for the world.
MM,
I disagree that this was retaliation for the film or somebody else suggested the drones attacks. This was a planned coordinated attack and was scheduled to take place on September 11 and for obvious reasons.
The administration was quick to lay blame on the film. Why the quick question the judgment? When came to the shootings at Fort Hood, Obama was all over don't rush to judgment wait for the investigation. And of course despite the results of the investigation the administration decide to call it a work place incident.
I wonder how the citizens of Libya came to watch this video on YouTube which is the trailer for the movie which is not yet been released? If everybody remembers while Libya was going through its turmoil, reporters had a hard time getting the news out, streaming their reports using the cameras on their cell phones. The citizens of Libya couldn't get reports of their plight out because there was no Internet.
Just as I posted this, Libya has made arrests of four people who were part of the planning of the attacks, and it was not because of the movie
.http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/13/consulate-attack-planned-as-2-part-militant-assault-libyan-official-says/
While I applaud the statement I think you are making here (for once it is a breathe of fresh air to see there are Libyans Against Terrorism) in regard to MM's last post I think you misinterpreted what she was saying and may have done so just to take a dig at Obama.
So I ask you how do you feel about the way that Romney used the riots in Libya and the death of Chris Stevens as a way to defame Obama. Had he kept quiet on Tuesday, he would be well placed now to raise some legitimate concerns about what happened: Why was the consulate in Libya so lightly guarded? What returns is the United States getting on the billions of dollars in aid it provides to Egypt? Why did we intervene in Libya but not in Syria? What’s our over-all policy for the Middle East? If he tries to make these points today or tomorrow, his intervention will be widely dismissed as another political ploy.
Shoot first and aim later is surely not very Presidential.
Such as previous statements concerning other events by the current POTUS?
"I don't have any details but the Cambridge police acted stupidly."I promise you, someone in Romney's campaign is catching hell from the RNC, that press conference was a terrible idea. Matt Rhoades should have his head examined for letting Mitt Romney give that statement, and fired for letting him take questions after.
The press was already beginning to hit the Obama administration over the so called "apology statement", and if Romney would have kept his mouth shut and just offered his condolences for the victims and their families, he could have derailed this bump the President has been getting, and possibly even gained some ground.
Now, not only did he let the President "off the hook", he pretty much gave him a "get out of jail free" card on the whole issue. Just a pitiful example of campaign strategy by people who should definitely know better. This was the "Bill Buckner Moment" of the Romney/Ryan campaign.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." ~Napoleonby now we are so used to Romney gaffes that little comes as a surprise. Let's see what comes next
Shoot first, aim later is what Obama said about Romney too, lol. I am happy that Romney didn't just sit back on this one. He was spot on, and if anyone wants to critique what he actually said, then I am curious how they could disagree with it.
Its shameful to me, that there would be even ONE American, that would support Obama in what he has said after this all happened. Obama IS very unpresidential. He IS sending mixed messages tot he world. People in America are falling for goofy little quips that have been used before, like shoot first, aim later, without even THINKING for one minute if Romney even did something like that. They just believe what they are spoon fed, and its like America is going comatose. Truth be told, they probably don't like it that Obama made such a huge mistake, that shows his inner leanings, and un American ways, and don't want to be true, what actually is true.
I don't feel bad for America anymore....those that care about freedoms for all, have fought a good fight, but you can't win against terrorists and those that sympathize with them, and apologize when American's share their views in not a movie, but a couple video trailers.
The White house wants people to REALLY think its all about that. Its helping to cover a deeper truth of how America is perceived around the world. If we actually think hard about how the world looks on America, then that will upset Obamas chances of being reelected, etc. He hasn't even begun to really fundamentally change America like he said, yet. He has alluded to it even. Its alarming. If America votes him in again, after what they know now, I won't feel bad one bit for what goes down, and I hope to get out. It is no longer the country it was.
It wasn't even a film after all. It was two smaller youtube videos, trailers.
It makes me think of other videos as well, where some show actual atrocities being done, by terrorists. People need to wake up... Even then, people want to stop the terror, not go on murderous rampages and blaming others for their evil.
Freedom for all, that is my hope for people everywhere.
Exactly..... people don't like the reality of what Islam is, what its prophet taught, and what its closest adherents know their leader taught. If you point it out, you are the next target.... and they want to act like they don't realize what it looks like? We all see it, and we already knew.
People need to be better accepting of reality. It is what it is...stop being mad (not this poster I am responding to, but everyone)for people pointing out what is real and true. This is what most of America is upset about if you think about it. The side with the worse ideas, has to play nastier and be more deceptive, to cover ti all up. That is what happens when you defend a bad idea, philosphy, or group of ideas as plays out in some religions in particular. Why do people hate reality so much? There is no getting away from it.
People are hating and killing over it.....
One thing that seems very likely....these were coordinated "attacks" (not protests) designed to take place on the anniversary of 9/11. Our embassies were woefully unprotected and we are lucky that many more did not die in the early hours. I see nothing of the love and tolerance so associated with the Muslim faith when I view the video from news sources. This is nothing more than a worked up mob mentality of people who have been given a free rein to act out without repercussions. We can expect more of the same. One might remember Ghadayfi and his smart mouth who carried on for months and months post Jimmy Carter making public statements about what he would do to America. Ronald Reagan called his bluff on that one....it is amazing what fine work the F-111 Fighter-Bomber could do. This region of the world does not recognize humility and tolerance as a strength. That approach will only get us more of the same. Each time an American life is lost in this process, it becomes a little easier for this administration to shrug its shoulders and attempt to "justify" what we did to deserve such behavior. There is nothing in our actions which even comes close to the process of leadership. Nothing. ~WB
Regardless, someone just woke up half a billion sleepers, not including women and children, worldwide + is causing a unification between the three main sectors. That number is 10 times the entire WW2 military forces combined.
22 countries in mass protest from Malaysia to India, Sudan to Lebanon... 6 US and 1 German embassy, a UK-US military base, plus restaurants, cars etc.
This wasn't just from a video. But appears to have reached a boiling point because of it...
And one can time something happening in Palestine or Iran any moment now -especially with a new round of protests by the Jihads in support of the Spring and the Brotherhood.
Going to be one interesting weekend to say the least..
JamesWhat is your take on it? A natural occurrence or contrived ?
The scenario is difficult to access, but given the nature of tensions among the sects -generations of suppression and global influence to shift powers -the elastic has reached a snapping point.
Granted, 01 to 12 has exceedingly stretched that band, but this is more of a natural occurrence. The uniting of the 3 sects on what seems a petty YouTube broadcast by an unknown, however, raises an eyebrow in the opposite direction.
Above all, the danger in waking these feelings and frustrations by a huge collective is nothing short of catastrophic. It is easy to manage or engage 600,000 men marching from France to Moscow, in winter. But this scenario deals with upwards of a million well armed, trained, communicative, no-fear clusters of 50 to 2000, spread across three continents. It is nearly impossible to recognize them and even more bizarre to stop them all simultaneously. The shock of it, at this level comes from realizing the peaceful of them will take up arms to defend themselves, their fellow believers and against those who have forced this frustration.
James
I think those that are on the side of terror, or support those that are, are upset in part because of the anniversary of 9-11. Its way worse than any two short video trailers of an unreleased movie.
People world over are seeing again and again, how atrocious some people can be, and are reminded of how their more "peaceful" counterparts, or many of them, dancing in the streets because of a cowardly murderous attack on innocent human life. THIS is, what it is...and it surely is infuriating on some level. Killing more innocent people, then making excuses about it, while our president is shamefully (too good a word) apologizing, is going to create a lot more problems.
I hope the world is watching, especially my fellow Americans. This has to end. Everyone is in an upheaval, and people need to take responsibility for what they do, who and what they blame, and what they do to change things for the better. Enough of the changing for the obvious worse.....
If it is true that the great majority of muslims are not extremists and condemn the violence against anything not muslim, it would be nice to see it reflected in real life.
The reality we observe in this world, sheds the truest light on the truth of things. In a time where we have such opposing views, from seemingly normal and healthy and thinking people, we need reality checks more than ever.
You hit on the biggest key point of it all. We see what we see. People seem to be struggling with reality more than I have ever seen in my whole life. Their responses to many things, show this to be true.
Good thing we don't often do that with our health. For example, if you get cancer, you might go to many of the unpleasant extremes to deal with it. Its not pleasant, but denying the reality only brings you death faster anyway. We don't deal in reality well, or some don't anyway. If they did, and they were fair and really thinking hard about things.
No one ever had to LIKE reality, for people in this world, and over history, to have to deal with reality.
We are caught up in a mentality, where we just don't want certain things to be true, or don't want to accept something might not be true. People are just "side takers" anymore, it seems.
This will come to bite us all, it will be unpleasant, it already is.
The victims and their families of 9-11, both this year and the past, know full well what it feels like to watch as others don't deal with reality. My heart goes out to them.If you really want to talk about reality first walk in the shoes of a Muslim living day to day in the Muslim world right now and then you can say this.
Wavegirl, no offense, but you are really missing the point here. I can prove this, because what you say there, has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that more innocent people died on 9-11 this year and in years past, and that a youtube video isn't the cause of that.
Walking in their shoes, how about they walk in the shoes of the dead Ambassador? What is you point exactly? Walk in the shoes of someone still crippled or grieving over loss after an attack. This is just a bad case of hoping to redirect the point, and hoping no one notices. No one suggested we ought to not care about Muslims, or anyone. I am asking you care more about why many are rioting and DON'T condemn the pure evil that comes so often.
Denying the realities doesn't help.
I just thought this was a cute pic someone made. It got a lol from me, and I figured I'd share it...
Arguments resume.Emm, debatable, Tony Blair thought the bombing of Iraq was his Christian duty. Lots of people died.
Huge difference, Jesus commanded the opposite of those kinds of things, and people can say anything. The truth is, Islams prophet and teachings, the writings say a lot in regard to these things. Don't take my word, read up on it yourself.
Christianity is one tough religion. Excellent point. If anyone DID murder after someone made fun of it, the very words of Jesus would be the first to condemn them.....
Weak religions have to defend words said of them, that are often true, based on their prophet and the writings.
No more libel in this thread please. Calling people hateful, or full of hatred, and everything else I see by a couple here, is uncalled for. IF you have a good point to make against me or others, say it....don't play games and hit below the belt. That isn't cool.
This is a forum site, where people can be civil, and use reasoned discussion and debate, or not. If you can't, perhaps you aren't up for your own held beliefs for some reason. I am going to ask in the future, that people respond to particular points I made, without cutting and pasting and distorting it. It is quiet upsetting, and a showing of your own hand, if you resort to this kind of thing. Showing ONE person holding a sign that goes contrary to something I have said about the murderous people, is not right, nor a response or rebuttal.
Bring a good game, or don't play please. Step up the debate... anyone can do what you are doing. Yes...I am pointing it out. Let us all be fair, and begin without trying to MISS the good points made. If I make a bad point, ask me about it, ask if that is what I am saying. Here is an example...
If I say people are rioting, and killing, ask me first, if I mean that all Muslims riot and kill people. Rather, you already knew the answer, and didn't have a better response, so you choose to play like that. Others are cheerleading and saying poor things about others here that make good points. That is not right. Stop it please. Thanks in advance, and looking forward to more peaceful and conducive discussions in the future.To you Don, and all here, and all Muslims as well that are true peace promoters, I absolutely stand behind. Let there be no question. I personally have a dream that it would be ideal if we could all live and let live in this world.
I can live peaceably alongside of any religion, as long as they don't want to take away my personal freedoms. I support theirs as well. Thanks to all that support peace. Please don't mistake the concern here by some, to be that they are against peaceful Muslims.Can you please explain this a bit more. Is this what you think happens in the Muslim world? If so can you give us an example.
I am a bit confused with this statement. Is it the ruling elite or dictators . .will of the people? Who do you think the Islamic laws are a product of? Which country? Who what and where are you referring to?I'm not sure what you are specifically asking, but my response is to Don's claim or suggestion that the overall practice of ideology and adherence to Islamic law is something elite or ruling class are deciding and the majority of people are just unwilling participants. I just don't believe that is the case. I believe Don when he says they have more liberal or moderate adherents that want to change this, but I do not believe they are indicative of a pragmatic application.
PhoenixV - In my very humble opinion I do not understand how one can take part in a conversation of this magnitude without understanding what a repressive regimen is. You speak of common sense in your threads so I ask you what do you think a repressive regimen is. You say you are curious about it and it is surely an easy google search. It is important to understand this very basic concept before you can understand why Don started this thread in the first place.
I wont even ask how or why Australia come into this conversation at this point but I am scratching my head in wonder.Exactly, why would they demonstrate in Sydney over a youtube video in America? Australia isnt considered a repressive regime, so no possible way to sweep that under the rug or shell game culpability. Of course all the people that are getting killed had no involvement in a youtube video either?
Kids will be kids and some kid might make a video in the future and put it on youtube with a cartoon of the prophet and more innocent people are going to die. You explain to the families why they had to die.Change the subject all you want. Personally I have learned alot here from Don and I want to take the time to thank him for the time he spends trying to share his knowledge. But please if you too want to understand all that Don has shared you need to understand what a repressive regime is and what that does to a person.
I know what a repressive regime is. I know that its just being used as an excuse in this case. Because Australia isn't a repressive regime and repressive regimes cannot dictate people being insulted. But whatever you do, don't draw a picture of the prophet, even if its flattering, because innocent people could get killed and the families of the dead wont be interested in any nonsensical excuses.
Please take no offense but do you read what you post before you hit submit? If you do maybe I am missing something as I do not understand that you say
and then go on to say
From the Dictionary:
repressive |riˈpresiv|
adjective
(esp. of a social or political system) inhibiting or restraining the freedom of a person or group of people : a repressive regime.
• inhibiting or preventing the awareness of certain thoughts or feelings : a repressive moral code.
A google search on "repressive regimes"
Repressive societies are defined as exerting pervasive state control over daily life, banning free speech, independent organizations, and political opposition, and practicing severe human rights violations. Source: Freedom in the World, 2007, published by Freedom HouseThat would be a great excuse but it does not fly in Australia. Its not a repressive regime in Australia. You are working off of a no true Scotsman fallacy= Only repressive regimes produce people that are insulted which is an exercise in inanity somewhat like this very conversation has devolved into.
Who is talking about Australia?
This thread is about. . ..
Muslims deplore the killing of U.S. ambassador to LibyaIt was a rebuttal to the OP's suggestion that any negative actions by individuals can be blamed on a repressive regime and thereby exculpating individuals. And I showed that it was a false notion. If you would care to read the progression of the discourse it would save everyone some time bringing you up to speed on each and every past post. Have great day, goodbye.
I have read the progression and the only thing that is clear at this moment is that need to understood what a repressive regime is before you can rebutt anything.
Obviously when Don W suggested certain things for you to ponder you went to your many channels on your TV to come up with something 'smart' to say. Why not take this suggestion that you seemed to have ignored.Yet Australia is not a repressive regime where children were shown holding signs saying "behead anyone that insults the prophet". So any point you think you have is refuted because you cannot blame it on a repressive regime in that case. If someone beheads someone because even children are being used to spread that mentality in a NON REPRESSIVE REGIME I will direct the victims families to you to explain it.
Thanks for your kind words. Glad you understand where I'm coming from.
Don V - I just want to take this moment out to thank you for this thread and to apologize if I took it in anyway off track. In my 3 years here on Hubpages it is hard to understand how this is the first time I have had the pleasure of reading your words. The forums are so much more enlightening when someone who actually knows what they are talking about can it express in a venue such as this and someone like me can take part and learn a thing or 2 and I am glad I stumbled in here.
For your time and energy bringing the Muslim world in a brighter light then most are used to is laudable and I once again rise and give you a standing ovation.I wish there were more like you around. Its always a good thing to learn something.It continues to amaze me (in a horrifying way, I literally can't believe it...), that people are still making these killings of innocent Americans on 9-11, more about the trailer of an unreleased movie.
People need to be strong, take pride or not in what they believe. We see people doing this every day, and are often killed for their beliefs, but they would NEVER kill others for speaking badly of them. They would rather die. Its immoral to focus on someone being offended...when the biggest offense to anyone is TAKING THEIR LIFE!
Do people not realize its almost like selling your soul, to minimize these deaths and putting down of America as we continue to see, in favor of people that would kill others, just for being insulted?
Those kinds of people, in free societies, are the ones that get locked up usually, to help maintain a peaceful society for the non law breakers. Yet we sit back and believe the lies fed to us by the mainstream media. Why are people checking their brains somewhere else...and being almost programmed it seems, to side with the less likely, the illogical, and the immoral???
In the meantime, good people continue to be maligned daily, and its like the fight of good and evil is raging bigger than ever, with the side of good going down.... Its literally hard, to watch the news, even the untainted news.....It is times like these when I truly miss myownworld in the forums.
It is nice to see for once, the reflection of the truth, the representation of the people of Lybia and not what the media wants us to believe. Then, if the attackers were not the Lybians who are they? Unfortunately for us they are representants of the US. Salafists who were financed by the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
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