Maybe it's me. Didn't he vote FOR the use of military force in Iraq and Afghanistan, just as he accused Ryan and the Repubs of doing (in the debate)?
It would seem like the war in Afghanistan is something that no one should have to explain.
The war in Iraq everyone voted for because the dems didn't want to get in the way of the president. They let him lead. Its something else that shouldn't really be an issue except for the fact that Bush lied about why we were going in there.
So that makes it okay that Biden lied about his vote in the debate?
Also, if that's correct, then it's a GOOD think that CONGRESS just 'followed' the President into declaring war? Shouldn't Congress be, I don't know... the ones taking responsibility for their Constitutional Responsibilities?
No! I am still furious with my spineless Democratic leaders for following Bush like sheep because they didn't want to appear weak on defense. If you recall, those who loudly opposed the war were attacked and called traitors, and our so-called leaders were more afraid of that than of sending our young people to fight in a stupid and unnecessary war.
It still pisses me off.
Hi, PP. I understand why so many voted for the wars. Based on the info they had at the time, it seemed like the right course.
Actually, there was plenty of doubt in the intelligence community that was ignored by the Bush administration because they were so hot to invade Iraq.
Sorry, I can't give people like Biden and Hillary a pass on this one. I think they knew better.
We also must remember that the Republicans labeled anyone and everyone who disagreed with invading Iraq as unAmerican and unpatriotic. The Democrats, fearing this label sheepishly followed Bush.
Yes, and I'm still waiting for the war cheerleaders to apologize for their stupidity. The majority of Americans now believe the invasion of Iraq was not worth it. I was personally called "treasonous" for voicing my opinion that the war was a mistake.
Now, we are facing a presidential election and the Republican candidate's stated foreign policy (such as it is) is no different from the warmongers who got us into that mess: immature, short-sighted, and blustery.
CBS News Poll. Nov. 6-10, 2011. "Do you think the result of the war with Iraq was worth the loss of American lives and other costs of attacking Iraq, or not?"
Republicans: Worth it - 42%, Not worth it - 49%, Unsure - 9%
Democrats: Worth it - 14%, Not worth it - 81%, Unsure - 5%
Independent: Worth it - 21%, Not worth it - 67%, Unsure - 12%
The Democrats followed Bush because they tries the same thing just a couple years earlier with the same intel. Would have looked kinda bad to go against their own words right?
P.P, no one likes fighting a war our enemies declared on us. The thing I believe we need to understand, those that are at war with the good people of the free world are hell bent on the destruction of our way of life, education for all boys and girls, women’s rights, religious freedom and so on.
The truly alarming reality of the world we live in today, to many well-meaning folks simply fail to understand our enemies will stop at nothing to make it so, or simply do not believe our self-proclaimed enemies mean to do us harm.
War is expensive, both in human life, and a society’s treasure, many do not think it is worth the cost of freedom.
What is a people to do?
Sorry, there are necessary wars and then there are stupid wars. Invading Iraq was a horrible mistake and many people in high places knew it at the time.
The war in Iraq and our entire policy in the Middle East is not for possession of oil, but control of oil, as in who gets it and who doesn't. Iraq was never a threat to us, but our big corporations wanted to control the flow of oil to both our allies and our competitors. Remember how big of a stake Dick Cheney had in Haliburton?
So, are Romney and Ryan senile or suffering from dementia?
Yes. I think they all are. But the left is always calling Romney a liar, while many talked about how "straightforward" Biden was in the debate. Sometimes I think our pols consider voters too dumb or too lazy to fact check. I'll admit, fact-checking isn't always easy, especially when it comes to numbers. One source will interpret the figures one way, while another source makes a different interpretation. In such cases, the verdict is often "partly true" or "misleading." But a pol's voting record is...well, on record, in black and white. In the debate, Biden said Ryan voted for the wars, and since, as Biden put it, the costs were "put on a credit card," they partically caused the recession. Biden then claimed that HE voted against them:
“I was there, I voted against them,” Biden continued. “I said, no, we can’t afford that.”
To me, calling him senile is akin to someone else who also said he must have been drinking before.
If he isn't senile and didn't have a drink or two before the debate, then there is only one alternative and that is he flat out boldly lied to the American people on national TV. To me he looked and acted like he had been drinking. He behaved like a belligerent drunk, whether he had been drinking or not - is undeniable. But his immature, inappropriate sometimes irrational giggling and laughing and constant unmoderated interruptions probably appealed to his immature teeny bopper mentality constituents.
Well, to be fair, Mitt acted as if he'd taken a hit of speed before the last debate. lol. I'm sure he didn't, but he sure was hyper.
I don't think he was drunk and I don't think he's senile, he's just a liar like his boss!
Welcome to American Politics. Romney has flip-flopped on every position he pretends to hold, Obama made more promises than a good fairy. None of them remember how they voted. Our Congress votes to refurbish tanks that the military doesn't want. They vote for war and change the reason for the war every few months. AND THEN we vote for them again and send them back to do it again.
So we so richly deserve the lousy gov't that we have
I agree, but what choice do we have? If I thought a third party candidate had a shot, I'd vote for him/her. We're controlled by the two-party system.
Yes we are controlled by a two party system. Just one notch below a one party system such as Communism. It's too bad third parties cannot catch on here.
I don't know about Iraq. But he didn't strike me as senile. He was sharp as a tack in his debate with Ryan.
I like what Robert Reich said after the debate. http://front.moveon.org/quick-read-robe … o.facebook
As far as Romney acting 'sped up', I thought the same thing. But he always appears hyper and rather easily provoked. I would prefer a more even-tempered President who is able to more calmly assess important situations/decisions.
Except for forgetting how he voted on 2 big issues. Otherwise, I liked how Biden engaged the audience.
I believe he did, but what does that have to do with senility? He had plenty of good company who were duped by Bush and Cheney including Hillary Clinton and nearly every Republican. My senator, Carl Levin had the wisdom to vote NO! [BTW, that's an uncharacteristically nasty question from you, Habee!]
You misunderstood, Ralph. I'm not blaming him for voting for the wars. As I've already said, I think the supporters were doing what they thought was best based on what they were told. My question was about his forgetting that he voted FOR the wars.
Whatever he said wasn't an indication of senility. I'm older than Biden, and I don't like to see that term tossed around lightly. However, much of what Ryan said was inaccurate and vague, not to mention juvenile.
I don't think anyone would accuse you of senility, Ralph. I agree that Ryan was too vague about Romney's economic plan. I still don't see, however, how a person could forget how he voted on such huge issues.
On more than one occasion before the debate Biden expressed regret for his vote in favor of invading Iraq.
"Mr. Biden is perhaps best known for his work on the Foreign Relations Committee, of which he was chairman until leaving the Senate. He has said he regrets his 2003 vote in favor of the Iraq invasion and he was a persistent and harsh critic of the Bush administration’s war conduct." NY Times.
Therefore I don't think it's accurate to say that he forgot about his votes on the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan or that he lied about it as some have said. He may have misspoken or been unclear. My interpretation is that he what he said in the debate referred to putting the cost of the wars on a credit card, not denying that his vote in favor of invading Iraq. I haven't been able to find an exact and complete quote of what he said. I'll continue to look. In any event, whatever he actually said, I doubt that he forgot about his vote or that he intended to deny that he voted for the invasion of Iraq. He's too smart and too honest for that.
Here's what Biden said:
"Here’s the full quote from the debate transcript:
" And, by the way, they talk about this Great Recession if it fell out of the sky, like, “Oh, my goodness, where did it come from?” It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, to at the same time put a prescription drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion-dollar tax cut for the very wealthy. I was there. I voted against them. I said, no, we can’t afford that."
It's not crystal clear what "them" refers to. It's plausible that he was referring to the prescription drug plan and the trillion dollar tax cut, not to his vote on the invasion of Iraq.
Ralph, read what you just wrote: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card..."
That doesn't sound to you like Biden was inferring that voting for the wars was bad, and blaming Ryan for doing so - when Biden voted for them, too? You don't find that hypocritical at all?
Yes, it's hypocritical.
I'm sure Jon Stewart could create videos of every politician debating themselves by making opposing statements at different times. Some of those videos would be much longer than others, though, wouldn't they? lol
Did you read Matt Taibbi's latest blog about Biden's debate performance? I'm sure there were plenty of viewers 'chuckling' along with him, not in disrespect, but in sheer unbelief of what was being said. Ryan talking about bipartisanship in Congress?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/bl … z29DUxFLOo
Oh i am so glad you brought this up.
I have described him as The Walking Gaffe. Maybe senility is the reason.
They accused Reagan of that and he was pretty clear in his communications.
biden intentionally attempted to keep ryan from being able to express himself ( it did not work) and to keep listeners from getting the information ryan was expressing ( it did not work)
Yeah, a third party to keep the others in line! This country is going to hell in a hand basket! Why? BOTH parties look out for no one but themselves! BOTH have great retirement packages, healthcare and god only knows what other perks we arent aware of, all at the cost of the American taxpayer! So why don't everyone in this country have health insurance? Why don't we take care of our poor, elderly, and vets? I'm sorry folks, no one party is to blame here! And if you believe one or the other is, might I suggest you get your head out of the sand! It's hard to expect EITHER party to make decisions to help the mass when it does or may affect BOTH PARTIES pocket books!
Maybe its time to get rid of the Electoral College as well? I understand it was designed to help the smaller states, but I see it as giving all the power to the "Swing States". Would it be so wrong to actually elect our President by "Popular Vote?" What do you think?
I have mixed feelings about the EC. What I hope and pray DOESN'T happen with this election is for one candidate to win the popular vote and the other to win the EC. We're already divided enough, and that would push some of the more hot-headed individuals over the edge, I'm afraid.
Just for fun, here is a radical idea to consider:)
How about we make it mandatory all U.S citizens, excluding convicted felons of course, educate themselves in the issues of the day in a manor other than watching MSNBC type propaganda, and vote in both, local and national elections.
After all, freedom is not free; we all have a responsibility as part of the republic to elect people willing to perform the duties of the office they volunteer for.
Then as a condition of their employment, make all candidates especially law school grads. Sign legally binding agreement between themselves and all the law - abiding Americans of which they serve. That for failing to do the job they signed up for, strips the law breaking, unfamiliar to the truth, jackasses that do not know what the meaning of the word is, is, of all benefits and their citizenship status and deport the rascals.
How about we make it mandatory all U.S citizens, excluding convicted felons of course, educate themselves in the issues of the day in a manor other than watching FOX NEWS type propaganda, and vote in both, local and national elections.
Hey @movingout good to hear form your, welcome to HubPages forum.
I believe we will all agree on the important stuff, everyone should educate themselves to the goings on in the world first, then vote their mind and not some constructed emotional trigger / talking point... .
There are two reasons to maintain the EC, in my opinion. More than giving the small states some power, it is better to think of it as giving rural America some weight and consideration. If the election were determined by popular vote, candidates could focus only on overwhelming promises to urban America knowing that the rural vote has little value.
The second reason is that democracy is not the person who gets the most votes win. It is the person who receives a majority of votes. There have been four elections in which the person with the most votes was not elected. In two of those elections, the candidate won states with enough electoral votes to gain the office, those being Benjamin Harrison and George W. Bush. (Bush, however, did have to take the Florida vote to the Supreme Court.) The other two, John Quincy Adams and Rutherford B. Hayes, were done in back room deals with Adams getting the majority of electoral votes with his deal, and Hayes being selected when the Democrats agreed to a deal that also ended reconstruction. (In those days, the Republicans were the progressive party.)
If it were by popular vote, however, there would have been eighteen elections in which the President would have to be selected by means other than the popular vote because no one received a majority of those votes.
Biden is definitely not senile.
He did not appear drunk to me -- a condition I'm pretty alert to.
What he did do was "double down" (beginning to hate that term) on interrupting and correcting Ryan at any and every opportunity.
It seemed to this observer that he was deliberately making up for the lost opportunities from the Obama/Romney debate. Obama let way too many false claims go by.
Joe came out swinging for the team.
I find it interesting that the right got ecstatic when Romney engaged in the same tactics.
When Romney interrupts and dominates and bullies the moderator -- he gets style points.
When Joe does it -- that's a negative.
Romney giggles inappropriately -- often.
But since it's Joe smirkin' and grinnin' up there -- that's bad.
As to his specific quote about voting for the two wars on the credit card, the quote also included seveal other votes, such as for tax cuts for the wealthy, which contributed to the deficit.
Frankly, I am not finding any fact check evidence that Biden lied about voting for Iraq and Afghanistan except on right wing sites.
So if anyone has a link on that (that is not from breitbart) please share.
It's easy to check Biden's voting record online.
SJ Res 23 - Military force in Afghanistan authorization - Sept. 14, 2001 - voted yea
H J Res 114 - Use of military force against Iraq - Oct. 11, 2002 - voted yea
S Amdt 2601 - Medicare prescription drug amendment - Nov. 17, 2005 - voted yea
http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-vote … e-biden-jr
MM, here's a link from a very liberal site:
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/12/live_fa … vp_debate/
You really need to read other web sites.
Why is that. I do read other websites.
what do you suggest. I realize that liberals H A T E Andrew Breitbart even though he is dead because he shined a light on what was happening He, like me, used to think he was a liberal before he grew up.
Biden is not only senile...he is dysfunctional. Biden has been in Washington for 30+ years because he is a good "water boy". He is the fool wllling to carry the message for those without guts to state it themselves.. In one sense, Joe has created his own "value". When elected representative sit before the American people on national television and laugh at those who challenge them; laught at those who suggest that we missed the point....laught at those, etc., etc., etc, I have a problem because I conclude that your ressponse to our problems as a nation is to laugh at them and wave your hand as if there is no problem at all. America needs to wake up.. This election is nothing about Mitt Romney's shortcomings so much as it it about an incumbent president who cannot find his rear end with both hands yet demands four more years to try. On the road we are currently on....America does not have four years left to give to Obama. ~WB
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