How can we represent ourselves as a democracy when the GOP in Ohio and Florida is exercising voter suppression? Minorities are having to wait in line for 6 hours or more to get to vote. How do you think that looks to the rest of the world? How can we promote democracy in the rest of the world when we don't even have it in our elections. This is even after the supreme court ruled against it in many states. Should voter suppression be illegal and prosecuted as a criminal act?
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c … -vote.html
Oh good, here come the lawyers.
Trust me, Obama loses Florida and its all legal.
So they're letting whites up to the front of the line?? That's terrible!
Only the minorities have to wait in line? Habee's right - that is terrible. And racist.
Who is allowing the whites to go to the head of the line?
This article says absolutely nothing about long lines for minorities or anyone being denied the right to vote. It mentions having to have valid picture i.d., but I don't find that discriminatory.
I have never seen so many conspiracy theorists as have been bred during this election season.
You know I haven't yet read many of your forums but the ones I have seen look like they were produced at a propaganda office.
Long lines mean a good voter turnout. What's wrong with that?
Try again. I voted in Florida last week. Hint, I don't like Romney at all. There is no supression of votes here, just the usual incompetent stuff. Find a new drum to pound, brother.
Oh please. It is EVERYONE waiting in line. There is no voter suppression, just poor management at poll places.
Perhaps if you are truly so outraged at voter suppression, your anger and suspicion is better directed at those interesting voting machines that are only counting votes for Obama, even if Romney is chosen in Florida, NC and Ohio.
Voting machines that changes votes = not voter supression.
That's election rigging.
There's a difference.
Oddly enough, I live in the most populous state in the nation -- by a wide margin.
Haven't read about any problems with long lines at polling places.
Haven't heard of our governor trying in any way to deny citizens their right to vote.
Dream on Sassy: You are in denial of what is really happening. Anybody can post a picture of a line of people.
And apparently, anyone can post a link to an article that doesn't support their OP in any way.
Motown: Sorry I'm not sure whether you are criticizing my comment or Sassy's. Can you explain in clearer terms?
Motown: After reading your other comments, I think I understand what you are saying. Here is a CNN article from today. http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/04/opinion/h … index.html
Please look at the three videos.
I'm criticizing the argument in general. First, whether or not I agree with you, the link you posted is to an article that does not support your argument. It says nothing about long lines at polls. It says nothing about minorities and the suppression of THEIR right to vote. I think the OP is pretty much just a means of antagonizing those with whom you may disagree.
Also, I personally find nothing wrong with requiring picture i.d. from a registered voter. In essence, I suppose I disagree with you, although I in no way mean to be disrespectful. But, here's the facts. Today is election day. We can kick, scream, throw fits, throw insults and post furiously about how everyone on every side is trying to be sneaky to win. At the end of the day, someone will win the election, and every single word posted in the forums about it will ultimately mean little.
Just go vote. That's the best way to let the world know how you feel.
It was to support my last statement about the supreme court ruling. This is what I wrote: " This is even after the supreme court ruled against it in many states. Should voter suppression be illegal and prosecuted as a criminal act?: "
That's why the link is about the Supreme Court Ruling.
I see your point, in that case. But, I still don't feel that it supports your initial argument.
Anyhow, I don't really feel compelled to argue for or against your opinion. I just wanted to clarify what I thought was a bit unclear.
Thanks for being so civil in your response.
Just go vote. That's the best way to let the world know how you feel.
Voted most reasonable post.
Just get out and vote everyone.
Long lines at the polls in Florida, Cleveland and elsewhere have been widely reported.
The first one is from lines in Florida, the second from lines in Ohio. Again, it is EVERYONE waiting in line. No one is going through and allowing all the white people to move to the head of the line. You can google "voters wait in line in Florida (Ohio)" and then click images.
Again, I see you have no issue with this:
Everybody needs to look at today's Yahoo article about what is going on with the voting in several key areas. It's a total mess!!
Hurricane Sandy devastated NJ, but the polls will all be open and electricity has been restored. Some voted by absentee ballot because they were unsure if the power would be up. Gov. Chris Christie has said if different arrangements for voting must be taken in South Jersey, he will call in the Nat'l.Guard to be sure every person gets their chance to vote. Nobody should have to be waiting on a line for 6 or 8 hours to vote, we don't even have to do that and we have been in a State of Emergency for a week now. It's just Republicans blocking minorities and others who will likely vote for Obama. Romney, the religious one, never inquired if our state needed anything, oh, like a prayer, or money. How will the hypocritic R's rebuild their party now that nutjobs from the far right took it over? George Bush and other prominent R's won't touch Romney with a 10 ft. pole. Lindsey Grahmn was lamenting that R's would have to change, because they lost most Blacks, Hispanics, young people, old people, and there's no one left to alienate. It's not just a white man's world anymore.
Interesting though, because high voter turn out is usually a boon for the Democrats. Regardless of race.
What is the excuse for cutting the number days people could vote in advance?
We never see line ups like this in Canada. The longest I might have ever had to line up was 15 minutes. But... to be fair we have a much smaller population.
I'm not going to lie to you, I see no reason to have early voting at all. Especially the way it's been adopted in many states. There is absolutely no reason to have a month long election day. I believe early voting should be restricted to military personnel, those with impending medical procedures or those with disabilities which would make it difficult to vote on Election Day. This idea that we shouldn't have to be inconvenienced at all to vote is absurd. Wait, I want to go to the beach that day, let me vote when I want attitude that prevails.
What ticks me off though is someone who comes in and says how the governors and secretaries of state should be in jail, but has nothing to say about the questionable voting machines which only register votes for Obama, nothing to say about voter intimidation in Philly by the Black Panthers, etc.
Can you post a link to what the black panthers are doing? i would like to see it.
I posted a pic from the 2008 election further up. They are there again today, however, were already warned about the billy clubs and weapons they brought with them in 2008, so at least there is that. Further, in PA there is a law that no one is to be within 50 feet of the polling place. Clearly being ignored in Philly. I will try to find a pic of today, it might be a little early yet, all I could find was a video.
This video implies it could happen again. It is not an actual act of anything.
No the beginning of the video is from this morning. As I stated, they are there again today, without the weapons though.
Or there is this little tidbit in my state as well:
http://twitchy.com/2012/11/06/gop-inspe … ng-places/
A judge has just ordered they be re-instated:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11 … officials/
Don't you love how quiet it got after you posted that. I had been looking at that and considering the hypocrisy........
Yeah. Voter intimidation and suppression tactics are cool with many of them. AS long as it is intimidation of GOP voters and the suppression works to discount Republican votes.
Apparently there are some Black Panthers at places in Ohio and there are reports of ex-Navy Seals going over to keep peace.
When I googled it, the only links I could find are from right wing sites. I'll wait until it's picked up by national news before I pass judgement.
Did you see the caravans with lynched Obama... Unless you can provide any actual proof that one side does it more than the other it's nothing but the usual, pointless bull.
I actually did not see that, Josak. Anything i google on it comes up a group on a college campus back in 2008.
Don't faint or anything but I agree with you. That is entirely my point. Shenanigans are going on with both sides but many here are trying to condemn only one side. If you are truly against such things, then you should be denouncing ALL of it. Not just what you think is working against you.
People having to wait in line is NOT voter suppression. I had to wait in line and I wasn't suppressed.
In Florida, where I reside, the truth is that our Republican Governor has done everything possible to limit the ability of the lower socioeconomic classes to vote. For instance, he shortened the early voter days considerably. Sunday, after church, when most Blacks who work during the week vote, is no longer a voting day., etc. I find all of this interesting because I get my ballot mailed to my home weeks before any election. I don't have to show anything...no ID, no nothing...I fill out the ballot and mail it in or carry it to a county office where I hand it in. So why is anybody anywhere being asked to produce ID! I can see a voters ID (which is always requested when I vote in person and always has been), but many people don't have driver's licenses, etc. And by the way, I read recently that the GOP is under investigation for paying people to register people as Republicans and then encouraging them to vote the ticket. And yes, I did see the Black Panther video from 2008...it was two men, one of whom lived in the building and was told to stop what he was doing, and the other was arrested. Two people doing something is not an indication that an entire political party is trying to intimidate voters. Most people pushed right past the two guys, went inside and voted anyhow.
Really peoplepower? No request for links to support his claims? BTW make sure they are not from any of those left leaning sites either.
But, they were scary looking black guys...
So, the shenanigans on both sides will cancel each other out. Democracy will win.
Sassy: Ask and you shall receive: http://www.upworthy.com/shocking-video- … scheme?g=2
I know you are going to say it's from MSNBC, but you can't make this stuff up!
Wait, are we back to that one comment from one person thing again? Didn't someone just tell me that 2 people doing something doesn't equal anything? lol
And you're right. MSNBC is the most biased news source on the planet.
You really don't see your own bias here do you? You discount stories because "all I see are right leaning sources" and then expect an MSNBC report to be accepted? Uh huh.
It's alright. It will all be over late this evening.
Everyone have a safe Election Day.
"MSNBC is the most biased news source on the planet."
Close but no cigar.
Personally, I have never seen MSNBC. I rely on international news sources... much more fair.
I guess there ain't much going on in Canada. I never hear anything about Canada on the news. That would be a good thing I guess, "No news is good news."
Fox News? They have got to have their finger on the pulse on the Black Panthers.
Tip of the day - never follow links left by kooks on internet forums. Your computer will start deleting files, or your Google clicks will be robbed by ex-KGB agents from a basement in Estonia.
It's video. It's on youtube. Feel free to google your own pictures. You won't of course, because you'd rather sit on your soap box and declare the GOP voter suppressors and racists rather than see the truth.
Sassy: So you believe Fox new is a credible source...right? And you also believe there is no voter suppression, even though I presented the latest videos and evidence that there is. If there is, should it be unconstitutional, regardless of which party is perpetrating it?
Do you believe both parties are involved?
Fox is as reliable as any other source. They all make mistakes, but in this case the Black Panthers ARE at polling places.
I find it's usually better to investigate claims rather than summarily dismiss them because I don't like the source.
Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
" the Black Panthers ARE at polling places."
All three of them? Don't they have a right to be at polling places?
of course, and to quote you "everybody has civil rights"
Not everybody has the right to stand around polling places, you apparently don't know U.S. laws! But I'm sure you will tell me how wrong I am.
Oh, ok, so when you said that "everybody has civil rights" that was incorrect?
I think they may. The GOP is sending out armies of poll watchers, which some fear are discouraging voters whom they think are likely Democrat voters.
Early voting also helps people who have to work long hours and/or multiple jobs. It's not an inconvenience if you can't take time off to vote without being fired or if taking two hours off to vote would result in you not being able to cover rent and groceries that month.
There are all kinds of reasons why people might be more than just 'inconvenienced' by having to vote on a specific day. I had to vote by mail one year myself.
Back in the day, Election Day was a holiday. The majority of businesses and schools were closed, just for that reason. Which is how it should be, IMO. As stated, I have no issue with early voting as it stands in states such as Virginia, where you have to provide a reason. Just arbitrary early voting.
In the longest running democracy n the world?
In the last Superpower?
Democracy delayed is democracy denied.
CNN had a great article the other day (written by a Canadian, of course), explaining how these types of election day voting shenanigans are mostly uncommon in other western democracies because they have impartial 3rd party elections bodies that overseas the process.
After the dimple chad affair and other issues in Florida, you would think things would change.
6 hours in line is not good for democracy Voting shouldn't be such an ordeal.
It's not like your population increased 10 fold over the last few years. Organizers know how many people are eligible to vote, and they should make sure there are enough polling booths and administrative people on hand so the process goes smoothly.
Americans have been voting for over over 200 years.. you should have the process down pat by now.
You know, I just imagine we "Americans" can handle our own electoral affairs, thank you.
If there weren't lines it would indicate no one was voting.
ah I see.. I'm not an American so my opinion doesn't matter....
Fair enough, since you are an American, tell us, how long do you think it is acceptable for people in certain districts to wait in line?
7 hours.... 10 hours?.... until hell freezes over?
No your opinion matters.
I can even handle the condescension.
If people want to vote they will be there......and they will get to vote.
NY Times 11-4-12
"There were long lines to vote in many states. In Florida, where Republican officials cut back the number of days of early voting this year, there were waits of more than four hours at some polling places. There were also waits of up to four hours in Prince William County, Va., election officials said. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/us/po … 12.html?hp
So how does that affect one party over another? Wouldn't all voters be exposed to the same conditions and specifically a wait in line?
Several Republican governors have taken actions designed to suppress likely Democratic voters some of which have been declared unconstitutional by the courts. For example, Ohio reduced the early voting period and I believe Florida did also. This created long lines in urban, Democrat districts, and less so in suburban GOP districts. Voter I.D. requirements designed to make voting difficult for the elderly and anyone who doesn't have a driver's license or a birth certificate or passport. Be honest; its quite clear what the purpose of these actions was. Voter fraud had nothing to do with these actions. Fortunately, it didn't work, and it may actually have boomeranged, increasing the turnout for Obama. People who are willing to wait in line for several hours in order to vote must be pretty excited and determined about exercising their right to vote.
Roundup of voter irregularities.
And a pretty cool story of a woman voting as she's in labor. What a trooper!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ele … post-15577
@ Repairguy, you're right I don't understand, I thought we were talking about poling booths. Do the Black Panthers have a right to stand outside of polling booths?
If they are about to go in and vote! Nobody has the right to loiter around polling places unless they are involved in the process. I don't have any idea if the black Panther is involved or not, that's why I asked.
Fair enough, but they are politically motivated, are they not ? Perhaps they have voted, were waiting to vote, or have told people they will be there when they vote to support them. Either way, we all are speculating.
I read today that the U.N. observers sent to the U.S. to watch our voting for fraud couldn't believe photo ID's aren't required here. I mean, you only need them to cash a check, get a hotel room, buy alcohol or cigarettes, fly on an airplane and a myriad of other situations. Why aren't discrimination lawsuits filed in those situations by these left-leaning legal groups? Because fraud is obviously going on and most Americans know it. No one is being denied the opportunity to vote if they really make an attempt to do so.
I don't know how it is your state, but in California, if you are a registered voter that means you can be found in the registration book at your assigned place of voting. Once they find your name and address, you enter your address a second time and sign your name to the registered roll. Why would you need an ID? The documented cases of voter fraud are so minimal that it appears as if this is just another way to control the vote.
One more thing. In California, we have a voters bill of rights that is not only on the back of the sample ballot, but is posted at the polling site.
How about to prove you are who you say you are?
If you are registered to vote and you are in the rolls, why do you have to prove who you are. It would takes hundreds of people voting as someone else to influence the vote. Also if the real person goes to vote and some else has signed as them don't you think that would raise a flag when the real person went to sign in?
You're such a great progressive voice PP. Great argument.
Also, I'm white and I had to wait three hours to vote.
Most of the long lines were caused by unexpectedly high turnout that poll workers were not ready for. At my precinct they were able to supplement the machines with paper ballots, which helped a little bit, but not every precinct was able to find them (I don't know how many were prepped in machine-only states).
It was worth it.
Good for you. True enough that many of the problems were caused by high voter turnout, but some were due to calculated actions and requirements designed to suppress likely democratic voters--the elderly, minorities, students, et al.
Ok he won.You can drop the talking points now.
Those are well-documented facts, not "talking points." How come you can't bring your self to admit what happened?
Oh I admit what happened. We now know who the true one percenters are. Those of us in the "flyover states".
No, you are the dupes of the Koch brothers, Karl Rove and the extremist, evangelical social issues Christians.
It's a true conspiracy fabricated by all radical conservatives. We are all insane. We have arsenals in our basements. Our necks are red. We have millions packed away in our grandmother's trunk.
Eric, please read this article and tell us whether you disagree and why.
"In Virginia and Texas some voters waited in line for four hours. In Pennsylvania, there were inappropriate demands for official photo IDs. Recorded calls went out to residents of Florida saying misleadingly that they had until 7 p.m. “tomorrow” to vote. And in Ohio, there seemed to be an unusually high number of provisional ballots, causing concern that they might not all get counted...."
More: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/us/po … oting.html
I want to thank all of you for a very spirited forum. I think we have heard from both sides and that's a good thing. There were a few discussions that were heated, but nothing that really got out of line. Now it's time to see how congress is going to vote on upcoming issues. But that's for another forum.
Do you really believe that a precinct's inability to deal with a flood of voters represents actions by the GOP to supress voters? You can make that claim and ignore what went on in Philadelphia where they physically threw the GOP observers out of the polling place and replaced them with black panther (intentionally not capitalized!) members? Pleazzzzze! I have stood in long voting lines before when the turn out was high but I did not blame the wait on the Democrat governor of the state. All candidates benefit when voter turnout is high. The more bodies that get processed, the longer the lines....same thing happens in the local cafeteria on a busy day but I have not heard the patrons yelling that it is some kind of conspiracy on the part of the GOP. ~WB
The GOP voter suppression efforts are well documented.
" Jim Greer, former Chair of the Florida Republican Party, went on Al Sharpton's show to boldly cast the nearly transparent curtain aside from the ugly face of the Wizard of Florida. In Florida, as in other states, it's not the Democrats' imaginations that are creating voter suppression issues; rather, it's the systemic and predictable way in which Republicans are trying to discourage people likely to vote Democrat. They do this by creating arbitrary and unevenly enforced laws to create confusion and ultimately discourage the other guy's voters.
"After an electoral spanking last cycle that was largely the backlash to neoconservative overreaches in the Bush Jr. years, Republicans were reflecting on how to deal with the surge of new and minority voters. "I sat in on many meetings where it was discussed how to make sure what happened in 2008, when Obama brought out the college-aged voters, the minority voters, never happened again," said Jim Greer.
"Greer talked about how he was invited into many discussions as the head of the GOP in Florida, so he knows where some particularly rotten bodies are buried. There were discussions that early voting was going against Republicans, and so they should shorten it to prevent African American churches from organizing to bring out the vote for early voting. Greer had even given sworn deposition that there were discussions on suppression, but never once in his 3 1/2 years as GOP Chair of Florida had he seen a meeting on voter fraud; he went so far as to call it a "marketing tool of radical Republicans" in state government.
"Every bit of evidence is predictably falling into a narrative that these laws are the Republicans doing their best to discourage certain demographics of voters, and not a reaction to a legitimate problem. Some of the laws have been bad enough that the courts have struck them down, with stunning examples of Latino and African American disenfranchisement and voter registration discouragement attempts coming from Florida.
"These measures collectively form a shady, underhanded attempt at disenfranchisement that is poorly hidden at times, but then there are others when Republicans actually celebrate it in public. Michael Turzai, Republican Representative in Pennsylvania, said that voter ID laws were one of the factors handing Romney the election in Pennsylvania, and they are "done."
Michael Turzai "Voter I.D. which is going to allow Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania--Done!!"
There WERE some irregularities in some places.
But if a precinct has four voting machines and they're suddenly getting more voters in an hour than they normally get in half a day and they don't have paper ballots prepped...or even if they do...there will be long lines.
That is what happened at my precinct. I really don't know how much higher the turnout was than normal.
One thing I did find out, though. MY precinct...which is a rich, mostly white neighborhood...got paper ballots to supplement the machines (the poll workers had some problems getting people to use them, so they didn't help as much as they could).
A precinct not very far away in a poor, mostly black neighborhood? They didn't get paper ballots.
Take it how you wish, but it happened.
They only had six machines so, yes, it WAS horrible...the lines were even longer than at our precinct.
There's a campaign to do away with the machines and I lean towards supporting it. Computers glitch. Paper ballots can be pulled out and checked manually if need be.
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