It is very quite tonight here at the hub, tomorrow is a historic day for us all. My question to you tonight...What does Freedom mean to you?
What's happening tomorrow? lol. Sorry, but I don't think we'll see any big changes either way. Life will go on as usual, pretty much. I'm pi$$ed about the amount of money spent on the election. I thought it was around $2 billion, but CNN said with indirect spending included, it was more like $6 billion. What will we have to show for all that money? Gridlock - no matter who wins. It doesn't look like Obama will get a mandate if he wins, unless the polls are in grave error. I can think of a lot better uses for the dough.
The funny thing about that.. is.. how much of that money went specifically to try and avoid higher taxes... I would love someone to someday do the research on whether or not that money comes to the same amount the higher taxes would come to.. and if not.. how much less...
I have always thought politicians shouldn't be paid. Like, why? Why would we need to donate all this money to them? The money doesn't change their policies and plans, or who they are and what they believe. It shouldn't change their likeability. The money just makes them famous; what a popularity contest! I would like to see a candidate winning simply on their policies and plans, not how much money or media exposure they got. The guy with more money gets more exposure and gets more famous and gets more votes. That's how it works!
I know this is a serious question that deserves an answer.. but.. like everything else in my head.. it probably needs a hub of it's own to fully express.... on the simplest level it's.. "the ability to do whatever I want whenever I want." This of course can fall into conflict with community and freedom vs community always needs to be weighed.... lest we end up like the line from the song "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose."
Bob, good point I thought about writing this as a hub and then decided, to me' it would be much more interesting to see as many views as possible and hope to find a common thread....The freedoms vs community point you made, makes it neccessary to state that too much freedon exists in the life of one, when it begins to infringe upon the freedoms of another...I think this important point you made here, shows the root reason for all of the strife today...To have equal freedoms should be the goal
To me - freedom means the ability to make my own choices, set my own goals, and profit or fail from my chosen actions.
That's why I'm voting for Romney. At the deepest level of my psyche, I want to control my own life to the greatest extent possible. That's freedom to me.
How much freedom, exactly, does the patriot act and NDAA give you? Mitt Romney supports those.
I don't like that Romney supports those, but it's the lesser of two evils. Freedom also directly relates to business regulation, taxation and market controls.
I will never understand how wanting to force women to give birth if they get pregnant and make laws dictating who you can marry is a lesser imposition than small increases in market regulations and tax.
I agree, to me my freedom of personal choices, who to marry, how to worship, my private OB/GYN visits, these things are clearly nobody's busisness but mine...However regulations and taxes are for the benefit of the country as a whole...my choices to marry or worship etc only affects me...This has always confused me...
What about the freedom of the unborn human?
I understand your point, I disagree that a fetus has yet to become a human being...a fetus can not survive outside of the mother's body, unless we have learned to grow people in labs and if we have I am not privy to that information...I am also always curios as to what the father of said fetus will be "forced," to do if abortions become illegal...Also, will men be able to be arrested if they do not control their sperm, being that it is the "secret ingredient,"...what consequences will the father's have to pay...I never hear this side of the discussion, do you?
I like it that you added that part about the father, Tammy.....If men were the gender to give birth, we wouldn't even be having these discussions. Or...perhaps women would rule business, politics, even the world while men would "stay in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant" (to quote that ridiculous saying of insensitive males).
I replied to this earlier, but (for some strange reason) my post disappeared. I enjoyed what you wrote about the father's role in pregnancy. I can't help but believe that if men were the gender to give birth, their attitudes about pregnancy would be vastly different!
As I see it a zygote is not yet an independent or even thinking being as such it does not share the same rights (obviously I oppose late term abortions) I don't actually believe that abortion outside of rape/medical issues is moral BUT the imposition on the freedom of another person incurred by forcing them to give birth is more immoral.
Well said Josak..and unconstitutional as well...I also do not personally agree with abortion, and I believe the time frame should maybe even be shortened to the first 6 weeks or so, but the government is not suppose to play the role of moral guardian, this is the place of the Church, and Seperation of Church and State, as per our constitution, should be upheld.
I personally don't like associating with evils in my every day live, so I don't see why I should vote for an evil to rule over me because he's slightly not-as-evil as the other evil.
Being able to make personal choices without government interference ie. who I marry and whether I want a child etc.
Apparently the republican understanding of freedom is pay less taxes because they oppose any right to a choice they disagree with.
Do you not think choices you make in the market are personal choices too?
Not in the same way, I don't feel that taxes or slightly higher taxes affect my freedom, I don't feel that workplace safety regulation does either. On second thought no, I have never felt that my freedom was being unfairly affected by market regulation.
I fnd this interesting, you and I agree on many things, as I have seen your comments in forums, Howard's above comment is a representation of the conservative ideology...if we strip away the term "personal" from our meanings, or if Howard added the word "personal" before business and choices, we would all basically share the same ideas of freedom....
It is interesting that an entire nation is divided by one word....I believe freedom is the right to make our decisions about everything, the freedom to fail and succeed at every level; which hinges on the freedom to learn and live and love...I believe all freedoms are in direct coorelation to responsibilty. I have raised a lot of children, and their freedoms were always contingent upon their responsibilities..as citizens, I believe paying taxes is a simple and basic responsibility, I mean you get what you pay for in this world...so paying more for American made products, or paying a little higher tax for the best roadways and bridges, etc., these seem to me to be basic responsibilities of being a citizen in the United States of America.To me Freedom + Choices...the more choices we have as citizens, the more free we are as people
It's interesting that you say "unfairly affected" - are you suggesting that there is a 'fair' way to affect freedom? If so, in what circumstances?
Yes I think that there are fair limitations of freedom and limitations that really should exist, for example laws against violence, rape etc. limit what choices people can make but that is a positive given the situation.
China is even worse. Thank God you are here. Or, are you?
I was wondering, can I marry my dog if I want to?
Snarkly, I wouldn't care if you married your big toe, as long as you were a law abiding productive citizen of the US who pays there taxes...but thats's just me
I did say "who I marry" not what the issue with a dog is a marriage is a contract between two parties and the dog can't consent so marriage isn't really a possibility.
Yes I am in the US.
Freedom can mean a great number of things, this is why I prefer to use the term 'liberty', which is your self, your actions and your property having freedom from aggressive violence. That's much more specific and the only form of freedom one can consistently apply across a society.
Neither of these candidates respect liberty in the slightest.
Freedom doesn't enslave.
Election Day is here, finally! Enjoy it, however you vote.
We just see it differently that's all...A choice to you is a life to another. I could never imagine being in that person's position having to make that decision. Your choice, decision or outcome is between you and your God, that's all. We have all seen the failure of politics when personal medical decisions must be made...and when those moments come I wouldn't be consulting my congressman or President.
I was wondering, do you support capital punishment?
I'll give you a kinda twisted answer...As a medical provider we are bound by the Hippocratic Oath, not legally per se, and a physician is a physician 24/7/365. So it is written to "practice medicine ethically and honestly".
I just feel that there are certain topics or areas that have no right to be politicize. I don't need to declare where I stand, and hate it all you want, but we all want to know is it a "Yes" or a "No" and quite simply neither can be the right answer. Somethings we face are bigger than all of us and don't suffer zealots and fools that tell you otherwise.
Every 4 years or so I raise my right arm and swear to: Protect and Defend the......
Abortion, capital punishment, etc is the law of the land (where it applies) and I will protect those laws with my life. When serving in Afghanistan we treated everyone...Taliban and their friends included. All human life is sacred and man is a awful judge of who shall live and who shall die.
I have yet to met a woman, who chose to have an abortion, tell me they were 100% without doubt comfortable with their decision...How could they be. I believe that nearly every person abhors the idea of abortion, but will fight for your right to have that choice; and with revenge and hate put aside...No one can honestly believe that killing as punishment is right.
There are but a few things in this world where failure is not option...ever.
Capital punishment and abortion are two of them, and you don't get a second try. There are those rare moments in life when faced with decision, we stutter and pause...knowing that the outcome will be unbearable. But we still must act...I refuse to pass judgement and condemn those who must say "yes or no" in those moments. I have to remind myself that His will, not mine will be done...and it really sucks sometimes.
Does that make sense?
Sorry this is so long, but after all that, my answer is NO!
But, that's just me and I can't be the citizen of the world...I pick my battles with caution, not out of fear, but out of respect for the consequences of my actions. Take care.
We are all doomed! Doomed I say!
Actually, next week at this time, it will be all about Thanksgiving.
As for freedom, the turkeys are signing petitions as we speak. But it will be to no avail...
Not in my house, I support the turkey's right not to be eaten.
In quick reference to another matter, I am taking your advice and am composing a masterpiece for them.
Excellent...I wonder what vultures taste like...that would seem so much more appropriate...
Freedom to me is recognizing that I am a citizen of this world.
No man (or woman) is an island.
We all have a responsibility to each other.
Depriving anyone else of their freedom does not increase mine.
It decreases my humanity.
I say this after too many years of living like queen baby and not even realizing how friggin' selfish that was.
I got my big girl panties on -- finally!
Love it! One of my all time favorite sayings, I have raised 3 girls and have a 4 yr old who has already heard me say this,lol
I so believe that, Tammy!
Best poster I've seen today*
*Thusfar. If/when GreekOne shares his victory pic, that will trump (NOT Donald!) all, I've no doubt!
Love it! Wish I had a biilboard of it to set up at my "red state" of TN polls...I wish the WOMEN who actually are voting Romney because of the "economy," would have seen the same research we did...well we sure tried, and sometime, probably after midnight, we will finally know...
I say we vote in Michelle Obama for two more terms after this one coming up for President Barack.
I would, I doubt she will run, but you never know....
We loved, and love MO in Britain, as much as BO if not more. When she was last here she gave a really inspirational speech to young women from poorer backgrounds about aspiring to go to Oxbridge universities. This came at a time when our current leader (I use that term loosely) talked about how multiculturalism had failed.
If Barrack and Michelle were up for election here, they'd probably win by a landslide.
. . . God forbid.
I think it's amazing how you can be so right about crony-capitalism and the global baking cartels and then put your blinders on when anybody left of centre starts speaking.
Repeat after me: Barack and Michelle Obama are not my friends - they are puppets of the NWO - they are in the pay of big business - they are war-mongering tyrants . . .
Really? If they were truly in pay of big business, why have big business gone out of their way to discredit them, vilify them. Why has Rupert Murdoch seen fit to slam Obama? Actions speak so much louder than words. I don't like the war scenarios, Innersmiff, truly I don't. But I'd rather see sanctions then bombs.
Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers do not represent the entirety of big business - Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan are huge contributors (their endorsement is absolutely necessary to get anywhere in politics), the Rockerfeller foundation, Microsoft and let's not forget Soros, all ultimately controlled by the same powers that control the mainstream conservative right. It's an act of playing forces against each other to present the illusion of freedom of choice. Rigorous analysis of both the left and the right's policies reveals only superficial differences.
Hey, with Obama, you get two for the price of one: sanctions and bombs. Obama hasn't stopped bombing countries since he took office. And let's not forget he has been facilitating torture and detainment without trial in his expansion of Guantanamo bay, invading countries without congressional approval (Libya) and undermining foreign governments by financing and arming terrorist cells.
But then again, Michelle is a nice lady, so maybe none of that matters
Rupert Murdoch is the propaganda machine of FoX, and I have read of his genocidal efforts towards the aborigines of Australia, The Koch Brothers are the financiers(not the only, of course) of the far right agenda. I do not believe they and the rest are controlled by the powers that be but ARE the powers that be...all with different talents representing different aspects of the right agenda. I do believe they are all basically an aristocratic class and that our government has become or are fast becoming a facade and that freedoms may be illusions...Obama has actually not expanded Guantanamo Bay but decreased by either 30% or 60%, I would have to find that again, He also did many "things," around a non-working Congress and had up till now avoided a third world war. The Muslim Brotherhood has actually been known to be the freedom fighters, as I have read in magazines from abroad, actually winning by election, and last I heard making plans to stop the bloodshed in Syria...I do not pretend to be a foriegn affairs expert, or any other kind of expert, but in my own research, I have seen Obama to have made great stides to the 2012 agenda of the UN, he has increased oil production and exports of oil and cut imports of oil, all the while fighting for greener, cleaner energies as evidenced by his stimulus money for wind and solar energies. He has used drone action which in my personal opinion is a mitigation of human life...He has also shown to be much more attuned to the welfare of all people by his policies to grow a middle class, manufacturing; industry is the key to this measure, and the graph has a sready upward curve in this segment of the BLS...he has said he would make incentive for businesses to grow American jobs...I would say tarrifs on imports and tax deductions for those staying in our country to be the perfect balance to achieve this goal...I agree that we have a lot to fight for to get back to the points of our constitution, however in an ever changing and dangerous mideast homeland security will need room to expand..not a perfect system, but as in any business or policy the kinks must be worked out along the way.
Romney however, is a far cry from caring about growing a middle class, saving manufacturing; industry for American jobs, and not to mention dispelling "freedoms," of women that I am not too happy about...In my opinion, I OWN my body...But, that's just me
I've addressed all these things on other threads so I'll keep it short.
Clearly your 'research' hasn't had the same rigour toward your own side as it has to the right otherwise you would know that to say there is no greater power than the Koch brothers and Murdoch is patently ridiculous. Again, what about Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Kissinger and Soros? Do they play no part in proceedings at all?
As far as foreign policy is concerned, you're simply assuming that everything done out there is a good thing. To be pithy, UN intervention in the middle-east has been an absolute disaster, resulting in the deaths of millions of innocent people. These are direct results of militaristic intervention - ever heard of 'blowback'?. I don't know whether the west or the Muslim Brotherhood are 'making plans' to stop bloodshed or not but they better get on with it - everything they've been doing so far demonstrates the opposite. And you're not going to do a good persuasive job on me by arguing for the expansion of the DHS (look up 'Libertarian' in the dictionary).
Economics? Forget it. The middle-class can not grow through government, it can only grow through a free market based on a strong currency backed by real assets - I bet Obama has never even heard of this concept, if he did he would know that 'stimulus' and subsidies are counter-productive and benefit only special interests.
I haven't gone into nearly enough detail, but I'm too tired to deal with so many untruths in one post tonight.
I did not list Goldman ,JP Morgan, I said "the rest of them," so they were implied...Rockefeeler, Kissinger..top crust of the Aristocracy, no arguement...My only concern in the mideast is the responsibility we hold to protect Isreal, however, we can not possibly stand by and let alliances be formed to outpower the rest of the world...I never said government grows middle class, but policy shaped to lower a middle class tax burden and bring in jobs that have always supported the middle class of this country are the Obama policies...Romney policy is the same as Bush, a tired old lie that you give corp.'s tax breaks and the money trickles down, please, that is to benefit the special interest groups...stimulus saved this country from complete demise, and always has, creating a system where people can have nice paying jobs and consume will bring the economy back and the debt down...the counter-productive subsidies are the ones being paid to large corporations and oil companies, and your right, that does not grow anything but greed. Have a good evening
Innersmith, JP Morgan et al donated THREE times more to the Romney campaign then they did to the Obama campaign, neither candidate can prevent donations being made, but what does that say about who the banking cartels feel would best represent THEIR interests?
Obama met with complete obstruction, in addition to some legal technicalities, when he attempted to close Gitmo as he had promised. I hate war just like you, and I don't like the drones either, but the way I see it, the US (after Bush) and this is not aimed at citizens, had a dreadful reputation around the world. The invasion of Iraq and Af has very much angered the Arab world, (rightfully so) and the west including us, has a made a whole load of enemies. The US is the target of many terrorists groups, how does Obama balance this? As the President, he has to put the lives of his armed forces before any other, he sends in drones. He as also done everything in his power to move away from dependency on foreign oil (a major factor in war)
He's imposed sanctions on Iran because they fund Hezbollah, they appear to be working. I believe he also done this so he can later say to Israel that Hezbollah has been crippled financially, therefore, you need to get back around the negotiating table with Palestine. The cartels, as Israel, would just love to bomb the living day lights out of Iran- but Obama stands in their way.
I think Obama, four years ago, was a little naive but well intentioned. Now, he's learnt a fair bit, he is only thing standing between us and world war 111.
Freedom to me means the opposite of chains. Freedom from slavery. Freedom from deceit. Freedom from famine, Freedom from futility. Freedom from captivity. Free. The freedom to live a peaceful meaningful, safe and rewarding life day to day. That's freedom. The freedom to chose a burger if I want and not be trapped into eating grain or worse. Freedom is my most important right. Without freedom I am a slave. A captive, a prisoner. Let freedom ring.
To answer your question...Freedom:
We can never fully be free, unless we live as hermits. With a society full of individuals, there needs to be regulations put forth to enforce and protect the freedom of others, and at the same time, making us less-free.
The question is how large we need these regulations to be. I think we Americans have the capability of managing our own lives, without interfering in others; we just need to be given the chance to succeed ourselves. The more rules, regulations, and mandates there are, the less free we truly are. My vote went to a candidate in favor of small government.
I'll just leave this here; $6 billion dollars spent on campaigning, and NOTHING changed. Same president, same parties in the senate and congress.
Way to go America! I can think of some better ways to spend $6 billion...can you?
Yes I can, Like pay down the deficit, this was a disgusting waste of money especially in our struggling economy...I think the lobbying and super pacs need to be made illegal, abuse of money because of greed leads to an imbalance of power and creates a deterant to democracy.
I think any leftover campaign money needs to be sent to charities or Sandy relief. Or something.
It is sickening...They spend all this money, and a lot of it is DONATIONS. Why would Romney or Obama need MORE MONEY? We all know how much the president makes, and we all know Romney is pretty well off too. It's too bad that it takes having money to get noticed as a politician. I want campaign ads to go away, campaign cold-calling to go away, and for networks to sponsor the debates for FREE, and to just send out the voter's pamphlet. We don't need to spend all this extra money to try and sway voters, and make the "other guy" look bad. Jeeze. You can do that for free on Facebook (and they have).
I find it incredibly ironic, though, that nothing whatsoever changed.
I agree, Sandy would be the place to have all the left over funds to used effictively...hopefully the resolve of Americans will change, and there was a clear message sent, that we the people are sick of the gridlock, so maybe they will try harder to work on bipartisan terms, the congress should be more willing as well as the GOP, since they will be looking forward to 2016
Yeah. I find it pretty sad that 50% of the country voted for Obama, and 50% did not (48% Romney, 2% other). I'm talking popular votes here; pretty sad that only 50% of the voting population is represented in the choice of president.
Something needs to change. 50% shows a great divide. And that's just of the people who actually DID vote; in my county, only 46% (!!!) of registered voters, voted. And that's just the people who are registered to vote, of what percentage that is of people eligible to become voters, I cannot say. So, 50% of registered voters, voted, of lets say 80% of all people eligible to become voters...I stink at fractions and stuff, but I can tell you the results are pretty pathetic.
It does show great division, and that is our job as citizens to make change. It is important to note that our ageing baby boomer poulation and our growth in ethnic groups as well as a very active youth are probably the bones of this great divide...Romney won among men, Obama won among women, youth, civil rights activist, and minorities...The world around us is changing, and we will need to grow or be left behind...
We can do it (with open hearts). Don't be haters. Don't be pouters. Don't let yourself be saturated with derisive, divisive bile from agitated agitators on Fox News. Our president is on your side. Hold him up an support his efforts. The effort to keep him from a second term was more than a waste. Try something new.
Yes we can! America is a confederation of regions and localities. We all need to get more involved in our communities and public schools. Why wait for the federal government? Up and at 'em!
The election was just more gridlock . . . no clear message at all.
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