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What grade would you give President Obama for the 8 years in office?

  1. jackclee lm profile image82
    jackclee lmposted 4 months ago

    Now that the dust has settled, after the 2016 election and a new administration in place, what grade would you give Obama? (A, B, C, D, F)?
    There is no right or wrong answer. Just your honest assessment of what he accomplished or failed to do...
    I will start by giving him a C minus.
    His 8 years has been under performing in both the economy and in world politics. His most missed oppportunity is the betterment of race relations in America. In fact, I think he made it worse. What is your opinion?

    1. wilderness profile image99
      wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      I'd go with that assessment.  He was a great statesman and orator, inspiring many with both those qualities and his race.  His major failings include Obamacare, worsening of race relations by his actions and words and an almost complete failure to promote bi-partisanship.  He placated other nations, but whether that was good or bad is another question.  He brought style to the White House, which we have lost totally with Trump.  He did help the country out of the recession, by using the time and experience honored method of spending our way out it, but unfortunately we don't have anything to show for the trillions spent.  Past presidents have left a legacy of improved infrastructure or other things, but the Obama recovery left nothing but banks salvaged from their own idiocy.

    2. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      This is so partisan and consequently ridiculous. Of course, a rightwinger will never give Obama a passing grade. What do you expect? I give Obama a B. He was weak in believing that he could really confer with Right when they never really intended to cooperate at any level. By the way Jacklee, just because Obama is Black why is he expected to have improved race relations? Those never really have been ideal here. It is just about removing the veil from what has always been there. Am I to expect that he is to pull a rabbit from a hat?

      I remember Sept. 2008, seems like we were in pretty bad straits then, how quickly we forget how Mr. Obama successfully brought us back from the brink.

      I am surprised that you gave Bill Clinton the grade you gave him. I would have given both Bushs' and Reagan somewhat lower grades.

      1. jackclee lm profile image82
        jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        I gave Clinton a higher grade due to the economy. His impeachment would have knocked him down to a C-. He was able to triangulate and change course after lossing the mid term election. Obama never did that.

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Comparatively, there was eons of time between the obstruction provided by the GOP in 1995 and that Obama ran into by 2013. It was a much more radically strident and reactionary Republican Party than anything that Clinton faced. He was a great politician and was more effective than Obama for that reason. His wife is lacking in all the things that made Bill successful.

      2. wilderness profile image99
        wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        "By the way Jacklee, just because Obama is Black why is he expected to have improved race relations?"

        Because every president is expected to improve race relations.  His race does not excuse him from that duty.

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          OK, Wilderness, what did you and Jacklee expect Obama to do to improve race relations? You can almost blame the recent  prevalence of thevideo camera on cell phones to reveal abuses and friction in the matters of law enforcement, for example, that were always in there within Black communities but simply swept under the rug by police, or otherwise simply not documented. When we had all the race riots during the late 1960's would you have blamed Lyndon Johnson as a fomenter of bad relations between the races?

          1. promisem profile image91
            promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            I will give you 2 reasons how he improved race relations.

            1. He proved once and for all that America is racially mature enough to elect someone who has a mixed raced heritage.

            2. When he was elected, reparations for slavery was a hot topic. Obama's response: "I have said in the past — and I'll repeat again — that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed." The reparations movement died a quick death.

            The claim that race relations declined under Obama is absurd.

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Well, Promisem, you are half right. Obama lost both in 2008 and 2012 among the Anglo voters. He only won the election through the overwhelming support of people of color. All people of color, it ran the gamut

              I agree wholeheartedly with your second point.

              1. promisem profile image91
                promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                LOL. I love it when I'm at least half right. smile

                Regardless, he would have lost if the Anglo vote had been more negative. I call that progress.

                1. Credence2 profile image81
                  Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  Yes, it was true if the Anglo vote were more negative. But when I remember The McCain Palin ticket and the economic tsunami in 2008 that was squarely the blame of GOP policies, I am surprised that The GOP ticket got as much support as it did. If the circumstances were not as dire for Republicans in 2008, I am certain that McCain would have won. 2012 was a different story however, your point maynresonate a little better here.

            2. wilderness profile image99
              wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Good points, and well taken.

              1. promisem profile image91
                promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Thanks, Wilderness.

            3. Misfit Chick profile image72
              Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              It is seriously absurd considering how white supremacy began to thrive again shortely after Obama was elected as a RESPONSE to him being elected. It put a glaring spotlight that there WERE still radical racial issues surrounding us - and this election has only irritated it by emboldering those types of 'alt-right free-thinkers' even more.

              I was really proud of us as a country when Obama was elected, because I really didn't think he could possibly win JUST because 1) that MIX of races alone is blasphemy to many; 2) the color of his skin was WAY too dark, maybe if his white genetics had been more dominant; and 3) dang SCARY Muslim name. I was really sure those three things combined would count him out.

              I was SO PROUD of us as a country, it was an amazing milestone!

              But, as I've watched Obama though the past eight years, what has been disappointingly-obvious to me is that he has very little respect among 'the right' - and that seemed to be the main reason why he couldn't accomplish nearly as much as we expected him to. He faced a hard wall against them no matter what topic he was trying to address from any direction. Its not like people trusted his 'good' nature NEARLY as much as they seem to trust Trump's 'bad' nature.

              While I could understand it in the beginning, it never got better - and its not like Obama was EVER 'Trumpish' with an ugly, irritating disposition to dig deeper divisions or stir up hate. He made an effort to reach out to the GOP in the beginning; but I think that dwindled as the years went on after it didn't do much to help. Remember all those basketball games he would organize, LoL!

              What does that say about us as a country? In our collective treatment of Obama compared to every other president we have ever been divided over (The Bush's, Clinton, etc.) - we have never collectively treated a potus so despicably. We deserve maybe a C grade just because of how the extremes balance things out - but dang, some GOPers really deserve a SPANKING. I think it is one of the big reasons why 'the left' feels so entitled to flip the game back onto Trump.

              Its not helping, so I am currengly giving our country a D - and I give us that only cuz we're obviously still trying to acclimate.

              As for grading Obama... I expected him to be able to accomplish more & better; but the obstruction of the opposing party was unprecidented. And all the while, he kept his head while both he and his beautiful family acted like they actually enjoyed being our first family, despite how ugly we Americans can be.

              So, I give him an A for eight years of hard, intelligent effort that paid off in more ways than the right-wing wants to give him credit for - and for doing it SO well against strong winds that no other president has ever had to navigate through. Bravo, and I appreciate the HELL out of the fact that he isn't allowing himself to fade completely into the sunset (after that extended vacation, LoL!) until the country rights itself, again. He obviously knows we could really use his stabiliizing influence. If that isn't a leader going above & beyond the call of duty, I don't know what is. (I probably terrified some antichrist believers just by saying that, ha!)

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              No really, think about it... Would Obama have been able to be elected if he had been caught even in a PAST conversation like this? Take any Trump lie - any size, little white one or big ugly one - and imagine Obama saying it, much less getting away with it. Its a damn hard stretch of the imagination.

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              And the worst part is... GOP have NO respect for American voters. They only care about manipulating us.

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              1. Misfit Chick profile image72
                Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Keep ignoring me, I'm just a crazy, offensive, WAY too poignant woman - right?!!

            4. Readmikenow profile image94
              Readmikenowposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Five race riots under Obama.  Under his leadership ISIS came alive and wreaked havoc in the middle East.  The Economy grew the slowest under any president.  He created a war on police.  Obamacare is a failure. He opened up Cuba so a Communist country could have more money to oppress their own people.  His deal with Iran gave billions of dollars to a country that engaged in state sponsored terrorism.  His response " yes, some of the money will go directly to terrorism." When you take away the Obama theater he provided...there was no substance to him or what he did.

              1. Misfit Chick profile image72
                Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                I've noticed that my long post with all the incriminating images has been ignorned - despite its many good points. Here's one that you missed about race riots:

                "...white supremacy (and racial tensions, in general) began to thrive again shortely after Obama was elected as a RESPONSE to him being elected. It put a glaring spotlight that there WERE still radical racial issues surrounding us - and this election has only irritated it by emboldering those types of 'alt-right free-thinkers'" AND their enemies even more. (Oh my gosh, all the black people getting a BIG HEAD like Obama - that has to be put to a stop! And it wasn't just whites thinking that...)

                If you think there is no reason for 'Black Lives Matter' protests bcuz you listen to Fox News tell you what to think - you're not paying attention. We just had another situation in Seattle last week - police killed a PREGNANT mom of FOUR after she had called police to report a burglary. She didn't live in a very good apartment building, so they knew the street; and they also knew this lady. Yeah, she had a reputation for mental issues - and apparently she was holding a knife and wouldn't put it down. So they SHOT her because policemen are too weak to deal with a pregnant lady?!!

                Don't even try to argue with me on this point. I live in Seattle and have to live with the destructive 'free speech' protest rallies and the ADDITIONAL violence they have brought JUST since Trump was elected. (Check out the increase in shooting crimes in big cities across the country.)

                This racial crap didn't begin with Trump or Obama - they have both brought it out into the mainstream again, each in their own way: Obama by having the NERVE to win a presidential election; and Trump by tossing PC aside to divide racial divisions (and every other division) as deep as he possibly can.

                I keep telling you all, Trump's purpose isn't to install a set of controversial GOP initiatives into our government - he is here to divide us a much as he can, beyond the breaking point, if possible.

                There is so much more value in bringing this world to a war... We get to use up all the old military weapons & equipment; and have good excuses to manufacture new & better ones. We get to destroy huge segments of land & buildings that will need to be reconstructed, afterwards - BIG MONEY! Who cares about all the dead people? They turn to dust and we will recover bigger & better than ever!

                The question is, are we going to let 'the powers that be' continue to tear us apart like this - while they continue to use these silly arguments to divert our attention?

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                1. Misfit Chick profile image72
                  Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  Cuz its not like anyone in here thinks that this country has been intentionally divided - the people are the opposing side, no matter how many there are - are just DUMB.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image82
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    The people are divided not because they are dumb but because they have passion and they care about our country. The two sides are clear, no grey area. You have a progressive left who believes in humanism over God, who believes in globalism over nationalism, and in social justice of socialism over capitalism. They support open borders and undocumented immigrants over a secured border. They believe in a living document of the Constitution that can be interpreted any which way...

        2. promisem profile image91
          promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Obama is not black. His father was black and his mother was white.

          1. Credence2 profile image81
            Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

            As far as I am concerned, he's acknowledged and associated himself with the African American community as an African American man. Once I heard his rendition of an old Al Green Motown hit during one his stops, I was convinced. He is more than a "white man" in Blackface, unlike Ben Carson and others that I know. Being black often goes beyond mere skin color.

            1. promisem profile image91
              promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Well, he may have said so for political reasons. The fact remains that he is half black and half white. It's rather interesting symbolism for crossing the racial divide, don't you think?

              1. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Promises, you know, race and ethnicity is as much a subjective as objective observation. There are not that many people that can say that their lineage is exclusively of one race. He has chosen to live his life immersed in the AA community and not allowing the values of the other half to dilute those values to any serious extent. People, particularely in the beginning in opposition to Obama, had no problem attacking him in derision regarding his Black half.

                1. promisem profile image91
                  promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  Point well taken.

            2. wilderness profile image99
              wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Just another "Uncle Tom", is he (Carson)?  It's hard to imagine more racist or obnoxious comments.

              1. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                These are good questions, Wilderness, you make a great adversary.

                1. Trump said that he would appoint the BEST people to fill the vacancies, I would especially have expected that at the Department head level.

                2. Trump selecting Carson with absolutely NO experience beyond that of a physician. Are we really selecting the best in regards to HUD?

                3. Carson presides as head of an agency that Trump, based on his ideology and his budget, holds in firm derision.

                4. Carson allows himself to be used by Trump, promoting the 'idea' of diversity in an administration that has proved hostile to its substance, while easily adapting to its form.

                It is the old white guy bringing in a black token to support the image of diversity trick.

                What so many don't realize, is that it is quite transparent to most of us, much like the "Emperor's New Clothes"?

                By the way, I did not say "Uncle Tom"...

                1. wilderness profile image99
                  wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  "He is more than a "white man" in Blackface, unlike Ben Carson and others that I know. Being black often goes beyond mere skin color."

                  I repeat, can there be much more racist, disgusting thing to say?  And no, you didn't use the term "Uncle Tom", but it was damned obvious.

                  1. Readmikenow profile image94
                    Readmikenowposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Nothing in this country is more difficult than to be a black conservative.  Few people know or realize the resources spent by the Tea Party to elect Mia Love, as the first black republican in Congress as well as Tim Scott to be the first black Senator from South Carolina.  Why the support?  They're brilliant people.  The mainstream media completely ignored the milestone of Condoleezza Rice being the first black, female Secretary of State.  The left is a very racist organization.  They hate conservatives, but they especially hate black conservatives.  Ben Carson, Herman Cane, Allen West have all been subject of some of the most horrible things that could be said about a person because they were black and conservative.  Not surprised about attacks on Ben Carson.  How about the very unfair attacks on Clarence Thomas?  This list goes on for the racist left.

            3. Live to Learn profile image79
              Live to Learnposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Credence your comment about Ben Carson is one thing I see which tells me that some blacks (possibly you, in particular) go too far out of their way to ensure they will be looked at differently and negatively. How sad that someone of color is expected to play a certain role in order to be respected by others. I wouldn't say others in their community because it appears your ideas of the black community are narrow and prejudiced. Whether one agrees with Mr. Carson or not; to call him that is an insult to him and any other person who follows their own conscience and doesn't kowtow to some archaic sense of 'us against them'.

              1. ahorseback profile image81
                ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Correct ,  .....I am not black , but I can see racial bias  from a mile away ,  no matter what color the accuser or the accused . Sad !

              2. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Credence your comment about Ben Carson is one thing I see which tells me that some blacks (possibly you, in particular) go too far out of their way to ensure they will be looked at differently and negatively.
                ------------------------
                Unclear, how about elaborating a bit on this?
                -----------------------
                How sad that someone of color is expected to play a certain role in order to be respected by others.
                ------------------------
                He has my respect, but he is a accomodationist , and in the age of Trump and the danger he poses toward the poor which is heavily represented by people of color, it is an accommodation that I cannot afford.

                We had two great men at the turn of the 20th century, Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois. There was a struggle as one wanted compromise with the status quo of racial oppression reassuring the oppressors that our folks would work within their impossible impediments and bigotry to maintain harmony, the other resisted and demanded full rights without compromise.

                I did not think that I had to bring up a century old example of the problem I and MOST Blacks have with Carson. While he is a spiritual man and an accomplished surgeon, that is not enough for our political support. From my perspective system needs reform in the proper direction and that requires constant agitation, not accommodation.
                ----------------------------------------
                I wouldn't say others in their community because it appears your ideas of the black community are narrow and prejudiced. Whether one agrees with Mr. Carson or not; to call him that is an insult to him and any other person who follows their own conscience and doesn't kowtow to some archaic sense of 'us against them'.
                ---------------------------------------------
                I am a Black person, so I am somewhat qualified to touch on the subject. Whether you want to admit it or not, 'us against them' is not out of style and goes beyond just racial matters. Yes, I was wrong to use such harsh language about someone who may actually believe that his appointment to the Department goes beyond the fact he has a black face and does not serves Trump politically.

                1. Live to Learn profile image79
                  Live to Learnposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  As long as you are apologizing for using such a derogatory term toward a black person who doesn't share your political ideology then....OK.

                  As to elaborating on that first comment I made, if you present yourself as prejudiced to the extent that no person of color can disagree with you politically, without you resorting to name calling; it does put you in a very negative light. And if you think there are still impossible impediments placed on black people I would love to hear you share them. .From where I am standing a black person has the same freedoms and opportunities that I have. From where I am standing a great deal of your argument to the contrary appears to be hogwash. I suppose you consider Obama an Uncle Tom also, since he got to be president of the United States with all o those impossible impediments in place.

                  1. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    As long as you are apologizing for using such a derogatory term toward a black person who doesn't share your political ideology then....OK.
                    ----------------------
                    As to elaborating on that first comment I made, if you present yourself as prejudiced to the extent that no person of color can disagree with you politically, without you resorting to name calling; it does put you in a very negative light.
                    ----------------------
                    Everybody has an opinion, "an accomodationist" is not name calling it is just a description. It is a style or approach of which I disapprove.
                    ----------------------------------
                    And if you think there are still impossible impediments placed on black people I would love to hear you share them.
                    --------------------------------
                    I used a early 20th century situation to define the terms, that was all. Things have become better since then, but at a tremendous cost.
                    -------------------------------
                    .From where I am standing a black person has the same freedoms and opportunities that I have. From where I am standing a great deal of your argument to the contrary appears to be hogwash. I suppose you consider Obama an Uncle Tom also, since he got to be president of the United States with all o those impossible impediments in place.
                    ---------------------------------
                    Where you stand is not always the right place to really see or appreciate. Even though you are standing at the center of the universe with an unbiased view of all without blind spots, so you believe. I still remember our discussion about discussions about pre-WWII biases against the Japanese and Asians in general in the Northwest. The fact that you could not acknowledge racial problems between whites and Asians in the area during the period, speaks to your 'blind spots'. You see what you want to see, but don't we all? The fact that Obama won was a major milestone on how far we have come, but that does not mean that this is a 'post racial' society. Enter Donald Trump...

    3. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      Jack , I agree ,   C-   is the most i would give Obama's presidency , His choice  of an administration however ,  I would send him home with a note for his mother , please attend a special teacher  parent conference to discuss  Obama's poor choice of administration .

      -He reignited old and healed wounds of  racism  to phony accusatory levels. --He drove economic wedges between upper and lower class  --He has worked hard to amount to nothing in support of the working ,middle class except higher taxes , higher fees , higher energy prices ,  --  What Obama's  collusion with the media has created in America is treasonous ,--   Obama has , since leaving office  obstructed  Trumps foriegn policies in increasing amounts .

      I could go on and on !

    4. Angel Guzman profile image91
      Angel Guzmanposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      I would give him a B.

    5. Sharlee01 profile image80
      Sharlee01posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      Just my opinion - I would give him a C. A just passing mark. He was present and on the job, acted presidential, well spoken. He was never a people's president. He seemed to be elusive, as was his wife. His policies were corrosive to many American's, and his decisions in regards to the Middle East made it possible for ISIS to grow, and become a huge threat to the world. He turned a blind eye on North Korea and Iran's Nuke programs. Both are now taking aimed, and almost ready to use nukes. Obama drew a red line in the sand in Syria, and when it was crossed sat by and did nothing when it was crossed, We as a nation under his lead has to sit back, and witnessed Genocide of the Syrian people. Do I need to mention Libya or the Benghazi disaster?  As well as the many lies...

      And how about that health care plan?  I must also mention Obama's very last speech  at the UN. It went on a painful 45 minutes, he received no applause at all.  I can remember his very first speech at the UN he got 12 standing ovations, he literally brought the house down. In my opinion he all but ruined America's reputation on the world's stage.

      Yes I think a C is fair, he just was not capable of handling the job of President.  He was a do nothing President.

    6. RJ Schwartz profile image95
      RJ Schwartzposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      Jack - wth the current state of affairs, I don't think anyone could grade Obama yet - wait until the probes on all his cronies are finished and we find out who killed Seth Rich

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Great point RJ,....!   Pile it on .

    7. Paul Wingert profile image77
      Paul Wingertposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      B

  2. jackclee lm profile image82
    jackclee lmposted 4 months ago

    By the way,
    Here are my grades for past presidents in my adult life.
    Nixon - D
    Ford - C
    Carter - D
    Reagan - A minus
    Bush Sr. - B
    Clinton - B
    Bush Jr. - B minus
    Obama - C minus

    1. mike102771 profile image80
      mike102771posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      1.    Nixon -   incomplete brought about the end of Vietnam was so if I needed to grade him then for the work he finished then C+ to B- Anyone living in Ohio should approve of the clean air act and the end of the polluted Cuyahoga river burning.

      2.    Ford -D his complete bungling of the economy including the oil crisis.

      3.    Carter - Incomplete to a D. too many promises not enough results. He stood by while the whole middle east fell apart.

      4.    Reagan – B he was the perfect president for his time all long as you aren’t a deficit hawk. If you are then you most likely saw the 80’s as the beginning of the end. He also started what would later become NAFTA

      5.    GWH Bush- incomplete a B for foreign policy a C- to D for domestic. He also Had a hand in NAFTA

      6.    Clinton – B was the perfect president for his times. Crappy husband and treated women wrong (just ask all the big haired women he supposedly assaulted) but that has nothing to do with being a president. Signed NAFTA into law

      7.    G “W” Bush- C  started a war in Iraq on false information, +Started Homeland Security and - TSA given way too much power  Also not beloved by deficit hawks.

      8.    Obama – an incomplete to a C- He promised the sun and the moon and all the stars in the sky to get elected. Lied to the people (you can keep your doctor) forcing Obama care on us without even reading it. Getmo still open.

      I don’t think however it is fair to blame him for the unrest in the country (except then he would speak and take the side against the police without all the facts). He could read a good speech (commander and speech podium and Chief) but presidents don’t write their own speeches anymore.



      It’s become too popular to pick on most of these presidents with their faults and ignore what they did for the country. Nixon is a favorite of the comedians and the left (as if there is a difference) mostly because they think they forced him out. They blame him for a war he ended rather than such people as Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson who helped either increase the war or prolong it. President Obama will be remembered for a lot of things. It’s just not us to decide what those things will be. That will be left up to our descendants.

  3. Evamatu k profile image60
    Evamatu kposted 4 months ago

    I will give a well deserve A.

    1. promisem profile image91
      promisemposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      Can you explain why you would give him such a high grade?

  4. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 4 months ago

    " ........Is it  the old white guy bringing in a black token trick ..........?
    What it is,  is always the race bait trick by prejudiced  forum dwellers .
    Carson is brighter than you or I  and thats for sure .

    1. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      The problem is that we are all ignorant, just in different subjects. Wasn't it the late Will Rogers that said that? Ben Carson is not smarter than us all, in all matters....

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Are you or were you ever a brain surgeon ?  Isn't that what Dr Carson was ?   Because he isn't a polished  political  skater  like Obama  , not a polished B.S. er  like Hilary Clinton ,  not a  street fighter politician  doesn't mean he isn't brilliant .   Personally I believe a lot more Americans could re-learn the truest  professional manners that he carries with him everywhere .

        I would have voted Ben Carson for  President .

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          I did not say that he was not brilliant in HIS CHOSEN PROFESSION. That does not mean that he knows it all and can pick up by osmosis that which most of us have to acquire by experience. But again, that is the way of the Right, acquiring knowledge from thin air while confronting scholars with the experience and education to truly be an expert.

          I would not have voted for him because he is a rightwinged conservative.

          1. jackclee lm profile image82
            jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Credence2,
            That does not make any sense. Just because Carson is a conservative black, you would vote against him? Why? What if he could help blacks become more self reliant and rise above the inner cities by their own bootstrap? What if conservatism is the right message at this time? What if you could gain more wealth under a conservative government? What if all our lives could be improved?
            Guess what, all that I said has happened before under a conservative Ronald Reagan. I guess you would not have voted for him either... sad.

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

              No, Jacklee, it makes perfect sense, I am a liberal/progressive. I can't support hard right conservatives whatever color they happen to be. That goes back to Alan Keyes in the 1980s. I don't vote for color but for those whose philosophy and ideology more closely mirror my own values.  I am going to need a lot more evidence before I can believe that "conservatism" is the attitude whose time has come. A lot of 'what ifs', Jacklee. I can only judge them based on their past performance and there has been nothing to redeem them there. Black folks and people of color did not particularly fare well under Reagan. And no, before I have a rightwing cowboy type in the White House, I felt much more comfortable voting for Carter in a second term back in 1980. I regret that he did not win.

              1. jackclee lm profile image82
                jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                You are in the minority then (not just in skin color). Most people agree with me that Reagan was a great president and it was his conservatism and his believe in America that has made his administration great. A rising tide raise all ships..., peace through strength, limited federal government, cutting taxes to spur economic boom...
                You don't have to believe me. Just go and do your own research. Reagan helped the black community more than you gave him credit for. He also help free the millions of people trapped in the former soviet union under communism. The liberal progressive left will never admit this. Reagan was the one that ended the cold war, not Gorbachov... He and Thatcher and Pope John Paul II.
                Carter was a good man but a disaster as a President. The fact that you fail to see it, at the time and voted for him, should tell you something. How mis calibrated are your sensibilities...
                I don't mean this as a disrespect. Don't take it personally.
                I would make the same observation as I see it if it was anyone else.

                1. Credence2 profile image81
                  Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  You are in the minority then (not just in skin color). Most people agree with me that Reagan was a great president and it was his conservatism and his believe in America that has made his administration great.
                  -----------------------------------
                  I don't know what circles you travel in? Not most people, but most white people with whom you associate believe that Reagan was a great president. Seriously, how many black folks did you know that were foaming at the mouth in effusive praise for the greatness of Ronald Reagan? That is a pretty small subset of the whole. But, I have to admit that there has been worse, i.e., Harding, Nixon, Trump....
                  ---------------------------------

                  A rising tide raise all ships..., peace through strength, limited federal government, cutting taxes to spur economic boom...
                  You don't have to believe me. Just go and do your own research. Reagan helped the black community more than you gave him credit for. He also help free the millions of people trapped in the former soviet union under communism.
                  -------------------------------------
                  Reagan attacked programs that were designed to assist the poor and indigent. Unfortunately, a disproportionate portion of the black community were poor. So, whose side did you think that we were going to take? He is the father of deficit spending in modern times, with the beginning of massive national debt with his tax cuts and military expansion and a naïve idea that spending cuts were possible to balance to the extent that he required them. 

                  No, Gorbachev was the hero. Since the cold war, his glasnost and perestroika set him apart from previous Soviet apparatchiks from Stalin thru Andropov. There was no reason to believe that Reagan would have been any more successful than previous presidents who operated during the Cold War. Gorbachev made the difference and Reagan just had the luck of the Irish to be in the right place at the right time.  We have had our fair share of scandal with him regarding Iran-Contra and the cover ups. The fact that Gorbachev backed away from the traditional Soviet hard line was why the Cold War ended.

                  Carter was just unlucky, the Iran crisis dominated a large part of his presidency and his failure to get the hostages out along with being blamed for a dismal economy was the reason he could not get reelected.

                  What I see is that I don't trust conservatives and their philosophies generally, and that applies to Trump and the current crop of GOP legislators, specifically. With what Reagan claimed and represented for me and mine, Carter was the only acceptable choice.

                  Nothing personnel, you are simply on the opposite side of the globe from where I sit and there are plenty of people here on this side with me. Can you say that we are all not aware of who and what we support and why?

                  1. jackclee lm profile image82
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Credence2, so by your own words, Reagan was lucky and Carter was unlucky...

                  2. GA Anderson profile image81
                    GA Andersonposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Now Credence2, you knew it would take a Reagan reference to draw me into a "rate the president" thread didn't you. That's almost a bit underhanded. ;-)

                    You are right that Gorbachev was a hero of the moment - regarding the end of the Cold War, but so was Pres. Reagan. His actions contributed equally with Gorbachev's to achieve that end. It was not his "luck of the Irish" that placed him in the moment, it was the duo of Reagan and Gorbachev that created the moment. I agree with your assessment of Gorbachev's actions, but your refusal to recognize Reagan's equally important contribution to their success is telling.

                    As for Carter, I think you are right about the effects of the Iranian hostage crisis too, but, although it dominated his last year in office, it was really only the 'final nail in the coffin' for his presidency. There were plenty of other mistakes and inadequacies in his performance - before the hostage crisis. Bad luck was not the cause of his failed re-election bid. But, like your short-changing of Pres. Reagan's accomplishments, it is also telling that you would mis-credit Pres. Carter's failures and missteps to being "unlucky."

                    j.. just sayin'

                    GA

          2. ahorseback profile image81
            ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Obviously  you wouldn't vote for him for that and many  other reasons  as  well ,  The problem IS however that scholars , intellectuals ,  professors  do not in themselves  contain  wisdom , motivation nor  leadership skills ,   Obama proved that over and over again .Hilary proved that over and over again    A liberal  characteristic however is to NOT let  wisdom and leadership get in the way of great intellect .
            The lefts problem is in  that your leadership always comes out of  our tax based  and tax funded education institutions that become  your  ruling class . Liberal  Intellectuals that can  mold minds but not economies ,  they can  brainwash students but not entire populations of adults ,  they can articulate  lies and evade  truth  but not discern the difference between them  ,    Maybe the left is idol struck  or celebrity bitten in the inner minds .  A  genius like Dr Carson comes along and speaks softly  and you think he's weak ,  The ideology of the left is so shallow that ,if there is no -D  prefix in the name , collective blindness  attacks  from the center out and spreads across the collected crowds .  If you think  that ivory towers  alone produce leadership , that's your second  political mistake  , First mistake ?  You voted for Obama and Clinton .

            A plumber would have been a better president , a carpenter  a better secretary of state .no insult to plumbers or nail-benders .

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

              "Obviously  you wouldn't vote for him for that and many  other reasons  as  well"
              ------------------------------------------
              No, the primary reason that I told you is that Carson subscribes to the rightwing view of things and I do not. That is all the 'reason' that I need.  So, we just don't vote for anybody just because they are Black.
              -----------------------------------------
              " The problem IS however that scholars , intellectuals ,  professors  do not in themselves  contain  wisdom , motivation nor  leadership skills ,"
              -------------------------------------------
              Who says that leadership and wisdom is inconsistent with scholarship, another theory?
              ------------------------------------

                "Obama proved that over and over again"
              ---------------------------
              What short comings Obama had has nothing to do with his 'scholarship, but more a personality and style that was far too congenial toward obstinate adversaries.
              -------------------------
              " A liberal  characteristic however is to NOT let  wisdom and leadership get in the way of great intellect"
              -----------------------------------
              Another interesting theory, it is far from universally accepted. You will have to do better.
              -----------------------------------------
              The lefts problem is in  that your leadership always comes out of  our tax based  and tax funded education institutions that become  your  ruling class . Liberal  Intellectuals that can  mold minds but not economies ,  they can  brainwash students but not entire populations of adults ,  they can articulate  lies and evade  truth  but not discern the difference between them.
              -------------------------------------------
              So for conservatives, ignorance is a virtue? After the 2008 election, I heard many rightwingers accuse Obama of being overeducated. Is being stupid better?
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Maybe the left is idol struck  or celebrity bitten in the inner minds .  A  genius like Dr Carson comes along and speaks softly  and you think he's weak ,  The ideology of the left is so shallow that ,if there is no -D  prefix in the name , collective blindness  attacks  from the center out and spreads across the collected crowds .  If you think  that ivory towers  alone produce leadership , that's your second  political mistake  , First mistake ?  You voted for Obama and Clinton .
              ---------------------------------
              Seem like your idols are strongmen and tyrants You, yourself, revealed your fear of democracy that expresses itself in a free press. Yes, Carson,  to be manipulated and insulted by Trump while continuing as his errand boy does smack of weakness. Dr. Carson is obviously well educated, you don't seem to have any trouble with his tax based, tax funded education. When will you cut the BS?Ahorseback, the only reason that you evaluate Carson differently from the overeducated liberal is because he is a rightwinger. Why not just admit it? The ideology of the right is abhorrent, so I will take shallow any day and work from my side to provide greater depth and force of movement to remove the rightwinger from his current place. What ever mistake I made, I will rectify with an across the ticket removal of GOP candidates in 2018.

  5. William F. Torpey profile image71
    William F. Torpeyposted 4 months ago

    A

  6. Valeant profile image97
    Valeantposted 4 months ago

    Only an idiot would give Bush Jr. anything above D.  He fabricated intelligence to get us into a war.  Cut taxes while being in said war, and couldn't head off the collapse of the economy.

    Terrible president.

    1. wilderness profile image99
      wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      You have evidence that he fabricated evidence?  As in he was told the truth and told us all something else?

      1. Misfit Chick profile image72
        Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Whether he actually had it fabricated or was deceived by a fabrication, what difference does it make? D, at least. GOP is always so quick to go to war - yippee, more money to make for our supporters!!

        1. wilderness profile image99
          wildernessposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Actually, quite a bit.  Motive does play a part, unless you believe that all automobile accidents are intentionally caused?  That anyone believing a lie (Bush didn't; there were WMD's there) makes them an idiot?  That if intel is wrong it means all Republicans just drool over the possibility of a war?

    2. jackclee lm profile image82
      jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      Be nice. Bush 43 kept our country safe after 9/11. He took the fight over there instead of the homeland.I believe there were no terrorist acts against the US during his 8 year not withstanding 9/11 of course. Despite the many charges against Bush, he was not a conservative. That was my biggest disappointment. He and Cheney took the high road and refuse to comment or defend themselves against the left attacks... The whole thing about him lying to get us into the Iraq war is a fabrication of the left. All intelligence agencies believed that Sadam had WMD and that he would use it...

  7. Valeant profile image97
    Valeantposted 4 months ago

    Wilderness:  Phase II of the Senate report on Pre-War Intelligence was publicly released on Thursday June 5, 2008.

    This was a bi-partisan majority report (10-5) and "details inappropriate, sensitive intelligence activities conducted by the DoD’s Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, without the knowledge of the Intelligence Community or the State Department." It concludes that the US Administration "repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed.” These included President Bush's statements of a partnership between Iraq and Al Qa'ida, that Saddam Hussein was preparing to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups, and Iraq's capability to produce chemical weapons.

    So, yeah, I accept that investigation as fact.

  8. William F. Torpey profile image71
    William F. Torpeyposted 4 months ago

    A

  9. blueheron profile image96
    blueheronposted 4 months ago

    Liberalism/Progressivism are ideologies espoused by government employees/retirees, and those who gain their income from the government either directly or indirectly. "Indirectly" includes corporations and other enterprises that depend on government laws and mandates, subsidies, and monopolies. This includes almost everyone in education, law, health care, banking and finance, Big Ag, and most big corporations. Liberals/progressives are merely people who want more government money--or fear seeing the funds they receive diminish.

    In my town, the annual revenues/expenditures for a very small public school system are $20 million per year. A very small handful of local elites controls these funds. A voucher system horrifies these people. They would no long control a $20 million per year cash flow--handing out jobs, contracts, and materials/equipment purchases to relatives and cronies. Instead, parents and the community as a whole would control this money.

    HUD housing is a similar deal. It is a subsidy for landlords, and it drives up rents and the cost of purchasing housing for other residents. Agricultural subsidies are why we have corporate agriculture instead of small family farms. Obamacare gifted a staggering cash flow to insurance companies. Obama bailed out the banks.

    Big Government is where the people are taxed so that the government can gift those tax dollars to the wealthy .01%. The people get welfare and food stamps.

    1. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      "Liberalism/Progressivism are ideologies espoused by government employees/retirees, and those who gain their income from the government either directly or indirectly. "Indirectly" includes corporations and other enterprises that depend on government laws and mandates, subsidies, and monopolies. This includes almost everyone in education, law, health care, banking and finance, Big Ag, and most big corporations. Liberals/progressives are merely people who want more government money--or fear seeing the funds they receive diminish."

      So what sets apart these "conservatives" after this litany of yours which in one way or another covers everybody, who is left?

      So, I guess that all the miltary veterans and social security recipients are all liberal, too. If that were true then Rightwingers would never win any election?

      And what 'teat' are the conservatives taking their nourishment from?

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        My " teat " nourishment  comes from smaller , less intrusive ,less taxing nanny state  government that allows me to support myself , like all conservatives , hence the "conserve " of isms .

        I never got my free  Obama phone , is that what you message  from ?

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          That Obama phone stuff is just more tired cliches from the rightwinger.

          The big Government comes to protect us all from the excesses of the plutocrats that you seem to idolize. Also, we need protection from people like you who want to destroy the idea of a free press based on lame excuses about "liberal media".

          1. ahorseback profile image81
            ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            You either Don't understand the abuses of "free press " or simply don't care because its your ideology they support and i know  that IS what it all amounts to  for you ,   

            "Big Government" gives you all you need  and  to you , only lacks giving you all you want , you 've already described that  entitlement .

  10. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 4 months ago

    Liberal leadership and their unseen racism , All anyone has to do is observe  the great  bastions of liberal local government , Chicago always comes to mind , NYC  ,  Detroit , L.A.  ,  New Orleans , Baltimore , Washington DC.  ,Seattle ,   the evidence of local  political policy  support  for minorities speaks volumes ,   and it's no different now  with the sanctuary city governments ,

    "Bring me your voting masses ",   the promises made for the votes gained has merely supported liberal politicians  who never otherwise  have a useful  policy of real urban growth ,  economic advancements or racial equality ,  these things are no more in their plans than an affordable ACA ,   What have liberal politicians  done at all but  provide more and more  entrenching entitlements to minorities and effectively  create the construct of permanent  enslavement of all  minorities by design ?

    1. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      The very idea that minorities subsist solely on entitlements and are enslaved to Democrats for that reason is standard conservative dogma and racist in itself. It shows the lack of respect which explains why the GOP and conservatives continue to have problems gaining support in the Black community.

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Or ,     Its the truth and always the most difficult part of facing the truth is  admitting it within ourselves.

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          It is your common stereotype and delusion and if Republicans continue in it, they will continue to be avoided by the Black community, but then again, they don't need minority votes and voters? Just wait until mid century....

        2. GA Anderson profile image81
          GA Andersonposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Could your point be affected by the fact that the majority of welfare programs recipients are white Caucasians?

          GA

          1. ahorseback profile image81
            ahorsebackposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            When you say "most "do you bother with proportionate percentages  or are you in support of just the usual  P.C.  slang ?    I know you're more intelligent than that .
            For instance , single parent homes , abortions ?
            Numbers do not allow the support of falsehoods
            .

            1. GA Anderson profile image81
              GA Andersonposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              No ahorseback, my statement didn't address a proportionate consideration, it wasn't intended to, and it certainly wasn't an effort to be PC. It was merely an attempt to prod you to consider some of your all-encompassing generalizations before putting so much faith in them.

              I am aware that Blacks are disproportionately represented as welfare program recipients. And I do share the persuasive view, (as jackclee detailed), that Democrat originated, and supported welfare programs have done more harm than help, (the Republicans aren't guiltless - some of their 'forced' eligibility requirements are the source of the harm).

              Wouldn't it be better to be a little more directed, than to have your broad generalizations so easily disproved - requiring you to then say what you really meant - to prove that maybe you weren't all wrong?

              GA

      2. jackclee lm profile image82
        jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Credence2, we conservatives are not saying it is the only thing that the black community are dependent on welfare. It is a higher percentage than the average. Do you deny that?
        You have to ask yourself why so many teenager single moms are from the black community?
        This was not always the case. Before there was welfare, and housing subsidies and child services, and food stamps... there were poor blacks as there were poor immigrants and poor whites but there families were in tack.
        It was the social welfare system that destroyed the black family unit leading to the many problems with juvenile delinquency, crimes and drugs and gangs...
        I wish you would remove your race lens and look at these government programs for what they are.
        They are a failure. Their good intentions end up hurting the people that needed the help. There solution of throwing more money did not fix the problem but made things worse.

        1. gmwilliams profile image88
          gmwilliamsposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000- you're correct as usual, Jack.

        2. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Credence2, we conservatives are not saying it is the only thing that the black community are dependent on welfare.
          ------------------------------------
          With a group or community that is on average poorer than the general population, then yes those percentages are higher. What about the statistics as shown by this USA today article:

          https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/pe … /21877399/

          In regard to food stamps I don't recall a large population of Blacks living in either Oregon or West Virginia? So this idea that: Blacks supporting democrats and their policies = Black poverty and their otherwise dysfunctional state? I am sure that there are many GOP voters that are white in West Virginia, and are staunch GOP, how has their loyalty to conservative principles benefitted them? So as was alluded to by a recent and astute comment earlier in this thread, Blacks are not the only ones in poverty and on food stamps.

          So you engage in a false equivalency, in other words, 'weird science'.

          The GOP does have an image problem beyond the fact that it and conservatives are intellectually dishonest. The patient with any number of ailments and maladies lies on the table, you want to turn off life support. Is that your best recommendation?

          Black people have been supporting Democrats since the Thirties, what is the specious argument that somehow  all the problems in the Black community have been occurring since then? The moralistic and simplistic arguments from Republicans and the right just pour more salt on the wounds. Again, they are intellectually dishonest, it is easy to wag a finger and lecture, but what are your solutions to the problem? How do you take conservative principles and turn around problems in our community that can just as much be attributed to the dark side of modernity as supporting "democrats'? The stuff that everybody accuses blacks of are coming to a white community near you. They have been insulated for a time, but these negative trends are increasing for them as well(opioid addition) and that is just the beginning.
          ------------------------------------------


          "You have to ask yourself why so many teenager single moms are from the black community?
          This was not always the case. Before there was welfare, and housing subsidies and child services, and food stamps... there were poor blacks as there were poor immigrants and poor whites but there families were in tack."
          -----------------------------
          There is more to life and living than just families being intact. People have to eat and have shelter. If you are advocating the life style of the poor prior to advent of social welfare programs of the thirties, than you don't know much about American history.
          -------------------
          It was the social welfare system that destroyed the black family unit leading to the many problems with juvenile delinquency, crimes and drugs and gangs...

          I wish you would remove your race lens and look at these government programs for what they are.
          They are a failure.
          ------------------------------------
          So what is the Conservatives' solution to the problems, besides blame Social Welfare and tossing granny and the kids on onto the street to fend for themselves, in accordance to your 'family values' dogma?

          Until the Conservatives, aka, GOP confer with the Black community instead of insult it and talk at it like one would a child, you will get nowhere. That is a promise. From my Amway days, I remember an old adage, "better to have a hamburger well presented, than a steak in the face".

          1. jackclee lm profile image82
            jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Credence2,
            It was not my intent to pour salt on the wound.
            I was pointing out how supporting a democratic progressive policy have made the plight of blacks and the poor in general worse. It is not a race thing but a social welfare thing.
            You ask for my solution...and I will give it.
            1. Stop voting with your blanket support of one party. You loose your power by voting 90% democrats.
            2. Demand better schools in the inner cities. Options like charter schools and vouchers. Break the hold of the teacher's unions over the board of education in these cities. The schools are failing and no one cares. The students are receiving the short end while teachers get lucrative contracts.
            3. Follow the advice of some of your religion and conservative leaders...people like Dr. Ben Carson who grew up poor but made it in our country...how did he succeed while many failed?
            4. Stop being a victim. You might have a born disposition but that is not an excuse to do nothing.
            5. Learn a skill. Does not have to be an expensive college education. Any skill will get a good pay including plumbers and electricians and welders and a slew of skilled labors.
            6. Don't get marry or have kids until you are ready. The quickest way to poverty is to be dependent on government welfare. You will be poor in spirit as well.
            7. Stop believing in the lie that conservatives are bigots and wants poor people to die...
            It was never true. Conservatives wants all of us to live in a color blind society. Like MLK, we judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
            BTW, the list of recommendations apply equally to any minority group.

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Credence2,
              It was not my intent to pour salt on the wound.
              ---
              No, Jacklee, I am sure that was not your intent
              --------
              I was pointing out how supporting a democratic progressive policy have made the plight of blacks and the poor in general worse. It is not a race thing but a social welfare thing.
              -------------------------
              Is that really the cause? that is where we are in disagreement. The question I ask is how GOP conservative policy is going to make it better?
              -----------------------------------------
              You ask for my solution...and I will give it.
              1. Stop voting with your blanket support of one party. You loose your power by voting 90% democrats.

              We have to a have REASON to vote for other party beyond the fact that it is simply there. A party that has denigrated our people, culture and values. A party that attempts to disenfranchise us, belittle us at every opportunity. A party that would rather lecture than listen. Why would I vote for a party like that? I will always stick with the Devil I know...
              --------------------------------------------
              2. Demand better schools in the inner cities. Options like charter schools and vouchers. Break the hold of the teacher's unions over the board of education in these cities. The schools are failing and no one cares. The students are receiving the short end while teachers get lucrative contracts.

              I am interested in improving the standard of education for K-12. But vouchering or otherwise linking access and quality of education to how much one can afford is not much better than discriminating based upon race. We all know that the 'tax breaks'  that underlie the vouchers really only benefit the wealthy, children from poor families won't benefit a great deal.  I want a level playing field for all going out, and equal access and quality of education at the early stages is part of that. So, I say make the needed improvements within the public schools system.
              --------------------------------
              3. Follow the advice of some of your religion and conservative leaders...people like Dr. Ben Carson who grew up poor but made it in our country...how did he succeed while many failed?

              I consider myself successful in my chosen field of endeavor and I did it without becoming a rightwinger. No one has eliminated the voices of spiritual and conservative advocates from the chorus. Their solutions and examples that support them are far and few in-between. One case in point does not support a general plan or approach to the problems.
              ----------------------
              4. Stop being a victim. You might have a born disposition but that is not an excuse to do nothing.

              Why you get the idea that minority people has resolved to do nothing to improve their state of affairs? The inner city is not represented of our minority group of as a whole. Why do folks continue to imply that this is the case?
              -------------------------------
              5. Learn a skill. Does not have to be an expensive college education. Any skill will get a good pay including plumbers and electricians and welders and a slew of skilled labors.

              Good trade schools are expensive, but conservative ideology is against providing assistance for those that otherwise lack the resources to attend. This is a lot like you folks saying 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps'. But where are the boots?
              ------------------
              6. Don't get marry or have kids until you are ready. The quickest way to poverty is to be dependent on government welfare. You will be poor in spirit as well.

              Good advice that could apply to all poor people, not just Blacks
              ------------
              7. Stop believing in the lie that conservatives are bigots and wants poor people to die...
              It was never true. Conservatives wants all of us to live in a color blind society. Like MLK, we judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

              Sounds more like a slogan, Jacklee. You are being judged on what you do, and how your policies and behavior mirror the high sounding words. And, lets face it, they do not synch.
              ------
              BTW, the list of recommendations apply equally to any minority group.

              And poor whites...

            2. Misfit Chick profile image72
              Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              The saddest thing about this comment is that you can't see the things that are wrong with it, Jack.

              I intentionally try to remain 'in the middle' between the left & the right because it is a proveable fact that when you focus so much attention on any 'bad' (or good) thing - the essense of it will eventually come to you. (Look up Law of Attraction, it is no-doubt why we have DT in office now, LoL!) In other words, this country is in chaos because our energies are so split among us; and we literally CAN'T create many mutually-productive policies. So while the left & the right continue to push against the extreme ideals of each other - it is my intention to help each of them see the value in the other (as mad as I can get at either side sometimes, LoL!).

              There IS value in 'the right' when they are not attempting to manipulate everyone in the entire country. But right now, and since Obama was first elected - all they seem to be able to do is blame everything they don't like (whether it is actually harmful for the US, or not) on the left without accepting ANY responsiblity for their part, at all.

              As far as the left... They are learning that they don't have nearly as much control as they realized; and that the people in this country are not 'all left' (and for good reasons). Its a very good lesson for them to be learning.

              The problem more than anything else with the extremes of our two main political parties is the intense fighting between them. I have absolutely no doubt that this country could/would start to move forward in remarkable ways if the infighting would stop; and the talking became more about working on creating solutions that work for us instead of all the accusations & insults.

              I always use the fact that GOP contributed the use of already existing insurance companies within Obamacare instead of creating a new government one. That was a brilliant alteration, no matter how much GOP supporters hate that policy. (Just imagine what other good contributions they could make toward bipartisan policies; and even moreso if we didn't have to FORCE them to participate in bipartisan discussions!)

              Obviously, both political parties CAN work together when 'we the people' insist on it. GOP keeps blaming the Dems for creating such a ridiculous policy and practically forcing Obamacare on them - but, GOP wouldn't work with them, when it was OBVIOUS that 'we the people' WANTED healthcare to be addressed - and have, for decades! They KNOW this, and continue to ignore the majority of us.

              Its been exasperating.

              The point is, Jack... When you realize WHY things are the way they are; and WHY black people are on the TOP of the lists you keep bringing up, it makes your persistent view that its 'ALL their fault and not our problem' moot. Its the same thing with indigineous indians: both slavery, and this land being 'claimed' by white conquerors are not that far back in our history - only a handful of generations, this country is LESS than 300 years old.

              How long did it take (via protests & sometimes tragedy) for blacks & women to gain their RIGHTFUL & lawful places within this country via semi-equal rights & voting; and how much longer does it take for everyone - sometimes especially them - to be able to embrace 'the idea' of their 'rightful & lawful' place?

              Credence is right... many (certainly not all, but this is changing WAY too slowly) have NEVER HAD 'boots' to pull themselves up by the bootstraps; and have never stopped having to deal with the ingrained attitudes of the alt-right in whatever form their destructive attitudes have existed in throughout this country's development.

              Do I even need to broach the subject of the attitudes that STILL exist in a big way about women: that they should stay home and raise their children. And when their marriages don't work out; and the family splits - gosh, it is SO seldom that things work out swell for all sides concerned, especially the kids. You may think it is 'the norm' for women to acheive a successful career and family, both - but it is rare in comparison to what actually happens. And are you even aware of how much childcare costs so women CAN go out and work?

              There are still sermons being preached about 'the place of women' in the pulpits - and was actually one of the LAST sermons I ever listened to a couple years ago. I was so incensed! Not only is it still a 'bad' message for young women; but in this day and age when it is so hard for one income to support a family - it really puts an outdated burden on young men.

              Is anyone else concerned about the rising statistics of suicides among young men (and veterans) - no matter what race they are? http://www.bcmj.org/articles/silent-epi … le-suicide https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/s … .html?_r=0 Suicide deaths in the rise among kids - WHY?! Mostly because of variations of bullying that so many people keep excusing as 'being part of growing up'. http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/health/ki … index.html

              This country is a bag of mixed messages & judgements against each other for the most assumptive & ridiculous reasons; and double-standards ABOUND on every side. All of this diversity is GOOD, but only if we take advantage of it by talking & working together, instead of accusing each other & infighting.

              I'll give you one more example of this unnecessary polarization: abortion. There is NOT ONE 'normal' man or woman on this planet ANYWHERE who WANTS an abortion to happen. We ALL want fewer abortions; and there are so many other options to reduce them than by doing the dangerous thing of removing the law of choice. (Btw, abortions especially among young girls have a LOT to do with the mixed messages I just touched on, above - and of course, boys receive a different 'locker-room' message from their mentors: go out and have as much sex as you can get as soon as possible!!)

              When we start appreciating the opposing side, and utilizing all perspectives to develop our policies - then and only then will this country become greater than it already is.

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              1. jackclee lm profile image82
                jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Misfit chick,
                I see you have a lot of passion or else you wouldn't take the time to respond with such a long note.
                Here is what is sad for me. The fact that so many people accept their lot in life and rely on our government to do the heavy lifting.
                They will be disappointed again and again...
                I am glad you brought up the abortion issue.
                Let me address this one item since many of the points you raise deserve a counter but this is one that is front and center for me.
                You claim we all want the same thing and that is for abortion to be rare...
                Is that true?
                We conservatives certainly believes that and in fact we disagree with how abortion came to be legalized in this country. It was decided by the Supreme court without any vote or amendment to our Constitution...
                Today, most poll will show about 50% of the population think abortion is wrong.

                However, does your liberal colleagues believe it should be legal and rare too?
                Why do we have over 1 million abortions per year in this country?
                With all that was spent on sex education and prevention and condoms...day after pill...
                Why are there still so many abortions? Why are some being done in the 2nd and third trimester?
                You are an intelligent person. I would ask you to do your own research. Find out what Planned Parenthood is about. Is abortion the last resort or the first? Find out how much money is being made in abortion clinics? Find out for yourself how some fetus are sold for organ parts for medial research...

                I want you to go back and read the Supreme Court ruling on legalizing abortion back in 1973. Read how the justices struggled with this decision and how they see abortion as a rare and last resort. They would prefer adoption and other methods but allowed this procedure as a last resort to save the life of the mother or when all other options are closed.
                Fast forward to 2017 and see how abortion is adopted, implemented and accepted...Any legal action to restrict abortion is faced with strong opposition from the left. Why?
                Some proposals are reasonable restrictions on late term and partial birth abortions which most Americans agree with...
                Doesn't the unborn fetus have any rights? To life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...
                With regard to Planned Parenthood, why does our tax dollars have to go fund this organization that profits from performing abortions?
                So you see, we as a country are divided on strong principled issues.
                It is not just a miss understanding. It is a fundamental difference in how we are to live as a society.
                Do we want a big government that oversee everything from cradle to grave or do we value individual  choices and freedom and self reliance?
                Who knows best? The government bureaucrats in DC or the individuals who just want to be left alone and pursue his or her dreams...?

                Let me end by making the following observation.
                How is it that a person who immigrate to our country from any third world country, without money, or speak the language and in a few short years, assimulate to our culture, gets a job and work and make a living to support themselves and their family without any government assistance?
                Yet, a US citizen, not disabled, born here, educated here, speaks English and yet can't make a living and have to rely on welfare and food stamps ang government assistance?
                Don't tell me that is a normal way for some people because it can't be...

                1. Misfit Chick profile image72
                  Misfit Chickposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  Like I said, no one WANTS an abortion to happen - and if you think anyone does, you've been watching way to much Fox News. I've also heard about the sale of body parts and such... Most doctors and people within the medical community consider a dead body to be just a mass of cells or whatever. If that is happening, I would imagine that is how they are perceiving the situation.

                  For what its worth, since there are so many people who are totally repulsed by the idea of using aborted tissue for medical purposes - I agree that aborted fetus' should be off limits. Perhaps if the idea of overturning abortion is stopped, our energies could be refocused on this aspect of things to change it. I am certainly not saying that nothing needs to be improved upon this issue.

                  There are so many other things we can do to curb abortions than by eliminating the law surrounding choice. Christian (mostly - and other religions, in general) women are the ones who use abortion the most - despite the fact that they believe God is creating the life within them atom by atom, hair by hair.

                  Why?

                  I've never had an abortion, but I had no less than FIVE fellow Christian teenage & college age girlfriends who did - and every single one of them did it to keep from embarrassing their parents and/or to avoid punishment. I've written about it. It is a HUGE issue among Christian churches that they refuse to acknowledge, much less address.

                  When you figure out WHY abortions happen SECRETLY and so often within the Christian community - you'll be able to figure out how to address the situation to reduce them. You can take a couple hints from my previous post. Young girls and young boys get into trouble while trying to process all kinds of mixed messages.

                  The bottom line is, changing the law will dangerously lead to more desperate dead girls - like before.

                  Why do you feel a need to control things like abortion & same-sex marriages - and yet, insist that the government needs to be out of our healthcare & social challenges? If a young girl who is not capable of taking care of a baby yet has one - you sure don't seem willing to help her raise it. Seems like a glaring contradiction to me with your 'beliefs' in the way.

                  Many MANY people do not believe that the soul enters the body of a baby until a few weeks before birth; and it can happen even within a couple days after a baby being born. Our souls are energy, and they exist long before we are born. Which means they are perfectly capable of being born into another life if the mother decides to make a different choice. God is not limited to these physical bodies like we are.

                  Of course, that is only a belief - one that most conservatives don't hold. It is yet another situation in which conservatives insist that THEIR (many times erroneous) beliefs are the only valid ones.

                  I'm not sure why you are bringing up immigrants, I didn't even touch on them. I'm sorry you've missed my point about the scars that still exist in this country among races that would really help to be healed. There is certainly room for improvements for every single little thing this country deals with. At the moment, most of our policies reflect the wishes of corporations - many of whom LIKE the cheap labor of immigrants. We need to get people into those offices who are more interested in healing the wounds across our land than perpetuating & arguing about them.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image82
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    You didn't answer my question. Why is late term abortion necessary?
                    Why so many abortions with all the prevention methods?
                    Why planned parenthood chose abortion as first option rather than last...?
                    With conservatives, abortion does not stand alone as one isolated issue.
                    It is tied to the whole way of living...
                    Don't you agree many of our social ills are interrelated...
                    One of teen preganancy, single mothers, poverty, welfare and self reliance...
                    All can be addressed by personal behavior choices and they are tied to moral teachings which are lacking in our failed public schools.

                    If you doubt my position on planned parenthood, just go visit a clinic. Tell them you are pregnant and see what kind of advice they will give you...
                    Especially if you are under age... which they are suppose by law to report them. They don't...how come? Who are they protecting? The parents are the last to know.
                    In our current public schools, the nurses are not allowed to give out an aspirin for a headache but they will give advice on abortion and referrals without notifying parents...

  11. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 4 months ago

    ALL political rhetoric aside , I will now "open a can of worms"  for liberals AND all minorities ,.........
    There could in fact be no finer  positive influence  or power within ANY  minorities future that the Black American Conservative .     Why ?        Because my first natural impression of the speeches  of Dr. Ben Carson , Sheriff David Clark  , the honorable Condi Rice ,   David Webb [brilliant radio personality ],  and many many other black conservatives ,   Is that common sense not only originates within and from conservative think tanks , but they alone are the under-dogs of true future of cultural , political progress in America .

    Period !

    1. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

      This is America and this is why we have a right to our opinions. It is just as a liberal and black man, I do not share it.

  12. Misfit Chick profile image72
    Misfit Chickposted 4 months ago

    I've been to a planned parenthood clinic. I used to get my birth control & exams there when I was in college. You can believe what you want to believe about it, Jack - no doubt you will no matter what I say. Like I said, there may be things that can stand to be changed about it. Conservatives simply want to do away with it instead of becoming involved with it - so it is currently a very 'left' organization.

    If you want change, you have to get involved instead of making ignorant, sweeping judgments based on what conservative media hypes up to scare their audiences for profits.

    As far as I am concerned, I did answer all of your questions about abortion. If you need a specific response as to late term abortions, do a search. Those usually happen when a mother finds out that the baby is going to be born handicapped in some way or if there is danger to the mother. It is the mother's choice. We don't all believe in the soul the same way Christians do.

    Most of us, especially women (of all religious cultures) who grow up in this maddening man's world - care as MUCH about the person making the decision about abortion (and WHY they are having to make it) than about the baby who isn't born yet (that you could care LESS about helping to take care of if they can't).

    You have no idea how sad it is that most conservatives can't grasp that concept. If you could, you would probably stop many more abortions than you do. I know that every one of my five girlfriends regretted having their abortions; and NOT ONE of them felt like they had a reliable Christian grownup to talk to about it who would not throw the judgment book at them. One was sure her father would literally kill her - and since he was a deacon in the church and had a reputation for violence against his wife & children, he may very well have. And just as concerning, THREE (I kid you not) of them chose NOT to have children later in life because they felt too guilty about aborting the one they did.

    Fear is what causes most abortions (and kills desperate girls in alleys when abortions are not available); but it is something else that causes all those unwanted pregancies. Like I said, when you figure out WHY this happens so often among Christian congregations and across the country - you'll be on the right track.

    1. jackclee lm profile image82
      jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      I don't know about you personally and I am sure you are truthful in what you experienced.
      However, if that is the case, you are taking a position on abortion that is contrary to what you espouse.
      Don't blame conservatives for trying to limit abortions.
      You should be joining us in keeping abortions rare.
      That is something I can't understand about this issue.
      Why are some woman so dead against any form of restrictions on abortion?
      They want abortion on demand as the rule of the land.
      They claim total control of their body and that trumps anyone else, even a viable fetus.
      Yet you claim you want it to be rare...?
      The facts don't show it. As I said, we have over 1 million abortions performed each year.
      Does that seem rare to you?
      That is a lot of income to planned parenthood.$$$
      I don't want my tax dollar go to that organization. Is that so hard for you to comprehend?

 
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