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Colin Kaepernick and the NFL: So, what is all the hubbub, bub?

  1. Credence2 profile image82
    Credence2posted 7 weeks ago

    This is in regard to the recent controversial political statement made by black NFL athletes, their kneeling during the national anthem instead of standing with hands over their hearts. This was a protest of police shootings of unarmed black men. I am sure that all you hubbers are in the know. This action has angered many whites, including President Trump who said that the men should be fired for their lack of patriotism. The article that I have attached from the Chicago Tribune is a pretty accurate reflection of my thoughts on the matter.
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin … story.html

    Three things about the article and the circumstances rub me the wrong way.

    Many white folks complain about lawlessness and disruption by Black protesters, yet when they peacefully protest as in this case, we are still hearing the whining? It is like I say about conservatives fundamentally, they do not want any protest, peaceful or no. They only want your silence indicative of your accommodation and acceptance of the current system of things, status quo. Why are many whites so disturbed by this? So, they don’t choose to stand, how does that connect with the idea that they hate America? They are making a point, does it really matter whether you want to hear it or not?

    It seems common to me and I experience personally that many whites have an attitude that as an affluent or relatively successful Black you should be grateful and also oblivious to the fact that your status does not render you blind to injustices in society. Spike Lee, the film producer, mentioned an account where while attending a baseball game and the time came to stand for the anthem, he remained seated, then those whites sitting around him said, ‘c’mon Spike, you can stand, you’re doing alright’. But that is not the point, is it?  It is as if they are saying ,’ didn’t you get yours’, so what are YOU complaining about. Well, it is not that simple…. I find that most irritating, any explanation?

    Finally, the twittering twit in chief says that these men should be fired for lacking patriotism. I find that odd, where was his patriotism? He obtained 5 deferments from the draft during Vietnam claiming bone spurs as justification for his 1-Y medical deferment. He is not alone as Clinton also made use of deferments to avoid service. But what makes Trump worse is that despite having never served he has fashioned himself as some sort of arbiter of military courage. I hate double standards and hypocrisy. He is the last person to attack anyone based upon some lack of patriotism, because when it was required of him, he came up short……

    Comments and discussion are welcome...

    1. wilderness profile image99
      wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      I can only speak for myself, but I see two statements, not one: 
      1.  This nation does not deserve my respect and I won't show any to the nation, it's symbol or it's people.
      2.  Now that I've gotten attention with my massively offensive first statement, I'd like everyone to assume that my concern is black folks being shot and like to see something done about it.

      Can't speak for anyone else, but the first statement turns me off to the point that I'm not interested in anything else they have to say; the second message is lost in the first.  And I don't think I'm alone; going through piles of social media posts for anything concerning this I see perhaps 1 post on discrimination, 2 on freedom of speech and the remaining 8 on how offensive it is.  The message they wish to convey is lost.

      I understand the wish to garner attention, but that's not the way to do it.  The effect is the same as that of rioting or other violence; the first message is so strong and offensive that the second just disappears.

      1. PrettyPanther profile image83
        PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Colin Kaepernick was crystal clear about why he was kneeling during the anthem, and it had nothing to do with what you wrote here.

        You arrogantly put your own  interpretation into his actions, exactly as President Trump did. That way, you can justify to yourself why you are offended, even though you made it up in your own mind.

        1. wilderness profile image99
          wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          I do believe that's what I said: "I am insulting you beyond belief, but the reason is black people are dying, so ignore the belief and fix the killing". 

          Doesn't work for me.  If his cause is so small that it requires that kind of action to attract attention then he has a problem.  And if it's not then he still has a problem because he's alienated the large majority of listeners.

          1. PrettyPanther profile image83
            PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            You are choosing to be insulted "beyond belief" because of some imaginary slight and imaginary motives that you have concocted in tour own mind.

      2. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Wilderness, thanks for sharing your opinion here.

        Most Black people are not particularly enamored with the version of many whites idea of appreciation and respect to the nation. We still have serious problems and grievances with society and need to get that communicated and not just shrouded so that certain people will not be offended. They got to see their ball game in its entirety, did they not? Showing ‘respect’ does not have to mean toeing YOUR line. There were no bricks thrown, no one was killed or injured and there was no desecration to the flag. These men made a point by simply not doing what it is that these whites wanted them to do, so from their perspective, any indication of dissent from the status quo was considered a sign of disloyalty? Well, we are not satisfied with the progress to date on issues of concern to our group.

        There are many that will attempt to discredit the movement BLM and what it is trying to accomplish, but the issue is not going to go away just because certain people are uncomfortable.

        As for the need to garner attention, what is the way to do it? Are we consigned to the broom closet of our respective homes, free just to protest there? Protest, by its very definition, is designed to make people uncomfortable.  Well, I don’t find the message that these men sent as offensive, it is interesting to wonder why so many whites do?

    2. wilderness profile image99
      wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      I'll add one more thing: I saw a post from a player that quite plainly indicated that he wasn't going to participate...until Trump's comment.  His participation isn't about discrimination; it's about the president, and with the rapid growth of participants I kind of think a good many are doing the same thing.  Protesting the Presidents comment, not inequality.

      Side issue; do you find it ironic that so many people screamed when Trump did NOT negatively comment on something they didn't like (the message of the supremacists), but now when the table is reversed they scream just as loudly when he does comment negatively on a different group of people?

      1. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Yes, Trump attitude about as expressed about the protest would be enough to motivate people who otherwise may not have participated to participate. The president ignored the issue that motivated the players to protest. In fact, he did more than ignore, he attacked. So, I understand the position of the player and support it.

        On the side issue, there is a big difference between those adhering to philosophies of the KKK, Nazism and white supremacy as compared to a few men that chose to kneel rather than stand during the national anthem. So, it is more than just a ‘different group of people’.

        1. wilderness profile image99
          wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          "The president ignored the issue that motivated the players to protest."

          And there you have it.  The action take (by players) was so revolting that it buried their issue completely.  No one is talking about the issue, not after the massive insult.  Not smart, was it?  As far as being motivated by Trump, that wasn't the point.  The point was that a second meaning is now being assigned to the insult (Trump is terrible), a meaning that has no more connection than the first one did.

          "compared to a few men that chose to kneel rather than stand during the national anthem."

          Rather than whitewash it, how about just come out and say it as it was?  "compared to a few men that chose to disrespect and insult an entire nation and its people"?  Pretty much what the nazis do, except it isn't the entire nation with them, just a large chunk of it.

          1. Credence2 profile image82
            Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            People who have generally been  an impediment to addressing this issue and Donald Trump are on the same side. Trump as President, when he opened that big trap of his, made what might have passed a national issue. I am not going to look kindly when the President, representing the law, dismisses interests of concern to our community. What you call disrespect, I call courage. I still don't get why you are the 'entire nation', that constituency certainly is not 'my nation'. So, if we choose not to do things YOUR way which in your preference you seem to imply is no way at all, then we insult and disrespect an entire nation? Really?

    3. jackclee lm profile image82
      jackclee lmposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      Credence2, I respect your opinion and since you experience it first hand as a black person, I can't argue with it. The problem with the protests, the way it ensued, has distracted from the message. If people are upset by the injustice of police treating blacks...then they can do something more meaningful about it. Treat the problem in whole... As you know, many of these cases were not so simple black and white. Yes, there were some police over reactions that led to death of blacks. Those are being addressed by our court system, as they should. Some other cases, like Michael Brown in Ferguson was not one of those. This case has be adjudicated in the courts and the police was found not guilty. So mixing these cases does not do your side any favors.

      My advice, taken for what is worth, is for these players to do something positive outside of the NFL. Thry can start a foundation to help educate and help inner city youths, stay out of trouble, avoid confrontation with police and handle any disputs in court...By the way, these instructions are the very same I tell my kids when they were growing up. It is not just a race related issue. It has to do with repecting authority. When a person is stopped bu the police for any reason, they should follow the instructions of the officer. Thst will go along way to diffuse the situation.

      As a citizen, I have to believe most police are stand up people and they are there to protect and serve us. If that is not the case, we have a more serious problem than just race relations. Society works because of law and order otherwise, we will have chaos.

      The few bad apples in the police as in any profession will be dealt with by our legal system. They should not be used as poster child for the bigger issue.

      I hope you are comprehending what I am saying.
      This NFL protests will not end well. At the end of the day, it is a business. There are lots of $$$ involved. If the viewing public are turned off by these events, guess who will suffer?
      Just my two cents...
      Have a nice evening. Time to sleep.

      1. wilderness profile image99
        wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        I have no idea if it's true, but:
        https://conservativetribune.com/ceo-tak … 2017-09-28

        According to this the financial backlash has started.

        1. colorfulone profile image87
          colorfuloneposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          During a US Senate investigation of Department of Defense paid ads covering 2011-2014, Senators Jeff Flake and John McCain issued the following:

          “…DOD paid for patriotic tributes at professional football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer games. These paid tributes included on-field color guard, enlistment and reenlistment ceremonies, performances of the national anthem, full-field flag details, ceremonial first pitches͕ and puck drops. The National Guard paid teams for the ‘opportunity’ to sponsor military appreciation nights and to recognize its birthday. It paid the Buffalo Bills to sponsor its Salute to the Service game. DOD even paid teams for the ‘opportunity’ to perform surprise welcome home promotions for troops returning from deployments and to recognize wounded warriors. While well intentioned, we wonder just how many of these displays included a disclaimer that these events were in fact sponsored by the DOD at taxpayer expense. Even with that disclosure, it is hard to understand how a team accepting taxpayer funds to sponsor a military appreciation game, or to recognize wounded warriors or returning troops, can be construed as anything other than paid patriotism.”

          I got this little ditty via Jon Rappoport.

          I haven't watched football for several years.  But, I do like to watch a good play, and it doesn't mater what team or who made the play.

          1. wilderness profile image99
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            Snopes paints a little different picture.

            1. colorfulone profile image87
              colorfuloneposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              Thanks for the laugh, you actually got a snort out of me with that one.

      2. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Thanks, Jack. But there remains, in my opinion, a systemic problem regarding this issue. You are right, the cases are not always cut and dry. As for your advice, I can see the value in the foundation but it also has to do with “authority” respecting us. The police are not gods unto themselves, and must be held accountable when they abuse their authority. The disparity in treatment between blacks in whites in the encounters with law enforcement and the judicial system has to be addressed. So, while your quiet confrontation approach may be fine and justified, I still say that protest, as it has been as far back as there has been an American republic when there has been injustice that the general society chooses to ignore, is the fitting and appropriate medicine.

        I think race relations are a serious problem and can and will contribute to the unravelling of this society. So, it cant just be about YOUR law and YOUR order.

        The men protesting are not entertaining or performing seals but people that are a part of the community and sympathize with the issue and they are courageous for doing so. This is not a Roman coliseum and the men just gladiators, if people are upset that is too bad. Because, if the plug is pulled it is more than the Black players that will pay the piper as many of them are willing to do what they do to make a point. There is no game without those superb black athletes, so a lot of people stand to lose money. So, will society just listen to the message and stop griping or have the game permanently disrupted? That is my opinion.

        As a citizen, I have to believe most police are stand up people and they are there to protect and serve us. If that is not the case, we have a more serious problem than just race relations. Society works because of law and order otherwise, we will have chaos.

        The few bad apples in the police as in any profession will be dealt with by our legal system. They should not be used as poster child for the bigger issue.

        I hope you are comprehending what I am saying.
        This NFL protests will not end well. At the end of the day, it is a business. There are lots of $$$ involved. If the viewing public are turned off by these events, guess who will suffer?
        Just my two cents...
        Have a nice evening. Time to sleep.

    4. Misfit Chick profile image75
      Misfit Chickposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      I think the protest started for good reasons; and NFL players saw their position as athletic role models in the public eye - as being a good way to shine a light on the issue of racism. 'Taking a knee' was suggested to Colin by a Navy Seal named Nate - after Colin originally sat for the anthem in protest. (I think someone in here has already brought it up that kneeling is supposedly more respectful).

      There are so many black players playing football (and lots of people watching) that I think they came to see it as their responsiblity to do something.

      But, wilderness is partially right - since so many people are so offended by the action in the first place; the actual protest doesn't get processed. And of course, since so many people are so sure that racism or police brutality toward black people doesn't actually exist because of conspiracy theories (which is no-doubt one reason WHY these players decided that they needed to take extreme measures - black men like you are just LYING, right Cred?) - conspiracy theoriest feel entirely justified rejecting the protest and OVERLY-ramping up the issue as players (and people) being unpatriotic.

      Its just another affective diversion, which we know Trump is twitter-good at. He's pretty much accusing protestors of being unpatriotic in order to try and divert attention from his own misdeeds where race is concerned - and his twitter-stoked base are great at being loud enough so that nothing else but their shrill accusations can be heard.

      There really is no way to win this one without coming up with an entirely different way to protest and inform people. BLM is nothing but a conspiracy to extremists; but they also don't seem to be able to see or acknowledge all the neat 'free hate speech' rallies that have been held by white supremists since Trump gave them a soapbox to spew hate from.

      You're certainly right about the double-standards, Credence.

      1. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

        Greetings, MC

        Yes, indeed, they are human beings with interests beyond those of their "handlers".

        The people that were griping were generally unsympathetic or apathetic regarding the issue in the first place. No one wants to be reminded or told that there remain contention within our society for which those that are not interested will be reminded whether they like it or not. I have served in the US Military and I don't get the connection between what the players did and the general view from so many whites of disrespect of the country and its emblems. So, there are fundamental difference from the way I see things and how things are viewed by a large portion of my white fellow citizens? We all live and were raised in the same country, why is that their problem and not mine? The disrespect is only the fact of the absolute gall of these men taking a controversial stand on an issue that so many whites deny exist, from the beer guzzlers in the stadium to the President of the United States.

        Trump would have done himself a service by simply keeping his mouth shut, but again, that would be asking too much..... He has and always will be a prime example of cowardice in action.

        The reality is that those that continue to gripe are not looking for information, debate, they want the issue shelved and the people and their concerns to go away. From that attitude or platform we have nothing to lose by making the comfortable, just that much less so.
        ----------------------------------------

        "You're certainly right about the double-standards, Credence"

        Thanks for acknowledging this MC

  2. Live to Learn profile image80
    Live to Learnposted 7 weeks ago

    I think they are a bunch of people making a shallow gesture with no meat or backbone.

    Here's a guy who knows how to make a difference with his status and celebrity.
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/des … smsnnews11

    1. PrettyPanther profile image83
      PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      That's very nice. Where should Colin Kaepernick send a check to ensure that a black man walking away from a cop won't get shot in the back? What foundation should he pay to stop a cop from placing a weapon beside the body of an unarmed black man he just shot? What charity should he support that will convict a cop who shoots an unarmed deaf man or child because he "feared for his life"?

      1. wilderness profile image99
        wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        What possible connection is there to shooting blacks and disrespecting an entire nation of people?  Is an intentionally obnoxious, offensive, insulting statement supposed to make it stop?

        As far as a check, how about to the lawyer hired to present a civil case?  It worked once...

        1. PrettyPanther profile image83
          PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          I do not find his actions to be obnoxious, insulting, or disrespectful. You do, though, because you are making it into something it is not.

          1. wilderness profile image99
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            I make of it what it is.  Here's the problem: disrespecting the flag, nation and people was chosen as a method of gaining attention because it was offensive and therefore effective at getting the attention they want.  But those players don't get to then cry out that that wasn't the meaning at all; that the real meaning has nothing to do with the action.  Doesn't work for me and doesn't work for millions of others - a pretty large majority, judging from the posts I see.

            Yes, you can pretend that refusing to show respect for the flag isn't insulting but you will find few people that will agree.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image83
              PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              I am not pretending.  I truly am not insulted.  Kneeling has historically been considered a sign of respect.  The act, as initiated by Colin Kaepernick, has nothing to do with the flag or veterans.  It has to do with highlighting systemic injustice in our society. 

              You choose to be insulted because it's easier than addressing the core issue.  At least, that's my assessment.  I could be wrong.  Or, you could be unjustifiably outraged over a simple act of kneeling. 

              I went to a high school football game a couple of weeks ago.  Many people talked through the anthem. Some did not stand.  Some kids were playing behind the bleachers while the anthem played.  I didn't hear anyone complain.  Maybe some were outraged, but as far as I am aware, it has not been an issue.  Are you similarly outraged by this behavior?  Do you write letters to your local paper about the ungrateful high school football fans and unruly children?

              Just a few things to think about.  We can choose to examine why this act of kneeling was done in the first place, or we can put on our angry outrage cloaks and hide from it.  Our choice, right?

              1. GA Anderson profile image83
                GA Andersonposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                Damn Prettypanther, you really did throw out something to think about... the part of kneeling, (in general), being a sign of respect.

                Your commented earlier about what Kapernick's actual explanation was, and here is what he said:
                "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game."

                He used the word "pride," nor "respect." So, could the salute or hand-over-the-heart be taken as signs of pride and respect, and kneeling be only a sign of respect? Is it possible Kapernick considered this? Obviously if he only intended disrespect he could have just turned his back during the anthem.

                I know that is not how his actions are being interpreted, but it certainly seems like a possibility that could be considered.

                Yep, I think you certainly offered at least one thing among your "few things," to think about.

                That thought doesn't change my opinion that I disagree with his method, but it certainly offers a wedge of doubt to the chorus of disrespect charges. Hmm...

                GA

                1. PrettyPanther profile image83
                  PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                  I take him at his word about why he is kneeling.  Why should I not?

                  1. Patty Inglish, MS profile image94
                    Patty Inglish, MSposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                    "Damn Prettypanther, you really did throw out something to think about... the part of kneeling, (in general), being a sign of respect." -- I agree with PrettyPanther and it's always been my feeling as well. I am seeing older veterans from WWII, Iran, Afghanistan kneeling on high school football fields with their kneeling grandsons and sons who take a knee and keep a hand over their hearts. I'm fine with it.

                  2. wilderness profile image99
                    wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                    Believe it or not, so do I.

                    He refuses to show pride in a country that has paid more - paid in blood, paid in tears and in last place, paid in money - to end discrimination than any other nation on earth.  He shows no pride in a country that has made greater strides in ending discrimination than any other country.  He shows no pride in sharing American citizenship with the likes of Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, an American that dared a severe beating or death to exert her rights on that bus.  No pride in being an American with Daisy Bates or with Ernest Green, Melba Beals, Minnijean Truckey, Jefferson Thomas and Gloria Karlmark, American children who faced down the Arkansas National Guard to go to school.  Because there is still a minute portion of the oppression that used to exist and still needs to be wiped out he has no pride or respect in the country or it's people (it is the people, after all, that make up a nation).

              2. wilderness profile image99
                wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                "Kneeling has historically been considered a sign of respect."

                I can't think of a single instance where kneeling to the flag while the anthem is played is or ever was a sign of respect.  Can you?  I understand that it is just that...in other circumstances (before the king, perhaps, though that seems more obeisance), but not in the case where it is being used now.  No, it's not respect they're showing.

                Yes, I choose to look at their action and read it in the light given.  You pretend it doesn't matter what they do as long as they explain that it was only to get attention.  Let me propose a scenario:

                I visit a BLM gathering to give a demonstration on, say, cooking asparagus (God knows why they would want that, but say I'm there to do that).  I begin with a string of racial epithets and supremacist hate speech. 

                Think I'll get a great response?  I don't - the best scenario is a closed fist on my nose.

                Now say I follow that with a declaration that my rude statements were about Japanese whaling in the Antarctic and who would like to work with me to stop it?  Or who would like to join me in further racial tirades in the hope of getting someone else to stop it? 

                Think I'll get a positive response?  I don't.  Think I was disrespectful and hateful to the BLM?  I do, and it doesn't matter what excuse I give.

      2. Live to Learn profile image80
        Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        I was in solidarity with BLM. Still am, on the issue of being free from fear of police shooting when unarmed and un threatening.  We all know it can happen to anyone (we have video footage to prove it but it isn't as news worthy when someone who isn't black is the victim)

        Of course, the guy can't send money to a guy who is about to be shot (be they black, white or whomever).  And, maybe that is why he knelt. But, when you find out that your actions are having the opposite effect that you want them to, what do you do? Seriously. If you decided to do jumping jacks in mosque, during Ramadan, in order to highlight the importance of physical fitness would you continue when it was made clear a different message was being sent? If you pulled out a revolver in a shopping mall, in order to strip it down to show how to clean a weapon, would you be surprised when it was suggested you don't do that again? If you wanted to bring awareness to the plight of children with a specific birth defect, would making your speeches at baby showers be the most appropriate decision?

        Seriously, PP. Showing solidarity and doing something to make a difference are not always one in the same and sometimes our attempts at solidarity are ill thought and our attempts to effect change are also. The definition of insanity comes to mind on this one.

        1. PrettyPanther profile image83
          PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          You disagree with his actions. I have no problem with that. However, he and others who are kneeling are peacefully promoting their cause in a manner that inconveniences no one. You can still stand for the anthem. You can look the other way. You can boycott football. This faux outage from people who probably sit on their butts yacking while watching the anthem being played on TV is ridiculous. But, hey, it's easier to accuse Kaepernick of being an ungrateful millionaire than to thoughtfully discuss the reasons he is kneeling.

          1. wilderness profile image99
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            Not interested in anything Kaepernick, or any of the others, have to say.  Not after the insult they delivered, I don't.  Is there something wrong with expressing the opinion that they took the wrong action, that it was offensive to millions of people and that it destroyed anything else they wanted to say?  That's peaceful, too.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image83
              PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              Nothing wrong at all.  I'm just pointing out that you distorted the intentions of the protest to generate and justify your outrage.  You're entitled to do that. I'm entitled to think it's disingenuous.

    2. Randy Godwin profile image95
      Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this



      How long have you been black? And did you know it takes backbone to play in the NFL? roll

      1. Live to Learn profile image80
        Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Well, if I were paid millions to entertain and that was the sole reason I was paid millions. I'd do my job. Period. I'd do my own thing on my off time.

        As a side note, your comment would fall into the category of absolutely nonsensical; in light of the conversation.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image95
          Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          So you're imagining being a multimillionaire entertainer and you know exactly what you'd do if you were in their places. And oh yeah, pretending you were brought up in a black environment as well. You must have great powers of prescience to do so. I'm surprised at your lack of knowledgeable hubs on HP. With your talent you should really do well. roll

          1. Live to Learn profile image80
            Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            'Lack of knowledgable hubs on HP' lol Remember you said that.  Again, nonsensical.

            Since I live with and am related to those people I live with (in my own home) who are members of the black community I think i have first hand testimony, face to face. I'd say that is as valuable, if not more, than an article on this site.

            1. Randy Godwin profile image95
              Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              Then please point a link to a few of your best hubs so I can see for myself how credible your opinion is. Unless you're simply here to state your opinion, of course. tongue

    3. Credence2 profile image82
      Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      L to L, thanks for your comment.

      As for the story that you linked about the sports celebrity, his actions are most commendable. But, still a protest needed to be registered in regards to the concerns of Blacks and BLM, this one player's generosity has nothing to do with it. With as many whites that seem to be made aware and consequently upset with the statement of these NFL players, it had just the affect that I wanted it to have, and as a result it is more than just an 'empty gesture'.

      1. wilderness profile image99
        wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        It had the effect of raising anger at those players, and almost eliminating any rational discussion of the problem they were drawing attention to.  Was that really the result you wanted?

        1. Randy Godwin profile image95
          Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          Only for the Trump fans, which most of us aren't. TG

          1. wilderness profile image99
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            What in the world does the President of the United States have to do with a group of idiots insulting the flag?  Yes, I know he called them on it - are you saying that only people that listen to the President can understand the offence given?  I'd have to disagree, unless 80% of the nation is a Trump fan - that's the poll I saw and it pretty much agrees with my own observations.

            1. Randy Godwin profile image95
              Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              CNN just released several polls showing only 23% of people agreed with Trumps getting involved in the fracas. Just about his remaining base at this point. Of course, CNN always lies...

              1. jackclee lm profile image82
                jackclee lmposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                There are other polls that show different.
                It is too soon to tell.
                We will see in a few weeks whether the NFL caves or come around...

              2. wilderness profile image99
                wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                That's nice, although not sure where it's coming from; surely I didn't bring it up.  (I meant that 80% of the population is upset with the kneeling players).

                Happens, though, that I agree with the poll.  The President of the United States should not be interjecting his personal opinions here, any more than he should have commented on the supremacists comments.  The riot then, and the lone driver of the car, sure, but that's all.

        2. Credence2 profile image82
          Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          That is just the problem, Wilderness, there has not been any rational discussion and no desire to engage seriously from the rightwing side. Trump and his Attorney General has proven hostile to our concerns at every level So, we are not just all going to sit down and be quiet...

      2. Live to Learn profile image80
        Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Let me ask you this. We both agree that these players have a right to make a statement by kneeling. Do you have any problem with the general public making a statement by not supporting those teams? Because, honestly, people such as me do not have cameras pointed at them so that those players can make sure I know what they think. I think the only way the average Joe can make an equally noticed statement is to effect the pocket books and ratings of those who do.

        1. Credence2 profile image82
          Credence2posted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

          No, problem at all with the general public making such a statement, that is their right. But, if the NFL and the billion dollar industry are so fragile as to have its very existence threatened by such a benign statement, then perhaps it is just as well that it should fall.

          I find the sports industry an opiate diversion with no real significance, one way or the other. I don't have a great deal of time to follow the hoopla anyway, with the noted exception of the Broncos closing in on the Super Bowl.

  3. abwilliams profile image62
    abwilliamsposted 7 weeks ago

    PP what does it have to do with then? We all now know that the story of Michael Brown being shot while his hands were up in the air, never happened. All of this grew from a false narrative! There isn't any evidence of black men or of anyone else walking away and getting shot in the back, as if this is something routine which happens. Any cases of this happening are very rare, not routine.
    It is a shame that a sport that ALL of America once enjoyed TOGETHER and an Anthem which we ALL share, as ONE, have been impacted as they have, by one lone ignorant man that others have chosen to follow.

    1. PrettyPanther profile image83
      PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      Yes, it's horrifying that we can't watch our football without thinking about systemic problems in our justice system. Horrifying.

    2. Credence2 profile image82
      Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      "It is a shame that a sport that ALL of America once enjoyed TOGETHER and an Anthem which we ALL share, as ONE, have been impacted as they have, by one lone ignorant man that others have chosen to follow."

      Unfortunately, AB, I don't think that we are as much TOGETHER as many of you would like to believe.

  4. abwilliams profile image62
    abwilliamsposted 7 weeks ago

    Also, Cred, I'm Conservative and I peacefully protested in the streets of D.C. right up to the steps of the Capitol Building. I did it because the Constitution exists to protect you and I from an overreaching Government and I saw the President (at that time) as overreaching. You and I and every other U.S. citizen has the Right to "petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
    Don't think that on the football field is the time or place, it is doing more harm than good.

    1. Credence2 profile image82
      Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      AB, I have heard nothing but complaints regarding all protest coming from the left, from the Women's protest last January to BLM now. We are not all kumbaya or satisfied. You are right, the Constitution confers on its citizens certain rights. It is just that reason that the football field is an ideal place. It only harms those that are resistant to our concerns anyway and why should I be concerned about them? Think about it, AB, they did not do anything besides kneel during the anthem. Are we all consigned to just kuss the arse of the masters, lobotomize oneself to all that is unjust and unfair around you?

      1. abwilliams profile image62
        abwilliamsposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Have you ever heard the story behind the words of The Star-Spangled Banner? It is an amazing thing; our flag was intentionally targeted by a fleet of British ships. Men that wanted nothing more than to remain free, kept the flag flying through the night, through the rockets red glare and the bombs bursting in air. I think of them and their sacrifice and every other person that has ever sacrificed in order for us to remain free, under that flag, every time I hear the National Anthem or see a waving flag.
        So yes it a very big deal and it is extremely offensive when I see grown men kneeling, sitting, lying down, stretching, spitting, zoning out....during the playing of it.

        1. abwilliams profile image62
          abwilliamsposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          p.s.  NFL RULES!!
          The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league rulebook. It states:

          “The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

          “During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.” ........

        2. Credence2 profile image82
          Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          Yes, I have heard the story about FSK and the national anthem. Yes, it was inspiring, but most among us, we are still trying to attain to the kind of freedom and equal rights the anthem pined for in the lyrics. So, is it so difficult to understand why we are not so enthusiastic?

        3. PrettyPanther profile image83
          PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          Do you and your family stand every time the national anthem is played, on TV or otherwise?  Do you become outraged if you witness someone talking during the anthem?  Have you been to a local sports event and witnessed people talking right through the anthem and done absolutely nothing?

          Just wondering.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image95
            Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            I've asked the same question of them, PP. They're Trumping it......yikes

            1. PrettyPanther profile image83
              PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              I know.  I asked wilderness about it way back in this thread.  He ignored that part.  Actually he ignored the entire post so far, so maybe he missed it.  big_smile
              https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/143 … ost2913466

          2. wilderness profile image99
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            Outraged?  No.  But disgusted?  Yes.  Of course, those people are just careless or uncaring, while the players have done it very intentionally, with the aim to offend.  It's not that they don't particularly care; they are saying they do care what others think and are making a conscious effort to offend.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image83
              PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              Oh, okay.  An intentional action that harms no one, inconveniences no one, and is meant to bring light to social injustice is offensive to you, while careless Americans' talking through the anthem is not.

              Makes perfect sense.  roll

            2. Randy Godwin profile image95
              Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              This is a cop out, Dan. Do you stand up for the NA and flag at home every times it is played? It's an easy question even a trump fan can answer. tongue

              1. wilderness profile image99
                wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                Sorry - I'm not musician enough to play it at home, and don't own an American flag.  So no, I don't stand when it isn't played at home.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image95
                  Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                  So you don't have a problem with anyone but black football players not respecting the flag? You don't rise for the NA?
                  But do you rise when it is played at home? A vague answer from you. can you clarify? tongue

                  1. wilderness profile image99
                    wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                    Where did the black card come from?  Are you thinking, or claiming, that all the kneelers are black?  Because I know for a fact they are not - there are pictures that prove that. 

                    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ph … ORM=IQFRBA

                    I fully answered your question already; you can re-read the post if you didn't understand it.

          3. abwilliams profile image62
            abwilliamsposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            Hi again PP, the majority of the time, when watching football at home, I do not see the National Anthem performed. If it is performed, I am paying attention to who the singer is and I admit, even though I cannot carry a tune in a bucket, I am scrutinizing them! While I am in True Confession mode...No I do not stand up in my living room, until I go for snacks.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image83
              PrettyPantherposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

              Thank you for your honesty. So, why is the act of an athlete kneeling for a cause so much worse than, say, a fan talking during the anthem? Why does one raise your ire and not the other?

              By the way, the flag code does not require standing for the anthem, but it does forbid using the flag on merchandise.  Are you similarly upset about this?

              https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaBR0LnluVwb0Q34rBtEz-rPLTjRKPHx6NzlTPNuR2CPh4jf5ju_ihB3s

              1. abwilliams profile image62
                abwilliamsposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

                I just want to watch football without politics in the middle of it, as they are in every aspect of our lives it seems. If any person of any color feels oppressed in this Country, they should take it to D.C., take it to Talk Shows, take it to the printed papers. I, personally, do not think it belongs on the turf. If it turns out to be true that the Oakland Raiders O Line took this into the game, then the NFL is done. But then that will be a (W) for liberals, they've never liked the comraraderie  which comes with sports very much. Their mission, divide and conquer.

                1. Misfit Chick profile image75
                  Misfit Chickposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

                  Here's a few quotes that you obviously missed:

                  Misfit Chick: "There really is no way to win this one without coming up with an entirely different way to protest and inform people. BLM is nothing but a conspiracy to extremists; but they also don't seem to be able to see or acknowledge all the neat 'free hate speech' rallies that have been held by white supremists since Trump gave them a soapbox to spew hate from.

                  and:

                  Think about it... BLM holds peaceful protests, with most participating people believing in the message. (Trust me, the 'you're toting a conspiracy theory' response isn't working.) How would that make you feel? Frustrated, much? If you're someone trying to get your point across to people who refuse to listen or acknowledge you - what other ways are there to get the opposition's attention? They could bomb something, I suppose (or shoot a police officer, which has happened) - but, kneeling for our national anthem was chosen before something that actually harms people.

                  I had a girlfriend tell me that our national anthem was sacred. I told her that people's lives were, too. Its a stupid argument to be having."
                  ---------------

                  Credence: "The disrespect is only the fact of the absolute gall of these men taking a controversial stand on an issue that so many whites deny exist, from the beer guzzlers in the stadium to the President of the United States.

                  The reality is that those that continue to gripe are not looking for information, debate, they want the issue shelved and the people and their concerns to go away. From that attitude or platform we have nothing to lose by making the comfortable, just that much less so."

  5. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks ago

    And for of you self-proclaimed outraged patriots, please tell me you stand up and put your hand over you heart every time you hear the National Anthem at home, the same as you do at a public game. Sitting on one's butt at home during the NA is a disgrace to the flag from your viewpoint, eh? tongue

    1. Randy Godwin profile image95
      Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      My dad was a D-Day veteran--Omaha Beach, Battle of the Bulge, Germany invasion under Patton's 3rd Army--and he never paid much attention when the NA was being played on TV. I suppose he wasn't a REAL patriot....

      1. jackclee lm profile image82
        jackclee lmposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        You sure can twist something into prezel.
        Stick to the issue at hand.
        Do you agree with the protest or not and why?
        What is the end result? If any.

        Who will benefit and who will lose?

        It is not about Trump.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image95
          Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          Sure it's about Trump. Jack! His SOB reference was meant to rile up his base. And if you are any indication of his goal, he succeeded. Do you stand up and honor the Flag and NA at home, Jack. I noticed you and Dan ignored my question for some odd reason.(Not really surprised in the least)

  6. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks ago

    And yes Jack, I agree with their protest. Have you ever visited the Deep South in places where there's still plenty of inequality to go around for black people? Where one of the few things a young black man can succeed in is sports? Where even if he/she excels in a particular field, they have to compete with white kids or prominent and long esteemed families.

    All over South Georgia there are signs advertising famous black sports figures who were born in tiny towns where otherwise, they'd still be living a scant life in obscurity. You gotta respect them!!

    1. jackclee lm profile image82
      jackclee lmposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      The civil rights has been faught and won in the 1960s. Some of us refuse to live in the past. Can you point to one law that we are missing that will fix your grievances? If not then, there in no answer to your complaints. There will always be bigots and murderers. No law can change that. Get it?

      1. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        Yes, not living in the past? It seems that in our dialogue and with the sorts of things I discuss with you folks, the 'past' isnot so much the past after all.

      2. Randy Godwin profile image95
        Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        I suppose your answer to my query is no, Jack. I can only assume this as you're very lax in actually answering questions on these forums. Are they too difficult for you to understand? If not, what's the deal? roll

  7. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 weeks ago

    So you think You don't have to honor the flag or anthem. How convenient for for you, Dan. Yet you judge others who do the same. You are indeed a Trumpster! LOL!

    1. wilderness profile image99
      wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      What flag?  The one at a football stadium 1,000 miles away and isn't even shown on the screen?  You're right - I feel no need to express honor to it.  Nor to the one at the post office when I drive by it, although I absolutely love seeing the one at Camping World just a few miles from my place - it's 40X80'.  Biggest flag I've ever seen.

      Do you?

  8. colorfulone profile image87
    colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago

    Well, well, well!  Evidently, Colin Kaepernick recently donated $25,000 to a black queer feminist group named after FBI fugitive and convicted cop-killer Assata Shakur, reports the Daily Mail.

    *  Colin Kaepernick's foundation made the donation to Assata's Daughters in April
    *  The Chicago-based charity is named in honor of cop killer Assata Shakur
    *  Shakur was convicted in the 1973 shooting death of a New Jersey state trooper
    *  The Black Liberation Army member escaped from prison and lives in Cuba
    *  She was godmother to rapper Tupac Shakur, whose stepfather aided the escape
    *  Charity is a 'collective of radical Black women' affiliated with Black Lives Matter

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z4uAha8jHV

    A friend of mine said, "Hey NFL kneeler: Go play in Castro's Cuba with Commie Kapernick!" 

    Well, imagine that!  How dark does it get?

    1. Misfit Chick profile image75
      Misfit Chickposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

      Since my post was past over again, here is a splash of it that seems to apply here. How does Kaepernick have anything to do with the protests now since he is no longer a player? Are you accusing the players who are protesting of donating to this 'black queer feminist group', also?

      "...since so many people are so sure that racism or police brutality toward black people doesn't actually exist because of conspiracy theories (which is no-doubt one reason WHY these players decided that they needed to take extreme measures - black men like you are just LYING, right Cred?) - conspiracy theoriest feel entirely justified rejecting the protest and OVERLY-ramping up the issue as players (and people) being unpatriotic.

      Its just another affective diversion, which we know Trump is twitter-good at. He's pretty much accusing protestors of being unpatriotic in order to try and divert attention from his own misdeeds where race is concerned - and his twitter-stoked base are great at being loud enough so that nothing else but their shrill accusations can be heard.

      There really is no way to win this one without coming up with an entirely different way to protest and inform people. BLM is nothing but a conspiracy to extremists; but they also don't seem to be able to see or acknowledge all the neat 'free hate speech' rallies that have been held by white supremists since Trump gave them a soapbox to spew hate from."
      ----------------------

      Think about it... BLM holds peaceful protests, with most participating people believing in the message. (Trust me, the 'you're toting a conspiracy theory' response isn't working.) How would that make you feel? Frustrated, much? If you're someone trying to get your point across to people who refuse to listen or acknowledge them - what other ways are there to get the opposition's attention? They could bomb something, I suppose (or shoot a police officer, which as you have pointed out has happened) - but, kneeling for our national anthem was chosen before something that actually harms people.

      I had a girlfriend tell me that our national anthem was sacred. I told her that people's lives were, too. Its a stupid argument to be having.

    2. PrettyPanther profile image83
      PrettyPantherposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

      Let the character assassination begin....

      I'm not surprised to see you're on the leading edge. Welcome back.

      1. colorfulone profile image87
        colorfuloneposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

        character assassination - the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.

        No, I won't own that, but you certain may.

        1. PrettyPanther profile image83
          PrettyPantherposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

          I know, self-examination is difficult; projection is easy; Colin Kaepernick is The Devil; Trump is the God Thor; Putin is Christian Love.

          My sarcastic humor will be lost on many, but some will remember and understand.  LOL

  9. colorfulone profile image87
    colorfuloneposted 6 weeks ago

    LOL  lol

 
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