Our President offers an apology to countries we are not allied with, he does a 180 degree turn when he visits our Allies. Bare with us for now, Obama will no longer be President in a few short years.
I hope you all stay safe in the meantime. Only G-D knows whom this man will help.
I lived in the former Soviet Union countries for over a year. It left me with the ability to spot socialism/communism a mile away. It saddened me to eventually recognize the USA has become more socialistic than many countries we call socialistic, although most American's will deny this.
"Ask the man and he will help, ask the people and they will kill" LIbY I 1929
I said the same thing about bush 5 years ago...
This is not the same. I predicted Bush would win, Kerry is a nothing. More people are against Obama every time he opens his mouth and he opens it a lot.
Problem for this great speaker. His double talk is being understood.
Harvey, I am sorry for the length of this response, but I felt to answer the fear I see here. You may already know this, so if I am speaking to the already known, so to speek, then please forgive.
Harvey, I am just back from a journalists conference at the Hague, that I was invited to attend. I am putting together my own on-line e-News with two friends. We are trying it together, starting out, and have things in progress.
You honestly, kind of, have this a bit out of scope. This was a pay back project, to share technologies with the European nations. Poland was selected as a location, it is not final. The Poles' do not want it and have not voted for it yet, or given a final ok to allow it. They do not want it inside their borders. From what was said at the conference.
It is sort of Like LBJ and the Bell Corporation in Grand Prairie Texas. During Viet-Nam days. A Texan feeding Texas Business. A Pay Back!
The Missile defense ring for Europe is a joint company/German- American, ISO 20010 kind of presidential pay back. A make my CEO buds rich, kind of thing.
A Gift to his donors from Bush. With "some" economic stimulation for the US. But not much. Kind of like Cheney's contractors in IRAQ! From what I heard there.
The Joint Chiefs and the Navy Dept. Advised both Bush and Obama that it is un-necessary as the current missile technology used in our Nuclear Fleet already out-dates and can out pace the idea.
The Russians also have identical capability, in their Navy and it would Put Poland on the Hot seat Politically, draw attention to it. NATO, and the European Coalition is a loosely structured group, it does not have the resources to lead the world in Nuclear protection. Nor the Interest at present. It has bigger Fish to fry so to speak.
The Technology to knock down global ballistic missiles is already in place at cretin Army locations in Europe anyway, and between both the Subs and those mobile units, it is more than efficient, much faster, and we can get under a Countries defense shield before they realize we are there!
Obama needs an "in" to Putin, he needs a friend to try to make Iran deal, and it was an easy choice to go with the decision.
Putin likes it because Russia is just not recovering economicaly, and he can not afford to deal with a Cold War. But he will not hesitate if he is prompted to.
Putin needs a gross income gauranteed; a steady flow coming into Russia, and that's why he is Backing Iran's efforts, they are buying from him and He is for sale to Iran, for a hidden reason.
He is really looking for another type of Deal from Iran. He wants to make Russia the controller (a Monopoly) for natural gas going into Europe. Gaurantee a steady flow of income into Russia.
Hold Power like Saudi Arabia holds Oil Power.
There is much more that the two men are talking about covertly, that we are NOT being told. And the Money can honestly be sent other places to the good of the US Defense.
I think you are fearing the wrong thing. If it is needed, believe me, the European nations are well apt in knowing when and where and how they would need it to be done. They are much smarter than we give them credit for. They are not asleep!
What we all should watch in the Alliance between Iran and Putin is the economic manuvering, and Russia's ability to become a Natural Gas Monopoly for all of Europe. Thats really what Putin is seeking right now, or so I was told. He'd sell Nukes to get it! And This Iranian President is allowed to be out of control for some reason?
"Washington: In a major shift based on a reassessment of the threat from Iran, US President Barack Obama Thursday shelved plans for a missile shield in Eastern Europe, the cause of a Cold War-style row with Russia.
Obama decided to replace the shield, the brainchild of former US president George W. Bush, with a more mobile system targeting Iranian short-range and medium-range missiles, initially using sea-based interceptors."
http://www.defencetalk.com/obama-revamp … eld-22043/
The Polish and Czech governments are against it. I thought American's didn't believe anyone else could tell them what to do.
Russia is a US ally...the Cold War is over.
I heard about this last week but Fox just picked it up I guess.
Putin thought it was a great idea that the USA was no longer behind the missile defense shield that would protect Poland from Russia.
Tell them about Puttin, former Ruskie. At least you got out.
Western Civilisation in terms of morals and values has dropped down to round about the age of the Neanderthal. I know it's called individual freedom or some such. But I want my chidren and their children to grow up trusting each other and all other members of the human community. Enough damage has been done. Europe is nearer Iran but prefers dialogue to neuclear rockets - it's not only human, it's civilised.
Europe also though Hitler wasn't going to be a problem. Our President and his advisors know nothing of history. For your childrens sake, you should study your history. Obama's new world order has us being friends with Iran, Russia, Cuba, Venezuella, etc. Does that make you feel safe for your kids?
LOL, then how do you think, is it a good idea that Russia is not behind of the missiles on Cuba?
I'm not sure what you mean Misha. Are you asking me if I think it is bad that Russia is behind the missiles in Cuba?
Yes, I do.
Probably yeah, sorry my English. So, by the same token, American missiles at the Russian border are bad, too
And I don't think there are any Russian-backed missiles on Cuba, I think we settled this question between Khrustchov and Kennedy a while ago
But an American missile defense shield? Seems ok to me - I wouldn't trust Putin one inch.
The Czech people didn't want it anyway, their government was going to force it on them, so no apology required there.
Because we actually agree, I think. A defense shield is a good idea if you're a country close to Russia (lots of weapons too but we won't go into that) and for the record, I don't trust Obama one inch either.
Kinda seems like Obama is selling out Poland by canceling the defense shield. Poland is pissed - I'd be too.
The worst part about it was the day. Our Glorious Leader did it on the anniversary of the invasion of Poland. Is history an elective in Obama's election. Maybe instead of seeking out Marxist professors, he'd have done better to seek out some historians.
What concerns me is that the Russian Bear is acting like...well the Russian Bear again. The Bear pushes and pushes and pushes for concessions to see how far they can go. It'd be smart to draw a hard line now, it'll be easier to do now than in the future.
Agreed the timing could have been better. But only 30% of the population of Poland was for the shield; almost half was against it. So, the decision was a net-positive for Polish people. (And if Obama wisely invites Poland into the visa waiver program, he'll have won enormous support from Polish people.)
As for Russia...
Exactly what threat was Russia posing?
Is there another actor in the same general neighborhood that poses a more obvious threat?
Would action sanctioned by the UN against this actor be easier or harder with Russia's support?
The usual. Looking for an ice-free deepwater port. Uniting the Slavs under one banner. Securing as many natural resources as they can for the Rodina. Seeking their "natural" boundaries, whatever that means. Russia is Russia no matter who controls from Moscow.
Looking at their interests at a general level, it looks like Russia is just like every other country on the planet, looking after its own interests first. Those aren't exactly unsurprising goals, right? (I think they've long given up on the Pan-Slavic idea, though, and remember Chechnya isn't Slavic)
As for my other questions?
So you say. Yet they've cut off gas to the Ukraine and threatened Europe as well. They're pushing and pushing on the missile shield idea, which has no use against them since they have thousands of nukes. The only reason I can think of that they oppose it so much is because their nuclear deterrent force has deteriorated to the point where they're not sure if their birds will work.
And, no, it's not just looking after their interests unless by that you mean the conquest and subjugation of other nations. I'm sure that most of Eastern Europe would take exception to re-integration with the Russian Empire as well as the Ukraine, the Baltic nations and others.
Militarily, Russia poses the greatest threat because other nations, say in the Persian Gulf, can't fight a Western style war to save their lives. In fact, if the Russians have moved away from the centralized command and control system the Soviets were famous for, I'd say they are a greater military threat than at any time since they crushed Napoleon's Grand Armee.
The UN is worse than useless. It did nothing to stop the proxy wars of the Cold War, nor has it had much success in much of anything since. Because the permanent members of the UN security council have veto power, the position of the UN becomes irrelevant unless you're trying to score goodwill points with the PC crowd. Not to mention that the UN is a criminal organization, but that's a rant for another time.
Not sure if Russia is interested in military expansion in the Balkans - the days of moving an army into a country and stealing their stuff are fast disappearing.
If you are talking economics, then that is a different matter - there is a lot of natural gas passing through this area and many countries are becoming tied to Russia.
This part of the world is becoming a little crowded at the moment - everybody wants a piece. The EU, Russia and the US have made it into a three-cornered struggle for influence. The great game continues, but the rules have changed
Living in a prime strategic location does have its downsides!
Oh LDT, I am not impressed at all. I have no idea where to start, so I better leave it alone. The only thing I would like to remind you about is that Cold War is long over
The timing was bad - the decision announced on the anniversary of Russia's invasion into Poland.
LOL I don't know, you seemed to be disappointed with USA not doing missiles in Poland. I think the more you guys stay out of other continent deals, the better to everybody.
Poland has all the rights to be pissed, if you guys promised and now are backing off. Probably that's why Obama apologized. If this is the case (and I have no idea what case really is), this seems to me to be one of the very few things Obama did right so far.
Defense SHIELD - not missiles. Obama's apology went something like this - "sorry we have to leave you defenseless to those who threaten your existence, even though we promised we'd help you, but America doesn't really stand for freedom anymore - bye"
Ummm, first I don't think America ever stood for "freedom" anyway, I think it always stood for its own interests how its leaders understood them at the time. At the most part of 20th century it meant standing against USSR, but this did not necessarily mean for freedom.
Second, you left me puzzled how exactly this defense SHIELD works if it does not have missiles and such. Sorry my ignorance.
Sorry for my ignorance Misha. darkside is right. A missile shield uses missiles to shoot down incoming - and yes, we'd set up a missile launch ability as well. The Czech president is half communist and wants to be kissy face with Putin so he's waffling on having it in Czechoslovakia, but the Poles are fuming mad. And, more ignorance on my part, the threat is not Russia but Iran. Putin is supplying Iran with lots of military "stuff", so he's pleased to see Obama back out of our promise. If we have this set up over there, Iran is much less likely to fire on Israel because we will have a presence there without having to have ships in the Med or closer.
As for America standing for freedom - you bet your sweet butt we did. To bad I have to use the past tense
I'm not sure what you think a defense shield is but it's actually missiles. Missiles that shoot down other missiles.
And the best defense is a strong offense, so usually you don't set up just a missile defense shield without having something to throw back at the other party if they do in fact launch missiles. You have your own missiles to take out their missile bases. Even if for whatever reason you didn't have such a thing, the other side is going to assume that you do.
And before you know it, you have yourself an arms race.
There is absolutely no proof that missile defense shields work anyway.
Shortly after the pullback on the shield program was announced, Russia's government said PM Putin would meet several U.S. executives from firms including General Electric. Jeffrey Immelt, GE's CEO, sits on Obama's Economic Recovery Advisory Board.
General Electric may be the company with the closest ties to the Obama administration (if not, GE is second only to Goldman Sachs), and here we see the company benefiting from an abrupt foreign policy change made by President Obama.
Coincedence..? I don't think so...
LOL We back in the USSR always did stand for freedom too. Did not mean the USSR did.
And again, I think the wisest thing you can do on international arena nowadays is backing off from other continents and let them solve their own problems. If this takes a few apologies, this is not too high of a price to pay. Much less then what you are paying now.
"Poland" might be angry but that's the old right-wing that dominates the government right now (the Kaczynski twins). A poll showed about 30% of Polish people were for the shield, almost half (48%) were *against* it (the remainder undecided).
The fact is that the shield would do little to protect Poland; it would have protected Western Europe and the US by stopping missiles around Poland.
I think Mr Obama does right in calming the present situation because it is very explosive. He said not to declare war but negogiate. He inherited so much mess in every way. Yet he tries to introduce the health care programme as promised. People voted for him yet they turn against him for trying to get it through. I it cracy because it would benefit evry person but the rich. He trying to calm the arms race and confrontation again people turn on him. Yet did ever somebody turn on Mr Bush when he lied and brought not only the USA into war but also Europe.
I hope Mr Obama will stay a long time because he is the best USA ever had for a long time. I wish people would see this. Why don't people see what Mr Bush and his father before him done?
If we talk about colour than it is even more stupid. Nobody gets ask how they want to be born. So forget about being big headed because being white. It is manner, dignity and principles which counts - no matter what colour.
Why it is ALWAYS Obama supporters who bring up the color issue? What is this fixation all about?
It's about hiding behind anything but the issues.
Well, certainly not all of us, but why is it ALWAYS Obama opponents who imagine that he was really born in Kenya and will buy any sort of cockamamie story that says he's not American?
I suppose it's about hiding behind anything but the issues.
The things Obama didn't like about Bush, he increased. Start with the debt.
I'm not surprised he (Obama) pulled the plug on this. I believe we need the shield in Poland and Czech. Seems like big brothers have a history of invading Poland. We need to stay with em. Gues I'm a little biased...my daughter in law is Polish and my grandson has dual citizenship American/Polish. It was not a good idea to pull the plug on this.
I actually agree with Obama on this. The Polish and Czechs were not for this shield, it was their government who wanted it hoping to keep the Russians at a distance. The Europeans also didn't want this shield. Whatever consequences that comes out of this decision should also be accepted. I'm sick and tired of us putting stuff where people don't want it. If those countries end up getting nuked by Iran or swallowed up again by the Russians, then that's what happened and there better not be any fingerpointing at us.
The original missiles shield is based on high tech. futurist designed mode, it is costly and ineffective toward any threats irrespective from Iran or Russia. By changing the defensive shield into a time tested technology and actual threat posed by Iran short and mid range missiles, it indeed enhanced the security of eastern Europe from rogue nation missile strike and lower tension in Russia due to paranoid toward the west and divert some of the saving into our own economy recovery need. After all, it is a financial drain on USA to waste so much on this expensive defend shield just for a imaginary enemy.
Russia is not the enemy...the Cold War is over...
As the saying says...paranoia will destroy ya...
can we stop with the bloody xenophobic, stereotyping, bandwagon-jumping, scare-mongering, reds under the bed, narrow minded, bigoted, ignorant crap for a while.
thank you. that's all
Wait a minute. I thought that the plan had changed, that there would still be a missile defense system, just different than the one Bush planned for. Thought that Bush planned for longer ranged missiles, missiles Iran is not capable of firing. And that the new system will be for the type of missiles Iran does have and/or may be developing. Is that not so?
Since we can't use land based interceptors, there's a plan in the works to base the interceptors off Navy ships. It's not as good because the closer you can get the interceptors to the site of launch, the better. By doing this from the Atlantic Ocean, you increase the time the rocket is in flight and reduce your interception time.
Cheers LDT - the fires were a long way from here, but pretty devastating - we could see the smoke and smell them.
This thread is unusually civilised, so I figured that I might venture an opinion or two
Fire is scary for sure. Now we have more fires again in Southern California as well. I can hear the water tanker helicopters flying over head as I am writing this.
I can't fathom the world weather. Australia has already started getting bush fires only weeks after the end of our winter, yet California is still having fires!
We have had the wettest year on record, here - the end of August and September were awful. Thunderstorms pretty much every day
Wish that we could send some rain to our friends in California and OZ.
We get fires almost year around here in Southern California. Climate change has definitely brought changes to the seasons in the local mountains, and even the valleys here.
Maybe Californians should be good stewards of the environment and clear off the dead fall! Probably would halt a lot of fires.
We have the same problem in Australia, too much fuel on the ground.
Some people have a very lowly opinion of California, and really do not know much about our state really. Whereas arson has been an issue, many of the fires are naturally occurring from high winds igniting fires on power polls, which cause dry brush to catch fire. I can assure you we have some of the most stringent laws about clearing away dead brush. However, climate change is what is drying out our vegetation, and some people just do not get it. I am sure you do earnest .
As you know SweetiePie, I was bought up in bushfire country and lived deep in the forest. Yes I have fought forest fires, and most in our state are lightning strikes. The fuel problem here is not one that can be solved without back burning as well as clearing some areas. There is just too much growth to stay up with.
Heh, sounds like the floods we had back here in 93. We had friends calling from as far away as New Hampshire to see if we were underwater or not.
As to the topic. Well since it concerns Russia, it almost feels like coming home. The world was certainly a more orderly place during the Cold War, but I'm not sure I'd trade having those days back with the threat of nuclear holocaust.
Hey, Sweetie. Watch yourself out there, those fires can move fast. How's the wind been out there?
Hi Sweetie - we saw that on the news.
Hope that everybody is OK out that way - we pray that you have rain soon.
LDT - Only an opinion, but I am not sure that the Cold War completely went away. There seems to be a lot of shadow boxing going on at the moment, and jostling for 'spheres of influence.'
Maybe I need a tinfoil hat, but there seemed to be a little bit more behind the Georgia conflict than meets the eye - Russia letting NATO know that the old containment policy will not work. Unfortunately, when superpowers shadow box, people die.
Talking of NATO - I never understood it fully. We are a long way from the North Atlantic, here
NATO come from the North Atlantic Charter that Roosevelt and Churchill drew up to fight the Nazis and later the Communists. After the war it became the vehicle to oppose Soviet expansion around the world. Expanding NATO after the end of the Cold War was a mistake. Russia has always been a bit xenophobic and keeping NATO around only inflamed that tendency. Which is why we're seeing a resurgence in the Great Game today, I think.
Economically speaking we're all pretty much the same now. Socialist with nationalist tendencies. The good news is that such economies collapse under their own weight, much like Communism does. The bad news is that such nations tend to go to war to stave off the final economic collapse. A short victorious war and all that rubbish. I'm starting to think we're in an era analagous to the late 19th century, with nations jockeying for "spheres of influence". I just hope we can get some leaders in power who believe in economy of force and non-intervention. It'll mean less of our boys and girls blood shed in foreign places.
SweetiePie, you must be awfully close. That sounds so scary. Be careful.
Oh no, all the Great Powers will be in on it. The only question will be who are the Great Powers? The may not wind up being who we think they are going to be.
There appears to be a fire about twenty or thirty miles away. The others in LA and Ventura areas are even farther away. However, I worry about families effected by the fires because when I used to live in the mountains I went through an evacuation due to fire. I tend to worry about all the families that have to evacuate not knowing if their houses will be okay.
Did anyone catch Gadhafi's speech this morning? That man is really out there for sure.
He is still the same. Everything is a conspiracy of one sort or another.
Yes he is exactly the same, but what a joke this man is. Trying to pitch a tent for meetings. He is like a comedy act, although he is not very funny since he welcomes terrorists home with open arms.
The cold war is over, but it is not exactly over in Eastern Europe--so I could see why this would be a blow to our allies in Poland & The Czech Republic.
Nonetheless it is a very expensive diplomatic venture, and I don't think Russia has the time or energy to wrestle with Eastern Europe for a while... considering their interior struggles, both politically and socially.
I think it was a bright idea that Obama is terminating the missile shield program for Eastern Europe. Our mobile systems are what we've been investing so much in since the 1980's--they are more mobile and can thus be moved often. If we need to put missiles in Eastern Europe, we will with these land & sea systems.
I can't verify the anniversary comment, but that would be terrible timing if that fact is true.
Mobile missile systems will be moved to areas with the highest risk for nuclear conflagration--North Korea (Sea of Japan), and Iran (Afghanistan, Iraq and the Persian Gulf).
Don't worry about Russia, but this is a moderate/severe blow to Poland, the Czech Republic and Eastern Europe (minus Belarus).
That is one of the problems here, Texan.
A few years ago, when most people had wood-burning stoves, people would go into the mountains and collect a year's supply of wood. That cleaned up all the dead wood and minimised the risk of fires.
Now, most people use electricity, and the dead wood builds up.
Add to that the hotter and drier summers and it is no surprise that the fires are becoming more common
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