ISRAEL triggered a fresh rift with Washington over settlements on the West Bank yesterday by approving the construction of 900 new homes there.
The houses will be built on land Israel occupied in the 1967 war and annexed to its Jerusalem municipality.
White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said: "At a time when we are working to relaunch negotiations, these actions make it more difficult for our efforts to succeed."
Mr Gibbs also said the US objected to continued evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem.
Nabil Abu Rdaineh, an aide to Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, said Israel's move "destroys the last chances for the peace process".
Mr Abbas has said peace talks stalled since last December may resume only once Israel freezes settlement construction.
A spokesman for Nir Barkat, the Israeli mayor of Jerusalem, said the mayor "strongly objects to the American demand to halt construction in Jerusalem".
Israel's government gives Jewish people a bad name. I have nothing against Jews but I hate their government.
They do nothing to try to bring peace in the region.
I hope we stop supporting them so much.
Besides thwarting the peace process the support of Israel is killing the US economically.
I'm not an Obama supporter but it seems like his administration is standing up more to Israel which I hope they continue to do.
This support of Israel is one of the main reasons why peace will never be worked out in the middle east. The oil is another issue we need to address but until these two issues are addressed seriously we can never have peace.
Are you afraid to be considered an Obama supporter? Your ideas are left-wing, but every time you post you add that you are not an Obama supporter.
I think if you read closely you will find that Tim is socially liberal, while fiscally conservative. He just wont fit in that box for you will he?
Thank you That is a perfect way to describe my views!
I only said one other time that I agreed on his decision and that was to let people with HIV into the country.
I'm against him on healthcare, the way he's handling Afghanistan, increasing the tax on the rich, his disregard of small business and a host of other things.
I am no way left-wing or right-wing. I'm very independent.
commonsense should cause realization to many that that same support cost america her world trade buildings in 9/11.
You got that right Tim. And you are in agreement with a pile of Jews against Israel.
Yeah I hope the Obama administration stops listening to the Israeli lobby too. That would be the 'change' promised.
Here is some more information about why it is a bad idea to keep giving aid to Israel.
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries … asons.html
It's not that the administration is "standing up" to Israel as it is agreeing to the terrorist terms. The letter Yousef sent prior to the first bombing of the WTC demanded that the US stop supporting Israel. The land is Israel's. The Palestinians are a group of peoples that no one else in the region wanted. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc have all thrown them out. Now Israel is stuck with them. Funny how the only country that would have them are the villans here. They tried the same thing in Jordan...wanted to carve out their own country inside Jordan...it led to their expulsion.
I don't believe we have any right to "get tough" or "advise" Israel on how to manage their national security. The Palestinians are hated by all in the region. The people and countries who support them do so out of hatred for the Jewish people, not their love of Palestinians.
Read this and see if you still agree that we have a just cause to support Israel.
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries … asons.html
Please re-read my post....where did I say we should support Israel? In fact, Israel is more than capable of supporting itself. In fact, if left to their own devices, they would have laid waste to most of the region a long time ago. We have given them money to "restrain/bribe" them.
Please see bold type above as to whether or not you support Israel.
Please read this as to how well Israel can support herself.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … le1889.htm
This is also a statement to the misdirection of funds that Israel has incorporated.
You have a peculiar take on the legitimacy of Palestines claim to the land and how their being thrown out of the surrounding countries has anything to do with their claim on their lands.
I find my take on it historicaly correct, not peculiar. Yes, I said "Israels Land". I support Israel just as I would support any nations right to defend their borders and culture.
Plain and simply put the peoples we now call "Palestinians have been radicalized/high jacked by a group formerly known as the "PLO" A group that arrived in Israel after a failed revolution in Jordan.....
You may wish to check your historical take on the legitimacy of Israel by investigating the beginning from the The Balfour Declaration by England to establish a Zionist state peacefully to the 1947 UN Partition and suspension of the 1922 Mandate of Palestine to the Israeli taking of lands on the West Bank in 1967 and refusal in defience to the UN decrees to return to their own country borders as outlined by the Partition. All with the US support. Whether you wish to delegitimize the claim of Palestinians their claim through fringe groups and terrorist activity, Israel is in violation of these agreements and has continued to deny human rights to the Palestinians residing in their lawful areas assigned them by the UN agreements.
Hey, I think we jumped post...or blended two discussions! LOL
And what exactly is wrong with being left-wing and still being critical of a left-leaning President. We are not so monolithic.
Liberals aren't Democrats are....thats why...its all a matter of perspective.....
Nothing is wrong with it, I meant no harm by it and I'm not trying to label anybody (whew!). It just seems strange to talk about how anti-Obama you are if you agree with most basic premises.
I'm not anti-Obama nor do I necessarily think Tim is. It's all part of our liberty to be critical towards those in power. Many conservatives I know were not so gungho about Bush either.
But then again it has nothing to do with the issue of the forum topic.
In the last two sentences of your profile page, the word you are looking for is 'patience'. 'Patients' are people under medical treatment.
Further labels when used to describe vice limit are merely descriptive.
Noticed you never offered an opinion on the question presented in the forum. Just criticised others comments....
I've written plenty on this topic previously. And on the blockade of Gaza, and the Christmas massacre. And on the number of UN resolutions censuring Israel that have been blocked by USA. I didn't wade in this time because plenty others were saying it well enough.
Isn't Gaza on the coast? And don't they have a border with Egypt? So, stopping ships loaded with weapons is a reason for censure? Damn that crummy USA they don't do any good any where! They need to give you all they're money because you know whats best for them! Where do they get off working hard and thinking they have a right to live comfortable lives! Down with the USA! Down with the Tyrants! We the United Liberals of the World want it all split up equally and make the Americans work harder still! Power to the enlightened! Power to the progressives! We don't need no stinking God!
Leave us alone and worry about what you can do to change things. You obviously have no Idea or appreciation for the good we do thats why we should pull back and mind our own buisness.
My friend - I am well aware that US citizens are generous to overseas charities. I have spent plenty of time in America and have worked with many of your people overseas. Please try not to be so reactive/defensive about everything I say.
I give as much as I can afford to help things, by supporting the Red Cross, my preferred charity ever since my student days. I also write what I can, to try to change attitudes, towards the common good, as I see it. Of course I understand that all may not agree with me. But PLEASE try to stop shooting from the hip at everything that doesn't fit snugly into your idea of freedom and conservatism. I am a Scot who has travelled much of the world; I don't have to think like you.
He tends to blurt out whatever's being broadcast on FoxNews at the moment. It's not always relevant to what's being discussed here.
I understand that, but he's better than that. On the Religion forum he sets himself up as a shield to protect the less robust believers from the more aggressive non-believers. He's a man of honour and, I think, a tower of strength. All I ask is that he should sometimes think a little bit more before attacking people who might not be dangerous
Well you're wrong on both points. But hey, you're wrong alot.
No you don't and I doubt you could without some common experiences alot of the problems you speak of we're brought on by those people themselves. They have to be responsible for their own actions if we always bail people out it's not going to help anybody.
I've been to Scotland many times and it is a wonderful place you're lucky to live there. Liberalism and socialism aren't the solution to everything, far from it. But when you feel charity is called for what do you think would happen if the charities approached china or russia for support.
We are not a perfect people but we have come along way in a relatively short period time. Maybe if people would sit down and put their pride aside for a minute they might learn something, but maybe not.
No 'ism' is the answer to everything. I've long said that these tired old left/right debates are sterile. The best 'ism' is pragmatism - examining the real situation and acting to minimise pain and suffering.
The Red Cross, as far as I know, appeals to individuals, not governments. I have no idea how much support they get from Russians or Chinese. Probably not very much, as China is organised on a centralised model and looks after its own disasters in-house, usually with its army providing the labour. Russia is still re-grouping after the soviet collapse.
There is indeed a border with Egypt, but closed and controlled by Israel as part of the blockade. There are several hand dug tunnels under that border that are used to bring mainly fuel, food and medicines into Gaza. However, it's very dangerous and many young guys have died, buried alive, crushed or suffocated underground. But where you have occupation, or blockade, you will always also have resistance. I think you would do the same.
Why do these goods have to be delivered under such secrecy?
The UN has not done anything to Israel even though they say they have commited war crimes?
Why did Egypt close its border with Gaza?
Because the border is closed. Israel controls all goods in and out. The tunnels are Gaza's way of trying to wrest back a modicum of control.
The UN has attempted to pass many resolutions to curtail Israeli expansionism, but unfortunately most such resolutions are vetoed by US delegation.
Egypt does not want an influx of Palestinian refugees. Also they do not want the consequences of offending Israel who insist on the border remaining closed. The situation is just one of many complex ones in the region.
Only the US delegation has voted against UN resolutions? I believe the US abstained....13 voted for on the last resolution. The resolution was passed. Both The Isralis and the Palestinians ignored the resolution. The previous resolution was brought forward by the US. Calling for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon. It was unanimously approved. I could go on. It doesn't matter. It just proves my point. We should let the Israeli's take care of this. The UN is impotent and this is none of our business. We shouldn't belong to the UN anyway.
Whether that takes place is not a given based on the political climate and anti-semetic smere that will surely ensue. I think it will take a more economic tone as we struggle to support our own needs. Maybe a little of both will push it that way. I do agree that they should go it alone both Israel and the Palestinians. What if Al Quaeda or Saudi Arabia or some other rich coutry lends its' support to the Palestinians? Will we have the nerve to let Israel go it alone?
The Saudi's wont touch it directly. Neither will Jordan. Syria, Lebanon and Iran are a different story. The nerve? First I don't believe Israel needs any help. If we don't intercede, the UK and/or Rusia will.
Maybe you are right but I don't believe Israel can go it alone for very long anyway. They don't have the resources and resupplying could be difficult if we are not there to help.
Israel can definitely handle hamas....hezbelah... They can handle Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Iran is the key. They have the money and resources to support a protracted war.
If the US shys away from Israel, Iran will be more apt to attack Israel. Is that the Obama's administrations angle? I don't know. He does seem adament that the Iranians not have nukes. I don't think he wants to confront it directly. He may use the Israeli issue as an excuse.
Further if Jordan or Egypt joined in, the UK/Russia/US would step in. If left alone the Israeli's would simply wipe out a huge section of the Palestinian community. Get ready for it because its coming. The diplomacy efforts are over. There are lots to blame....you talk about how 9/11 wansn't unprovoked. Some would say the same thing about Pearl Harbor. In the end he who has the gold makes the rules...and writes the history. Those are the cold hard facts.
Well if what you say is true and Israel has handeled Hamas and other fractional terrorist group what has held them back from just doing it? They obviously are not worried about offending the US. I don't think Israel is as able to successfully wage this war for very long on their own. But that is neither here nor there. An opinion at best. I would hope something peaceful could happen but I fear it will not.
There is the difference of perspective. I see that the US has in some ways "restrained" Israel. You see it as the US has "enabled". The answer may be both....The US has enabled by providing finances and material support. The US has restrained by preventing what I think Israel would have done a long time ago if it were not for the US/UK/UN....Complete, heavy handed take over. Regardless of civilian loss of life. What's held them back? THE MONEY!
With the amount of fire power the Israeli's now have it wouldn't take very long to destroy hezbelah/hamas in a no-holds bar'd fight.
Can the I hate Israel crap and leave them alone. There are no innocents in that area all are culpable.
No innocents? So the kids burned by white phosphorus (an illegal weapon in urban areas) were guilty and deserved all they got? OK.
I have never said I hate Israel. I differentiate between Israelis (some of whom are Muslim or Christian) and Zionists, who are xenophobic supremacists.
I suspect that you are not yet sure of the differences between Israelis, Jews and Zionists. Take time, and look into this. It is quite important.
I wonder how you would feel if someone conveniently wrapped your existence into the absolute you have applied to them. We all need a little help and understanding occasionally.
The only solution is for Israel to go away and that ain't happening. I say we let Israel loose and let them sort it out between themselves. I'll bet it won't go well for the palastinians and the arab countries in general. If you pull the tail of the tiger and you get bit who's fault is it?
A member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party today slammed as "racist" President Obama's longstanding demand for a halt to Jewish construction in the strategic West Bank and eastern sections of Jerusalem.
"President Obama should not interfere with the rights of the Jewish people to live in Jerusalem," said Likud Knesset Member Danny Danon. "This ... is a racist demand, saying that Jews cannot live in Jerusalem, only Arabs."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vi … eId=116417
Likudists...the Israeli version of Republicans (unfortunately in power now).
Americans have such a hard time with history and it's application to struggles abroad. Maybe it is the educational system that tells us half truths and studies pro American slanted history.
The Middle East conflicts are fed to us by news bits and we all to happy to digest the results media and our government feed us. Jumping into a story such as weapons being stopped by Israel at ports is just an example of it. You have the Israelis claiming a moral victory by stopping terrorist activity as the greater good despite Israels occupation of Palestinian land. The terrorists have no rights as Israel did the greater good.
Of course Americas policy of negotiating with the terrorists overides the possibility of a conversation because every one knows how bad the terrorists are and Israel is merely defending themselves from the terrorists agressive actions. Never mind that a great wrong has been done to the Palestinian people.
The other fact that we fund Israel very well should have no bearing on the anymosity we create when it comes to garnering trust and support with the Palestinians. Never mind that this played a key factor in the 911 attacks and the wrong that was perpetrated on America. I love it when Americans try to claim unprovoked when blaming the 911 attackers. How is it not provoked with our unadulterated support of Israel even as they act out against our own wishes.
I think American support will slow if not stop under this administration. I think relations between the US and Israel will crumble under this administration. I think this will lead to a faith based war in the region. Sadly it may actually lead to a resolution. Diplomacy will not solve the issues. I say this because I don't believe either side believes in the others right to exist.
Unfortunately because of the disinformation and bravado employed by both sides of the issue I think you may be right. I think the real tragedy is in the way 60 plus years of conflict have developed no real solution by the two major players. Granted the US and Great Britain has done its share of bungeling to create the distrust both sides have on all fronts but it is their conflict to resolve. If relations between Israel and the US do crumble maybe the real resolution can finally begin.
Regarding history and education. Very little is taught regarding the Israeli/Palistinian issue. At least in relation to its dominance in world politics.
Money can't buy loyalty, love, peace or any other intangible.
Why doesn't Palestine have a seat on the UN?
Why is Israel the only member state in the UN that can't serve on the security council?
If Israel is violating borders why hasn't the UN leveled sanctions against them?
Sounds like to me you want to blame it all on America.....
Sounds like to me we have tried all to much for far to long. I say let them fight it out. Its none of our business.
I don't blame it all on America but as America is buying the outcome through donations to the Israelis then they should have either withdrew the funding over the years or bowed out a long time ago. The only thing America seemed to recieve for the money we spent over these many years is the individual politicians support of the Israeli lobby. A corrupt outcome either way and all on America for buying into it.
Of course it is not all America's fault. The international community and the main players themselves have a lot of blame to share. But sharing blame isn't going to resolve anything on the ground. The only way ahead is informed political discussion. Having armed the region to the teeth, stepping back and saying fight it out isn't an option.
At some point the gross financial support has to stop. The region is armed to the teeth and the fight is unavoidable at this point.
Nobody has had the cajones to go up against the Israeli lobby, what gives you any confidence it will happen now?
In short, YES. Israel appears to no longer be interested in "peace talks"
With luck and a fair wind, it is possible that Israeli Jews and other Jews around the world might just rise up and denounce the Zionists. I don't think this is likely to happen but one can always live in hope.
Zero chance while Arabs/Persians/Palestinians make negative statements regarding Israels right to exist.
CJ, apologies as I haven't read the whole thread - but you do know that the Arabs/Persians/Palestinians are right, don't you? Israel is an artificial construct less than a century old.
If other ethnic groups said "we deserve to take over your land because we owned it 2,000 years ago", they'd be laughed at - can you just imagine the upheaval if they tried to implement that in the US or Europe? Yet the Allies decided it was sensible in Palestine after the war. Can you wonder people are still objecting to it?
There are equal claims to the lands in that area. The problems are that parties on both sides refuse to acknowlege the others right to exist....its a problem. I just wish the US would get away from it.
I would rather the US provide a security guarantee to Israel, provided it doesn't instigate any land grabs (much like it does for Taiwan or Japan). Without a US security guarantee, Israel's neighbors will try to wipe it off the map (as they tried twice in the 20th century).
Its a sad story for the Jewish people. They were run out of their ancestrial land, kicked out of Spain, England, France, Russia. Practically anailated in Germany....
I just don't see these nations being able to pull off their threats. The Israeli's are armed to the teeth. Clearly the best army in the region. While the Israeli's would likely win a conflict the loss of life would be enromous(civilian casualties). That alone is a moral delima.
Palestine would also be an artificial construct. Before the British mandate, it was a strip of Ottoman land sparsely populated by Bedouins, mostly. There was no nation-state in modern times.
There's been a long-standing Jewish presence in the area; they didn't all come in after WW2. The Zionist movement was a reaction to the way Jews were being treated as minorities.
And I must say that people who question Israel's right to exist (or Palestine's right to exist) are not going to be credible in a discussion on how to resolve the impasse. Jews and Arabs both live there today; how they got there is really immaterial unless you're advocating ethnic cleansing.
Thank you, I really didn't want to get into that again.....
I am not of the personal belief that Israel should not exist. Everyone has that right. But I am of the opinion that Israel should exist on its own using its' own resources and not that of tha US. Let them exist but let them do it on their own.
There is somewhat of a symbiotic relationship. 75% of the money given goes back out of the country, mostly defense spending....most of which comes to the US.
But of course it does. The US doesn't just give something away without something in return.
There are requests from Israel for up to 400 billion. I guess when they got through the first 3 billion there is no quenching their thirst.
But if you are Israel what better way is there than to run a war on somebody elses money? Maybe the request for the 400 billion is in preparation for the inevitable war you suggest. If that is the case maybe Israel is capable of going it alone.......for awhile.
I don't understand why you just won’t say what you keep intimating...
No mystery is meant. You have strong feelings that Israel can stand on its' own without our support. I happen to feel they can't. We have gone back and forth on this and can't agree. My statement was merely a musing that perhaps you have a valid point what with Israels requests for so much money. Hey I am mostly on your side of this conversation. Maybe my style is what is rubbing you wrong. If it is I appologize.
by Ima Freeman 8 years ago
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