The Santa Fe HS Massacre By Gun May Tell a Different Story.

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   My Esotericposted 6 years ago

   For the 22nd time just this year, somebody opened fire on an America school campus.  While most of the others had an AR-15 as the gun of choice, this one was accomplished with a shotgun and revolver.  In my mind, that changes the discussion somewhat based on what facts come out.
   
   In terms of gun safety regulations, whether to more heavily regulate or outright ban semi-automatic weapons  is not this issue in this case.  Fortunately  one wasn't used here or many more would be dead and injured.  What was used was some type of shotgun (pump-action I am guessing) and a revolver the  shooter obtained from his father.
   
   Whether there is a gun-safety issue involved or not depends on the circumstances surrounding how this minor got the guns.  I am guessing the gun-crowed would disagree but common sense says minors should not possess guns outside the supervision in today's society.  So my question is why did this kid have access to a shotgun and a pistol to take to school with murder on his mind.
   
   There are two scenarios as I see it.  The dad had the guns securely locked in a gun safe which is kid didn't have the keys or combo to OR he didn't. 
   
   If the guns were reasonably secure and the boy had to go to extraordinary measures to get his hands on, then I don't see a safety related issue the gun control groups to latch on to.
   
   If, on the other hand, they were simply left laying about, then the issue is whether Texas had gun safety laws in place which the dad violated and can be prosecuted on.  If they don't, then Gov't  Abbott, if he cared about his school kids at all, ought to push for such a law.
   
   Only time will tell.
   
   
   FUN FACTS:
   The number of mass shootings in the US this year reached 101 on Friday.
   There have been nearly as many US mass shootings as days in 2018.
   
   The REAL reasons for school carnage from guns (there is no other source) according to Texas Lt Governor:
   
   1.  Violent Video Gamers
   2.  Abortion
   3.  Irresponsible Gun Owners
   4.  Not enough armed teachers (the sign of a sick society, IMO)
   5.  Too many school entrances
   6.  Decline of Christian Medrases in School (to be fair, he said "Decline of Religion in Schools")

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      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Another FUN FACT:
      
      Since 2009, there have been 57 TIMES as many School Shootings than the rest as other major industrialized nations COMBINED!! Can somebody tell me why please?

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         Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Conservatives will confess that even they don't know. The few that claim that they do say it is the violent video games, abortion and no prayer in school. Just dumb can you be?

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            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Dumb enough to think taking the preferred weapon from a killer means they won't kill.  Don't forget - this kid had a bunch of bombs made up and ready to go.  Some of them IN the school.

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               Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               No one has claimed crazies can't use another method of murdering besides using an assault weapon, Dan. It just seems to be the preferred weapon of choice.

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                  wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  No argument there - it IS the preferred weapon.  At least in the US, where guns are common.  Not so much in other countries.
                  
                  But if they will simply choose a different weapon, maybe one far more deadly, why take guns away from people?

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                     ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     Apparently the brilliance of our solutions included clear plastic backpacks to avoid school shootings and yet allows trench coats for what ,"style"?   THIS is exactly why the solutions to shootings will come down hard on the anti's ,  No common sense comes to mind.
                     
                     I have walked out a a few town meetings in the past because generally when the public is handed the microphone ;  the voices become blurred with such "brilliance and style".

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                     Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     And the "far more deadly" weapon is?

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                        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Really?  You can't think of a thing that is more deadly than a gun in a crowded room of frightened children?  Is that a liberal failure in general (head in the sand, irrational denial, etc.) or just yours?
                        
                        Gas.  Bombs.  Planes.  Poison.  Biological agents.  Fire.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           All belonging to high school kids, I suppose?

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                           MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           Once again, I agree with you, Wilderness.
                           
                           Randy, the answer to your question is "yes!" Anyone, even a school student, has access to the instructions for making gas or a bomb right here on the internet. The supplies for said gas or bomb can be ordered online, too.
                           Most older kids have access to cars, pickup trucks, or SUVs, all deadly when driven into a crowd. Planes would be harder to acquire, but I haven't heard of anyone except bona fide adult terrorists using planes.

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            MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah, what does abortion have to do with it? That is an act that should be between the pregnant woman and her doctor. How does it affect a student on the playground?

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               Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Yeah, what does abortion have to do with it? That is an act that should be between the pregnant woman and her doctor. How does it affect a student on the playground?
               
               This is just how conservatives think, they associate abortion with moral decline in society which is their explanation for this kid and his behavior. It is a$$ backwards reasoning, but that is their thought process

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      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      One sign of a sick society is not that teachers are/aren't armed.  But the number of people going on a killing spree is.  We have a problem.  Two of them if we think removing the weapon of choice will prevent killings.

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         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Come on WIlderness, your logic is non-existent when you say "Two of them if we think removing the weapon of choice will prevent killings."
         
         As proof, let;s take the extreme hypothetical that there are simply no guns in American society at all.  Are you going to still claim that people will be killed by them?  Your comment is simply wrong logically.
         
         Now relax that extreme hypothetical to one that use to be true - AR-15s were banned and no more could be purchased legally; in other words the 1995 ban had not been canceled by conservatives.
         
         It is a fact that almost every mass shooting in America, whether on school grounds or not, in the last ten years has been using a legally purchased AR-15.  Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell the world that 1) every one of those mass shootings would still have happened and 2) even if they did, that the same number of people would have been killed???
         
         No, WIlderness, thinking " if we think removing the weapon of choice will prevent killings." is not true is just wishful thinking on your part.  Removing weapons of choice WILL reduce the number of dead people, so long as we are talking about semi-automatic weapons.

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      GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Hi there My Esoteric, I have a consideration regarding your "Whether there is a gun-safety issue involved..."
      
      If you considered that the "minor" -- although it is true, was technically a minor -- was also 17, a year away from legal adulthood, and much closer to a general perception of being an adult, than a general perception of a 10-13 year-old, (or younger), that is typically pictured when "minor" is the descriptor, would that affect your view of needed supervision?
      
      And could you consider a "what if..." like this?
      Could it be that this was a gun-friendly, gun-experienced, and gun-educated family, (being from gun-crazy Texas, and all), and could it be possible that this son has hunted with his father since an early age, and always shown safe and intelligent gun handling habits.
      
      Could you also consider a situation where the above described son would have his father's confidence to allow him to go hunting by himself - which would also imply free access to the shotgun at least?
      
      And what if this gun-savvy and gun-safe son also had his father's trust as a defensive family defender if needed. Would it be unreasonable that the father allowed this son access to his guns - whether in a locked gun safe scenario, or in a closet shelf or corner storage arrangement?
      
      Of course I have painted the most favorable possible picture to ask you to consider, but since neither of us know - as yet, what the home gun access scenario was, if any of the above turned out to be the reality of this "minor's" gun access, would that have changed any of the anti-gun inferences made in your OP?
      
      GA

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         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         GA, yes, at 17 you are still a minor.  At 21, you are still immature, although not a minor.  At 30, males are still immature because our brains have not fully developed yet. (Females are fully mature brain-wise at about 25).  Males finally cross that threshold at around 35. (Those are numbers I read previously but turn out to about average according to this study - https://www.medicaldaily.com/men-mature … als-246716)
         
         I bring this odd subject up because with maturity comes a sense of responsibility and at 17, that is clearly not fully developed, nor is it at 18, 19, 20, or 21 for that matter.  That is why I consider, in terms of emotion and rational thought, that 17 is much closer to 13 - 15 than adulthood (which, after all, is just an arbitrary number not based on science).
         
         I will admit that "Could it be that this was a gun-friendly, gun-experienced, and gun-educated family, " is possible, but I would argue, not common.  But even if true, (and I don't know what the legal age in Texas is for a person to go wandering off with a gun in their possession), so long as the son was not legally allowed to have unsupervised possession of a gun, then yes, the father has the responsibility and duty to make sure they are safe.
         
         But, as you say, we don't know all of the facts yet.
         
         BTW - I accept the "personal defense" rational for possessing a gun, I don't buy it.  And I won't until the number of people accidentally killed or injured from defensive use of guns than those saved.  Right now what data is available show more people hurt by defensive gun use than helped.
         
         BTW - I am not anti-gun.  I am pro-gun safety.

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   Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago

   Abortions? Not enough religion in school?  Oh yeah, he's from Texas! 

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      Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Randy, have you heard the latest? The Lt. Governor of Texas says that schools should have fewer entrances and exits, that will help curtail the shootings. What happens if there is a fire, watch the students trample one another to death trying to get out? This is just a taste of the genius and resourcefulness of the Right wing for you. Not!!!! This man is nothing more than a clown who chooses to ignore the facts behind the assault.
      
      I fail to understand how people can equate a Bowie knife, Molotov cocktail  with a semi-auto in terms of respective lethality and subsequent body count? I know which weapon would prove the easiest to disarm from a perpetrator.

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         wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         He's right, though - if there is but one well guarded entrance there will be fewer murders carried out in the school.  And for that matter, probably fewer deaths due to a combination of fire and violence for that matter: modern schools are pretty darn good at fire suppression.
         
         It's a better answer than forcing killers to other, worse, weapons - the  taste of the genius and resourcefulness of the Left wing for you.

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            My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            While I agree with most of what Credence said, I am forced into thinking that one door accessible from the outside will help in our overly violent American society.  I don't worry about the fire aspect of it because doors can be opened from the inside and doors can be built that give emergency responders access from the outside.
            
            But, along with better gun safety laws for ALL states that don't already have them, Live To Learn hit the nail on the head with her comments on social media  below.
            
            What is most disheartening is that we even have to think about single doors and arming teachers where part of the blame rests squarely on the gun culture.  I must note, now that it just occurred to me, there has never been an access problem to guns beyond a few localities and and a few types of guns.  If you wanted a gun in 1800, 1900,  or 2000, you bought one.  But ONLY since the NRA et al started their money driven campaign to arm all Americans has mass-shootings, and especially school shootings, ever been a problem in American history. 
            
            Why now?  Why not Then when guns were just as easily accessible?  What has changed between the 1918s (when mass shooting was limited to organized crime) and the 2018s when mass murder of school kids is now ubiquitous?
            
            In my opinion it is two things, social media and the NRA-sponsored love affair with guns.

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               MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               I agree with LTL's assessment on bullying (and it seems I put this comment on the wrong part of the thread). It was brought out this morning that the young man was being bullied. There were no details as to the type and duration, so I'll withhold comment on that until more information is released. But society, especially school officials, seems to be very tolerant of bullying. Quite often the bullied gets punished along with the bullies for trying to defend himself. School officials look the other way because they don't want trouble in school. There are laws requiring "specified reporters" of suspected sex crimes. There should be laws requiring specified reporters to report suspected bullying to outside officials. Bullying should not be handled in-house because some kids can get away with it for fear of upsetting their affluent and influential parents. Constant bullying can cause even a good kid to snap out of desperation.

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         Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         I'm never surprised by the Texas rightwingers, Cred. That's where they detest the theory of evolution and swear Noah had two of each animal on the ark. I don't know if they think dinosaurs were also included on the big boat as in Tennessee, but I wouldn't be at all surprised. I do know some smart folks from Texas, but they vote for the left, as you may imagine.

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   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   
   
   Remember , these are your emotionally entitled children killing and maiming each other from one end of America to the other and not the law abiding gun culture ,  AND all of the red flags of the anti-second amendment crowd waving were ignore by this killer ,  using a shotgun and a sixgun huh , I'll bet that just breaks the heart of the anti-"assault weapons"  crowd ?     I mean ..............How could he ?

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      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Well, that was useful ... I think.

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   Live to Learnposted 6 years ago

   Personally, I think what is sad is that a potential elephant in the room is completely ignored when it comes to school shootings. I think social media plays a major role in the problem. Kids who feel ostracized, or bullied, have little respite left. Now, 24-7, what they perceive as slights, bullying, embarrassing situations or intimidation stalks them on Facebook and Twitter.
   
   The cause for violence needs to be identified and addressed. Otherwise, if guns are removed from the equation something possibly more deadly will replace them. Kids are dying and we need to look at the environment, itself, which is breeding the violence.

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      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Well said!!

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   A MarieBposted 6 years ago

   Their access to guns (any) is the problem. Removing their access to guns, The so-called "adults" are the ones who created the "environment".........

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      MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      A Marie-B, would you prefer bombs or the student's driving his car into a crowd? How about sarin? The formula is on the internet, you know. Or do you?

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   joeyallenposted 6 years ago

   Get a brain troll.

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      Randy Godwinposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      What's a "brain troll"?

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   Credence2posted 6 years ago

   The reality is that we cannot shelter everyone from life itself. I have been bullied as a nerd, spaz or geek in jr and sr. high, I could not react by getting a gun and shooting my classmates. I blame the parents, it is their job to monitor children carefully, looking for signs of a troubled personality. If you want to have kids to raise, it is going to take work and follow through, particularly today when there are so many negative influence that abound. In times like these, such precautions are unavoidable. Having a 38 caliber handgun lying around on the kitchen table does not help.
   
   In spite of all the other ways that a killer can dispense with his prey, most of these other methods mentioned require having a level of premeditation. Sarin, hemlock, bombs have to be set up, making the risk of detection more likely. Only a firearm can be so lethal and be used by a perpetrator in the heat of passion.
   
   Conservatives could be right (gasp) about cultural influences explaining why stuff like this was never thought of in 1918 but is ubiquitous today. But, I have to tell them that the Genie is out of the bottle and the milk spilled and it is not going back to the Waltons or The Brady Bunch. Stifling the free  flow of information ain't going to happen.  Parents: your kids are your responsibility, so do your job....
   
   Conservatives want no actions taken in regards to gun ownership and I don't want to compromise my access to adult prerogatives,electronic communication, literature, etc, just to accommodate the needs and concerns of minors. So,the parents are the linchpin that allow us all to be satisfied.

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      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      "I blame the parents, it is their job to monitor children carefully, looking for signs of a troubled personality."
      
      You mean things like being a teenager? 
      I doubt very many parents are qualified to do psych exams, whether on their own children or some other.
      
      "Only a firearm can be so lethal and be used by a perpetrator in the heat of passion."
      
      Just saw where some guy drove his car into a restaurant, killing two and injuring more.  It could have been a group of 50 kids waiting for a school bus.  But beyond that, the killers in mass murders don't do it in the heat of passion - they do it after weeks or months of planning.  And this one had the time to make, and distribute, multiple bombs - while making bombs that aren't used is unusual, it gives a lie to the idea that one day he jumped up, grabbed a gun and went off to kill.

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         Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Yep, Wilderness, it is tough, but monitoring your kids is the job. Being a teenager today is more than  clarasil, malt shops, prom dates,etc. Now that homicides are a serious issue, the bar has to be raised.

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            My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Ahhh, I remember those days other than I didn't need clarasil, thank god, we didn't have malt shops, and I went to, count them, one prom (it is tough being shy).

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               MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Things really are different today. No wonder this generation feels "entitled." I went to three proms--we called them banquets then because it was a sit-down dinner followed by a dance held elsewhere. We basically earned our rights to go to the senior banquet and dance. Our sophomore year we sophs dressed up in the theme costume and acted as serving staff to the upper class banqueters, and only those willing to serve were allowed to attend and watch the others have fun while we toiled. Our junior year we had the responsibility of  choosing the banquet theme, planning the banquet, choosing the servers from the sophomore class, and EARNING the money to pay for the banquet. The Fairy Godmother did not give us the funds to make it happen. We earned the money through countless fundraisers:  selling advertising, bake sales, rummage sales, etc. We were allowed to attend the banquet, but we still did not hold the rank that we looked forward to the next year. Then as seniors, we enjoyed the banquet and the dance afterward unencumbered. Oh yes, juniors were allowed to go to the dance, but the sophomore serving staff were not.
               
               My point in telling this is that nothing was handed to us until we had paid our own dues by working our way up, and we really took pride in when we finally arrived.
               
               Today mom and dad ante up on expensive clothes, shoes, limousines, etc. simply because their children exist, and their job is to make these precious darlings happy.
               
               You know what, Baby boomers worked hard for what they accomplished. starting as kids. Why did we turn on ourselves by making it too easy for our own kids and the succeeding generations afterwards?

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                  GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Holy cow MizBejabbers, I think we may have 'clashed' once or twice before, (not sure, I may be confusing you with Jean), but, after this...
                  
                  "My point in telling this is that nothing was handed to us until we had paid our own dues by working our way up, and we really took pride in when we finally arrived.
                  
                  Today mom and dad ante up on expensive clothes, shoes, limousines, etc. simply because their children exist, and their job is to make these precious darlings happy.
                  
                  You know what, Baby boomers worked hard for what they accomplished. starting as kids. Why did we turn on ourselves by making it too easy for our own kids and the succeeding generations afterwards?"
                  
                  ... can I join your choir?
                  
                  But first, I must confess my sins ...  "Today mom and dad ante up on expensive clothes, shoes, limousines, etc. simply because their children exist, and their job is to make these precious darlings happy."
                  
                  I did this. And, in the back of my mind I knew better, but, because all my kid's friend's parents were doing it, (the prom and limo stuff),  I still did it too. Even as good as I think my kid are, my enabling was still a mistake I regret.
                  
                  GA

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                     MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     No, GA, you aren't mistaken because we have clashed before. Conservatives mistake me for a bleedin'-heart liberal, and liberals mistake me for a rabid conservative. I am neither. I was raised as a self-sufficient moderate who was taught to help those truly in need. I am still a moderate. If you would like to join the choir of a moderate, I would be happy to have you.

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                        GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        It sounds like we may already be in the same choir. MizBejabbers, I'm the Purple one - front row center. Blue is on my left, and Red on my right. I can sway to either side at any time. :-)
                        
                        GA

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                        My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        I seem to have that problem to.  Nobody likes me and I am getting paranoid, lol.

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               Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

               ME, ah yes, those memories that bless and burn.
               
               No problems with zits? You were lucky.
               
               I exaggerated about the malt shop, that was the stuff of Andy Hardy movies, well before my time. Being a creature of the late sixties and early seventies, we did not congregate in "malt shops". We were in to underground FM rock, everything from  "Lay Lady Lay" to "Nights of White Satin" and all in between. We were captivated by "Billy Jack" and "A Clockwork Orange".
               
               Did not have a "super stock Dodge", a decade too early. But I did have a 1962 Chrysler Newport with a push button transmission, right out of "The Jetsons", as a first car.
               
               Missed the Prom as a geek. Too busy trying to make money, my part time after school job paid $1.60/hour and it was burning holes in my pocket.
               
               Shootings in high school? The thought had never crossed anyones' mind.

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                  My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Ah yes, the Moody Blues, my favorite group.
                  
                  I had a Plymouth Fury with the same transmission.  When driving to college there was this nice long hill I could put it in neutral and coast, to about 80 MPH.  When it was time to slow down, I would punch drive ... until I didn't and punched reverse instead.  Thank goodness I have quick reactions and a slow transmission.
                  
                  Ditto on the shootings.

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            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Credence, I fully agree that most parents (>50%) are doing a very poor job of raising their children.  Much of that is because they are not home to share the lives of those children, but there are other reasons as well. 
            
            I don't see that changing any time soon, either.  So we either face reality and decide that parents are not responsible for every action of a 16-17 year old half-adult or forbid people to have children.

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               ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               All of the above ?

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               Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Wilderness, the third choice is that parents or legal guardians are to be made more rigidly responsible for the errant actions that their children do. I sympathize with the plight of parents today, but that is just one possible solution to abuse of firearms by minors, owned by adults that is acceptable to me without taking anyone's guns which is a problem for you.

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         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         In this day and age, especially if they have access to your guns, parents must be hyper-aware of their kids.  Only parents are better psychologists because they are (or should be) around the kids day-in and day-out and not just an hour every two weeks.
         
         However, I do agree with your assessment in the last paragraph Wilderness.  But while guns are not the ONLY implements, they are the most common.

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            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Kind of a problem when the parent has court ordered visitation for 2 hours a month.  Or both of them work every day, then come home and take care of home duties.  By the mid-teens I think most parents are lucky to have a few hours a week with their children - time to talk, to play, to be a parent.
            
            They are indeed (the most common)!  And if we push killers to matches or bombs or something else then that will be the most common.  Not sure of the point.

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               ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               I'm not so sure we can blame working parents  , latch key kids , not  as much as blaming parents who're disconnected from morality ,  manners ,  and good old fashioned "old school " disciplining .    Since the WW II end, parents have often both worked  , I'm 64 and both my parents worked  everyday , was that the best for us , no.     But we also dealt with a different world of discipline , morals ,  obviously there was no social media , no  wide screen TV , no smart phones .   
               
               It's about learned behaviors , learned morals or the lack thereof , it's far more about  this than any other reason at all   I think .   Too many times as I observe families in public , I think it's about children that learn bad manners and behaviors from bad parents .

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                  GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh hell, twice in one thread...  ^5
                  
                  (How's my singing voice?)
                  
                  

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   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   
   
   There are perhaps too many  gun experts on hubpages ,
   But the meaning  the agenda and the solutions to social /cultural problems is the same . Mindless .
   
   Until you all start to face reality  the shootings will continue , It's not a problem with an iron object  its a problem of the mind , Too Deep ? Perhaps only too deep for the minds here ?

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   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   

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