Can You Explain the Great American Political Divide?

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  1. My Esoteric profile image91
    My Esotericposted 7 months ago

    A recent poll caught my attention because of the detail it offered.  While it is just a single poll, it does represent what I see in many other polls. What it shows is those on the Right see the world very differently than the rest of America - Why Is That?

    (Since only a couple demographics have a large "Don't Know" response, to save space I will only provide the "Approve" results)

    Q: Do You Approve of President Trump's Job Performance?

    Overall -
    Strongly or Somewhat Approve: 39% (right now most polls are a couple of points higher)

    Male - Approve 44%
    Female - Approve: 33% Why 11 points lower??

    Age -
    Gen Z: Approve: 21% (with 15% Don't Know)
    Millennial: Approve: 28%
    Gen X: Approve: 37%
    Boomers: Approve: 46%

    Party -
    Dem: Approve: 10%
    Ind: Approve: 32%
    Rep: Approve: 82% (what is it they don't see that few others do see?)

    The Liberal, Moderate, Conservative reflects the Party results.

    Race -
    White: Approve: 44%
    Hispanic: Approve: 25%
    Black: Approve: 11%
    Others: Approve: 21% (10% Don't Know)  (What do minorities see that Whites Don't?)

    The differences are striking yet we are all watching and listening to the same thing.  Why does between 55% and 89% of Americans perceive Trump one way while remainder see Trump the opposite?

    1. promisem profile image96
      promisemposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      Two words: Fox News.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      " What it shows is those on the Right see the world very differently than the rest of America"

      Given that the country is pretty much split evenly left and right, I'd have to say that those on the Left see the world very much differently than the rest of America. big_smile

      It isn't the political divide that is harming America (that has always been there), it is the massive refusal to work with anyone not of your party/ideology.  A tremendous refusal to compromise or accept anything that isn't exactly what you want.  (Not meaning "you" as you personally, but only as the average man in the street and even more so, our politicians in their never ending power struggle).

      Because of this, and the screams when we don't get our way, the divide appears much greater than it did in the past - where the country used to pull together and find a solution acceptable to all now we just scream until we get our way.

      1. My Esoteric profile image91
        My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Your math confuses me, Wilderness.  How do you get "pretty much split evenly left and right" when the data shows something entirely different??

        But I would argue that those days "where the country used to pull together" with the Gingrich and Tea Party revolution.  That is the only thing that has changed since "then" and "now".

        The Democratic party is no more liberal now than it was in the 1960s in reality.  It only appears that way because much of the Conservative wing were either voted out of office or joined the Republican party.  Consequently, the very liberal elements sound louder.

        The Republican party, on the other hand, is much more conservative than what it was in Nixon's, or even Reagan's day.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          "How do you get "pretty much split evenly left and right" when the data shows something entirely different??"

          You mean the math from the last presidential election that shows a very nearly perfect split?  As in 51%-49% or some such?  That math?

          The only reason the Republican party SEEMS more conservative than it used to be is because it has to fight off the increasingly radical Democratic party as it moves ever further left and closer to European style socialism.

          1. My Esoteric profile image91
            My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            No, I am referring to the CURRENT numbers as reflected in the above poll.

            And there is no SEEMs about it.  The reactionary Right has driven out almost all moderate and liberal Republicans.

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              Ah.  And you think tens of millions of conservatives have become liberals because you don't like Trump and assume that everyone will change their ideology because they don't like him either.

              Needless to say I would disagree with that concept.  I've made no bones about Trump and that I don't like the man.  But it hasn't made me embrace liberal principles, and won't - no single person can do that to ANY thinking person.  You may define your principles according to what Nancy Pelosi or some other liberal thinks you should, but I prefer to use my own mind.

              1. My Esoteric profile image91
                My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                Where did I say "tens of millions of conservatives have become liberals" - why do you keep making things up Wilderness??

                And in any case you are deflecting, aren't you.  The question is WHY:

                * Women dislike Trump more than Men
                * Gen Z and Millennials dislike Trump more than Gen X and Boomers
                * Democrats and Independents dislike Trump a LOT more than Republicans
                * Minorities dislike Trump much more than Whites

                Answer those questions, Wilderness rather than deflecting to something that is untrue and irrelevant.

                1. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  Your whole premise seems to be that if you don't like Trump you are a liberal.

                  That is patently false, as I tried to point out.  Disliking one person, or 20, does not set the stage for approval of an entire platform of political opinions. 

                  If Pelosi or Hillary was suddenly arrested for rape of school children would you immediately become a Conservative?  Would you then call for dismantling the welfare system and ObamaCare?  Would you approve of a border wall and strong border control because of Pelosi's transgression?  I doubt it.

                  If you could but climb off the anti-Trump wagon you might recognize that there are other differences out there - that the whole world does not revolve around hatred of Donald Trump.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image91
                    My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    Deflection Wilderness. Let me try again:

                    The question is WHY:

                    * Women dislike Trump more than Men
                    * Gen Z and Millennials dislike Trump more than Gen X and Boomers
                    * Democrats and Independents dislike Trump a LOT more than Republicans
                    * Minorities dislike Trump much more than Whites

                    Answer those questions, Wilderness rather than deflecting to something that is untrue and irrelevant and you will be able to stay on topic.

        2. Live to Learn profile image80
          Live to Learnposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          I'm afraid the democratic party has shifted quite a bit to the left of where it was not so long ago.

          1. promisem profile image96
            promisemposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            I agree. Do you also think the Republican party has shifted quite a bit to the right?

            1. MizBejabbers profile image89
              MizBejabbersposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              Promisem, I think you aimed that  question at LTL, but I lived through the 1960s and in my opinion, Barry Goldwater was a radical right for his day compared to the more moderate Republican, William Scranton, and the more liberal Republican, Nelson Rockefeller. (Yes, Virginia, there was such a thing as a liberal Republican in the 1960s.) Since Goldwater lost by a landslide to Democrat Lyndon Johnson, the party didn't start moving to the extreme right until the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the other so-called "Moral Majority" started making noise and attracting the fundamentalists. It's just my opinion, but I believe that was a movement to counteract the liberal movements of the Lyndon Johnson era.

              1. promisem profile image96
                promisemposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                Excellent point, Miz. I also lived through the '60s. It made me believe we go through generational swings in politics between left and right.

                The liberal '60s eventually led to a big swing toward the right. We're seeing the worst of that swing today in a radical right.

                It's motivating new life and converts in the left. I would be surprised to see in another 10 years a return to the kind of radical leftism we saw in the '60s.

                1. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  "It's motivating new life and converts in the left."

                  I would say that it's going both ways - a big swing to the left (with Obama in office) is motivating converts to the right.

                  Some of the reasons I say that: the increasing efforts to disarm the country.  Increasing efforts along the LGBT front, particularly including the use of "wrong" restrooms and dressing rooms for transgenders.  The absolute refusal to address immigration concerns.  Ever increasing efforts to redistribute wealth from those that earned it to those that didn't.

                  It works both ways, of course - the rights continued efforts to ban all abortions is driving people left, just as you say, and so are increasing efforts to force Christian values onto everyone else.  The result may well be the disenfranchising of anything but moderates, with only a few loud voices left at the fringes, albeit very loud ones.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image80
                    jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    I agree with most of what you stated except for the abortion. The “right” are not trying to ban abortion, but just trying to restrict it. It is the left that is pushing the abortion to the limit of late term and even abortion at birth.

            2. Live to Learn profile image80
              Live to Learnposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              I saw a chart the other day that showed where voters stood on two things. Identity politics and fiscal issues. They showed people who identified as Republican and those who identified as democrats. It was a little scary. The Republican dots were all over the place fiscally (conservative and liberal policy being fairly evenly represented), but mostly out of the part that embraced identity politics. The Democrat dots were sharply clumped in the liberal policy and identity politics part. 

              That chart appeared to back my beliefs that Republican voters are basically middle of the road and democrats have moved further left over the years.

              Sure, each side has loud mouths we look to in order raise an eyebrow at the other side but I think there are more loud mouths on the left creating a negative perception of the democratic party.

              1. My Esoteric profile image91
                My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                Sounds like an interesting chart. I am not sure the Ds have moved more liberal over time (consider the 1960s as a baseline). I think it is because the conservative wing of the Ds either lost their seats or joined the Republicans/Independents.

                2018, however, may have moved the party to the right with the take-over of all of those formerly Republican seats.  If the D left rattles their sabers too hard, they may lose those seats back to the Rs.

              2. promisem profile image96
                promisemposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                I'm surprised the chart showed a spread on fiscal policy among Republicans.

                I'm a strong fiscal conservative, and I have never met a true Republican who was liberal on fiscal policy.

                1. Live to Learn profile image80
                  Live to Learnposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  I identify as Republican but I am quite liberal on some ideas, albeit what I feel we should do I only think we should spend on if we offset the costs by reductions in other areas.

                  I think most people can easily swing either way, in the way they identify themselves, but the identity politics of the modern left is turning moderates off and more are self identifying as Republican.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    Live to Learn, I only offer a personal perspective. I think modern identity politics is turning moderates off and more are self-identifying as Independents. From my perspective, the Right, (Republicans), are as alienating as the Left, (Democrats).

                    GA

                  2. PrettyPanther profile image85
                    PrettyPantherposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    "....but the identity politics of the modern left is turning moderates off and more are self identifying as Republican."

                    Recent data indicates the opposite.

                  3. My Esoteric profile image91
                    My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    I WAS what they called a liberal Republican, and voted that way until 1992 when I voted for Clinton, my first Democrat.  But then they called me a RHINO because I wasn't "pure" enough for them - it made me think of Hitler and the rise of the superior race.  - and it has just gotten worse every year since.  And now we have the culmination of that movement with Trump - the Dictator.

                    So now I am an independent who votes for every non-conservative I can.

            3. jackclee lm profile image80
              jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              No, it has not. If anything, the GOP leaders has moved left and frustrates conservatives like me.

        3. jackclee lm profile image80
          jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          what? are you kidding me? this is why our country is going down the tubes. people like you who refuse to recognize reality. Since when the Democratic party stood up for socialism?

      2. MizBejabbers profile image89
        MizBejabbersposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        I like your answer, Wilderness, but I'm not sure I agree that we are more polarized than this country used to be. I think it is the "breaking" news and instant gratification that makes it seem so. (Funny how some stories seem to break for three days.) In past centuries before radio and TV, it took weeks, and sometimes months, for the news to get around the country. By the time people in Ohio or Texas heard about it, the people between Washington, New York or Pennsylvania, etc., had time to digest it and calm down.

        Politicians fought duels over their political differences, for instance, the Hamilton-Burr duel in which Alexander Hamilton was shot to death by Aaron Burr. I don't know about other state legislatures, but in my state this occurred on the floor of the state legislature in 1837:

        "The only recorded violent death on the floor of the Arkansas General Assembly occurred on December 4, 1837, in a knife brawl leaving state Representative Major Joseph J. Anthony of Randolph County dead at the hands of Speaker of the House Colonel John Wilson of Clark County, who was subsequently expelled and tried for murder. The Arkansas Gazette cited it as “another example of the barbarity of life in Arkansas,” lamenting how it “stained the history of the state.”"
        http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/e … tryID=5664

        At least today our politicians have confined their squabbling to the courts and to TV and Twitter. Thank goodness we haven't had any knife fights or duels that ended in death of one of the combatants.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          I didn't mean that we are more polarized, simply that the reaction to that polarization has gotten completely out of hand.

          The duel is a great example; it happened (more than once) but it was very rare.  But now we commonly have riots over everything, hurting or killing people all the time.  We see whole universities forced to supply "safe areas" and counselors because  students saw "Vote Trump" scrawled on the sidewalk.

          Events and actions that were once rare are commonplace, and certainly the level of partisanship shown in Congress is unique to our time.  Yes, we've always had politicians fighting for what they want, but now we have them walking out of the building to prevent a vote if they can't have their way.  We have them continuing to fight (for years and years) after the vote went against them.  We have 99% of our politicians voting a straight party line rather than their own mind.  We have great outcries to change the constitution because they lost an election.  These types of reactions have gotten much, much worse than they were.

          1. My Esoteric profile image91
            My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            BTW, both Burr and Hamilton were Federalists.

            1. MizBejabbers profile image89
              MizBejabbersposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              That is true, and they were former partners in their own law firm. Hamilton seemed to carry a chip on his shoulder because of his low birth, and he did favor a monarchy. Truth be known, probably a strong federal government may have been his second choice to a monarchy. But there seems to have been a squabble within the ranks of the Federalists with Hamilton, once the fair-haired boy of George Washington, coming out against Washington. However, it is possible that the Hamilton/Burr differences may have been personal as much as political.

    3. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 7 months agoin reply to this

      I have been trying to get straight answers to these kinds of questions for sometime. Perhaps, the answers may be forthcoming now that someone other than me is asking.

    4. GA Anderson profile image92
      GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      From the looks of the responses My Esoteric, maybe small steps, like picking one demographic, might yield more insights.

      I would pick the easy one - age.

      Age -
      Gen Z: Approve: 21% (with 15% Don't Know)
      Millennial: Approve: 28%
      Gen X: Approve: 37%
      Boomers: Approve: 46%

      The obvious indication is that older voters are more approving. Why?

      Shooting from the hip I would say it is because the social changes are more impactful on the older respondent's perspectives.

      I think the Left, under the Obama administration, pushed too hard too fast. It started with the societal upheaval of Obamacare, then piled on with the LGBT issues, then topped it all with the cherry of a national discussion of which bathroom kids should use.

      Taken individually I think all those issues have merit for discussion, (except the bathroom issue), and with time for absorption I don't think they would have been so negatively impactful on conservative-minded folks, (Gen X, Baby Boomers), but piled all together in one brief administration's time was a lot to swallow for a lot of folks.

      The Gen Z folks have grown up with the trans and gender issues, and the Bernie Sander's age group are familiar with the societal direction of the Left's demands. But, for the Gen X and Baby Boomers, those issues are radical changes from their embedded life views. So they would naturally be more supportive of a counter-balancing figure like Pres. Trump.

      That is just a first thought, but I think it is a valid one relative to that demographic.

      GA

      1. My Esoteric profile image91
        My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        For that demographic, you make good points (save for the one about Trump)  They give me things to think about.  But, I do notice that the Millennials are much closer to the Gen Z than Gen X or Boomers.  Consider that when comparing to your statement "those issues are radical changes from their embedded life views."

        I should add that:

        Gen Z - (18 - 21)
        Millennial - (22 - 37)
        Gen X - (38 - 53)
        Boomers - (54 - 72)

        https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/u … _v2_AP.pdf

        On the other hand, Trump is much, much more than a "counter-balancing figure"; he is a sea-change figure breaking everything in his path just like a bull-in-a-china-shop.

        1. GA Anderson profile image92
          GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Now, now My Esoteric. I think you understood my point about the counter-balance of Trump to the upheaval perceived by the Gen X and Baby Boomer folks. Don't let your Trump opinion affect your consideration of that rational.

          GA

          1. My Esoteric profile image91
            My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            I do understand your point save for the one about Trump.  What I think of Trump is neither here nor there. My comment simply reflects reality - that description is simply not debatable.

            That said, more important are the other things you said.

      2. IslandBites profile image88
        IslandBitesposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        As a gen-xer I don't approved this message. big_smile


        I don't think we're in the same boat as Baby Boomers.

        1. GA Anderson profile image92
          GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          So you think you are less anchored to the societal norms of the Baby Boomers? Which Gen X'r are you - closer in age to the Baby Boomer, or closer to the Millenials?

          That may impact your perception of being lumped in with the Baby Boomers.

          GA

          1. IslandBites profile image88
            IslandBitesposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            I was kidding. (But not!) While Baby Boomers and Gen-X are somewhat divided, Gen-x leans left.

            But yes, I suppose that, in general, the majority of older Gen-xers are centrists or right leaning.

            (I'm really close to Millenials.)

    5. jackclee lm profile image80
      jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      The divide is made worse in my opinion by a dishonest media...Rush Limbaugh coin a term and called them "the drive by media". It makes perfect description of what they do...

      The true definition of the Drive-By Media is they arrive on the scene of major breaking news and they stir up emotions to a frenzied fever pitch. They spread lies, and then, after a few hours or a few days when the real facts emerge, they're gone.

      1. IslandBites profile image88
        IslandBitesposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        roll

        1. jackclee lm profile image80
          jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          It was Churchchill who said if you are not a liberal in your 20s you have no heart, if you are not conservative in your 50s, you have no brain....

          1. crankalicious profile image92
            crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            Before you go attributing a statement inaccurately, you might want to investigate it. Churchill did not say that. In case you are wondering, it appears the spirit of the quote can be attributed to either Anselme Batbie or Edmund Burke.

            1. jackclee lm profile image80
              jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              Thanks, my memory is not as good as it use to be but the idea is still good, and true...today.

              1. crankalicious profile image92
                crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                Yes, the spirit of the quote is as good as the irony of its presentation.

                1. jackclee lm profile image80
                  jackclee lmposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  It explains partly the poll stats...

    6. jackclee lm profile image80
      jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this
      1. crankalicious profile image92
        crankaliciousposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Kind of like all those Republicans blaming Obama for Katrina, right?

        1. jackclee lm profile image80
          jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          I am just pointing out the problem with our society today. You have people making value judgement based on their politics and not based on what is right. Just because they don’t agree with a politician or political party, they will change their own views just to be different.
          This makes it very easy for the media and others to manipulate public opinion.
          That is why our founders were smart enough to create a system of government based on representation rather than popular vote.
          The assumption was we elected people of character to higher office so that they are immune to these popular slogans.
          Lately, in Washington, sadly, we don’t have that any more. People are elected to office who are clueless about our laws and our Constitution.
          Therefore, we have chaos instead of government by the people for the people.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image92
            Randy Godwinposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Correct, Trump has very little moral integrity and cares not for the constitution or the law. Otherwise he wouldn't protest so much about his taxes. He clearly has something to hide.

          2. crankalicious profile image92
            crankaliciousposted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Agree, Randy. A Trump supporter talking about respect for the rule of law and the Constitution is slightly ironic.

            However, I will agree on the point that doing a 180 on your opinion about something based on whether somebody you support said it or somebody you dislike said it, is not exactly a stable ethical/moral compass.

            1. jackclee lm profile image80
              jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              That is exactly what is going on with our borders. The same politicians on both side of the aisle have said they want to solve the problem and yet with each passing years, it gets worse and they just kick the can down the road...the same goes with the debt...
              That is why Trump was elected as an outsider, despite his many baggage...
              American people have to decide what they want from their government.
              Regardless of elections, the politicians and the big donors have figured out they can control both parties to do the exact things they want contrary to what the people wants and get away with it.

              We get the government we deserve...

            2. jackclee lm profile image80
              jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              Just to respond directly to your Trump comment.
              I was a reluctant supporter of Trump and only after he was elected.
              I finally realized the corruption of both parties and they just want power and control. They are not interested in solving problems I care about.
              At least, with Trump, he is trying to do what I want happen...

              We are beginning to see some blacks and minorities coming to that same conclusion. If enough of them come join us Conservatives, we can actually get something accomplished and vote all the incumbents out of office.
              The election of AOC accomplished some of that even though I disagree with her politics. She is shaking things up on DC...which is always a good thing.

              1. MizBejabbers profile image89
                MizBejabbersposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                "At least, with Trump, he is trying to do what I want happen..."

                Just curious, Jackclee, what do you want to happen? It concerns me that he took us to within 10 minutes of war, and that he insults the leaders of free world countries and pals around with dictators like Putin and Kim.

                1. jackclee lm profile image80
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  I want the border controlled. Only legal immigration to our country. I want a fair trade with China.
                  I want a nuclear free North Korea and Iran.
                  I want a Conservative Supreme court that follows the Constitution and not make laws like ACA...
                  I want a reduction of our national debt.
                  I want a strong military.
                  I want the Keystone XL pipeline build.
                  I want more manufacturing jobs back in America.
                  I want lower taxes.
                  I want term limits on Congress.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    I want a pony.

                    Sorry jackclee,but the temptation was too great.

                    GA ;-)

                  2. My Esoteric profile image91
                    My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Democrats want "the border controlled. Only legal immigration to our country. I want a fair trade with China."

                    Democrats want "a nuclear free North Korea and Iran." (Yet Trump and his conservative enablers are driving Iran to get nukes again - WHY?)

                    Democrats want "a Liberal Supreme court that follows the Constitution and what our founders intended for America"

                    Democrats "want a reduction of our national debt. " (Yet Trump and his conservative enablers keep driving it higher a record pace)

                    "I want a strong military." You got me there, Jack, most Ds don't, although this independent does.

                    "I want the Keystone XL pipeline build." - You're right, Ds don't because it is environmentally unsound and not needed.

                    Democrats "want more manufacturing jobs back in America."

                    "I want lower taxes." - You may but the rich need to pay their fair share (50 to 60% top marginal rate would be nice)

                    "I want term limits on Congress." - Term limits lead to a stupid, inexperienced Congress (not that there are doing any better today)

              2. My Esoteric profile image91
                My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                The real truth, Jack, is many black conservatives are leaving Trump for Kamala Harris and Biden.  That is from a black conservative who is still hanging with Trump while the economy remains good.  Not sure how long that will last though - he was very upset with his racism.

              3. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                Trump is more corrupt than both of the political parties combined. Who ever came up with the crazy idea that he was going to be above the fray?

                There is a reason why "black conservatives" in the mode of Trump are not many, Anybody getting the endorsement and support of every race baiting entity is certainly not going to get my support. Any friend of theirs is an enemy of mine. I could not be a conservative today and stand looking at the mirror.

                He is doing what you want to happen, but again that is just you. It certainly does not reflect my views or desires. "Blacks and minorities coming to the same conclusion"? Where do you get your news, Jack?

                1. jackclee lm profile image80
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  Does it matter? It is no secret what Trump say and does. You can agree or disagree with his policies. The media will spin it any way they wish.
                  It is up to you and me to decide for ourselves if he is doing the right things.
                  You have some strong feelings about Trump. Yet, you have not been able to articulate what is it that you object to. You even admit that you personally have not been hurt by his policies. So, I think some soul searching is in order. What do you say to the other black conservatives. There are more than a few of them. Are they all racist or are they uncle Toms? Or are they independent thinkers...who realized after all they conservatism is the path to property.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image91
                    My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    The main stream media simply reports on what Trump does, they don't spin (for the most part even Fox News tries to play it straight).  It is the talking heads, the opinion people, who put the spin on it, but they don't twist the facts beyond recognition.  I will grant you people like Don Lemon, Jake Trapper, and Cuomo put a little spin on it.  But Trump acolytes like Hannity, Limbaugh, and there ilk not only spin the facts, they often make them unrecognizable, and frequently simply lie.

                    Trump has Earned the strong feelings we have about him.  We have articulated a lot about what we object to - you chose not to listen.  It is you that needs to search your soul about how you can support an outright racist, misogynist, sexual predator, Islamophobe, xenophobe, bully, and pathological liar.

                    Black conservatives? What do they represent, less than 1% of the black community?

                    Tell me, Jack, why has America experienced the best economic times under liberal, mainly Democratic, presidents and congresses?  The longest expansions have been under Kennedy-Johnson, Clinton, and Obama (of which Trump is now benefiting)

                  2. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Yes, you and me have to decide if he doing the right things. You obviously think that he is I and think that he is not.

                    What are my objections

                    He is a race baiter and has been years before now.

                    With his persona and attitude he has attracted the worse of the racist scum and their organizations to his banner.

                    I think his foreign policy approaches are reckless

                    I like neither the man, nor his policies. I cannot say that about any one as President within my lifetime.

                    My neighbor has not hurt me directly either, but he is not President of the United States. Let's not be naive, Jack. We all know that "hurt" goes beyond what I have or have not experienced personally as an individual.

                    Conservative Blacks? You have a better chance of finding the abominable snowman.

          3. Credence2 profile image81
            Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

            What you mean by "people of character" are merely rightwing automatons?

            When we get down to cases, conservatives are terrified by the vox
            Populi and fear being outnumbered and outvoted. That is really where all this stuff about representation verses the irresponsible "rabble" comes from, does it not?

      2. My Esoteric profile image91
        My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        What about it, it is from that Fake News site Daily Caller.

        1. jackclee lm profile image80
          jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          What do you consider fake news?
          This was a real man in the street interview...
          It demonstrate how people are not thinking for themselves.
          This is the news that the main stream media is not reporting.

          1. Credence2 profile image81
            Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

            Jack, That's just staged stuff, I am black and I am not confused about the fact that both Trump and the Right wing agenda sucks, and must be dispensed with at the earliest opportunity.

            1. jackclee lm profile image80
              jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

              What has he done to you personally? I ask that in earnest. The economy is doing well. All people are better off with jobs, and a growing wealth. What is this right wing? Have they damage you or your race?
              I just don’t get it. A rising tide raises all boats.
              It is inexplicable that some democrats would rather go back to old policies that hurt them economically just because they hate Trump.

              1. My Esoteric profile image91
                My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                What difference does it make if #TraitorTrump has done anything to Credence personally? You are just deflecting with that question.  The real question is why do you applaud the harm this impostor has done to America, and by extension to Credence and myself.

                People had jobs under Obama, yet you imply that they didn't - that is dishonest

                People's wealth grew under Obama, yet you imply that it didn't - that is dishonest.

                "A rising tide raises all boats" may be true for oceans, but it is clearly not true for economics.  The bottom 20%, in real terms, has fallen farther behind.

                HERE is the REAL TRUTH, Jack

                From WW II into the 1970s, when the far right stayed out of politics,
                - "Incomes grew rapidly and at roughly the same rate up and down the income ladder, roughly doubling in inflation-adjusted terms between the late 1940s and early 1970s."

                - "The income gap between those high up the income ladder and those on the middle and lower rungs — while substantial — did not change much during this period."

                Beginning in the 1970s (and accelerating after Reagan)

                - "Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly."

                - "The concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen 90 years ago (during the “Roaring Twenties”)."

                - Things got marginally better under Clinton and even more equal during the Great Republican Recession of 2008

                - They improved a little in the latter part of Obama's administration because real wages finally began to increase.

                - It has gotten worse under Trump as wage growth and inflation began to equal each other.

                It is #RacistTrump who wants to revert back to the good ol' 50s when whites loved blacks to death.

                1. jackclee lm profile image80
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  What harm exactly?
                  You are just being silly and letting your emotion rule.
                  Trump has not hurt me in any way.
                  In fact, under Trump, my savings has increased by 40% in the two and a half years since he was in office.
                  That is a great result even above my expectations.

                  1. PrettyPanther profile image85
                    PrettyPantherposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Glad to hear Trump has not hurt you in any way. Do you think he has hurt others in any way?

                  2. My Esoteric profile image91
                    My Esotericposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    Nor has he hurt me either, other than my sense of pride for America.  I am embarrassed for my country because of him.

                    Is your only measure of "goodness" your wealth, Jack?  Don't America values meaning anything to you? That black guy I mentioned (and a white guy sitting next to him as well) believes that way - so long as their wealth is not impacted, they could care less what Trump does to America.  They don't care that Trump makes America look more of a racist country than it already is.  They don't care if he separates families.  They don't care if we wastes billions of dollars on a useless cement wall which makes America look like it is on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. 

                    Trump is dividing America; probably as bad as it has ever been before in history.  I think the only two times it was worse was around 1802 and around 1860.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Trump tried to reinstate the infamous Alien and Sedition Acts.

                  3. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-tr … 33387.html

                    I open that you are not harboring a bias about AP as a news source, Jack.

                    The article seems to take issue with this idea that Trump is responsible for lower AA unemployment rates.

                    Trump's policies are contrary to the direction that I believe is best. But, I said the same about Reagan and Nixon ( to a lesser degree).

                2. MizBejabbers profile image89
                  MizBejabbersposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                  - "Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly."

                  - "The concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen 90 years ago (during the “Roaring Twenties”)."

                  Myesoteric, I have to eloaborate on those two statements. I was a reporter when the "trickle down" theory was being pushed so heavily by the Republican Party. As I recall, after it's dismal failure (just as you described) one billionaire (I wish I could remember which one) said that the wealth didn't trickle down, it spurted up.

                  We know what happened 90 years ago after that  rise of the "concentration of income" of the Roaring 20s, the Great Depression of the 30s. My parents were children of the depression, as were those of my peers. We were raised up in the aftermath and with the tales.

                  I predict that we could head in that direction again if we aren't careful.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image80
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months agoin reply to this

                    We won’t but if it does happen, you can blame Obama for doubling our national debt in his 8 years. Not only that, he kept the interest at zero percent all though those years. It has never happened in our history.
                    Go look it up. It is easy to verify.
                    His quantitative easing policy was another sure way to bankrupt our nation.
                    Income inequality rose during the Obama years as well.

                    If and when the next recession comes, which it will, we will survive and come out better and stronger the other side.

  2. IslandBites profile image88
    IslandBitesposted 7 months ago

    According to research, the Silent Generation is the only one that is predominantly conservative. Baby Boomers are divided, but lean conservative. Gen X is somewhat divided, but leans liberal. Millennial are predominantly liberal.

    The same rule applies to political party affiliation.

    1. crankalicious profile image92
      crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      This would support the notion that we become more conservative as we age, perhaps not on social policy, but certainly on fiscal policy.

      Why is that?

      Is it because as young people, we have little in the way of assets and want to accumulate them and look to the public sector for help whereas when we're older, we've accumulated assets, presumably through years of work, and look to the public sector to help us keep those assets?

      The young look to the public sector for help while the old look to the public sector for protection?

      The young seek change - change in their situation, future; etc. The old want stability - they've spent a lifetime establishing themselves and change is not what they're looking for.

      1. My Esoteric profile image91
        My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Very possibly, but what about the divide between men and women or Whites vs minorities. And then there is that huge difference between conservatives and independents.

        1. crankalicious profile image92
          crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Simple. It has to do with how they experience the world.

          In a nutshell, white men, who form the base of conservatism, have lived their entire lives with every advantage society can offer in terms of how they are perceived while women and minorities exist in the world with many perceived prejudices and they experience that prejudice in many ways, frequently through discriminatory behavior. Thus, women and minorities would like to have equitable access to the same sorts of things white men have access to. They would also like those biases and prejudices governed in some way so that they are not allowed to penalize them for being a woman or a minority.

          1. My Esoteric profile image91
            My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            I think you are on to something.

            A book I am reading is suggesting conservatism is all about retention of the power of the superior over the inferior. White over Minority, Man over Woman, Employer over Employee.

            Liberalism is about breaking the bonds that bind them while conservatism is the reaction by Conservatives to keep those bonds in place, literally and figuratively.

            That is why Conservatives opposed so strongly abolition, black's right to vote, woman's right to vote, feminism, civil rights, gay rights, etc.

            1. crankalicious profile image92
              crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              That's exactly correct. It's also, to some degree, the maintenance of tradition, which is why many conservatives are very religious.

              1. PrettyPanther profile image85
                PrettyPantherposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                You both hit the mail on the head.

              2. GA Anderson profile image92
                GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                I think your previous comments on this topic were great, but for this one, would saying "selective maintenance of tradition" carry the same point you are making?

                I believe, (speaking of American traditions),  most important traditions are traditions for a good reason - typically because they provide a known benefit.

                GA

                1. crankalicious profile image92
                  crankaliciousposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  GA, yes, it's probably fine.

                  There's a real thin line between maintaining tradition and oppression and a thin line between progress and tradition-trashing.

                  Which is to say, one should not impede progress just because of tradition nor should somebody stomp all over tradition in the name of progress.

                  While I generally find myself as anti-Christian due to the monolithic and oppressive nature of the groups demands, I'm also respectful of their right to express themselves. They have the same rights as any other group. So, for instance, while I oppose manger scenes on public property, I don't oppose them if the same opportunity is afforded to other groups. Christians should not be excluded from expressing themselves in favor of any other group. It should simply be equal. Of course, I'm for keeping religion out of the public sphere altogether, but some of this stuff is so intermixed with a general popular culture, I try not to nitpick any longer.

                  Probably the issue of gay rights delineates these issues best. We can't deny a Christian's right to follow the Bible if they believe or are taught that homosexuality is a sin. However, if they wish to exercise that right in the public sphere, then we run into problems since tax-paying citizens have the same rights and value as citizens no matter their beliefs. A Christian citizen does not have more value or more rights than a gay citizen. So should a Christian baker be able to deny service to a gay customer? How about a black customer? Or a Muslim customer? If that's private property, then I would say yes, but they should also have to designate who they will and will not serve openly, not on a case-by-case basis. That would effectively doom any business and should severely limit public support for them in terms of services they receive. In other words, if you want to use religion as a reason for denial of service, then any tax benefits or other government benefits should be non-existent.

                2. My Esoteric profile image91
                  My Esotericposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  GA, that statement "most important traditions are traditions for a good reason - typically because they provide a known benefit. "

                  One question might be "benefit to whom"?

                  And then you always run into these logic knots of:

                  It has been traditional that "men head the family unit" but that doesn't mean it is good.

                  The old stand-by, "it has (had) been traditional that the slave obey the master" (and many religious conservatives used that to justify slavery in their sermons), but clearly that was bad.

                  It is traditional that there be superiors and inferiors so don't upset the apple cart by trying to change this.

                  Now, to that last one.  Of course there are superior and subordinate "positions" but tradition is that it is OK for the boss 'Treat' the subordinate as inferior such as with sub-standard wages, etc.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    You are becoming as predictable as I am My Esoteric.

                    "It is traditional that there be superiors and inferiors ...*"

                    Is that the same as leaders and followers, or more capable and less capable? Do you truly believe all people are equally capable? *obviously I disagree that this part is a tradition, I think it is a reality, and I left out the "upset the apple cart" part because I think that is a concoction of your own, certainly not a tradition in the sense I thought they were being discussed.

                    I was thinking of traditions like; Sunday or holiday family dinners, celebrating July 4th, ladies, or women & children first, or charity, or ...

                    It is true that traditionally men are still considered the head of the family, but there are many exceptions to this, which shows it is a family choice and that traditions can be flexible. If that is true do you automatically determine that this tradition has no benefit to the family? I think the current criticisms of "male privilege" in our society may indicate there is a benefit to the man being the head of the family.

                    I think your slavery example is a poor one. It is no longer a traditional, (customary?),  behavior so it is no longer a tradition, (custom). Could that be a point that custom and tradition are different? Was your slavery example a custom or a tradition?

                    Regarding your last example - the "boss." There is nothing traditional about that. It may have been customary at a time, but I don't think it was ever a tradition.

                    It looks like a good first step would be determining whether tradition or traditional is synonymous with custom or customary. I don't think so, but Crankilicious brought tradition into the discussion so maybe we need a little clarification from the source.

                    GA

      2. IslandBites profile image88
        IslandBitesposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        That may be an element. But:

        Throughout the past two decades, the relative conservatism of each generation has been consistent, even as the members of each generation have aged. Those born before 1946 have been the most conservative generation in every year going back to 1994, based on the percentage of the generation identifying as conservative minus the percentage identifying as liberal. Baby boomers have been less conservative than traditionalists, but more conservative than Gen Xers and millennials each year since 1994, spanning the period when baby boomers moved from being in their 30s or 40s to now when they are in their 50s or 60s.

        The consistency in the relative rank of the generations over time reflects the fairly constant ideological preferences of each generation.

        Given the general consistency in ideological preferences over time, the expectation is that baby boomers' conservative tilt will persist as they continue to age into their 70s and 80s. That has been the pattern for traditionalists, who are that age now, and whose ideological profile today looks similar to what it was 20 years ago.

        Although the generations' ideology has stayed fairly consistent over time, Americans' ideology as a whole has undergone a gradual shift, with a notable increase in the percentage of Americans identifying as liberal. The data suggest that generational replacement may be a cause of this change, as those now entering adulthood are about as likely to identify as liberal as conservative, while at the same time, the older Americans who pass on are much more likely to be conservative.

        Younger Americans' greater likelihood to identify as liberal may be tied to this group's racial and ethnic composition and connected to how this relates to the U.S. political process. The younger generation of U.S. adults is much more racially and ethnically diverse than older generations, and racial and ethnic minorities are much more likely to identify politically as liberal rather than conservative and as Democratic rather than Republican.

        The ideological changes evident in the U.S. population more generally also may reflect both younger and older Americans' willingness to use the various political labels to describe themselves. One of the major changes Gallup has documented in recent years is that self-identified Democrats are more likely to describe their political views as liberal than as moderate, while in the past the opposite was true.

        Although it is not possible to know from these data if ideological preferences persist throughout people's lifetimes, each major generation's preferences have been largely stable over the past two decades. If these trends largely persist, there should be a continued increase in the percentage of Americans identifying as liberal and decrease in the percentage identifying as conservative in the future, unless the generation born after 2000 emerges as more conservative than liberal.

        https://news.gallup.com/poll/181325/bab … ative.aspx

        (The general % may be different, but that is consistent with other sources I've read before, Pew was one of them.)

  3. PrettyPanther profile image85
    PrettyPantherposted 4 months ago

    I don't  think mass shootings are a right or left issue, but is it too much to ask that our president  refrain from stoking the animus that is undoubtedly simmering inside some of these extremists?

    Can he, at a minimum, stop doing that?

    1. DoubleScorpion profile image80
      DoubleScorpionposted 4 months agoin reply to this

      And the rest of the politicians as well...

      1. PrettyPanther profile image85
        PrettyPantherposted 4 months agoin reply to this

        Yes, them as well, though I haven't seen any current politician come even close to the level of angry, divisive rhetoric that emerges from Trump's mouth and twitter feed, and he is our president.

        1. DoubleScorpion profile image80
          DoubleScorpionposted 4 months agoin reply to this

          Um..Ok…

          I am not sure how you have missed it...

          But, both sides are pretty bad..and getting worse it seems.

 
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