The Reopening Of The Country Is At Hand
I read each phase of Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx's plan to reopen the country. The plan is very clear and detailed. At this point, it will be up to each Governor to choose to follow the plan or come up with their perhaps another plan that they might feel would be better for their state. I was pleased that the president left it up to the governor, yet he made the gesture of added Federal help if needed.
I think the plan is good with leaving room for possible relapses. I am also so pleased that the doctors will be monitoring the reopening and beyond. It will be interesting to see how each Governor handles their states reopening. So, what do you think about the Doctor's opening plans? Do you think it will go well in your home state?
Its too late, the damage has been done.
China has won... this will eventually lead to the collapse of the American dollar and the rise of the Yuan... it will take a while for the world to transition, but give China credit, they found a way of defeating the US without firing a shot.
They deployed COVID-19 and the Western world panicked and shut everything down, that in turn collapsed the value of oil, which in turn will collapse the Petrodollar.
With hindsight, it looks as if China knowingly sent people with the virus to major cities across the globe, NY, LA, Rome, Paris, etc. deliberately to spread it, the CCP knew how transferable it was and they knew how long an incubation period it had, and they hid this information from the world as long as they could, it was the perfect Bio Weapon to bring the Western nations to their knees.
Even when Trump decided to close off travel to China, the WHO was arguing against his decision to do so... imagine if it had been up to the WHO... how long would travel to and from China continued, how much more severe would the spread of the virus been?
The value of Oil just went well south of 0.00 a barrel (as in BELOW zero) ... 22 Million people (counted so far) in America out of work. Produce and Meat Industry losing tens of millions worth of meat and crops because slaughter and packaging and processing plants are shut down... America hasn't even begun to feel the pain of this pandemic yet.
China has been at war with us for decades and as a nation we have been completely oblivious to it.
Worse, the likes of the Clintons (whose very first Presidential campaign was funded by Chinese Businessmen making illegal contributions) and Bidens have sold this country out for a handful of gold coins.
China has served a crippling blow to our economy, and a killing blow to the Petrodollar. The changing of the guard is now inevitable, in a few years China will be directing global affairs and America will be subservient to its dictates.I wouldn't expect you to understand the global economic repercussions of these events, nor who is in a position to capitalize on them...
Still... the ignorance of some, and their antics to try and belittle that which they cannot comprehend, never ceases to amaze.And Trump sychophants never cease to amaze either, Ken.
This 'You' that you (Meaning yourself, of course) mention, just who in the adult expletive might you be referring to? Are you, by any chance, referring to people who don't watch, and or believe fox news?
Try looking around and deciding just how many, amongst your brethren, are part of this nation's ungodly amount of mouth breathers."Mouth breathers"
In poker they would call that a 'Tell'
GA
Randy, I don't have too. I never bought into selling out common sense. I see right through the confusion, and concentrate on facts.
Are you sure? Trump spreads lots of confusion and misinformation during his daily rallies on TV. I know I can't keep up with his lies...
I guess we look differently about what would consist of a lie. I note the Post added Trump's statement. "Jan. 22. “We have it totally under control"' Which many gave considered a lie. As of Jan 22 ...This is what Trump was aware of.
Jan. 11, 2020: China reports 1st novel coronavirus death
Chinese state media reports the first death from novel coronavirus, a 61-year-old man who had visited the live animal market in Wuhan.
Jan. 21, 2020: 1st confirmed case in the United States
A man in his 30s from Washington state, who traveled to Wuhan, is diagnosed with the novel coronavirus. Japan, South Korea, and Thailand also report their first cases one day prior.
As you see we had one case, no deaths as China had reported one death it well appears when Trump made the statement "We have it totally under control"... was very appropriate. Context matters. When you are fed a statement you would check out what was going on when Trump made the statement. I have to add, not sure how anyone can call an opinion statement a lie at any rate.It's no different than, "Mexico will pay for the wall." Was that simply an opinion as well? Or, "We stopped it." Or "It's a democratic and media hoax." All opinions?
Just how can you tell he's lying or telling the truth, Shar? I'd really like to know...How can I tell? I listen to an entire statement, and what precipitated any given comment. What was occurring at the time, what Trump was aware of, is he giving his own opinion. "Mexico will pay for it" "free tuition, free health care". It's called campaigning.
I am not willing to defend any and all of TRump's statements I am willing to defend his deeds, his job performance, his outstanding handling of this virus crisis. In the end, I feel deeds are so much more important than words. He has a wonderful job performance, he is a problem solver.So why did he ignore the pandemic playbook created just for this sort of virus? Was that a "wonderful job performance?"
It remains to be seen if he'll solve this problem. He stinks at it thus far....In his own words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB8icFsfJe0How anyone can watch him contradict himself so many times on your link, and still claim he doesn't lie or distort the truth, is simply beyond me, Crank.
Willful ignorance seems to haunt his supporters...You do realize much occurred between Feb 26 and March 31? Have you read the timeline of what our government was doing and when they did it? I am will add the link once again. it is clear you are either not willing to see what was going on when, and how quickly Trump started problem-solving. The crisis was ongoing and became a threat almost overnight. It's also very clear you are listening to words, and are willing to ignore what was done By Trump and the task force he put together.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/time … ronavirus/So truthful. Leaders prepare.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru … from-trump
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-d … apo-2020-4
Even Trump sycophant Piers Morgan sees the problem:
https://www.wifr.com/content/news/Piers … 85131.html
And Trump gets his information from Fox News and then repeats it:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente … 73656.html
Yep, great job.You continue to ignore the timeline. This can clearly provide what Trump knew when, and what he was not aware of as of yet. I have nothing else to add. I can conceive that you can ignore or consider the timeline as to what Trump said and when he said it. What he knew at the time he made a given statement. And it is odd how you can't discuss any of what Trump and his Taskforce have done while handling this crisis. You dwell on what he says. We have clearly had different ways of looking at a problem. I could care less about words, only what is being done to solve the problem. You pick out a statement that is negative I appreciate a solution and actions that solve problems. In the end, all your negativity in regards to a statement won't change the fact Trump solved problems, and he did it quickly. So, if it gives you pleasure to hold onto all the negative, and many of us appreciate the positive, where does that leave you? All your negativity can't take away the fact Trump did a good job once again.
Hardly. It's Trump who ignored things. Every reputable source says so and the evidence is so overwhelming that only the most ignorant and blinded could think otherwise.
He lies so much that entire pages and portions of news sites are devoted to correcting him.
Did you even look at the Azar link? Of course not. Watch the John Oliver clip.
Our President is a joke.So I guess I got my answer you believe words are more important action, problem-solving.
This is truly stupid. His actions are only relevant if you believe him about HIS timeline. I do not believe his version of the timeline about when he was told about events and when recommendations were given to him and when his own administration recommended he take action because all evidence points to the many, many people who contradict his version of events.
Perhaps you don't understand my question. I would like to know what you feel about the job he has done during the crisis?
What difference would it make to you, Shar? You already have your mind made up he did a great job, so anyone disagreeing with you is wrong, no matter how many facts are exhibited to the contrary.
Face it, you're a real Trumpster casualty.
Not true. I just would like to know your point of view on how you feel about Trump's actions on handling the crisis thus far. Yes. I have been clear about how I feel Trump has done so far in handling the crisis. You shared you felt the Playbook was not followed. That gave me insight into your view. I can see your point in regard to you feel he should have used the Playbook as a guideline. It appears Dr. Fauci and Birx did not recommend the book be used. Not sure I can blame Trump for taking the opinions of his task force.
Once again, did you read the article I linked? And do you really believe Fauci and Birx would cross Trump, Shar? Look how he's tried to debase anyone who disagrees with him. He tries his best to ruin the careers of those who dare to tell the truth about him.
And you seriously believe Fauci and Birx would speak up? Really, Honestly, for real? Wanta buy some prime Georgia swampland?I don't believe either would do anything against their values. I think so far he has listened to both of them. Otherwise, Trump would be storming ahead and putting more pressure on Gov to reopen their states. It is clear he did not want to have a shutdown and is pushing to reopen the country. I give him credit for standing behind the Doc's reopening phases.
At this point after being trapped in the house for so long swampland sounds appealing to me... As long as there is room for a lounge chair and a side table for a "Old Fashion".But did you believe the ambassador and colonel Vindman went against their values when testifying against Trump during the impeachment inquiry?
What did they have to gain by their testimony, Shar?I would guess they both would have done better if they had followed protocol. I believe Vindmann was just transferred to another area of the defense department. And due to his service would not be investigated for not using the protocol.
"When Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman appeared before members of Congress on Tuesday to discuss what he knew about President Trump’s conversations with Ukraine’s president, he was violating an order from his commander in chief not to cooperate with the House’s impeachment inquiry.
He is likely protected from legal ramifications from showing up to testify, a former Army judge advocate told Military Times on Thursday. But it remains to be seen whether what he told legislators could get him charged with a crime ― and, of course, how his choice to rebel against his White House chain-of-command will affect his career."
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your … t-martial/He followed his conscience and duty, as did many other of the patriots who testified to Trump's "Drug Deal," Shar. I realize you wanted him to get away with the attempted extortion of the Ukraine President, but he was caught in the act.
He followed up by removing these people and smearing their reputations as well. He's like a little boy who screams when he doesn't get his way, and his supporters are so much like him certain ways.
I'd like to know where to get one of those "Baby Trump" blimps so I can fly it on my land next to I-75.Did you see this one, Randy?
So Trump promoted hydroxychloroquine, which studies are now showing just doesn't do anything for COVID-19, but actually increases the death rate.
https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2
Then apparently he and/or his administration fired the guy in charge of developing a vaccine because the guy wouldn't promote hydroxychloroquine.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rick-brig … racle-drug
How is it there's even one person on earth who supports Trump?Because they're too far gone with trusting Trump, Crank. They cannot back out at this point....simply can't.
No, I replied both are important, Shar. I realize you think you have a special talent for recognizing the truth among all of Trump's many falsehoods and claims....but you don't.
Try a real source instead one which comes from someone who has never been wrong about anything. Very few people trust his words at this point in time.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/2 … cil-149285Randy, by all accounts, the President does not read and relies on tv and people to tell him things. The fact that the President does not read (briefings or anything else), should disqualify him from holding the office.
No, he's not known for reading and has very little patience with the intel briefings according to those around him. No surprise he ignored the playbook and went with his substantial "gut" instead.
I know you're prejudice against China, and bias towards Russia; but has it escaped your attention that Russia called for an oil price war during the Covid-19 crisis, boasting that they’re a “Great Energy Power.”, arguing that US shale oil companies would soon go bankrupt, and that Saudi Arabia had a bigger budget deficit and less international currency reserves than Russia, so Russia would beat Saudi Arabia too.
It’s not China that has caused the USA oil to plummet to $0.00 a barrel, it’s Russia.I have nothing against China or Russia, I merely recognize what they are doing and present it. If I were in control of Russia or China I would most likely be doing the same things... trying to elevate my country and my people at the expense of America and the EU.
And Russia and China have a very strong alliance. One of the strongest alliances in the world right now.
Russia, China and several nations allied to them that have interests in common are now trading, banking and doing business in currency other than the dollar.
My #1 goal would be to derail the dollar as the World's reserve economy, if that can be achieved America's economic dominance would collapse, and once that goes, the military might would soon follow.
My #2 goal would be to not provoke America into a conflict with my country, while trying to bleed America's military might out by having them tied down in conflicts with minor (and economically irrelevant to my needs) nations like Afghanistan, North Korea, ultimately even Iran is expendable, as Russia can provide China with all it needs of oil and natural gas.
My #3 goal would be to convince America I am far weaker than I am, I would do this by showing what appears to be a significantly weaker and less capable military... as I know this is how America judges threats to its existence. I would instead develop the technology and software to be able to destroy America by toppling its computer and satellite systems, if that can be accomplished the military might of America would be blind and useless.
#1 is being accomplished as I type this, the Dollar is tied to the value of oil, and oil currently has no value... which means Petrodollar economics is about to be expunged by a significant portion of the world.
A good portion of the world will turn to China, as China is producing almost everything being consumed in the world, certainly on the continents of Africa and Western Asia this is especially true.
#2 and #3 are also in play, to what extent time will tell.You’ve made a well-reasoned case in defence of a conspiracy theory. I don’t have time to reply now, but in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger “I’ll be back”.
Ken, I do have criticisms of China, and I am aware of the ‘war of words’ between China and the USA (tit for tat); but America is just as much to blame as China is e.g. Trump’s persistent tweets of misinformation and insults of China.
However, unlike China, who is trying to Westernise, Russia is very much anti-free world and an aggressor, and a constant threat towards the West.
Therefore, where you say (in respect to China and Russia) “….trying to elevate [their country and people] at the expense of America and the EU”:-
China is opening its markets up to World Trade, which is proving to be a great economic benefit to the UK and EU e.g. China doesn’t just sale their goods to the UK, the UK and the EU also exports to China, and UK and EU Companies also invests in China (good for our economies). Examples include:-
• The UK’s desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy has been greatly aided because China is a world leader in solar technology, and Britain has benefited from their Research and Development, and mass production of solar panels e.g. solar panels with greatly improved efficiency at significantly lower prices, which since 2016 has made energy production from solar panels in the UK cheaper than energy production from any fossil fuel.
• China’s desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy includes their desire for a ‘super grid’ nationwide energy grid based on the European Super Grid, a pan-European Energy Grid that can transfer electricity thousands of miles from where there are surpluses to meet demand where there are shortages e.g. the UK’s ability to send surplus wind energy to Spain, and Spain’s ability to send surplus solar energy to the UK; on demand.
Consequently, a number of European Companies are in China, selling their expertise and technology e.g. exporting the technical equipment required for the Super grid and helping the Chinese to install it on their Super Grid.
• China’s and Europe’s joint desire to roll out electric cars to the masses to replace fossil fuel cars. As with solar panels, China is a world leader in the technology of electric cars, while Europe is a world leader in the infrastructure for charging points for electric cars. Consequently, each is helping the other to achieve a common goal more efficiently and cheaper than would otherwise be possible.
In contrast Russia is very anti-west and would like nothing more than to see the West collapse and Communism spread throughout the world.
Yes, Russia and China do have a strong alliance. They are both Communist countries, so they share the same social ideology; but that doesn’t stop China’s desire to be pragmatic about their philosophy in order to forge strong relationships with other counties e.g. their ‘Silk Road’, which now extends all the way to the UK by train.
The train that's made the 7,400-mile journey from China to London: https://youtu.be/4Y9nfWXywMs
But they are not the only strong alliance in the world right now e.g. the EU is strongest alliance in the Free World (The West); whereas the relationship between Europe and the USA is strained e.g. Trump’s Trade Wars with the EU because of his Nationalism.
Reference your comment “Russia, China and several nations allied to them that have interests in common are now trading, banking and doing business in currency other than the dollar.” For your information the EU and the UK Trade, Bank and do business in currencies other than the dollar; the only commodity in the UK that is linked to the dollar is ‘oil’.
Reference your “My #1 goal”: Yes Russia would love to derail the dollar and see America’s economic dominance collapse, and see the USA military weakened. All that China desires is for its currency to be included in the Currency Basket.
A weakened USA military would mean a weakened NATO, leaving Europe more exposed to Russian aggression.
American world economic dominance is already being weakened by Trump’s Nationalism e.g. persistent Trade wars with China and the EU. Besides, America isn’t as dominant as it thinks it is anyway e.g. 50% of the UK’s Trade is with the EU, and only 15.5% with the USA. Also, Trump pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) Trade Agreement hasn’t done the USA an favours e.g. the other countries, Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam carried on (to their mutual benefit) without the USA.
Reference your “My #2 goal”: In all these disputes Russia has avoided direct conflict with the USA; and China hasn’t even been involved in them. However, the flash point has been Syria where Russian troops and the Russian military are directly employed. Russia has avoided direct conflict with the USA, but it hasn’t been so lucky with Turkey (a NATO Member) e.g. if Turkey got into direct conflict with Russia then the USA would be dragged into the conflict because Turkey is a NATO Member.
But Turkey does not stand any nonsense from Russia, and will shoot down any Russian war plane that invades Turkey’s airspace, as happened a few years ago:-
Russian jet shot down by Turkey: https://youtu.be/cyhGOvsM4F0
Currently to minimise direct military contact between Turkey and Russia, some of the Freedom Fighters in Syria who have attacked Russian bases in Syria are paid directly by the Turkey Military and are under the Turkey Military Command.
Reference your “My #3 goal”: China doesn’t get involved with military conflicts; Russia does (all the time); and all around the European borders, so in Europe we do know what a military threat Russia is. And they are not shy about showing their military might either e.g. regularly buzzing European air space with Russian military aircraft; including the UK’s. Currently, since the Covid-19 lockdown in the UK, tying up the British Military in keeping supply chains open, and assisting civilian services, Russia has deployed 7 of their warships around the coast of Brittan.
9 Royal navy warships shadowing 7 Russian warships around UK coast during UK Covid-19 lockdown:- https://youtu.be/68oq4NNhjfU
RAF and NATO intercept Russian Bombers heading for Scotland at start of Covid-19 crisis in UK: https://youtu.be/XL94g6AmiBY
As regards the second half of your point; yes cyber warfare is a big problem in the UK, and once again, the vast majority of attacks come from Russia.
As regards to the main thrust of your original thrust: That China Made the Coronavirus in the LAB to Deliberately Infect America and the West; it is nothing more than another American Conspiracy Theory.
China claim that the Coronavirus originated from a food market in Wuhan, where it jumped species from bats to humans. It is a claim most scientists accept at face value as the most likely source because it is the most plausible valid explanation e.g. viruses do occasionally jump species, and the epicentre of the outbreak was in Wuhan where the food market is known to have illegally traded bats (food).
However, the concept that the virus accidently escaped from a lab researching diseases in bats in Wuhan, can’t be completely ruled out at this stage; and in that respect there is currently an international investigation into that prospect. However, a virus accidently escaping a lab (the more likely) and a virus deliberately being released from the lab (highly improbable) are two different things.
For Americans who love ‘Conspiracy Theories’, then ‘Resident Evil’ is a film well worth watching – lol.
I find it amazing on how many Americans love ‘Conspiracy Theories’, and are so gullible as to believe them.
As regards this conspiracy theory, a recent survey (13th April) showed that 23% of Americans believe that China deliberately made the virus in a lab to deliberately infect America and the Free World.
In fact the survey is quite interesting:-
• 43% of Americans believe the virus occurred naturally
• 29% of Americans believe the virus was made in a Lab in China (6% thinking it escaped accidentally, and 23% thinking it was released deliberately).
• 27% of Americans don’t know, and
• 1% of Americans don’t believe that the virus even exists e.g. a Chinese hoax (I guess that’s the Michigan Protestors – lol).About the virus, it has already been determined that the virus did not come from bats at a wet market, it may have come from bats that had been incubated with the virus in a lab, it may have come from a lab by accident, in the end it is irrelevant to what was done after it was released.
The Chinese officials were aware of it in early November, they lied to the WHO and CDC about how contagious it was, they said they had it locked down while the WHO organization downplayed its severity.
Two months later, the whole world was beginning to have people diagnosed with the virus. If China had been open and truthful to the WHO and CDC travel could have been restricted, and the virus contained to China while they worked on creating a vaccine.
Or simply put: China Lied and People Died.
We have had discussions on China in the past, they are frustrating because you choose to ignore the evidence open and overwhelming to counter your "China is our friend" perspective its not even a debatable topic.
The leader of the CCP Xi Jinping (the leader of all of China, its banks and its corporations) has stated matter-of-factly what China's plans are:
“By 2050 China will become a global leader in terms of comprehensive national strength and international influence
“Chinese people will enjoy greater happiness and well-being, and the Chinese nation will stand taller and firmer in the world.
“China is approaching the centre of the world stage.
“Right now both China and the world are in the midst of profound and complex changes.
“China is still in an important period of strategic opportunity for development. The prospects are very bright, but the challenges are very severe.”
Xi said the Communist Party will strive to fully transform the People’s Liberation Army into one the world’s top militaries by 2050 and emphasized the need to modernize its combat capability.
He said: “A military is built to fight.”
The president outlined his vision in a wide-ranging three hour speech at the start of the twice-a-decade Chinese Communist Party Congress.
By 2030 lead the world in all things, 5G, AI, etc. by 2049 be the center of the world, its leader, the world's super power.
Those are its goals, which conflict with America's position in the world, and its economic and military dominance.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/86 … -dominance
https://www.axios.com/china-plan-global … 4894f.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethe … 11536e594a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JovtmKFxi3cNo, it has not been determined whether the virus did or did not come from bats at a wet market in Wuhan. America has determined that the virus did not come from bats at a wet market, and China has been unable to provide no definitive proof linking the outbreak to the Wuhan wet market.
There is a lot of misinformation, propaganda, fake news and conspiracy theories about the origin of the outbreak of the Coronavirus, most of it coming from America; and its America that is making the claims that it was released.
That is why three days ago (19th April), it was announced that the UK, US and France are jointly investigating the origin of the coronavirus outbreak, considering all options; so nothing has been determined yet.
Nobody denies that the Local Chinese Government in Hubei province tried a cover-up; it was a NEW disease that had no name, and nobody knew how infectious or deadly it was. It would have taken time for Hubei province to recognise its seriousness e.g. we know from other countries that in the first three week, while the virus is silently spreading, that the death rate is LOW during that period.
After the central Chinese Government in Beijing became aware of the situation they took over control and notified the world. Although the actual origin of the virus is unknown at this point, a study of the first 41 cases of confirmed COVID-19 was published in January 2020 in The Lancet, who revealed the earliest date of onset of symptoms as 1 December 2019. Human-to-human transmission of the virus was confirmed by the WHO and Chinese authorities by 20 January 2020.
So it’s not a case of “China Lied and People Died”, it was a case of it was a NEW disease that took time for the Authorities (China and WHO) to recognise and understand. But by the 20th January the world had notification; and some countries, like South Korea, were quick to respond to. Other countries, like the UK and USA were slow to respond to; with dire consequences e.g. Trump’s initial reaction was to down play the seriousness of the situation in the USA, and the USA was slower at introducing Social-Distancing in March than the UK was, in spite of seeing what was happening in Europe.
I do NOT ignore “evidence open and overwhelming” to counter my “China is our friend” perspective. To start with virtually all the evidence you present is from right-wing American political sources that are known to be anti-China, and some of whom are known to fabric the news for their own propaganda purposes.
Secondly, China is NOT my friend. I’ve never forgotten or forgiven them for the Tiananmen Square Massacre of 1989; and I am fully aware that they are prone to imprison political opponents, and that they have little respect for personal rights: A Dictatorship.
However, I do also recognise and acknowledge the good aspects of China e.g. their desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy, and their pragmatic approach to westernising, plus the benefits to Global Trade that such a large Economic Market offers the world; which benefits the UK and EU economically as much as it benefits China.
And I’d much rather see a communist country trying to integrate into the Western World, like China; than one that despises the Western world, like Russia.
Yep, all the things that you list as China’s goals e.g. to become a global leader, for its people to enjoy greater happiness and well-being, to be part of the centre of the world stage etc., they are all the same goals and aspirations of the USA, UK and EU. So What? Are you saying that America should dominate the world, and no one else? Britain used to Rule the Waves a hundred years ago; the USA has dominated the world since the 2nd world war. China has the largest world population; the EU’s population is almost double that of the USA. So what’s special about America that it thinks it should dominate the world stage?
You summed it up in your last sentence “Those are its goals, which conflict with America's position in the world, and its economic and military dominance.” E.g. America self-interest: Europeans are NOT Americans, and so we don’t share the same American-self-interest that America shares. To Europeans the USA has as many faults as China; neither are squeaky clean or Angels.Well Nathan, rather than find additional information to support my position, even though some of the information I provided came from the mouth of Xi himself, let me extrapolate what I believe is going to occur.
War is coming, it will be between America & Australia & Saudi Arabia and any country that joins them VS. China & Russia & Iran and any country that joins them.
I believe we have crossed the line of going back because our economies and our supply lines for food and resources are now destabilizing, and simply put, we have reached the triggering point for the Thucydides Trap.
You can go back 500 years to see the triggering events of global wars, we are at such a time in history now. Whether looking at the Anglo - Spanish War or WWI these wars occur when nations are competing for global dominance, when nations are competing for global resources, and when nations are in crisis (enter the current pandemic and the shut down of our economies).
Whether you realize it or not, China has always been at war with America, their goal is to supplant America on the world stage... peacefully if they could, if America would fade into the night and accept its lesser role in the world and a lesser economic standing... or by war if necessary.
America wins this war now... or it loses it a decade from now... the pandemic has just brought that choice to the forefront before China was quite ready to deal with it.
This is where I feel we are at... time will tell if I have judged things right.Russia yes; they would love a world war: If they thought they could win e.g. their desire to destabilise the West.
China might be rather pally with Russia because they share a similar Communist ethos, just as the UK has a so called ‘special relationship’ with the USA! But China’s desire to be a major player on the world stage is focused on Trade not War. China, after its huge investments in Trade Route e.g. the Silk roads to Europe, has too much to lose by war. America doesn’t like China’s Trade expansion because the USA wants to ‘DOMINATE’ the world, and they see China as a threat to that Domination; in spite of the fact that the USA is currently going through a phase of Nationalism (Protectionism).
Being European I am fully aware of world wars that have plagued Europe for thousands of years. In the past 70 years, since the formation of the EU, this is the first time that Europe has been at peace with itself.
This 5 minute video below graphically shows every one of the 10,624 battles listed on Wikipedia (by year); and quite entertaining to watch.
Time-lapse of Every Battle in History https://youtu.be/HK5OsDWYJmQ
FYI, historically, pandemics have NOT been a triggering event for world wars. The Black Death that swept across Europe between 1347 and 1353 did NOT trigger major wars.
You, like many Americans, have a gloomy ‘Doom and Gloom’ view of the future; I, like many European’s have a more positive view. I’m sure it has a lot to do with our different cultures; but time will tell what the future holds.
BTW: Arthur (not Nathan), albeit nothing to do with King Arthur.
Ken, You have summed it up very well. China has perpetrated one of the most horrendous crimes in the history of the world by unleashing this virus. It's clear China made every attempt to hide the outbreak of the virus, and continue to lie to this day about the numbers it killed in China.
Our society has been so dumbed down that it has become a real problem. I see the proof if this when I see a media able to sell comments the president has made that are clearly presented out of context. They don't question the statement, they blindly believe anything they are fed. They clearly ignore what he has accomplished, and cling to "he said this"...
As if words are more important and should be listened too, while deeds should be ignored. This is purely a mindset that gives way to," do what I tell you, and do not ask questions or look at my deeds... "
This form of mindset is why we see such a divide in our society at this cultural time in our history. We have those that use common sense and those that choose to totally ignore common sense. It well appears many have adopted the mindset that people that live with under communism, and they don't seem to be remotely aware of it.
I find it rather sad, in this day and age of instant information, technology, the internet, and the incredibly vast network of information dissemination, that people who have access to all of this can still live under a rock, where painfully ignorant views continue to be held and, worse, espoused. It's a sad commentary on the lack of resourcefulness of those who ought to know better.The unfortunate thing of “….this day and age of instant information [on the] Internet…” is that too much of it is misinformation, political spin, politically biased, propaganda, and ‘fake’; and too many people don’t know how to ‘properly’ fact-check, or don’t bother ‘fact-checking’.
In British Society ‘WORDS’ are ‘Important’, especially when an American President ‘Tells Lies about Britain’ (Fake News), and insults Britain, the British Parliament, Government, Prime Minister and leading British Politicians. And then the Americans wonder why the overwhelming majority of Brits don’t like Trump.
And it’s not as if the Media takes what he says out of context. In Britain we actually see the words come out of his own mouth when he’s speaking live on TV. In Britain, we see the actual Tweets, written by Trump; as he insults us and our Society.
Just one of many examples in recent years where Trump has personally attacked Britain:-
2017: Trump’s retreat of fake videos causes diplomatic tension between USA and UK Government: https://youtu.be/EQEoTjWv4cE
2018: London protests send clear message to Trump: You're not welcome: https://youtu.be/I6L7CBhVvaYThere is no arguing that Trump's opinions can be shocking, and one can not say is has any fear expressing his opinions. I would think many in the UK might dislike Trump due to his abrasive personality. You must realize the UK is not the only country Trump has a problem with, in fact, his list is long.
However, I believe if the UK were in need of anything, he would be first to stand up. As he did last week sending vents that the UK requested. he does not mince words or drag his feet if one needs help.The rest of the world views Trump as a buffoon as well, Shar. Wonder why that is?
Not sure about that. I do know many leaders have had to withstand the embarrassment of him pointing out some unattractive facts about many things Trump found problematic.
He's laughed at by many of them for some strange reason. Wonder why?
Sorry Sharlee, but Randy is right. I can’t speak personally for the whole world, but I can for Europe, and Australia (where we have close relatives); and across Europe and in Australia Trump’s popularity is very low.
If you have any doubts, then I suggest you at least check out some of the Global Polls e.g. the YouGov opinion poll in the UK (One of UK’s most respected Opinion Pollster) in February 2020 put Trumps Popularity in the UK at just 18%, compared to Obama with a popularity rating of 74% in the UK: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ex … nald_Trump
Global Polls; aggregate median average of Trumps popularity worldwide in 2019 was just 29%, compared to Obama who has a popularity rating of 64%:-
The only two countries in the world (outside of the USA) where Trump is popular are just Russia and Israel.I am not much on polls. I will not argue your point that Trump may very well be disliked by many across the world. I don't think half of the people in America care in the least about what Trump's popularity standing is. Many of us care about what he is doing to make better trade deals, get out of useless world organizations, fix our broken immigration, and so much more.
Personality just does not cut it anymore. We had a guy with a really "cool personality". And that was about all he offered. It's all about agenda, problem-solving, and job performance in my book. So, far I am very satisfied. I don't need a celebrity president, I need a president that solves problems. Not sure why you would think Trump would be popular in Russia. There has been no other president that slammed Russia so hard with sanctions.Hey, Shar, my mother contracted Coronavirus. Would you recommend I feed her Bleach coffee or make her eat a few Lysol wipes?
Or should I buy her a tanning bed?
Just wondering.There will probably be some idiots who try it, Crank. Trump sez...
No kidding. It's like "Jews for Hitler".
But he might put his fingers in your vagina or drool on your hair or maybe he will just stay in the basement and talk out of his head like a goofball.
I assume you'd rather be grabbed by the stable genius instead? And talking about injecting people with a disinfectant are the words of a real "goofball."
The really sad thing is that it's Trump's followers who will be most likely to try this.
Indeed, they're the only people who actually believe anything he says these days.
A few moments ago Trump said he was speaking sarcastically to the reporters yesterday when he suggested using disinfectants as a treatment for the virus.
He simply cannot prevent his mouth from overloading his ass. It's unbelievable we have this moron as leader of the Free World, not to mention scary!
A question for psychologists: Why are some people grossed out by hair sniffing but not pussy grabbing?
Inquiring minds want to know....Biden is clearly senile. The Dems have another winner. So, guess I will be sticking it out with someone that has an innate gift of problem-solving.
"innate gift of problem solving"
I think we must be looking at two different people. One of us is in an alternate dimension. Where is Kirk when you need him?His accomplishments might surprise you. Here is a link that gives a running list of what Trump has been doing these past three years. You may be surprised at all he has accomplished in such a short time. In my opinion, he is a problem solver. You may just not be aware of all he has done due to media not reporting anything positive. Some of us utilize our research abilities to keep up with what the government is really doing. I would be hard-pressed to ignore Trump's job performance. I have never witnessed a president accomplish half as much.
https://colliergop.org/trump-administra … uary-2020/And all this after he inherited a ruined economy from Obama. Wait a minute....he didn't!
But he's so great it will be a piece of cake to get things going again, correct?I'm sure that link is full of facts, like injecting disinfectant into humans will kill COVID-19. Yep. How can any rational person hear something like that and believe anything that comes out of that person's mouth as anything other than 1, a lie, or 2, extremely dangerous?
Keep telling yourself that. The media will be there to enforce it, so no worry.
I think he will have us up and running full speed very quickly.Like IB said to another Trump enabler, I'll file this one away for later reference, Shar.
I said it to her.
When she said Coronavirus would not get to H1N1 numbers. A week or so she tried to ridiculously spin it. SMH
Lets remember for the record. Some brilliant quotes.
"You want "cadavers, look back to all the deaths that occurred, check out the stats from H1N1. Now that kept our undertakers busy."
"Yes, but fewer of all of us will die due to having a president that is doing his job and doing it well during a crisis."
"How about those stats on H1N1. You know the virus that was miss-handled by Obama."
"Obama did nothing. It all added up to nothing. Nothing but a huge death toll. HUGE! This virus will not touch the numbers."
"And I must disagree with you in regard to H1N1. I don't think we will come close to the stats from H1N1. You might want to have a look at the CDCs even the lowest estimated stats in regard to H1N1."
US Coronavirus Deaths: 52,092
Unfortunately, she was wrong, as all of us knew at the time.So it was Ms. "Common Sense," IB? I thought so but wasn't sure. I do believe she's starting her own Trump-like record of misinformation.
I believe these were my quotes.
"How about those stats on H1N1. You know the virus that was miss-handled by Obama."
"Obama did nothing. It all added up to nothing. Nothing but a huge death toll. HUGE! This virus will not touch the numbers."
"And I must disagree with you in regard to H1N1. I don't think we will come close to the stats from H1N1. You might want to have a look at the CDCs even the lowest estimated stats in regard to H1N1."
You forgot to list the one where gave my experience with H1N1. You know the one. The one where I shared my job requiring me to wrap babies, children daily. And the fact that I was always angry about the fact Obama was doing nothing to help stop the spread or help the medical community to handle the crisis. Nothing, Zero. I obtained my view due to my own experience during the H1N1 crisis. You got yours from an internet site that provided stats and actually listed how little was actually done during the H1N1 crisis. So, had I hoped I would be right about a death toll with COVID, yeah I hoped I would be right. I hoped I would not ever live through such a tragedy again. Sadly -- I certainly was off on the count.
I have to ask, have you done anything to help your community during this crisis? I am proud to say I have. I have volunteered my nursing skills. At this point three shifts a week caring for vert patients. Not so bad this time around, no children or babies to monitor or watching parents suffer as their children die... Am I angry at a president this time around --- No, because we have one that has stepped up and is doing all he can to defeat this virus. So, thanks for quoting me on how I feel Obama handled H1N1. Never have I made a more true statement. I am reminded of his negligence often by my sad memories of the H1N1 crisis. Still wrapping bodies, but not one baby or child thus far.
So, in regard to those stats. You wear the badge of honor for your prediction." Sadly -- I certainly was off on the count."
You seem to be off on a number of issues, Shar. You don't blame Trump for his handling of the virus but you do blame Obama? Okay!
I don't remember Obama going on TV everyday, boasting and bragging, lying about non-existent cures, suggesting dangerous treatments, and generally screwing up the virus update. Do you?
Have you had your lysol injection this morning, Shar?I think I made myself very clear in regard to how Obama handled H1N1. I will stand corrected if you can point out actually anything he did to stop the spread and death for H1N1. Never, too proud to admit when I am wrong.
As I said it saddens me to be off on the count. I had so hoped it would not kill so many.
IB post actually sickened me... it did make me realize I have nothing in common with the majority that post here. Most forums offer some form of comradery, even with varying views one can find friendships, a bit of respect for one another. This morning made me fully realize this not to be true here. So, I will be on my way leaving this space for the few that enjoy each other's company on this forum.
I will leave with the last word. Maybe consider people as having diverse personalities, they don't fit in with a herd. These are the people that buck the system, look deeper, make changes when they see change is needed.All she did was point out you were wrong. She did not attack you, yet you sound as though you feel somehow victimized.
"All she did was point out you were wrong."
The final indignity, for Trump and his supporters it seems. Shar needs to work on her "flounce," or better yet, learn not to make excuses or predictions for the Man-baby.It's painful to watch Trump supporters defend their man.
I do believe it will get worse, Sandy. The desperation of both Trump and his supporters is painful to witness at this point, not that it already wasn't.
Well, I hope she will flounce back. She shouldn't take any of us so seriously. Even if we disagree about the fundamental quality of Trump's job performance and character, I can tell she is a nice person. We all would probably have a splendid time together in real life.
When you can't support your position, you run for cover. It's only natural.
Me too Sandy, it just shows what kind of division this admin has sown.
LOLOLOLOL She left because of the constant attacks and trolling in these forums from by a handful of people that, at every opportunity, will insult anyone not on their Demonize Trump bandwagon.
And you blame Trump for those actions?!? Are you responsible for your actions, or is always someone else that makes you do them?You wish! She left because she was proven wrong and couldn't stand being told so. Who does this remind you of? You see this every time Trump is wrong as well. As I said, Trump's supporters have a lot of his bad traits, otherwise they wouldn't identify with him or make excuses for his stupid mouth crapping.
You're correct: as you said, you offend and belittle those not of your political persuasion ("...Trump's supporters have a lot of his bad traits..."). Pretty much what I said as well, isn't it?
Nope, I belittle stupidity, Dan. Seems to be a lot of this from Trump enablers. Just suck it up and deal with your choice of POTUS. You got what you wanted, didn't you? Did you expect him to suddenly become a good and respected person after he was elected? If so, that was your mistake, not mine...
Shar's problem was she was trying to have reasonable discourse with people who are not looking to have such.
She was attempting to rationalize with people who are not here to exchange information, they are here to vent and belittle others that do not believe as they do.
Hubpages is a great place to have open discourse with those who have opposing views, it can be civil and informative and worth one's effort... but only if you learn to ignore certain eccentric posters rather than engage them.Usually belittling occurs after information has been exchanged and one person ignores all rational and logical conclusions or provides false information to draw their conclusions. After their information has been contradicted yet they continue to hold their insane and/or ridiculous position, only belittling is appropriate.
Correct, if the person refuses to accept facts when they are plainly evident, then they deserve what they get. If they want to flounce away in indignance, then so be it. No one made them spit out untrue opinions.
Perhaps it used to be; now one is belittled and insulted simply because they don't join in the Trump Bash fests. Anyone even mentioning anything good that Trump has accomplished is automatically an idiot, deserving of being insulted.
Rather sad, but it is what it is.It's a fair point. I know I personally have commented that I think Trump's China policy is something he can be commended for, however inconsistent it might be.
However, when your President suggests that maybe people should ingest disinfectant products on national television and then poison centers around the country suddenly have double the number of calls they used to have because people listen to him, it's hard not to belittle such things and those who continue to support that idiot.
And, you know, sorry to use the word "idiot", but those are the kinds of things idiots say. If my kid's school principal had said such a thing, I guarantee you he'd be fired in a second, as would almost anybody in a position of responsibility.You mean when your president suggests such a thing (although I've listened to that sound bite several times and every time it seems to me he questions if it would work, not suggests that people do it)?
That "support that idiot" includes you, you know - you approved of his actions in China. Does that mean you should be belittled as a "Trump supporter"?When a President suggests something as a possible solution, unfortunately, people try it, which is why a President is supposed to be responsible with his words.
I feel sad for those Trump supporters trying the bleach solution, which must explain all those extra calls to poison control being reported.
From your point of view, should Trump be vilified for making such a statement or should we just lament the stupidity of the people actually following the suggestion? I guess Darwinism could just run its course. I mean, after all, if you're dumb enough to drink bleach, perhaps you get what you deserve.Don't you mean when he publicly asks the experts if it might be a possible solution? Because that's what I heard.
From what I heard no one actually tried it; they called poison control to see if it would work. You never know though; I recall the guy (or gal, not sure) drinking aquarium cleaner...
Again with the assumption that only Trump supporters (and I assume all Trump supporters, including yourself) will drink bleach.
Both. He made an extremely stupid comment, particularly for a president in a press conference, and anyone doing it is even more stupid. But you're right - it might improve the gene pool.I'm not immune to the idea that anybody stupid enough to drink bleach probably isn't exactly contributing a lot to the gene pool.
". . . only belittling is appropriate"
At the risk of butting in, I would say belittling is never appropriate. The position of a 'belittler' is an ugly and dangerous one. But of course, that is just my opinion.
Then there is also the matter of the contradiction. What is being contradicted, facts, or opinions? Relative to the current subject of this discussion tangent—Sharlee, it is opinions that I have seen be declared to be unequivocally contradicted, (as in wrong), when in fact many seemed to have been reasonably and factually presented. Of course, that doesn't make those opinions right to everyone's way of thinking, but disagreeing with them doesn't make them wrong either.
GAShould the suggestion we drink bleach to combat Coronavirus be belittled or argued with reasonably?
Argued with, criticized, condemned, even called dumb, yes—by all information I have to make that judgment.
Belittled? That would not be my choice. What if, as fantastical as any possibility might seem, it is discovered that a one-part per million solution was found to be beneficial, (hold on now, that is a hypothetical thought, not one I know to be possible), how would you feel about your belittling then?
My thoughts on the act of belittling are just that Crankalicious—my thoughts. We are all free to have our own opinion of that action. If you feel justified to do it, have at it.
GAI don't ever want to see a person of Trump's ilk elected to the WH, Gus. I will belittle anyone who does as long as I have the power to do so. He is a great danger to this country's former values. If you can't see this, then hard cheese!
Thank you. That's pretty much what I said; if someone doesn't agree with your political stance they deserve to be belittled and receive offensive language. Hard cheese, as you say, because they are on the other side of the political fence.
And you blame Trump for divisiveness and for belittling people that disagree with [i]him[/]!You are in luck Randy. You will forever have the ability to belittle to your heart's content.
GADoes your comment indicate Trump is not worthy of the office, Gus? Or what?
What does your question have to do with the conversation?
GAI'm trying to figure out what you are getting at, Gus. Or are you simply avoiding the query?
I thought it was clear the conversation, (the most recent tangent), was about the act of belittling people Randy. I also thought my point was clearly stated.
If that point wasn't clear to you then, hopefully, it is now. And yes, I am ignoring your question. It was irrelevant to the conversation. Just as your replies to my comments were.
GAI think it was clear to Randy. He just couldn't stand the irony of your opposition to belittling a Trump supporter.
Isn't belittling a characteristic they value?
When belittled, shouldn't a Trump supporter reasonably be expected to admire the person doing the belittling?
That is a valid point, no matter how silly it may sound. Every medication I can think of, right down to aspirin, is deadly if taken to excess. All are technically poisons, designed to kill something.
"Some of us utilize our research abilities to keep up with what the government is really doing."
And there is no more objective resource for a Republican president's jib performance than a Republican website, right? Your "research abilities" are amazing!I decided not to go there Sandy, as it wouldn't do any good to point that out to a self proclaimed "fair and balanced" Trump fan.
I ask the same as I asked of PP. Please provide anything you find to be not factual on the website I provided.
Did I say they were not factual? I agreed they were conservative slanted, just as your Donald Trump site.
Yes, the site a Republican site, and naturally has gone to great lengths to list any and all with a slant. But was presented in well put together organized fashion. Trump's statement in regard to disinfectants was ridiculous. And addressing the Doctor's about his crazy suggestions was also ridiculous. I found his comments shocking.
Each and all listed is factual. Just saying. And yes why would I not present a conservative website. I am a conservative. If you find something on the list you find untrue I would be interested you provide it. Just because you don't like what you read just does not make it untrue, not factual. I feel my research abilities are good. I provided you with a resource if you feel any of the information is untrue as I said to provide me with an example. My party has a lot to be proud of.
What would be the point? You consider a tax cut benefitting the wealthy and adding to the deficit to be an accomplishment. I consider it a payoff to himself and his cronies.
You consider his immigration policies to be an accomplishment. I consider sick and dying children in cages to be a failure.
You think his pandemic performance is superb, I think it's an embarrassment.
And, you don't care what he says and consider his stupid and dangerous remarks to be irrelevant to his job performance. I say any one of us who said such stupid things on the job would be fired.
So, again, what's the point ? I see you're hilariously attempting to smear Biden with behaviors for which Trump gets a pass. These things do not go unnoticed.I get your point and will respect your views. I regard to comparing Biden to Trump. Just a point I had hoped to make to Randy. I wanted to get the point across (and I can see it did not travel well) that now Dem's will have the same decision many had to make in 2016. Two candidates that are problematic to put it lightly. I know you have made it clear you wouldn't vote for Biden. So, not sure why you care about my views about him.
Well, let's get this figured out once and for all. You have repeatedly stated, ad nauseum, that you support Trump for his agenda and superb job performance. All that other stuff--the lying, the pussy grabbing, the bullying, the stupid statements--is not important as long as his actions reflect your agenda.
Yet, you focus on Biden's perceived character flaws, which pale in comparison to Trump's. You and other Trump voters have lowered the standard so low that there will likely never be a candidate whose character you can attack without being laughably hypocritical.
If agenda is so important to you, why don't you focus on how much better Trump's policies are than Biden's? I could take you somewhat seriously then. But as long as you try to make Biden out as some pervert, while continuing to defend that pussy-grabbing, lying POS, you just look pathetically hypocritical.
So you bought into the Fox News campaign to portray Biden as senile, when it's your guy suggesting people should have disinfectant injecting to cure the virus? Okay!
Exactly. Trump suggested people be injected with disinfectant, but Biden is the problem.
Come on Randy have you watched any of his interviews?
Joe Biden is senile. No questions about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mksxt33xgic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4VH2JjWDnk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH-y_w0O5Bw
"We choose truth over facts..."
"My name is Joe Biden I am running for the United States Senate..."And suggesting people get injections of antiseptics is the words of a sane person?
I suggest Trump injects himself with lysol and stick a grow light up his @$$ to show how effective his suggestions are. That I'd pay to see....I watched the first video up here, they had to go through a long time period to make this. With Trump, you can pick a single day and make a longer video.
EDIT: And it would at least be funny.Just does not come up to good old Joe's all kind of crazy. I feel very sad to see this man that served his country well, now make such a fool of himself. This will only get worse. I would think any Dem would be very disappointed with their party at this point.
Not sure why you felt it necessary to direct such a rude comment my way. Did you read the comment you responded to? You certainly felt the need to make an attempt to insult me, to try to bait me. You're a pitiful human being.
YUCK!Hmmm, I don't know. President Trump suggested it. I thought that, as a nurse, you could provide your expertise and provide a medically-based, rational explanation. I was actually giving you a compliment in a way - that I trust your judgment more than our President's.
I don’t know why he’s popular in Russia, other than he is very pally with Putin; far more friendly towards Putin than any of the European Leaders.
No he isn’t doing anything to make better trade Deals; quite the reverse.
The USA has Trade Deals with only 20 counties (one tenth of the world). The EU has Trade Deals with 70 countries (one third of the world), including the old British Empire countries, which includes Canada and Australia, and a Trade Deal with Japan.
The negotiations for a Trade Deal with the USA and EU is now in its 11th year, with little progress being made in the past four years; one of the main stumbling blocks being American’s instance that the EU (Europe) lower’s its ‘Food Standards’. Admittedly it was tough negotiations that Trump inherited from Obama, but Trump has done nothing to resolve those negotiations.
Trump withdrew from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) Trade Deal, which was a big mistake; as the other countries continued without the USA; those countries being Canada, Japan, Australia, Brunei, Chile, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam.
The British Government is desperate for Trade Deals with other countries before we fully leave the EU at the end of the year; and in spite of Trumps repeated promises over the past four years that he wants a Trade Deal with the UK; talks have stalled because America is insistent that the UK lowers its ‘Food Standards’
Trumps Trade Wars with China is hurting America as much as it hurts China, and likewise; Trumps Trade Wars with the EU (Europe) is hurting America as much as it hurts Europe (and the UK).
Trump’s policies isn’t for Trade Deals, it’s for Nationalism, and isolationism; which for a nation that would like to think itself a world leader and centre stage, the USA is isolating itself from the world.Your comments about the 'food standards' part of the trade deals prompted me to look into it.
I hope the Uk holds its ground. If our companies want to export to the UK I think they should meet UK's standards.
GA
FYI Trump’s claim’s about sending Venerators to the UK, and elsewhere is ‘fake news’ (for the benefit of the American Public). American doesn’t even have enough ventilators for itself (last I heard); let alone the rest of the world.
FYI British Industry has produced most of the additional ventilators the NHS required: A consortium of British manufacturers, UK Universities and the NHS has worked together to meet the needs of the NHS; and 21 major British manufacturers are working together to manufacture them for the ventilators for the NHS.
Unlike New York the UK has not been in crises over a shortage of ventilators, and the first British made ventilators from the consortium of British manufacturers, arrived in time to install into the new NHS Nightingale 4,000 bed Hospital built in just 10 days (the biggest hospital in the world), opened three weeks ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … rtium-head
https://www.pesmedia.com/ventilator-cha … al-220420/
One nurse's week at the NHS Nightingale coronavirus hospital: https://youtu.be/H6pDcV2LnnoNo one in the entire US that needed a vent was not provided a vent. Not sure where you would have gotten that idea. We now have 10 thousand sitting in our Stockpiles and are at the point we can sell vents to other countries. Two of our Largest Automobile companies are producing vents at a very rapid rate to do just that. Many of the states that were provided vents during the crisis sent their vents to other states to aid in build state stockpiles.
The president, as well as the VP, provided the vent production stats numbers on most daily COVID19 briefing. Yesterday the president did say they would be shipping 200 vents to the UK. Hopefully, if they don't need them they will pass them on to another country that might need them.
In a press conference on April 8th, Trump did claim the UK requested 200 vents, and that he was going to work out it so they could receive them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-_ytvjH9-0
Trump built numerous hospital facilities in many states across America to handle any overflow of the patient if needed, most have remained empty. I in no respect meant for my comment to insult you or the UK. I was just pointing out that we have had a good alliance with the UK. Perhaps this is not true or at least some feel it untrue.
To be honest, I never thought about or am I interested in how the UK has handled COVID19. I would think they are doing what all countries are doing to fight this virus... The very best they can. At any rate, I have no interest in playing "we did this and you didn't" back and forth game.If you fact-check, by the end of March the UK had calculated that it would require an additional 18,000 ventilators by the end of April. At that time it asked British Industry to manufacture most of them (from scratch), but also (to edge its bets) sought to obtain ventilators from established manufactures around the world, including an order it had placed with an American Company in late March for 200 ventilators; plus 300 from China.
Trump’s public speech to the American people on the 8th April made ‘political capital’ out of that:-
Firstly he said that “The UK called today and they wanted to know whether it would be possible to get 200, and we are going to work it out……..” That was a lie e.g. he had nothing to do with it because they were pre-ordered in March with an American Manufacturer; and the order was placed two weeks earlier, not on the 8th April as Trump claims.
In the three weeks since then, with British manufacturers in full production; we now have far more ventilators than we need. In fact with most of Europe now reaching or passing its peak in the outbreak, the world is quickly becoming awash with ventilators. So there’s not going to be much of a market for American manufacturers rushing to produce them for exporting to other countries.
The shortages of ventilators in the USA seemed evident from the crisis in New York. Plus with the USA edging towards ending Social Distancing prematurely (unlike the rest of the world), it’s quite probable that the USA will be heavily dependent on ventilators for some time to come.
I am grateful that you don’t wish to insult me or the UK, and I to think that ‘tit for tat’ arguments are counterproductive. I’m not trying to have a dig at you by any means; it’s the fact that Trump persistently tells lies about the UK and insults the UK that greaves me and my fellow Brits; bad for PR (Public Relations).
The good alliance the UK has with the USA which you refer to is called “Special Relationship”; it was a phrase first coined by Winston Churchill in 1946. Since then there has been a so called ‘Special Relationship” with:-
• Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, and
• Tony Blair (Labour Prime Minister) with Bill Clinton and George Bush
Although there is a close relationship between the USA and UK in a number of key areas, including security, critics do call the “Special Relationship” a myth. Either way, since Trump has been President that “Special Relationship” (real or imagined) has been strained for a number of reasons, including:-
• Trump hates the elected Mayor of London because he’s a Muslim (many insults by Trump directed at London, the London people, and the London Mayor).
• Trump wants a Canadian Style Brexit, or Brexit with no Trade Deal with the EU, so that the UK can make a Trade Deal with the USA. Consequently, he frequently insult Theresa May, and praised Boris, because her style of Brexit would have prohibited a Trade Deal with the USA, while Boris’s style of Brexit would allow for a Trade Deal with the USA.
In spite of that the relationship between Boris and Trump hasn’t been particular close since Boris has become Prime Minister because Boris hasn’t budged in the areas that Trump wants him to e.g. Boris is refusing to lower British Food Standards so that America can export food to the UK, and Boris is refusing to allow American Medical Insurance and Drug Companies buy into the NHS e.g. privatise it.
Part of this “Special Relationship” which the USA has a keen interest in maintaining is the sharing of data between NSA and GCHQ; the importance of which to the USA should be obvious from this video below:-
UK Spy Cable Revealed: https://youtu.be/BN744Pcr3W4
As regards how the UK is handling the COVID-19 crisis:-
1. We are the 5th worst affected country in the world, because Boris dithered for 10 days (allowing the virus to spread) before he finally ordered a complete lockdown of the UK, economy and people.
2. The NHS has proved its worth, and its future is assured e.g. none of the problems that New York faced. Ever since its creation by the Labour Government in 1948 the Conservative Party has despised it, and tried to undermine it, and under fund it because they saw it as ‘pure Socialism’. But now that it has come of age during this crisis the Conservatives admire and praise it; and in future it will get the funding it needs, regardless to which Government is in power.
3. The Police have been given ‘special powers’ for the duration of the ‘National State of Emergency’; and they are using it to keep everyone in their homes, other than for essential journeys. The Police State in the UK isn’t anywhere near as tough as it is in Italy, but it’s a lot tougher than it is in the USA.
4. Although everyone are locked in their homes, and have been for the past month, and likely to be for at least another month; the spirit and morale of the British people is high. As high as it is in Italy and Spain, where citizens have been locked in their homes for two months now e.g. the European ‘wartime’ spirit.I am pleased to hear the people of the UK are keeping their spirits high. I will certainly take your word on how the UK acquired the vents that they needed and the fact that they acquired them through an order.
I can once again assure you no one in America went without a vent or was turned away from a hospital. We have vacant newly constructed field hospitals sitting empty. The crisis is being handled differently in America, one must keep in mind we are a country of 334 million. It took great effort to gather all the PPE, Vents as well as hospital beds to handle a crisis of this nature. I am an RN and volunteered to work during this crisis in one of our largest Detroit Metro hospitals. I can assure you all that presented were well cared for, even during the spike in patients. New York also met the challenge of caring for any and all in need.
I will accept your opinion about the president's misrepresenting how the UK acquired the vents. I have no way of proving his statement. It seems odd he would make up a call from a representative from the UK. However, if your government has claimed this to be a lie, I will take your word.
In regard to the failing alliance. Trump has certainly let it be known his agenda is America first. So, I can understand that you feel the UK and American alliance has been damaged. It clearly most likely has been. Many here are over and done with certain elements of globalization and are headed in a new direction.Pleased to hear New York met the challenge of caring for all in need; I guess from your comments that Gov. Andrew Cuomo was exaggerating the crisis in New York in his daily briefs?
The only two rich countries that didn’t have enough ventilators to meet demand at the peak of their outbreak, was Spain and Italy, and that was only because they were the first countries outside of China to be hit heavily by the virus, and therefore didn’t have enough time to prepare. In spite the fact of global recognition of Italy (especially Northern Italy) having the best Health Service in the world.
The UK and France were the only other two European countries to be heavily hit by the virus; but that was because we were too slow on implementing full lockdown; and paid the price for it in lives. Albeit, by the time the virus hit France and the UK we were prepared; so like the USA there has been no shortage of hospital beds or ventilators to meet demand.
I know that you trust Trump too much, and therefore can’t believe that he frequently lies about the EU & UK; which being on the receiving end of his lies I find frustrating. So, I don’t think there is any mileage in presenting further video clips or tweets exposing some of his lies as you will probably not be receptive to them.
Except, this lies below, back in 2015, which outraged the British Public at the time is worthy to note, as one of many.
2015: Donald Trump claims parts of London 'are radicalised' (A LIE): https://youtu.be/CRYrnIW5nU0
In response to the lie above, Boris Said This of Trump:-
2015: Boris Johnson: Donald Trump 'out of his mind' over radicalised London comments: https://youtu.be/p4EAc0QFubs
2017: Petition “Prevent Donald Trump from making a State Visit to the United Kingdom” received over 1.8 million signatures; the third highest petition to date, presented to the Government. Consequently the State Visit was downgraded and postponed for two years. And on the back of that the ‘Speaker’ John Bercow banned Trump from Speaking in Parliament; an honour which is usually bestowed on a President on such an occasion.
Also, Trump has a habit of calling facts that he doesn’t like ‘Fake News’ a prime example being this video of when visited London last year, and made the claim that the tens of thousands of protestors against him was ‘Fake News’: https://youtu.be/GbGcGnTgtw8
Yep I know that many Americans “are over and done with certain elements of globalization and are headed in a new direction.” That is nothing new, America has always done things differently to the rest of the world e.g. Lower Standards on ICT, Food etc. And it is the lower ‘Food Standards’ that concerns most British people in any proposed Trade Deal e.g. America’s insistence that we lower our food standards so that America can import their food to us.
Boris Johnson tells US: no NHS trade deal and 'not keen' on chlorinated chicken: https://youtu.be/_BEe2T81jtg
The UK Government is desperate for Trade Deals before we finally sever our links with the EU on the 31st December 2020 e.g. even without the Covid-19 virus, the UK, in our isolation, is rapidly heading for economic chaos anyway. But in spite of that, as things stand, most Brits do NOT want a Trade Deal with the USA because Trump has made the British people very anti-American.
And fortunately Boris is not the pushover that Trump thought he would be.
Finally, I am impressed in the way that the differing private hospitals, which normally operate independently, and for profit, in the USA have been brought together to offer ‘Universal Health Care, to All, Free at the Point of Use’; to tackle the Covid-19 crisis. Which is the healthcare system Britain has enjoyed for over 70 years.
As a nurse, you might appreciate why we Brits are proud of our NHS: - https://youtu.be/bDdZCv5v2RgNot sure it proper for you to assume that I trust Trump or believe all he says I assume he is like most politicians when it comes to lying and patting themselves on the back. After many years of putting up with phony politicians that campaign on lies that they perfectly know they have no intention of keeping. I have adopted a brand new outlook on choosing those that will represent me in my local, state, and the federal government. I consider the agenda first, then the politician's background. I give little thought to their speech-giving qualities or their appearance. I look for a realistic American first agenda, and I do this because for many years I feel the USA has stuck their noses in other's business far too long. We need to care for our own home fires for a bit. One needs to remember why there is an America.
I can understand your dislike for President Trump, his media coverage is certainly negative, and easy to except due to his totally new way of governing. We have never had a president that was hands-on, and daily out there doing the countries bidding.
I would well assume many in the UK dislike everything American, they have for many years. This is unfortunate, but I do not lose any sleep over what another country feels about my country. That is just my view. In regards to our health care, our citizens are severely divided on the subject. I prefer to pay for my healthcare. I have always preferred choosing my doctor and having the opportunity to"shop around" for any form of needed healthcare. We have Government Medicare and Medicaid to provide healthcare for those that do not have the ability to pay for insurance.
I can't comment on your healthcare system. I am acquainted with Canada's healthcare system due to being well acquainted with many Canadians. I spend my winters in Puerto Vallarta Mexico and the majority of my neighbors are Canadians. Many elect to have elective surgeries, as well as dental work, is done in Mexico due to having problems with waiting lists and feeling unsure of Physicians that they are assigned to. Many having the complaint of not being able to have a doctor of choice and feel the care is non-personal. I have friends that live in
Windsor Canada preferred to have surgeries here in the Metro Detroit hospital. It would appear your Universal Health Care in the UK has worked well due to it being around for so many years or I would think the people would have opted for another healthcare system. I think it wonderful that you are proud of your country as well as your traditional ways of handling healthcare. Tradition is important to all, I guess this is one reason I hold on to my right to keep the healthcare I have been lucky enough to enjoy.I made my assumption on your unwavering protectiveness of Trump with phrases like “It seems odd he would make up a call from a representative from the UK.”; whereas to me it’s not odd, he lies all the time.
Your comment “….I assume he is like most politicians when it comes to lying and patting themselves on the back.” Is an interesting one that I would like to reflect on:-
There is an old joke that was popular in the 1980’s when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister:-
Q: “When can you tell when a politician is lying?”
A: “When he opens his mouth”.
There is a lot of truth behind the joke, to a point; but in Europe, and in Britain specifically, at least (I can’t speak for American politicians, or Politicians in other parts of the world), historically, politicians may not always have been honest, but outright lies hasn’t been part of British politics.
For example, Theresa May never lied, but she was not always truthful; the label she was given by the News Media for the way that she frequently presented ‘half facts’ was “being economical with the truth”. It was her style.
Before the Trump era, if a politician in the UK was caught telling a BIG LIE in pubic they would be under a lot of pressure to apologise, retract their statement, or resign. Boris Johnson (Prime Minister) is the only major politician in the UK who can lie and get away with it; I guess because Trump has set a bad standard. But even then Boris is not a pathological liar, he only lies when he thinks it will suit his call e.g. he has a habit of telling his target audience what he thinks they want to hear.
That’s one slight difference between British and American politician, your comment “phony politicians that campaign on lies that they perfectly know they have no intention of keeping”. It doesn’t work that way in the UK because of the ‘Salisbury Convention’; which dates back to 1948.
In 1945 Labour (Socialist Government) won a landslide victory (their first time in power ever); so it was at a time when the unelected upper chamber (House of Lords) was still dominated by Conservative Peers.
The clash came in 1948 when the newly elected Labour Party wanted to push through their Socialist reforms, including the Welfare State and NHS. That created an impasse in British Politics because there is NO WAY a Conservative Chamber would allow the passage of Socialist Policies.
The impasse was resolved because the Leader of the House of Lords, Lord Salisbury (a Conservative Peer) reasoned with his fellow Conservative Peers that it would be undemocratic for an unelected chamber (House of Lords) to block the policies of the elected lower chamber (the will of the people). His fellow peers conceded to the reasoning and the Conservative Peers in the unelected House of Lords approved the Socialist Policies that Labour was elected on in their Election Manifesto.
Therefore, to this day, what matters in British Elections is what’s in the Election Manifesto of the winning party. Anything in the Election Manifesto, the House of Lords will honour; if it’s not in the Election Manifesto then the House of Lords are free to vote as they wish.
Fine, how you decide to vote, and what criteria you use to make your decision is your prerogative; that is democracy. My politics is Socialism, so quite naturally I look for whichever political party can best represent my social and political views; which is usually Labour, but not always e.g. back in 2012 I and my wife and son jointly decided to vote for an Independent for Bristol Mayor, rather than Labour (or any other party); and to our delight he won with 53% share of the votes:-
In countries where their healthcare works, which is most of the rich countries (if not all), most people do take pride in their own healthcare system. The one thing that puzzles Brits (myself included) is why Americans are so happy to fork out thousands of $ each year from their own pocket, in health insurance, and then have to pay every time they see their doctor, pay huge sums for their prescriptions, and pay for an ambulance if they need one etc., and why Americans are so happy for the poor to be given a 3rd rate health service (3rd class citizens)?
In the UK it’s all free to everyone at the point of use, rich and poor alike; and there is no discrimination e.g. the Royal family and the Prime Minister are given the same healthcare as a single unemployed mother with no income other than State Benefit.
In the UK you do have choices:-
• You can choose your own doctors; we’ve changed doctors three times since we’ve been married.
• In the UK, if you feel ill you can choose to see your doctor, walk into any hospital with an A&E Department (Accident and Emergency), see your local pharmacy for help and advice, walk into a local ‘Walk in Centre’ and or just phone 111 (Free) for advice. And in an emergency phone 999 for an ambulance (which is free).
These short educational cartoons by the NHS are entertaining and informative:-
Choose Well - Dee's A&E Fail Tale – NHS https://youtu.be/ffT1orYXdcI
Call 111 when it's not a 999 emergency https://youtu.be/UwYmC1YK1vE
Your Comment: “I think it wonderful that you are proud of your country as well as your traditional ways of handling healthcare.”
Yes I am proud of the NHS, very proud, as the vast majority of Brits are. However, I can’t say I am ‘proud’ of my country!
I am proud to be European, and I am proud to be Bristolian, and there are many things about Britain that I am proud of.
But there are also lots of things about Britain that I am NOT proud of, including:
• I am not proud of Britain’s pivotal role in the ‘triangular slave trade’ (especially Bristol) at the time when Britain transported 2.6 million slaves from West Africa to Americas.
• I am not proud of the British Empire, which at its height, over 100 years ago, Britain occupied 26.35% of the world land mass, and controlled 23% of the world population. The Biggest Empire in History. 4th July is a reminder to Americans of Britain’s Empire days.
• I am not proud of the way England still tries to dominate over the ruminants of its Empire with the Celtic Nations in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
• I am not proud of the irresponsible way the British Government has acted over the past four years with Brexit; and the damage that will do Britain for the next generation or two.
However the things that I am proud of include:-
I am proud that Britain’s Magna Carta of 1215 is the foundation of all free democracies in most of the Western world, including the Constitution of the USA.
I’m also proud that Britain operated a primitive welfare system (Poor Laws) for the poor from 1349 until 1834; long before any other European country introduced any meaningful form of welfare for their poor.
I’m also proud that the Industrial Revolution started in Britain, and spread to the rest of the world.
I’m also proud that the first Trade Union Movements started in Britain and spread to the rest of the world.
And I’m very proud of the Victorian Engineering; the extensive railway network that serves Britain to this day, the sewers and water supplies (many of which are as good as when they were built, and still in use today), and the Victorian London Underground; the oldest tube/subway train system in the world, and one of the Biggest.I can see you are very clearly proud of your country in the end. As you should be the UK is a well-respected country, as it should be. All I can leave you with is Trump will be gone in a year or at the most five more years. However, I don't really see many will give up on his way of governing. He may leave a deep footprint, and many will not want to return to the prior status quo. Just my view.
As a Registered Nurse working in Michigan, according to the Web the Average Registered Nurse Pay in that State is $86,000. I don’t know how accurate that information is?
But as a Registered Nurse you might be interested in comparing Nursing in the USA compared to the UK?
If so, for your information:-
The NHS, which is Government owned and funded is the 5th largest employer in the World.
The NHS employs 1.5 million people, and unlike the USA, nurses and doctors in the NHS are not Private employees, but Government Employees.
With a population of 66 million, there are 1,257 NHS hospitals in the UK.
In UK Registered Nurses in the NHS are paid according to Grade, Qualifications and Experience. In the NHS there are 9 Registered Nurse Grades, and their pay is as follows:
The Registered Nurse (NHS) pay in Band 1 after 7 years’ experience (lowest grade) is £30,615 ($37,754) per year.
The Registered Nurse pay in Band 9 (top Grade), with 5 years’ experience at that grade is £104,927 ($129,364) per year.
Most registered nurses in the NHS typically earn between £21,000 ($25,891) and £35,000 ($43,152) per year.
Before she retired my wife worked for the NHS (Admin), in the BRI working in Partnership with Bristol University. And while there her team took pride in developing the ‘Bristol Stool Chart’ which is now used worldwide.
I am now retired after working in the field for 25 years. An RN today depending on the state they are working in and education level are pain differently. On average a new RN would walk into a position and make $50,000 with yearly raises. This also fluctuates on the area or specialty the nurse has chosen to work in. An ICU nurse makes more than a Med-Surg nurse. Nursing can be a lucrative profession in America. It depends on experience, and as I said education. Many RN's continue their education in a chosen field of nursing while working. These are the nurses that naturally earn more. Our contract nurses make about
$ 60.00 an hour. Hospital wages vary from $ 45.00 to $55.00 per hour. Again this depends on education, length of employment and state one lives in.Thanks for the info Sharlee, most educational, and interesting to read.
You may find this of some interest. A Pregnant American Woman now living in the UK, and who had her first child in the USA, and is having her second child on the NHS. She gives her thoughts and comparisons of the USA healthcare vs the NHS in the UK (quite educational) https://youtu.be/AGdQkkc_Pts
Nathan, I was the NCOIC in charge of all communication coming from the SIPRnet to the 101st Division Commander in the EOC after 9/11. If it came from the Pentagon or the 18th ABC or from the WH itself it came through me first, for months.
I had boots on the ground in foreign lands during operations that don't even exist.
I ran patrols along the DMZ and have seen firsthand the psychotic fanaticism of North Korean Special Forces.
I did all those things before I hit the age of 30, two decades of additional experiences have only made me wiser and more understanding of what is going on in the world.
Dismiss what I have to say when it comes to Foreign Affairs and International Conflicts if you like... but one thing I know better than you ever could... is how the American Government, Military, Intelligence and Media works.I don’t dismiss your views on foreign affairs and International Conflicts out of hand. I do fact check your points and your sources; and all too often we come to different opinions.
My philosophy is that no one is ever 100% right (myself included); so I do frequently challenge my own views, and occasionally modify them. The most classic example of that being that I was sceptical of Global Warming (Climate Change) back in 2012, but since I’ve recognised how serious it is, and ultimately, if the USA continues to dismiss it then USA’s inaction to fight Climate Change will have serious consequences for the rest of the world.
I’m not as ignorant as you think I am either; I may not be familiar with the American Government, Military, Intelligence and Media; but being European and with my Government experience, I am very familiar on the workings of the British Government, military, Intelligence (MI5, MI6 & GCHQ) and the Media; and with Russia on our doorstep, very familiar with the real threat that Russia is to the West.
This Might Put a Smile on Your Face!?
GCHQ Audit: https://youtu.be/NnIe_rkLdbw
And I am fully aware of the threat that, with a tin-pot Dictator, the threat that North Korea possess to the West, particularly America.
Ken,
I work for a German high tech company, which was bought by a Chinese investor 3 years ago. So i have close contact to Chinese partners.
In early January news spread about a new virus in Wuhan. We had long discussions on the issue, especially because China every year has some kind of virus outbreak. This rigid lockdown appeared to be totally strange. Why?
In our discussion it became very clear that inside China a political struggle was going on between local authorities and the central government. Red army troops moved into Hebei province, commanded from Beijin and not from Wuhan.
A good month later i noticed this jung Russian China expert Nikolai Vavilov:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nDIc7_8dVk
https://south-insight.com/node/218407
If you go through his statements he moreless confirms the internal struggle inside China and has something interesting to say about the power triangle China - Russia - USA.
Ken, you seem to be spot on with you chain of arguments. At least this professional analysts comes to similar conclusions.
A little remark: There are no conspiracy theories. There are only some people, who utilize incidents, catastrophies for their own purposes much faster than others and with a much wider strategic approach.
China´s Xi Jinping seems to be this kind of a person.
Trump is too much twitter tactics. Xi is running circles around T. on the geopolitical stage.
Putin plays the natural resources card and tries to team up with Xi.
The Corona virus has taken away all political firepower from Wallstreet. Where is Blackrock to invest, when you don´t even need a quarter to buy cruide oil?Thank you for the reply and the links.
It is a rather simple situation to understand, which is why it can be frustrating when debating it with those who see it from a flawed perspective.
Some people try and say Russia is a serious threat to America, but it is not, because Russia will never be a country that will compete with America as an Industrial, Technologically Advanced Nation trying to supplant it on the Global Stage.
Russia does not have the influence with enough of its neighbors, nor the population size to exploit, to become capable of usurping America's position.
China does.
China has leaped ahead of America in AI, Social Engineering, 5G, etc. it is collecting up trade alliances all across Africa (which is to China what China used to be for America 30 years ago, a cheap source of labor and materials) and western Asia.
It is positioning to supplant America as the Global leader, as its reserve economy, as its Industrial and Technological power house.
China wants to rule the world, China wants to be superior to all others in the world, and America and the EU had been happily going right along with it.
And the Democrats/Globalists support this, interesting that Mr. Vavilov (?) discussed these and other points so matter of factly.
He also recognizes the need to keep China as a strong ally, without it, Russia is in a terrible position and it would only be a matter of time before Russia became the next Venezuela, a failed state that is totally bankrupt.Indeed Ken, Putin wouldn't hurt a fly.....
I think you miss the point Ken.
Russia does not want a direct military conflict with the USA; I agree on that.
But Russia is a military threat to Europe; and that is something that you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge.
I have full faith the state leaders will do their best. Although I also know the arm chair pundits will complain and go on, ad nauseam, on how it should have been done. Using regurgitated ideas from media pundits.
Just like we've witnessed here on Trump's response.- PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago
0I have not read the plan in detail, but on the surface it seems reasonable. I trust my Oregon Governor to competently handle the situation.
The Trump fans in my state are planning a mass protest at the state capital because they want to open up everything now. I think they will probably inadvertently prove that not following social distancing recommendations is a bad idea.Hmm. Trump fans. Are you positively certain all people considering protesting are Trump fans?
I doubt it.All I can say is that every person I know who is going or supports it is a Trunp fan, but sure, there might be a few non Trump fans in there somewhere.
Well, I suppose it's better to protest a lockdown than ignore it completely and run primaries endangering all involved.
Individuals are protesting where a political party encouraged ignoring it.
- PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago0
lol, just saw this. I love how the protestors, who are protesting losing their freedoms, are too chicken to get out of their cars. Too funny!
https://www.registerguard.com/news/2020 … at-capitol
And there were dozens! You can't make this stuff up.That's law abiding citizens. They protest within the limits of the law.
Yes, the protest was peaceful, I live in Michigan and our local news reported it was well attended and peaceful. It did appear some were there to promote the second amendment. I received a letter from the organizers and they asked us to stay in our cars make noise, and keep it peaceful and respect safe distancing. I did not attend. I have been notified there will be another this week.
The protest was organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition and the organization asked that people stay in their cars to respect safe distancing. I received an email from them asking me to attend, and make sure to respect the safe disrancing by staying in my car. I did not attend. I did see on my local news there were many that did protest on foot and did not respect the wishes of the organizers. The protest was called Operation gridlock. Another is planned for this Wednesday. They have once again asked all to respect safe distancing.
Our State police sad there were over 10 thousand cars and the protest was organized and peaceful. They expect there will be more attention this week.
The protest was planned to protest some of the Governor's strict guidelines for the period od the "lockdown". Many were unreasonable and appeared to be illogical to many citizens of Michigan. Our Governor was late to close casinos and found it necessary to leave liquor stores open in the state. This became a problem due to people congregation in and around Liquor stores. Many felt she left them open due to lotto revenue. She prevented sales of seeds and any form of gardening supplies, paint and lots more from stores like Home Depot. ( which has remained open) These are just a few of her orders that people objected to complying with.
Michigan was once a very Democrat state that now is predominantly Republican.Yeah, the first I heard about these protests, they were in Michigan - and the news (that I watch, anyway) was interviewing protestors who were talking about how strict some of their restrictions are. They sound pretty ridiculous. This virus started in Seattle and we have been on lockdown since early on - and I'm pretty sure, even this city full of liberals would have complained had things been that strict - especially for this long.
I would imagine that governors in general, are too proud to ease up on them - that would be like giving in and 'giving up control' to people who are NOW turning more unreasonable. Because what may have started as some valid complaints has turned into a bunch of jerks complaining about how their freedoms are being trampled on.
This is what is coming out, now: "If I get sick, that's my choice. If my neighbor gets sick, that's their's."
BS!
Because we all needed yet another reason to despise the free speech rantings of T-fans, apparently - at what cost this time? Damn, you are all really really HARD to love, lol!
Maybe a little context might help paint a more accurate picture
Multiple sources, both Left and Right-leaning, and the original organizers of the protest say it isn't about the concept of a "lock-down," or stay-at-home orders, but about particular aspects of the lock-down.
For instance; it appears that some of the restrictions are hard to understand; you can go out in a canoe or kayak, but you can't go out in a motorboat. You can go to the Home Depot and buy hardware and lumber, but you can't buy grass seed.
There were other restrictions that were being protested, but those two give you an idea of what prompted the protest. It doesn't appear to be the simple fact of having to abide by social distancing or stay-at-home rules.
When I asked Google about the Michigan protest the above context was mentioned in almost every source. As was the organizers' stated purpose and guidelines for obeying the Governor's general social distancing orders.
Perhaps those that stayed in their cars were trying to make that point? And the idiots standing in groups on the capital steps with their firearms in prominent display were just that—idiots.
I like your thought about the irony of those latter folks possibly being the 'proof of the pudding' in the next few weeks.
GAThe organizers have their stated objectives, but I can guarantee you that the rank and file are grumbling about the loss of freedom at the hands of that commie, Godless Democrat Kate Brown.
My husband bought grass seed at Bi-Mart a couple of days ago. Also, we took a drive up to Ben Irving Reservoir and saw multiple motorboats on the lake, but perhaps they were breaking the law.I thought you lived in Oregon? If you live in Michigan—the comment topic I replied to, then your non-essential drive to the reservoir and grass seed purchase seems to be breaking the rules of the lock-down restrictions. 'Shame, shame' ;-)
GAI beg to differ. ;-) Note bold. Not sure where you got the info on grass seed but it was in the store and the store was open.
The Order includes the following provisions:
All non-essential social and recreational gatherings of individuals are prohibited immediately, regardless of size, if a distance of at least six feet between individuals cannot be maintained. Gatherings of members of the same residential household are permitted.
It closes and prohibits shopping at specific categories of retail businesses, for which close personal contact is difficult to avoid, such as arcades, barber shops, hair salons, gyms and fitness studios, skating rinks, theaters, and yoga studios.
It requires businesses not closed by the order to implement social distancing policies in order to remain open, and requires workplaces to implement teleworking and work-at-home options when possible.
It directs Oregonians to stay home whenever possible, while permitting activities outside the home when social distance is maintained. It closes playgrounds, sports courts, and skate parks, among other types of outdoor recreation facilities. Those that remain open are required to strictly adhere to social distancing guidelines.
It outlines new guidelines for child care facilities, setting limits and rules on amounts of children allowed in care, and outlining that child care groups may not change participants.
Failure to comply with the order will be considered an immediate danger to public health and subject to a Class C misdemeanor.
https://www.govtech.com/em/emergency-bl … k-down.htm
Edit: Sorry, I see now you are referring to Michigan while my original comment and link was about Oregon.
From across the pond, the mass protests (regardless to reason) in Michigan just seem so bizarre during a period of ‘lock-down’ because in the UK it is illegal to gather in groups of more than two people in public; unless it’s the immediate family, and even then if I decided to go with my wife and son in the car to the supermarket we would almost certainly be challenged by the police because we would be a group of more than two people.
During the period of the ‘State of Emergency’ in the UK the ‘Police’ were given ‘Special Powers’, and Social Gathering was criminalised. The penalty for a 1st Offence is £60, and then it doubles each time for subsequent offences e.g. £120 for 2nd Offence, £240 for 3rd Offence etc., and if you don’t pay the fine it’s a ‘Contempt of Court’ (automatic Prison Offence).
So if people mass protested in the UK, like they are doing in Michigan, the police would break-up the protests and there would be mass arrests and fines imposed; and if needed the Army would be called in as support.
And it’s not just in public, isolated incidences in the UK where neighbours have gathered together in back gardens to hold a BBQ have been broken up by the police, with fines being imposed.
As regards the specific examples you give GA:-
I don’t know about canoe, kayak and motorboats in the UK, but I would suspect they would be deemed illegal in the UK as they would be classified as a ‘non-essential’ journey e.g. it is permitted to visit a Park as part of your daily exercise in the UK, provided you Social Distance (keep 6 feet, 6 inches away from everyone else); but sitting down to have a picnic in a local park is frowned upon by the Authorities as it’s classified as a ‘non-essential’ journey.
As regards ‘Home Depot’ (called DIY Stores in the UK), and buying grass seed (from Garden Centres in the UK). All garden centres have been closed to the public in the UK because they have been classified as a non-essential service by the Government (so you can expect many Garden Centres going bankrupt this summer). However, DIY Stores have been classified as an ‘Essential Service’ by the British Government; but they are not allowed to open their stores to ‘in-store’ shopping. If you want to buy something from a DIY Store (which is what I am in the process of doing at the moment), you have to place your order on-line and either collect from a temporary designated collection point in the Store’s carpark (so that you don’t come into direct contact with store staff or other members of the public), known as ‘click and collect’ or have the goods delivered, which is the option I’m going for.
Another Store, along with food stores (supermarkets) that has been classified as an ‘Essential Service’ by the British Government are ‘Off-Licences’ (known as Liquor stores in the USA); so I’m not quite sure what that says about the British drinking habits – lol.LOL The liquor stores are open in my area, too, as an essential service. The rational I heard was that the profit goes to the state and the state needs money plus that alcoholics that can't get their liquor will clog the hospitals; hospitals that are needed for treatment of the virus.
Using the second rationale it would seem that we should be handing out opioids, cocaine and meth.
That sounds spot on, I'm sure there are Brits who wouldn't say no to some Weed (marijuana) to pass the time while locked down in their homes! lol.
Weed is not even legal where I live. The ENTIRE neighborhood smells like pot when I go outside/take a walk during the COVID lockdown. Police don't care about marijuana, just the harder stuff. Funny.
I think alcohol withdrawals are more dangerous than coke or meth.I’m not an expert on the subject; I wouldn’t even know what cannabis smells like (shows how ignorant I am on the subject). It’s something the police are always hot on in the UK, so you don’t see much evidence of it in Society; although the Liberal Party would like to legalise it.
In the UK, from 1928 to 2004 it had always been classified as a ‘Class B drug’ e.g. a lesser offence than a ‘Class A’ drug like heroin.
From 2004 to 2009 the Labour Government downgraded it to a ‘Class C drug’ (minor offence); but they reclassified it as ‘Class B’ in 2009.
However in 2017, under the ‘Ten Minute Rule’ cannabis was legalised by Parliament in the UK for Medicinal Purpose. The ‘Ten Minute Rule’ is another quaint British Tradition.
The way the ‘Ten Minute Rule’ works is that the first backbencher politician MP (from any political party, and who is not part of the Government) to arrive in Parliament on a Wednesday morning has the right to introduce his own ‘pet’ bill (Private Members Bill) to the House of Commons. Then three weeks later that MP has 10 minutes to speak in favour of his ‘Bill’, and one other MP is allowed 10 minutes to speak against it. Then the MPs in the House of Commons vote on it. If such a Bill is passed by the House of Commons, which isn’t very likely, then the House of Lords may throw it out.
So the odds of such Bills becoming law are very slim, only 60 (Private Members Bills) under the ‘Ten Minute Rule, since 1945 have ever become law."It’s something the police are always hot on in the UK, so you don’t see much evidence of it in Society; although the Liberal Party would like to legalise it."
Ah...a reason to be proud of the good old USA. It will likely be legal federally here soon...behind some other countries but not behind the entire world at least.Yes, it’s an interesting topic, and on whether it should be legal or not doesn’t seem to have any clear answers.
One area where Britain is more Liberal than the USA is on alcoholic drink. In the UK it’s legal to:-
• Buy your own drink and drink in pubic from the age of 18.
• Drink beer, cider or wine in public from the age of 16, if someone over 18 buys the drink for you and you consume it while at a table with a meal.
• And it’s even legal to drink any alcoholic drink in the privacy of your own home in the UK from the age of 5.
Being legal to drink alcohol at home from the age of 5 is based on a long established European practice of parents allowing their children to have a glass of wine at the dining table on special occasions e.g. to join in with the celebrations at Christmas, for birthdays, and anniversaries etc.
FYI Cider in the UK is not like the USA cider e.g. British cider is an alcohol made from fermenting apples, and generally cider in the UK is a lot more alcoholic than beer; especially Scrumpy.
Should You (in the UK) Let Your Kids Drink Over Christmas? https://youtu.be/BbvgvFTkFUI
I don't think I could adjust to your British-style of government acceptance Arthur. For instance, what is the logic of 6'6" vs. just 6'?
Thinking of having to estimate a 6-foot distance here in the U.S. seems reasonable, but your 6'6" conjures images of your 'Bobbies' running around with tape measures. No slight intended, but it is a funny mental image.
Regarding the Michigan protest, I can accept the in-vehicle planned protest as a reasonable effort to speak to their government, but the yahoos that gathered in groups, (on foot), especially the gun-toting ones, should have their noses tweaked.
To your point about more than two people in a car; what if you were a living group of four? You would be in close proximity to each other all the time in your home, but it would be a violation to be in that same condition in a car? Hell, even two in the car are violating your 6'6" rule.
If the DIY stores in Micaghan were restricted to the rules you speak of for yours then I don't think the protesters would have viewed the 'grass seed & paint' restrictions as nuts, but their stores weren't restricted as yours were—the stores were open to customer traffic. As such, that seems to me to be a nutty restriction.
I have a lot of respect for British stoicism, but . . .
GA"Thinking of having to estimate a 6-foot distance here in the U.S. seems reasonable, but your 6'6" conjures images of your 'Bobbies' running around with tape measures."
Don't be so provincial, GA! 2 meters is 6'6"; bobbies need carry only a 1 meter stick just as our cops need only a yard stick.Damn, I forgot about the conversion factor, (but it's still a funny thought). I seem to recall an instance of a satellite programmer making the same mistake. ;-)
GAThat's OK, GA. We forgive you; extreme age brings senility which in turns brings forgetting how to measure things. We love you anyway.
Yeah, they say your memory is the second thing to go. (I can't remember what the first thing was)
GA
Yep, as wilderness said, we use metric in Europe, hence the 2 metres (6 feet, 6 inches).
Yes the Government had to clarify their ‘more than two in public’ rule. They would have been better off by saying what they meant in the first place rather than using “I Robot” type rules e.g. the second rule is ok if it doesn’t violate the first rule etc.
What the Government meant, as clarified by them is that:-
1st Rule (Social Distancing): You should only be out in public on your own, and keep a distance of 2 metres from everyone else.
2nd Rule: But you can be out in public with someone else, if they live with you e.g. husband and wife (Social Gathering of no more than two people); but with the exception that if it’s family (other people you live with), such as children, then you can be out in larger groups. But in practice, if you are in groups of more than two people, the police are likely to challenge you!
The only place where it’s tricky not to risk social gathering is supermarkets, when buying food….. I’ll get back to that later, as I am being called to finish dinner off (finish cooking it) so that the family can sit down to our evening meal with a film.
I’ll be back later……"...rather than using “I Robot” type rules..."
!!! Don't tell me you're an Asimov fan! I didn't think you guys even read the good doctor!Yep, we've got the 'I Robot' films on Blu-ray; I loved his books as a teenager. I and my son are both avid Sci-Fi fans, with a wide range of taste in sci-fi genre from the classics (Star Trek), Cults ('V'), camp (Lost in Space), comedy (Red Dwarf) to the modern (His Dark Materials) etc.
Currently, my son is keen for me to watch sci-fi films with him late at night, after my wife has gone to bed. Something which we can't normally do together often because he's usually working most nights, or going out pub quizzing with his friends on his nights off. But as he can't currently work (or go out) because of the lockdown its a golden opportunity to catch up on all those films and TV series that we don't normally get enough time to watch together.
The first week of the lockdown we all watched the last series of 'The Game of Thrones'; my wife watched that as well, as it's one series she does like. Last couple of week's my son and I have been watching the new 'Westworld' series. And this week we're working our way through the 'Resident Evil' film series.Hi Arthur, never had time to get back with you on this. From among the three science fiction greats; Heinlein, Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke.
, Clarke was my favorite.
He was the writer and inspiration behind 2001: A Space Odyssey, a film that captivated my imagination when I was a kid and saw it for the first time. Just all the more confirming my passion for space travel. I had to read the novel to figure out what it was I was seeing in the film.
"Lost in Space" novel in its TV debut in 1965, got pretty campy by its last year of 1967. They always crashed landed on earthlike planets where Ms. Robinson could dote over her vegetable garden.
Star Trek, in its debut in 1966 was far more sophisticated and while it had a season of two years only, it developed one hell of a cult following.
Which Star Trek series was your favorite?
Original
Next Generation
DS Nine
Voyager
Enterprise
Or the current version.My favourite Star Trek series in order of preference are:-
1. Enterprise
2. Voyager
3. DS Nine
4. Next Generation
5. Original
6. Discovery, and
7. Orville (inspired by Star Trek)
My son’s preference is slightly different e.g. he’s not as keen on Enterprise as I am, and rates the Discovery higher than I do; but we both love them all, and have most of the series on DVD or Blu-ray.
Although ‘Orville’ is an odd one for the Brits, because in Britain the word ‘Orville’ is strongly associated with a ‘duck’; so the name doesn’t seem quite so fitting for a Star Trekker type sci-fi.
Orville the Duck (an icon in Britain): https://youtu.be/teiA9rfV9G0Here were mine, Arthur
Enterprise: a technically excellent transition from our time to that of the Star Trek universe.
Next Generation
Original Series
Voyager
DS 9
Orville
Discovery- a bit too bizarre for me.Good choice, that’s why Enterprise is my favourite too e.g. very nostalgic, especially the opening scenes with theme tune and words.
Likewise, the Discovery Series is near the bottom on my list, also because it’s a bit bizarre.
Great Minds Think Alike – LolHow the heck did you all get on Star Trek?
We're watching STNG with the kids. They're loving it. They're 9 and 11. I wanted to start with the original series, but the wife thought STNG would be more to their liking. Of course, there's more of it too.
I've enjoyed all Star Trek, but I think if you see the original first, the original is your favorite. I actually haven't seen Enterprise. Enjoyed both Discovery and Picard, though I think the former is better and more interesting. Picard was nostalgic and fun, but not overall great. Good, but not great.
Anyone seen The Expanse? We're binging that show and every night we turn off the episode in a sweat. Damn exciting show.Yes, I saw the original Series of Star Trek as a kid, and it was great. Although it wasn’t until after my son had seen ‘The Next Generation’, DS 9 and Voyager, that I finally managed to get hold of the Original three Series of Star Trek on DVD as a Christmas present for my son; which he thoroughly enjoyed watching.
As you said, I think if you watch the Original Series first it does make a difference e.g. because I saw the Original Series as a kid, I find Enterprise very nostalgic (brings back all the memories of the original series). Whereas because my son didn’t see the original series until after watching the newer series (Next Generation, DS9 and Voyager), he doesn’t find Enterprise nostalgic.
No we haven’t seen ‘The Expanse’; I had a look on the Internet, after reading your reference to it, and it looks cool from what I see from the write-ups etc. on the Web.
Unfortunately the first two seasons of ‘The Expanse’ were only ever broadcast in the UK on Netflix, which we didn’t have at the time; we only subscribed to Netflix just before Christmas. Now, the original Series and new Series are only available on Amazon Prime in the UK; which we are not subscribed to.
Our all-time favourite TV Series (which even my wife enjoys watching) is ‘The Game of Thrones’. One of the all-time most expensive TV productions on record, starting at $6 million per episode in Season 1, and ending up at costing $15 million per episode in Season 8.
The things we love about ‘The Game of Thrones’ include that:-
• It’s very loosely based on the ‘War of the Roses’ (a civil war between royal families in England between 1455 and 1485), and with artistic license incorporates other elements of European history from the Roman Empire to Medieval Times, including the Vikings; so it’s fun spotting all the historical references to British History, and
• It was filmed on ‘Location’ throughout Europe, rather than in a studio e.g. in Iceland, Northern Ireland and various regions in the Mediterranean etc. The locations where it was filmed have now become popular tourist attractions by ‘Game of Throne’ fans.
Game of Thrones Filming Locations in Northern Ireland: https://youtu.be/HAh8h-yTas0I've watched every episode of Game of Thrones. Loved it, up until the final season, where it crashed and burned kind of hard.
Yep, fair point; I read that the critics weren’t too impressed with Season 8 either; although I was pleased that Tyrion survived, I was rooting for him throughout all the series, once he’d revealed his good qualities.
Hi GA, I got as far as ‘supermarket’ shopping before I had to sign off to do tea (evening meal).
In the UK, food shopping is the only time of any risk of infringing ‘social distancing’ so to minimise the risk both the Government and supermarkets have issued guidance and conditions.
The Government advice is to shop for essential items e.g. don’t shop just for luxury items, and to shop as infrequently as possible.
As in Australia (where our cousins live), and in other countries across Europe; the supermarkets in the UK have imposed their own strict regime for shopping:-
Prior to Covid-19 about 10% of supermarket sales was ‘Home Delivery’. Economically viable for supermarkets because money they save on the cost of keeping in-store shelves stocked covers the cost of delivery, so provided you spent more than £50 you’d get the food delivered to your door either for a nominal fee or free. My wife used them occasionally, in the weeks they were offering ‘free delivery’ e.g. saved the effort and time of physically driving to the local supermarket.
However, since the lockdown demand for on-line deliveries has soared, as millions of Brits want ‘home delivery of food’, and thus overwhelmed the supermarkets home delivery services; making it nigh on impossible to get a delivery slot. To try to ease the situation competitor supermarkets are now working together, to share resources e.g. share vans, stock and staff with each other as appropriate.
It seems to be working, because for the first time since the lockdown my wife finally managed to book a couple of delivery slots (one for next week from ASDA supermarket), and one that arrived at 10:30pm this evening in a ‘hot dog’ van for food that she ordered from the Morrisons supermarket.
As regards making a visit to a supermarket, the supermarkets in the UK have marked queuing lines, 2 metres apart; in their carparks e.g. you line up outside, one person per line until the supermarket lets you in. It was up to two persons per marked line e.g. family shopping together; but last week the supermarkets tightened up their rules to further strengthen social distancing.
When it’s your turn, the supermarkets let you in one person at a time, and once inside the supermarket you are meant to observe the social distancing and keep 2 metres away from other shoppers (described as 2 trolley lengths). Supermarkets have installed protective screens at the tills to help minimise the risk to staff, and some supermarkets have drawn white lines at 2 metre intervals on the shop floor.
Initially, British supermarkets limited sales to just 3 purchases per item, but earlier this week lifted that restriction on all but essential items e.g. milk, bread and eggs etc.
Shopping for just non-essential items in the UK is prohibited; so a lot of people got caught out over Easter when then nipped to their local supermarket just to buy Easter eggs (a non-essential item), then got fined £60 by the police for making a non-essential journey. Ironically, the police discouraging people from buying Easter Eggs resulted in some supermarkets having surplus stock that they couldn’t sale, so they donated them to children homes and the NHS.
The one thing that has the ‘full’ public support in the UK is the supermarkets decision to priorities: NHS staff 1st, elderly 2nd, and everyone else last:-
In the first hour that the supermarkets open in the mornings only NHS staff are allowed in to shop. Then some supermarkets only allow the elderly in for the next hour; before they open their stores to everyone else.
I truly appreciate your respect for British stoicism; something which I think is now deeply embedded into the British psyche from the 2nd world war (wartime spirit): A trait I’ve seen surface on a number of occasions in Britain during times of crisis.
Although I do admire the Italians, their lockdown is a lot tougher than Britain’s e.g. they’re not even allowed out to exercise; yet their spirits have remained high.
Italian police clamp down as deaths rise: - https://youtu.be/rkeqcAuGP9o
The Italians Making Music on Balconies Under Coronavirus Quarantine:- https://youtu.be/EBByYjjvNzs
An anti-lockdown protest in Austin, Texas, drew anti-vaxxers and Trump supporters chanting 'Fire Fauci'
Austin's "You Can't Close America" protest
Jax Weaver, 33, an out-of-work Austin photographer who went to the protest with her 7-year-old daughter. “I’m not worried about catching the virus,” Ms. Weaver said. “If we did catch the virus, I feel that we’re healthy enough to fight it. And I think it would help us build immunity.”
Dave Litrell, 46, held his 6-year-old daughter as those surrounding him chanted to reopen the American economy outside the State Capitol building in downtown Austin.
“I don’t fear a potential pathogen,” he said. “I think there’s potential pathogens around us all the time, and for the most part, we’re healthy.”
A group of children held up their homemade sign — “Open our school: Education is a God-given right” — while others waved placards reading “Shut down the shutdown.” Nicole Adkins, 37, a stay-at-home mother and Army veteran who lives near San Antonio, held a sign that said “Flatten the Fear.”
Some shook hands. Others hugged. More than a hundred people rubbed elbows and shoulders, their signs and flags touching, many with their faces unmasked.
The rally was organized by Owen Shroyer, the host of a show on Infowars, which is headquartered in Austin and traffics in conspiracy theories. Infowars, described the spread of the virus as a “Chi-Comm globalist bioweapons attack,” a reference to the Chinese Communist Party. “America knows it’s a hoax,” Mr. Jones said of the pandemic.
Fire Fauci ChantsYes it is. I hope those babies don't get sick.
Or their grandparents when Mom and Dad return home, infected and not realizing it. After all, don't you know, exposure has given them immunity!
As far as I can tell around here, there is no such thing as covid. Our county has had 30 cases and one death. The one guy who died was in hospice care.
I know of exactly zero people who either are ill or have been ill in my county. In serious past flu seasons, literally everyone I knew was sick or had been sick, and sometimes the schools were half empty because so many kids were out sick.
I do know a total of five people in other parts of the country who had some kind of bug that they think might have been covid. Of those five, one was tested and was positive. She is a nurse who had been assigned to work with covid patients in the hospital.
Around here, covid looks like "the flu that doesn't kill anybody" or even make anybody sick.
The hospitals here are empty and are laying people off. I have family members who work in health care who keep me informed on these matters. One family member has been considering volunteering for one of the expected layoffs, as she has been offered a job in NYC working with covid. (The pay for this "traveling job" is rather impressive.) But she is concerned because they will guarantee her only a two-week assignment, and she is doubtful about getting her old job back upon her return, because the continuing expectation of layoffs in health care. In fact, she is worried that the hospital that currently employs her could go bankrupt. It is a very real possibility that many, many hospitals will close due to lack of patients.
That's what's going on here on the ground: no covid, no dearth of hospital beds or respirators. I am so frightened that I have considered buying a box of Kleenex.
It is easy to see that the stupid protests and attitudes are associated with Trump supporters, and it is not a coincidence. I just had no idea that there were so many.
The Rightwinger is never the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Imagine people saying that because they are healthy there is no real threat? If they would give any credence to science it was made clear that you could well have been infected, yet be asymptomatic for days. In the meantime you could be a source of infection and risk to others.
How stupid and selfish!! It that is OK, let them do their thing, it has got to result in fewer Trump voters this fall.Well of course it is! After all, two carefully chosen signs are a complete vindication of the idea that everyone there is a Trump supporter. Besides, Trump and anyone agreeing with any of his actions is stupid, right?
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ … -lockdowns
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … strictions
Alright, Wilderness.
Do you have journalism evidence available that supports your view?
Trying to tell me now, that this is not just another trashy right wing protest movement?
Rightwing supporter=Pro Trump
I don't suppose you realize that liberals own this disastrous policy. Nor do you realize the strength of the opposition to it, or the depth of the anger.
One way I know this is because I've spoken out against it and have received several messages from people who tell me that they agree, but they feel they can't speak out. Sometimes it's because they teach in the local school district and it could cost them their jobs. Some are local business owners who avoid taking public political positions for business reasons. Some are people whose livelihoods depend on the goodwill of the whole community or who have leadership positions in area churches and don't want to contribute to tearing apart their churches or other community organizations.
The backlash (if I may take the liberty of prognosticating) will deal the Democrats staggering blow at election time.
Health care workers stand in the street in counter-protest to hundreds of people who gathered at the State Capitol to demand the stay-at-home order be lifted in DenverI have been a bit behind, surely Trump did not say that people should inject themselves with disinfectant that kills germs on the surface of things. I saw this warning from Lysol discouraging people from this approach, as if they would be dumb enough to believe Dr. Trump at his word.
They say Biden is nuts, buthow can anyone suggest a medical remedy and approach that is so ridiculous? His handlers need to get this Trump fellow back into his muzzle. After the malaria drug fiasco, this is strike 2.Biden is not nuts. At most, he is experiencing some age-related difficulties getting his words out. Trump, however, actually is mentally ill. Any normal person who is in charge during a crisis would not speak off the cuff at a press conference about matters that require specialized expertise. He is a narcissist, though, and truly believes he can offer brilliant insight or innovative thinking, but all he does is appear incredibly stupid and foolish.
- PrettyPantherposted 3 years ago0
May I remind everyone that the post to which Sharlee responded with such offense was from Islandbites and all she did was quote Sharlee's own words, to show that she initially minimized the coronavirus crisis in a manner similar to her hero Trump.
You all know IB is not one to insult people, and she didn't in this case, either. All she dud was prove Shar wrong and that, apparently, offended Shar enough that she did the forum "flounce."
I'm nit saying insults done happen. They certainly do but Shar flings her share as is evidenced by her multiple instances of being banned. This particular flounce is actually pretty funny because it is exactly like her man Trump to get huffy when someone exposes his mistakes.
Whatever, I always say the faint of heart should stay away from debate forums, and getting insulted by having your own words bite you in the @ss is pretty darn touchy.
Shar, it's not that big of a deal. What will Randy do without you to spar with?
The Perspective View of the USA from Across the Pond:-
As I watch the daily news from the UK the impression given of the USA is that it is in panic and chaos, and rapidly nose diving towards disaster to become a third rate country rather than centre stage in the world; just like the UK did when it lost its grip on the British Empire over a century ago!
Of course that perspective maybe due to CNN’s reporting style (the only American news channel on British cable TV), and the fact that I don’t live in the USA and therefore can’t experience it first-hand. Hence, I’m curious on what the American perspective is on where the USA is heading, and how well or badly it’s handling that path into the future?
The things I notice from afar (across the pond) is that:-
• Unemployment has risen in the USA by 26.4 million over the past 5 weeks,
• While unemployment in the UK has risen by just 1.4 million over the same period.
Some of the States in the USA are easing their restrictions too soon and by too much e.g. Californians flocking to beaches, with the real risk of allowing the uncontrolled spread of the coronavirus throughout California, and onto the neighbouring States if the California borders with those States are not closed. We’ll get a better idea of whether California and other States who are easing their restrictions have acted rashly or not by the end of May.
Other countries, who have been in lockdown far longer than the UK and USA e.g. Wuhan, Italy, Spain and Germany etc., are tentatively easing some restrictions, but not to the extent of American States.
China’s economy has started to grow again, so one major British manufacturer who exports to China is making preparation to re-open (to 80% capacity) mid-May, and will be operating in accordance with Government Rules on ‘Social Distancing’.
South Korea (to the best of my knowledge) was the only country in the world to clamp down hard and clamp down fast to fight covid-19, so they avoided the epidemic and their economy is relatively unaffected.
The UK is in no hurry, as its current policy is ‘wait and see’ policy e.g. wait to see how other countries ease their restrictions, and how successful or otherwise that easing is, and what mistakes those other countries make; before the UK tentatively ease restrictions, learning from the mistakes of others.
So it may be that with a more cautious approach, European countries will emerge sooner and stronger economically than the USA, pushing the USA into a less major role on the world stage; if the USA does a ‘crash and burn’ through hasty uncoordinated action?
Nobody knows at this point; but maybe in a months’ time we may get a better picture which nations are faring better because they made better choices in handling the epidemic and their emergence from it?
As regards public opinion; the latest opinion polls in the UK show that the British Public still fully support the Government’s lockdown policies, and are more worried that the Government might be tempted to ease the restrictions prematurely, than they are about the prospect that Britain could remain under tight restrictions for the remainder of the year.
In the UK, the Local Government elections, and Mayoral elections, which were due to take place in May have been cancelled until further notice. Do you think the Presidential election could or should be postponed if the USA is still gripped with the pandemic in the autumn?
I guess the American perspective is different?What strikes me as odd about this virus is that it doesn't seem to have a real existence in the county where I live. I know NO ONE (in this county) who is sick or who even has been sick. During the flu season of 2017-18, literally everyone I knew was sick or had been sick with the flu, and much of my Facebook feed consisted of people complaining of illness and asking for good home treatments.
My county has a population of 34,618. Our county health department reports 35 cases and ONE death, and this was of an elderly man in hospice care. This gives us a death rate, vis-a-vis the entire population, of 0.1%.(Although, frankly, it rather seems to me that it is perhaps not appropriate to count a person in hospice care as a covid death.)
But I guess we are hard-hit compared to the rest of the state. Missouri has a population of 6.1 million, and we have had 274 deaths, giving a death rate of 0.0045%--putting your chances of dying at less than 200th of one percent, or about on in 20,000.
In most of the US, fully half of all deaths are of residents of nursing homes. Most of the remaining deaths are, as is well known, of elderly people with one or more co-morbidities. Quite a few among these are people who are known in the health care trade as "frequent flyers"--people who have been in and out of the ER and ICU on a revolving door basis for some time.
If you are under the age of 70, your chances of dying of covid are 0.0013%, or about one in 60,000.
To put this in perspective, the nearest good-size city to me has a population of about 54,000. Statistically, it is fairly likely that there will be ONE covid death among the residents of that city--with an even chance that that person will be a nursing home resident, and a more than even chance that that person will be over 70, with one or more co-morbidities.
I am puzzled that anyone thinks we even have an epidemic. I see no sign of it, and, statistically, it seems to me that there is no basis for it.Your logic seems skewed to me Blueheron. You are saying that you don't see an epidemic because your county hasn't been hard hit by it . . . what about New York, do you see epidemic proportions of infections there?
Also, shouldn't your calculated death rate be based on infected persons and not total populations?
GA
My opposition was to the act of belittling. That Trump supporters were the target of that act is secondary and was not a part of my comments.
Your mention of "irony" seems to imply that I am okay with some folks doing it but not others. I don't understand where that comes from. Have you seen me support or approve of it when someone not of Randy's bias does it?
Assuming your "they" means folks of the 'Right', I don't know if they value it or not. I only spoke to my thoughts on it. And your last statement doesn't make sense to me. It reads as if you are saying the receiver of an inferior act should admire the giver and I don't see that logic at all.
GAMy point is that Trump is admired for belittling others, but then when Trump supporters are subjected to it themselves, they don't seem to like it.
I was speaking to the general theme of the discussion and not your particular opinion because, to my knowledge, you have never belittled anyone.In other words, Trump and his supporters can dish it out, but they don't want to take it. Their indignance is hilarious!
Much like the hypocrisy of damning such an action...and promptly engaging in it, right?
There has never been a person as POTUS worth "damning" until you helped place Trump in his present position. Be very proud and somewhat responsible for his many lies and unworthy arrogance. He was like this before he became POTUS as you were well aware he wouldn't get any better.
I would damn any world leader, no matter what party or country they represented, if they acted like your choice of leader. I've damned Hitler many times in my life, have you?
I see your point now, and I can agree that there are some Trump supporters that may "admire" his actions. But the ones that do have character issues of their own, (just my opinion of course).
GA
GA, this is just the data for the state of Missouri, which I think speaks for itself. This is how many people who have died, per capita. (Hardly any.)
The death rate based on the number of infected persons will probably always be largely an unknown. One reason for this is the faultiness of the tests, and another is the many, many reports that the cause of death is often incorrectly (read "fraudulently) attributed to covid. Hospitals are paid (if I remember the figures right) $13,000 to treat patients who test positive for covid, and $39,000 for patients with covid placed on ventilators.
Determining the true infection rate would require serological testing of a decent sample of the population. This has been done in some places. I have seen reports that, in some places, the percentage of people who test positive for antibodies is as high as 40%. It is believed that the "silent attack" rate--that is, the percentage of people who acquire asymptomatic cases of covid is around 50%.
I am thinking that extensive serological testing for antibodies would collapse the whole narrative.I would question that "many, many" cases of fraudulent reporting. While I'm beginning to see quite a few statements and memes on FB making that claim, I have yet to see a single, verified, report that it is happening. While I don't doubt that it is happening, at this point I have to change that "many, many" to a tiny handful of the total.
Likewise, I tend to think that there are a lot of people out there with antibodies (they've contracted the disease) that we never heard about. But, again, that 50% figure is extremely suspect although I have little doubt it will reach that one day. Three months just seems an incredibly short period of time to infect 150,000,000 people, doubly so with the efforts being made to contain it.
But even if that 50% is correct, it still means that your fatality rate is double what you are using when you calculate based on the entire population.Well, as I mentioned, we have had only one death in our county, and it was of a guy who was already in hospice care. Hospice care is for people who near death--as in, within days or weeks. (I think there is a protocol for hospice care, that there is a near-certain expectation of death within a specified short period of time.) They are receiving only palliative care. There is no hope. So, rather obviously, the real cause of this elderly man's death was whatever landed him in hospice care. The people I've known who have been placed in hospice care were dying of either cancer or stroke.
Apparently the gentleman contracted covid while in hospice care, possibly from a visiting friend or relative, although the odds would suggest that it was from a home health-care worker, since these people are much more likely to have been in contact with someone who was infected. His death from his underlying condition was probably hastened by a few days, due to contracting covid.
To attribute this death to covid is a bit sketchy, to say the least. I would personally consider it fraudulent to attribute his death to covid.Technically it may be correct (he died of Covid), but I'm with you. In practical terms it is fraudulent to attribute his death to the virus.
The 50% "silent attack" is derived the statistics aboard the Diamond Princess, and it refers to the percentage of people who have had covid but were asymptomtic. It does not mean that 50% of the US population is sero-positive for covid. In populations were large numbers of people have been serologically tested, the sero-positive percentages are rather high--but all over the place. If I remember right, they range from 13%-40%.
This rate of sero-positivity in a sample from a particular population suggests that the virus may have been around much longer than is generally believed, and/or reinforces the view that there is a very high "silent attack" (asymptomatic) rate.As far as there being no "verified" reports that deaths are being fraudulently attributed to covid, you have to ask yourself, who would verify it? If one of your friends or relatives died, and you were well aware that they had congestive heart failure, but the death certificate said covid, how would you go about verifying that it was or was not covid?
One of my neighbors recently died of a longstanding congestive heart failure condition. Admittedly, it was aggravated by the fact that, after being released from the hospital in a stabilized condition, he did a bag of meth.
Attribution of the proximate cause of death is often not a simple matter. When a diabetic dies of kidney failure, will the death be attributed to diabetes or to kidney failure? If of sepsis, will it be attributed to diabetes or sepsis?
The CDC recently INSTRUCTED hospitals to list the cause of death as covid, even without a positive test, and if the cause of death was merely ASSUMED to be covid. These direct instructions, coupled with the large financial incentives to diagnose covid, are certainly designed to encourage hospitals to exaggerate these figures.
GA, I know it sounds bizarre, but, if you look at the actual data, it IS bizarre. You might want to pull up health department statistics for your own state and see what you come up with.
GA, I often feel like we are living a new iteration of H.G. Well's broadcast of "The War of the Worlds," and people think I'm lacking in sensibility, or crazy, or whatnot, for being skeptical that space aliens are attacking us.
It also seems strange to me that, given the government's and media's history of lying to the populace, that people are not automatically skeptical.I am generally very skeptical of government and media proclamations, but I do not see this pandemic event as a possible "War of the Worlds" scenario.
I think there are just too many sources and too much evidence—worldwide, that this coronavirus spread is a true pandemic.
But . . . that thought does not mean that I swallow everything claimed about it. For instance; the talk about the death rate gives the impression of an across-the-spectrum danger. But the evidence I have seen generally accepted is that it is two high-risk groups that are truly in danger—senior citizens and folks that are already health-compromised. Which means it may be possible that COVID-19 could be comparable to the flu virus in that for most folks it is a passing thing that our bodies adapt to, but for those other two groups it, (the flu), can also be a deadly thing.
It seems to me ignoring this is a source for the near-hysteria about total lock-down and isolation. But that is just a thought. *shrug
GAWith this I agree. There is zero doubt that there is a pandemic going on. The fatality rate has been grossly exaggerated, however, as has other facets of the problem ("needs" for ventilators, for example, when there were, and are, sufficient already on hand).
I believe if the stay at home orders weren't in place, the death rates would not have been "grossly exaggerated, but we may never know unless reopening the country at this point is a mistake. Time will tell...
Well, my opinion on the death rate is predicated on my opinion that there are far more cases of infection than being reported. Yes, time will tell, at least to some point for we will never be able to test every person in the country for antibodies. And if we could there would still be the question of just when they obtained those antibodies.
The death rates, even "grossly exaggerated," are vanishingly small.
And while it is moderately interesting to hear of events that happened in your head, or you think might of happened in your head, these are of little relevance.So is your solution: "let's just go back to how it was and let the chips fall where they may"?
Without social distancing and improved cleanliness, everyone in America will end up contracting the virus. I suppose at what is most likely a death rate of .6% to .8%, that's not too bad.With any vaccine being a year or more off, I would expect the infection rate in America to be over 50%, perhaps as high as 80% in the coming months or years.
But, among the unvaccinated people, isn't that reasonable for the flu as well? I know that when we had kids at home, and were not vaccinated, we could expect to get sick each winter from the flu. And this one seems even more infections and easy to get.As you've pointed out, we have a vaccine for the flu.
Interestingly, prior to having kids, I never got the flu vaccine and, to my knowledge, have never had the flu.
There are numerous over-the-counter, natural substances that help the immune system. One I swear by is Elderberry.
Watching the news, I'm not sure Americans can even abide by stay-at-home orders or wear masks for more than a month. Look at the California beaches. Just crazy.
In fact, maybe we should just give up because those of us who will or can follow the guidelines are just going to be overrun by those who won't.We had Influenza + Mycoplasma twice last year. First in October, then in Dec. Because I'm asthmatic and immunosuppressed, I was FU for about a month each time. The second time I got Tamiflu and helped a lot. But Mycoplasma is hell.
(I've had mycoplasma before... About a month, every time. A couple times got me hospitalized.)
"The death rates, even "grossly exaggerated," are vanishingly small."
"vanishingly small?" What the heck does this even mean? Or is it simply a Trumpism?Please be careful about "vanishingly small".
Natural mortality is related to average life expectancy. If people get 80 years old in average, then this is a mortality of 1,25% (100%/80).
Currently nationwide Corona death rate (past 7 days) was 20% above said 1,25%. That may be only 0,25%, but i could also say: Average life expectancy has gone down to some 55 years due to Corona. Still to be neglected?I think your math is a bit off. (Nonsensical would be more apt.) I would also like to see a link on your claim that life expectancy had gone down to 55 due to covid.
So...what does "vanishingly small" mean, Vile? Infinitesimal?
bluereron, thought you would answer if i put the 55 in.
First part of my statistics is correct. The US as a whole has a death rate some 18 to 20% above natural death rate. Of course that does not mean that average life expectancy is now 55 years. But numbers are not vanishingly small.
In these Corona times to die from the virus is more probable than to die in a traffic accident. So - do we have rules for traffic? If numbers were neglectably small for traffic, then why put up with traffic lights, speed limits, right of way? What would that be good for? Traffic is even less dangerous than Covid19.
There is always discussion about Corona death cases.
- Do people die FROM Corona?
- Do people die WITH Corona?
- Do people die BECAUSE of Corona?
FROM: clear picture, lung failure, people drown, Covid19 positive
WITH: Immune system alread compromized, multiple organ failure, not necessarily lungs affected, Covid19 positive
BECAUSE: Scheduled surgery could not take place, heart attacks, strokes, people die, because they are afraid to go to hospitals or are simply not admitted. Covid19 negative.
Total surplus death rate in these weeks is a sum of all 3 causes. Not very much is known yet. So it is up to you to make one of the causes "vanishingly small".
If by "grossly exaggerated" you mean the death rate would be higher, I agree. I think the stay-at-home and social distancing did have an effect and buy us some time. But, I do not think those actions are feasible as an end-game strategy. The government can't print enough money to keep people's heads above water until this passes.
We have to reopen the economy. And as your thought says, it will most likely be by trail and error phases.
GAOn this we agree, Gus. I also agree we have to reopen the economy. I hope the stay-at-home program bought us enough time to learn about the virus and how to be safer after the reopening.
Wilderness, I would be curious to know whether you or GA know anyone at all who is sick. I don't.
Now, a dear friend of mine, who would not lie to me, tells me that she knows two elderly men (father and son) who were hospitalized at the same time, and that one of them tested positive for covid and the other negative. Since they both had the same name and the hospital kept mixing them up, no one has any idea which of them tested positive. So I do know someone who knows someone who was sick in our county. And apart from this one friend, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who has been sick.
I do have a handful (five) relatives or in-laws who live elsewhere (other states or nearby counties), who have reported having the flu in the past few months. Only was tested positive; the others were not tested. One other asked to be tested but was refused.No, I don't know anyone that is sick. Not too surprising as I live in Idaho and even the Treasure Valley (biggest concentration of people) only has about a million people and 700 reported cases. 20 deaths. I don't have too many online friends outside the state, but nearly all of those are rural as well - hardly know anyone in a big city.
I think there's a question--perhaps a philosophical question, no less--as to the acceptability of risk, or as a risk/reward assessment.
There is a Biblical quote that illustrates how risk-aversion may be taken to extremes: "The lazy man says, 'There is a lion in the road! A fierce lion is in the streets!' "--Proverbs 26:13. The "lazy man" exaggerates the risk of leaving the house to go about his daily work. It is true that there is risk involved in all our activities. In going to work in the morning, or going to the store for a carton of milk, or to the hardware store for some plumbing fittings to fix a leaky pipe, etc., we run the risk of a traffic accident, a slip on the sidewalk, or of dropping a can of peaches on our foot. (One of my old friends died from dropping a can of peaches on her foot. She was a diabetic, and this caused her to die of sepsis.)
We quite properly (even Proverbially) view people who tend to greatly exaggerate risks to be lacking in character. Carrying risk-aversion beyond a certain point means a refusal to fulfill your responsibilities towards others--one of the chief of which is going to work to be a productive member of society and thus avoid mooching off of others.
We often have responsibilities that can only be undertaken at some risk to ourselves. Some people are soldiers. A bunch of guys stormed Normandy Beach. Some guys were fighter pilots (though usually not for long). Over 50,000 women are severely injured in childbirth each year; about 700 die. The maternal death rate in the US is 0.026%.
I suppose part of my point here is that risk-aversion CANNOT be carried to great extremes, or life quite literally cannot go on.
Exaggerated risk-aversion is no less fatuous when it is claimed to be on behalf of others. E.g., "We all have to stay home to protect Granny."
Never mind the fact that all that is necessary is for Granny herself to stay home.
So the question becomes, "Where do you draw the line on risk aversion?" What level of risk is acceptable, vis-a-vis what level of reward? Will we stop driving cars (considerably more risky than covid)? Will we outlaw sex? That has from time to time been pretty risky. I think the figures on AIDS deaths were 2.5 million at the beginning of the outbreak, which is pretty substantial.I think the main risk is overwhelming the hospitals beyond capacity; as happened in Wuhan and Italy because they were one of the first Countries/Regions to be hit by the pandemic, and were not prepared.
Other countries in the Western World, who had advanced warning of what was coming, are prepared, including the UK & USA; but if restrictions (Social Distancing in the USA, and Lockdown in the UK) are eased too soon and or by too much, then there is a real risk of our hospitals being overwhelmed with covid-19 patients; remembering the incubation period can be up to two weeks, before an infected person shows any signs, and asymptomatic people show no signs, but can still infect others.
And unlike AIDS which required close intimate contact for transmission, covid-19 is far more contagious, and silent e.g. asymptomatic people with coronavirus are contagious, and infectious within 6 feet even by just breathing and talking, plus the virus can survive on hard surfaces such as plastics and metal for up to three days.
Plus, it transpires that it’s not just the elderly and people with medical conditions such as diabetes that are high risk of death from covid-19. Some stats have shown that up to about 20% of deaths from covid-19 seem to be perfectly healthy people of all ages, including the young.
The mortality rate of medical staff (throughout the world), those at the front end of fighting covid-19, is alarmingly high.Nathanville, you are laboring under various fanciful ideas that are in sharp contradiction to reality.
There was a CLAIMED risk of overwhelming the hospitals, and this was based on models that were ludicrously flawed to the point of being outright fraudulent, and have since been many times revised downward, without apology. Remember, Fauci started out by saying that 2.5 million
Americans were likely to die--an estimate that contradicted the available data, even at the time.
I don't pretend to know what motivated these scare tactics, backed up by blatant falsehoods--although I can think of some possible motivations.
The actual facts on the ground is that the hospitals were never overwhelmed. In my area, the hospitals are empty. Hospitals are laying people off. I know this because one of my daughters is a respiratory therapist in an area hospital. What happened was that hospitals, fearing that they would be overwhelmed by covid patients, sent as many patients home as possible and canceled all elective surgeries. But no significant numbers of covid patients ever materialized. My daughter reports that the typical number of covid patients at her mid-size hospital is four to six. Hence, the hospital has found that they need to furlough employees. This is true of hospitals throughout this area. There is a very real danger that a lot of hospitals will be bankrupted by these policies and hence forced to close.
Secondly, if you would like to know the death rate of young and healthy people, I would suggest that you look at the statistics for your area, as reported by your state and county health departments.
I just looked at the covid "deaths by age" for my state (Missouri). The number of deaths of people under 50 is 11. The number of deaths of people over 50 is 303. Of the total, deaths of people over 70 is 213.While it would probably be more interesting for you to look at these data for your own state, here is the link to my state's data: https://health.mo.gov/living/healthcond … 0LUDFY5ZgU
Further, deaths among younger people are almost invariably associated with serious co-morbidities. There has also been a tendency for media to omit mentioning the co-morbidities of patients who have died of covid. I find the assertion that these people were "perfectly healthy" for the most part suspect.
Young people do indeed die with some regularity--of many things. I've lost quite a few old friends who died in their thirties or forties.
Re the high mortality of medical staff, I would again question this statement. I just googled "covid deaths of health care workers in Missouri." There is only one such report, of a nurse, aged 69, who died on April 21st.
You might want to google this for your area.Re: hospitals being overrun
Your comments, though I doubt you meant them that way, sound like the anti-vaxxers: We don't see Polio much so no need to vaccinate!
Hospitals were not overrun anywhere (even NYC)...because of the shutdown. To insinuate that it wasn't needed because it was effective in preventing an overrun doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, it appears that some areas would not have needed a shutdown to prevent overloading the health care system, but some most certainly did. Given that hindsight is 20-20 it would seem that the decision to shut down was prudent, given the facts at the time.Thanks for the clarification wilderness, my grammar was probably a bit off.
Nope. I am not labouring under various fanciful ideal that are in sharp contradiction to reality.
I am speaking from what is going on in the rest of the world outside of the USA Bubble e.g. in the UK (where I live) and across Europe.
The fact is that Italy, who has one of the best healthcare systems in the word, was overwhelmed by the virus, because they were the first country in Europe to be hit by it; the epicentre of Europe; just as New York is the epicentre of the USA.
The reason you’ve escaped lightly (so far) is because the rest of the USA, like the UK and most of Europe took measure to slow the spread of the virus before it got out of control. If the virus was allowed to spread across the USA unchecked then the death toll would be considerably higher than it is now.
Apart from Italy and Spain (the first two countries to face the pandemic in Europe, and thus hit quite hard because they were not prepared, Britain got hit harder than the rest of Europe because our Prime Minister hesitated for 10 days (allowing the virus to spread) before he ordered the ‘lockdown’.
The fact that the fit and young are not immune from death by covid-19, is of evidence from outside of the USA Bubble e.g. many young and fit across Europe have died of it.
The fact that healthcare workers die from covid-19 is of evidence from outside of the USA Bubble e.g. over 100 healthcare workers in the UK alone in the past month. And outside of the USA, the UK is not unique in this respect either.
If you look at what has happened, and is happing in the rest of the world, rather than just in the USA bubble, it might be a forewarning of what could happen in the USA if restrictions are lifted too soon and by too much, allowing the virus to start spreading again before it’s been properly contained.
More than 100 healthcare workers have died in the UK since the coronavirus outbreak began: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- … 9-11979546
Coronavirus: Minute’s silence in the UK held to honour key workers who have died: https://youtu.be/ZwcIR8xP9s0I can attest to this, my wife is a RN, she has returned home early on several occasions now because they have a low census.
This is because of the reasons you stated, as well as the fact that with people staying home, out of bars, out of work, off the roads, there are less accidents and injuries to treat.
If this trend to "stay home" goes beyond May 1st in most places, it will begin to severely damage industries people don't even suspect are being affected. Hospitals and the Medical Industry being one of them...
The Medical Industry is 1/5th the economy.
The Services sector, a broad category of the economy that includes financial services, media, transportation and restaurants accounts for over half (50%) of GDP in the United States.
We have "stay home and stay safe" longer than is productive, the lives saved and the preparations needed no longer outweigh the costs.
Farms, Restaurants, Cruise Lines, Tourist Attractions (Disney + Universal + Lego parks which employ over 100,000 people in Florida alone) need to open back up. They are all at risk of going bankrupt, and once that happens, once millions of jobs are lost, it will be years trying to get them back.Yep, it’s a matter of balancing ‘saving lives against saving the economy’, and nobody seems to know the answers. Hence why most countries around the world are treading with caution, and why the UK currently has a ‘Wait and See’ policy e.g. wait to see what mistakes other countries make in trying to restart their economies, and which strategies work.
As regards hospitals, healthcare in the UK is Government owned and run (The NHS), so there is no danger of hospitals in the UK going bankrupt, because they don’t charge for their services anyway e.g. paid for by the Government.
The hardest hit Industries in the UK include, but not exclusive to:-
• The Leisure Industry e.g. hotels, restaurants, nightclubs etc., of which my son (as a self-employed Professional Photographer) is part of.
• Garden Centres (closed by the Government), and online sales are not practical for obvious reasons.
• Airlines (plus other public transport).
While overall Retail Sales are down 3.7% in the UK, there are winners and losers: All Data According to the ONS (Office of National Statistics).
The Biggest Winners in the UK are Food, DIY, household goods and alcohol, with alcohol being the biggest winner:-
• Alcohol sales in off-licences in the UK (USA word = liquor stores) is up 31.4%
• Overall Food sales in the UK is up 15.3%
Food sold in supermarkets has increased by 10.3%, with the fastest-growing category in the UK being baking goods; up 49.3% (so I guess a lot of people in the UK are spending a lot of their spare time during the lockdown, baking). This is closely followed by frozen food sales, which is up 28%.
Sales in DIY supplies are up significantly as people in the UK try their hands at DIY while in lockdown e.g. DIY stores have been classified as an ‘essential service’ by the Government.
Sales of Household goods in the UK is up 18%
The hardest hit in the Retail Trade in the UK is the sales of clothes, which is down 34%.
And because of travel restrictions, the sale of Petrol (USA word = Gas) in the UK is down 19%
Yes, while many Industries in the UK have been hard hit by the lockdown, many of which in those industries will not survive e.g. thousands of pubs and nightclubs will go bankrupt; other industries are thriving, particular the food sector and DIY stores etc.
In fact in the UK, because of in-store shopping in supermarkets are heavily restricted due to ‘Social Distancing’ Regulations e.g. shoppers only being allowed into the shops one at a time, an instructed to keep 2 metres apart from each other; demand for home deliveries far outstrips the resources (Labour and Drivers) to meet that demand. Hence, all the main supermarkets (rivals) are now working in partnership to better meet that demand e.g. sharing with each other drivers, vans, staff and food (to pool their resources) to meet that demand.
For example, last week we had food delivered, which we bought from one supermarket (Morrisons), but was supplied by a competitor supermarket (Tescos), and arrived in a ‘burger van’ that belonged to neither e.g. they hired a private driver. Such are the times.
Of course, the other factor that makes things different in the UK than the USA is that the British Government are paying employees who can’t currently work 80% of what they would normally earn, specifically so that employers are not forced to make them redundant. The Government is even intending to pay the self-employed 80% of the average of their net earnings over the past three years; to try to keep the self-employed afloat during the lockdown.
Consequently unemployment has risen by only 1.4 million in the UK (predicted to rise to 2 million by June), compared to the 26.4 million rise in unemployment in the USA.There's definitely a political element in what's happening here. Basically, the red states seem to be moving faster to open things up than the blue states.
That said, while the red states are opening up and being charged with moving too fast, their attempt to move forward seem to be relatively conservative. It's not like they're telling everyone to go party.
I think no matter what they do or what they say, the problem is going to be with the people themselves not following the guidelines. You'll have people who wear masks and respect social distancing and those who don't.
I think the real test will be in Georgia because their death toll is still rising. If the confluence of spread and death toll and people not listening comes together wrong, they'll be in real trouble. If we get some measure of relief through medicine and weather (doubtful) then maybe it's not so bad.
I think if everyone wears a mask and we maintain social distancing and we all wash our hands regularly, the resulting decline in infections should be significant enough that it's worth it to return to a "normal" economy. Basically, somebody has to do some kind of experiment and figure out if such an approach works.
This whole thing is also exacerbating the differences between rural and urban citizens because urban folks are so much more susceptible to the virus due to their closeness. One should expect a lot more Americans moving away from the cities."I think the real test will be in Georgia because their death toll is still rising."
I really wish we would be seeing/hearing not what the death toll is, but what todays number of new cases is, compared to the last few days. Death tolls tells us how many people got sick weeks ago and finally succumbed; the infection numbers tell us what the virus is doing right now. Not the total number in a state or city, but what today's numbers are compared to yesterday's. And that's far more important when it comes to re-opening the country.You're right. I'm using "death toll" just as kind of a catch-all. But I think Georgia's cases are going up, not down, at the moment.
Once states get to a place where cases have diminished, additional measures should continue to slow the spread even with people moving about.
I am 'shooting from the hip' here Crankilicious, not taking issue with your comment.
I have a couple of thoughts. First is that we must get our economy started again. The idle/unemployed cannot support themselves, (ie. putting food on the table), and the government cannot support them, (ie. $1200 checks), indefinitely.
Second, there is no magic wand date or statistic that will be the bar to meet to get back to 'normal'. Even if a herculean effort gets us a vaccine in 18 months, that is still at least 12 months beyond feasible sustainability.
My opinion is that we must reopen the economy . . . and deal with the consequences. As you mentioned, I think the rural and less densely—populated areas will fare best, (I don't have any problem with crowded beaches or busy national parks), so I am all for them opening up. I think densely populated cities will have to adopt different strategies.
From all that I hear, I think our only path is to view this like the flu; ie. the "herd immunity" solution.Our medical systems are already ramped-up for the expected curve peaks, so hopefully, they won't be overwhelmed by the consequences of opening up our society again.
GAThere's no evidence there's any herd immunity, but I do agree that there's some point where things have to be opened up.
My basic point is this - if you open everything up, but people wear masks, practice social distancing, and wash hands - assuming that the vast majority of people do those things, it seems inconceivable that the spread of the virus wouldn't slow considerably.
If people resist doing those things, which I think many will, then I suspect there will be serious problems.
What we certainly don't want is to end up back at square one.I was listening to a pandemic expert this morning and they did say they thought there would be herd immunity when 60-70% of the population has Coronavirus. We're currently at 5%.
I was commenting on something I heard that suggested getting Coronavirus once does not mean you're immune to getting it again, which would mean herd immunity might be ineffective.I really have to doubt that 5% figure. I think when we begin testing for antibodies we're going to find that far more than that has had it.
I read an article on Retuers the other day about testing in prisons in the US. They found over 90% positive, almost none had symptoms.
Here is a link to a slaughterhouse in Missouri. 370 people were positive, all asymptomatic. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/t … -missouri/
GA commented earlier about achieving that herd immunity as we've done with the flu.
But I don't see it with the flu; if we have that herd immunity, why are we taking millions upon millions of doses of a vaccine to prevent getting the flu? (Or measles, mumps, pertussis, etc.)
The answer, of course, is that the flu mutates every year. I haven't seen an real suggestions that Covid won't do the same, although there are lots of comments about hoping it doesn't. I think that herd immunity is, for now, nothing but a dream...a dream that we would be exceedingly foolish to depend on.I agree. We can hope herd immunity will do something. If this behaves similarly to the flu and mutates when presented with a vaccine, we may be looking at a flu season with two different viruses that requires a lot of management.
I do wonder though, with people like those in Oklahoma threatening businesses who require wearing a mask because it's a violation of their civil rights, how we can ever beat this thing. As an analogy, it is your civil right to carry a gun. It is not your civil right to shoot others with it. Not a perfect analogy, but reasonably close to the argument about not wearing a mask.I don't quite follow the logic of demanding that you dress as you wish when entering a property owned by someone else. There are dress codes all over the nation, from "coat and tie" to "shirt and shoes" - I'm not understanding the civil rights thing when a mask is required but it's OK for coat and tie.
Perhaps it's OK to wear a bikini, or maybe a night time teddy, when in court in front of a judge. A little skeptical that a judge would view that as a "civil right", though...
LOL
Hi, PP! Yes! Never knew why, but really didn't care. Some snowflake, I suppose.Aww stop!
Thank you!
I missed you guys too (yes, even wilderness! ) But an earthquake kept me busy. Ha! Put on your roller skates and you can "shake, rattle, and roll."
I had to google that!
But hey, there're more people missing too. Where's promisem? Don W? Etc.You never know who Matt will target next, IB. It's a "fruit basket turnover." You may have to google that as well.
Sorry that it was you.
Randy was just banned for a month. SMHThat ain't right. These moderators are becoming censors, what do they expect from a Politics and Social Issues forum—choir rooms? Hp should suffer for it, but maybe they have enough 'new blood' to support their business model without us old-timers.
Oh well, it won't be the first time I have had to move on. If I do I will take my articles with me.
GAApparently they banned several people for the same thread. Don't know who else.
By the way, my ban was an error, they said. They found out after my 3-day ban concluded and my forum privileges were reinstated.
I said idiots. LOLI've begun moving my hubs to another site. Been unfairly banned one too many times to keep feeding this beast.
I hear you. I don't add to the beast's diet. I haven't written here in quite a while. Just enough to make payout.
GA
Yes, THIS Time, you have a reasonable perspective and I agree with you.
Well for the most part, I see the mask issue of one of public health and safety just in the way people are required to wear shoes and a shirt.
Your public accomodation can discriminate on that basis as long it does not involve immutable characteristics.But it can't "discriminate" based on what it (the business in question) wants? What about coat and tie functions? A Halloween costume party? Is it "discrimination" to produce the ambiance the business is selling? Who is being "discriminated" against except those that do not wish to participate in what the business is selling?
A security guard is shot and killed after telling customer to put on a face mask
Calvin Munerlyn, 43, died at a local hospital after he was shot in the head Friday, said Michigan State Police Lt. David Kaiser.
The shooter and a second suspect remain at large, Kaiser told CNN on Monday.
Witnesses at the store told police that Munerlyn got into a verbal altercation with a woman because she was not wearing a mask, said Genesee County prosecutor David Leyton. Surveillance video confirms the incident, Leyton said.
Footage also shows that immediately after the altercation, the woman left in an SUV.
But about 20 minutes later, the SUV returned.
Two men entered the store and one of them yelled at Munerlyn about disrespecting his wife, Leyton said. The other man then shot the security guard.
Over a mask. SMHI am alarmed at the paranoid and angry tone of some right-wingers on social media. They seem to equate being required to wear a mask with tyranny, which is irrational since the government is merely recommending masks while it is some private businesses that are requiring them.
Fascinating that you know the shooter was a "right winger" even though no one knows who it is. Does doing/thinking/believing something you don't agree with automatically carry that label in your mind?
But other countries are requiring masks; perhaps our people (right, left, black, white, male, female, whatever) don't like requirements they see as foolish and fear <the left-wingers in> our government will remove more rights/freedoms from us, using COVID as a convenient excuse to exert more control?Fascinating that you say I know the shooter was aright-winger when I said nothing at all about the shooter. I was speaking of what I have seen about people in general who don't want to wear a mask.
My bad - when you replied to a thread about someone shooting someone else over wearing a mask, and indicate fear over "right wingers" equating wearing a mask to tyranny, I though it reasonable to assume you were speaking of the shooter.
Apologies. I didn't realize you were changing the topic of conversation.
Crowded beaches and busy parks are the very places that would accelerate the spread of the virus; and with only 15% of the population at most having anti-bodies (probably a lot lower) and with the death toll already over 60,000 in the USA and still rising, to get to herd immunity would mean the death toll potentially fivefold, if not higher e.g. increasing to at least 300,000 or more.
Also, as regards a vaccine, I notice that all news media in the USA is deliberately ignoring progress being made outside of the USA bubble e.g. in other parts of the world (including the UK) trials for a vaccine have already started, and the usual red tape is being cut to expedite the trials, and mass production, if the early trials prove positive. So outside of the USA bubble there may well be vaccines available sooner rather than later e.g. late 2020, early 2021?
Europe is taking a far more cautious approach than the USA; but which route pays off in the end remains to be seen e.g. we should have a better idea within the next month or two on whether the USA reckless approach or the European cautious approach achieves a better economic outcome with fewer lives lost?
UK Government Daily Brief to the British Public (30th April 2020): https://youtu.be/Sea5XRMnihg
Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said a second wave of infections is “inevitable” in the United States, which has recorded more than 1 million confirmed cases — nearly one-third of the global total. Fauci also warned that “we could be in for a bad fall and a bad winter” if the right countermeasures aren’t put in place.
I couldn't help but post this: https://www.kron4.com/health/coronaviru … istancing/ Coming to a grocery story near you. Pro? Con? Thoughts?
Our WalMart aisles aren't one way, but there is signage as you enter, insisting you stay on the "entrance" side of the wide entrance aisle.
That website has restricted access e.g. prohibited from view in Europe, so any chance in letting us Europeans have a summery of the main points?
It is a story about Walmart adopting one-way aisles with floor signage showing which way to shop.
The theory is that it will help maintain social distancing because there won't be any passing "traffic," and assuming that all will patiently keep their distance behind the shopper in front of them until it is their turn to get to a part of the aisle.
Here is an accompanying image:
GAThanks GA, it's good to see some good measures on 'Social Distancing' being introduced in the USA.
Our Walmart has rearranged the entrance by putting a kind of rail up so that you have to walk around it to get to the door. I am not sure of the purpose of this; it seems to just funnel people together. No one-way aisles.
For awhile they had yellow tape around the entrance and a masked lady "hall monitor," possibly on the theory that a theatrical presentation was required to get people to believe there was a flu going around. They quickly abandoned that idea, perhaps fearing that they were boring people.
People here make a half-hearted effort to maintain some distance at both Walmart and Sprouts. There are some masks at Walmart, worn by half or fewer of the customers, but many more at Sprouts, which is in more of a suburban area. (Our Walmart is in a decidedly rural area.) But the effort to maintain social distance is much more half-hearted at Sprouts, as it is a rather compact store.
I think most people in rural areas try to maintain social distance out of courtesy, in case some of their fellow shoppers are nutters--or perhaps even vulnerable. People are almost aggressively courteous around here.
I see very few masks at our small-town grocery store, other than those worn by the cashiers. I think most people around here are rather dubious about the idea that there is something going around, as there doesn't appear to be anything going around. Nobody is sick. The state health department statistics record 50 cases and one death in a county of about 34,000 people. The one death was a guy in hospice care.
Kansas City, Missouri, records 16 deaths out of a population of about half a million. The state health department website shows they have had 706 cases.
The only people who even believe there is a flu going around are people who watch WAY too much TV--and that one guy on Facebook who attends our town's ultra-liberal church, where they are doubtless praying for the non-existent victims of the scourge every Sunday morning.
I went to that particular church for awhile, back when they were pounding the pulpit in favor of the Iraq War, and praying for our troops as if Jesus had mustered them out for the Last Judgement, in between pounding the pulpit to pass another bond issue. I haven't been back for a number of years, but I'm pretty sure they have poor Goeff shaking in his shoes.I think it's safe to assume that if you don't see it, it doesn't exist. Like God.
What do American’s think of yesterday’s News?
“3,000 USA deaths per day projected by June”
https://youtu.be/XSq8Nx7NBH4GOP Ohio state lawmaker refuses to wear face mask because faces are the 'likeness of God'
“This is not the entire world,” state Rep. Nino Vitale wrote in a lengthy Facebook post on Monday morning. “This is the greatest nation on earth founded on Judeo-Christian Principles.”
“One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask,” he continued.
Ugh! SMHThen he doesn't need to be in the same room. Let him stay home.
I'm just saying, if it's some conspiracy, ignore it and go about your life. Don't worry, be happy. I'm sure all this virus stuff is just more fake news. You don't see it in your community, so I doubt it's happening.
Trump Administration burying CDC guidelines that contradict their plan to reopen the economy.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-exclusive … 39591.htmlOnce again, wishful thinking trumps science. Or, in other words "let's do it my way because I have a natural ability to know what's right".
That's not Trump's issue, that an issue for many. The scientists are lying. There in on some big conspiracy. And we know this because Bobby on Youtube says so.I would have two questions here:
1) What is being changed or left out, and
2) did the CDC do a rigid analysis of the effect, both long and short term, on the economy of the shutdown? Did they analyze the results of the shutdown on businesses, both large and small, both long and short term? Did they study the long term inflationary effects of the massive borrowing and giveaways that an extended shutdown will require? What about the credit rating of the country? Did they go into just where the continued "stimulus" money would come from?
These are all far outside the expertise of a govt. agency tasked with disease control, but they are vital questions when it comes to they type of response we're using on COVID - if we could simply shutdown the country indefinitely without harm, why didn't we do so years ago and give people the luxury of unlimited leisure time they want?
I have repeatedly commented that our response MUST be a balanced one between harming the people through poverty and a ruined economy vs harming them through disease. Both WILL happen; where is the balancing point we should be aiming at?While I think Trump is doing an incompetent job, this is almost a no-win situation. Open the economy too early and face another outbreak that causes us to have to shut down again. Or wait too long and make it that much more challenging to get the economy going again - more people out of work, more economic disaster. More debt. It's certainly not an easy call.
Seems to me many states are approaching it the right way which is to test the waters slowly and see how it goes. It's just going to be extra hard if people don't follow the rules.
Republican, Democrat, we all want to return to something resembling our lives the way they were. We can't blame our politicians for making reasonable efforts at that.
It's just a shame we weren't more prepared. That said, look at the average American. Few of us are prepared for catastrophe. Few of us can make it more than a month. Few of us have adequate savings. Few of us have adequate retirement savings. Few of us are willing to make any kind of sacrifice to help our fellow human beings, like wear a mask in public.
Government is really a pretty accurate reflection of how we behave in our own personal lives - carefree and unprepared.
There are several problems with your premise that the "scientists" are reliable. One of these is the abominable track record of Fauci's modeling. He originally predicted around 2.5 million covid deaths in the US, and has been walking back his subsequent models ever since. Fauci's handling of the AIDS epidemic at the time of the initial outbreak cost millions of lives.
Neil Ferguson's Imperial College models were also farcical. It is said that his computer codes are..."substandard" by a wide margin. Plus, like Fauci, his track record is very poor. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/p … -disgrace/
You could get the impression that competency is not a desired quality among "scientists" employed by the government. You could also get the impression that the sole qualification for ascending to such positions is an incandescent enthusiasm for being a tool.
Further, we have excellent historically successful models for dealing with infectious diseases. Tuberculosis, which killed one in seven people in the late 1800s, is one of them. Infected people were quarantined. Even in the 1950s, when I was in school, every school child was tested for tuberculosis. Such testing is still done in some US communities on a more limited basis.
Quarantines are a proven method. Extensive testing for covid, if the intent were to quarantine the infected, seems a little over-the-top, since, as with other flu viruses, almost everyone will get it.
Why were proven methods not put in place at an early date? Why do we have no competent people at the helm? There are plenty of them around--people with sound medical knowledge and clinical experience and degrees out the wazoo.
With regard to whether Fauci and Ferguson are part of a "big conspiracy," the question is whether they are engaged in a conspiracy or, alternatively, whether they are really that stupid.
The latter is, of course, possible. After all, they are government employees, so they were selected for stupidity and corruptibility. Stupidity is eminently serviceable in the advancement of corruption.So you have been following this pandemic and your conclusion is that Dr. Fauci is the problem?
If Fauci is stupid, then you believe he misinterpreted the data he had. Do you have evidence that he did that?
If he is part of a conspiracy, then he must have knowingly given a false conclusion from the data he had. Do you have evidence of that?
Have you reviewed the data he used and come up with a different conclusion because I do know that he revised his projections based on new data, which is what I think a scientist is supposed to do.Did Fauci change his prediction of 2M deaths if no actions were taken? I had not seen that.
Nor have I seen any real changes to the projection of 100,000 to 200,000 fatalities with effective social distancing etc. I DID see some saying it might be high and that they hoped it would be, but no real changes in the prediction. Did that one change as well?I think you're asking the right questions. Models are only as good as the data upon which they are based. It is up to the scientist to change predictions based on changing data and to use unbiased data. Ultimately though, predictions are just that, predictions.
Dr. Robert R. Redfield
@CDCDirector
CDC tracks 12 different forecasting models of possible #COVID19 deaths in the US. As of May 11, all forecast an increase in deaths in the coming weeks and a cumulative total exceeding 100,000 by June 1.
His tweet https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/ … 1039993856
See CDC national & state forecasts https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc … ng-us.html
This aptly describes the disconnect between the two political parties currently:
Regarding the Coronavirus: The Trump administration was the No. 1 source of misinformation for 85% of Democrats but only 4% of Republicans, according to the poll. On the flip side, 75% of Republicans said the mainstream national media was the No. 1 source of misinformation, compared with only 2% of Democrats.This was an informative timeline of how our government handled (botched) the Covid-19 response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD9XWTbbSGA
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