Racist and Sexist Attitudes Responsible for Trump's Support

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  1. crankalicious profile image93
    crankaliciousposted 9 months ago

    Many argue that Trump was elected due to economic anxiety among the white, working class. However, studies show that the reason for his election and continued support was/is shared racist and sexist attitudes:

    https://theintercept.com/2018/09/18/201 … ass-trump/

    Sad.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Trump was elected primarily because the people of this country have become disgusted and fed up with the shenanigans of our legislature, with the large majority of members voting for what they perceive as good for themselves rather than the country.

      Not because all racists voted for him, not because all sexists voted for him.  But because Capital Hill has become a cesspool of lies, distortions and self serving "servants".

      1. crankalicious profile image93
        crankaliciousposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        That's your opinion, which I agree with to some degree.

        However, it's informative to read the article and see what several scientific studies say.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          I read it, or at least most of it.  What I don't like about these kinds of things is "We found sexism to be a major factor.", which is what they said.  No list of questions, no indication of how respondents were chose, nothing but a statement that "We found...".

          You and I both know that such conclusions are always possible, depending on how the research is conducted.  I've learned to take all of these with a grain (a BIG grain) of salt, particularly when it is a third party reporting it as factual - nearly always without checking any of the work.

          Maybe I'm just too jaded, but I have a real problem accepting work that isn't laid out for the reader or that has no peer review.  And in politics, peer review from both sides of the fence.

          1. blueheron profile image94
            blueheronposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            I further see no definition of racism or sexism in the article. Do they perhaps mean equal opportunity for all? Or do they mean preferential treatment for minorities in the way of job opportunities and college admissions? These latter are blatantly racist, discriminating against some races in preference to others.

            By "sexist," do they mean opposition to abortion? Three-quarters of women who get abortions are pressured or force to obtain them, mostly by men. So perhaps abortion is not exactly a bulwark of women's freedom.

      2. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Yup. Another fake "study." (Rather like all the fake polls, of which we have all had a belly full.) But by all means, carry on--attempting to attribute Hillary's loss to something other than her almost unbelievable level of corruption and criminality. Plus she barely bothered to campaign, focusing instead on fund-raisers for billionaire supporters. Plus her lack of any positive platform.

        1. crankalicious profile image93
          crankaliciousposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          I often find that the inability to comprehend science goes hand-in-hand with one's rejection of science and the scientific method. In other words, the less intelligent a person is, the more likely they are to reject the conclusions of those eggheads in academia. Unfortunately, the internet has effectively democratized intelligence, allowing people to use their collective ignorance to draw conclusions.

          Here are some of the conclusions from one of the studies:

          The report also provides an in-depth profile of white working-class Americans, along with analysis of this group’s world view, outlook, and attitudes about cultural change and policy:

          Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white working-class Americans believe American culture and way of life has deteriorated since the 1950s.

          Nearly half (48%) of white working-class Americans say, “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country.”
          Nearly seven in ten (68%) white working-class Americans believe the American way of life needs to be protected from foreign influence. In contrast, fewer than half (44%) of white college-educated Americans express this view.

          Nearly seven in ten (68%) white working-class Americans—along with a majority (55%) of the public overall—believe the U.S. is in danger of losing its culture and identity.

          More than six in ten (62%) white working-class Americans believe the growing number of newcomers from other countries threatens American culture, while three in ten (30%) say these newcomers strengthen society.

          Nearly six in ten (59%) white working-class Americans believe immigrants living in the country illegally should be allowed to become citizens provided they meet certain requirements, while 10% say they should be allowed to become permanent legal residents.

          More than one in four (27%) say we should identify and deport illegal immigrants. Notably, support for a path to citizenship is only slightly lower than support among the general public (63%).

          More than half (52%) of white working-class Americans believe discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks and other minorities, while 70% of white college-educated Americans disagree.

          Fewer than four in ten white working-class Americans report they are in excellent (5%) or good shape (33%) financially, compared to six in ten who say they are in fair (35%) or poor shape (25%). White working-class Americans about as likely to say their financial situation has diminished (27%) as they are to say it has improved (29%). White college-educated Americans, in contrast, are about three times as likely to say their financial circumstances have gotten better than gotten worse (41% vs. 14%, respectively).

          A majority (54%) of the white working class view getting a college education as a risky gamble, while only 44% say it is a smart investment.

          Six in ten (60%) white working-class Americans, compared to only 32% of white college-educated Americans say because things have gotten so far off track, we need a strong leader who is willing to break the rules.

          1. profile image0
            PrettyPantherposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Social science is quite sophisticated these days but it can be susceptible to bias. That said, those who reject results they don't  like rarely express a direct, legitimate, factual challenge to the data, methodology, or conclusions/results. They are merely "uncomfortable" or "don't trust" the results. Either you accept science with a reasonable amount of fact-based skepticism or you remain unenlightened by what is revealed by these studies.

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              It has been interesting, and a little sad, to see what the word "science" has come to mean.  It used to be information gathered via the "scientific method", but that has gone by the wayside as the power of "It's Science!" has increased.  Nearly any statement/conclusion that has come abut via a "study" is now considered "science" but it most definitely is not.

              Specifically, two of the most important parts of the scientific method are seldom required. Question and experimentation.  Most of what we see fails in the "question" area as a pre-ordained answer is required rather than an actual question, and there is very often no experimentation done.  Just observation, and observation that sets aside any data that might interfere with the answer desired at that.

              https://www.thoughtco.com/scientific-method-p2-373335

          2. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            "Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white working-class Americans believe American culture and way of life has deteriorated since the 1950s."

            Given that "culture" and "way of life" is extremely subjective, this one is still comical.  No one that lived in the 50's could possibly say (honestly) that the standard of living has not increased enormously since then.

            1. blueheron profile image94
              blueheronposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              In some respects yes, and in some no, if you are referring to our standard of living. But note that the statement referred to "American culture," and not the "American standard of living."

              Cultural changes can be hard to quantify, because much depends on who you are, where you are, and whom you associate with. But the breakdown of the family and community, increasing levels of crime and drug use, and the decline in reading and math proficiency are obvious symptoms of cultural decline. People are far less honest and truthful than they were in 1955, especially in business dealings, and people are generally far less competent in their work. (You used to have the same job for your whole life, so you got good at it.) Most people seem to lack life skills. In former times, women could cook, sew, grow a garden, and can the produce. The men could build a house, plumb and wire it in, and, as my son once remarked about my father, "dig a foundation with a teaspoon and shit out a shed."

              I think that our "higher standard of living" is in some ways arguable. We have more electronic toys today, and some of them are immensely valuable. Knowledge is far more accessible. Everyone has a car--as in, every family member. Consumer goods (if you have money) are at your fingertips, though they are generally not as high in quality as in 1955, when your home appliances would last a lifetime. Houses are far bigger--actually too big. And, sadly, much of our modern affluence is pretend--fueled by excessive debt.

              It's still possible to have the best of both worlds. You can still choose to live modestly, cultivate family life, live your positive values and teach them to your children, strive to be an educated and cultured person, and surround yourself with educated and cultured people.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                But those things you mention as cultural (and they pretty much are) are nearly 100% subjective.  You may value the American family (one husband, one wife, 2 children) but others do not, as an example.  That culture changes is not debatable; whether that change is "good" or not is totally dependent on the subjective desires of the person speaking.  Similarly, your notion (and mine) that houses are "too big" is entirely subjective.

                While I agree that people appear to be less skilled today, there is a reason for that.  While my g'grandfather built his own home with little more than an axe, shovel and hammer, that is simply not possible today.  I was an electrician, and it took 4 years of schooling to get to the point that I could wire a home without immediate supervision.  It is similar for plumbers and for HVAC workers.  The level of knowledge required, both legally and otherwise, is simply beyond anyone not specializing in those fields.  Cars - while I used to be a great "backyard" mechanic, most repairs on cars are far beyond me today.  I simply don't have the specialized knowledge, or tools, required to do any but the most simple repairs.

                1. crankalicious profile image93
                  crankaliciousposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  I think you both make some interesting points, obviously based on different, individual experiences.

                  I don't view cultural change as negative or positive. Things just change and some things will not be to everyone's liking. The nostalgic view of the past, particular the 50's and before, has a lot to do with how that history was written. Largely, non-white history was ignored until recently while the suburban expansion following World War II was emphasized. Most got to experience that post-war expansion, but not everyone. Depending on who you were, that time in history could be wildly different. It's just that the wildly different parts didn't really come to light until relatively recently.

                  That said, there really is something to be said for the ease with which we have access to everything and the disposable nature of goods. The ability to spend money and have things is undoubtedly attractive, but is it really good for people? I don't know the answer. I tend to think not. And the point about things not lasting is a good one. Things are much more disposable than they used to be. I tend to think this is not a good thing either. It's not good for people's mental health and it's not good for the environment and it's not good for people's financial health.

                  And I completely agree with the notion that the basic idea of spending and living beyond one's means is almost a cultural imperative today. Running up credit card debt, having the latest and greatest thing; etc. One has to wonder whether the government's emphasis on debt spending has translated into individuals practicing debt spending.

                2. blueheron profile image94
                  blueheronposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  I really have to take issue with your comment that skills like plumbing, electrical, and car repairs are too difficult for people today. I re-plumbed my entire (small) house about 15 years ago and plumbed in and installed a new shower. I often refer to plumbing as a ladies' craft project. "Righty-tighty, lefty loosey, water runs downhill and payday's Friday."

                  I admit it was all CPVC--in other words, Tinker Toys. My daughter re-plumbed her entire (small) house about five years ago, but she, having better sense, used PEX.

                  My daughter helped me wire in several new electrical circuits in a newly finished attic when she was about 15. Black to brass, white to silver, green to ground. I will admit to having trouble with switches. I always wire them in wrong the first time and throw the breaker. 

                  About 20 years ago, I wired in a new breaker box. My daughter's husband wired in a new sub-panel about five years ago, plus re-wiring their entire house. My daughter and her husband are now rehabbing a 100-year-old house, down to the studs. Completely new wiring and plumbing, leveling up sagging floors, removing asbestos, rearranging partitions, replacing windows and doors, etc. They did hire out the installation of a new septic system and the replacement of the roof. I have framed in and replaced windows and hung doors. My daughter used to help me with that.

                  My daughter is also an expert car mechanic.

                  You do have to acquire quite a few tools to do these things, but I don't see how anyone can be without a pretty good selection of tools.

                  Anyone who is motivated can learn this stuff, and do the job to code. My educational background: English teacher. My daughter's educational background: biologist. Her husband is an electrical engineer, but they don't teach you household wiring in that field.

        2. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          "But by all means, carry on--attempting to attribute Hillary's loss to something other than her almost unbelievable level of corruption and criminality."

          You seem to have misunderstood my post, for that is exactly what I said.

        3. crankalicious profile image93
          crankaliciousposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          "...attempting to attribute Hillary's loss to something other than her almost unbelievable level of corruption and criminality."

          Where do you get this stuff? Can you back that up with any factual evidence at all? Does this have anything to do with the child sex trafficking ring she ran under the pizza restaurant? Do we need to go check the basement again?

          It's pretty obvious that the Trump supporter's defense is to accuse everyone under the sun with the crimes Trump himself has committed well beyond those he accuses.

          He accuses Biden of mental fatigue when Trump himself demonstrates every day that is mental faculties are well below average.

          He accuses Gov. Whitmer of crimes and tolerates chants of "lock her up" when chants of "lock him up" would be more apropos given his laundry list of criminal behavior.

          His supporters fall back on the "creepy Joe" accusations when Trump has been accused of harassment by 27 different women. Seems like he's going to have some lawsuits to deal with post-Presidency.

          And so on.

          1. blueheron profile image94
            blueheronposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Well, for starters, Hillary committed many acts which are against black-letter law--and which would put--and have put--any ordinary citizen in the stony lonesome for a great many years. This is not true of Trump.

            Trump "has been accused of" is rather lame. These are allegations. People make false allegations all the time, for a variety of reasons.

            Who among us has not been falsely accused of something? I certainly have. When my daughters were in high school one was falsely accused to stealing tips from another car-hop--who was stealing tips and wanted to shift the blame. The other daughter was falsely accused of "stalking" some boy, a rumor he spread to make himself appear studly. In my case, to cite a fairly minor incident, the neighborhood alcoholic spread a rumor that I had been drinking up all the liquor at the barbeque. This was because he himself was drinking up all the liquor and wanted people to think it was me. I could mention other more serious examples, but my point is that false accusations are so commonplace that no one with normal intelligence and a reasonable amount of discernment takes them seriously without serious proof. Which, in Trump's case, has not been forthcoming.

            There is, on the other hand, no doubt that Hillary committed crimes that are against black-letter law. Comey listed them in some detail before recommending that she not be prosecuted. Yet the fact is, she did indeed commit these crimes.

    2. GA Anderson profile image91
      GA Andersonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I did read your link Crankalicious, and I am struggling to digest its conclusions.

      I have several questions to internally evaluate. Are the studies' determinations of racist and sexual attitudes simply euphemisms for normal human/tribal considerations? Are the fears of loss of status and/or social viability a negative or a positive? Is it normal for a society of humans to be adverse to changes in their culture that have worked to elevate their society? Are the "racist" and "sexist" attitude descriptions falsely portraying normal human perception? etc. etc.

      A fair summation might be to ask the question of whether the studies' conclusions are orientation based. As in, a progressive liberal perspective advocating change, or an unbiased perspective evaluating real-time social norms?

      I need to give this some thought, but at this point, my gut says the studies quoted have drawn results that fit a preconceived notion.

      Simply put, just because folks aren't into all the LGBTQ? stuff doesn't mean they are sexists, and just because they have concerns about black/white societal issues doesn't mean they are racist.

      The one point I can agree that the studies validate is that the "economic anxiety" determination seems to be a false claim.

      Right now, I am inclined to be skeptical of your link's importance—in the scheme of things, but I will offer the benefit of consideration of those other mentioned points and get back to you after further thought.

      GA

    3. Sharlee01 profile image85
      Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Interesting article... In my view, there were several reasons Trump got elected, and much depended on status. Many became very attracted to his attitude on getting out of trade deals, and globalization. Simply feeling the deals changed our jobs out of the country. Many disliked the idea of the cancel culture, and the socially correct crowd.  It also became an attractive thought of someone transparent moving into the White House and draining the swampy moat that stagnated for years around that pristine house. What fun it would be to have a President that just spoke his mind no matter what. No more wonderful uplifting speeches, that in the end were becoming very stale, repetitive, one could almost lipsync. Maybe, some were just well over not facing that the country faced many problems, and no one solving them. Maybe just opting for someone different, someone that was not in any respect a politician. Did culture attitudes such as racist and sexist attitudes come into the equation, it well may have for some. However, In my view, these attributes are not innate in the majority of Trump supporters or for that matter in a Majority of American citizens.  I will admit I think this sort of person could be very attracted to Trump, due to some of his policies. But, I don't think Trump forms his policies with discrimination entering into his
      problem-solving solutions.

    4. Live to Learn profile image79
      Live to Learnposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Believe what you will.  I support him and I'm neither racist,  or sexist,  by the traditional understanding of the words.  If we use the left's penchant for moving the goal posts on what is considered sexist or racist,  depending on the political leaning of the individual,  I can't say what I am.

    5. peterstreep profile image81
      peterstreepposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Trump was elected because America is not a democracy. Hillary Clinton got the most votes, So she should have been the president. The majority voted for Clinton and against Trump. Simple to me.

      I got an 502 error when trying to open the link..

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        In reference to Trump's election, as well as the general case, why do you feel America is not a democracy?  Everything I read says it is, although not a "true" democracy because every individual does not vote on every matter, instead using representatives to do so.

        1. peterstreep profile image81
          peterstreepposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          I don't consider the US, nor the UK or Spain a democracy because not every vote has the same value.
          In a democracy you vote for a party or president and the percentage of votes gives the answer. So if 51% of the votes goes to A, and 49% goes to B, A wins.
          All the other systems are fake democracies. A democracy respects the majority vote of the people.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Even if everyone doesn't get to vote?  Is it still a "democracy" then? 

            Using what you said - that everyone votes on everything and all votes carry the same value - there is not, nor has there ever been, a "democracy" of any size at all.  Perhaps a few communes of a hundred people, but nothing more.

            1. peterstreep profile image81
              peterstreepposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              I don''t know all the voting systems in the world. But the one I'm used to, the Dutch one is pretty close to a 100% democratic system.
              You vote. And in the end of the day the percentage of country wide votes equals the percentage of seats the party gets in parliament.
              (20% of the votes - 20% of the seats in parliament.)
              The president is the number one on the list of the biggest party. The vice president is the number one of the party by which the winning party makes a coalition.
              Another reason why I don't think the US is a democratic country is because it is basically a two party system. You vote red or blue, a bit independent but that's often a lost vote. To choose between two different things I find hardly a choice. But I guess it is what you are used to.
              In the Netherlands there are about 20 parties, enough to choose from.
              From animal rights party to extreme right wing party to Muslim party to Christian party to party for 65+...enough flavours..
              But I can imagine that seems crazy to others.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Then you aren't casting a vote for every item on the agenda - you only vote to pick the person that will represent you (you hope!) and cast the actual vote for whatever law or item is up for voting.

                Sounds exactly like our electoral college to me - we vote for someone that will (hopefully) cast their vote for the person we wish as president.  Or for a different representative that (we hope) will cast their vote for laws or other items that represent our wishes.

                The only real difference is that we take steps to prevent the majority, no matter how slim, from running roughshod over the minority and you don't - you provide no protection at all for a minority, no matter how large it might be.

                1. peterstreep profile image81
                  peterstreepposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  True, casting a vote for every item is what they do in Switzerland, I believe.
                  I'm not an advocate for a referendum to be honest.
                  No it's not an electoral collage, as you count is pure without an in between person. You do not vote for somebody who is going to vote for you. Or a past the post system like in the UK.
                  And so, it is a more democratic system. Russia is a democratic country too. Well in theory it is. And so there is a scale of how democratic a country is. (There  surely must be a list somewhere)
                  And so, i consider the US and the UK less democratic the The Netherlands or Switzerland.

                  A minority can make their own party like the Animal Rights group, and they can have real political influence.
                  Can the indigenous Americans form their own party and get a seat in parliament?

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    "You do not vote for somebody who is going to vote for you."

                    Then I'm not understanding.  You vote for a legislator who will then cast votes in your Parliament, hopefully along the lines of what you would have voted.  That's what we do with our Electoral College: vote for people who will then cast a vote for the President.  Their names were even listed on my ballot.

                    Of course Indians can form their own party, and of course they can get a seat in Parliament.  That is the case for every American citizen; all it takes is enough of a like mind.

      2. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 8 months agoin reply to this

        After reading through the replies I am surprised that no one has pointed out that the US is NOT a democracy, but a republic. Duh. The framers of the Constitution were aware that a pure "majority rules" democracy would disenfranchise minorities. Without the safeguard of the electoral college, all political power would be concentrated in the population centers, that is, in the cities. All political decisions affecting the entire nation would be made by, for example, New York City. The entire remainder of the country would be disenfranchised.

        Many, if not most, state governments, which have no such safeguards in place already effectively operate in this way. New York state's political decision-making effectively resides in New York City, disenfranchising the rest of the state. Illinois' political decision-making effectively resides in Chicago. Chicago votes to tax the entire state to death to support its profligacy. All other citizens of Illinois effectively have no say in its governance, and are disenfranchised.

        This is what the framers of the Constitution wished to avoid, by setting up a republic.

        1. peterstreep profile image81
          peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

          So why is the US always advertising about bringing democracy to other nations if they have a flawed one themselves?
          Is it not that you can be a republic and a democracy at the same time? To me you say a cow is not an animal but a mammal. It does not make sense.
          Germany is a republic too, but far more democratic then the US.

          I can understand that you don't want New York city to rule over rural Texas. But I guess you have local elections for that. As for a presidential election it makes sense to me that the president is there for all Americans, and so the weight of the vote of all Americans should be the same, which it is not.
          P.S. This flawed system is also here in Spain where I live. And Spain is a monarchy.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            "But I guess you have local elections for that."

            It goes far deeper than that, with a vast difference between the basic philosophies of the political parties.  With ever increasing power granted to the federal government, the very basis of our rural states (self sufficiency and hard work) is being taken from them by the growing nanny state that makes all decisions and provides for all needs of every person regardless their own efforts.  It is foreign down to the innermost fibers of our rural people, and it shows very clearly and plainly if we look at how counties vote.  All the liberal power is coming from large cities with the huge majority (land mass, not population) outside of those cities going conservative...and watching as their lifestyle is eroded every year by the nanny in the capital.

            1. peterstreep profile image81
              peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

              I think what you want is impossible Wilderness. Because you are also asking for stopping all federal government subsidies to the farmers or car manufactures for example.
              True independence is living off the grid, without help from nobody. You can't ask that from people as the world have to go back 200 years.
              No internet, no phone network. No navigation network. A lot of things are organized world wide or on a government level. That's what it is. We live in an interconnected world. The almond harvest in California has a influence on the prices of almonds in Spain. etc. A Global market is here to stay.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                There are a few far right radicals or mountain men still doing what you suggest, but I think you know that it is impossible in today's world and no one wants that anyway.

                Government has a place, a very necessary one, in any gathering of people.  The difference is that liberals in our country want that government as large as possible, with responsibility for directing every life and ensuring that everyone's needs are met with very little responsibility left to the individual.

                Conservatives in our country want a government as small as possible, with as little interference in individual lives as possible.  That does NOT mean that there is no useful function for government.

                1. peterstreep profile image81
                  peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  I understand what you mean Wilderness. And I don't think a large government is a good Idea either. Putting a stamp on every paper and writing down in threefold etc. Dictatorships (both from the left - Stalin and from the right Hitler, Franco) have a tendency to do so and control all aspects of your live.
                  I guess it's an equilibrium a country has to look for. Enough police to handle crime, but you don't want a police state either. Enough roads to have a function, but not 2 parallel ones with only one used etc.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    It's that "enough government" that I, and most conservatives, have a problem with.  Liberal legislators in the US have a long history of creating more laws, more rules and more control over everyday life in the country.  Pretty natural as that is the job of legislators (and what gives them ever increasing power) - to make more laws and exert more control.

                    Conservatives, on the other hand, have a long history of demanding smaller government, accepting only laws that are necessary (those that are religion, such as prohibition and blue laws, based are a major exception).  The inevitable result is a government that grows without bounds, a government that takes on more and more responsibility for day to day decisions in our lives, a government that takes on more and more responsibility for every individual in the country.  There is seemingly no end to what our government wishes to control, and that is a complete anathema to the conservatives of the country.

          2. GA Anderson profile image91
            GA Andersonposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            To add a bit to Blueheron's "Republic" explanation, relative to the national election of our President. It is the states that were intended to elect the president—the leader of a Republic of states, not a single mass of citizens.

            The intended purpose was just as has been described—to protect the minority, (smaller less populous states), from the possible tyranny of the majority, (the larger more populated states). Hence the inclusion of the Electoral College in the presidential election process.

            This also illustrates that we are a democracy in the context of how we elect our leaders. On lower than national levels it is the democratic vote of the citizens that chooses their representatives. And that same thought holds for the election of the national offices—the democratic vote of the states determines the representative.

            To not leave anything blurry, the states' votes for the office of president are a reflection of their citizens' votes for that office. The will of the people, in each state, is the determining factor in selecting our president.

            I don't think it is a flawed system. I think it is the best one tried—so far. Pure democracy is dangerous to anyone, (or any state), not in the majority.

            GA

            1. Ken Burgess profile image89
              Ken Burgessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

              I agree with this perspective, it was a strength that I believe we are seeing compromised by the allowance of mail-in ballots that in some states are not postmarked and have no means of identifying who truly filled out the ballot.

              It opens the door for more corruption and more criticism of the process.

              It is also (in PA) un-constitutional what they are allowing.

              No matter how this turns out however, it appears the Republic will be safe for at least a short while longer.  There was no "Blue Wave" that swept Democrats into control of Congress, which means there will be no substantial change occurring to the country, no massive tax hikes, no revision or subversion of the Constitution, no expansion of the Supreme Court.

              Between the Democrats losing seats in the House, the Republicans maintaining control of the Senate and the Supreme Court being more Constitutionalist than ever in my lifetime, there is no threat of a Biden Presidency making massive changes.

              The economy will likely take a hit, his promise to ensure more draconian efforts to "battle the spread" of Covid won't help its recovery, the likelihood that he is in the back-pocket of China will help propel their economy at the expense of "Middle Class" America as had been happening for 30 years prior to Trump...

              More Progressive policies will take hold in Federal Agencies and Policies which will impact schools, employment, freedoms and the growing dominance and power of social media giants like Facebook and Google will continue unchecked...

              Ultimately the Republic will survive for a few more years, but I think we are on the precipice of its demise, and a decade from now we will be far more like the CCP today than the USofA of the 80s and 90s.

              1. GA Anderson profile image91
                GA Andersonposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                When I logged on tonight, (Weds. evening), I was surprised to see that a "Biden Won" thread hadn't been started yet. You should start one for this comment.

                GA

                1. Ken Burgess profile image89
                  Ken Burgessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  It's not a Biden win... its Corporatism, Internationalism, power of an elite class that considers the American people "the masses" at best and collateral to be used as they see fit at its worst.

                  Trump was always the People's FU to the Political and Elite class. This well funded and supported 2020 anarchy of BLM & Antifa riots, of Twitter banning the President and Facebook banning Trump supporters and of Democrat Governors like Cuomo shutting down their State with draconian efforts, the same Governor who sent thousands sick with Covid into Nursing Homes where the most vulnerable would be exposed to it ramping up the death toll....

                  Well the rabble have to be put back in their place, four years of propaganda and censorship did enough to convince a large enough portion of the population to accept a Biden victory, however it is achieved, and a Trump ousting.

                  Once the Pandemic was in effect and the economy shut down to the degree that it was, it should have been all but inevitable... And still it  took, from tens of millions out of work to months of riots to years of misleading "news" to Mail in ballots with no real accountability to get Biden the win.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image91
                    GA Andersonposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    Well . . . I suppose the best I can offer is, "Okay . . . I understand your position."

                    I disagree with almost all of your points, but that's what makes discussions lively and interesting. So let me pick what I hope is a non-partisan issue; the mail-in ballots.

                    We have five states, (I think), that have been using mail-in ballots for years, without the apparent problems you mention. Why is this issue so damaging to the integrity of our elections now?

                    If a ballot is postmarked by election day, why shouldn't it be counted—even if it takes three days to do so? We allow that much time for absentee ballots to be counted. Is a citizen's mail-in ballot so different from a military absentee ballot?

                    GA

                  2. profile image0
                    PrettyPantherposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    What a list! Of course, Trump's behavior and record had absolutely nothing to do with his being fired by the people.

            2. peterstreep profile image81
              peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

              Thank you GA for your explanation. I guess it's pretty difficult to manage a democratic system for a a large country.

              I agree, that I don't trust the opinion of the masses either. I wouldn't there to think about a referendum about the death penalty for instance, which I find barbaric. (different subject though.) But can imagine a majority of the people voting for it. Just depends what the people are fed through the media.

              Still I think it would be more democratic to vote a president by majority of votes then of an electoral collage.
              But every country grows through it's history and moulds itself around it.

              Good luck with the elections.
              The whole world is watching.

              1. GA Anderson profile image91
                GA Andersonposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                It is possible I am a bit premature, (but I don't think so), but it looks like a Biden win. I will be curious to see the world's reaction.

                GA

              2. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 8 months agoin reply to this

                The problem in not trusting the opinion of the masses is: is there a better way?

                Do we instead create a "Star Chamber" (Micheal Douglass film) allowed to pass edicts and can call foul to overrule the wishes of the majorities. What would be the authority of such a group? What would that be called?

                As I and GA discussed before, I support the Electoral College because

                a. It would require a Constitutional Convention to remove, 75 percent of the states would never go along. An exercise in futility.

                b. I do support the idea of giving smaller states a voice in the process as the compromise necessary to create agreement regarding the Constitution's inception.

                C. As long as unfaithful electors are not permitted and their votes must reflect the popular vote breakdown of their respective states, I will live with the Electoral College.

                1. peterstreep profile image81
                  peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  The problem in not trusting the opinion of the masses is:
                  It depends on the question you ask them. And I think there should always be a threshold.
                  The Brexit referendum was a total disaster for example. The majority of the people had no clue what they where voting for or against. Some issues are to complex to use for a referendum.
                  But I see no reason why a president should not be voted by a majority.
                  Maybe the president should be independent of the parties and have a more symbolic function and one with less power. So you can bypass the concerns of the independent states. - Just a thought.

                  1. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    Well, i think that a democracy inherently requires a well educated citizenry.

                    I don't trust anyone being given authority to rule outside the purview of the voters or the provisions provided in the Constitution. Ultimately those elected or delegated by those elected are accountable to me as the citizen and voter and I would not have it any other way.

                    I think that we are on the same train of thought. The Constitution makes a provision for the Electoral College and until recent times is has been exceeding rare that any Presidential candidate won the EC and failed in the popular vote. The fact that this seems to now be a pattern is troubling.

                    Elaborate, please, on your idea that the President should be independent of the parties having a more symbolic function....,,

                2. GA Anderson profile image91
                  GA Andersonposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  "The problem in not trusting the opinion of the masses is: is there a better way?"

                  Ha! of course there is a better way. It's called representative democracy as designed into our own government structure. Duh! ( ;-) Sorry bud, that door was too open for me to resist.)

                  GA

                  1. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    We already have that in Congress, GA, no dispute there. But as the voter, I select who fills those seats and if they operate outside of the desires of those who put them there, they can be removed. As long as they keep this in mind, we will have no issues.  As they, too, are selected by the "unwashed masses" to serve them.

                  2. Credence2 profile image81
                    Credence2posted 8 months agoin reply to this

                    We have been misunderstanding one another, I have never had issue with representative democracy, as long as the democracy is always part of the "representative".

          3. blueheron profile image94
            blueheronposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            Peterstreep:

            "So why is the US always advertising about bringing democracy to other nations if they have a flawed one themselves?"

            For the love of God, PLEASE tell me that this is not REALLY a mystery to you.

            There has long been an effort to conflate a democracy with a republic and create a confusion in terms. This goes back as far and the 50s and probably long before that.

            The purpose of creating this confusion, and the continual reinforcement of the notion that our system is a democracy, is simply because a democracy better serves the interests of lawless (or would-be lawless) elites.

            Democracy is basically a system whereby "anything goes"--as long as you can persuade the masses that it is perfectly okay. And we have all had a recent object lesson as to the gullibility and stupidity of the masses, in the form of the covid nonsense.

            You can persuade the masses to abort their own children, and make it a virtue. You can persuade them that money-printing will never have any adverse economic consequences. (The masses are innumerate and not only ignorant of history and economics, but incapable of understanding them. At least half of them are incapable of processing math or information in a logical and rational way. You can tell them the moon is made of Stilton and, if repeated often enough, they will believe it.) You could persuade them to drown all red-headed babies at birth, if you put your mind to it.

            "Is it not that you can be a republic and a democracy at the same time?"

            Um...no.

            The distinction between a republic and a democracy is the a republic is a Rule of Law. A democracy is a Rule of Men. (They used to teach you this stuff in school.)

            Under the Rule of Law, certain well defined rights cannot be abrogated--no matter how many people say, and are willing to vote, to do away with them. Under the Rule of Law, certain acts are proscribed and carry criminal penalties. Looting, assault, vandalism, and destruction of others' property come to mind. We have also recently seen quite a bit of lawlessness at the highest levels of our government.

            But, hey, "the people" say it's okay (and are willing to vote to show their support), right? And that's all that matters, isn't it?

            As the Rule of Men, democracy will permit pretty much anything. Property rights may be abrogated, as long as everyone is okay with that. You have a nice big house. Surely you can't object to sheltering a few dozen homeless people in your home? As long as it's for the common good, and everybody (on TV) says so.

            Businesses can be forced to close. Whole cities can be put under house arrest. Travel can be banned. Free assembly can be banned. All for the common good.

            Perhaps you can see how democracy plays into the hands of tyrants; they can do ANYTHING. All they have to do is win the support of the masses--which is easily done. Nothing easier.

            1. peterstreep profile image81
              peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

              First according to you you can't have a republic and a democracy at the same time. Then you sum up a lot of problems in in your own country that are handled badly blaming it on a democratic system. That's warped reasoning.
              Democracy can be in different levels. Depending on the political system. A kingdom can be a democracy, so can be a republic. Germany is a republic, but it's a democracy too. Holland is a kingdom but a democracy too.
              You paint democracy as a bad thing, a thing of riots, and all sorts of scary things. Travel can be banned, businesses can be closed... This is utter nonsense. There are many democratic countries in the world with great economic systems.
              Some countries are more democratic then others. There is even a list of countries showing the amount of democracy in a country. With Norway on top. And I don't think Norway is a bad place to live in!
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

              1. blueheron profile image94
                blueheronposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                Nevertheless, this is what democracy--the Rule of Men, the rule of the majority, mob rule--IS. If the majority vote for the legalization of pedophilia, your kid can be raped with impunity.

                The examples I have mentioned--the closing of businesses, placing whole populations under house arrest, banning travel, banning free assembly, the apparently approved violent assaults and destruction of life and property--are precisely what HAS happened. All these actions, in the US at least, are against black-letter law. Under the Rule of Law they would not be permitted.

                Yet we see that, in a democracy, where there is at least a presumption of majority approval, anything is possible.

                There are certain baseline requirements for a functioning economy. It is impossible to have a functioning economy without certain prerequisites. Among them are security in ones person and property, enforced by the Rule of Law. Others are sound money, ethical business practices, and the enforcement of contract law. (I am probably overlooking some, but I think these provide a baseline.)

                In settings in which there is no security in ones person and property, there will be no businesses. We see this (accompanied by constant lamentation) in the lawless areas of America's urban centers, where we hear the complaint that there are no grocery stores, no pharmacies, no restaurants, no gas stations, no movie theaters. While doubtless a majority of those living in such areas would attribute this to racial prejudice, the proximate cause is that theft and vandalism make such economic activity impossible--assuming that the residents didn't actually burn the place down and shoot the owner and employees. A farmer will not grow crops and raise livestock if his crops are burned or stolen and his livestock stolen every year. No one will travel for business purposes into a region where he is likely to be robbed, assaulted, or murdered.

                You cannot have much in the way of economic activity without a foundation of ethical businesses practices and the strict enforcement of contract law. No one will offer goods and services for sale when there is no security that they will be paid. No one will pay for goods and services when there is no security that said goods and services will be duly provided.

                In the absence of sound money, economic activity becomes largely impractical, or at least highly inefficient, as you're back to a barter system.

                Where the Rule of Law erodes, economic activity stagnates and declines. We have seen and continue to see the erosion of the Rule of Law in almost every area of Western society.

                1. peterstreep profile image81
                  peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  I think we have a complete different idea about the word democracy.

                  If I talk about democracy I talk about a government voted in by the people. There are different systems to do so. Some are more democratic then others.

              2. blueheron profile image94
                blueheronposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                I think, too, that many of Trump's apparent failures to act decisively--i.e., in relation to prosecuting some of our malefactors at the highest level of government, and in relation to covid measures--arises from an awareness that the Rule of Law must, above all other considerations, be preserved. Lawlessness at high levels must be addressed by the slow-grinding gears of the courts. In the case of covid, black-letter law governing states' rights must be preserved. Otherwise you have only accelerated the descent into lawlessness.

                1. peterstreep profile image81
                  peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  Trump? Remind me again, who was Trump? I'm not very good at sports.

    6. Sharlee01 profile image85
      Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Actually, in my view which I obtained due to signing on to canvas in 2016 and now --- The majority have shared with me they had become discouraged with the Democratic ideology that was born under the Obama ad. Yes,  weary of his regulations that did affect the economy and due to the lefts need to apologize for actually almost everything American...  It was a turbulent time for many American's.  I as an individual take it as an insult that I supported a president due to what you call his racist and sexist attitudes. Putting all in the "basket of deplorable" seems very much illogical. The article was very bias. I can see why and how you may have come to many of your core beliefs.

      My truth --- I believe many conservatives live side by side with others black white whatever color, without a problem, looking at them as just human beings like themselves. I think black people will never get from under recognizing yes that racism still exists but far less than ever...  Bias articles as the one you posted are a big part of the problem. In my view,  these kinds of articles serve one purpose, to make blacks feel they are different, and they seek to blanket the white race as being racist. This kind of article serves to do nothing but make sure the divide stays deep and wide. When you and look to your community, are you noting innate racism?   Please do not take offense when reading my comment. Just a thought  I think perhaps more need to open up and share opinions on racism. I also as you have pointed out am not black, and that is very fair to point out.

    7. abwilliams profile image67
      abwilliamsposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      This, as a topic of discussion is sad...pathetically sad.
      It is no more, no less complicated than this; I want Government out of my way (as intended) the bigger and more intrusive Government is...the worse things are, for all of the people. THE END

  2. islandantoinette profile image60
    islandantoinetteposted 8 months ago

    CONGRATULATIONS CREDENCE.!!!!  ALL OF THE "OTHER" FLORIDIANS, AND OF COURSE HAWAI'IANS AND EVERY PERSON OF MIXED ANCESTRY AND ETHNICITY WHO LIVE IN ONE OFTHESE 50 STATES; IS POSITIVELY ECSTATIC WITH  KAMALA  HARRIS, JOE BIDEN AND YOU!!! OVER THE WIN _ WHICH IS OVER THE TRUMP..

    1. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 8 months agoin reply to this

      Thanks, Antoinette, but the real miracle is yet to come.

      We must now dispense with "Machiavelli Mitch" and the duplicitous Republican controlled Senate.

 
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