Racism, Institutional or Otherwise, in America

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  1. My Esoteric profile image86
    My Esotericposted 2 years ago

    Three white men were recently convicted of chasing down and murdering a black man who had the audacity to appear in their neighborhood.  A year ago or more they might have gotten away with it.

    Today there is a report of another white father and son team shooting at a black FedEx driver at least five times.

    Attacks like this by white men on blacks is not uncommon in America; sometimes the attackers are the police.

    The question for this forum is why so many Republicans REFUSE to accept the fact that their is wide-spread, even institutional, racism in America.  What are they afraid of (they have most of the guns, after all).

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/10/us/missi … index.html

    1. Nathanville profile image93
      Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Good question, I’d be interested in any responses from your fellow American citizens!

      Of course, things aren’t as bad across the pond, in Britain, but we do have our own problems; as may be apparent by the resignation yesterday of Dame Cressida Rose Dick DPE QPM (the London’s Commissioner of Police), following Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London) losing confidence in her.

      Dame Cressida Dick: Why did the Met Police chief resign? https://youtu.be/ZwAHEEU2dxs

      So perhaps, with a new Commissioner of Police for London the endemic racism and other prejudices in the London police force will be shaken up for the better?

      1. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        Arthur, I have been reading accounts from the Pakistanis, who say that they are on the bottom of the totem pole within English Society. Regardless, they were not lynched, had their homes blown up or been denied rights under law as what has occurred here.

        What is your opinion regarding this?

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          That’s a good question, and one that I didn’t have an immediate answer to; so I’ve done a bit of my own research (to fill in the gaps in my personal knowledge and experience), which was educational.

          According to Wikipedia and other sources the UK is home to the largest Pakistani community in Europe, Pakistanis make up the second largest ethnic minority in England and Wales at 1.17m, 2% of the population (in Bristol, where I live, the Pakistani’s make up 1.6% of our local population). The most concentrated regions of Pakistani communities being in the West Midlands (20.2% of the Pakistani population in Britain), Yorkshire and Humber (20.1%), London (19.9%) and the North West (16.8%).

          Apparently the chance of a Pakistani being racially attacked in Britain in a year is greater than 4%, the highest rate of racism in the country, not by ordinary citizens like you and me, but predominantly by far-right fascist, racist and anti-immigrant movements.

          For example in 2001, riots occurred in Bradford (West Midlands). Two of the main reasons for the riots were social deprivation and the actions of extreme right wing groups leading to clashes between the Anti-Nazi League and the National Front (far-right fascist group) and the police.

          Around that time period (20 years ago) I used to travel to Leeds monthly, for meetings, and some of my close work colleagues in Leeds lived in Bradford; very nice people to work and socialise with e.g. while I was there we’d all meet up in a pub for drinks in the evening, and then go onto a restaurant for a meal after, but the Bradford area was certainly a little run down (lacked adequate rejuvenation investment from the Government)!

          Bradford Riots - 20 Year ago. Has Bradford Moved On?  https://youtu.be/yZD9Iw5Ah9I

          Historically, starting in the late 1960 and peaking in the 1970s and 1980s (but thankfully now something of the past) were violent gangs opposed to immigration who targeted Pakistani’s with frequent attacks, gangs who were inspired by the famous “Rivers of Blood speech” made by Enoch Powell in 1968. 

          Enoch Powell was an extreme right-wing conservative, and openly racist, MP in Westminster, London from 1950 to 1974; and then an elected Ulster Unionist Party MP, in Northern Ireland from 1974 to 1987; and his political clashes with the Catholics sparked a lot of tension and violence during the Irish 30 years Troubles from 1968 to 1998. Ironically, the Northern Ireland Peace Treaty (Good Friday Agreement) was signed the same year that Enoch Powell died!

          I remember Enoch Powell very well, and glad to see him gone.

          ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech, 50 years on: Setting the scene in 1968:  https://youtu.be/r3QC5_efQb0

          1. Credence2 profile image76
            Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Arthur, thanks for the informative video providing a background.

            Mr. Powell reminds me a great deal our George Wallace in Alabama and his rhetoric at about the same period. I think that Governor Wallace died about the same time as Mr. Powell.

            Immigration is a hot issue here and its significance to additional stress on society has been exaggerated by the Right, as usual. The fear of a loss of the American Culture, whatever that is, as it changes the day, is just an excuse for their fear that the "Right" people may not remain of control of American society. Because, the current birth rates of citizens can and will make that an eventuality, regardless.

            1. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks for your feedback Credence.  We’ve probably similar problems in Britain, but to a lesser degree!

              One of the main issue, which the ‘right’ (Conservatives) are in denial about is the fact that we are an ageing population with a falling birth rate; so we do need immigration to fill the jobs, whether the ‘right’ like it or not.

              Back in the 1970s the average UK family had 2.4 children, but over the decades that birth-rate has gradually declined, so the current average is only 1.7 children.

              One of the main arguments by the ‘right’ for Brexit was to ‘take back control of our borders’ e.g. as part of the EU, other Europeans could freely live and work in Britain.  As a consequent of Brexit most Europeans have returned to their own country, causing chronic shortage of labour across all sectors, including bus drivers, lorry drivers, agricultural etc., including the loss of 100,000 nurses and doctors from the NHS who have returned home to mainland Europe since Brexit (about 7.7% of the NHS workforce).

              Since Brexit the UK Government has done nothing to resolve the Labour shortages, just buried its head in the sand.

              But ironically, because since leaving the EU Britain has virtually no ‘Trade Deals’ so most of our imports and exports are currently on WTO terms; so the UK Government is desperate for Trade Deals, and in a weak bargaining position.  So on negotiating with countries like India for example, India’s demands for agreeing to a Trade Deal with the UK is for its citizens to be able to migrate to the UK freely!

              So as things stand at the moment, due to the way things have played out because of the typical anti-immigration attitudes of a right-wing Government, we’ll end up with immigrants from places like India instead of Europeans to fill the gaps in our job market in Britain – which I think has a certain air of irony.

              1. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                It is the civility associated with English culture that kept the more savage examples of bigotry away from your shores.

                I still trying to get over the fact that your law enforcement people do not carry a firearm as a standard.

                Britain may be taking the attitude that I heard prevailed in Germany, the immigrant labor is supplementing that of the native born which is in short supply.

                If you been following the news here, there has been a situation where many jobs are going unfilled, the pandemic being the catalyst, where those on the lower end of the economic ladder are no longer anxious to work under exploitative conditions. They are staying home with mom and dad or going to school and holding for better employment arrangements.

                As a result, minimum wages customary for many of these jobs have been going up with some consideration given to providing benefits. I would suspect that the Right rather than surrender profits would scream for a loosening of immigrant restrictions to increase the labor pool and decrease the urgency for them to provide better compensation. I will have to wait and see.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah, I did get the impression from the news of all the unfilled jobs and the other issues you mention in the USA post pandemic, and which seems to be part of a worldwide problem adversely affecting the supply chains; and in the UK compounded by the additional trade problems caused by Brexit!

                  Yeah, one would have thought that the ‘right-wing’ would rather loosen immigration restrictions than surrender profits; but with their new found freedom from the EU (after Brexit) the UK right-wing Conservative Government is intent on tightening immigration laws, not loosening them (basing the new UK immigration laws on the tough Australian immigration laws) – And the Conservative’s public argument is to vindicate Brexit by arguing that the labour shortages will mean that wages will have to rise for everyone, benefiting everyone (supply and demand) e.g. justifying Brexit, and angling themselves to try to win Labour (socialist) votes again in the north of England come the next General Election as a way of trying to stay in power?

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    " ‘right-wing’ would rather loosen immigration restrictions than surrender profits; " - Just goes to show the Right-wing everywhere have the same agenda, destroy economies, lol

                  2. Credence2 profile image76
                    Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    "And the Conservative’s public argument is to vindicate Brexit by arguing that the labour shortages will mean that wages will have to rise for everyone, benefiting everyone (supply and demand) e.g. justifying Brexit, and angling themselves to try to win Labour (socialist) votes again in the north of England come the next General Election as a way of trying to stay in power?"

                    Interesting strategy, Arthur. Capitalists are greedy though, does not the prospect of paying higher wages and cutting into profits make them nervous?
                    -----
                    The Rightwingers here like to give a false impression that their approach and policies benefit the man in the street, nothing can be further from the truth.

            2. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Credence, on the question of ethnicity, below is data from the 2011 Census; I’ve given data for the UK Average as a baseline, and for comparison, the ethnicity of Bristol (where I live), London (the Capital), and Northern Ireland.

              I don’t know how this compares with the USA?

              UK ethnicity Average Across the whole of the UK (Census 2011):
              •    White = 87.1%
              •    Asians = 7%
              •    Blacks = 3%
              •    Mixed = 2%
              •    Other Ethnic Groups (including Arabs) = 0.9%
              •    Gypsies = 0.1%

              Bristol (where I live) ethnicity (Census 2011):
              •    White = 83.9%
              •    Blacks = 6%
              •    Asians = 5.5%
              •    Mixed = 3.6%
              •    Other Ethnic Groups = 0.9% (0.3% being Arab)
              •    Gypsies = 0.1%

              London ethnicity (Census 2011):  Where there is the least amount of racial prejudice in the UK.
              •    White = 59.69%
              •    Asians = 18.49%
              •    Blacks = 13.32%
              •    Mixed = 4.96%
              •    Other Ethnic Groups = 3.27% (1.3% being Arab)
              •    Gypsies = 0.1%

              Northern Ireland ethnicity (Census 2011):  Where there is the most amount of racial prejudice in the UK.
              •    White = 98.14%
              •    Asians = 1.6%
              •    Blacks = 0.2%
              •    Mixed = 0.33%
              •    Other Ethnic Groups = 0.13%
              •    Gypsies = 0.07%

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                WOW,  I didn't realize the UK was that white.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I hadn't put much thought into it before because racism hasn't generally been a major issue in British Society, so this forum is proving educational for me.

              2. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                There remains a predominant Anglo population throughout the British Isles compared with the USA.

                In the US, it depends on which states you reside in, you will find minorities as a majority in states like Hawaii, California and even Texas. While it is predominantly white in states like Maine, Vermont and Idaho.

                Without looking it up, I would say that whites constitute about 65 percent of the American population nationwide.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, likewise, in the UK it depends where you live as to the ethnicity mix; for example there tends to be greater ethnicity mix in the big cities than the towns and rural areas.  And conversely there tends to be greater understanding and tolerance of different ethnic groups in the big cities than in small towns and villages where the white residence have less close contact with other ethnic groups.

                  London being a prime example of where less than 60% of the population is white, while having a rich and cohesive cultural mix; albeit the two area of Britain that historical has had racial friction, Birmingham and Bradford, doesn’t fit the above pattern as well, so it just goes to show that no issue is ever black and white (no pun intended).  Although I do think it has a lot to do with the level of deprivation e.g. London is a very wealthy city, while Bradford has one of the highest unemployment rates in England.

                  Below is the ethnicity of Birmingham and Bradford (Census 2011):-

                  Birmingham ethnicity (Census 2011):
                  •    White = 57.89%
                  •    Asians = 26.62%
                  •    Blacks = 8.98%
                  •    Mixed = 4.44%
                  •    Other Ethnic Groups = 2.03% (1.2% being Arab)
                  •    Gypsies = 0.04%

                  Bradford ethnicity (Census 2011):
                  •    White = 67.44%
                  •    Asians = 26.83%
                  •    Blacks = 1.77%
                  •    Mixed = 2.48%
                  •    Other Ethnic Groups = 1.48%

      2. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        Interesting.  All countries have race problems for sure.  Ours is particularly bad.  I do note that England ended slavery and the slave trade 100 years before the Civil War forced American's do so.

        What was Khan's problem with her?

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Cressida Dick was given the position of Commissioner of Police for London specifically to clean up the act - and instead of being part of the solution; she has become part of the problem.

          Last week Sadiq Khan (London’s elected Mayor, and a Muslim) said in a statement. “I made clear to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner the scale of the change I believe is urgently required to rebuild the trust and confidence of Londoners in the Met and to root out the racism, sexism, homophobia, bullying, discrimination and misogyny that still exists,”

          Cressida Dick has failed to do so, and her plans which she gave to Sadiq Khan, are in his eyes not good enough (she’s had plenty of time to sort things out); and he’s just lost confidence in her.

          The issues that as Commissioner of Police she has let happen, and not addressed, including the following:-

          1.    In 2005 under her watch, the Met (London) Police marksman deliberately shot dead an innocent man (Jean Charles de Menezes) in error.

          2.    Cressida Dick was involved with investigating a major paedophile ring in 2016, but the courts found that the police had more than 40 failings in their operation, and evidence of a cover-up by Cressida Dick to defend her senior officers in the failed case.

          3.    In 2019 the Met (London) police failed to respond quickly enough to prevent, or limit, protests by the ‘Extinction Rebellion’ protest groups from closing down a large part of central London for several days; with the heavy financial costs that it caused.

          4.    Under her watch, the heavy handed treatment by the Met (London) police of defences women having a peaceful vigil in memory of Sarah Edward, who had been murdered by a London Policeman; the only crime by the women was the breach of ‘social distancing’ rules during the covid pandemic restrictions.

          5.    The fact that a policeman raped and murdered Sarah Edward; a bad apple.

          6.    Cressida Dick is under investigation by two watchdogs, after an inquiry described the Med (London Police Force) as being 'institutionally corrupt', because she has deliberately covered up evidence to protect her Officers in an outstanding unsolved brutal murder back in 1987.

          7.    In 2020 fans storm Wembley football arena; the police didn’t do enough to try to stop the stampede, and were criticised when Cressida Dick response was one of denial by saying “I do not accept that the policing operation failed”.

          8.    Spiralling teenage murders in London under her watch, in spite of the fact that she said that “tackling violent crime was her 'number one priority.'

          9.    In 2020 two London police officers shared photos on WhatsApp of the dead bodies of two half-sisters who were murdered in a London Park; the two Police Officers were sentenced to two years and nine months.

          10.    Last week, an investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct found officers were indulging in misogynistic workplace "banter".  The investigation showed that the London cops would exchange highly offensive racist, sexist and homophobic messages while bullying and harassing colleagues.  It also found a vile set of WhatsApp groups and Facebook messenger chats by the London police that  joke about "slapping your missus about" and calling them "daft c**ts" for getting murdered by their boyfriends etc.

          11.    In recent years multiple charges of racism have been levelled at the Met (London Police); but little done about it.

          12.    And last but not least, the Partygate scandal, in which Boris Johnson (Prime Minister) is being questioned by the police this week for his role in breaking his own covid laws during the pandemic lockdown.  Under the watch of Cressida Dick, the Met Police are being heavily criticised for not only ‘not investing sooner the alleged breach of the law by the UK Government during lockdown’, but also by being implicit in the offences e.g. there is always a police presents outside 10 Downing Street (for security reasons); so at the time the police will have been fully aware of what was happening inside, when the UK Government was breaching its own laws.  More so when other (ordinary people) who broke the same law was fined by the police.

    2. Sharlee01 profile image88
      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      What the hell are you talking about? First, why do you incorporate all republicans under one umbrella?  Second, last I knew we all are entitled to have individual opinions.  Your first three paragraphs are conversation-worthy. IMO your question----

      This kind of question was purely meant to antagonize, and cause friction. .  And again CNN? 

      Your Democratic race card game hopefully will not draw comments. Get some new material, the race card is old and overplayed.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        You are pulling a Wilderness by using the "all" word inappropriately.  Why do you insert words where they don't exist?

        Why don't you want me to speak the truth?

        And there you go - shooting the messenger again. Pretty childish if you ask me.  Why do you want to censor what I read?

      2. gmwilliams profile image84
        gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        +1000000000000, yes there are some incidents of racism in America, not only Blacks & Latinos, also Asians & some outlier ethnic groups.  Blacks aren't the only ones subjected to so-called racism.  As there are some Caucasians who commit racial crimes, there are some Blacks who commit racial crimes also.  By the way, I am a Black woman.

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          "yes there are some incidents of racism in America" - Oh give me a break!! SOME?, lol Tell me why most black parents have to give their kids "the talk"?  Why are most black drivers in real fear when they get pulled over by a cop, especially in the South? Please climb out of your Trump cocoon and join reality.

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Perhaps because they are being taught that they will be murdered by any cop that gets within shooting range?

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              I suspect some are, but most are being taught on how to act in case they run    into the many bad  racists cops.who don't need much of an excuse to harm or kill an innocent black person.

              Fortuneately for all of us, most cops are good.  That said, there enough bad cops out there where even I am fearful of them.

    3. Credence2 profile image76
      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I would not go so far as to say that this affair has a racist motive, even though the scene would indicate as much.

      But, look at them, a couple of scraggly looking hillbilly types.

      I will say though that there needs to be maximum penalties. People need to be reminded that you better have a damn good reason for threatening someone with a firearm and even a better one for discharging one.

      As for the Arbury case, it was only fortuitous that the mother of the deceased asked pointed questions because from what I understood the police initially lied to her as to the circumstances surrounding the shooting. The community was more than content in covering this up.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        I heard the driver's take on the incident.  He had no doubt in his mind it was racial because that was the only possible explanation.  No others made sense.

    4. Sharlee01 profile image88
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      "The question for this forum is why so many Republicans REFUSE to accept the fact that their is wide-spread, even institutional, racism in America.  "

      Firstly, many conservatives feel that the notion of "systemic racism" is somewhat exaggerated and often misused as a political tool to push a certain agenda. Conservatives may acknowledge that individual acts of racism exist, but they may question the extent to which racism is entrenched in the structures and institutions of society.

      I could argue that the United States has made significant progress in addressing racism and inequality, citing examples such as the election of a Black president and the passage of civil rights legislation.

      Furthermore, some conservatives, as I do, may believe that focusing too much on the issue of race can be divisive and counterproductive. I would argue that the country should be focused on unifying people of all races and backgrounds, rather than highlighting differences and promoting identity politics.

      I could also argue that policies and programs designed to address racial disparities, such as affirmative action, can be discriminatory against individuals who do not belong to historically disadvantaged groups.

      And finally,  while there may be differing viewpoints on the issue of racism in America, it is important to approach the discussion with an open mind and a willingness to consider multiple perspectives.

      Race-baiting is harmful, and can only work to exacerbate a serious problem that we Americans have been working on for many decades.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

        Could it be conservatives simply don't want to face reality so they make up things to deflect from it - such as " "systemic racism" is somewhat exaggerated and often misused as a political tool to push a certain agenda."?

        Are you suggesting that conservatives are so obtuse that they can't see what is right in front of them?  That seems to me to the reality.

        Is there systemic and institutional racism in America yesterday and today?  It is like asking if the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.  It is a given and study after study after study (let alone everyday observation) prove this.

        There is no doubt America has made progress, albeit very slowly.  Slavery existed   It took from 1619 - 1864.  A of progress was made in giving Blacks the same rights as Whites for the next few years.  But around 1874, the conservative Chase Court (sort of looks like today's Court) wiped all of those gains out an effectively put southern blacks back into servitude.

        There it stayed until around 1937 when Justice Owen Roberts switched from a conservative position to a progressive one.  From then the Court began bring back the rights that Blacks ought to enjoy, but in large part didn't.

        The 1950s and early 1960s saw the Black revolution as they sought to free themselves of the virtual shackles the Whites had them in.  With the Civil Rights Act of 1964, all the rights the Chase and subsequent conservative Courts took away were restored.

        Things were looking up for blacks until the Rehnquist Court in 1987.  From that point on, conservatives have slowly but surely been chipping away at the rights Blacks had attained in 1964.

        https://fpg.unc.edu/sites/fpg.unc.edu/f … 20Like.pdf

        https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population … ed-states/

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7778398/

        https://cognitiveresearchjournal.spring … 21-00349-3

        Is it any wonder that conservatives, given their history, can't admit that institutional racism exists?

        1. Sharlee01 profile image88
          Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          I find people to be very much individuals. I am a conservative, and I shared my view. A view that came from a lifetime of observing, and learning.

          I truely believe (and have said it frequently) most conservatives feel much differently about systemic racism than liberals do. I think many conservatives feel we have made good progress, toward equality, and that yes, more work is needed.

          I also feel there is a very different mindset between liberals and conservatives. It seems to greatly disturb you.

          You do know there is a pretty good chance that the majority of conservatives would not agree with your thought 100% in regard to systemic racism.   We are just wired differently.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            You keep using the word "feel".  They can "feel" all they want, but it only mean anything if that feeling is based on objective evidence.

            I can say I feel the moon is made of green cheese.  But, objectively, it isn't  The same is true if conservatives "feel" institutional racism doesn't exist, yet the objective evidence says it does. 

            Doesn't that make their feeling wrong and counterproductive?  Because so long as they keep denying reality, things won't get better without the oppressed fighting hard for their rights.

            If the majority of conservatives do not agree, which is probably true, then the majority of conservatives are simply wrong.  It has nothing at all to do with how we are wired.  Either institutional racism exists or it doesn't.  All Evidence says it does as a matter of Fact, not conjecture.

            There is no doubt there is a very different mindset between conservatives and liberals.  And to the degree that the consequences of the conservative view is people losing their rights (such as the right to privacy or to vote) and get hurt, then yes, it disturbs me.

            It has become very evident from all of these discussions on these forums is a fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives are not particularly bothered if people lose rights or are hurt (unless it is family and friends) AND when they are bothered, they are not inclined to do anything about it.

            On the other hand, liberals care very much what happens to other people and it is in our DNA to try to make things better for society as a whole. 

            That is the different wiring of which you speak, not whether one wants to believe an objective truth or not.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

              "conservatives are not particularly bothered if people lose rights or are hurt (unless it is family and friends) AND when they are bothered, they are not inclined to do anything about it."

              You mean like the right of the unborn to live.  The right to bear arms.  The right to compete against one's own sex in sports programs.  The right to privacy in a changing/rest room.  The right to be involved in their child's decisions, including major, life changing permanent surgery or in the decision to abort a fetus.  The right to keep what they earn, and the right to a private contract between themselves and their employer.  I could go on and on, but you get the point.

              I'd have to say the conservatives are very concerned about rights, and do act on it when threatened.  The left, on the other hand, appear willing and eager to give their rights to the government.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                So agree with your sentiment.    And one wonders why so few post here.

              2. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                The right for fetuses to "live"? That may be the only thing they care about. They certain don't care about the mother. For example, Florida forced a woman to carry to term a baby with no kidney's and other problems even though it could have very well killed the mother.

                You worry about the fetus who has no rights and I worry about the actual, living mother that has all the rights until viability.  Where in the Constitution does it say fetuses have any rights at all?  Is there a 2nd amendment for fetuses?

                " The right to be involved in their child's decisions, including major," - OH, SO you oppose the Missouri law that takes the right of the parent to decide what is best for their transgender child. I see.

                You laid out a lot of things that have nothing to do with the person.

                You oppose ANY restriction on owning "weapons" no matter how many "people" die because of them

                You for some reason care more about a "non-living fetus" that the "person" carrying it.

                Where in the Constitution does it give the so-called right of a person to compete in a sport where the players only have vagina's or penises? (What about men who had reconstructing surgery and now have a working vagina.)  While at the same time inflicting great emotional harm on the trans who wants to play on a team of their own gender.

                Where in the Constitution does it say you have a right to keep what you earn?

                And you said it not me - conservatives care about rights and not people.

                1. wilderness profile image93
                  wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  I think that's what I said; you care not for the very life of the unborn, while declaring that conservatives do not care for their rights.

                  "You oppose ANY restriction on owning "weapons" no matter how many "people" die because of them"

                  I've asked you before not to lie about what I think, yet you continue to do it.  Is there a reason?

                  "Where in the Constitution does it give the so-called right of a person to compete in a sport where the players only have vagina's or penises?"

                  You then deny that there are human rights not included in our Constitution?  And yet I'm pretty sure you have referenced the international list of "basic human rights"; do they only apply when you like them and use them to support your arguments?

                  "What about men who had reconstructing surgery and now have a working vagina."

                  When that male has changed their skeleton, muscle structure and DNA, then you can ask the question.  Not even a working vagina turns a male into a female.

                  "And you said it not me - conservatives care about rights and not people."

                  No - that is the liberal stance, from people that separate "rights" from "people" in their never ending and futile attempts to provide an imaginary "equity" for all people.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image75
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                    "Not even a working vagina turns a male into a female." Good point. I guess you have to explain this fact.

                    What makes a woman a woman?

                    A reconstructed vagina?

                    No, an actual nature-produced womb, appropriate hormones to produce pregnancy and birthing abilities.

                    Not to mention those tattle-tale chromosomes.

                    XX female

                    XY Male

                    (Females contribute the X chromosome only.
                    The Y chromosome comes from males.)

            2. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              I would like to bring to your attention that I have noticed a lack of empathy in your comments. It is important to respect individuals' right to express their opinions without fear of being ridiculed or insulted, especially using words to insult an entire group, as you did with conservatives.   I observed this pattern in the comment I am responding to, which I found concerning. It would be appreciated if you could refrain from using such language and be more considerate in your interactions.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                And you don't insult all liberals and Democrats?  Come on, Sharilee.

                It seems to me that this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    5. gmwilliams profile image84
      gmwilliamsposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

      Yes, in the 1980s, in the Howard Beach section of Queens, three Black men were attacked by a group of 4 Caucasian teens outside a pizza parlor.  One of the Black men, a 23 year old, was killed. while fleeing the teenagers.  Three of the four teenagers were convicted of manslaughter. In 1989, Yusuf Hawkins was killed while looking at cars in the Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn.  There were protests regarding the Howard Beach & Bensonhurst incidents.

      1. wilderness profile image93
        wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        According to Reuters, getting their information from US Department of Justice, 93% of blacks that are murdered are killed by blacks.  That leaves something less than 7% of black murders to be committed by whites.

        Teaching black children to be afraid of whites seems contraindicated; far better to teach them to be afraid of other blacks, for that is where the killers are found.  Unless the children are white, whereupon 84% of the killers are also white.  Murder is, by far, a, intraracial affair.

        https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN24I29S/

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          That is an eye opening revelation in itself.

        2. gmwilliams profile image84
          gmwilliamsposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          I know that.  I was just presenting what happened in Bensonhurst & Howard Beach in the 1980s.   Of course, we all know that there are massive crimes in neighborhoods in the South Bronx, East New York, some parts of Chicago(those crimes are intraracial).   The South Bronx is so riddled w/crime that I avoid the South Bronx.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            But isn't the point of Wilderness's post that because the numbers are small, why worry?

        3. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

          Extrapolating, more than half of that 7% are hate crimes driven by racism.  Crimes against black by whites has been on the rise since Trump took office.  Is it any wonder black parents give "the talk" to their children?

          https://eji.org/news/fbi-reports-hate-c … -12-years/

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

            No matter how you look at it, twist it, leave out most of it, the fact remains that the huge majority of black murders are committed by blacks.  Why then would you waste your time giving "the talk" about evil white people when the kids are very unlikely to have a problem there (less than 7% probability)?  Given the statistics, children would be best off to seek out help and safety from whites, not fear them.

            Answer; because it is now almost required to teach the woke philosophy that all whites are evil and all evil comes from whites.  Another way to spread division and hate.

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              I find it astonishing that any person believes blacks don't have a reason to be afraid of Whites given the 200 years of sometimes violent oppression of Black by Whites.

              But, to each his own I guess.

              1. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 6 weeks agoin reply to this

                Well, I'd have to guess that it is mostly a combination of ignorance, hatred and/or an assumption that it can never change.

                Those that bother to actually look at the facts, those that put aside their hatred as more damaging to themselves than to others, and those that accept that society changes - they all know better.

                I don't actually know anyone that experienced 200 years of oppression.

  2. My Esoteric profile image86
    My Esotericposted 2 years ago

    Many years ago, my wife's first husband ran a Winn-Dixie.  He hired a lot of black kids from Starke as too many of the white ones would like to go party on the weekends instead of work.  He got a dressing down from his management for employing too many blacks and to put a "new face" on the grocery store.  (Winn-Dixie was known to discriminate back then)

    He was promised to manage a new, much larger store they were building in town.  Two weeks before it opened, they reneged.  Fast-forward to today. Winn-Dixie took over a store in the little rural town I live in.  They have progressed enough to have hired a black manager, but only two other black males (no females) to work in the store.

    Did Winn-Dixie improve over the intervening years?  I hope so.  But anytime sociologists do a study on hiring practices in America they still find lots and lots of discrimination.

    From the EEOC From 1997 to 2018 (the last year data was available), there were 1,889,631 discrimination complaints filed with the EEOC. In 2017, a majority of these complaints were categorized as retaliation (49%), race (34%), disability (32%), or sex (over 30%).

    Black workers face many obstacles in finding work - https://www.americanprogress.org/articl … good-jobs/

    1. Nathanville profile image93
      Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      In the UK its ACAS (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) who deals with race, disability and sex discrimination etc. at work claims.  ACAS is a Government Body, and the service is provided FREE.

      In 2020 there was a 48% rise in the race discrimination claims; mainly due I think to a rise in discrimination because of the current Conservative Government’s anti-immigration policies.

      •    In 2020 there were a total of 3,641 employment tribunal cases in the UK related to race discrimination; about two thirds being woman and one third men.

      •    On average there’s about 1,673 disability discrimination cases in the UK each year, and

      The most common discriminating factor reported in the UK is age discrimination, with 11% of the working population saying that age has been a discriminating factor in the workplace.

      The second most common reason reported for discrimination in the workplace is gender, with more 5.3% of the adult population reporting discrimination due to their gender.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        " mainly due I think to a rise in discrimination because of the current Conservative Government’s anti-immigration policies." - Which is clearly reflected here as well (although we are fighting hard not to have another Conservative gov't)

      2. tsmog profile image84
        tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        Just for curiosity what is race in these stats? I ask because of the earlier post on Pakistani's, In other words are they classified as a race or an ethnicity?

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I can’t find any detailed breakdown for discrimination against different ethnic groups, but generally race refers to all ethnic groups including white British, blacks and other minority ethnic groups such as Asians including Pakistanis etc.

          But I think that it’s fairly safe to assume that the vast majority of race discrimination cases will be related to ethnic minority groups.

          I don’t know if that helps?

    2. Credence2 profile image76
      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you, Esoteric for the most informative article.

      As for the racial wealth gap and the relative difficulty of Black folks to get employment and to acquire good jobs, what else is new?

      The gap has remained persistent over time. It was only during the late 1960s and early 1970s, my coming of age, did the door of opportunity, that previously was hermetically sealed, open a bit and many of us were able to slip through.

      From the article:

      "Making sure that Black workers have the same access to good jobs as white workers does not only require labor market policies but also new and innovative approaches to shrinking the racial wealth gap."

      This speaks to the need for novel proposals, one of those being free or very low cost community colleges and trade schools to help compensate for the theft of relative wealth and the systemic racism making it impossible for them to acquire it spread of over many generations of history in this country. Before whites decide to virtually have a cow, this provision would be available to all with means testing applied at only the highest income levels.

      Only progressive minded politicians have shown the willingness to think outside of the box. Recognizing that we need to invest in ALL of our people if we are, as a nation, to successfully meet the challenges of a future world.

      Fortunately, I did not live in Florida many years ago. Here in east central Florida, the Publix's and Winn Dixie's markets seem well represented with a little bit of everybody. I actually have been to one in Melbourne with a black manager. Things have moved forward on that front and I am most pleased. While I have the standard gripes about most supermarkets, this is not one of them.

      Hope all is going well in your section of Sunshine State.....

  3. My Esoteric profile image86
    My Esotericposted 2 years ago

    More images of institutional racism in America.

    Two boys fighting in a mall, one white, one black.  Police arrive and the police separate the two.  The female officer moves the white boy to a couch to presumably give him aid and comfort before returning to the black teenager being knelt on on the ground by the other male officer as he cuffs him.  She adds her weight to the boys back.

    All of the police are white. This isn't in the deep South where you expect such behavior.  It was in New Jersey.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/16/us/video … index.html

    1. Credence2 profile image76
      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting, I have been resisting the idea that racism is an inherent factor in behavior of whites toward Blacks. Yet, this incident is an example of CRT going beyond "theory".

      While I aware that there are many confrontations of this type, the fact that this incident was videod and the disparate treatment easily seen was so stark that it is not unreasonable to see a pattern behind it all.

      While we get the standard mumbo-jumbo from the authorities and the standard bromides about investigations and such, a video is worth 1000 pictures, as the picture is worth a 1000 words. It appears that under stress flaws in character regarding racist inclinations are readily revealed that I would not be exposed to while getting a cup of sugar from my Anglo neighbor. My theory is that these underlying flaws is behind the massive support Trump continues to enjoy.

      The video speaks of a white high school kid picking on a black junior high student. I have yet to hear an explanation from authorities as to why the black kid in the fight had to be restrained and handcuffed, while the white one, at least as equally guilty, was treated as a mere victim. At a minimum, both should have been handcuffed as there was no indication that one student was any more belligerent than the other.

      It had better be good......

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        "Interesting, I have been resisting the idea that racism is an inherent factor in behavior of whites toward Blacks." - Personally, I would rephrase that slighting by adding the "many" in between "of" and "whites".

        I think studies show clearly that racism and bigotry are Learned traits.  It doesn't matter the colors or religions involved, it only matters whether one group is strong and holds the power and the other group does not.

        We see examples all of the time of young children that are different from one another get along famously.  It is only after the parents have had a chance to infect them with prejudice that they change their behavior.  It has also been shown that leaders have a great influence on whether a group exhibits prejudice against others not like them.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          They are learned traits, in the interest of continued control and power that is, otherwise, unmerited. So, amongst our enlightened society who is training the kids consciously or otherwise to be racist and bigoted? Is this what is behind the fear of the honest teaching of all aspects of American History, good and bad?

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            1) The parents and leaders like Trump
            2) You betcha.

      2. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        I didn't realize there was such a disparity in ages.  No wonder the white guy was getting the upper hand when the racists cops showed up.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I may been in error, here, Esoteric. I have been hearing disputed accounts that the white kid was in high school, while others said that he was in the 8th grade. I will check again

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            OK, although it doesn't really make much difference regarding the horrible behavior of the white police.

          2. IslandBites profile image90
            IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Apparently, the "white" kid (he is supposedly latino) is 15y/o and the other one is 14. Even the 15y/o was surprised he wasnt arrested. After the first kid was arrested, he puts his hands together and asked if he was going to be arrested. 

            “I knew it was wrong, and I knew there was gonna be problems when they did that,” 15-year-old Joey, who was involved in the fight, said. “They didn’t go for me.”

            Tuesday night, he told PIX11 News — with his mother’s permission — that he couldn’t believe he wasn’t also placed in cuffs.

            “I didn’t understand why,” the teen said. “I even offered to get handcuffed as well.”

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              WOW.  Good for the white kid.  It looks l like the cops were racists after all.  What does that say about those taking their side?

              1. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Have any comments been made by the cops in question as to why they did what they did?  Particularly the female cop that "handled" both kids?  There is always "the rest of the story", but I haven't heard it yet.  Just the one side that looks very bad and is being used to "prove" racism by police without ever getting all the information.

                1. My Esoteric profile image86
                  My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  While it would be useful to hear, the video (and the white guys words) speak for themselves.  It would be nice to hear those cops say they are racist, that they picked on only the black kid because they PRESUMED he was the bad guy in this, but you know they won't.

                  1. wilderness profile image93
                    wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    I'm sure you would like to hear that.

                    For myself I would rather hear, in their words, just why they did it.  It is possible, thought highly unlikely based on the video, that there is a valid reason.  It is also possible that their words could give an insight into something very wrong in that police department.  While it obviously isn't to you, it is important to me to get ALL the facts and not just some of them before drawing conclusions.

                    For me the biggest question is just what the female cop, after taking care of one kid, went and knelt on the other.  Just a cop aiding a fellow cop having some trouble or something else?

                2. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  The police are being given the opportunity to explain their side of the story as part of the investigation.

                  I am waiting.....

                  1. wilderness profile image93
                    wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    Are you?  Or have you already drawn conclusions as to the reason for their actions in spite of historically claiming you don't do that?

                  2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    I think this is the very smartest thing that has been said thus far on this thread. Including my comment...  CNN jumped on this story, and at first added the video, and a few words.

                    I am prone to get very mad if I feel race-baiting. I just feel it defeats progress... Yes, we need to point out acts of racism, but we also need to hear all sides at the same time.

                    From further reports, the boy that was put in the chair felt the police handled the black youth unfairly and differently than he was handled.

                    Is our society getting worse far worse? A few years back, I felt we all were on the right path, and progress was being made. Now what?

            2. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Now, we get a version of the story from the participant, himself.

              That quite a revelation IB, such wisdom from babes. Now, if only the adults can start acting like adults.......

    2. Sharlee01 profile image88
      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Are you even kidding! First who through the first and second punch. Second who would not calm down enough to stop fighting with the police?

      CNN is race-baiting disgusting network. This is why we have so much animosity and hate in our society. Media such as CNN stoking a fire, and people like you find it necessary to spread this kind of reporting.

      This was bo more than a fight between two teens, and like I said who threw the first two punches. The white kid stopped fighting when he was slammed into a chair... The black kid decided to fight with the police.

      THat's what I saw in this incident. And ya know what with all that is going on in our society you would think this young man would have not chosen to fight with the police.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        You got to be kidding - who cares who threw the first punch (since you didn't watch the video closely or at all, the black guy batted away a finger that the white guy was angrily poking at him. Then the white guy gave a two-handed shove.

        But, like a typical Conservative, you don't see the issue and why normal people are so outraged.  Obviously, it needs to be explained to you. 

        -  The cops didn't see what started it
        -  The cops broke it up
        -  You can see the white female cop take the white guy to the couch and make sure he is OK.
        - You can see the white male cop jump on the back of the black kid as he tried to stand up and start trying to cuff him'
        - After tending to the white guy (and not cuffing him as her partner was doing to the black kid), you can see the white female cop go kneel on the prone black kid.

        That was not a "slam" by any means (I went back and watched the video several times), you are twisting the facts again. As to the black kid continue to fight, you can clearly see all he was trying to do was stand up when the white male cop SLAMMED him to the ground.

        So, tell me, what do you call a person who concocts a scenario biased against the black kid that is clearly not true.  The cops need to be fired and prosecuted.

        Where our opinions will differ is when the video starts, the white guy was clearly the aggressor.  That said, the black guy did "touch" the white kid first trying to get his hand out of his face. The white guy then reacted very violently shoving the black kid hard.  So, in total, I think the white kid was the aggressor, maybe getting the other guy to act first, a common habit of bullies.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I have heard the explanation of this account from many sources. Change the behavior if you want to be rid of the animosity rather than be content with covering it  up or not revealing it.


          Don't soil the laundry in the first place then you don't have worry about its hanging out.

          The police setting the example within the community of even handedness and impartiality go a long way toward not providing copy for the newspapers.

          If you sat one teen down, why not both of them, or if you handcuff one, why not the other who was participating in the melee to the same extent?

          Where did you get the idea that the black kid was any more belligerent and resisting  than the white kid? That was neither seen nor reported. Where did you get it from? What is this about fighting police, what have you been reading?

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I can tell you where she gets it from, but I won't.  I just found out she doesn't even think the Crimea was invaded by Putin (taking Trump's side again).  She thinks Russian led elections are fair and represent the will of the people, lol.

            Well, with all of the rigging the Trump Republicans are doing with American elections, she will see first hand what a Russian election looks like (and it ain't pretty)

            1. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              I would like you to quote me where said "She thinks Russian led elections are fair and represent the will of the people".  Never said that, ever...

              I certainly did state --- And once again Crimea voted to secede and join Russia. And I am very sure Cred nows this to be a fact. It would be you who just can not accept that fact. And your statement "taking Trump's side again" sounds juvenile.

              It is clear you are being argumentive.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                It was implied by your defense of the results of the election Putin held in Crimea.  In another forum, you basically said that because a supposed "overwhelming" majority of Crimean's voted for the annexation (or what ever they voted for) then that justified Putin invading Ukraine.  What else am I to think.  You didn't even call that election a sham - which it was.

    3. emge profile image78
      emgeposted 2 years ago

      Racism is ingrained in America and it will never go away I have spent lots of time there and  observed it first hand. Sadly the Christian Church is a accomplice in this ; I won't say anything more.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        That IS, unfortunately, very true.  I will point out, however, what you claim about Christians applies only to conservative Christians, just as it applies to conservative Muslims, conservative Hindus, conservative (any other religion).  Do you see a pattern hear?

      2. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        The so-called Christian church has been racism's leader and fomenters. What do you think that Christian Right uses as fuel for its Movement, today?

    4. emge profile image78
      emgeposted 2 years ago

      The crimea election was fair and square I don't know why people keep talking about it. Elections in Russia are as good or as bad as America, the only difference is that there is a charismatic leader like Putin in Russia while America has a fumbling old man as the leader

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        I am sorry, Emge, Western democracies do not murder and jail the opposition so that there is only one choice.  Western democracies do not murder protesters and rioters.  Western democracies are not supposed to jail non-violent protesters (yet some of our conservative cops do anyway).

        All of those things are true in Russia and anyplace it controls.  I don't know what it is like in your country, maybe those are the norm there as well as Russia. 

        While Putin may be more charismatic and stronger than Biden, he is also a murdering dictator (which it seems like you admire) which Biden is not.  Biden is just a good leader with the right ideas for our country.

      2. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        I always prefer a "weak" democratically elected leader over a "strong" tyrannical one.

        But, again, that's just me.

    5. emge profile image78
      emgeposted 2 years ago

      One of my veteran friends of the US  was always of the view that the black is discriminated against and he was loud and clear on it but sadly when his daughter said she was going to marry a coloured Afro American he lost his shirt and threatened to shoot the boy dead.

      1. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        That is sad, but not unsurprising.  Based on the support Trump has, I would estimate at least 30% of Americans feel the same way.

      2. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        That's speaks to the wishy-washy nature behind so much Anglo thinking in America, today.

        They will "parrot" what they really don't believe. That ready duplicitous nature has always confused me.

    6. My Esoteric profile image86
      My Esotericposted 2 years ago

      Eight days later, then-President Lyndon B. Johnson addressed a televised joint session of Congress and beseeched lawmakers to pass expansive legislation to prohibit racial discrimination in voting.

      And Conservatives have been fighting to reverse that ever since! With the Robert's Court and the Trump Republicans, it has just picked up steam.

      https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02 … -timeline/

    7. emge profile image78
      emgeposted 2 years ago

      I agree with Sharlee a woman's health is very important and it must be looked at from that perspective.

    8. My Esoteric profile image86
      My Esotericposted 2 years ago

      Another example of Institutional Racism in America

      https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/20/us/doj-b … index.html

      1. wilderness profile image93
        wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

        Sure sounds like discrimination to me.  Either that or a very large failure to do the job right - that the second appraisal, by a different appraiser, came up with a different value would tend to indicate that one or the other is incompetent in their job.

        But "institutional Racism"?  It would have to be shown that such events are common and spread all over the country, not just one appraiser looking at one house.  Possible, of course, but the link gives no statistics or proof of that.  Just that housing values in black neighborhoods are lower than that in white neighborhoods, which has zero to do with a discriminatory appraisal.

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          The thing is, study after study show that it is common (let alone the massive amount of anecdotal evidence you see reported every week)

          Apparently the suit itself contains sufficient data to get DOJ interested.

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, there are stories.  But some of them don't make sense.  For instance, the link within the link cries out that houses in black neighborhoods are appraised for less than those in white neighborhoods. 

            Setting aside entirely that the objective of an appraisal isn't to give a false value to homes of black people; it is to give an accurate picture of what similar homes in that same neighborhood and setting are selling for. 

            And then we have the anecdotal evidence, but you know as well as I do what that is worth.  Every home appraised for less than expected will be put down to racism...without any proof whatsoever.

            So...maybe there is systemic racism and discrimination via home appraisals, and maybe not.  Your link, and your story, do not show it to be so.  The story doesn't even prove the single case of discrimination that was taken to court, not yet. 

            I would actually be more inclined to assign racism to the lending institution, because it has been my experience that appraisals nearly always come in a little over what is required for the loan in question.  Given that, and historic evidence of lending bias, it seems more reasonable than to think the appraiser was at fault.

            1. IslandBites profile image90
              IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this
              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks Island. Those should change Wilderness' mind - NOT. He simply does not accept ANY evidence that shows his reality is wrong.

            2. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Based upon linked that IslandBites so kindly provided we can begin to put a scale on the problem as being more than just that of a single couple. This was an egregious example which will require attention along with  a remedy provided.

              The only thing thing that I have established in that properties in minority owned neighborhoods tend to be underappraised in relation to contract price more frequently. I will not go far as suggesting a conspiracy as even though a relatively large sample size of appraisers have been sampled, the differences underappraising between white and minority appraised properties have not been terribly significant. Still, when multiplied over millions of dollars and thousands of people, wealth is being siphoned and stolen.

              I agree with you about the culpability of lending institutions as playing more than a small role regarding this problem. There has been far more substantiated evidence of systemic racism when it came to lending practices.

              Withou further study, it is difficult for a layman such as myself to come to a definitive solution, but the sheer temerity involved regarding stealing wealth from this couple would have me believing that I smell a rat.

            3. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              LOL, keep trying Wilderness

      2. Sharlee01 profile image88
        Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        If this couple was discriminated against by a white home appraiser, the evaluation and second evaluation, plus the going price of homes in their area, should show a clear-cut case.  Both evaluations can be compared to many other comparative homes in that specific area with similar attributes.

        It sounds as if the couple did renovations to make their home more valuable. This should be an interesting case to follow. I don't think I will jump to any conclusion as of yet.

        They very well could have been discriminated against... Only time will tell.

        However, is this not another CNN article that calls attention to the discrimination that might (the key might) not have occurred? It appears the DOJ has taken an interest, and should due to having a Civil Rights Division to combat housing discrimination. I am sure they will have a long look at this lawsuit, and get justice for this couple if they have been discriminated against.

        CNN promotes this kind of story, they jump at anything that could be a racist act without any real proof it did... IMO these story's promote racial tension unnecessarily.   I think if this couple proves their case, it is very much newsworthy.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          The question is Sharlee, there has to be a reason why there is so great a difference in the appraisal price simply because a white was shown to be a homeowner rather than the black couple. It is a big story and it needs to be big to put everyone on notice that discrimination in housing is against the law and that those identified as perpetrators will be held accountable.
          Let us see how FHA and DOJ read all of this? It does not hurt to be made aware that a case is in the making.

          The issue for me is, if you clean it up rather than just cover it up, I won't need to bring it up.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Credence, do you have any clue as to why Sharlee likes to sweep unpleasant (to Conservatives) things under the rug?  Imagine, blaming CNN for just doing their job and presenting news to people of America (and the world).

          2. Sharlee01 profile image88
            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I can see your point. But, why not report cases that have been proven to be discrimination, not allegations of discrimination?  It is very possible we won't ever even hear the outcome of this couple's case unless discrimination was proven, and they justly win their case.  Some people sink their teeth into "if comes" and have quickly jumped to the conclusion that this appraiser, in this case, was discriminating against this couple. Do we know this to be true as of yet?  The DOJ has the case, and should totally investigate this couples' claims. This is why we need a Civil Rights Division to investigate discrimination.  Right now this couple has claimed they were discriminated against ---  Is there no more innocent until proven guilty?

            I am not in any respect saying the media should not report discrimination. Just wish they would report it after the act has been proven to be factual, not just an allegation.

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              But, everything we hear on the news is based on allegations and that is fine as long as they report it as allegations and not fact. All the stuff about either Trump or Biden has not ended with convictions and indictments, these men/he or she is just being accused at this point. That is all, and that is news in itself.

              There is an ongoing law suit by black franchise owners against MC Donald's for alleged discriminatory management practices. why should this be not presented as news until a final decision comes down? We don't employ this attitude for anything else, if we did the news channels would go out of business.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                "d that is fine as long as they report it as allegations and not fact." - And that is the difference between MSN and Right-wing propaganda outlets. MSN ALMOST (in case Wilderness or Sharlee want to nitpick) always say words to the effect of "alleged".  Even on the opinion pieces I read and listen to.  That is not often the case with Right-wing propaganda.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                  Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  This conversation is about a couple that alleges they were discriminated against. The keyword thus far is alleged...   The article was from CNN. This couple's claim is alleged, and at this point being investigated.

                  It is not nitpicking to point out this complaint is an obligation, because at this point that's what it is. I am not programmed to believe allegations, as you seem to be.   The allegation is a powerful power, not to be ignored... It denotes facts that have not been presented as of yet. I have no need for allegations, I like facts. IMO allegations muddle the mind.

                  CNN and MSN are the worst perpetrators of this kind of unprofessional reporting.

                  "al·le·ga·tion
                  /ˌaləˈɡāSH(ə)n/
                  Learn to pronounce
                  noun
                  a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.

                  1. Credence2 profile image76
                    Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    It is up to viewer, Sharlee, to discern the difference between an allegation and a fait accompli

                    The presence of an "allegation" is a fact in itself. That makes it newsworthy. We live in world full of claims and assertions, you decide just how much credibility one way or the other you would assign to it, just as other viewers have option to do for themselves.

                    They ALL do it, Fox News included, it is just that you find it more palatable because they present from a conservative point of view.

              2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Cred, you have made a great point, and it really rings a bell... Yes, the media does at nauseam report allegations about Trump, Biden, and has this kind of reporting not aided in severely dividing the citizens of this country?  This kind of news reporting has only gotten worse over the years, and now, in my view has become caustic. 

                The example you have used in regard to the black franchise owners against MC Donald's is news, it is in court, it is ongoing. Very much worthy of reporting at every juncture... You may not be understanding my point.  The couple that filed the lawsuit has every right to do so, and they deserve to be heard in court and receive justice. But, what if after an investigation it does not merit discrimination?  Lots of "what if's... 

                However, have many that read the CNN article walk away with the very thought --- This couple was discriminated against.

                Does this kind of reporting help with systemic racism or does it fuel it without cause? 

                And in my view to address your last thought here --- we should employ this attitude for all situations. Should we care about supporting networks that report more or less what one could call gossip? 

                This kind of news reporting can do more harm than good in my view. Many hang on allegations that never come to fruition,  yet the anger the vitriol stays with them, and only builds with the next unproven allegation.

                In my opinion, we now have a certain part of our society that craves sensationalism and could care little about truth in journalism. If it feeds their narrative, they are happy to be satisfied with allegations. Guilty until proven innocent.  Punished without cause...

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  "But, what if after an investigation it does not merit discrimination?  Lots of "what if's.."
                  -----
                  Then I would say, report that and explain why the investigators came to their conclusion.
                  ------
                  "However, have many that read the CNN article walk away with the very thought --- This couple was discriminated against"

                  That is not what the article said, you should not walk away with something from an article convinced about something that was not said.
                  ---------
                  People are informed that the allegation was just that with the result being that the allegation was not substantiated.

                  I once lived in a world where abuses, alleged and factual, were never brought out to see the light of day from any mainstream source except from rather obscure ethnic publications. I get perturbed over dishonesty and concealment, first and foremost, I will always prefer candor, all information provided and I will sort out what is the gravity of the cases whether alleged or factual.

                  It is up to people, in a democracy with a free press, to use their discretion and judgement over the vast amount of information available, because the alternative to this is less than attractive.

                  I would not think that the filing of a law suit in a case where so much money is involved as mere gossip. The only real viable alternative is to switch your TV to the off position.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    "I once lived in a world where abuses, alleged and factual, were never brought out to see the light of day from any mainstream source except from rather obscure ethnic publications. " - And Conservatives want to return to that by complaining the MSM exposes too many bad things.

                    Or tune your TV to Fox or other Right-wing propaganda outlets who suppress such news.

                    1. Credence2 profile image76
                      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      Ask conservatives how they would feel if all the "juicy" unsubstantiated allegations about Biden in the news wereto be withheld until the "all the actual returns were in"

                      Could I say that Fox exposes too many bad things?

    9. emge profile image78
      emgeposted 2 years ago

      I've been going through this discussion from the beginning. Everybody agrees that racism is bad, I also say so but what people are missing from the entire point is the psychosis of the white man. I am talking of the majority who will not accept a black as part of the family in other words there will be no social intercourse and there is none in any case except for an odd case here and there. The fact is the black-white divide is insurmountable. it is not physical but it is emotional and will never go away. Not for another hundred years; after all it has been there for the last 300 years. I have already mentioned the case of my veteran friend and his reaction to a black son-in-law. No point in repeating it again here but I do not see how the racial divide will ever go away in America and mind you it is only against the black and not against so many others like Indians who have proliferated in the USA.

      1. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

        So, emge, here is the $64,000.00 dollar question, what is the source of the psychosis and why does a group go to so much trouble for so long to torment a ethnic minority that has never been a threat to Them? Why would someone risk detection only to take something of value from someone they do not even know, was it so crucial? I refer to the appraisal issue.

        I think that much of the worse of it is behind us. It now takes a form that is more sophisticated, designed for the specific purpose of not being readily detectable as such.

        While your example about the black son and law was one case, I am inundated with mixed couples and their children every time I go to the market. Did not see so much of this just 20 years ago.

        These matters people will yield on before confronting the real issues of the distribution of wealth and power in America. The fear of losing an advantage toward that end is where the line in the sand is being drawn by the current dominant culture. This is why the stuff that we all thought we had relegated to the attic or the basement is now being brought to the kitchen table and served as the main course.

        Racism and race related strife is part of American life, some groups has had it applied to them more intensely than others. It is as old as the Republic, varying groups have taken their turn: Irish,  Southern Europeans, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, indigenous people, hispanics (not Ricky Ricardo, as he passed for white, although Cuban), Blacks.

        The changes in demographics combined with time will make it easier to soften the grip regarding retention of advantageous wealth and corresponding power by the dominant culture when they are no longer dominant. For all this to happen, assuming we do not destroy ourselves and planet in the interim, we may be looking toward( based on our present course) the end of this century. Just a guesstimate....

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I would also like to point out that racism, bigotry, etc is not limited to JUST the whites.  It exists where ever there is a dominate culture.  Sunni vs Shia; one black tribe vs another black tribe; whatever is going on in Somali and Eritrea; Christians vs Jews; Arab vs Jews; hell, almost anybody vs the Jews; the Jews vs the Arabs. and the list goes on and on.

          I am sorry to say, Credence, history is not on your side regarding the equity thing.  Inequity today is close to what it was back in the Roaring 20s, when it was at an all time American high.  It took a major depression and a world war to bring it back to some kind of normalcy.  I hope it doesn't take that again.

          I would recommend Capitalism in the 21st Century by Thomas Piketty if you are into self-flagellation. It is very long, but to someone interested in economics and inequality, it is worth the read.

          1. Credence2 profile image76
            Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I hear you, Esoteric. With rare exception such as the "untouchables" in India for example, the American experience with this topic is an egregious one. One notes that that does not have to be a given in an ethnic and culturally diversified society. Arthur says, that while the racism problem exists in Britain it has never descended to the levels of sadism that has been part of the American experience.

            No, it is not limited to whites, it is just that America is the one that says that it is "exceptional", yet it gets a major failing grade in this area.

            Yes, indeed, we were rescued from the income inequity and labor exploitation by "the crash", FDR, and World War II. I might be overly optimistic in thinking that a rational society would come to its senses and acknowledge that the current trend of more wealth in fewer hands threaten both democracy and capitalism, they to be replaced with alternatives, going backwards, and considerably lower on the evolutionary scale of economic and political systems.

            Maybe I watch too many cartoons, much like "The Jetsons", a feeling that even in a future world of flying cars, our social-political structure would fundamentally remain the same.

            Racism is a byproduct of economic inequity and those that seek to maintain it, the 1 percent. What better way for them to divert attention from themselves and their activities then to have the people believe that immigrants and minority groups are keep those in the "doublewides" from getting their share of prosperity they deserve. It is a dangling carrot that none of them were ever intended to attain to. Trump and his gold plated allies are part of all of that. The resentment of the masses that feed on Trump and Trumpism is based upon this intended misdirection.

            Thanks for the tip, I will check out your recommended title.

      2. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        A rare day in Southern America - white men found guilty of Hate Crimes. It took continuous fighting by the victim's mother to get the the murder trial, after the city DA tried to cover it up,  and then to a federal hate crimes trial.

        THAT is why you keep things in the news and not try to hide bad news.

        https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/ahmaud … index.html

        1. IslandBites profile image90
          IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Im glad the judge rejected the plea deal.

      3. MG Singh profile image70
        MG Singhposted 2 years ago

        I agree with what you're stating but I have a different point. Punishing one or two white men for crimes against black is really not the solution. My point is how is the mindset going to change?  and that is not likely at all. How will you take away the incident about my veteran  American friend which I've recounted earlier and people have read about it? How will you change the mindset against the black; that's not going to happen, not for another hundred years and it's already lasted for 300 years.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          While it may not be a solution, it is a damned good start.

          No one can change anyone else's thoughts but I can control your behavior. With the ubiquitous videos and cell cameras, the errors can be revealed.

          Between criminal prosecutions and civil suits being increased as a result, some folks just might begin to get the message. The threats of prosecutions and litigation will also serve as a deterrent for many who believe that they can act inappropriately in this matter with impunity.

          I can't be concerned with what you think, but I can certainly have a remedy if those thoughts are translated into action.

          The troublemakers can choose to spend time behind bars or have every nickel ciphoned from them....

      4. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        Well, we knew it was coming. Another assault rifle on the street, another mass shooting. This one is an 18-year old while supremist driving three hours to a Buffalo, NY grocery store where he killed 10 blacks and wounded 3 more.

        So long as we make sure anyone who wants an assault rifle can get an assault rifle, this will never stop.

        https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/buffal … index.html

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Here we go again.

          The American Right is a totally infected entity, and you cannot be surprised when a chancre erupts every now and then.

          They will have excuse for it due to mental illness and such, don't they always?  Yet, seemed like a targeted attack with deliberate goals, thus far.

          We will see how the rest of the story unfolds. There is also the attack on Asian women Dallas that had been committed by a racially motivated gunman, fortunately no fatalities here.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image88
            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            "24 People Shot Over Weekend in Chicago, Including 7 in Mass Shooting Sunday"  https://news.wttw.com/2022/03/14/24-peo … ing-sunday

            What makes these murders any better than the nut job that shoot people today in Buffalo?  Where these murders not all killers?

            Chicago City data shows at least 446 people have been shot and 102 people have been killed in Chicago thus far in 2022. How many were black, how many white?  How many of these crimes were black on black or white on white?

            Why have we not been made aware of these outrageous crime stats?

            Oh forgot -- this story will promote hate, race-bait, and maybe even cause some riots. 

            I would say those that can turn away from outrageous ongoing crime in Blue cities a bit more "totally infected":... 

            It is most likely a fact this 18-year-old had hate in his heart, just like the thugs that kill in our major cities. How does one put a weight to hate to murder?

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Deleted

              1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                I never look the other way when it comes to murder...  I find all killers equal, they took another's life whether it be a white man shooting into a black crowd or a black man shooting into a black crowd, sometimes killing children.  Just wired that way. Why not the outrage about the increase in crime, all crime, all murders?  If a man picks up a gun and does drive-by, was he not intending to kill? Was there not the same hate as a white man that heads out to kill blacks? Is it I different hate? Is the results not the death of innocent people? 

                I look at anyone that sets out to purposely kill a murderer.  I feel it is a phenomenon that some black people can excuse black-on-black murder.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  There is nothing unreasonable about your point of view.

                  Crime is crime as you say, and n one of us are excusing it in our most crime infested areas. But, Bonnie and Clyde is one thing and Adolf Hitler yet, another. Being murdered at random by a racist or religious zealot solely because of skin color or religion is always a damn site lower. That, too, is recognized and is enshrined in Federal Law. Is it not there for a reason?

                2. My Esoteric profile image86
                  My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Credence, as a right-winger, she will never understand it. As she said, she is not wired that way.

            2. IslandBites profile image90
              IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Disgusting.

              You had to post a March news article to do what? Your points are absurd. Who said those murders (btw, 24 people shot, not even half dead- not that is a good thing anyway) are better or that the shooters were not killers?

              Also, do you know if those were left-leaning killers? democrats? or even blacks? (yes, because that was the real implication).

              But we do know this white killer did this not just because he is a criminal. It wasnt a drug related crime, it wasnt a crime of passion, it wasnt a debt related crime, and so on. It was a racially motivated crime. He livestreamed the mass shooting. He left a manifesto. There are forums were he shared with like-minded racists, white supremacists.

              Why the need to jump? SMH

              1. IslandBites profile image90
                IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                The man who allegedly shot 10 people dead and injured three more at a Buffalo, New York, supermarket Saturday likely planned out his racially motivated attack for months, authorities said Sunday.

                Police pointed to the roughly 180-page manifesto the alleged shooter, 18-year-old Payton Gendron, posted before going on his rampage. The rambling text included a detailed plan of his assault on the Tops Friendly Market, which he drove to from several counties away, according to police.

                Gendron identified himself as a white supremacist in his manifesto, detailing at length his fears that white people are being replaced by other races.

                https://www.foxnews.com/us/buffalo-gend … -manifesto

              2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                OH, and these below-mentioned crimes are fine. No problem,  they were not racially motavated, so no biggie?

                "But we do know this white killer did this not just because he is a criminal. It wasnt a drug related crime, it wasnt a crime of passion, it wasnt a debt related crime, and so on. It was a racially motivated crime. He livestreamed the mass shooting. He left a manifesto. There are forums were he shared with like-minded racists, white supremacists."

                My point --- the media do not point out race until they feel it is a hate crime... I believe all crimes where someone picks up a weapon and kills is a hate crime.   Just funny that way.

                And it matters little to me if it was a nut job that hates blacks or a black man that hates another black person...   Murder was committed period, we have people dead.

                In regards to all the types of murder that are acceptable to you --  the types of murders that that media rarely reports race or even why the crime was committed. I find these murders horrendous, I find a society that so easily accepts them as something "different" disgusting.    Disgusting?   Right back at you, and add hypocritical.

                Thus far this is what I know as factual  --- 

                May 15, 2022 --   The US Department of Justice is investigating the mass shooting "as a hate crime and an act of racially-motivated violent extremism," according to a statement from US Attorney General Merrick Garland
                .
                "The Justice Department is committed to conducting a thorough and expeditious investigation into this shooting and to seeking justice for these innocent victims," the statement said.

                Maybe it would just be smarter to wait and see what the FBI and DOJ report.

                1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
                  Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  "Yet media did in the Buffalo report, within 19 minutes of the crime point out the race of the shooter, and victims.."

                  Speaking just in terms of this case,  I feel it was pointed out by media due to the fact it was quickly identified as a hate crime. He was live streaming his rampage onto his Twitch account which was immediately identified for its racist content and affiliations.  This kid didn't look like he was trying to hide anything in terms of his radical beliefs. He had postings as well as floated plans across various sites.

                2. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Sharlee, there are homicides all across the nation, much facilitated by the proliferations of firearms. If it is not the Hatfields and McCoys in the red states, it is the South Central LA or Bronx in urban area blue.

                  Mass shootings bring out mass media, Columbine and other school shootings, the killer of children in Connecticut, the nuts in Las Vegas and Orlando. They were not necessarily race related. We all know that. So, do you expect a race based massacre like occurred at the synagogue, or Walmart or a church to be just ignored or just be blended into thousands of smaller scale gun related homicides,  while numerous, not of the same extent or magnitude? How often are massacres, and this qualifies as one, expected to be ignored by the press?

                  Sorry, only Right winger have the ideological credentials to commit such atrocities, being perfectly sane, while filled with race bigotry.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    I in no way feel that these race crimes not be covered or not stand out as a hate crimes in no respect.  I have pointed out I feel all murders are a problem in our society.   Do we not need to address our lack of caring about the increase in crime? what does this say about our society.? We naturally become very concerned with hate crimes when they occur. However, do we really care about crime itself? 

                    Yes, how often does such a massacre occur? On the other hand, how often does murder occur? The numbers are outrageous.

                    Should we be outraged at crime in general? Are we?

                    Yes, we should never see such a hate crime. Or should we be so accepting of all the murders in our society?

                    This kind of acceptance, In my view, says so much about our society.

                    I must ask --- Where did you feel my comment showed race bigotry?

                    1. Credence2 profile image76
                      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      None of your comment had racial bigotry. I am not speaking of you specifically, it is just that the vast majority of assaults of this nature come from the political right end of the spectrum. There is no "bothsidesdo it" analogy.

                      Crime has been with us since the founding, nothing new there. No one is accepting of crime, but in America it is reality just like the sunrise.

                      Violence fomented solely due to someone being of another race is worse than violence resulting from other crimes, in my opinion.

                      1. wilderness profile image93
                        wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        "No one is accepting of crime, but in America it is reality just like the sunrise."

                        Sadly, I have to disagree here.  Crime in America is accepted on a daily basis, and is too often not only condoned but cheered.

                        One has only to look at the riots a couple of years ago, with virtually no response.  One has only to look at illegal aliens entering the country by the millions, without response from America.  One has only to look at gang slayings, with the gang members cheering every death.  Illegal drug use is rampant...so we have cities providing those same drugs, "safe places" for it's use, needles, etc.  One has only to look at the "wrist slapping" given young criminals starting their career to understand that if we cared we would make an effort to stop it rather than tacitly approving with our lack of concern.

                        I do agree than racial violence is worse than some other crimes though.  Solely because of the tremendous fight we have had over the years to eliminate such racism, but because of a very real fear it will rise again it is presumed (and is) worse.

                      2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                        Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        "Violence fomented solely due to someone being of another race is worse than violence resulting from other crimes, in my opinion."

                        This is true in many ways. But I was trying to point out it seems our society has become a too compartmentalized crime of murder. We seem very much to brush off a drive-by where several were killed or someone killed in their home during a break-in.   

                        Are we become conditioned to only care about what society now dictates us to be upset about?

                        I am in no way trying to tale away from a hate crime sure as what occurred yesterday. Just pointing out an oddity in our present society.

                3. IslandBites profile image90
                  IslandBitesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  So triggered.

                  Suure. Whatever you say, lady.


                  Maybe it would just be smarter to wait and see what the FBI and DOJ report.

                  This part is hilarious.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    My point was very clear.  As was yours.

            3. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              There you go again minimizing hate crimes.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                I won't have you or anyone else here saying I am minimizing this crime.  You posted your first comment (the one I wilderness, and I responded to) within minutes after the crime was reported. You claimed it was the work of a white supremacist, did you not? 

                I pointed it was misinformation... At that point it was.

                I did not in any respect minimize the crime. In fact, I went on to vilify all murder in a following post...

                You see I look at the murder of any kind horrendous. I am not wired to look at one murder differently than another. White on white, black on black, and so on... Hope this clears that up.

                I am just as disturbed when I hear about weekend murders in Chicago, where children are killed. I don't politicize murder as many do these days.

                I find any sicko murderer black or white equally as loathsome.

                Just don't step up on a bandwagon to stream about one over the other. I will leave that up to others.

                Tell a black mom that lost he child in a drive-by that this Buffalo white man was far worse than the thug that killed her child.

                1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
                  Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  You are right, both are equally appalling. The shooters in each have different motivations.  Can we address these motives as a society?  We don't seem to be doing a great job.  Also, hate crime seem to be on the rise. It is  undeniable that certain media and online communities are stoking them.  We need to start attacking the roots of violence.  But what will happen instead? People, as usual,  will prefer to fight over making it a red problem or a blue problem. Far too many will be satisfied with that. I don't know why people today are more interested in the fight over right or wrong than they are in actual solutions to the problem?

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    We are getting nowhere due to a media that is hell-bent on making problems and keeping the temperature high.

                    The roots of violence are not even addressed, and the ideology is hey look at this crime it's race-related, but ignore the children that are being killed due to drive-bys. 

                    Many get mad at me for not jumping in and screaming --- ANOTHER WHITE SUPREMACISTS killed black people!

                    Time for more to say - Hey we have out-of-control crime and murders in our large cities every week! In my opinion, one killing does not win out over another.

                    Last year -  Total police killed in Line of Duty Deaths: 617 2021
                    2022 --   Total Line of Duty Deaths: 105

                    Chicago reached at least 800 homicides in 2021, a level not seen in 25 years

                    Major Crimes Up 38% in NYC So Far This Year, NYPD Says

                    780 killed in homicides in LA  2021

                    I could go on and on

                    WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?

        2. Sharlee01 profile image88
          Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          You have posted misinformation

          I have read all the lengthy articles CNN has posted thus far. I see no mention of the word "white supremacists".and  it has been reported the assailant used a rifle, not an adult weapon.

          Do you feel it prudent to make such an allegation, when no one in law enforcement has ?

          And as long as people spread misinformation, we will never know who or what words we can trust.

          Hate is easy to cultivate with misinformation. I think we could wait and see what the FBI and Homeland Security report in regard to if this man identified as a white supremacist.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Then you clearly missed something and should become more informed.  Here, let me help. (BTW, the FBI uncharacteristically already came out and suggested this was a hate crime)

            https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mass-shoot … permarket/

            https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/buffalo-s … manifesto/

            1. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Please note the date and time of the article you posted. In that given article there was no mention of the word "white supremacists". My comment was posted in regard to that article. I did not miss anything, your post was posted within minutes of the report. You were jumping the gun in my view.

              I see that as of late last night and this morning the man is being accused of being a white supremacist, and he referred to himself as such.

              I see this morning reputable sources are using the term, and that the DOJ is looking at this crime as a hate crime.

              Last night my point was that CNN jumped out front within 19 minutes and reported the crime listing the are of the shooter and the victims.

              I found them too quick to point to race as the motive. AS it turns out it appears, and I do use the term appears to be racially motivated due to the racially charged social media accounts this man posted.

              The DOJ is investigating the crime, and I am sure will offer a report on this crime.

              1. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                I Had my hypothesis in 10 minutes, the standards and circumstances that I already knew were involved in this case made it more than a just possibility that a  virulent rightwinger was to blame for this crime.

                I just waited for the preponderance of media outlets to confirm what I had already suspected

                Seems that you are more concerned about the messenger over the message?

                1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                  Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I put two and two together quickly too.

                  I too wanted to wait to see a bit more reporting before using words like white supremacist, and what form of a gun was used.

                  My initial post was to ECO 20 minutes after the shootings occurred.

                  Yes, 20 minutes in I was concerned over the messenger. You certainly as you said did not jump the gun. I really object to so quickly condemning anyone before we learn some facts.

                  The media is very good about spreading misinformation, and 20 minutes in... 

                  This morning I have gleaned more information. It is being labeled a hate crime by a self-proclaimed white supremacist.

                  My feelings are with many Americans - I am upset and horrified once again we have such a racially motivated crime.

                2. My Esoteric profile image86
                  My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I already knew yesterday evening because the reporting I listened to going to and from Taco Bell last night covered all of the things Sharlee now admits are true but slammed me when I reported it on this thread.

                  1. there was a manifesto
                  2. he said he was a white supremacist
                  3. the FBI and other law enforcement was already surmising this was a hate crime
                  4. that the weapon was an assault weapon (new was that he scratched the N-word on the rifle)

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    Could you offer a quote from the article you posted 19 minutes after the shooting that named the shooter to quote your comment --- White supremacist, and that he used an "automatic rifle"?

                    I was just pointing out misinformation.  I did not slam you I pointed out at that point you posted misinformation.

                    1. My Esoteric profile image86
                      My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      As I said, I LISTENED to CNN reporting on it, so no, I can't give you a quote.  They also didn't release his name at the time, which is why I didn't report that either.

                      None of what I put out was "misinformation".  As you have since admitted, it was correct information.

                      Saying untruthfully that I put out misinformation IS slamming me, don't you think.

        3. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          After hearing on TV that he used a "rifle" I went looking.  Reading through an even dozen reports, not a single one mentioned your fake "assault rifle".  Not even your link did; for all it had to say it could have been a squirt gun filled with nerve gas.

          I did get a giggle out of the "military style execution" from the governor, though.  I was unaware the military carried out executions at grocery stores, let alone that there is a specific style for such a thing.

          Are you just making up the assault rifle in order to scare people or were there other reports that actually DID report on what gun was used?

          Nor was I able to find anything saying 10 blacks were killed, with 3 more wounded.  The closest thing I found was 13 victims, 10 dead, 11 were black, two were white.  Did you make that one up, too, or did you find other information than your link?

          1. Sharlee01 profile image88
            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            "Nor was I able to find anything saying 10 blacks were killed, with 3 more wounded.  The closest thing I found was 13 victims, 10 dead, 11 were black, two were white.  Did you make that one up, too, or did you find other information than your link?"

            You will find this within 19 minutes after the shooting these ambulance chasers had to make it racial. I have no idea if that is true. But CNN  race baits, such a vile rag.

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Boy, are you naïve.

              BTW, you seem to hate any news outlet that reports truths you don't like.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                I do find CNN a very poor news outlet. And last night confirms my feelings.
                I would prefer a well-investigated report over a race-baiting report. All involved deserved more.

          2. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Like I suggested to Sharlee, you need to read more than right-wing propaganda.

            Here is picture for you.  It was easy to find.

            https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 79200.html

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Perhaps you should simply learn to read instead of making things up.  There is absolutely no mention of an assault rifle in this link, either.  Apparently you just made it up, just as the news crew did when they said it was racial.

              While both are likely true, that is not a reason to claim they are until facts are known.  Facts, not assumptions that fit your personal bias.

              This time, though, the link does make a lie out of your statement that 10 blacks were killed and 3 more wounded.   Of the 13 victims, only 11 were blacks.

              1. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                "Stephen Belongia, special agent in charge of the FBI's Buffalo Field Office, said the case is being considered a hate crime and a case of racially motivated violent extremism."

                I dunno, Wilderness, seems more like fact than bias to me, spin is not going to make it for you this time.
                ------
                "This time, though, the link does make a lie out of your statement that 10 blacks were killed and 3 more wounded.   Of the 13 victims, only 11 were blacks"

                Out of 13 victims ONLY 11 were blacks, 10 of those were killed an another wounded. So, what is your point? 6 and half a dozen are the same.

                This story is just as it presented, why are you questioning authorities in this matter?

                1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                  Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Cred,  we both were not in any respect disputing what kind of crime this was, it certainly appeared almost immediately to be a hate crime. We were pointing out that ECO did not have his facts straight. The article, he posted there was written 19 minutes after the crime was committed. The article was misquoted by ECO, he misquoted what kind of gun was used, and he made the claim the shooter was a white supremacist.

                  I was just saying to ECO "cool your jets".

                  After all, this is how misinformation spreads. In this case, it works out the man appears to have referred to himself as a WS, and his social media makes it clear he is. But we did not know this 19 minutes after the shooting.

                  1. Credence2 profile image76
                    Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    True, the guy confessed being a white supremacist but from his MO and approach, I did not really need to wait for him to say so to know that that was what he was.

                    1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      I respect your thoughts and see where you're coming from.

              2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                That article was posted this morning. They took time to at least do some leg work. Most news outlets have taken the time to put together what facts are known so far. And the DOJ is investigating the crime as a hate crime. They put out a statement this morning.

                In my view, CNN got the jump on dishing up a hate crime, with little information 20 minutes after the crime was committed. And people wonder why we have so much hate and division.

                "Glad Im a not them"

            2. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Hold up -- the article you posted was posted this morning...  So back up... We both were commenting on your comment that was made within minutes of the shooting.

              Again making a merger attempt to insult another user. Do you ever stop?

      5. emge profile image78
        emgeposted 2 years ago

        The answer is not politics and whether or not Republicans are more racist than others. it is a more deep-rooted problem that the white man has not accepted the black as an equal though slavery was abolished 150 years back. America somehow has not gotten out of its iconoclast ideas of race and color. You may make any number of laws but unless the concepts and ideas change racism in all its forms will continue in America. In that respect, America is not the land of milk and Honey.

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          You say that is if all other nations have. News Flash, they haven't.

          In America, it happens to be white racism against, well most anybody not white.

          In Iraq, it is Shi'as against anybody one Shi'a.

          In India, it is the highest class against everybody else.

          In Africa, it is the predominate black subgroup against other minority black subgroups.

          In Arab countries, it is Arab's against Jews.

          In Israel, it is Jews against Muslims.

          America has never been the land of milk and honey, far from it. (oops, I live in Florida and may have just broken a critical race theory law)  What sets us apart from many other nations, however, is we strive to be.

          To the liberals, including the ones that created America, the ideal of "all men (update that to people) are equal" and have a right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness is something we want to achieve.

          We have gotten along way toward that goal in spite of conservatives trying to reverse course like they are today.

          1. GA Anderson profile image89
            GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Well damn. ★  ★ ★ ★ (or 41/2 if I knew how to do a half-star)

            It could have been 5 stars without the unnecessary and distracting "conservative" jab at the very end.

            GA

          2. Credence2 profile image76
            Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            This is a true statement, but I should not expect less from America, vaunting  itself as the world's greatest democracy. Sort of hard to criticize others over human rights violations, a sty, while you have a rafter in your own eye. But, I give America that much credit for attempting to resolve a problem that stubbornly seems beyond solution. The forces of the Right only desires to take this progress back and as such, they must be brought to heel.

        2. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          It never can be eradicated completely, I just want those incredulous people to recognize what you explain here as the source and who it is that Is making it difficult for  us all to get along.

      6. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
        Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years ago

        The Buffalo massacre Is part of a rising tide of white supremacy. In this case the shooter was operating under the theory  "The great replacement" and it is shamelessly stoked by Tucker Carlson at Fox News as well as a growing number of Republicans.

      7. tsmog profile image84
        tsmogposted 2 years ago

        The one thing that stands out to me is there was an armed security guard. Yes, he was valiant and condolences to his family. But, where is our society if there is a perceived need for an armed security guard at a grocery store. Why? Sad . . .

        1. Sharlee01 profile image88
          Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Such a good point.   I would think it could be due to people stealing or the possibility of robbery. yes, very sad, and very much overlooked by our society.

          Can we overlook some crimes, but become drawn into a crime of race?

          Race crimes are certainly not something we deal with daily, but we deal with an increase in all crimes in the US at this point. And we seem to care little.  The stats last year in regard to crime and murders are staggering.

          Yet, are we up in arms?  No, we just hire more security guards.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            "Race crimes are certainly not something we deal with daily" - Really? I suspect there are many Blacks, Asians, Jews, Native Americans who will disagree with you.

      8. IslandBites profile image90
        IslandBitesposted 2 years ago

        Any non-triggered non-apologist conservative:

        We definitely have a problem with emboldened fringe elements in our side. It doesnt help that we give a platform to bigots and racist under the excuse of free speech without consequences. We should denounce them more often. Nothing should excuse this hate crime. We as conservatives have some soul searching to do to understand what is happening and how can we help.

        Why some people get so defensive when a white supremacist commits a crime and is denounced? I wonder.

        I guess if it quacks like a duck...

        1. GA Anderson profile image89
          GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          The 'quack' analogy? You know better.

          I recognize the writing of your blurb, it must have been written by one of my alumni. If they return for the post-grad course they will qualify for the Big "C" promotion to [C]conservative.

          GA

      9. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
        Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years ago

        The shooter's manifesto includes dozens of pages of antisemitic and racist memes, repeatedly citing the racist “great replacement” conspiracy theory frequently pushed by white supremacists and quite often by Media star Tucker Carlson.

        The effects of the great replacement theory have already been felt, with a long list of lives lost to the hateful fiction.

        On an uncomfortably regular basis, the host of the most-watched cable news show on television comfortably recites its tenets. Is this just setting the stage for the next act in a seemingly neverending play of violence?

        https://www.mediamatters.org/tucker-car … ationalist

      10. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        Another day and another mass shooting. This time in a church on Orange County, CA.  Not a whole lot is known at the moment.

        https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/05/1 … ng-vpx.cnn

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          This is a strange one.  It actually classifies as a terrorist act because it seems the attack was of a political nature - and not Red vs Blue either.

          The working theory right now is the killer, an old Chinese American with American citizenship, was pissed off at Taiwan for standing up to mainland China.  Not sure why he picked on the gathering of equally old Taiwanese people, but he did. 

          Like the kid in Buffalo, his attack was preplanned and well thought out.  I guess one contingency he didn't account for was the people he was attacking would fight back and actually hog tie him with an extension cord.

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            One thing caught my eye on the reports of this (not the action itself) - it is again being touted as a racist crime.  Not sure when Taiwanese became a race, but apparently it has.

      11. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        A mass shooting last Wednesday in Orange County as well. A semi-automatic handgun was used and the assailant and victims were apparently acquainted with one another.

        https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/us/orang … index.html

      12. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        This conspiracy theory, the so-called "Replacement Theory" which is promoted by Fake Fox News is one of the main ingredients behind the rise in Right-Wing violence and Republican laws banning the teaching of certain parts of American history.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/politics … index.html

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Intolerance is the root of America's problem and may well contribute to its undoing.

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            With this I fully agree.  We are probably the most mixed nation on earth - racially, ideologically, culturally, in almost every way we are an extremely mixed group.

            If we do not learn to live together in peace and harmony, accepting differences and compromise, we will surely go down in flames.  Quite likely literally.

          2. Sharlee01 profile image88
            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, as I pointed out with our rising crime, and murder rate. We only look when we want to... The majority of the crime problems we ignore as insignificant. Intolerant views prevail. And yes, many look past racist crimes that are done out of pure hate.

            Maybe, we need to dig deeper into why that hate is relevant in our society and start there.
            Until we do, we will have people that are racist enough to kill. These crimes are not new, why have we made no progress in stopping such crimes?

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              Probably because we make little to no effort to find the roots of the violence, instead spending the time trying to disarm the people of America.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                So agree. We are a county that handles problems with bandaids. Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime. This is some mentality. Guess they never heard of knives, bats, vehicles., and more.

                1. My Esoteric profile image86
                  My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  "Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime." - [i]You do know that is a creation of the Right, don't you?  It is basically a lie to support a false scenario.  Very few Americans, politicians included, want to disarm other Americans.  They just want to make sure weapons do not fall into irresponsible hands.  You, it seems, and the NRA leadership (not its members) want anybody who wants one to have a gun.

                  You know that is the truth yet you keep spreading the lie that "Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime.".  Why is that?

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                    Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    " You, it seems, and the NRA leadership (not its members) want anybody who wants one to have a gun."  "again causing me of spreading a lie."

                    IT is my opinion that if one truely wants to kill they can choose another weapon. You may not like my opinion, but how dare you call it a lie.

                    This kind of statement shocks me. It is so far over the line, and to be honest, reflects a true lack of social skills.  One can disagree just by saying "I disagree".  You should realize we all have different opinions, I shared mine. If you don't like it, that's your problem. I will step away, you don't want to discuss you want to insult. I find this so distasteful.

                    I fully support the second amendment.

                    1. My Esoteric profile image86
                      My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      So, are you asserting that your statement ""Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime." -" is the Truth?  It isn't, it is lie, onw your side makes all of time about my side. 

                      You deflected.  What does "IT is my opinion that if one truly wants to kill they can choose another weapon...." have to do with "Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime"???   I wasn't talking about using other weapons, was I?

                      I am sorry, but when someone tells an untruth (whether as a opinion or a statement of fact as yours was, I am obligated not to stay silent about it. So, if it is a lie, then I will call it such.  You don't get a pass.

                      I fully support the second amendment, as written, and even with what that activist Justice Scalia appended to it.

                      And besides, even your deflection isn't necessarily true.  The same claim is made about people who kill themselves with guns.  "If they didn't have a gun, they would use something else.". Well, the data CLEARLY shows that is not true either.  While a FEW will find other means, MOST will not.  That is why stronger gun laws WILL reduce suicides.

                      1. Credence2 profile image76
                        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        The problem is that assualt rifles are very efficient killing machines, as one person, I can't kill 10 people in a matter of seconds by throwing knives and skillets at them.

                        The idea that people would just kill with other implements is a specious argument that conservatives use and detracts from the true nature of modern firearms and their capacity to kill many quickly and efficiently. The danger of proliferation of such tools of death, cannot be overemphasized.

                      2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                        Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        AS always do not follow the thread and jump in with some form of off-the-wall accusation. Here is the comment that gives context to what wilderness and I discussed.

                        https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/354 … n-america?
                        page=11#post4244218

                        WILDERNESS WROTE:
                        Probably because we make little to no effort to find the roots of the violence, instead spending the time trying to disarm the people of America.

                        Sharlee Response --  So agree. We are a county that handles problems with bandaids. Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime. This is some mentality. Guess they never heard of knives, bats, vehicles., and more.

                        The rest of your comment makes no sense in any respect to the conversation wilderness and I were having.

                  2. wilderness profile image93
                    wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    ""Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime."

                    Now why would you say that?  No one has ever made the claim that the left thinks that way, OR that it is true.

                    They HAVE said that the left believes that "if we get the guns the body count will fall drastically" - something both your research, mine and that of other honest researchers give the lie to.

                    1. My Esoteric profile image86
                      My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      Sharlee said """Get rid of all guns, and we will have no crime.""  - Take it up with her.  That is also a standard theme from almost all right-wing fanatics.

                      "something both your research, mine and that of other honest researchers give the lie to." - [i]No, my research DOES NOT show that. It clearly shows that the preponderance of the evidence makes it more likely than not that the body count will fall significantly with a total ban on guns, especially when suicides are included.  Add suicides in, then we pass the "beyond a reasonable doubt threshold".  I am sorry you didn't understand what my analysis presented.

              2. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                "Probably because we make little to no effort to find the roots of the violence, instead spending the time trying to disarm the people of America."

                Is there an answer? America has always been a violent society, a certain amount of violence was necessary to steal vast amounts of territory and labor.


                The American economic system plays are role, like the Oklahoma land rush, everyman for himself and take it before someone else does.You are chasing the wind. The "Wild West"mentality has never been grown out of , as it has been in Europe. You just as well ask why the sun rises to east and sets to the west. While we know the answer to that, finding a root solution to that question is just as futile.

                1. GA Anderson profile image89
                  GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  That was such good timing that it must be fate telling me to do it. I had this ready for another reply and then decided not, but it's still on my 'clipboard', so . . .

                  "I would say we already know the root of the problem, but it's too hard to tackle, so instead, we try to cure the symptoms and ignore reality. The gun issue you mentioned is a good example.

                  (It's changing human nature, in this case, it's a 'disease' of two of our most primal  'isms': tribalism and 'otherism')'


                  Tagged to your comment I would add that your whole thought relative to mentalities; American Wild West vs. a Europe that never had one, (like ours), to grow out of.

                  The easiest place to start would be the age of nations. Also, consider how those nations were founded, compared to our founding. That is probably the best comparison because it is supported by history, and when you tie in the time both nations have been at it a trend can be seen.

                  But you're right about comparing it to the sun rising. It's all about time.

                  GA

                  1. Credence2 profile image76
                    Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    An oversight on my part, true, Europe did not have a "Wild West". Maybe a better comparison would be either the Canadians or Australians. Can we say that either of their societies approach ours in the levels of violence currently? Both dealt with a frontier, influx of Europeans and displacement of natives.

                    1. GA Anderson profile image89
                      GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      Those seem to be closer comparisons but might still follow the European example. For instance, and just to be the contrarian, (and I haven't asked my friend Google), I have the perception that Canada was formed from French and British roots and is primarily a mix of those two cultures. Also, Canada's founding was not the same 'fought and bled for' settling of new territory. I guess I should know more but I don't think there are many similarities. I will have to think about the Australian comparison.

                      GA

                      1. Credence2 profile image76
                        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Why did we have to "fight and bleed" and the Canadians did not, as we are on the same continent?

                        America has British and German roots, why are we so different from Canadians with French and British roots?

                        Just a question or two to ponder...

                    2. wilderness profile image93
                      wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      "Europe did not have a "Wild West"

                      One of the things that impressed me most when we visited Scotland was the glorification of war.  Scotland was at war for a thousand years or more - if they weren't fighting the Vikings it was the Romans.  If not Romans then England or Ireland.  If not them then they fought themselves.

                      Scotland is a place that was founded and grew out of violence of the worst sort.  The big difference is that they have had half a thousand years to grow out of it, while we've had a hundred.

                      1. Credence2 profile image76
                        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't know if America can every reach the level of civility found in today's Scotland. The mix is just too different.

                2. wilderness profile image93
                  wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  If finding a solution is futile then we are condemned to remain a violent land, for taking the preferred weapon will accomplish nothing. 

                  On the other hand, honest politicians may come along one day that insist we take a hard look at the problem and find answers...answers that might work instead of simply shifting the blame from on inanimate object to another.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    You know as I do, that is not true. It is provable that in nations that ban or strictly limit them have a much lower violent death rate than America does. They DON'T find other ways to kill people, they just stop killing.

                    Now, I am NOT one of the very few proponents of disarming America, I support the 2nd Amendment as written and with the Scalia addendum.

                    BUT, I am a proponent of making the vetting of who can own a weapon more thorough so as to keep more guns out of irresponsible hands. The ironic thing is that most of the NRA members agree with that idea.  It is the leadership who wants everybody and their brother to own several AR-15s.

                  2. Credence2 profile image76
                    Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, Wilderness, that may well be the case. As for honest politicians, that is a contradiction in terms, I would not hold my breath waiting.

          3. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
            Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            We have politicians fanning the flames. They are, along with certain media  digging these theories out of the darkest corners of the internet and bringing them to light. How many will the latest conspiracy theory radicalize?

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              The fact that so many ridiculous conspiracy theories are seriously considered by so many is in my opinion comes from intolerance as its base and fear of "the other".  As such to the point where people no longer think rationally. As long as I have been around I have never seen stuff like this. The politicians are led by this mob rather then they setting the example by what they advocate and support.

          4. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Fortunately, unlike the previous generations, the Millennials and even more so, the Gen Zers are proving to be much more tolerant than your or my generation.

            It may be racists are now dying faster than they can be replaced.

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              I would like to think so, Esoteric, it is just that these massacres seem to be committed by young white males.

              Has this new generation really learned anything from the past, or are they just that more vulnerable to manipulation by sinister forces?

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                That would be interesting to look at.  Obviously, the Buffalo one was young, as was the Florida school shooting.  So was Root, in South Carolina.

                But the guy in Las Vegas wasn't nor was, I think, the guy at the El Paso Walmart.

                I will have to go look.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I checked this out, a Patrick Crusius, responsible for the El Paso massacre was just 21.

                  I don't know if the guy in Las Vegas had intolerance as the driving motive behind the carnage there.

              2. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                They are more vulnerable, partly because that manipulation has become much more sophisticated.  Partly because they can now always find kindred souls online.  Partly because media presents violence to us every day. 

                There are many reasons for violence.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Are people really that dumb? Where do people so young learn such behavior and attitudes, it has to come from somewhere? Someone or something bigger than them are feeding it to them and larger society is basically indifferent to the message. Who is that someone, parents, media?

                  1. GA Anderson profile image89
                    GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    Here's a thought: Yes, we are all born that dumb, but our 'upbringing' and lived experience make most of us less dumb as we go along. I say the young learn it because everyone wants to belong to something. It's another of those basic human traits that living usually tempers with reason, but Google has short-circuited that 'tempering' period.

                    For weak folks, search engine is an apt term. For the weakest or most deranged or most evil, it is an engine that can hook them up with kindred souls in .43 sec.

                    So you see, it's all Google's fault.

                    GA

                    1. Credence2 profile image76
                      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      Thanks for reminding me, I guess most of us would be dumb at 18. I certainly wasn't the brightest star in the heavens. That, without all the technology that is prevalent today. I just hoped that they would better and stronger.

                      1. GA Anderson profile image89
                        GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't think most of us were as "dumb", (weak, lacking self-esteem), as this 18-year-old shooter. But the point is right.

                        I'm still an optimist. I think technology has made most of the generation we are talking about smarter and more self-confident. I bet for every fringe nut like this guy who makes the news, a hundred thousand weren't like him and didn't make the news. Technology also gives the 'weak' the same benefits

                        The missing part of those improvements is the 'upbringing' part. For these folks, the amplified megaphone and instant connection switchboard of the internet have left the upbring part in the dust.

                        GA

            2. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              We can hope so.  I do believe it to be true.

      13. IslandBites profile image90
        IslandBitesposted 2 years ago

        Gunman Payton S. Gendron of Conklin, New York, posted that he selected a particular ZIP code in Buffalo because it had the highest percentage of a Black population close enough to where he lived.

        In his posts, initially written on the chat app Discord and shared on online forum 4chan, the suspect said he visited the Tops Friendly Markets three times on March 8 to survey the layout, as well as at the times of the day when there were the most customers. He planned his attack for mid-March, the posts say, but delayed it several times.

        Gendron was at the Tops Friendly Market on Friday, the day before the shooting, "doing reconnaissance," Buffalo Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia said.

        An operations manager at the market told ABC News that she saw him at the store on Friday evening and told him to leave because it looked like he was bothering customers. Gendron, sitting on a bench outside the store wearing the camouflage he would wear Saturday, left without an argument, Shonnell Harris Teague told ABC. Teague's brother, the Rev. Tim Newkirk, told The Buffalo News that Gendron was "posing as a beggar," and Teague told him he couldn't panhandle there.

        The suspect had other "target locations" down the street, Erie County Sheriff John Garcia said. Authorities found another rifle and a shotgun in his vehicle, said Garcia

        A year ago, the suspect landed on the radar of police as a student at Susquehanna Valley High School, officials said. Gendron had turned in a high school project about murder-suicides, leading to a state police investigation, said Garcia, the sheriff.

        The Susquehanna Valley Central School District referred to it on Monday as an "ominous" reference to murder-suicide through a virtual learning platform in June.

        Gendron wrote about the investigation in a January post on Discord. He wrote it ended when he told investigators his writings were just a stupid thing he'd done.

        "Another bad experience was when I had to go to a hospital's ER because I said the (words) "murder/suicide" to an online paper in economics class," the post reads. He claimed he "got out of it because I stuck with the story that I was getting out of class and I just stupidly wrote that down."

        "That is the reason I believe I am still able to purchase guns. It was not a joke, I wrote that down because that's what I was planning to do," the post reads.


        Just an angry teen. roll

      14. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        We were talking about racism is not just an American problem. As an example I used India's Hindu - Muslim divide.  Here is an opinion piece on that subject.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/opinions … index.html

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I can see that in India the problem is even worse than it is here, and I always believed that America was among the worse. But are we reverting toward a society with the intolerance levels of today's India? I have to wonder.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Me to. The more that MAGA insinuates itself into our society, the more like Russia and India we will become

      15. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        I wasn't sure which forum to put this in, but since the black population is over represented in our prisons, I thought this one would do.

        The Conservatives on the Supreme Court made justice even harder to obtain in America.  It is well documented that many, many innocent people are wrongly convicted - just look at the huge success rate of the various "innocence" projects.

        Well, apparently these Conservatives don't like convicted people getting off, even when they are innocent.  But, I guess that is typical of the conservative mind-set.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/23/politics … index.html

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I can follow, understand and sympathize with both sides of the court on this one.  There are inmates that had insufficient representation.

          But that does not mean that they should have 50 years of court trials, and unending court case, to put off their sentence.  It doesn't mean that if evidence comes to light that it was automatically the fault of representation to not find it years before.

          Perhaps a better answer is to quit giving the accused a brand new lawyer because it's cheaper for the state.  Instead, ensure that an experienced, quality attorney is provided.  Recall the furor over Clinton getting someone off?  She did her job, did it well, and we should all recognize that attorneys that represent the accused are there because we guarantee adequate representation and expect them to do their best to get off rather than burning an attorney that wins a case for someone we don't like at the stake.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            "But that does not mean that they should have 50 years of court trials," - Isn't a lot of that due to how inefficient the justice system is and how resentful prosecutors and judges are at being proven wrong.

            Also, I don't quite know what you mean by "put off their sentences".  These men have already been sentence and incarcerated.  Also, I haven't heard of very many accused being able to stay out of jail for 50 years.

            "It doesn't mean that if evidence comes to light that it was automatically the fault of representation to not find it years before." - [i]Is anybody saying it this is the case?  But, often people do get bad representation and it shouldn't be impossible, like these conservative Justices are making it.


            "Perhaps a better answer is to quit giving the accused a brand new lawyer because it's cheaper for the state. " - Totally agree.  Also, the gov't needs to provide sufficient funding to hire enough defense councils to handle the load.

            Was she part of a state paid public defender's office?

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              "Also, I don't quite know what you mean by "put off their sentences".

              Sorry - I was referring to any death sentences.  I'm well aware that there are only a minute handful of those compared to the numbers of other sentences.

              At this point, I don't think Clinton was part of the defenders office, though I could easily be wrong.  I think she was just an attorney the court appointed to defend; I believe some states do that, picking from attorneys in private practice.  Again, could easily be wrong.

              Either way, though, she did her job and did it well; it was wrong to degrade her for doing that just because her client was unsavory (and probably guilty to boot - she got him off on a technicality).

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Absotutely.

      16. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        Another legacy of conservatism in America.

        And lynchings were not only bloodthirsty events, they were also jarringly festive. White parents routinely brought their children to spectacle lynchings of Black men and women as family entertainment.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/29/opinions … index.html

        During Juneteenth, White Conservatives used machine guns and a biplane to mow down innocent blacks in Tulsa, OK.  This will also be part of my book.

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          All of that has been documented and was horrific having occur just over 100 years ago. And Tulsa's current municipal managers have been reluctant to speak of reparations as it was so long ago and there are only a handful of people who were alive in 1921, still living. What about the effect upon their immediate descendants, how much did that savagery cost them?

          When you look at the graphic nature of the spectacles and photographs of same during the period, it is no wonder that today's conservative whites recoil in horror and cry "CRT" in defense. But nothing can change the fact that these crimes were  actually committed by their collective forebears.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            How about this. Put black-face on DeSantis and time-travel him back to 5:08 AM in the Greenwood District  on June 1, 1921 and see if he will still insult Americans with his opposition to CRT.

            I am reading a great article in the Smithsonian on the massacre.  Also, I run the Twitter account for our county DEC, so I just started posting excerpts from the article until the day of remembrance.

            "But nothing can change the fact that these crimes were  actually committed by their collective forebears." - ]i]who have many descendants today with the same mind set. A lot of them are called Trump voters.  And that's the truth.[/i]

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

              I find the attitudes of denial and dismissal more annoying in some sense than the actual crimes committed.

              It is hardly a flash in the pan. Fox's top rated mouthpiece, Tucker Carson, has been adding fuel to this fire. And I have to wonder, if people tell me they are not on board with any of it, why does he always play to a packed house and getting top ratings.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Keep in mind, some 47% of voting Americans voted for Trump.  That is a sad commentary on racial attitudes of so many Americans. Why? Because to be able to vote for Trump, you have to set aside any moral code you might hold.

                It would not be hard, in my opinion, for America to turn into another 1937 Germany, or Russia, or Brazil, or even Venezuela from the Conservative point of view.  We are nearly there today.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I won't even say that too many Americans are racist. But I will say that too many are willing to ignore or accommodate those that are out of apathy, ignorance or selfishness. In many ways, that makes them just as bad as the practitioners, themselves. The overwhelming support that Trump received in 2020 attests to that to large extent.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                    You may not, but I will say too many Americans are racist.  The blind support for Trump by 45% is testimony to that.  The way I view it is if you are not actively racist and/or find it objectionable, you won't support Trump. 

                    What I might agree with is not too many Americans are bigots, which in my mind is racism in action.

                    On a slightly different angle, I agree with the pastor that everybody has some racism in him or her, I certainly know I do.  But to be a good person, you first have to recognize that, determine where that exists in you, and then actively suppress the feeling.

                    1. Credence2 profile image76
                      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                      I would have doubted that Trumps support was based solely on race based issues, I would like to think that this was not the case. I disagree with you to the extent that Racism does not explain all of the Trump phenomena, all though it has to do with a large part of it.

                      Some people would support any Republican candidate just because they are not Democrats. Look at the partnership between the Christian Right and Trump. They embraced the dirtiest example of any man to promote their agenda, regarding this Christian nation of theirs ruled by the most immoral, amoral man on the planet. Just as I pinched my nose and cast my ballot for Joe Biden when there were other candidates that I would have preferred, to avoid supporting any Republican, particularly Donald Trump, it has to be possible for Republicans to vote for Trump as not the most desirable but only alternative available to them.

                      Yes, while we are all subject to human nature, the reasoning and defined portion of our psyche should be consciously brought to the forefront while the ugly instinct stuff is kept on a bridle. That comes with being adult and not "expressing" as a child does.

                      1. My Esoteric profile image86
                        My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        "I would have doubted that Trumps support was based solely on race based issues," - I agree, but I am taking the negative approach. To wit - virtually nobody who is sensitive to racism wouldn't vote for Trump.  The universe that is left are the racists and those who aren't racist, but don't have problems with somebody who overtly is.

                        Now, the population I am considering are those who voted for him in 2020.  Few people had a real sense of what he was in 2016.

                        How come you held your nose for Biden?  Was he too centrist for your liking?

                        That is a trick I picked up in probability theory classes.  The question is "in a class of 25 people, what is the probability that at least two people were born on the same month and day.  You can't solve that directly, but have to work from the negative - "what is the probably nobody was born on the same month and day."  Then it is easy to solve.  If I remember correctly, even though there are 365 days in a year, the answer is over 50%.

      17. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        A very influential Evangelical pastor has come out with a book saying his sect has lost its way.  It has put Trump Republicanism over people.  He realizes that be doing so, his church is alienating over half of America's population and therefore are failing to deliver their message.  He is taking a lot of flak over that position.  It led him to say this truth in a recent interview.

        "There are people who said I'm slowly trying to lead the church to be more woke. Two or three people said, Andy, in that sermon, you called me a racist. No, I just said there's probably a little racism in all of us, including myself. We should examine our hearts and in the cultural moments like what happened with George Floyd. I think you pause and say, 'How does that make me feel?' If there wasn't something heartbreaking about that, regardless of what you think, politically or pro-police or anti-police, you got some work to do."

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/04/us/andy- … index.html

      18. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        I know most cops are good cops, but it is hard to find stories to show that.  Black encounters with white cops are very fearful events in America and way too often turn out badly.  This one did not.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/11/us/troop … index.html

      19. PurvisBobbi44 profile image89
        PurvisBobbi44posted 2 years ago

        I was stopped in Gainesville, Florida years ago by a Black Policeman and was given a ticket for running a red light. I tried to explain that the dump truck in front of me stopped under the traffic light and I could not see it. When he moved--people were honking at me to move and I did. Then, I was stopped in front of the police station. I tried to explain what happened and all he would say if, "May I see your license."

        He listened, but did not comment. Some White policemen came out of the police station and just watched. I asked the Black policeman if he had a card. And he gave me his card.

        The ticket was for $90.00 and this ticked me off. I went to the chief of police in my hometown since I did not live in Gainesville, I only worked there.

        The chief said to pay the ticket that it was cheaper to do than contest it. Well, I thought--there goes the shoes I wanted to buy.

        The Black policeman was very professional and polite--I was in the wrong although it was not my fault entirely-- I was following the dump truck too close. If you have never driven in Gainesville, Florida then you cannot relate to how closely everyone drives behind the other.

        Bobbi Purvis

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          I understand your situation and I know what you mean about those tall trucks.   Although it was only $90, I bet if you had gone to traffic court, you might have won, based on your circumstances.

          I was in a five-car pile up on a freeway near D.C.  I was the second car and ended up rear-ending the car in front of me.  I was cited for being too close.  The situation was hugely complex but the real culprit was a bit of road rage in front of the car I hit.  I explained what happened and why I ended up close behind the other car (my lane was ending due to construction that wasn't really there) so I was forced to merge).

          The judge understood and let me go.

      20. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 2 years ago

        Idaho police and the FBI helped prevent a riot by a "small army" of white supremacists (the most violent and dangerous movement in America) at a Pride parade.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/11/us/31-pe … ndex.html.

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

          And that's how you do it.  You don't let them take over part of the city (like CHAZ), you don't let them riot and burn for months (like Portland).  You don't allow the occupation of police stations (an "insurrection" by definition as it is part of government).

          You stop it, dead in it's tracks.  And you stop it whether it threatens powerful politicians or the mom and pop grocery corner grocery.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            But here is the difference you don't appreciate.  There are normal, non-violent protests (protest which you seem to equate with riots) going on (which you just suggested ought to shut down) on the one hand and a peaceful Pride march on the other.

            In the first case, you had other people (a few from the Right, btw) intent on violence that were not particularly organized taking advantage of the situation.  On the other hand, you have a largish group of people, organized and cohesive INTENT, apparently, on rioting AGAINST peaceful marchers.

            While not anywhere close to an excuse, the former rioters were attacking symbols of oppression and harm to the black community.

            That said, had the rioters during the Summer been cohesive like the white supremacists are and were something the police could actually target, then I absolutely agree with you.  But, that was not the reality - a reality you chose to ignore.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

              "While not anywhere close to an excuse, the former rioters were attacking symbols of oppression and harm to the black community."

              Sure they were.  That's why they burned small businesses (and large).  Because they cause so much harm to the black community.  That's why they took over blocks of residential neighborhood - because homes cause harm to blacks.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                Again - You are being Obtuse as you cherry-pick damage in a chaotic situation in order to deflect from the real truth.

      21. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 22 months ago

        And you say systemic racism doesn't exist in America, lol.  A black couple applied for a loan on their house in a white neighborhood, they didn't hide the fact they were a pair of Black professors.  It came back valued at $472,000.

        They went to another appraiser but this time hid all indications the home was owned by a black couple.  The appraisal came back at $750,000!  Almost $300,000 higher.  They sued.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/black … index.html

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 22 months agoin reply to this

          I heard about stuff like this before, Eso. It the kind of thing people think that they can cleverly conceal.

          I have to be guard on this when I plan to sell my house.

          The good news is that the DeSantis anti-woke initiative has been put in mothballs by the courts.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 22 months agoin reply to this

            As well you should.  I hope it stays that way, but the appeals court is conservative.

          2. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 22 months agoin reply to this

            The current HUD Secretary talks about his experience with racism.

            https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/202 … tn-vpx.cnn

            1. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 22 months agoin reply to this

              I saw the video, Eso, thanks.

              Why people believe that they have to deprive others of what is fair and equatable remains beyond me.

              I say sue, sue, sue, litigate, set an example by hitting the offenders in the pocketbook and I mean hard. Set an example that reminds everyone that engages in these activities, if you get caught.....

              If we take this approach each and every time, somebody might begin to get the message.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 22 months agoin reply to this

                How about a Texas-style law that let's any individual who sees an act of racism sue the perpetrator and anyone who helped them.  What is it? They can sue for $10,000 and court costs and can't be sued back if they lose?

      22. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 22 months ago

        Institutional Racism is alive and well but does suffer occasional defeats such as this one.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/22/us/black … index.html

      23. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 21 months ago

        Anti-Semitism is on the rise again among white supremacists in America and it has been ever since 2017.  Hopefully, it will never get this bad again.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/30/europe/m … index.html

      24. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 18 months ago

        Institutional Racism never stops does it. Tennessee has a racist law that despite the evidence, you can't call a crime a "hate" crime until there is a suspect. This family needs to try to bring the FBI in on the case as a civil rights violation.  Given the circumstances, common sense says this is probably a hate crime.

        https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/18/us/tenne … index.html

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

          That and several interesting articles within the article, thanks....

        2. GA Anderson profile image89
          GA Andersonposted 18 months agoin reply to this

          Just from your info, if the perpetrator is of the persuasion of the hate crime attribution is it still a hate crime?

          GA

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 18 months agoin reply to this

            Who knows, it might be since it is a mixed-race couple.  But given the many epitaphs that are being used against them, it is pretty obvious who did it, if it is arson (I don't know if they have ruled out an accident yet).

          2. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 17 months agoin reply to this

            I think you said "if the perpetrator was black, is it still a hate crime?"  Not a racial hate crime.  It could be a gender hate crime or a homophobic hate crime if those were the circomstances.

            1. GA Anderson profile image89
              GA Andersonposted 17 months agoin reply to this

              What about a lefthanders hate-crime, is that as valid as a gender hate-crime?

              GA

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 17 months agoin reply to this

                Once upon q time that used to be a thing among fundamentalist Christians. But, I haven't heard or read about them persecuting left-handers recently.

                Also, did they actually "hate" left-handers or just think that was the sign of the devil and needed to be eliminated or changed?

                1. GA Anderson profile image89
                  GA Andersonposted 17 months agoin reply to this

                  It was a sign, of course, just like the other signs you originally mentioned. Hate crime charges are simply declarations of moral indignity.

                  GA

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 17 months agoin reply to this

                    I'm not sure "moral indignity" really describes active bigoty that leads to the harm or death of the party to whom your "moral indignation" is directed.

      25. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 17 months ago

        It just doesn't stop, does it!!  White cops injuring or killing Blacks willie-nillie.  This time it was punching a Black women in the face and head hard enough to send her to the hospital.  Hopefully, she brings a civil suit.

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/us/ohio- … index.html

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 17 months agoin reply to this

          Two cops try to escort her out of a store where she is trespassing.  She begins to scream and becomes violent, resisting the efforts of police to remove her.  She is warned to quiet down, which she does not do.  She gets hit.

          Bottom line is that had she behaved herself and treated the police with the respect she demands for herself none of it would have happened.  Can't say that I have a whole lot of sympathy...if that is the whole story.  It usually isn't.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 17 months agoin reply to this

            Was you description of her actions from an independent witness or caught on video?  Or are you simply taking the offenders word for it?

            Bottom line there is NO excuse for repeatedly punching a women (or a man for that matter}, in the face.  And why are there no reports of white women being so abused by cops (although I will admit there have been occasional reports of white women being raped by cops)?  Are black women the only ones who put up a fight.

            Is beating a person senseless part of their police training?  I think not.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 17 months agoin reply to this

              "Was you description of her actions from an independent witness or caught on video?"

              Took it from your link.  Do you take your (obvious) description of her complete cooperation from her or from video?

              "And why are there no reports of white women being so abused by cops "

              Really?  You have to ask that?  When it doesn't sell to the public, when it isn't PC to report it, when it doesn't support the liberal agenda, it doesn't get reported.

              On top of that, I would guess (purely from poverty and poor neighborhoods) that the average black woman (or man) is far more likely to resist police than the average white.  Partly because of poverty, partly because of poor living conditions and partly because they are being trained that the police are then enemy.

              "Is beating a person senseless part of their police training?  I think not."  Is tasing a person senseless part of their police training?  Yes.  Is shooting a person dead a part of it?  Yes.  What makes you think that fists are not a part of it too?  Simply because the liberal way is to coddle criminals and turn them loose with a wrist slap?

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 17 months agoin reply to this

                "Took it from your link.  Do you take your (obvious) description of her complete cooperation from her or from video?" - Why do you keeping making these false statements up?

                Also, you didn't answer the question again.  Who was it in my link that provided your description of her resistance. Was that the police's story or an independent witness??

                The police beating anybody senseless is a headline. It just seems it only happens to blacks and other minorities.

                "when it doesn't support the liberal agenda, it doesn't get reported." - You and I both know that is pure BS.

                Do you have any facts to back up "On top of that, I would guess (purely from poverty and poor neighborhoods) that the average black woman (or man) is far more likely to resist police than the average white.  " OR is that just your stereotyping coming into play?  I also have another name for that type bias against blacks.

                "partly because they are being trained that the police are then enemy." - If true, but the teachers are the actions of the police

                "What makes you think that fists are not a part of it too?  " - Didn't you leave something out such as "... fists used to smash in someone's face are not a part of it too"

                It also looks like she is handcuffed in the picture. Was that before or after they beat her?

        2. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 17 months agoin reply to this

          Mc Donald's is at fault for instigating with an unnecessary call to police. Once they made the woman's order correctly, and she accepted the refund, I did not see anywhere that she was unruly and had to be forced from the restaurant.

          I can't see how two grown men could not subdue an  unarmed woman short of bashing her in the face? It is the same stuff I see about handcuffing and manhandling eleven year old girls over a altercation at school. It is hard to say that excessive force was not used.

          But there the issue of driving while her license is suspended, and the open container of alcohol in the vehicle. If she were not intoxicated, she might just have received a citation, presuming that this is a first time offense.....

          I say that is a stereotype to presume that blacks on average are hostile to police. If those attitude exist they are more socio-economic rather than racial.

          The verdict: the police is out of line, 2 of them unable to subdue a woman short of battery and assualt. Where is the requirement that she has to identify herself? Once she resolved her issue with McDonalds, on what basis was she compelled to have to leave the restaurant?

          Talking about PC and liberal coddling is just more of the biases that put me off toward rightwing reasoning.

      26. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        While this instance is not one of white police officers killing black men, it is one of way too many showing the reckless behaviour of rogue cops.  Because of the volume of violence some cops show towards those they are sworn to protect, it is clear something must be done to reign in cops turning people, especially of color, into human piñatas.

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre- … index.html

        1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
          Fayetteville Fayeposted 16 months agoin reply to this

          All of these officers were terminated and charged quickly. I'm imagining the body cam video is absolutely heinous.
          It's incomprehensible that a citizen could be beaten to death over a traffic stop with five officers involved.  We need better screening/training  in this country for police officers.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

            They were part of a "special unit" called the Scorpions who were initially organized to put a stop to the reign of murders in Memphis around 2021.  Those units, which required very experienced cops and supervisors when they went out, were undercover and in plainclothes.

            In this case the most experienced officer was only 6 years on the job and there was no sergeant at the scene.

            One of the charges against them is kidnapping which apparently indicates  the initial stop is without probable cause.

            1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
              Fayetteville Fayeposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              The video was horrendous. That was murder.  We have a real police brutality problem in this country.  Reform is desperately needed. The culture of policing needs to be disrupted. 
              Seems like some politicians would rather focus on banning books, micromanaging, vilifying teachers/ doctors and other "anti-woke' pursuits.   Police reform is just another area too tough for them to tackle. Oh and they may lose votes also. We all know that's the only thing that drives them.  Meanwhile the police can continue brutalizing people as they deem fit.  Apparently there was not even a justified reason to make the traffic stop on Mr. Nichols.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                If Tennessee has a death penalty, this would be the perfect case for it.  It would not be hard for me to imagine those politicians you mention (Soviet/Nazi throwbacks) will find ways to minimize or excuse those officers actions.

                They would probably criticize the police chief and DA for moving too fast.

              2. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                "Apparently there was not even a justified reason to make the traffic stop on Mr. Nichols."

                That was certainly not evident on the video (that I saw, anyway).  Where are you getting that information?

                1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
                  Fayetteville Fayeposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  "Memphis Police Chief Cerelyn J. Davis told CNN Thursday morning that her department has not found proof of Tyre Nichols driving recklessly — the reason police officers used to pull him over on January 7.

                  "We've looked at cameras, we've looked at body-worn cameras, and even if something occurred prior to the stop, we've been unable to substantiate that at this time," Davis told CNN. "We have not been able to substantiate the reckless driving."

                  In any event, the video clearly shows the car being stopped and the officer immediately,  physically and violently pulling Mr Nichols out of the car.

                  https://www.businessinsider.com/tyre-ni … ays-2023-1

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                    Also, that is apparently why they are being charged with kidnapping.

                    1. wilderness profile image93
                      wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                      That one could be interesting.  If they arrested the guy, then they did not kidnap him.  Might be false arrest, but not kidnapping (under laws I'm halfway familiar with, anyway).

                      Then they chased him down and detained him (kidnapping if they made no arrest) but then put him in an ambulance.

                      Could be interesting.  My bet is on dropping that charge unless one of the cops has no other charge against him.

                      1. Fayetteville Faye profile image60
                        Fayetteville Fayeposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                        Under Tennessee law, kidnapping requires that a person “knowingly removes or confines another unlawfully so as to interfere substantially with the other’s liberty.” The kidnapping charges against the officers may indicate that  at least in the eyes of prosecutors, Mr. Nichols traffic stop itself had been illegal.

                        “For the district attorney to charge the officers with kidnapping Tyre Nichols during the arrest is such an unusual move that it’s almost astounding, but it likely reflects the fact that the officers had little to no justification to apprehend him in the first place,”

                        In any event there were other documented issues with this scorpion unit and senseless brutality.  One of the officers was involved in a lawsuit that involve the beating of an inmate yet this officer was later hired by MPD.   

                        https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/le … idnapping/

                  2. wilderness profile image93
                    wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                    Yeah - I caught that pulling him out as well.  Hard to imagine a reason why.

                    But I don't get that reckless driving bit.  "...even if something occurred prior to the stop, we've been unable to substantiate that at this time..."  What does that mean, anyway?  I get that they have not been able to prove reckless driving but what does "even if something occurred prior to the stop" mean?  That they can't find a reason for yanking him out like that?  Why would they look at body cams for something that happened when they were turned off?  It sounds like a total case of waffling to me - trying to sound reasonable while saying nothing.  Which might actually be the smart thing to do given what the cameras do seem to show.

      27. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        Why does it take the public display of a violent beating death of a black man to get people to move to make sensible changes to protect the public from rouge cops and institutional racism?

        Why are Republicans still fighting against needed reform at the federal level?

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/07/us/memph … index.html

      28. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        More evidence of systemic racism in America.

        "Black college students have lower six-year completion rates for any type of degree or certificate program than any other racial or ethnic group because of racial discrimination, the high cost of higher education and a multitude of external responsibilities, according to a new Lumina Foundation-Gallup 2023 State of Higher Education study."

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/09/us/black … index.html

      29. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        Ohio police go after another black man, this time a reporter.  The issue here isn't violence but the fact that the arrest happened at all.

        https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/m … onference/

        1. Credence2 profile image76
          Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

          In all fairness, Eso, was the reporter interrupting an address by a speaker?

          If I did that, I would expected be asked to quiet down or leave the facility.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

            No, he was at the back of the venue where Gov. DeWine was speaking and speaking in low tones. When the cops asked him to shut down his live feed, he did so immediately.  Apparently, that wasn't good enough.  Down on the ground he went to be handcuffed.  He is charged with disturbing the peace and trespassing.

            Even DeWine is highly upset over this.

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              More to the story.  The Ohio National Guard Adjutant General gets involved by pushing the reporter (allegedly because the reporter "moved toward him in a threatening manner").  They were in a heated argument.

              Lambert kept insisting he had a right to be there (he had stopped reporting by now) but apparently they didn't like Lambert insisting on his rights and hauled him out of the venue and then arrested him.

              https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/10/us/newsn … mera-video

              1. Credence2 profile image76
                Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

                It was interesting to note that the Governor was unaware and would have disapproved of how the reporter was treated. So, who made this National Guard fellow a God in himself?

                1. My Esoteric profile image86
                  My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  Who knows. I don't know if the police started and the general joined in or the other way around.

      30. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        Will America ever stop being discriminatory toward others (the answer is no)?  This case is about sexism and the fact that America is the only country that charges two different tariff rates for ... underwear.  We charge a 35% higher rate for women's panties than we do for men's shorts.  I guess I am not surprised since we still pay women less money for the same job who have the same qualifications as their male counterparts.

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/13/economy/ … index.html

        1. gmwilliams profile image84
          gmwilliamsposted 16 months agoin reply to this

          Humans are still intensely tribal.  It is the ingroup vs outgroup mentality.  Sadly, humans will never evolve beyond tribalism.

          1. wilderness profile image93
            wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

            "Sadly, humans will never evolve beyond tribalism."

            Now, now.  Give it a few hundred thousand years and we will likely not be nearly so tribal, or at least the tribes will be worldwide.

            Or we will have killed ourselves off.  Always a possibility! lol

            1. My Esoteric profile image86
              My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              Studies are now showing our latest generation "appears" to be more tolerant of others than past generations. I hope they are right.

              https://www.amadorvalleytoday.org/9884/ … n-history/

              1. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                I do think that is true - on the whole, on the average. Americans (can't speak for other cultures) seem to be more tolerant. 

                At the same time that tolerance is forever being tested and stretched.  It sounds like great intolerance when we here of this "stretching" that isn't well accepted, but that's because we now ignore where the tolerance is shown and given.  There is also the problem of the "squeaky wheel", or the loud voice, being taken as norm when it is not.

          2. Credence2 profile image76
            Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

            As long as there are ingroups and out groups, no one will be able to find peace. We all must sleep with one eye open. The desire to subject others to control and domination will always cost the perpetrators as much as the objects of such control.

            1. gmwilliams profile image84
              gmwilliamsposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              Most humans are at the sheeple level.  This is an unfortunate state of affairs.   Most humans are quite insular.  Only a minute percentage of humans are evolved & universal in scope.  The average human mentality is me, mine, & ours.  Humans look out for those who in their immediate circle only.  Anyone outside that immediate circle is suspect & viewed as outsiders. 

              Most humans don't care about outsiders.  This has been demonstrated historically through ethnic, racial, & religious conflicts.  This has been further demonstrated by genocidal behaviors.  It will take about 5-7 centuries for the majority of humans to evolve beyond the me level. Most humans exist at the animal level.  Only a few evolved humans can see beyond the mere animalistic level.  The human mindset has unfortunately not evolved to the level which should be expected, given modern times. 

              For example, the 20th century was an example of humankind acting at the most primitive level e.g. Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Tulsa, Rosewood, etc.  It seems to be getting worse instead of better.  There are more homeless people in America.  There shouldn't be any homeless people in America.  The class divide is becoming more pronounced with a widening gap between rich & poor- middle class is being squeezed out through inflation.

              1. gmwilliams profile image84
                gmwilliamsposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                Au contraire, there are people that would be classified as toxic.  These people elect to be in dire circumstances, complaining yet refuse to uplift themselves educationally & socioeconomically. They want others to give them a middle class lifestyle. People have to be taught to help themselves & to be mature & proactive in their lives.  People have to save themselves, not expect others to save them.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  They are passive unless you continue to take, the takers are not going to be made to feel comfortable. As the fallacy of the "happy slave" indicates.

                  The human condition still embraces biases and bigotry, some elements of this culture may embrace it more than others.

                  Economic uncertainty exists in a way for the middle class that was not the case a coupl of generations ago. So, what the general rule associated with class stability has gone by the wayside. Now, everyone is vulnerable. With the exception of the super wealthy, that is the new normal.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                    Can you believe a "happy slave" was a popular argument among conservatives to justify slavery? Amazing.

                    1. Credence2 profile image76
                      Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

                      Yes, and they went so far as to brainwash audiences of such through popular entertainment through out much of the 20th century. “Gone with the Wind:” was a prime example.

                      It is no wonder conservatives go out of their way to ban information(books and literature) to impressional minds in fear of their embrace of a truth other than the propaganda and lies. Such a despicable bunch with a despicable objective cannot be allowed to prevail.

                2. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  Where did you get this attiude that sentient human beings are fundamentally animals?

                  The first three examples Auschwitz, etc, were the product of war, the last two was the product of an enduring American racism. I wouldn't use either sets of example to paint a broad brush on humanity.

              2. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                As to being "insular". My unreasoned reaction is to agree, so I went looking - asking the question  are most people uninterested in cultures, ideas, or peoples outside one's own experience.

                Only ChatGPT gave me a '"no" answer.  Trying to google it led to - nothing. Only references to articles about insularism but no polls or studies.

            2. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              Sadly, you are correct.  We see it every day in our country and in the rest of the world.

          3. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

            I do agree with that, but is that any reason to stop trying to make it a better world? By instituting laws that make it a crime to exhibit or practice the worst parts of tribalism?  To teach our kids to at least tolerate and not discriminate others who do not look like them or have the same religion.

            Studies show that tribalism is a learned trait, we are not born with it.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              "Studies show that tribalism is a learned trait, we are not born with it."

              That's interesting - what I have seen is that fear of anything different or new is built into us from birth.  Wonder which one is true.

      31. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 16 months ago

        Florida (of course) Christian college, a private institution that apparently teaches thangs Christ would be ashamed of, cancelled a famous signing group because one its members has the wrong "lifestyle".  It would seem these so-called Christians think God makes mistakes.

        https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/kings … index.html

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

          In a discussion of tolerance, this is not a good example for two reasons.  First, it IS a Christian College, with administrators that find that lifestyle to be very, very wrong and one that shall not be presented to its student body for fear of losing their everlasting souls.  Do not forget that its primary purpose is not to educate in general (that's strictly secondary) but to teach what they think God wants.

          Secondly it absolutely pales beside mainstream universities that refuse to allow conservative speakers even as they promote themselves as bastions of diversity and tolerance.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

            I don't deny these administrators find particular lifestyles very wrong.  What I am pointing out is that is very unchristian, a view which Jesus would condemn them for.

            The whataboutism in your second paragraph doesn't apply, even if true.

            BTW, what are some examples of "conservative" speakers that were cancelled?

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

              Are you a Christian, specifically a part of that institution or the church that runs it?

              If not you are in no way qualified to determine if their actions are Christian or not.  Nor are you qualified to debate those people on what Jesus would have done.  Either one can only be determined by them, not you.  Not the pope, not the Dali Lama or anyone else (except one, but he died 2,000 years ago).

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                "If not you are in no way qualified to determine if their actions are Christian or not.  " - [i]Oh, Give me a break. What an absurd claim.  You must think everybody but you is chained in a cave watch what goes on in the world from reflections on the cave wall. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave)

                Well, I am sorry to inform you that is not the way the world works
                BTW, how many times have you read the Bible all the way through?  For me, it was twice before I was 15 and once sometime after that.  Yeah, I have right to talk about Jesus and Christianity.

                As to whether I am a Christian or not, I am not. I have the study of the Bible to thank for that.

                1. wilderness profile image93
                  wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  You certainly do have the right to talk about Jesus. 

                  But you do NOT have the right to tell Christians that their beliefs about what  (the Christian) God wants are wrong, for no one knows.  Least of all someone that is not a Christian themselves.  If you do not understand this, I might suggest visiting several different Christian sects and delving into what they think God wants, and what they think of other sects that do not agree with them.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                    "But you do NOT have the right to tell Christians that their beliefs about what  (the Christian) God wants are wrong, for no one knows.  " - Of course I do, just like you can tell me I am wrong or I don't have the right to say they are wrong.  A basic precept of Christianity is that God is never makes mistakes by creating defective humans.  When a "Christian" church like this one says that he did, I can say they are wrong. It only makes sense.

                    1. wilderness profile image93
                      wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                      It may make sense to you; it does not to them.  Every strong Christian I have ever known doesn't care about "making sense"; they care about what they have been taught that God wants.  And if you disagree then you are wrong.  It's that simple.

                      1. My Esoteric profile image86
                        My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                        Well, taken that way, you are correct.  (I won't bring Trump supporters into this, lol).

                2. Sharlee01 profile image88
                  Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  I truely suspect that you were not a Christian.  The ideologies you have shared, in my view, mirrored that you do not follow the Christian faith.

                  In America, we have wonderful rights that offer free thinking. 

                  I value being a Christian, I would suppose as much as you value not being a Christian.

            2. Credence2 profile image76
              Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

              Everybody knows that standard rightwing bigotry hides behind Christian religion far too often.

              1. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                I would argue they hide behind what conservatives want Christianity to be - which is very different from what Jesus taught.

                1. Credence2 profile image76
                  Credence2posted 16 months agoin reply to this

                  What I don't get is that it seems so obvious that a child can discern the difference. Just how dumb do the evangelizers think that their flocks are?

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                    Pretty dumb, apparently.

                    1. wilderness profile image93
                      wildernessposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                      How dumb do you have to be to drink the Kool Aid?

                      1. My Esoteric profile image86
                        My Esotericposted 16 months agoin reply to this

                        That is a great example of how dumb evangelicals are, thanks.

                        That is why I make the comparison with those who drink Trump's message.

      32. Credence2 profile image76
        Credence2posted 15 months ago

        ESO, here is another interesting story


        https://news.yahoo.com/gop-congressman- … 57962.html

        1. My Esoteric profile image86
          My Esotericposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I am not surprised.  While racism is ubiquitous, it appears to be endemic to the Republican Party and its right-wing off-shoots the White Supremist and Christian Nationalists.

          Gooden should be added to the list of Republicans being investigated by the  Ethics committee.

      33. My Esoteric profile image86
        My Esotericposted 15 months ago

        More proof that racism is ubiquitous.  I would place a bet that Scott Adams is a conservative.

        https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/here-ar … 22/514702/

        I wasn't aware that the phrase "It's OK to be White" (with a capital W) was a White Supremist thing (it started in Australia with a law one of them tried to get enacted).  I wonder how many black people realized this when responding to Rasmussen's vague poll question that so upset Adams.

        I would have responded strongly agree.  I would have also strongly agreed with the statement "It's OK to be Black" or "It's OK to be Asian", or ...

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Your link doesn't seem to go where you intended it to?

          But yes, racism is ubiquitous and getting worse.  When the President of the country exhibits overt racism and sexism and is applauded for it we have a very real problem, and it isn't excessive tolerance.  Unless that tolerance is for racism and racists, of course.

          1. My Esoteric profile image86
            My Esotericposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Damn!

            https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/25/business … index.html

            We all know which president you are talking about - Trump.

            I have read where right-wing media conjured up this fake idea that what Biden, the most unracist white man I have seen, has said.  But isn't that what right-wing media does - make things up?  Find ghosts where there aren't any?  Propagate election lies?  Unlike MOST mainstream media, right-wing media has proven they cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              You will disagree of course, but when a person (Biden) refuses to consider any race but one for a job it is racism.  When he refuses to consider only one sex for a job it is sexist.  And when he goes public with his action, touting it as a great thing, it simply redoubles the racism inherent in his disgusting display of discrimination, racism and sexism.

              Something Trump never did, even as you claim he was racist and sexist.

              1. IslandBites profile image90
                IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Are you sure?

                1. wilderness profile image93
                  wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Sure of what?  That Eso will disagree?  Yes.

                  That Biden made that action?  Yes.

                  The Trump did not?  Not that I've heard.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image86
                    My Esotericposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    How about putting only WHITE Conservatives on the bench and considering nobody else.

                    1. GA Anderson profile image89
                      GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                      Yep, that was racist too, but we don't do that anymore.

                      GA

                      1. gmwilliams profile image84
                        gmwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                        +100000000.

                    2. wilderness profile image93
                      wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                      And you know who was considered, how?  Your crystal ball again?

                      Biden made it crystal clear that no white and no male would be even considered, let alone placed there.  From the first moment his racism and sexism was open for all to see...and applaud.

                      1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                        Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                        WILDERNESS

                        Biden uses dog whistles in regard to race, and gender frequently when he campaigned, and in his speeches since becoming president. I always look at his age and party. he follows the old ploys Democrats have used for years. Add in - "They are going to take away your SS and medicare... He is a huckster, and actually a very obvious huckster.

                        Biden made it very clear even when picking a VP, he was only considering women ---  Biden says he will pick a woman to be his vice president
                        https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/15/poli … index.html

                        "“If I’m elected president, my Cabinet, my administration will look like the country, and I commit that I will, in fact, appoint a, pick a woman to be vice president,” Biden said at the CNN-Univision debate in Washington, DC."

                        Aug 30  2019  Biden says he would prefer a person of color or a woman as his vice president

                        "Whomever I pick, preferably it will be someone who was of color and/or a different gender, but I’m not making that commitment until I know that the person I’m dealing with I can completely and thoroughly trust as authentic and on the same page [as me],” Biden said while speaking to a roundtable of black journalists."
                        https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/28/poli … index.html

              2. My Esoteric profile image86
                My Esotericposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Actually, it doesn't.  So many Whites in this country would be very happy that there was NEVER a Black or a Woman on the Supreme Court.  When somebody attempts to correct that inequity, it is called reverse racism.  But, given their mindsets, they can't think any other thought.

                I don't buy it.  Every person should do what they can to repair the inequity in America and what Biden did was clearly not racist but required of a civil society.

                1. wilderness profile image93
                  wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Right.  And when that "repair" discriminates against one that has never shown any racism at all it is applauded as "just" somehow.

                  No, Eso, there is no reason to discriminate against anyone.  It is illegal, it is immoral and it is unethical.  Which describes Bidens actions to a T.

                  1. My Esoteric profile image