The UNADULERATED Truth-Are We Equal?

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   gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago

   
   There are those who assert that all humans are born equal.  However, reality presents an entirely different case.  There are humans who possess more whether it is in terms of intellect, genetics, & socioeconomic conditions while there are humans who possess less in these areas?   Do you believe that there are some humans who are better than others?  Present your argument either pro or con?

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      peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Depends on what you want to measure.
      But the main difference is money. If you are sick and poor, bad luck. If you are sick and rich, no prob. If you are poor and black in a white society, bad luck. If you are black and rich in a white society, no problem (less I should say).
      Money opens all doors. And so it's not so much the characteristics you are born with but the money you are born with that gives you a headstart.
      People with money want to keep this division. The more expensive education becomes the more difficult it becomes to become rich (one of them).
      Free healthcare, no way, a sick person could become a rich person and threaten the inequality status.
      Give poor people bad education, bad health service and guns and addictive drugs and they will stay poor. Don't give them the opportunity to become rich. Make it difficult.
      And at the same time, make it easy to stay rich when you've passed the threshold.
      This system is classic.
      If you really want to give people better chances to develop to their full potential you have to give them the opportunity to get out of the poverty zone. (it's even scientificaly proven that when you become poor your IQ drops and goes up again when you have money)
      Eliminate poverty and aim for a big middle-class society and more people will use their full potential making society healthier and less stressful.
      So you have to regulate the wealth better to achieve this.

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         hubber8893posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I think your answer is somewhat justified, but there are multiple issues about it based on the different aspects of our life. In a nutshell, I would like to say that if there comes a time of universal equality around the world; No one will do anything and the world will stand still. For example, if all levels of a river are equalized, there will be no water flow. Water makes its own way just because it traverses different types of terrain (mountains, plateau, glaciers and plains, etc.). Life is exactly the same as the one known as "The Way of the Waters"

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            peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I think this fear of universal equality resulting in lazy people is a myth invented by the rich to make an excuse not to help the poor.
            It's a myth to make the gap between the have and have-nots bigger.
            People will always be different. But money will give people better ways to live their lives and develop themselves and contribute to society.
            Or if you want a metaphor as well.
            Invest in people and you will have a rich harvest. Neglect them and your country will dry out and die.

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               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Loved it, Peterstreep!
               
               Invest in people and you will have a rich harvest. Neglect them and your country will dry out and die.
               
               Imran Khan, Pakistan's ex-prime minister, has the same view. Sadly, not many understand this theory!

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         DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         No, that is not scientifically proven. Your IQ does not go up or down based on your income.

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            Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            The usual side effects of poverty are abundant and well documented. They include crime, chronic stress and a long list of health conditions. But you may not have heard of this one: lower IQ.
            
            Analysis: How poverty can drive down intelligence
            
            Correlations Of IQ With Income And Wealth

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               DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Correlation is not equal to causation. A poor person can have a low IQ but that does not mean that getting rich one day is going to raise your IQ. (If that were the case all of those lottery winners that blow their money in a few years would become geniuses instead of returning to poverty.) A person that is better off financially and has a higher IQ does not suddenly lose their Intelligence if they lose their money in the stock market and go bankrupt and become homeless.
               
               (Their IQ will go down if they use some drugs that destroy their brain cells, but it is not going to go back up if they go through rehab.) The posters statement was just fine until he stated "it's even scientificaly proven that when you become poor your IQ drops and goes up again when you have money".
               
               No, that is not proven.

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                  Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I've actually have been rich most of the time. I thought it would make me happier. I'm happier now between more middle class to sometimes
                  poor. Think this has a better EIQ
                  both emotions and mentally diverse intelligence State of well being.

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                  Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  I shared two links. One of them is a research study. There are many more!
                  We were talking about circulating/distributing money among the people of the country, providing them with more opportunities to help them get out of poverty, but with lotteries, I'm not sure about the IQ, but getting so much money all of sudden, there are chances they may go nuts! Lol!
                  
                  Take care, and have a great day!

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                     DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     The link from NPR, which has no sources so is just opinion, is somewhat worthless. It is not research.
                     Did you read the second link? It certainly said nothing about IQ going up and down. The comments were very good criticisms of the findings.
                     
                     So, no, you have provided no evidence that IQ goes up and down depending on how you are doing financially. IQ is correlated with poverty, but that does not prove that IQ is caused by poverty.(It does not even show that IQ test results are biased against the poor, which they certainly are.)

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                        Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I guess you are right. It can be considered an opinion. The original research study can be found here:
                        
                        https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1238041
                        
                        
                        A pdf file is available at the bottom of the article under the heading 'Resources.'
                        
                        If you want, you can download it. But then again, we're all different and will perceive things differently.
                        And it's nothing bad I guess.
                        
                        Here's a link to a government site (National Library of Medicine.) I hope their opinion matters
                        
                        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23990553/
                        
                        Best wishes!

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                           DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           There are two kinds of research. The first is where you make a project and then decide what answer is correct based on your findings. The second is where you have your mind made up (poverty causes lower IQ) and set up your study to prove what you already think.
                           
                           The authors of this paper already admit that they made up their mind in the second sentence of the abstract. They then state that stress does not cause lowered cognitive function. Right! Ask any college student that flunks an exam becaue they were stressed out by something totally unrelated.
                           
                           The National Library of Medicine does not certify papers, they only reproduce what is already out there. There is a lot of untrue things published, and assumptions are made all the time.
                           
                           (You also might want to read https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24311665/ which is a comment about their research.)

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                              Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence.

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                              peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              During your lifetime (or mine) the IQ changes because of different reasons.
                              Food has also an influence on IQ. So why would it not be possible that the lack of money influences IQ?

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                                 Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 +100000000

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                                 DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 Results of test change, which certainly does not prove that intelligence changes.
                                 Here is a qoute from Mensa, an organization that buys into the results from those tests? "Can your IQ level change?
                                 Not generally. IQ tests are age adjusted, basically to take account of youth and inexperience (under 18) or age and diminishing speed. The reason is that, as we get older, diminishing speed and spatial awareness are balanced by having more knowledge and experience to draw on to solve problems."

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                                    peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                    IQ is tricky. As you can also argue that making an IQ test is an art in itself.
                                    But as you (or Mensa) say IQ changes over a lifespan. IQ is influenced by many things. Food is one thing, as what you eat influences your immune system, your alertness, and your awareness. etc. Drugs have an influence on your awareness (and IQ I guess) as well for example.
                                    In other words, there are many factors that change your IQ, and I don't think it's far-fetched to say that money (which has an effect on well-being, like the food you buy or the problems you struggle with) can affect IQ.
                                    
                                    To be honest, it sounds unreasonable. And as said it can lead to discrimination. And there's already so much discrimination towards poor (money-wise) people. And the correlation between money and IQ can give rich people the excuse for morally higher ground...!!
                                    So scientific proof that money influences IQ is not really ethically desirable.

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                                       DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                       I definitely agree with that last sentiment, since if it is stated that poverty causes low IQ it tends to pigeonhole those people hit with poverty. My neighbors that are farm laborers are not less intelligent but would have lower IQ scores just because of testing bias.

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                                          peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes, and besides a high IQ score does not mean you're a good person. Eichmann for sure was an intelligent man...
                                          I highly prefer a high empathy score above a high IQ score.
                                          And if I was king I would make a minimum level of empathy score for all politicians as it's absent in abundance in this profession is my impression.

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 Lack of or too much Money can effect one's balance and IQ.

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            peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Yes it has. There are several studies on this subject. One for example is a classic that measured the IQ of the same people before and after the harvest.
            - Burden of Poverty
            Lacking money or time can lead one to make poorer decisions, possibly because poverty imposes a cognitive load that saps attention and reduces effort. Mani et al. (p. 976; see the Perspective by Vohs) gathered evidence from shoppers in a New Jersey mall and from farmers in Tamil Nadu, India. They found that considering a projected financial decision, such as how to pay for a car repair, affects people's performance on unrelated spatial and reasoning tasks. Lower-income individuals performed poorly if the repairs were expensive but did fine if the cost was low, whereas higher-income individuals performed well in both conditions, as if the projected financial burden imposed no cognitive pressure. Similarly, the sugarcane farmers from Tamil Nadu performed these tasks better after harvest than before.-
            source sience.org
            Or if you want to read the whole study from Havard.org
            Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function

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               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               I also shared the same information above. But the one you shared is more detailed. Thanks for sharing, Peterstreep

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                  peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  You're welcome.
                  I think it is difficult to accept that a lack of money can lower your IQ. And indeed it can lead to discrimination and fingerpointing when misused.
                  Like saying. "Oh, you're poor, so you have a low IQ and are stupid." But this is a wrong conclusion.
                  You have rich people with a low IQ and poor. And poor people that are inteligent just as rich people.
                  But you have to look at the situation of one person and see how his or her personal IQ score is changing in relation to the situation he/she is in.
                  And also the term "poor" is ambiguous. You can have little money but don't have to be poor as you don't have to spend much.

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                     Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     You are right

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               DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Your argument was solid until you decided to qoute junk science. Here is a qoute from a review of that research "A reanalysis without dichotomization of income fails to corroborate their findings and highlights spurious interactions between income and experimental manipulation due to ceiling effects caused by short and easy tests."
               That about sums it up. You can always make the results fit what you want to believe of you try hard enough.

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      AliciaCposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      “Better” is a subjective term. Kindness to others, determination, and a work ethic in a job (whatever it is) and in life in general to the extent that a person’s health allows are valuable characteristics, for example. People are different with respect to their job, income, health, and other factors, but that doesn’t mean that a person with one set of characteristics is better than a person with another set.

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      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I'm no better or worse than the next guy. Although through work and love I've  found more joy and happiness than most during my lifetime.  Money for most part is imaginatary yet too much focus on financial like in North America. It makes  it unhealthy and unbalanced. I buy or make healthy products in order to give the greedy very little and give more to the sick and poor for my contribution of balance towards humanity.

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      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      We are created equal until born into this world. Many human beings are better off than others due to intellect, genetics, & socioeconomic.
      
      That sums it up.

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         Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Wish the gross national product was happiness rather than financial all the time.
         
         A study of happiness at university of Toronto, said. About 60% has to do from your own individualism, then 30% genetic and 10% situations.

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   hubber8893posted 2 years ago

   You may be right, but I believe that people in the past have worked harder than they do today. Because there was a greater inequality gap and more desire for wealth.

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      MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I think you have a point. There was no social safety net for them to fall into. Before Marx and Lenin put forth their versions of "equality" to the world, people relied on family for their safety net or had none at all.

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         hubber8893posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for your kind response Madame!
         what do you think should be the conclusion of this debate?

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            MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Now that is a good question, and I don't have the answer. Some of the folks here have brought up some good points about helping people to get out of poverty. I would love to see that all people have been helped and that they are working members of the middle class, but I really haven't seen that. My first husband and I were struggling young adults of the middle class when President Johnson instigated his Great Society. He (my then husband) came from Texas wealth and I came from a rural farming community in the Ozarks. We weren't wealthy, but we weren't poverty stricken either; my family were mostly farmers, teachers, and blue collar workers so we didn't have to be "helped". We almost all, anyway, finished high school and some of us went on to college. Anyway, we saw all those poverty level people, whites, blacks, and Latinos being herded into brand new low rent housing in Texas. We left there for a few years, and when we returned, that very housing had become a slum. We saw the same thing happen in Little Rock, Arkansas: crime ridden slums that were eventually torn down. At the same time many of my peers in my rural hometown who had been barefoot and sometimes hungry in the hills had worked hard in school and gotten good educations. Some had received college scholarships and gone on to join the middle class as engineers, professors, and one even became a well to do public servant in town. Not sure but he may have become mayor.
            So I guess my point is that giving help to the poor doesn't automatically raise them above poverty level. It doesn't make them equal to other people. It depends on the kind of help that is given. When the government helps people to help themselves they can rise up to the middle class, and a tiny few may even become wealthy. However, when the poor are given everything for nothing, chances are greater that they will become ungrateful wastrels. I am for helping people to help themselves, but not for giving handouts just to try to make them equal. Ain't likely to happen.

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      peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      What do you mean by the past?
      Today there is a greater inequality gap than ever before. My parents could buy a house when they were just starting out. Something I couldn't do. Now, if you finished your study you have a huge debt and no money to buy a house. Both parents have to work to earn enough for rent or mortgage and starting a family is a luxury.
      Life is far more expensive than 50 years ago.

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         Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I second that, from being a boomer.  Life was so much easier as a young  man in the 70s and 80s.

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   Brenda Arledgeposted 2 years ago

   Believe it ir not, we are all equal.
   
   No one is better than anyone else.  We all are God's children.
   
   Certainly some of us have more advantages than others, but we should never think we are better than anyone else.
   
   What if Jesus asked you for help, and you turned him away?  He comes to us when we least expect him.
   
   There are no pros and cons....we all are human.
   
   We call it humanity.  Treat others as you should.

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      Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      +1
      
      Treat Others the Way You Want to Be Treated.

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         Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         So agree

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      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      100%

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      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      It makes more sense to me, when I use the word nature, rather than God. Laws of Nature's  I can understand.  Gods don't  play equal with human kind.

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         For a believer, God is everything.
         A believer always puts his trust in God, no matter what! To someone who is not a believer, this may sound cliché, but it is true!
         We must respect each other's points of views; for example, I have good friendships with atheists, which shows that I respect others point of views and beliefs. The only Golden rule for living life is to respect one another. Only if humans start to treat each other with kindness the world will become a peaceful land!
         
         “If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.” – Mother Teresa

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            Brenda Arledgeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            +1
            
            Yeppie!!

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               Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               I respect and accept all individual persons and their  freedoms of choices. I just do not understand the red flags of religion and politics. And do not find deep enough understanding or peace within both concepts or tools for my well being.  I can find  many good  bits from any group of people in the world and incorporated into my world. My world is a circle of love ones and the world is my family and humanity community. All we have in life  is what we give away.. I  just don't trust centroism of any kind because these acclaim absolute powers, always corrupt.

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                  Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  We are all different, but we are all one. Something holds us all together. Call it Nature, the Universe, or God, but I believe humanity should be respected in all circumstances
                  
                  ...And yes, about politics, I don't like it. It is one of the main reason humanity is dying. I never felt a connection with it. And for that, I am truly grateful.
                  
                  Stay Blessed!!!

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               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks, Bredz!

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      peterstreepposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      No we are not. Some persons are male, some are female some in between. some have red hair, some have black skin, some have asthma, some can run fast, some can compose amazing songs etc.
      We are all different and that's what makes us beautiful.

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         Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         +

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   Castlepalomaposted 2 years ago

   Like a EIQ, emotional and mental.
   Politician do have high IQs, yet lack ethics.

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