DeSantis vs. Venezuelan Migrants
So, is it too soon to talk about the issues. DeSantis is claiming they signed a consent form. The migrants are claiming they were lied to.
Does DeSantis have any legal exposure for his stunt of hiring a company to lure migrants from Texas to then ship to Massachusetts? In terms of charges or civil exposure?
De Santis is a liar. At its conception, it is clear that this was a political stunt at the expense of the vulnerable. In a statement, the Governor said that there was not much of an issue regarding migrants in Florida so he had them shipped like cargo via Texas. He is certainly a downside of living life in Florida.
So, he gets to squander my tax payer dollars in this state with political stunts? He can and should be held accountable on that basis.
Both Trump and De Santis need to be vanquished from the political scene. And as I always say, Rightwingers suck.......I see a civil rights law firm representing 3 (all from one family) out of the 50 migrants that were bused to Martha Vineyard filed a federal class action lawsuit on Tuesday against Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. It appears the migrants allegedly signed a document to travel --
"The form reads: "I agree to hold the benefactor or its designed representatives harmless of all liability arising out of or in any way relating to any injuries and damages that may occur during the agreed transport to locations outside of Texas until the final destination in Massachusetts."
I found a good article in regard to the lawsuit
https://weartv.com/news/local/marthas-v … v-desantis
I could not even guess if the allegations can be proved or if the case will be thrown out as a frivolous lawsuit. Does DeSantis have any legal exposure? That is yet to be seen.Yeah, I read about the 'consent form' as well and am eager to see it. It sounds like your standard waiver for injuries sustained during the actual travel. It does not address the fraud in luring them away from Texas though.
And I just saw this quote on Facebook that made me laugh: 'If that's the game, maybe it's time to start sending busloads of banned books to Florida schools.'
I support the border state governors' transportation actions. I think they highlight the hypocrisy of the complaining mayors. It's a plus that they are making this issue more visible to the 'unaffected' public.
However, DeSantis's move looks different. Because of the details, (primarily getting the immigrants from Texas—not removing them from Florida), his actions do look like a political stunt. But, it could be a stunt that causes the Democrats to screw-up, (in the eyes of average Americans), their response.
I think the DC and NY mayors have already made the Dems look hypicritical to the general public, and the lawsuits are going to anger a lot of Americans. Especially when they hear that the Venezualan immigrants think they should get monetary damages.
This attack on DeSantis is going to hurt Democrats a lot more than it does DeSantis. Optics matter and these won't play well for the Democrats.
GAWhat do you find hypocritical in the responses from the mayors of the receiving cities?
They had bus loads or plane loads of people delivered to them, some in the middle of the night, with no warning at all. No time for any preparation or mobilization of resources. I believe those were the complaints and I feel they are pretty well founded.I understood the mayors' primary complaints were that they didn't have the resources to deal with the 'influx' of immigrants. They both asked for federal money. I think that sounds pretty hypocritical to a lot of border state folks. It does to me.
GANot hypocritical when Texas is receiving federal dollars for those immigrants that they are shipping to a city that isn't receiving any of those funds. If a state wants to relieve their burden of immigrants, then coordinate their arrival and send the federal money with them it's pretty easy.
What are the details of that Federal money? Is it pegged to a per-immigrant amount? Is it pegged to specific immigrant costs? Is it just a pay-to-take compensation cost? 'Here's some money and here are your immigrants?'
Your point feels like a bit of whataboutism to me.
GAFrom senator John Cornyn's website of Texas:
The FY 2022 Omnibus Appropriations Bill:. Supports border communities in Texas that absorb the costs from the surge of illegal immigration by directing $130 million to the Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA) to compensate these communities.
You can go back on his website and see that for many, many years he has sought and received Federal funding for care of immigrants.
Did you really think they were doing this out of the goodness of their heart?
I have absolutely no issue with them receiving money so that their communities can do what is needed and the costs aren't absorbed by their citizens solely. But if you're shipping them elsewhere then you probably don't need all of those funds.
https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/content/n … eans-texasYour closing thought has a hole. What if those communities are already overburdened—even with that Fed money? Your thought says that an amount that is already insufficient for a problem should be reduced because steps were taken to not be more overburdened.
Am I looking at this wrong? Did your 'look-about' find any indication the Fed money is based on any per-immigrant criteria?
GAYou've made a good point. It's a valid point and I am unsure if the money they receive covers all that is needed. I am also not aware of how these funds are calculated. I may take a trip down that rabbit hole.
I see that cities who are taking on some of these immigrants could receive some aid.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … ederal-aid
Your link offers no explanation of where the funds would be spent. I also noted this --- "The Senate voted on the Fiscal Year 2022 Omnibus Appropriations bill, which funds the federal government through September 30, 2022. U.S. "
Have the funds been spent?
I have found that ---- "(CNN)The state of Texas has spent more than $12 million busing migrants to Washington, DC, and New York who crossed into the state from Mexico, according to figures from the Texas Division of Emergency Management.
A state government spreadsheet obtained by CNN through a Freedom of Information Act request shows that, as of August 9, Texas has paid $12,707,720.92 to Wynne Transportation, the charter service that is taking migrants to the two cities.
Republican Gov. Greg Abbott's office has said migrants are transported out of state only with their written permission. It is not clear what other options have been offered to the migrants. Abbott's office did not immediately reply to a request for comment from CNN on Tuesday. In a news release Friday, Abbott's office said that "the busing mission is providing much-needed relief to our overwhelmed border communities."
It is usually the responsibility of released migrants to cover the cost of their travel throughout the US as their asylum cases are pending in court. However the state-chartered border buses have been providing free rides to the north-bound asylum-seekers for months.'
Texas has solicited private donations to help pay for the cost of the bus trips, but the state had only received $167,828 as of August 17. At a news conference in April announcing the program, Abbott acknowledged taxpayers were likely to end up with part of the bill."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/30/politics … index.html
So, it appears the migrant as a rule must pay for their own travel throughout the US.
Did he not offer free travel to migrants to destinations away from the Border towns? Did he force these people or did he give them free travel? Looks like free travel to me.Well once the money is turned over to Texas then I suppose it's in their hands but Senator Cornyn's website for decades provides information on large sums of money they've received. Yes, not a lot on what they do with it. It has sort of been broken down in some general ways. I would have to say he's been very effective in securing large sums of money for the state.
The real issue isn't the cost of the bus rides it's the manner in which all of this was done. I don't know how it's possible for anyone to view this as anything other than political theater. You don't just round up a bus full of immigrants and send them to a so-called "sanctuary City" as a surprise under the cover of night. If these people had any morality at all they would have at least given a heads up to officials in these cities. I'm sorry, cruelty is the point with some of these governors.
I see this is a social issue with you Faye.
I don't in any respect find anything wrong with what DeSantis or Abbott have done, and I assume will continue to do. In the end, I truely feel these migrants will have good opportunities to find jobs and did not have to pay for their travel, which I would assume was an incentive for them. Do, you feel many have lots of cash to travel? Do you feel any were forced to travel?
Hopefully, DeSantis and Abbott will provide information on the buses to come. This would be a fir thing to do.I find it the height of hypocrisy when someone who puts himself out there as the arbiter of morality In his state does something this cruel to other human beings. If his only desire was to get them to another destinations then officials at that destination could have and should have been warned but why weren't they?? It did not need to be handled in this way and really it was only done as a stunt. For the spotlight to be focused on Mr DeSantis.
You're perfectly okay with the surprise aspect? The end justifies the means? No, not in my book.
Additionally, he put these folks on an island. Let that sink in. How many opportunities do you think exists there once the temperature drops below 30?
Let me remind the Christians here
"Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me" – Matthew 25:31-46"If his only desire was to get them to another destinations then officials at that destination could have and should have been warned but why weren't they?"
That should be obvious; if they were warned, then it wasn't soon enough. If it was soon enough then there is sufficient time to prevent it from happening.
Fact of the matter is that these blue "sanctuary" cities and states are most happy to tout their morality while flouting American law...as long as it is not they that are paying the price.If folks on the other end would have tried to prevent it then that would be on them. That would be a bad look, wouldn't it? They weren't even given the opportunity.
How about if the reverse starts happening? Many large cities have an abundance of homeless. Should those Mayors start busing them to sleepy little red towns? Come on now this is ridiculous. Government these days resembles an elementary school playground.
Gee if we want to play by those rules I'd like to see NYC mayor Roundup a few bus loads and drop them off on Mr DeSantis' block.
"I find it the height of hypocrisy when someone who puts himself out there as the arbiter of morality In his state does something this cruel to other human beings."
I do not see it cruel to ask adult human beings if they would like to travel to another state Free. He did not twist anyone's arm. These are people that traveled to the US to ask for asylum and work. I am not sure why you find his offer to travel cruel.
"Additionally, he put these folks on an island. Let that sink in. How many opportunities do you think exists there once the temperature drops below 30?"
We have winters in many states, do you feel we all stop working? Have you ever been to Martha's Vineyard? Marthas Vinyard is a great place to visit all year round. I find your statement funny. Do you feel all migrants hope to settle in warm climates?
Oh boo hoo, the lovers of illegal entry need to put their money where their mouths are. They are being put to the test and failing miserably!
I have seen your source. It is no respect gives one an idea of what FEMA will spend the 130 million on. It would be nice to know the details. Is the money for travel, housing, or food, or what is it designated for?
The border towns are overflowing at this point, with the situation now having some living in the streets.Well here's an example of just one of the border towns getting assistance I have found several others but I don't want to overburden.
"Villalobos’ message is simple: “If they need our help, then we need the funding. We are not in the business of immigration. We do not budget for immigration.”
Villalobos and McAllen’s assistant city manager, Jeff Johnston, said they received about $30 million from the federal government over the past year and that they’ll need more than that to be ready to handle the coming influx. The Department of Homeland Security confirmed the amount, and a spokesperson said the agency “greatly values the partnership of communities along the Southwest border, and regularly engages with elected officials, local leaders and non-governmental organizations.”
McAllen Texas was given $1.65 million in funds from the Federal Emergency Management Agency to handle migration during April, according to the mayor’s office"
https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject. … -rcna23870
Why? Do the border states not receive federal money to assist them? Why wouldn't other states who are now getting additional migrants then ask for some of those resources?
That answer is already in the thread, but basically, it boils down to 'because I said so.' (which is as non-productive as getting sidetracked with this 'compensation' argument. It has nothing to do with the actions of the issue)
GAYeah, I've seen the replies. The federal government should start reallocating the monies since so many migrants are now going to other states.
So many? You are racing FayettevilleFaye for that "Rich" trophy, aren't you?
Border states are getting 5000 per day, compared to 'other' states getting 50 - 2000 in total. Yeah, 'so many' is richer. You win. ;-)
GAGetting? You sure about that? How many of those 5,000 get deported right away under Title 8 and 42? How many are actually processed for asylum claims and given court dates?
Beats me. Do you think examined totals would change the point of the comparison?
GA
"This attack on DeSantis is going to hurt Democrats a lot more than it does DeSantis. Optics matter and these won't play well for the Democrats."
Oh really?
This entire DeSantis matter was despicable, at least that should be the case as determined by saner minds.
How is it that any Republican seems to be entitled to an automatic coat of teflon no matter the offense?
This was a stupid stunt by this Governor and he will be held accountable and that has nothing to do with Democrats, tell me why it would?Did you think I was defending Desantis? I wasn't. I'm talking about the reality that your view might not be the majority view of 30% of the US voters, (the Dems), much less the 40% that are not Republicans.
There might be more than half of Americans that don't see it as you do. You can argue whether that view is right or wrong, but I am arguing that view will be what's seen by moderate voters. Counting on your 'rightness' won't be protection against the reality of the majority perception.
I am saying your party's responses are going to reinforce that perception, rather than change it.
GAI do disagree, though....
Do you really think moderate voters are not going to see this stunt as a hit below the belt? I believe that even if you are neutral in regards to the issue, you are going to see it as an affront and a brazen misuse of tax dollars that was totally unjustified.
The only real supporters are the hardcore Trumpers and their opinions and hopefully they are small enough and inconsequential to not affect the bigger picture.Relative to DeSantis, maybe some moderates might have that 'below the belt' view, but regarding Texas, I think moderates will be supportive.
Hopefully, it was the DeSantis part that you think only has hardcore Trumpian support because I support Abbot's actions. Maybe I'm a closet Trump supporter?
GABoth Governors are despicable, but Abbott is just a little less guilty because the problem directly affects the southern border of Texas and he is sending a message to Washington, even though it was a dumb communications medium.
DeSantis had no excuse as he was playing politics and I hope that he is sued into the Stone Age.
Exactly.
100% Correct.
If the Obama & Oprah types that have properties on that island had shown overwhelming kindness and support for those 50 migrants...
Well, DeSantis would look like an idiot today.
But the elites living on that island showed their true colors.
And all of America saw it... there is no taking it back... there is no, oh, but DeSantis is so cruel for doing it.
It was a simple statement: "Get this trash off our island! Now!"How did they show their true colors Ken??
I've read and seen nothing but reports of how these folks rallied around these immigrants in the middle of the night to get them food, shelter and clothing.This entire conversation blows my mind --- these liberal blue cities complain due to buses of Migrants, maybe 50 on a bus... How would they deal with 7,000 a day needing shelter, food, and to be processed into the country? Not to mention fishing the dead out of the Rio Grand, and out of the back of vans, and children presenting without an adult.
So sick of listening to all woe is me.....
And you're right instead of being welcoming they rushed them off the island. This is so hypocritical.
DeSantis was brilliant, and I hope he keeps the planes and buses coming.All they wanted was notice, is it really so much to ask?? You really think it's okay to drop off people in the middle of the night with no notice? Just make that statement.
Would it be brilliant for these so-called blue cities to reciprocate with bus loads of homeless?? We could have a good tit for tat going. This forum is really souring me on human nature. Heck, NYC you go for it. Fill up as many bus loads of homeless as you can and send them right on down to Mr DeSantis home. Makes sense right?If notice was given, we would have seen a real media production vis the Democrats in all their indignant glory. Biden flew many to their destinations at night.
The Homeless don't seem to be looking to work, or escaping their country. So, maybe leave them where they are in cities that promote their lifestyles, Blue sanctuary cities.If notice was given, we don't know what the response would have been. That's a fact. But notice should have been given especially from the party that values the sanctity of life. I think a lot of the homeless would benefit from being out of the cold NYC Winters. From a humanitarian stance, I'm all for moving our homeless down to Florida. It seems that Mr DeSantis pro-life and religious background would welcome this. I believe people actually froze to death last year. How can you ignore this?
The manner in which your party politicizes religion is so disingenuous. You're going to have to be consistent across the platform to have any credibilityThere will be people freezing this winter, no doubt, thanks to Joe Biden screwing up our energy independence. Escalating prices everywhere you turn, so you have made a good point, it will take conservatives to save the day, per usual!
And how are conservatives doing that? How will conservatives and the religious right save the day? I mean let's move from the embryonic state to the full-fledged adult. How exactly are you saving the day,?
April 2020 - Trump negotiates a 20% cut to global oil production, including reducing the US output to match some of the other large countries commitments to the deal.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detai … n%20b%2Fd.
Energy independence was screwed long before Biden was in the picture.
" I believe people actually froze to death last year. How can you ignore this"
I am not sure what you mean. I have not ignored the plight of the migrants or the homeless. I certainly take offense at your off-the-shoulder comment, assuming I ignore people freezing to death. By the way, what have you done to help the homeless in cold cities? I don't need your assumptions in regard to my empath for the less fortunate.
I don't find anything wrong with what DeSantis did, he offered free travel to adults that knew where they were headed and signed waves. They made the choice. You seem to think these people are being used, are victims. I don't feel they are, they are adults that made a choice to relocate to America. They then made to choice to travel out of Texas. No one forced them to choose to travel. They certainly are not less intelligent due to being from another country, they are capable of making decisions on where they would like to relocate.These migrants say they were misled. No one has made any judgment about their intelligence whatsoever.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/16/us/p … eyard.htmlReally --- A family of three out of 50.
A group of Venezuelan migrants on Tuesday filed a lawsuit in federal court against Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis and other Florida officials who took credit for flying them to Martha's Vineyard, alleging that they were lured onto flights through gifts and false offers of jobs and services.
Three migrants from Venezuela represented by civil rights attorneys in Massachusetts accused DeSantis of violating several federal laws and the U.S. Constitution, asking the federal district court in Boston to prohibit Florida from "inducing immigrants to travel across state lines by fraud and misrepresentation."
I have spent enough time on this. I shared my opinion, and it is apparent we don't agree. I will be the first to say I agree to disagree.
I'm sure the homeless would prefer a Florida winter over a NYC winter if offered the opportunity. And what notice would have done is given people in that state the absolute right to handle these immigrants in the best way possible for their own state. That's the part that is douchey. You've got a party saying state's right, state's rights...and then trying to dictate their own brand of immigration politics to other states.
And creating this fake narrative that moving them off a remote island that will in no way get them the immigration representation or access to the courts they will need is saying that the 'libs want to get them away from so and so' is just plain moronic fabrication.Val, I do agree that choosing to drop these 50 human beings off on a resort island for the rich was a political ploy. But I feel the ploy was to just bring awareness to the border crowding.
Did it work, it certainly has people talking about the problems on social media at this point. So, I guess it did draw attention to the problem the border states are dealing with.You know what really bothers me about this? Is the fact that Mr DeSantis holds himself out as sort of the guardian of morality and Christian values. And he treats these asylum seekers in a very unchristian manner.
Using them for his own political gain. He needs to stop with the religious schtick.
Yes, the Oprah and Obamas (is there a reason that you use successful African Americans as your example, does it represent some sort of resentment?) and others living there have shown kindness and humanity even through they were alarmed and broadsided by the stunts of coarse and savage men. We have this issue with the government of Venezuela, yet treat their political refugees like animals. Only conservatives are the primary racist and xenophobic crowd, and they wonder why I consistently deny them any support.....
So your assessment is incorrect, the people of Martha's Vineyard did what they could to help
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2022/0 … tie-peeler
DeSantis vs. Venezuelan migrants!?
First off who are they to get a say and who got to them? They crossed over illegally, they should be detained!
But, that's not going to happen, so why NOT send them to the Sanctuary states. I remember the Philly Mayor singing and dancing about giving sanctuary to illegals. They live for this stuff, apparently...it makes them sing and dance! So what's the big deal? DeSantis is simply brokering deals between illegals and lefty sanctuary States who have repeatedly told us all how much this means to them to take in illegals. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. DeSantis doesn't share in those feelings.
It is a win-win, all the way around!"They crossed over illegally, they should be detained!"
They did not cross illegally. They were in the country legally awaiting asylum hearings. These folks were waiting in Texas on top of it, not Florida.They crossed over illegally. We are a sovereign Nation and we have immigration laws which must be followed at ALL times. You don't get to go to front of the line because you found a short cut.
But since this Administration doesn't really care about our sovereignty or our laws, why not send them to the Sanctuary States?
Since the laws were being followed, why wouldn't these governors:
A.) Coordinate with the federal government before sending out migrants
B.) Coordinate with the other states to ensure the migrants are being met by those that can help them
C.) Send them to all the states to help share the burden
This is just another example of the right trying to do damage to another group of Americans, as well as to legal migrants. It's something much of America is tired of.What "much of America" is tired of, Democratic Administrations who allow illegals to cross over, without a clue as to who they are or what their true intentions are! Much of America is tired of the lawlessness, whether it comes from the unsecured/unprotected southern border or from these continual smash and grabs/looting of businesses/crime on steroids...in democratically-run cities from coast to coast.
It is time to put the adults back in charge again!
I agree --- last I knew our side of the Rio Grand was not an official border crossing. Once relieved they can wait legally for their asylum hearings.
These Venezuelan migrants were cleared under our immigration laws, the same laws that have existed for decades. Tens of thousands of migrants who cross the border illegally from Mexico are released in the United States each month with notices to appear in immigration court to pursue asylum or on humanitarian parole with requirements to report regularly to immigration authorities. Migrants may seek asylum if they enter the country illegally under U.S. and international law, and U.S.
This is nothing new.
We have laws, walking into America at any other place but an official border crossing is illegal The Rio Grand is not and never has been an official border crossing.
The interesting part about this, if it is determined that these people, who were legally allowed to be in the country as they were awaiting asylum hearings, were victims of a crime by DeSantis, they cannot be deported because they will be granted a U-visa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux3Oy3NRZic
As to sanctuary states, those unwilling to work with the federal government to deport those already here, it's interesting to hear the right's new definition that that means they want as many migrants as the border states want to give them. Fun when they redefine words to fit their own narratives.He did broker a travel deal. I was just reading (which I did not know) migrants are responsible to pay their own travel expenses. Yet, (and I have not looked into this yet, and Will) Biden has been sending migrants in planes, buses, and trains all over the country. Are we as taxpayers paying for this or are the migrants paying to ride on Joe's planes, buses, and trairns?
I have seen it described as they must pay if they, (or their sponsors), can. If not, we do pay for it.
GAYes , President Biden transports these folks but under different circumstances. Like earlier administrations, it transports migrants between detention facilities, often on their way to being removed from the country.
"U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement had more than 4,800 domestic flights in the last year, including 434 in August, according to Witness to the Border, a group that criticizes U.S. enforcement. The top five destinations from March to August were: Alexandria, Louisiana; Laredo, Texas; Phoenix; and Harlingen and El Paso in Texas. ICE also buses many migrants."
https://masslive.com/news/2022/09/are-t … ained.html
If wishes were horses beggars would ride, this about sums up Biden's response. Threatening without substance is meaningless, what if Putin does use a nuclear device? Will Biden also use a nuclear device on Russia? It will be a world war and Biden knows that Russia has the weaponry to obliterate 50 US cities at one go and so has the USA. It will be back to the stone age. So he is just talking like his latest statement that US soldiers will defend Taiwan. He should explain how the USA or its allies lost every war that they fought after 1945. What makes him think he will win in Ukraine or Taiwan, perhaps he is plainly incompetent , my wish ? Donald `Trump; he would have sorted all these problems. Remember theAbraham accord?
I don't think you really understood the nature of my post. This doesn't really have much to do with Biden currently.
Where do you get this idea of Donald Trump's supreme competence? He can't even avoid arguing about his seating arrangements at the Late Queens funeral. Your wasting your time, Emge, Trump is a jerk, through and through.
He framed the stunt as an act of service: “We are not a sanctuary state,” he said. “And it’s better to be able to go to a sanctuary jurisdiction. And yes, we will help facilitate that transport for you to be able to go to greener pastures.”
So this includes using Florida taxpayer dollars to scoop up immigrants from TEXAS and fly them around the country?
This decision was a despicable political maneuver. Mr. DeSantis has openly exploited migrants, including children, for political gain. This is indefensible. Especially from a man who portrays himself as an arbiter of morality at every turn . The truth is that Mr DeSantis and his supporters are apparently unconcerned about the immorality of his actions.
And where are the Republicans who only recently were asking that Venezuelan migrants in the United States have their temporary protected status extended? The hypocritical silence of figures like Marco Rubio is deafening.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … estigationFirst I apologize to Val, and going off his interesting subject he asked a very good legal question, on the class action suit that has been brought against DeSantis in regard to sending migrants to Martha Vinyard.
I truely think McConnell says it best. I guess all states need to buck up, and take in migrants, especially states that can truely offer lots of jobs for the migrants...
"Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky applauded Republican governors' transportation of migrants for showing "well-to-do blue enclaves" a glimpse of the border crisis.
McConnell made the remarks Tuesday on the Senate floor in reference to recent relocation programs by Florida Gov. Ron Desantis, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott and more.
"Out of desperation, a few governors along our southern border are now giving some Democrat-run states and cities just a tiny, tiny taste of what border communities have been enduring, literally, for years," McConnell said"Hey I guess so, if Florida taxpayers are willing to foot the bill to import individuals from Texas, layover in Florida and then ship them around the country. Send some to Arkansas. Ron DeSantis can act as travel agents for these folks.
They'd rather have their "own the libs " moment then to come together in real problem solving.You are so far off subject...Perhaps you should start a thread? Val asked a great question. You're beating a dead horse in my view.
That 'come together and problem solve' thought is rich—as a finger pointed at the Republicans. You have three more fingers pointing back at you.
It is an 'own the libs' moment because it should be. DC and NY are the "libs" in the eyes of a lot of Americans. You don't have to be political to see the hypocrisy. Complaining that you don't like the 'look' doesn't help.
Beating on DeSantis is just an effort to deflect attention away from the problem that prompted the action. I think a large part of America also sees this as I do.
GAWhat you get wrong about these moves isn't that Democratic states wouldn't help shoulder the burden, but that the border states, and now Florida, are not coordinating the transfer of migrants and dropping them off in random places with no heads up to states to prepare.
Most blue states are more than happy to take on an equal burden. That is fair. What is disappointing is the purposeful deception and lack of communication just to try and get some publicity.Self-serving, or not, DeSantis is a separate issue for me. Other than not thinking his actions are illegal, they stink of pure politics. The other governors have cause and the politics of it is a benefit that neither side would, or should, ignore.
I think those governors might even benefit by announcing the details to target cities. It would add a bit of stewing time for affected communities, (like news talk about expected buses going to Delaware). They would still get the relief and would have the added benefit of more publicity.
As for Blue states willingness to share the burden, so far I don't think DC or NY, or Martha's Vineyard has shown that to be their mindset.
The very public, and I think valid perception is 'yes, but not in my backyard.'
GA"As for Blue states willingness to share the burden, so far I don't think DC or NY, or Martha's Vineyard has shown that to be their mindset. The very public, and I think valid perception is 'yes, but not in my backyard.'"
You misunderstand. Imagine New York sending their illegal immigrants down to Ron DeSantis' house. Is that where Florida puts migrants to help them? Is that where they have the resources to best help them until their asylum cases can be heard? That the governor of another state single-handedly makes the decision that affects something inside a different state is the issue I am referring to.
It's not that the migrants are unwelcome, it's that some moron from Florida put them in an area that wasn't best suited to assist them, while purposefully withholding the information that they are on the way, where they will be dropped off (which often is not an ideal location to assist these families).
It's petty spite, especially given that these migrants weren't even in Florida to begin with. Let alone he's hurting his own party by shipping them to a liberal state, but one that has a GOP governor.I don't think I misunderstand, and I've already spoken to the DeSantis part. So I'll leave this where it is until the issue develops more. We will both hear and see a lot more in the next 50 days.
GAWith all due respect, that you see them moved from a remote island in Martha's Vineyard to somewhere better suited to provide them the necessary resources as 'not in my backyard' is something I definitely think you misunderstand.
Alright, let's address that 'remote island' and the inference that it is a small isolated place unequipped to deal with an unexpected influx of 48 people.
The 'Vineyard' is the third largest East Coast island. Its 'remoteness' is a 7-mile ferry or air service. One might not be able to just walk to whatever city wanted, (the ferry does carry pedestrian traffic), but it's not 'Patagonia' 'remote.'
Its population of around 20k has the physical capability to expand to over 100,000 in season. That's a lot of ready-to-go infrastructure—aleady in place. It has over a hundred hotels and inns.
Its housing units are almost half rentals—which would be available in the off-seasons, (like now?) That's a lot of available bedrooms. Enough to accommodate 80k, (or so), in full season, but not enough for 48 people in the off-season?
Yet, the news presentation, and your rationalization, are of a tiny community physically unable to really help those immigrants. I'm sticking with the thought that the Vineyards' quick 'relocation' decision was undoubtedly a NIMBY response.
GAVal, Do you think it is unrealistic that MV to help 50 people, with temporary housing food, and jobs? Actually, I feel that this great tourist town could offer many jobs in the hospitality sector.
Can the hardcore Trump supporters and far Right wingers just agree that it was completely wrong the way these immigrants were used to surprise those in largely Democratic cities? Just a stunt "own the libs"
No one is disputing that we can't have a dispersal of immigrants to the country. There can be coordination and cooperation, that's what adults do.It was a stunt that clearly brought all the problems of the broken border into the light. It was in my view a good ploy. It caused a stir that is being talked about, and I think it worked out well for Republicans, due to Democratic representatives being made to look like hypocrites in some fashion.
I can appreciate fighting fire with fire in this case.
In my view, I am worried about all the horrendous problems at the border,
the drugs pouring in and that these drugs are the number one killer of our citizens 18 -45
I am worried about the terrorist being caught, but more about the ones that are not apprehended
I am worried about the many that die making the long journey
I am worried about the sheer number of migrants that we are taking into the country.
So, I can truely say I don't care about this small social cause some have taken up about a couple of thousand immigrants entering Blue states.
I always am amazed at how much of what is going on at the border is ignored.Encourage your tribe to come to the table.
From where I sit, I'm no more worried about those from other countries than I am about the guy down the street who shoots neighborhood animals for fun. From a libertarian perspective I don't have a problem with people traveling freely as long as they're peaceful. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible.
Possible, sure. But the resources for them for their asylum trials are likely non-existent on a vacation island like that. And the hospitality sector dries up after the summer, so DeSantis dropped them at a time when those jobs aren't there as they are seasonal. Next time, have him drop them in May.
How could they have no resources when they list themselves as a sanctuary city, vowing to not only protect illegals from US laws but to support and care for them as well?
It's about mobilizing resources on a moment's notice. These people were sent to them with no coordination, no notice. Do you really think that's fair to the people on these planes, the ones possibly with medical issues? Was it really that difficult for states to communicate? This is really getting ridiculous.
Could you point to where sanctuary cities have claimed they would 'support and care for them as well?' Because that's the part I see so many far-right commenters inventing out of thin air and showing their own failings to understand what being a sanctuary state actually means.
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. … s-overview
You are correct there are no EOIR immigration courts on the island, the closest is in Boston.
The island does have many thousand that live on the island year-round. However, I will agree the job situation would be limited. I am not sure if there is a shortage of workers in Martha's Vineyard. It would appear the people that handled the migrants felt there was not, and moved them to Cap Cod. I know there are agriculture jobs there, and hospitality jobs would also be available. So, hopefully, the migrants will find it a good place to settle.
I think we all agree his purpose was to make a political point.
https://www.justice.gov/eoir/eoir-immig … rt-listing
It's ok, I left it pretty general so we could go down tangents. There's a lot to unpack with this, from root causation, to federal versus state issues, to funding.
Its an unfortunate necessity to highlight the rampant hypocrisy and lies of this Administration.
The Administration lies to America and says there is no border problem, everything is under control.
Cities far away from the border claim they are sanctuary cities and anyone can come.
Leaders claim they care about being humane and treating immigrants fairly.
But when they show up in their neighborhoods, they call out the National Guard and have them removed with astounding haste.
You are correct, the immigrants are being used. But by whom?
These "leaders" say we should have no walls.
But they live in gated communities or on islands.
These "leaders" cry out against weapons.
But they have armed security protecting them 24/7.
These "leaders" say we need to share the burden.
As they give themselves raises, special healthcare, free transportation, etc.
DeSantis is putting a spotlight on where the true hypocrisy, corruption, and callousness is.I agree DeSantis has put a spotlight on hypocrisy. And I hope the buses and planes continue from Florida and Texas. These destinations have lots of jobs to offer illegal migrants.
You would like Florida to keep importing immigrants from Texas at taxpayers expense and chartering planes to fly them through the country?
If my state was being inundated by migrants, so it was an overburden on housing them, and they in some cases were roaming the streets... I would be pleased if the state legislators handled the problem. The Federal Government certainly is not slowing the flow of people that need to be relocated. So, yes, I would spend state money on such an emergency.
Biden is busing, flying, and using trains to relocate migrants. Your concern seems hyperbolic.
It would seem more should worry about the true problem we have 2.5 million that have entered and needed relocation, instead of the 50 that ended up in paradise. I will stop short, this kind of phony baloney that is clearly being pushed by left media sickens me --- YuckGovernor DeSantis didn't have any of his own immigrants apparently to board the freedom flight. He had to use his taxpayer dollars to get them from Texas. His flight originated in Texas, not Florida. I don't see how that's problem solving for the people of Florida?
I just appreciate the migrants being dispensed around the country where jobs are plentiful, and prevent more problems that border towns are having.
It's a big country, and plenty of jobs to fill throughout the country.
Tired of the social outcry over a couple of thousand migrants that signed a document to go to another state. These people are given a choice to travel. I would think many would be very happy to end up in New York, lots of great benefits due to it being a sanctuary city.The outcry is not due to the migrants. Again, it's the way in which these governors chose to do it. It was wrong and it would still be wrong if a Democratic Governor did the same. Fight for your team at all costs if you must but wrong is wrong. In the case of the Texas immigrants flown to Florida and then to Martha's vineyard, it looks like they were coerced. It looks as though they were lied to. Many of these people would end up in the larger cities anyway. Definitely more opportunity.
"the 50 migrants sent to Martha’s Vineyard were recruited by a Venezuelan migrant who received “a bird-dog fee” to lure the group onto planes “under false pretenses of being offered jobs” and “promises of a better life,” adding that the group was “exploited and hoodwinked.” Some migrants claimed that an organizer involved in the stunt—a woman reportedly named “Perla,” according to some—promised them jobs, several months of free housing, and legal papers upon arrival."
We can disperse immigrants, we can do it the right way.
Disagree. DeSantis is calling attention to a real problem which has been virtually ignored, until now - now that he has forwarded this particular group on to Martha's Vineyard.
It's definitely helping that goal. And the right needs this issue to be front and center since they cannot have Roevember or January 6 be the focal points heading into November.
It might hurt him to be arguing economy with him spending 30x the cost to fly them private versus commercial though. The argument will be, well if the economy is so bad, why is your state able to waste half a million dollars of taxpayer money on political stunts that didn't even pertain to your own state?If Republicans hair is on fire about this issue then why not come together in Congress and work on comprehensive immigration reform? President Biden from day one of his presidency has put forward a plan. It is at least a starting point.
It seems that it would be a lot more productive than using your taxpayers dollars to charter planes and buses.This satement stood out to me --- "If Republicans' hair is on fire about this issue then why not come together in Congress and work on comprehensive immigration reform? "
I must ask, what bills in regard to immigration have the Democrats brought to the floor, under Biden?
And what plan has Biden put forth? I have seen no plan, in fact, I don't feel he even addresses the issue as a problem.
Here is the link to his plan --- What has he tried to accomplish in this plan?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … on-system/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- … SKBN2AI2AI
Where can you go when you have no support from the other side? No one even reaching out to forge a compromise?Oh, I misunderstood your comment. Your finder was pointed at Republicans was it not? Just pointing out Dems have not offered anything either.
As I said, I feel if republicans take the majority, we will see the problem worked, and hopefully somewhat solved.Why do they need to take the majority? Even if they did, it would be slim. Why can't congress come together to solve something now since everyone's hair is on fire?
"If Republicans' hair is on fire about this issue then why not come together in Congress and work on comprehensive immigration reform? "
This statement seemed as if you were pointing at the Republicans for our broken immigration.
Yes, neither have done anything. I have good faith that if Republicans take the majority they will step up with good reform. Many are running on this problem, and hopefully will step up and work on immigration. I think many politicians have learned, we the people want promises kept, and have come to disrespect the status quo politician.I am not at all pointing to specifically the Republicans for the state of immigration. It has gone on for literally decades. We have had no comprehensive reform in decades.
It is the fault of every Congress since then that could not put their Petty partisan bickering aside and hammer out some real solutions.
I find it hard to believe there is such a hoopla about 50 immigrants showing up in Massachusetts. Anyone wonder why the 3.5 million Biden has waved across the border into states that have repeatedly begged him to secure the border aren't getting as much attention?
What policy exactly and specifically has President Biden put into effect that his "waved" people across the border? I'm finding it difficult to discern between Mr Trump's immigration policy and that which is still in place currently. Please, enlighten.
You can certainly claim Biden has not changed policy but enforcement has changed. If you don't enforce a policy do you really have a policy? Isn't the lack of enforcement a policy change?
Candidate Biden stating those seeking entry should 'surge the border' certainly left the impression that he welcomed the idea of open borders. He has, on camera, called undocumented workers a gift.
You can't be ignorant to the fact that the governors of border states have repeatedly begged the administration to close the border, with silence in response from Washington. Nor can those seeking entry illegally.
You can't be ignorant of the fact that Biden has publicly attempted to demonize border agents. This sends a clear message to those seeking entry illegally.
We know the Biden administration has released 1 million people who were apprehended. We know the average wait time is 7 years and, on average, 90% of those released do not show up for immigration court to gain legal status. Those seeking illegal entry know this also.
And we all know the estimates of those crossing illegally who weren't caught. That gives hope to those still headed this way and, with the White House still pretending there is no problem; that, effectively, waives people north to our southern border.When did Mr Biden ever encourage anyone to surge the border? Specifically? Can you give me an example of how he demonized border agents? Do you have a credible source that says 90% don't show up for their Court dates?
From your NPR source regarding the remain in Mexico policy:
"Nearly 5,800 people were subject to the policy from December through June, a modest number. Nicaraguans account for the largest number, with others from Cuba, Colombia and Venezuela."
This is not a very significant number.
DHS officials said asylum-seekers waiting in Mexico for their appointments in the U.S. immigration court would be allowed to cross the border on the day of their hearings and stay in the United States while awaiting an outcome. Most work while they're waiting for their response. The Supreme Court did make a ruling in favor of allowing President Biden to remove the policy. You have a problem with that?
Deleted
Or perhaps you don't have examples? Gaslighting? I don't think you're using the term properly. Willfully blind to what? Accepting your opinions?
Which examples/sources, yours?Otherwise, IF they don't make your case, they are illegitimate sources? We know how this works.
Illegals not showing up for their court dates has been an ongoing issue; no one is making anything up, it is a fact!
Trump's plan to have illegals remain in Mexico until their court date, was a winning plan!! BUT, as with every other winning plan, the Dems come along and blow it up. That's what they do, they destroy winning plans. They destroy livelihoods; our paychecks aren't taking us nearly as far as they were during the last administration, mortgage rates have doubled, retirement savings are being used up before retirement! Energy costs are through the roof, we aren't at peace in the world and where is Biden's focus...on ridiculous climate change garbage. It is mind-blowing!! But you all keep nitpicking facts in order to somehow make Joe Biden look semi-presidential - it's not working!Just before the MPP was ended, there were less than 8, 000 in the program. We're not talking about a huge program.
As far as "nitpicking" facts, I prefer that my opinions are based on fact from as many reputable sources as possible. That's my prerogative as is yours to believe whatever you would like.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/08/26 … xico-ends/The fact is, it was working and Biden undid it for no good reason, other than Trump was responsible for it. That's a fact, that's truth!
Biden's best invitation was catch and release. This is what is being practiced today, and from the first day, Biden came into office. This is the very best invite any migrant could wish for. His other dog whistled, he stopped the construction on the wall, he tried to stop waiting in Mexico, and showed migrants he would fight in our courts to rid them of that policy, he also fought article 42 in the courts.
These gestures were all invitations. Migrants knew they had a US president that appeared to be fighting for open borders. In my view, they knew that this would be the best time to make their way to our borders.
It is the reason the migrants are flowing in from over 60 nations.
He simply opened the border with catch and release.
I think his statements about the 'whipping' border agents count as demonizing.
"I promise you those people will pay,"
". . . will face punishment for their "outrageous" actions."
". . . called the images and footage "horrific" and "horrible."
GAThat was horrible! A slew of clueless people jumped in on the "whipping" story and almost instantly Joe Biden jumped in with them!
Insulting them with such an accusatory tone...agents who were simply attempting to do their job to the best of their ability.
Did they ever get an apology, I wonder!? I hope there are lawsuits in the works.Here's some info on the report based on the investigation that has concluded on this instance.
"four Border Patrol personnel have been recommended for disciplinary action for their conduct"
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/09/11106585 … rio-grandeNo one is arguing that. Your line of thought is confusing. Note AB used the word "them".
AB comment -- Insulting them with such an accusatory tone...agents who were simply attempting to do their job to the best of their ability.
I don't think anyone thus far accused Biden of judging all border
agents.
And it has been reported the agent was exonerated, yet still punished.Your blurb sounds bad, what was that conduct they were disciplined for? That's rhetorical of course, I'm sure you checked this out deeper than your link.
Your link notes part of that conduct being blocking immigrant forward movement with their horses. That sounds silly. Do they dismount to try to stop them or do they not use their horses at all and just let them pass?
That's a weak 'conduct' criticism. Another mention was that in the midst of the melee that we all saw on video—one of the agents yelled at an immigrant. That charge is even sillier.
I recall looking around after the investigation report came out and the 'conduct' already mentioned is the worst of it. Other issues were found with office and communication procedures, surely not something to criticize the horseback agents for.
GAYou are diverting once again. We were discussing Biden condemning these particular agents before knowing all the facts from the investigation.
Now you jump to the outcome of the investigation. The conversation did not touch on the agent's guilt, only Biden condemning them without facts.
Was this the conversation you were looking for from the get-go?
Hard to have a conversation with someone that continually diverts from the subject.
So, were you going for -- well Biden was right in his assumption in regards to the agents, and that they were punished, as he said they would be?
I guess all turned out well, accuse, look for evidence. In my view, this is a common habit among Democrats in Washington.You may find it diverting from my conversation with you but it isn't a diversion from the original. I don't want to go back and find that post from "learn to live" or live to learn I don't even know at this point but it doesn't really make much of a difference it's getting too convoluted. But my response was really a direct response to a statement made by that poster that categorized President Biden as "demonizing" border agents. Maybe the original poster will clear it up in terms of what he or she really meant. I took it in a general manner, it was stated as a generalization from my point of view but hey of course I could be wrong. Folks are prone to some sweeping generalizations at times.
I do agree with you that President Biden should have held his tongue with the harsh criticism until an investigation was completed but that really wasn't at the heart of the original conversation.
"Can you give me an example of how he demonized border agents? Do you have a credible source that says 90% don't show up for their Court dates?"
You are kidding are you not? I suggest you watch this youtube. Biden jumped to the conclusion the Border agents were guilty of "strapping migrants", and stated, "Those people will pay !"
He accused them, condemned them, and promised punishment.
In my view, he is not responsible for his own thoughts due to cognitive problems. He is compulsive with his words. He says things without thinking.
But please don't infer he has not demonized border agents. he did, as did VP Harris, and several other big-mouthed Democrat Congress persons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs8-BTXYXqI
Biden condemns Border Patrol agents’ treatment of Haitian migrants, vows they will face consequences
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/24/biden-c … l-rio.html
Biden Condemns Border Patrol Treatment of Haitian Migrants as Expulsions Continue
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/us/p … rants.htmlI think that criticism was leveled at those particular agents and not all agents? Because he made a statement about one particular incident it means he condemns the whole entire force of border agents?
Is there evidence of him being critical of agents as a whole?
I can criticize the actions of certain police officers but in no way does that mean I find the entirety of the police force is a problem."Because he made a statement about one particular incident it means he condemns the whole entire force of border agents?"
Where would you get this idea out in my comment that I felt he was directing the comment toward anyone but the agents that were involved? Nice dancing but no silver cup.
I did not say Biden pointed his insults at the entire group of border agents. I offered a video of the man offering his words in regard to the agents that were involved in what he called the strapping of migrants. So, your comment seems odd, and a way to add a new spin on the subject.
It was clear he was condemning the agents involved in the incident. Does that make it OK? Does he have the right to attack these agents before an investigation was conducted?
His action in this case was inexcusable. What does it matter if he unjustly condemns two or all? What is your point? I feel he should have not condemned anyone without an investigation.The whole conversation started when another poster, I think it was live to learn? Commented this to me:
"You can't be ignorant of the fact that Biden has publicly attempted to demonize border agents."
My only comment back was just to clarify that President Biden was talking about one instance. He was criticizing one situation and that this does not equal demonizing border agents in general in any way. That was really it.
Looks like there's a new 'sharpshooter' in town.
You are saying the viewing public didn't see that televised speech condemning those CBP agents as condemning the whole? Your thought says the public doesn't see those riders as representative of CBP as an agency. I think they did and that they do.
Consider the fallout from those declarations, (not just Biden's). Calls to abolish ICE, disband horseback agents, (they did temporarily suspend it), etc. Surely you heard those calls, they were on the news and on politicians' lips for weeks.
Factually you are right, he didn't condemn all, but I think you are stretching this 'technicality too far. Reality says the important fact is the public perception of his remarks.
GAI can't speak to the general viewing public but I don't see those few agents as being representative of all. I don't believe that it was President Biden's intention either to level a blanket condemnation of all border agents due to the actions of a few. Do you? I feel that he was speaking on that one particular incident, nothing more.
That's my perception and I do just happen to be part of the public
Yes, I do think Pres. Biden was speaking of just those agents, (et al). My point was that viewers that don't do Google searches heard his statement as a condemnation of CBP actions, with a reasonable 'impression' that the agents were representative of frontline CBP.
Follow that with further daily condemnations and that view looks reasonable to me. I bet one of those 'person-on-the-street' interview polls would give us a clue.
GAI think you're inferring a little too much about viewers.
That's possible. I was wrong once before, back in '78. I thought I was mistaken, but I was wrong. ;-)
GA
Those same people likely think Trump won in 2020, so that's not saying much.
That's a pretty telling thought. It sounds like you're saying anyone that doesn't see this issue the way you do is an idiot.
My perspective is that the Democrats seized on what they thought was a real 'gotcha' moment. Proof that Rightwingers are like racist slave drivers more than ready to whip colored folks. I saw agents doing their best to do their job and getting crucified for it for political reasons. And from the president's national pulpit, no less.
In less than a day, it was shown that the claims were false, but your folks demanded an investigation. The result was 'administrative' and silly charges of misconduct. Excessive force for using their horse to block illegal border crossings? I think that looks nuts to a lot more folks than just me.
I think you are wrong. I think a lot of sensible folks saw this attack on the agents as representative of Democrat values. Values they want no part of.
Your 'deplorables' basket must be overflowing.
GAIt sounds like you're saying anyone that thinks Trump won in 2020 is an idiot.
I agree.
But some of your friends here, "your people" are not going to be happy with you.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
I didn't say anything about Trump, but I would put the election deniers in the idiot, (lesser idiot, as refusing to believe the reality of the issue), basket if asked.
However, that has nothing to do with the message of my response. Maybe Valeant's thought, (and yours?), is on par with those election deniers: seeing what you want instead of what's real.
GAYou didnt mention Trump, Valeant did. He didnt mentioned idiots, you did.
You objected to be put in the same "deplorable basket" as election deniers. You equated being an election denier to be an idiot.
"It sounds like you're saying anyone that doesn't see this issue (border patrol incident) the way you do is (he said election denier) an idiot.
"your thought... seeing what you want instead of what's real."
Well, seems to me what I saw was real: "but I would put the election deniers in the idiot... basket."
And again, I agree.
Maybe I imagined the whole admission, probably the heat.Sounds like you still don't have electricity.
You guys, (you, Faye, Valeant, (you know, 'Lefties' ;-0)), are talking to my point, but you are not seeing it. To me, you guys are illustrating it.
Or, maybe we have a different view of how political most Americans are.
I say most, (at least 60%), are political moderates, in general. Most of that most have daily jobs and responsibilities that occupy their thoughts, rather than deep research and analysis of political issues.
I say they, mostly, form their political perceptions from their daily social interactions, whether they be physical work-a-day and social activity interactions, or daily social media interactions. They also, mostly, get their news and political information from 'nightly news' shows of some kind.
As for those Democrat values, the term was purposely general and the inference was only shorthand for typical Liberal vs. Conservative value sets, not a right or wrong judgment. For instance, the abortion issue. The Democrat value on that issue would be, (or is perceived by conservatives to be), pro-choice. The political 'value' would be as Faye described—different for sub-segments of Democrat values, but my point was about the perception of most of America, the ones I described, that don't dissect pro-choice, (or pro-life, or most political issues), into those sub-set categories or values.
I think one could use that simple perspective of Dem vs. Repub. on most issues and come up with connotation-free descriptors that carry the point of opposing views as they are before the political details get involved.
It is the reality of their perceptions that I am speaking to, and whether it's the CBP or Martha's Vineyard news stories, it's the damaging Democrat responses I am talking about.
GAI didnt reacted to that point. The freudian slip was funny to me.
I agree with your point about perceptions. It is the same thing (perceptions that you object) when people accuse Trump supporters ("your people") of being all insurrectionists, a threat to Democracy, etc. Or when people think conservatives that do not denounce rightwing extremists in Congress, Trump actions, election cosnpiracies, are implicitly agreeing with them. And so on.
They exist. Not always right.
And yes, still no power. Temps over 94 every day. Heat index yesterday was 114.I think that is only applicable to the 50+ crowd.
Those south of 50 most likely get their news from phone news feeds, facebook, youtube, and whatever Social Media site they use.
Youtube sites that deliver news and opinions get more viewers than CNN.
What? GA's comment had nothing to do with Trump or the 2020 election.
"I think a lot of sensible folks saw this attack on the agents as representative of Democrat values. Values they want no part of.'"
This thought Is another example of what I was initially getting at. What "Democrat Values" were being displayed? And you certainly aren't ascribing them to Democrats across the board are you?
In my view, Democrats could be divided into at least 4 different boxes with loosely, fluid corresponding beliefs. The same is true for Republicans.
Far too many people, fueled by the media, seem to prefer to view each in fixed, absolutes rather than ideologies that exist on a continuum.
Again, it's tribal. We view the other’s identity narrowly and simplistically.
Decision-making has become based not on logic, but loyalty. A threat to a single person in a tribe is a threat to the whole group.
When tribes clash, the diversity of identity is reduced to a single differentiating factor: are you an insider or outsider? We support the insider and demonize the other.
It happens quite a bit on this here forum. My wish is that people would see the shades of gray more often that live between the black and white."This thought Is another example of what I was initially getting at. What "Democrat Values" were being displayed?"
These are a few values I feel Biden lacked when he sought to cash in on the opportunity to bash those four border agents.
First and foremost --- a lack of integrity to do what is the logical, fair, and right thing to do. A lack of respect, treat others as one demands to be treated. He showed no responsibility for his actions. He let his words go forth, and made no effort to correct his condemnation of these men.
He exhibited a lack of fairness. His words and his accusations were condemning without question.
The various poor values Biden exhibited on that day were clearly, In my view) political, red meat to toss at a very hungry crowd.
He sought to cash in on the backs of those four border agents with his unproven accusations, within hours after the incident occurred.
I feel he sought to make the border agents in general enemies that seek to harm migrants purposely. In my view, He also sought to race-bait as he does frequently.
GA words are clear, the context is clear, he in no way -- " What "Democrat Values" were being displayed? And you certainly aren't ascribing them to Democrats across the board are you?:
GA -- "'My perspective is that the Democrats seized on what they thought was a real 'gotcha' moment. Proof that Rightwingers are like racist slave drivers more than ready to whip colored folks."
So, why go there? It's clear he was referring to Democrats that are Washington representatives. Headed up by the President.
It wasn't so much as being in agreement with my stance, which I haven't even put out on Biden condemning CPB if you'll go back and check.
No, what I'm saying is that the same people that couldn't do the research to understand that the election was free and fair, which would have been easy if they ignored a certain malignant narcissist, are the same people who won't look deeper into Biden's specific comments about CBP.
And what you see as a gotcha moment was seen by many of our side who happen to care about the historical references that many had hoped our country had moved past: white people in southern states using whips in instances with people of color.
So if Democratic values are erring on the side of making sure we never have another instance of that action and calling for an investigation, and later acknowledgement that the agents were absolved of said action, then I am fine with that.I haven't heard that Pres. Biden or VP Harris acknowledged the agents were absolved of the charges. I haven't heard them 'walk-back,' or even speak to their original claims since the investigation.
The historical references you hoped we had moved past came from the two top Democrat leaders. It looks like they too could benefit from looking deeper before forming an impression.
GAWell, when the video clearly shows someone using the reins and pushing back migrants with it, not sure how much of an apology those agents deserve. It seems to be people's eyes that were making those references and the top two Democrat leaders weren't the only ones to want a deeper look into the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4Z6S5UePoAnd after the 'deeper' look?
After hearing the agents' side, my view is that they were acting as they were trained, (the reins), and they were trying to do the job they were assigned: stop illegal border crossings.
Your view suggests they were sent there, as a horse patrol, to politely ask the illegal crossers to stop doing the illegal border crossings, and just sit back and watch when they didn't.
Back to the question. When did Pres. Biden and VP Harris address the results of the investigation?
GAStop guessing about what my views are. You've just been fabricating things that are in no way reality. You're slowly moving into Wilderness territory with your incorrect assumptions about what others believe.
As to Biden and Harris not bringing up the fact that the agents were found to have used unnecessary force in this instance, and that the imagery and video of them swinging their reins towards immigrants of color somehow demands a rebuttal, we can disagree with that.You are right that I am guessing what your views are, just as you are guessing what mine are. Both of our guesses are based on the others' responses.
We view the same video and you say the agent's actions were excessive force. You say using their reins for crowd control, as they were trained, was excessive force. What else should I guess you view to be if not to let the illegal border crossers pass? What have I "fabricated"?
What do you think the agents should have done when the illegal border crossers ignored their orders and continued trying to make another illegal crossing?
GAThat wasnt the case in that incident.
By September 19, 2021, approximately 15,000 Haitian migrants had crossed the border from Mexico into the United States and were concentrated in an encampment underneath the international bridge connected to the Del Rio POE and in the surrounding areas. Upon arrival at the encampment, migrants were issued numerically sequenced color-coded carnival style tickets which were used to call migrants for processing. USBP personnel then worked as quickly as possible to process these migrants and remove them from the site while attempting to address logistical challenges including providing food, water, adequate sanitation facilities, and maintaining order in the area around the Del Rio POE. Due to the lack of resources and extreme heat, USBP made an operational decision to allow the migrants to move back and forth across the Rio Grande River, as needed, to obtain food, water, and other necessities...
While the USBP Incident Commander (IC) informed OPR investigators that USBP had asked TXDPS to secure the area on the west side of the Del Rio POE earlier in the week, at no time on September 19, 2021, was it the operational objective of the USBP to prevent migrants from moving freely in either direction across the Rio Grande River near the boat ramp. However, based on interviews and evidence gathered for this investigation, OPR determined that is precisely what happened for approximately 15 minutes that afternoon.
In accordance with Title 8 U.S.C. § 1225, Inspection by Immigration
Officers, “An alien present in the United States who has not been admitted or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters) shall be deemed for purposes of this chapter an applicant for admission.”
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files … -final.pdfWhere in this exchange have I guessed what your views are? Please quote that for me.
We viewed the same video and I have said that an investigation determined there was excessive force used. Small difference from what you just claimed. That people seeing the use of reins in a whipping motion for 'crowd control' brings up historical references. I'm just not sure why you feel a need to invent an incorrect assumption after those statements. And one that misses the mark badly in that I'm all for humane immigration enforcement. The key word being humane - and not using a whipping motion of reins against people of color that invokes an ugly historical reference to the whipping people of color in this country.
As to an assumption of views, how would you feel if I made a hypothetical statement to you like: Oh, so you must be for whipping people of color, and sad that the lash attempts did not make contact?
Do you now understand how easy it is to misconstrue someone else's intentions just as a petty slight? It's outlandish and I'm not sure why people try and frame other people as an insult like that, but have asked multiple times in these forums to cease the tactic.Outside of bowing elegantly to the passing mob, what do you consider "humane immigration enforcement"? Just what level and kind of force would you consider "humane" if waving horse reins is too much?
The context of your comment implies that I am one of some "people" that use insults as a response to disagreement. I had no intention of insulting, nor, hopefully, being snarky. So if you feel insulted it's on you.
GAI see you either failed to, or chose not to, find a quote of me inventing your views prior to your fabricated claim that I had.
I will just match fabricated narratives then since you seem to think it acceptable. I guarantee you will feel something when you read them.
Val
This link is right from the horse's mouth --- It gives a very detailed report on the entire incident. It is very thorugh. They concluded that there was no evidence of anyone being struck or turned back into Mexico.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-m … e%20reins.
Investigative Results
The investigation identified a number of organizational and management issues with respect to lack of command and control and insufficient policy guidance and training of Border Patrol Agents. The investigation also found that at least one Border Patrol Agent displayed dangerous behavior and used inappropriate and denigrating language and that several Agents used force or the threat of force to drive migrants back to the Rio Grande River, despite the fact that the migrants were well within the territorial boundary of the United States. The investigation concluded that there is no evidence that any migrants were struck by reins and no evidence that any migrants were forced to return to Mexico or denied entry into the United States.
The Office of Professional Responsibility investigation into the Del Rio Horse Patrol incident established the following findings:
I have followed this conversation, one quick question. Do you feel it was appropriate for Biden to make the comment he offered before the investigation had even started? Inferring migrants were: run over by horses, and strapped.
Should have he not waited for the investigation to play out, before condemning the agents involved?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO7sJZS-b04&t=2sDid you watch the video link I posted?
What do your own eyes tell you? Do that before providing me information I have already seen.I did not see anyone being hit with the reigns, but I did see the horse get close to a child, however, it did not touch the child. I saw the people running at some points toward the horses, some running from the houses. It was evident there were not enough agents to handle the people. And no one was reported to have been hurt.
I ride, and it is not so easy to maneuver a horse in such a situation. One could see the men and the horses were well trained to do the job. No one was run over, which could happen with a poorly trained horse or poorly trained rider.
In my true opinion, this was an unfortunate problem that happened due to the rides being overrun. And perhaps they should have backed off altogether in that situation. I do think it was lucky no one got hurt.
My judgment would have been just to let them progress on their way.
I am bitching about Biden condemning and claiming there would be punishment before an investigation was done. Same with VP harris, she race-baited, I think that was worse. We have too many people waiting for these kinds of dog whistles. I thought Boden wanted to calm the nation, his words really upset many.
I don't know why he just could not have said, -- this is all being investigated, and IF these agents acted improperly, they will be punished.But can you see, from the video, why people believed that the riders were using their reins in a whipping motion towards the immigrants? It was pretty obvious that at least one did, as well as a rider riding at more than a few of them and forcing them back into the river.
These are the actions that were condemned and the video evidence backs up those condemnations. So while the investigative report claimed no one was whipped, there was clearly a whipping action from the video in the direction of people of color. Hence, the relevant historical references and leaders noting that we never want to go back to times when that was considered appropriate.
And my point is that when you see something with your own eyes, as is clear on the video that all of America could see, that there were whipping actions with the reins towards immigrants, that backs up the call for investigation. It's much like the George Floyd video - all of America could see the deadly force used in that case with their own eyes.I think what started the problem was a still shot. I saw it, it shocked me, and I was outraged. Later when the videos started to show up, I could see a problem as you did. But I waited and studied many videos and I did not see anyone get hurt or were there any reports of injuries. The optics were bad. I did not like seeing a massive horse herding people. Some were being pushed back, some were walking up to the horses.
I see your point in regards to these very long reigns appearing to be used as whips.
I don't feel good about horses being used to herd people. It goes against my grain. I just felt we needed someone to calm us all down, and encourage us all to wait until the incident was investigated.
One good thing that resulted from the incident. Corrective Actions have been set forth. Listed at the link In offered in my previous comment.Well, I'm happy that you can recognize what I also saw, and why it needed addressing.
Confirming to the minority population, who just went through the George Floyd saga, that it's not American policy to be whipping people of color may have been an attempt to reassure them that more protests are not necessary - that Biden's administration would be investigating those actions.
Unless people liked the protests...It appears we have all seen the same shots and videos, so it isn't facts being argued it is perceptions.
I was not shocked or outraged. I saw law enforcement doing its best to do the job expected. I don't think those agents were there to facilitate the illegal border crossings, I think they were tasked with trying to stop them.
I don't see any good thing resulting from this incident. I see the investigation and its report findings to be political butt-covering for an unsupported politically driven official position.
GAI have done a lot of reading on this subject. The agents on horseback are assigned the job of observation, of areas that are more rural, and the terrain required horses. If they come up against migrants in numbers they can't handle they are to request agents to come in on foot. On that particular weekend, thousands had come in and settled under a bridge. The agency was lacking enough agents to handle the enormous influx of migrants, over 30,000 entered in a few days. Problems were naturally occurring due to a lack of staff. In regard to the agents that were assigned to ride horses... here is what occurred due to short staffing.
"Use of Horse Patrol Units
Senior Border Patrol leadership elected to deploy additional Horse Patrol Units without appropriate training, supervision, and coordination.
Personnel associated with the Horse Patrol program gave differing, inconsistent responses as to whether they were trained or qualified to engage in crowd control operations.
The horses involved in this incident were equipped with split reins which can be twirled by the rider to guide the horse’s movements. One Border Patrol Agent involved in this incident reported twirling these split reins as a distancing tactic. The Office of Professional Responsibility’s review of Horse Patrol Unit training documents did not reveal any specific guidance on twirling of reins for any purpose. The Office of Professional Responsibility interviewed numerous personnel associated with the Horse Patrol program who gave differing, inconsistent answers about whether twirling of split reins for any purpose was included in agency training programs."
The link I offered is very informative in regards to not only the investigation but a good look at what the agents that weekend were dealing with.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-m … e%20reins.
So, who is to blame? Ultimately, the border was poorly staffed, and someone those horses were poorly trained. And no way to get additional help at that section of the border to handle the job.
Yes, the results of the investigation were but-covering. But some things were learned by the agency, and some new protocols were put in writing. I have offered them in another comment, but you can find them at the link below.
I could also argue that nothing good came from the incident. I researched this, and I say this incident brought a spotlight to the border. However, some are only looking at the incident, what Biden called the "strapping of migrants."
I learned a lot about the actual agency, and how understaffed, and poorly trained they are. How they are more or less made to do jobs they are not trained to do, that involved animals that likely weighed 600 pounds. of shear power. I learned that those men could then be criticized by society for doing a poor job that they ultimately were not trained for, but sent out anyway. Sent out on a weekend when thousands of migrants were streaming into the country. So GA, I learned a ton, I could go on and on about the agency that is hired to protect the border, men, and women that are doing what they are told to do, and sometimes jobs that they have little to no training to perform. So, are they racist shitheads or men just doing what they were told to do in a really bad situation? I think I will give them a break, and not blow up my plastic pedestal.
But in view, some in society have little interest in looking at any given problem as a whole. They just smackdown with a view, with little knowledge about what all was involved, what all the varying factors may have been. And most of all some have lost the ability to put themselves in another shoe. Do some not accuse, and set out sure punishment before any form of investigation? Have we not done this over, and over in the past decade? In my view, it resembles the Salem witchhunt mentality. Some have decided to resume this form of justice. Slander, cancel, destroy, call it what you please. For me, I am not willing to placate this form of mindset. I am a holdout, how about you?
Did we not build this society? Do we not accept this form of society?
"Factually you are right, he didn't condemn all,"
No one in this conversation made the claim that Biden condemned all... In fact just the opposite.
Hopefully, this subject has been beaten to a pulp. And we can move on. It's getting hot in here.
Candidate Biden said 'we should surge to the border to ensure those seeking asylum get heard.' Which means we should get more people to hear asylum cases since the backlog is years. Talk about omitting words to make a statement mean something else.
The biggest invitation Biden offered was his "stop and release". he ignored Trump's policies, and in his first months tried to get rid of them, which led to long court proceedings, and Biden continued his Catch and release... He also stopped the construction of the wall. He sent an invitation to any and all that wanted to come with the open policy of catch and release. Not to mention the migrants realized he was trying to get rid of all of Trump's border policies. These were the visible invitations that were very evident to migrants. On day one he started his war to open the borders and send the message across the world.
I think the saddest problem we face at the border is the historic number of unaccompanied children. Under Biden, we have over 200,000 unaccompanied children now in our care.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 … ble-2019s/Imagine what it must take for a parent to send a child to the border of another country. The forces that would push someone to that point must be incredible. What about the root causes? What can we do to address the root causes?
Root causes!? Socialism/Marxism/Communism, it fails THE PEOPLE every time! And yet half this Nation thinks it is a good idea and that the U.S should embrace it!
Then where do the oppressed escape to?Yes, AB where do they escape to? An animal will chew its foot off when caught in a trap. It's sort of akin to border enforcement, punitive measures only work for so long before people find a way around them. We need legal pathways.
Yes we need LEGAL pathways and we need to save this Republic, as founded....which means we say no to socialism+ once and for all.
You can't have it both ways!! End what we have here, that which people seek and, at the same time, work to become just like the places they are escaping from!
Here we go again, you are assuming you know what it feels like to send a child to the border. You can't read over 200,000 parents' minds, can you?
You once again divert from the problem.... 200,000 unaccompanied children are now in the care of the US government.
Don't worry about the root cause we have VP Harris on the case... Why in the hell are we the savor of the world? Ya know this is where we very much differ, I am not out to save the world. I am worried about 200,000 unaccompanied children that are known in the US care. In my view, Biden was the main reason these children were sent, his open border policies.I think you read into my statement. You know I was really sort of more questioning, wondering allowed how it would feel to make that sort of decision. What would lead a person to such a decision. I'm not saying I have those answers and I'm certainly not trying to mind read anyone.
If we don't address a cause how do we expect a different outcome?
You can enforce all you want but that really doesn't change the reasons people are choosing to send their unaccompanied children.
We need more of a solution rather than just to say it's President Biden's fault all the time. That isn't a solution.
Half of our Congress is the party you pledge allegiance to, they can choose to be half of the problem or half of the solution but let's get going already.
If your concern is these immigrant children, what would you like your representatives to advocate for?
I'm not diverting from anything, I asked point blank where and what are the solutions.
In my view we have to consider some of the root causes and how we can influence them.I got your point, and offered my view of why parents are sending children --- Biden was the main reason these children were sent, his open border policies.
As I said, I am not for America saving the world --- we have enough social problems right here at home. Maybe we can concentrate on them, before solving other nations' problems.
Hopefully, we do get going with a new majority in place. If not we start over again if promises are not kept.
The root cause, is our borders are wide open... Close them, and make it known we are not open for business due to the problems of the overflow Biden has caused. Stay tuned for an organized reopening with new laws that will be enforsed. So, just don't come unless you intend to follow our laws.
Thank you. It's like for some this is all brand new. The border towns have lived with all of this for two years now. And now we are up to anywhere from 5 - 7 thousand coming in daily. We have so many problems due to the open border. One would need to have blinders on not to realize what is happening However, some would rather roll out their bleeding heart on the few sent to Marthas Vinyard. Wonder what they think of the over 200 thousand unaccompanied children we have had since Biden came into office. Sorry, this just does not even rate on my scale what we are dealing with at this point at the border.
Disperse all of the immigrants evenly through the country. I don't think you would have any problem with that whatsoever. Just don't drop them unannounced in the middle of the night. There's absolutely no bleeding hearts from Martha's vineyard. They responded in a more than capable manner. We don't need political theater and stunts of sending immigrants as a surprise to "own the libs." This is just ridiculous. You want to see a reaction? Send them to my town LOL
3.5 million? And how many of those were immediately deported? It gets tiring listening to made up numbers with no context of how many asylum claims actually get accepted.
Since the inception of the Asylum program in 1980, the United States has accepted more than 3.7 million refugees and asylees. In 2020, the United States admitted 11,840 refugees, a 60 percent decrease from the 29,916 refugees admitted in the previous year. (Mar 8, 2022)
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article … %202019%20(the%20most%20recent%20data%20available)%2C%2046%2C500,DHS%20Yearbook%20of%20Immigration%20Statistics.
Do you know what these states mean by sanctuary states? They will not cooperate with the federal government to deport migrants.
It doesn't mean they will have the resources necessary to support these migrants who will need access to the asylum courts that are in...wait for it...the city they were promised to go to...Boston.
https://www.justice.gov/eoir/eoir-immig … rt-listing
If you had the first socialism claim at 10:49 am in the daily socialism claim pool, congrats. You win today's prize.
Well, all of those options are more appealing than riding them down with horses, whipping them, or stealing their children from them before deporting them. Those would be the things that the right would defend.
Texas sheriff certifies that migrants flown to Martha’s Vineyard were victims of a crime
Texas Sheriff Javier Salazar on Thursday certified that the group of migrants flown to Martha’s Vineyard, Mass., last month by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) were victims of a crime, qualifying them to obtain a visa.
Salazar, the Bexar County sheriff, submitted certification documents that will allow the nearly 50 migrants to apply for U visas, which grant crime victims nonimmigrant status in the U.S. to ensure that they are available as witnesses during investigations or trials.
“Based upon the claims of migrants being transported from Bexar County under false pretenses, we are investigating this case as possible Unlawful Restraint,” Salazar said in a statement to GBH News.
The Venezuelan nationals transported to Martha’s Vineyard were reportedly given false information about where they were going and the support they would receive at the destination.
The certification comes a day after the Department of the Treasury announced that it would investigate DeSantis’s usage of COVID-19 relief money and the “allowability” of funding migrant transportation with that money or interest earned on it.
Salazar opened an investigation into the Martha’s Vineyard incident soon after it occurred, claiming that the migrants were “lured” under “false pretenses.”
The sheriff told Massachusetts news station WGBH that his office has identified suspects in the investigation but is not releasing names publicly as the probe proceeds.
The Hill has reached out to Salazar for comment.
Immigration attorneys, including Rachel Self, are working with the Bexar County Sheriff’s Office to interview the migrants as part of the criminal investigation.
“Since the day they landed on Martha’s Vineyard, it has been clear to all who spoke to them that the migrants had been preyed upon and victimized,” Self wrote to The Hill in a statement.
“These certifications will ensure that the migrants can continue to help our law enforcement officials, and that they will be able to process and heal from the incredibly traumatic experiences they have suffered as a result of the cruel, heartless acts committed against them.”
The migrants have also filed a class action lawsuit against DeSantis based on allegations of “fraud” and “misrepresentation.”
“Defendants manipulated them, stripped them of their dignity, deprived them of their liberty, bodily autonomy, due process and equal protection under law, and impermissibly interfered with the Federal Government’s exclusive control over immigration in furtherance of an unlawful goal and a personal political agenda,” reads the lawsuit, referring to its plaintiffs.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc … f-a-crime/
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