O Great Omnipotent One, Employ Your Magic Wand

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   Credence2posted 12 months ago

   Revealing article suggesting Trump new line of defense or an excuse, depending on your point of view.
   
   This man continues to be the gift that keeps on giving. This is the stuff of Norman Lear sitcoms...
   
   Just how stupid does the Trump defense team think that everyone is?
   
   The prosecutors are going to roast him alive, and he will do it to himself. And I will be there to watch him rotisserize
   
   So, the "stable genius" believes that he can box up and treat highly sensitive national security related documents like so much rubbish from a garage sale? So, we just have his "thoughts" without proof or any documentation that he did this properly?
   
   https://news.yahoo.com/trump-claims-pre … 56427.html

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      GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I just caught CNN playing that cut from his interview. All I have is an IslandMom response. I can only SMH.
      
      GA

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      1. 79

         Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

         Yep.
         
         That's why I said they will have Trump and his closest supporters jailed after the 2022 Midterms.
         
         Trump really is a bit disconnected from reality.
         
         He thought he could campaign on "Drain the Swamp" and insult the insiders (Clintons, Pelosi, Schumer, Obama, Biden) attack the establishment and just walk away without them crucifying him for it?
         
         When you pick that type of fight, you should know its DO or be damned for it, ruination (political and economical), jail, even death is on the table.
         
         When he left the White House he should have told them they could have ALL of it, all the papers, all the furniture, or he should have burned it all.
         
         Not taken it to his estate.
         
         Even Clinton was smart enough to destroy all the evidence, phones, computers "wiped, like with a cloth" dipped in acid, etc.
         
         This guy packed it up and took it with him, then he says, "if I just think it, it is declassified"... just begging to be destroyed, and they sure are going to get at it in earnest after the midterms.

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         1. 59

            Fayetteville Fayeposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I absolutely love that the special master, approved of by the Trump team, is demanding they  put in writing everything he's been saying in the public.   This whole strategy of play to the base, gin up the base through media and then run from the rhetoric once they're in front of a judge needs to end.

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            Valeantposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Burning it all is also a crime for a President.  But glad you can see the disconnect from reality that most of us have known about since early in 2017 when Trump tried to convince everyone that he had the largest crowd sizes.  There are hundreds of other examples we could list since that time, but happy this one broke through the wall for you.

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               Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

               This didn't break any walls for me.
               
               I moved past supporting Trump long ago.
               
               That doesn't make Biden, Clinton, Pelosi, etc. any less corrupt or despicable.
               
               That doesn't change the fact that our government, Congress, does not serve the people.  It serves the interests of international banking, corporations, etc.  what is good for the people is far away from the concerns of these life long political criminals.

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   2. 59

      Fayetteville Fayeposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      While Mr Trump keeps telling everyone who will listen that he declassified these documents, you'll notice his lawyers will not say it.
      
      "If the government gives me prima facie evidence (a legal term meaning a fact presumed to be true unless disproved) that this is classified, and you decide not to advance a claim of declassification ... as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it," Dearie told Trump's lawyers in his first public hearing on the matter."
      
      But he continues with his nonsense. And when you point this out to his supporters, you're "nitpicking"

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         Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

         Well, it looks like Trump underestimated this Dearie fellow, he not just going to be another one of his sock puppets.
         
         He has made it quite clear that he won't take any BS from either Trump or his legal team.
         
         Like I often say, You always grab a slippery serpent with both hands.....

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   3. 79

      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I did watch the interview last night. It does appear Trump feels he was within his rights to declassify all the documents he took. I have no idea of the true law on a president declassifying documents. and or if there is a procedure.
      
      I have read some media articles on the matter. I have not really found the laws that cover this. Has anyone else dug up any laws that cover Trump's claim?
      
      I would guess if he is charged we will become educated on the laws that offer a president the right to declassify, and the proceedures.

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         Fayetteville Fayeposted 12 months agoin reply to this

         https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-do … html#three
         
         But the issue still remains, he says he declassified all of these documents and refuses to provide evidence. It's put up or shut up time.  In reality focusing on whether the documents were declassified or not is irrelevant as the documents did not belong to him. They should have never been in his possession. He didn't have the right to possess them.

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      2. 78

         Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

         Sharlee, I really don't see what leg Trump can stand upon at this point. If he has a legal basis for his use of the magic wand as he says, it had better be good. I tend to think that he is just grasping at straws or drowning desperate for something to grab on to, anything regardless of how tenuous.
         
         What excuse does he have? There has been plenty of examples of how these matters from previous administrations were handled, should he have reviewed that?
         
         How can even the President of the United States give a blanket declassification to this country's most closely kept secrets placed in cardboard boxes, so that they may be accessed by anyone that would visit his place?
         
         Has he examined every document to see if each and every declassification is safe and is warranted?
         
         I can't imagine the national security establishment being that sloppy about how this material is handled.
         
         I think that it is checkmate for Trump this time.

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         1. 79

            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I am just not aware of the laws in regard to what Trump did. It is being reported that a president is not allowed to take documents when they leave. It's being reported Trump could not just wave a madgic wand and declassify documents. But, are these reports actually the law?
            
            It appears he has nothing to stand on. But we have been down many of these roads before, and in the end there just no there - there.
            
            I am with you when it comes to it would be odd that a former president
            can just take a load of documents to his home.  However, no charges have come down on his taking the documents.
            
            I think they may come up with some form of indictment in regard to him taking the documents. 
            
            I must say, this is all very odd. It makes me wonder what documents he took, and why did he take them. Something just does not make any sense.
            
            I have been beating my brains out trying to find any laws or procedures that a president must use to declassify documents.
            
            Trump seems to think it's as easy as giving a verbal order. I will say this does not seem logical.
            
            Well the AG is very vest on the law, I am sure if he can indite Trump for a crime associated with his taking and keeping documents that are Top Secret, he will run with it.
            
            I would predict if he has something we will see a Nov surprise. There will be no way they can use this trump card in 2024, just too long to drag it out,
            
            One thing sticks out to me in my reading. Trump was still president when he moved the documents and claimed he declassified the documents.
            
            Obama's Executive Order 13526
            As president, Trump has the legal power to declassify information. He also has the authority to share information with whomever he wants, including foreign adversaries. I am not sure if he has the authority to move documents to his home under this Order. I think this is the Order he was referring to in the interview.
            
            I have read the Order it is a bit long, but I am going to revisit the Order and read it again.
            If he is charged, it will end up in the SC.

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            1. 78

               Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

               The problem is
               
               1.that he has to prove that he declassified the documents. This has to be documented, such sensitive material just floating around cannot be in such a state Simply based on his word.
               
               2. Doesn't matter if he declassified them all and can prove it, there has to be a provision to prevent anyone from taking sensitive state secrets and hiding them in his or her basement. The materials should have been properly deposited within the national archives.
               
               3. I would not count on the Supreme Court bailing him out, as he appointed so many of the dangerous Right wing fanatics that now dominate it. This is touchy in the same way that the Supreme Court refused to hear Trump's case about a rigged election. There is so much damning evidence against Trump in this matter that the court may well excuse itself from involvement, like it did then. Basically, letting the lower court determinations stand. They won't go too far in giving people the impression that it is a partisan, right wing tribunal.
               
               Excerpt from a New York Times Article
               
               No credible evidence has emerged that Mr. Trump issued any standing order to declassify everything he happened to take from the Oval Office, and national security legal specialists have greeted the notion with disdain. Glenn S. Gerstell, the top lawyer for the National Security Agency from 2015 to 2020, said the idea that whatever Mr. Trump happened to take upstairs each evening automatically became declassified — without logging what it was and notifying the agencies that used that information — was “preposterous.”
               
               The claim is also a sideshow to Mr. Trump’s potential legal troubles over the document matter, because none of the three criminal laws cited in a search warrant as the basis of the investigation depend on whether documents technically contain classified information. Notably, Mr. Trump’s lawyers have not repeated his claim in court, where there are professional consequences for lying; they have also resisted a judge’s proposal that they submit a sworn declaration or affidavit about any declassification action.
               
               So, Trump's  attorneys are in the CYA mode? What are they hiding from?
               -------------------------------------
               https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/p … ments.html

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               1. 79

                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  I don't feel the Supreme Court will do anything unethical. I just think this is more complicated than we as laymen may realize.  After a lot of research, I don't think anything covers what occurred with Trump taking documents with him when he left.

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                     peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                     Sharlee:  I had a secret clearance with crypto access when I was doing black box work with the NSA.  The standing order was that if you wanted access to highly classified materials and documents, you had to prove you have a need to know.
                     
                     Those top secret documents that Trump stole are to only be accessed in a SCIF room.
                     
                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive … n_facility
                     
                     Trump as a civilian had no right to posses those documents.  Further, he can't just declassify them by just thinking about it.  There are processes that are done by the national security apparatus to declassify any top secret documents or materials. 
                     
                     I just completed group therapy and I found it one is not getting enough sleep, they can develop psychoses and become delusional.  I suspect with all the pressure, Trump is under he is not sleeping very well these days.
                     
                     Also Trump was mentored by Roy Cohn in the 50's.  He was one of Joseph McCarthy lawyers and taught Trump no matter how deep in the muck you get, deny it and never give up.
                     
                     https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ … 202894001/

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                        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                        I have trust that this will be handled by the DOJ and again if Trump did break laws he will be indicted. These accusations are way above my head.
                        
                        I think these are serious claims, and I again trust that if laws were broken he will be indicted. I do not feel like denying will help if laws have been broken.

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      3. 88

         Valeantposted 12 months agoin reply to this

         He can say it all he wants, but refuses to make the claim where it matters - in the courts.  Because his lawyers seem to be aware that this claim of declassification is a falsehood that will get them in trouble.
         
         And if you can get through the Trump bashing, Brian Tyler Cohen lays out all the executive orders issued under Obama that lay out the restrictions on declassification.
         
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKorGkPO6VA&t=206s

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            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I have read the EO, and your link shares what I have read.
            
            I just feel I will wait to see what turns up with this investigation... I have a memory that at some point, I believe it was in 2019 that Trump in some way Amended ” EO 13526.
            
            I have not dug up any info on my memory.  But I do remember this Obama EO being amended. Not sure of what parts were amended, but it did have something to do with documents. Now, I do not know what was changed, just that Trump amended the EO. 
            
            
            EDITED --  I finally found the article I read in regard to Trump making an amendment to Obama's 13526 EO.
            
            President Trump issued a memorandum last week that transfers to the Attorney General the authority of the Director of National Intelligence to declassify intelligence information concerning the 2016 election.
            https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2019/05/dni-ag-declass/

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2. 79

   tsmogposted 12 months ago

   Adding a log onto the fire. The classification of the documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago is contentious. From my understanding the 2009 Obama EO 13526 is at the center. Yet, a discovery I made this morning also is the Constitution's Article II Authority. Below is a discussion/explanation of both from a legal perspective presenting both sides of the coin. It discusses the EO, Article II as it pertains to the issue, and relevant court cases.
   
   The Classification Status of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Documents by Lawfare Aug 18, 2022
   https://www.lawfareblog.com/classificat … -documents
   
   Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information by the White House office of the press secretary December 29, 2009
   https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th … nformation
   
   Footnote: The court cases discussed are in-text links to them

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   1. 79

      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I think if he is indicted, and I think he will be.  I don't feel the DOJ would have gone the length of searching his home if they did not have a  good case. However, I think it will take the Supreme Court to figure this one out.
      
      In my reading, I have come to the conclusion that there are protocols for declassifying documents,  BUT they ultimately do not apply to the President. It would appear this is what Trump has been referring to in his interviews. I think this one is bigger than I can handle. I have found tons of info that promote different views on a president's rights in regard to declassifying documents. And also the president's right to look over documents before giving them to the archives.  What I have found there is not an actual timeline that a president has to finish that task.
      
      https://www.verifythis.com/article/news … 1dc9c6f7ec

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         Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

         It may be that Trump may well not have an option of going to the Supreme Court.
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         Cannon on Thursday issued a revised order stating that the special master in the case would review all documents "except the approximately one-hundred documents bearing classification markings." She also struck two portions from her original order preventing the DOJ from probing the classified documents during the special master review and requiring them to disclose the materials to the special master.
         
         
         Some legal experts, like NYU Law Professor Ryan Goodman, say that Cannon's revised order essentially "erased Trump's chance to appeal to Supreme Court."

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         1. 79

            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Did not know all of this...  Sounds very logical to me. I have come to feel as I said he will be indicted for something. Can even guess what.

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