Patriotism! Where are the differences and likeness? A deep dive.

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   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   FixUs a bipartisan organization associated with the Committee to a Responsible Budget did a poll/survey from May 25 – May 31, 2022 on Patriotism. There were 2,091 respondents. It is a 22 page report sharing results on 31 questions shown as graphics. (Thus the reason for so many pages) Some questions were general for the whole sample set while others broke it down by identification – Republican, Democrat, and Independent.
   
   Poll findings: American Patriotic Values & Ideals (June 29, 2022)
   https://fixusnow.org/fixus-patriotism-poll
   
   The first question is: I am proud to be an American
   ** All respondents = 72%
   ** Republicans = 94%
   ** Democrats = 62%
   ** Independents = 71% (Interesting that parallels with all respondents)
   
   Note: Page 4 is where the result for Ideals is presented.: The lead question is How important are the following ideals for you.
   
   “On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being “extremely important,” the average answer was above an 8 out of 10 for all ideals surveyed.
   
   **********
   Questions to consider:
   
   Is it a matter of interpretation?
   
   Does upbringing play into the equation?
   (Upbringing can mean family, church, education, and more)
   
   If upbringing does come into play does that mean it is generational?
   
   How important is patriotism?
   
   Is voting exercising patriotism?
   
   Thoughts?
   
   **********
   FixUs about page
   https://fixusnow.org/about-fixus

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      Castlepalomaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      My soul is made up of a million parts. Being a Canadain and worked in the US for 20 years is just one part. I'm happy to be a strong independent, individual and healthy. Where a person was born is secondary, Unless a person was born in Iraq, North Korea or Gaza, that is 10% situation in an individuals life.

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         tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

         Thanks for contributing castlepaloma. Your position is noted!

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         Ken Burgessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

         The divide we see today is manufactured at the top... at DC, in the corporate boardrooms of the fortune 500, by the editors and directors of the MSM.
         
         Whether it be race, gender... or the mere fact that there is an effort to shame people for having pride in their country or for believing their nation is special.
         
         This is all preached in higher education, where their supplicants (future leaders) are indoctrinated to see the nation through the lens of race, sex, religion and international ideals/agendas not national or patriotic ones.
         
         This 'elite leadership' is at odds with the people of the nation that to go to work each day to keep it running or who have paid their dues and are living off their retirement savings and social sec.
         
         It will continue to function in its disfunction, until people are asked to pay the price. 
         
         When the price comes due, which it surely will as we cannot continue to spend trillions of dollars each year over and above what we have, that we do not produce, that we cannot repay...
         
         Those at the top, those facilitating this madness, surely have a plan.  A plan that likely does not work out well for the people that work each day to keep the country running, that pay the taxes, that tolerate our corrupt leadership that instigates and funds war across the globe, that puts tens of millions of non-Americans on the government-tit, that believes ability and meritocracy must be replaced by equity and social justice.

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            Castlepalomaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            xxx

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      Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      A similar poll was done for the UK on the 25th June 2020, with 3039 respondents (similar number to the 2,091 respondents in the American poll); and interestingly, the results are not dissimilar, although as you will see from the data, Americans are generally a little more proud to be American than Brits are proud to be Brits e.g. 72% vs 67%
      
      https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/surv … 25/31f14/2
      
      In the British Poll:-
      
      How proud are you, if at all, to be British?
      •    67% (All Respondents) = Proud
      
      By Politics in Britain
      •    88% = Conservatives (USA equivalent Republicans) are Proud to be British
      •    57% = Liberal Democrats (USA equivalent Democrats) are Proud to be British
      •    53% = Labour are Proud to be British
      
      By Brexit (Nationalists vs Globalists):
      •    84% = Brexit supporters are Proud to be British
      •    54% = Pro EU supporters are Proud to be British
      
      By Gender:
      •    69% = Males are Proud to be British
      •    64% = Females are Proud to be British
      
      By Age:
      •    53% = 18-24 age group are Proud to be British
      •    60% = 25-49 age group are Proud to be British
      •    70% = 50-64 age group are Proud to be British
      •    82% = 65+ age group are Proud to be British
      
      By Social Group
      •    68% = Lower classes are Proud to be British
      •    65% = Higher classes are Proud to be British

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         tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

         Thanks, Arthur! Yes, there are parallels, aren't there. One thing I noted with your poll and one of the ones I posted is older = more are proud contrast the youth. For here in the U.S. I speculate that is because of the influence of WWII and maybe the Korea War. Unsure of the Vietnam conflict influence with which generation most affected.
         
         By that I mean the socialization process at different levels such as family, local, and national sentiment. For instance, again the Vietnam conflict affects both the boomers and Gen X. The gulf wars affected Gen X most, and today is the count of conflicts that for some may be overwhelming.
         
         A example, is today, Millennials and Gen Z who grandpas served in Vietnam wearing their hats indicating pride they served, though they came home to a not welcoming public.
         
         One thing I noted with my little bit of researching is the difference between patriotism and nationalism. I suspect that will affect conservatives more and maybe male vs. female.

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            Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            You raise some good points; particularly to the question why the older the generation the more patriotic and nationalistic it is.
            
            I haven’t got my head around patriotism vs nationalism in respect to the UK, in that being 4 nations, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England (5 nations if you include Cornwall) the subject gets rather complex – especially with Scotland wanting to leave the UK and join the EU, and the divide in Northern Ireland with protestants being loyal to the UK, while the Catholics want to leave the UK and merge with the Republic of Ireland.
            
            What I have done is to compile the UK data from the YouGov polls for all three aspects, Proud to be British, Patriotism and Nationalism, side by side in a spreadsheet for easier comparison – screen dump of spreadsheet below:
            
            I’m not sure what to make of it yet (although I suspect the results would be similar for America); whether there’s anything in the data that suggests anything to you?
            
            
            
            The two additional YouGov sources I used are:-
            •    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/su … 03/ad51f/1
            •    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/tra … Break=1824

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               tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

               Thanks, Arthur! Interesting table! Regard the fact the UK is composed of four nations suggests to me the impact of 50 states with regard to the categories. For instance, red states (conservative/Republican vs. blue states (liberal/Democrats).
               
               Going further I pondered here where I live San Diego County. The military population active service is 100K while veterans is 240k. That is 2.5% of the county population. That does not include children, however would mirror voting population. Then not accounted for is the civil service working on the bases. For the state of California 4% of the population is veterans. As to the social impact, there is a business adage everyone influences at least 13 people.
               
               As an aside that opened a door with the debt fixer where I stated I would like to provide those extended benefits for health care to veterans in the Defense category. The question for myself is as representative for my constituency being San Diego County, where would I stand? Again, I am rethinking my position on that.
               
               Regard the table, right off the bat I see the contrast between generations. As far as wrapping one's head around nationalistic and patriotic I see nationalistic as a subcategory. With the 'all' population it appears nationalist is a good portion of patriotic.
               
               I see contrast with here on gender/sex. Here males have a higher percentage enough for me to remember, however with quick poking about could not find that info to post. Perhaps, it is in the OP study offered.
               
               As far as political position it doesn't surprise me. The survey/study offered at the OP indicates the same thing. With Brexit, while unfamiliar only with cursory knowledge, it appears the three categories align equally. It must since it remains a hot topic today, right?

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                  Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Yep, it’s logical that to be nationalistic you are almost certainly going to be patriotic as well, although if you are a globalist then you can still be patriotic to your country.  And most certainly, the same applies with Brexit e.g. those who support Brexit will almost certainly have strong nationalistic leanings and largely be patriotic, while those who support the EU although not nationalistic can still be patriotic to Britain.
                  In my case, as a globalist, I view myself as:-
                  
                  •    1st Bristolian (the city where I live).
                  •    2nd European.
                  •    3rd British/English
                  
                  But nevertheless I am somewhat proud to be British.

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2. 84

   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   Adding additional information from a Gallup poll; Extreme Pride in Being American Remains Near Record Low (June 29, 2023). It shares a trend since 2003 has been downward for all Americans. Extremely proud dropped from a high of 70% to 39% for 2023. For age groups 18 - 34 is the lowest while age groups 55 and older is highest.
   https://news.gallup.com/poll/507980/ext … d-low.aspx
   
   There 'Bottom Line' states:
   
   Bottom Line
   
   Although the percentage of U.S. adults who say they are extremely proud to be American remains near the record low, together with the share who are very proud, about two-thirds express national pride. Pride in one’s national identity continues to differ most sharply among partisans, with more Republicans than Democrats saying they are proud. However, age is nearly as important a factor, with younger adults in all party groups significantly less proud than older adults in each party. While Republican party identification may be associated with greater national pride, the fact that Republicans tend to be older than Democrats and independents also contributes to the party differences.

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      Kathleen Cochranposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      You can be proud to be an American without turning a blind eye to its flaws and historic mistakes.
      
      The defining characteristic in Americans is our commitment to do better when we know better. This characteristic is also a defining difference in republicans and democrats. Nothing needs to change vs. we can do better.

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         Sharlee01posted 3 months agoin reply to this

         "The defining characteristic in Americans is our commitment to do better when we know better. This characteristic is also a defining difference in republicans and democrats."
         
         In my view, which I will share using honesty and politeness --   One might argue that while the idea of Americans committing to improvement is noble, attributing it as a defining characteristic of a political party may oversimplify the diverse perspectives within both Republicans and Democrats. It could be seen as painting each group with a broad brush, neglecting the nuanced opinions and motivations that individuals within these parties hold. Additionally, critics might contend that such a statement could fuel division by implying that one party is inherently more committed to progress than the other.
         
         As a Republican, I feel your statement is quite offensive, to put it mildly. I believe such thinking contributes significantly to the societal divisions we currently face.

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            Kathleen Cochranposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            "As a Republican, I feel your statement is quite offensive," I wish more of the GOP did. Maybe they would be more open to doing better.

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   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   World Population Review shares most patriotic countries. America thunders to the top of the heap. Following are the top ten for a YouGov survey.
   
   United States = 41%
   India = 36%
   Australia = 34%
   Thailand = 25%
   Saudi Arabia = 25%
   Philippines = 15%
   Indonesia = 14%
   United Kingdom = 13%
   Denmark = 13%
   Malaysia = 11%
   
   For the question residents willing to fight the U.S. falls in the middle of the pack at 44%. The UK hits 27%. That was for 59 countries where there were responses measured. More countries were listed with no response. (Note to get the country count of responding I had to count them, so I may have miscounted for the total)
   
   Most Patriotic Countries 2024 by World Population Review
   https://worldpopulationreview.com/count … -countries
   
   There opening paragraph states:
   
   “Patriotism is the feeling of love, loyalty, devotion, support and/or pride directed toward one’s country. Patroitism relates to one’s own homeland, including its historical, political, cultural, or ethnic qualities. Patriotism is similar to and can be confused with nationalism, a sort of extreme, antagonistic patriotism; and Chauvinism, an even more extreme variation in which a person becomes unrealistically prejudiced and treats all other countries disrespectfully. Anti-patriotism is the ideology opposite patriotism, which posits that patriotism is wrong because it encourages people to blindly love and sacrifice themselves for their birth country regardless of how they have been treated there.”

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      Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      I was intrigued why UK is only 13% for most patriotic country in the link you provided, whereas according to a YouGov survey taken on 3rd Feb 2021 61% of Brits are patriotic.  But in looking at the question phrased in your ‘worldpopulationreview’ link, the survey question was asking people whether they “think their country is the best” rather than “whether they are patriotic”.
      
      So in that respect, I’m not surprised that only 13% of Brits think the UK is the best country in the world.

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         tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

         Thanks! Yes, I can go along with your observation with what was the question asked. I see that was my fault. Oops! Going back to reexamine the study they took into context all four polls/surveys offered. There conclusion was;
         
         "Which is the most patriotic country?
         
         Citizens of the United States top patriotism lists based on national pride and a feeling of having the best country in the world."
         
         Unfortunately, they did not offer any other countries in a ranked order. It is left to the individual to examine the four polls/surveys to come up with a conclusion.

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            Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            hanks for the feedback Tim. 
            
            I went back into the link looking for the ‘source’ link to their reference to the YouGov Survey, and found it – link: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c … ines_W.pdf
            
            It’s a link to a YouGov survey taken in 2016:
            The reverent question is on Page 3 in the above link.
            
            Some of the answers given in that section on page 3 is interesting; for example:
            
            •    My country is the best in the world:  UK =13%, USA=41%
            •    My country is better than most other countries:  UK=32%; USA=32%
            •    My country is as good as most other countries:  UK=39%; USA=17%

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               tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

               Thanks! Bookmarked for later.

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               tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

               I examined the linked YouGov survey results, but tossed in Sweden since I have an interest with it. Then you have:
               
               ** My country is the best in the world: GB = 13%, USA = 41%, Sweden = 7%
               ** My country is better than most other countries: GB = 32%, USA = 32%, Sweden = 55%
               ** My country is as good as most other countries: GB = 32%, USA = 32%, Sweden = 25%
               
               Then I tossed in another question: Do you think the world has got better or worse in the last 12 months, or has there been no change. I took into account it was 2016 the survey was done.
               
               Better: GB = 2%, USA = 11%, Sweden = 4%
               No Change: GB = 29%, USA = 30%, Sweden = 28%
               Worse: GB = 62%, USA = 53%, Sweden = 61%
               Don't Know = GB = 8%, USA = 6%, Sweden = 7%
               
               Seems, all three are in alignment with a world  perspective in 2016. However, what influenced each respondent? Today, we have the Ukraine conflict as well as Israel vs Hammas.
               
               Going back to the first question you posted I ask myself what was the impact of the 2016 elections here on the US with respondents? In other words, does it reflect nationalism promoted by Trump with his "Make America Great Again" (MAGA) campaign. That also may apply to the third question.
               
               Remember, Brexit occurred 2020, right, as far as the vote. I see it started in 2016.
               
               Brexit timeline: events leading to the UK’s exit from the European Union by House of Commons Library (Jan 6, 2021)
               https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re … /cbp-7960/

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                  Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Yep, Brexit has had and still is having implications in Britain since 2016, just as Trump has had and still is having implications in America (and the world) since 2016.

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         Credence2posted 3 months agoin reply to this

         Arthur, help me here, what did you consider the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

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            Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            1.    Patriotism is the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.
            
            2.    Nationalism is the advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.
            
            For example, as a globalist (the opposite of a nationalist) I still have a certain amount of patriotism (pride) in Britain, even though I am not a nationalist, and I support membership of the EU, UN and WHO etc.

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               Credence2posted 3 months agoin reply to this

               Thanks for helping me with the distinction. You have found both a comfortable and responsible place.

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                  Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Thanks .  For simplicity I did give give a rather simplistic answer, but in the real world nothing is ever black & white - For example, Scotland is governed by the SNP (Scottish National Party), a socialist Government who are nationalistic in the sense that they want to leave the UK to gain independence for Scotland, yet globalists in the sense that they want to join and be part of the EU e.g. to become subject to EU Laws and Regulations.

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                  Credence2posted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  The very worse that you can be called by the hard right is a globalist. Conservatives in my opinion are retrograde people, wanting to return to a time when our security was insured due to the insulation of two oceans.
                  
                  When it comes to being most offensive with this nationalism, separatism stuff, the state of Texas comes to mind.

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                     Nathanvilleposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                     Yep

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   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   The American Flag Is it a significant symbol?
   
   One man's opinion, Jeremiah Valeiro, worth reading by my estimation offering a perspective. However, others may disagree with his position and thoughts.
   
   As an aside, personally, I display the national flag on holidays and it sits on my front porch at all times ignoring some etiquette.
   
   The American Flag: A Symbol for Some or All? by Jermiah Valerio published by Harvard Political Review. (Nov 7, 2022)
   
   https://harvardpolitics.com/the-america … me-or-all/
   
   Valerio's unsplash page composed of photos
   https://unsplash.com/@miahtx
   
   Edit/Footnote: With review of the OP study provided I see displaying the American flag is third of 12 at 7.9 for all on a scale of 1 - 10, ten being highly patriotic. It is on page 17 of the study titled Patriotic Actions. I cannot post a link to that page specific. So, one would need to go to the study then navigate to that page.
   
   The study is at the following link:
   https://fixusnow.org/fixus-patriotism-poll

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      tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      YouGov did a poll for 2022 on the flag, however one graphic provided shows it compared to other popular flags in the U.S.i.e. Trump flag, Biden/Harris flag, BLM flag, Confederate flag, Pride flag, and more. There is also a graphic showing a compare/contrast between Republicans and Democrats with the different flags.
      
      How Americans view the American flag, and other symbolic flags, in 2022 by YouGov
      https://today.yougov.com/politics/artic … mbols-poll
      
      The article discusses patriotism. For the American flag they state;
      
      "Most Americans see the act of flying the American flag as patriotic (70%), and a majority (60%) say the same about the act of wearing an American flag pin. But younger Americans — who see the American flag in a less positive light than older adults — also are less likely to call themselves patriotic. The same applies to Democrats and Black Americans when compared to Republicans and white Americans, respectively."
      
      Reflectively, from a personal viewpoint, living in San Diego County on the border with Mexico it is not uncommon to see the Mexican flag prominently displayed on Mexican holidays. I cringe for a moment, yet understand.
      
      With a city on the coast from me there was a hot dispute about the school headquarters flying commemorative flags, e.g. the Pride flag. It was May of 2023.
      
      Students stage walkout over Carlsbad school district’s refusal to fly Pride flag by Fox5
      https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-new … ride-flag/
      
      Thoughts?

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   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   Where states rank with Patriotism
   
   June 19, 2023 Wallet Hub released a study for most patriotic states. They are listed by four categories; overall rank, total score, military engagement, and civic engagement. They can be sorted. Thirteen metrics were used with a weight factor for each. For instance for civic engagement voting had the highest weight factor. Those factors can be seen at the bottom of the article with methodology.
   
   Most Patriotic States in America by WalletHub (June 19, 2023)
   https://wallethub.com/edu/most-patriotic-states/13680
   
   The top ten in descending order are:
   
   1 – Virginia – Possible Swing State – Engagement military #3, Civic #8
   2 – Montana – Red State – Engagement military #22, Civic #3
   3 – Alaska – Red State – Engagement military #1, #24
   4 - North Dakota – Red State – Engagement military #20, civic #7
   5 – Maine – Blue State – Engagement military #38, civic #2
   6 – Vermont – Blue State – Engagement military #46, civic #1
   7 – Oregon – Blue State – Engagement military #36, #5
   8 – Colorado – Possible Swing State – Engagement military #11, civic #13
   9 – Wyoming – Red State – Engagement military #7, #16
   10 - New Hampshire – Blue State – Engagement military #32, civic #6
   
   The bottom ten in descending order are:
   
   41 – Connecticut – Blue State – Engagement military #42, civic #28
   42 – Pennsylvania – Swing State – Engagement military #44, civic #29
   43 – Alabama – Red State – Engagement military #12, civic #28
   44 – Wisconsin – Swing State – Engagement military #43, civic #30
   45 – Indiana – Red State – Engagement military #35, civic #41
   46 – Florida – Possible Swing State – Engagement military #19, civic #49
   47 - New York – Blue State – Engagement military #49, civic #27
   48 - Rhode Island – Blue State – Engagement military #40, civic #36
   49 – Massachusetts – Blue State – Engagement military #50, civic #34
   50 – Arkansas – Red State – Engagement military #29, civic #50
   
   What about blue states vs. red states. The result is blue states are more patriotic.
   
   Other topics are covered as well showing top five and bottom five. Two are Average Number of Military Enlistees and Veterans per capita.
   
   At the article they asked experts (9) the following questions:
   
   Ask the Experts: Taking Our Patriotic Pulse
   
   Patriotism can be a complex subject, depending on who’s involved in the discussion. For insight, we asked a panel of experts to share their thoughts on the following key questions:
   
   ** What are the characteristics of a good patriot?
   ** What are the best ways for an individual to show patriotism?
   ** What is the relative influence of economic incentives versus patriotic intentions when deciding whether or not to join the military? Has this changed over time?
   ** Should we be raising our children as global citizens first or as Americans first?
   ** What measures should schools and local authorities undertake in order to promote patriotism among citizens?

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   tsmogposted 3 months ago

   Patriotism: Military Recruitment. A Bell Weather?
   
   Military recruitment fell short by 41,000 for 2023. The Department of Defense says;
   
   The causes of the recruiting challenges "are complex and multifaceted," Vazirani said. Vazirani is Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. They include:
   
   •    A strong economy, which has resulted in many more options for young people. 
   •    A smaller eligible population.
   •    Generation Z, the generation born from 1997 to 2012, generally has a low trust in institutions.
   •    Generation Z has decreasingly followed traditional life and career paths.
   •    Young people have fewer family members who served, which decreases the propensity to serve.
   
   “In 1995, 40% of young people had a parent who served in the military, Vazirani said. By 2022, just 12% had a parent who had served. "This has led to a disconnect between the military and a large share of society," he said.
   
   One cause is white recruitment is a significant decline. As stated at Military.com;
   
   “A total of 44,042 new Army recruits were categorized by the service as white in 2018, but that number has fallen consistently each year to a low of 25,070 in 2023, with a 6% dip from 2022 to 2023 being the most significant drop. No other demographic group has seen such a precipitous decline, though there have been ups.
   
   “In 2018, 56.4% of new recruits were categorized as white. In 2023, that number had fallen to 44%. During that same five-year period, Black recruits have gone from 20% to 24% of the pool, and Hispanic recruits have risen from 17% to 24%, with both groups seeing largely flat recruiting totals but increasing as a percentage of incoming soldiers as white recruiting has fallen and downs from year to year.”
   
   The top five reasons with no statistics given for ranking for enlistees enlisting are:
   
   ** Patriotism
   ** Pay
   ** Training
   ** Career choice with retirement benefits
   ** Adventure and travel
   
   From observation there are more studies being done for why prospects dismiss reenlisting and retention of enlistees than why enlistees enlisted today.
   
   From one study some conclusions were:
   “Officials said that based on the surveys, young people simply do not see the Army as a safe place or good career path, and believe they would have to put their lives and careers on hold if they enlisted.”
   
   “Army leaders said very few say they are deterred from enlisting due to “wokeness.” In fact, concerns about discrimination against women and minorities is seen as a bigger issue, along with a more general distrust of the military.”
   
   Other studies indicate they are mixed on if the youth is being encouraged to enlist. One by the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and Institute found;
   
   “This year's survey found that 51% of respondents said they would encourage friends and family who were considering joining the military to do so, compared to 33% who said they would discourage their loved ones from joining.”
   
   Is there a need of concern for low enlistment?
   
   Is it lack of patriotism with the younger generations?
   
   Is it the impact of media as in TV/Movies glamorizing service? Does that socializing force encourage enlistment or discourage it?
   
   Thoughts?
   
   Some articles used are:
   
   Most Would Encourage Military Service But Confidence in Armed Forces Remains Low, Survey Finds by Military.com (Nov 30, 2023)
   https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 … finds.html
   
   New survey examines why Soldiers decide to stay in or leave the Army by U.S. Army (Nov 19, 2021)
   https://www.army.mil/article/252098/new … e_the_army
   
   Don’t blame ‘wokeness’ for the Army’s recruitment woes, says the Army by Fortune (Feb 13, 2023)
   https://fortune.com/2023/02/13/wokeness … rvey-data/
   
   Army Sees Sharp Decline in White Recruits by Military.com (Jan 10, 2024)
   https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 … ruits.html
   
   DOD Addresses Recruiting Shortfall Challenges by US Department of Defense (Dec 13, 2023)
   https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stori … hallenges/

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      Credence2posted 3 months agoin reply to this

      Much of the junior enlisteds are not being paid much. It may appear to them that they could make more money anywhere else without sacrificing precious time at an early stage  to properly orient their economic path and direction to their future benefit.
      
      Minorities have been attracted to the military due to less favorable opportunities elsewhere to obtain any paycheck.

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         tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

         Thanks for your observation, Cred. After doing some poking about I see enlistment into the National Guard is rising, yet slightly. Retention is stable pretty much, though I am going to poke about more and look into promotion demographics and statistics. For instance E-4 is the highest of ranks with those who obtained it, so how long does it take to reach that rank.

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            Credence2posted 3 months agoin reply to this

            From what I read promotion to E-4 takes 30 months.
            
            E-4, 30k is the starting salary. I stand corrected, with Base Allowance for subsistence, it is closer to 36K. I have a niece who works at Walmart who makes more than that after being there a couple of years.
            
            ThirtySix K is not very much particularly if you have a small family.

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               tsmogposted 3 months agoin reply to this

               Yup, you're right for an E-4 that isn't much as I see it. Thanks for the info!

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                  Credence2posted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  Here is another article about the problems associated with military recruitment, TSmog.
                  
                  https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-diploma-n … 00463.html
                  
                  If this continues they may well have to resort to the draft again.

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                     tsmogposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                     Thanks, Cred! The article did a good job of presenting the stark reality of meeting recruiting goals. I have mixed feelings to lower the standard of not having a requirement of a high school education. I don't like it, though I see it as one way those pursuing enlistment have hope of some kind of future. Like the one admiral said there are plenty of positions a high school education isn't needed. They can be 'trained' to fulfill them.

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   Kathleen Cochranposted 2 months ago

   "As a Republican, I feel your statement is quite offensive," I wish more of the GOP did. Maybe they would be more open to doing better.

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      Credence2posted 2 months agoin reply to this

      I assume that you are addressing my comment.
      
      We have the questions as to why most of the Armed Services are not meeting their quotas. What has changed regarding the young people's assessment of the military as a choice in current times? How long can military recruitment fall short before some alternative is employed?
      
      I said that compensation is a big factor, the difference between this and other entry level jobs may not have been as stark in the past.

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   gmwilliamsposted 2 months ago

   The military will draw the poor/less educated/less fortunate.   Highly educated & the more affluent classes won't be drawn into the military.  Also, if there is a future draft, it will be the poor, less educated & otherwise less advantageous who will be drafted.   The more educated & more advantageous will find ways to avoid the draft as they have done when there was a military draft.   It is ALWAYS the poor, the disenfranchised, less educated, & otherwise less advantaged wiho will be used as military fodder, even disposable cannon fodder.

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      Readmikenowposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      "The military will draw the poor/less educated/less fortunate."
      
      Really?  Tell me about your experience in the military.
      
      When I was in the Army ALL the officers had to have a college degree.  It wasn't uncommon to meet officers who had masters degrees.  I even met a few who had PhDs. The officer corps are very well educated.  Then you have all the training required to perform your specialty.  Then there are follow up courses. The Army had many educational opportunities.
      
      As far as the enlisted people go, it's the same as those in any company who do work that doesn't require an education. Every enlisted person when I was in was required to have a GED or high school diploma.  Then they had to pass the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) test to get into the army.
      
      I hope you realize before a soldier is permitted to go into battle they will spend at least a year training for combat.  They will learn how to operate equipment, execute missions, etc.
      
      MANY people are turned away from military service because they lack the education or can't pass the ASVAB.  They may have a criminal record that will disqualify them.  Some have health issues that disqualify them and more.
      
      Then there are a number of people who get let go during boot camp, advanced training, etc.
      
      No, the US military is a professional military.  The "poor/less educated/less fortunate" won't make it unless they have at least a high school education,  have a clean criminal record and can pass the ASVAB and all of the necessary training.

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         Ken Burgessposted 2 months agoin reply to this

         Excellent reply.
         
         Fully support this statement, in regards to what the military was, as is the case with Mike, my experiences are from decades ago... no way of knowing how far it has fallen/degraded since then.
         
         I will add, the military educates you in ways far more valuable than any University Degree can.  You are forced to learn a great many things a University shelters you from.  If you take advantage of the Military, you will constantly be educated in new things, you will constantly travel and see new cultures and new countries, time in the military can be far more educational and rewarding than time spent in a College or University.
         
         I had experience going to college before I went into the Military, where I was exposed to ROTC which led me to 12 years of service.  Then I had experience going to college after those dozen years.
         
         I recognized that colleges/universities are filled with professors, more often than not, that are failures of the real world, that are limited in thought and experience, that are sheltered, ignorant, sometimes even tyrannical in their authority and ideologies.
         
         For every professor that was truly worth listening to, there were two or more that were delusional and should not be allowed to teach anything to anyone, IMO... I am sure the campuses have not gotten any better in that regard since I last attended.

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            Readmikenowposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            You were special forces and I'm sure many people washed out of that program.

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               Ken Burgessposted 2 months agoin reply to this

               Until they watered it down, so as to ensure they could get at least a few women through the selection process... which came after my time.
               
               When I went through, there was a class a few ahead of mine where soldiers actually died in the Florida phase.  The washout rate to a class back then could be as high as 90%.
               
               Getting your tab back then meant you were one tough, skilled, mean SOB.

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