A real conversation

1. 83

   Pcunixposted 14 years ago

   Conservative Friend "That idiot Obama makes MY taxes pay for the health care of illegal aliens"
   
   Me "That's not true"
   
   CF:  "Yes it is"
   
   Me:  "I think you are confused.  They can get emergency room care but that was true before the Health Bill"
   
   CF "My tax dollars pay for that!"
   
   Me:  "Yes, and they always have.   If we had any brains, we'd give them full medical care for free, not just emergency room care"
   
   CF:  "Are you crazy???"
   
   Me:  "Well, think about this.  Somebody goes for a free checkup or because they are mildly ill and we discover that they have a dangerous communicable disease or some disease that could be treated inexpensively now.  Do you want to pay for their treatment or send them away and let them infect more people or just get so sick they end up in the emergency room costing much more of your imaginary  tax dollars?"
   
   By the way:  I know this guy is retired and  works "under the table" for cash.  He pays no taxes.  That's why I said that.
   
   CF "It isn't right to treat them!"
   
   Me "Even if it costs less?"
   
   CF "I don't know.  But I don't want my tax dollars paying for illegal aliens health insurance!"
   
   Right.  This is why I cannot stand to talk to conservatives.  On every issue, it's the same thing:  you stretch the rubber band out oh so carefully and then they snap right back where they started from.
   
   I'm sick of it.  Maybe I should go to the ER.

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   1. 62

      Richard Craigposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think you should. lol 
      
      Is it true there is a law that states 'It's illegal to come into direct contact of ET life' ?

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      1. 83

         Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yes.   I think they passed that in Arizona.

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   2. 60

      Jim Hunterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Conservative Friend "That idiot Obama makes MY taxes pay for the health care of illegal aliens"
      
      Me "That's not true"
      
      CF:  "Yes it is"
      
      Jim
      Without specific legislation against illegals receiving health care at taxpayer expense it will occur.
      
      Me:  "I think you are confused.  They can get emergency room care but that was true before the Health Bill"
      
      CF "My tax dollars pay for that!"
      
      Me:  "Yes, and they always have
      
      Jim
      No they have not! Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act didn't become law until 1986, signed into law by Ronald Reagan. Since that time the cost of health care has gone up.
      
      Me:  "Well, think about this.  Somebody goes for a free checkup or because they are mildly ill and we discover that they have a dangerous communicable disease or some disease that could be treated inexpensively now.  Do you want to pay for their treatment or send them away and let them infect more people or just get so sick they end up in the emergency room costing much more of your imaginary  tax dollars?"
      
      Jim
      How often do you think that scenario plays out that way compared to how often the visit was unnecessary? When people perceive that health care is free they will use and abuse the health care system, it will do nothing but cost the taxpayer more. No matter how many times you and Obama claim it is free it is not.
      
      CF "It isn't right to treat them!"
      
      Me "Even if it costs less?"
      
      CF "I don't know.  But I don't want my tax dollars paying for illegal aliens health insurance!"
      
      Jim
      What would cost less is not treating them, the estimate of illegals in this country is what 12 Million? More? Lets say only 3 million use the health care system, how exactly did it cost less?
      
      Its not free and it never was.

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      1. 83

         Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Typical.
         
         We can't afford it.  How come all those other countries can and we can't?
         
         Delaying health care always costs more.  ER visits cost far more than doctor visits.  Nobody "abuses" health care.

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         1. 60

            Jim Hunterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Those other countries can't afford it.
            
            Health care is abused everyday, do you think every trip to an ER because of the flu is needed?
            
            Not providing health care to illegals cost less.
            
            The only thing 'typical' is the shilling for universal health care.

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            1. 60

               Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Ummm...have you been to the ER lately?  Other than the rare hypochondriac I think most people endure it because they need medical care.  If you have an HMO that is paid for by your employer, visits to the emergency room are close to free...yet it has not resulted in a great moral hazard.

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               1. 83

                  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Jim sees moral hazards everywhere.  Moral hazards and slippery slopes and monsters under the bed are what conservatives live by.

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               2. 69

                  Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  True. And ERs are the least efficient way to provide health care.

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         2. 70

            Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            pcunix, you obviously haven't worked in an ER or clinic , because I did and I can tell you there were a staggering amount of people who abuse the health care system.
            
            medicaid patients, would come in for so many things that were unecessary it was ridiculous.  Most things could be took care of with nothing more than a band-aid.
            
            The abuse of the health care for non necessary treatment is abundant.

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      2. 60

         Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         "Jim
         Without specific legislation against illegals receiving health care at taxpayer expense it will occur."
         
         SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
         
         Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
         
         What the hell do you want, Jimmy? It's IN THE LAW.

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      3. 60

         Joe Badtoeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Forgive m crazy optimism here but free healthcare is a right not a privilige and certainly not something that should ever be paid for outside of the tax that working folk pay. Those that can't work should never be excluded from healthcare irrespective of their plight. People are people not freaking numbers on a budget sheet. What is wrong with you?
         
         Would you step over an injured man if he looked like a down and out? Are you that kind of person? As for your argbument that free healthcare doesn't exist that's not correct is it? The UK has a free healthcare system which is being ripped apart by a new govt who 20 years ago introduced the ridiculous notion of placing Business Managers in hospitals on fat salaries and who despite asset stripping only added to the cost of running the hospital. It took  the recently evicted govt 12 years to try and sort this mess out and patient care has increased although how long this will last with a conservartive govt is anybody's guess.
         
         And why can Cubans get great healthcare yet the US has to put a dollar sign above every citizens head? Most people do not ask to be ill and accidents are not usually predicted.
         
         Private health is elitist and serves not to heal but to profit from people's illnesses and when a difficult operation is required who usually undertakes this task? The public health service (this is what occurs in the UK).
         
         I really will never understand why so many people n the US seem to be pro private healthcare and so against helping those less fortunate. I wonder how many people have died because of neglect?
         
         This is not an anti US rant by the way more an 'anti private health we're ok stuff the rest' rant.
         
         Jeez! we might as well be executioners if we base our principles on if you can pay we'll help you.

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   3. 0

      sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I am sick of it too but we cannot stop talking because people are reading and they need to know what is really going on.  It's the only chance we have since we don't really have any money to donate unlike the FOX owner who just donated a million bucks to the GOP with a very nauseating message to the dems and basically the poor and middle income folks. 
      
      In short, he say money rules and we will win because we are rich.  errrr!!!!!!!!!

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      1. 83

         Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         And isn't it special thst so many lower to mid income peole will vote with the rich.  They swallow everything these liars feed them.

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         1. 0

            sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I have to believe it is because they don't know that is why I think we just have to do better with letting them know what is really going on.
            
            If they knew, I don't believe there is anyway whatsoever that they would support them.  It just wouldn't make sense for them to vote themselves out. 
            
            Logical conclusion is they don't know.

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         2. 60

            KFlippinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Isn't it special  -- the fact that health insurance is already exorbitant, and has gone up and up even more the past year, and for just me and my husband it already costs enough to break us and we've dropped ours to nothing but catastrophic in anticipation of just what's happening, a rise in rates.  It's a choice, health care, a choice between budgeting for it, or eating out when you please and buying the latest shoe when you feel like it. It's not a right, nor should it be a penalty. 
            
            The corruption of the Commerce Clause in the health care bill--  will be the single greatest accomplishment of this administration, and is undoubtedly intended, because if it is found to stand judicially, the fed will tax the dust under your bed if it so chooses, as well as whatever someone chooses to swallow or chew or spit into a puddle of water, or breathe back into the global air.

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   4. 59

      pueblomanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I'm with you on this one Pcunix, and I don't care how big your nob is.

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2. 83

   Pcunixposted 14 years ago

   And by the way:  I love it when people who work under the table complain about their taxes being sucked away by welfare, boondoggle projects or anything else they can think of.  What taxes?

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3. 60

   lady_love158posted 14 years ago

   In MA after they passed universal health care, emergency room visits increased. Whether you provide illegals with insurance or not you will experience higher costs,

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   1. 83

      Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is half the story -
      
      ER visits increased because there were not enough doctors.  There were not enough because until people had insurance, they did not go anywhere.

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4. 59

   VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years ago

   This topic starts with the payment of health care for "illegal aliens" from tax payers' money.
   
   America itself was a new continent and everyone went there as "illegal aliens" only. The native Red Indians are totally forgotten. The English people went there, occupied it and made it as a country of their own. So, paying for medical bills for "illegal aliens" is not a sin for the "legal aliens". Let it be a charity expense.
   
   Better object to sending troops to Afganistan, Iraq and threatening small countries, which will cost a thousand times more for the tax payers. Better object to offering "aid" to terror-sponsoring countries. Then your objections will be purposeful.

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   1. 63

      Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We do object to those things. It wasn't the people who decided to go to war, it was our government of "representation."
      
      The issue of healthcare is a hot button everywhere. One of the problems in the US is how Americans eat compared with most of the rest of the world. We live on processed foods and we wonder why we're obese and unhealthy.
      
      There are no easy answers, one way or another.

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      1. 83

         Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Conservatives are ringing that "unconstitutional " bell frequently, but I doubt it will turn out that way.  Maybe in Glenn Beck Fantasy Land, sure.  In the real world, no.
         
         Y'all sang the same song when Federal income tax was introduced.  Some of you still try that one, and end up in jail every time.

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      2. 59

         VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Your former President G.W.Bush said once "Indians eat more".  Who prevented you to eat less?  Take your food as you like; dont look at others while you or they are eating. 
         
         The only thing that a human being says "enough.... no more" is eating food only.  No one can eat more than required.  So, eat what you require. Dont  look at others to see how much they eat.

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   2. 60

      KFlippinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I very much respect your opinions, and always read with interest your posts; however, if you applied your reasoning to just about any country on this earth -- it would apply, if it were rational and reasonable -- and this time I don't agree.
      
      It is all well and good to hark back to America as a melting pot of many cultures, but the reality is we are all grown up now, and the reality is that those aliens from other countries back in the day, came here pretty much legally, and contributed their sweat and their dollars just like everybody else.  Different America now, we are grown up and busting our budget at the seams.  Someone coming here should have to have a work visa, etc... and live by our laws.

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5. 57

   C.J. Wrightposted 14 years ago

   Well, lets look at this more logically.
   
   First, your right, even before the "Health Care Bill" anyone could march into an Emergency Room and be treated. Still is today...nothing has changed.
   
   Second, the idea that some one is here undocumented means they pay 0 federal taxes. Your "CF" may not be very articulate, let me take a crack at it...for the record I'm a liberterian.....
   Medical Care is NOT a RIGHT. The fed covers the "General Welfare" clause via vacinations and other programs directed at public health... Everyone should pay SOMETHING. If it's going to be legislated and funded via taxes, that means only those who pay taxes are entitled.(or should be) You don't have to agree....its an idea.
   
   Yes, I suspect many are coming here with dangerous and or communicable diseases. Take a look at the spike in TB and Whooping Cough in California, Arizona, etc.
   
   
   Finally another argument I hear a lot is that the undocumented worker is only taking jobs "Americans" don't want or wont do.
   If that's the case and we are so concerned about their welfare, why not go after these American Farmers that take such mean advanted of them??? I mean we know that's what happens right? They employ them, pay next to nothing and leave them to sleep in the fields until the crops are completely harvested. It happens all the time in  California, Arizona, etc.

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      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Those American farmer may think that it is a low job, for which their prestige would not let them do. 
      
      If those undocumented worker does so much work with so much devotion and so less wage, why not he be documented immediately?
      
      If anyone comes to America with chronic diseases, he should be sent to the hospital and prohibited from working anywhere, till he gets fit.  Better he may be handed over to the respective country's High Commission.

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   2. 83

      Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Many undocumented do pay taxes.  They have fake ss numbers and payroll taxes are deducted. They just never get any refunds.

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      1. 57

         C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Those that do, are getting bennies, I would bet. You can't fake an SSN now days. It would be more correct to say, STOLEN SSN's or using the ssn of an "Anchor Baby".

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         1. 83

            Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Stolen is fake.  It doesn't belong to them, they will never be able to claim benefits from it.

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            1. 57

               C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No, stolen means its a legitimate identity in hands of someone other than whom it belongs. Fake means one that's made up, like an SSN that has 00 or 99 as its middle two digits.
               Its called identity theft, I'm sure youve heard of it. Yes people get benefits with them.

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               1. 69

                  Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Most of them don't stick around to collect Social Security benefits.

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                  1. 57

                     C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Agreed, however Social Security isn't the only entitlement system out there.

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   3. 60

      William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It really depends on the worker.  A great many "undocumented" workers actually do have documents, they are just fake.  As long as the employer is playing by the book and paying payroll taxes, the worker is having taxes withheld from their checks.  If they are working for cash under the table only,  then that is a different story and we should go after the folks hiring them. 
      
      
      
      
      All the more reason to treat them, so the diseases aren't spread.  There's a reason we don't have TB and Whooping cough in America - it's because our population has access to immunizations, medical treatement, and good sanitation infrastructure.  An ounce of prevention etc.

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      1. 83

         Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No point.  Jim hates paying for anyone else so much he'd rather risk an epidemic.

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         1. 60

            Jim Hunterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            That's the only alternative?
            
            Not sending them back to the country they came from would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?
            
            By all means crack down on the employers who hire illegals, I don't care if they are conservative or liberal.
            
            Of course enforcing the law to you means arresting republicans.
            
            Gotta love liberals.

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            1. 83

               Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Sure, that makes sense.   Let's build a big wall and let Mexico sink farther into poverty and crime.
               
               Then later, we can have a war!  That will be peachy, cuz I know how you conservatives just love wars - you must, because you start so many of them!
               
               Do you have ANY grasp of history, Jim?  Do you know WHY the barbarians were at the gates of Rome?

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               1. 54

                  TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  It is not our responsibility to "heal the world" as you would like to do. This is why we are in such a mess to begin with. If we let illegal mexicans in, why not let every other illegal immigrant in? Why do you think it's our responsibility to fix Mexico?

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                  1. 60

                     Joe Badtoeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     TruthDEbater
                     
                     It's not the US's responsibility to bomb countries thousands of miles away but it did it.  Who built the US by the way? Was it home grown first generation Americans or was it millions of immigrants?
                     
                     If you trace the heritage of most of the US presidents there will be a link to an immigrant.
                     
                     Hell we're all immigrants I come from Viking Stock via Africa should I pack my bag?
                     
                     Come the revolution Truth D you might want to change your clothes!!

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                     1. 54

                        TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Thanks. I didn't say it was our responsibility to fight everyone either.
                        
                        There is a difference between legal immigrants that pay taxes and illegal immigrants that have legals pay their share of the taxes. Why do I need to change my clothes and how do you know what i'm wearing?

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            2. 60

               Joe Badtoeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Jim Hunter
               
               I'm assuming you're in a healthy position with your body and your wallet? Do you object to people less fortunate than you being given free healthcare?
               
               if yes why? I don't want a long financial justification I just want your own personal take on this as a human being.
               
               PS what do you do with the Jims you catch? (that was a joke albeit a bad one!)

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               1. 54

                  TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Thanks. Do I object to free health care to illegal immigrants and those able to work and provide their own private health care, yep, but it is already being done, thats one of the reasons we are in debt, because our hospitals don't deny people treatment without insurance. If people are able, I think they should support themselves, if legal and unable, I think they should be helped.

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      2. 57

         C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         When a person uses a "FAKE" id for employment and it's reported to the IRS via a W4, the employer finds out...I.E. it's not accepted.
         
         "There's a reason we don't have TB and Whooping cough in America - it's because our population has access to immunizations, medical treatement, and good sanitation infrastructure. An ounce of prevention etc."
         
         You make that sound like it doesn't cost anything.....wow. In case your wondering, YES, I believe we should turn away sickly immigrants.

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   4. 69

      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Many undocumented workers pay taxes through payroll deductions just like anyone else. They subsidize Social Security to the tune of $6 billion a year and aren't eligible for benefits.
      
      http://diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/2647/

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      1. 60

         Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         On the one hand, I commend you for supplying facts.
         
         But if you are the kind of person who can look UP to Beck and Limbaugh, you're so far down on the intellectual food chain there's not much hope that facts will matter.

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6. 59

   VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years ago

   It is being insisted here that those not paying taxes are not entitled to any sops like free medical care or jobs, etc. They say their tax money goes to illegal aliens for their medical expenses.
   
   Are they aware that a large financial aid is being given to Pakistan for their survival, inspite of knowing well that Pakistan protects, patronises terrorist groups  at the expense of American tax payers' money?  Are they aware that Pakistan's military directly supports and trains terrorist groups with American aid?

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   1. 73

      earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Do you have proof of that or any plausible links? I would hope that is not happening.

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7. 58

   rlaframboiseposted 14 years ago

   Somebody goes to a check up for free.
   Dr. doesn't perform 800 medical exams for every ailment.
   Free health care recipient sues Dr.
   Health care costs increase.
   
   or more likely simple economics prove that you cant provide more care for cheaper while the number of Dr.'s remains the same?
   
   The entire bill should have focused on the insurance companies, the pharmaceuticals, tort reform and the ridiculous lobbying that drives costs through the roof.
   
   The bill, as written, does nothing to reduce costs or solve the problems currently facing the system.
   
   And more importantly it is unconstitutional to force an American citizen to buy a product.
   
   If this precedent is set it will be dangerous to liberty in the future.

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8. 82

   rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago

   many do, not all of us!
   
   I saw a little girl about 7 yesterday in the mall walking behind her overweight adults, drinking a starbucks frappacino with the whip cream 4 inches thick.. a little girl was on her way to obesity at 7 years old! [she was already overweight]
   and I would say most of those who are obese realize why. 
   if people decided to eat healthier, there would be less need for doctor visits and prescription medication. even some of the medications cause weight gain.

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9. 83

   Pcunixposted 14 years ago

   Of course if we cracked down on the people deliberately hiring illegals, we'd likely be putting a lot of conservatives in jail, and we can't have that.  Just a guess, but I bet it would be deadly accurate.

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10. 84

    Jane Bovaryposted 14 years ago

    Abundant? I find that hard to believe. It just doesn't make sense that someone would choose to wait around in a terminally boring emergency room or clinic unless they thought they really needed to be there.In Australia the average wait in an emergency room is 2 to six hours...NO-ONE goes just for the hell of it.
    
    I agree with the opening poster that a good selfish argument [for those who require it] can be made for treating illegal immigrants/and universal healthcare. Communicable  diseases don't discriminate between rich and poor...citizen and non citizen.

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    1. 57

       C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Go to your local emergency rooms on Sunday/Monday. It's the WORST.

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          Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It is terrible.  That is why it is not credible...this  scenario of people recreationally going to an emergency room because of the moral hazard of providing inexpensive medical care.  Many Americans get medical care paid for by their employer.  If they have an HMO with a $20 co-pay, a trip to the emergency room is practically free. Then they get to wait for 2-6 hours.  This person works for a living and has earned the health insurance but in a day-to-day sense they can go to the emergency room for free.  Indeed, given that they have already paid for the medical care by virtue of agreeing to work, they have a strong incentive to take fun trips to the emergency room all the time...  I would never go to an emergency room for fun, nor, do I think, do most employees that have an employer-sponsored medical plan.  For some reason, however, there is suspicion that if funding for health insurance comes from the public sector, emergency rooms will become fun again.

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             C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Most people's medical care is NOT paid for by their employers. It's a shared cost. I'm not suspicious of "recreational" ER visitors. My concern is simply this. Illegals flood ER's in certain areas. Under the new plan it's cheaper to pay the penalty than to get insurance. There again it's off to the ER. Your area may be fine. Pick a city with a large percentage of poor and it's horrible.

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                Sylvie Strongposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Whether it is shared, or whether the employer pays for all of it is irrelevant, isn't it?  Either way the employee is paying through service.  The issue is that from a practical standpoint you can use the emergency room all you want without paying money for it.  You can also choose not use the emergency room and you will still work the same amount every month (and make the same health care payment if it is shared).  I recognize that your point seems to be a different one so I think I'm getting us off topic.

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             2. 0

                sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Where do you come up with such misguided information? Do you even know how the government plans to get people insured? 
                
                It might help you to understand that the plan included tax breaks to small businesses to help insure their employees and tax credits for people who do not have insurance through work.

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11. 93

    Susana Sposted 14 years ago

    I was just about to make a similar comment Joe. It isn't about money or taxes - it's about humanity. No I would not step over someone who needed help. I wouldn't ask them which country they were born in before I helped them either.
    
    If someone is ill or has an accident or is in labour I don't care who they are or where they were born - they need treatment. And I'm quite happy to pay a few extra pounds on my taxes to cover it.

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12. 61

    Evan G Rogersposted 14 years ago

    is it really so hard to understand that no civilization anywhere ever has considered the ability to steal from your neighbor a right?

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13. 81

    BDazzlerposted 14 years ago

    Hell, I don't want my tax dollars paying for my health care let alone yours.  I don't care if you're illegal or not.
    
    I think if we cut out the frivolous law suits, (i.e. tort reform) malpractice insurance would go down. Unnecessary CYA tests would be eliminated and doctors could actually worry about their patients rather than government compliance or getting sued.
    
    Since health care costs would be lower, insurance would be lower and we wouldn't be paying bureaucrats to make everything more expensive.
    
    And I frankly don't care whether the bureaucrats are paid by government or private industry ... "more bureaucracy" is not a good thing.
    
    Are there some good things in this package? Like covering kids? Sure. But these could have been passed without the trillion dollar comprehensiveness.
    
    Bashing conservatives and republicans is pretty pointless. With a filibuster proof majority and a liberal in the white house, there is nothing the republicans can do.
    
    We have a one party system right now.  This has happened before in Germany in the late 20s and early 30s and Russia/the Soviet union. Didn't work out all that well.
    
    With one party there are no "checks and balances".  All an opponent can do is complain.
    
    I may not be willing to fight for much, but I'll sure as hell fight for my right to bitch and moan about whatever I want to bitch and moan about.
    
    I'll also fight for your right to bitch and moan.  Because bitchin and moanin make this country great!
    
    Even when everybody except me is wrong.  Like most of the time.

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       sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       OMG BDaz, you have to be kidding me.  A one party system has been running the white house for how long now?  The assumption that the Democrats are doing whatever they want is not an accurate description since the republican's continuously 'filibuster' nearly everything the Obama administration is trying to do.
       
       You want to talk about an abuse of power, talk about the party you seem to favor that is completely disregarding the general interest of public safety, civil rights, HELL they don't even care about people's Constitutional rights and are very committed to getting their way and their way only.
       
       What is really bothering me about your position is that you say you love me but you are willing to allow the Republicans to take away certain freedoms like religion, or IDK my citizenship because you it's suites your idea of what is best for me.
       
       I get to choose what is best for me, you do not get to choose what is best for me.  You call yourself a Christian.  You say that you care but YOU are willing to sacrifice my rights for your ideals which over time become more hypocritical then I ever conceived possible from you.
       
       You do not love me, you do not care about my family, you don't seem to care about what is going on in the 'real' world and what kind of politics you are supporting. 
       
       But whatever, you support a party that believes it is okay to take away people's rights and that is not right.

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       1. 81

          BDazzlerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It was wrong with a one party system then, too. Sandy.  You seem to think I'm all in favor of dumping all democrats and keeping all republicans.
          
          I'm against "big government" ... and republicans are just as guilty as democrats on the issue.  They just put it some place else.  Wrong is wrong, no matter who it helps.
          
          More bureaucracy is bad no matter who's party it comes from.
          
          This is the point nobody seems to get.  Pointing at "them" (whether "they" are republican or democrat) is pointless. Jumping up and down and looking for someone to blame is a "bad thing".
          
          As far as the rest of it goes.  You know better. And if you think that because I have a different opinion than you that I don't care about you or your family, then you really don't understand what I'm saying.  I'm against "big government" because I do care about you and your family.
          
          P.S. "Jim" should see this.  If he thinks I always agree with you no matter what. LOL

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       2. 61

          Evan G Rogersposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          upholding the constitution (at least in some way shape or form) even if it is only in select times and select ways, will never be "an abuse of power" that "disregard[s] the general interest of public safety, civil rights".
          
          As much as I hate the 2 party system, and I hate both parties... the republicans ARE upholding the constitution in these situations.
          
          Federal Health Care, Stimulus Packages, and all of these things are ALL unconstitutional via the 10th amendment.

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